Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:05 AM - Re: Re: fuel flow for CH701 (Peter Thomson)
2. 03:49 AM - Re: 801 wing root rib (John Swartout)
3. 04:23 AM - Leaking 801 flap motor gear box (John Swartout)
4. 05:43 AM - Re: fuel flow for CH701 (Larry)
5. 05:47 AM - Re: fuel flow for CH701 (Larry)
6. 06:38 AM - Re: Leaking 801 flap motor gear box (n85ae)
7. 05:09 PM - Re: fuel flow for CH701 (jetboy)
8. 06:09 PM - Re: Re: fuel flow for CH701 (NYTerminat@aol.com)
9. 07:37 PM - Re: Re: fuel flow for CH701 (Mark Sherman)
10. 07:54 PM - Re: Re: fuel flow for CH701 (NYTerminat@aol.com)
11. 08:05 PM - Re: Re: fuel flow for CH701 (Craig Payne)
12. 08:16 PM - Re: Re: fuel flow for CH701 (Les Goldner)
13. 09:21 PM - Re: 701 vent line (Dave and Pam Fisher)
14. 09:57 PM - Re: Re: 701 vent line (Curt Thompson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Re: fuel flow for CH701 |
Ben
my 701 has the same swirl but it is the right tank which drains first...
Why may only by known by the Great Gull :)
Peter
701/912ULS
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| Subject: | Re: 801 wing root rib |
Dear Ben,
You are absolutely correct to nitpick about millimeters in this issue.
I had a related problem on my 801 which I purchased about 9 years ago
(serial # 6). The left wing root rib had the wrong angle on the rear
flange, resulting in about a 5 degree twist between #1 rib and the root
rib. As I'd never built an airplane before, I didn't know that the rear
spar should be straight--no twists and no bends--it's full length. I
installed it as it was. When I built the right wing, the root rib was
correct, which provoked me to ask ZAC about the first one. They insisted it
was impossible that that root rib could have the wrong angle, as all those
root ribs are made on the same form. (Don't get me started.) Bottom
line: The rear spar should not bend or twist. Finally Roger said the
simple fix is to cut off the offending flange and rivet onto the rib another
piece of aluminum with a flange set to the correct angle--the angle that
matches the other ribs.
To try to answer your specific questions:
1. The rear flange of the root rib is parallel to the rest of the ribs, and
in the same plane.
2. My plane is 20 miles from here right now, but I seem to recall that the
root rib rivets to the rear spar doubler, which would mean it is about 3mm
shorter than the other ribs. Although when you build the cabin, you will
be able to adjust the distance between the main and rear spar attach points
slightly, you would be well advised to make sure your main and rear spars
are EXACTLY the correct distance apart at the root end (look ahead in the
instructions and find the template for setting the length of the top
outboard tubes of the cabin frame--which determines how far apart the main
and rear attach points will be) and EXACTLY the same on the left and right
wings.
3. Further depending on my memory, it seems to me there was one row
of rivets in the rear spar doubler outboard of where the root rib rivets to
the spar. I will see my plane later today and will confirm or correct
this statement this evening.
John Swartout
On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 10:54 PM, bcchurch <bcchurch@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I'm working on the right wing and ran into a problem with the root rib.
> When I locate the root rib, the rear spar deflects rearward 6 or 7 mm. The
> distance between the main spar and rear spar at all of the rear wing ribs is
> 820 mm. At the root rib, I get 827 mm. Now, the IB bottom skin is 820 mm
> wide which tells me that all the ribs are looking good except for the root
> rib.
>
> I'm discussing the issue with Caleb but wanted to ask some of the 801
> builders here a few questions:
> 1) is the root rib parallel to the other rear wing ribs?
> 2) is the root rib the same length as the other rear wing ribs?
> 3) does the root rib join the rear spar at the 1st or 2nd row of
> pre-drilled holes in the rear spar? (My pre-drilled skin tells me the first
> row in the rear spar is correct).
>
> Without your parts in front of you, I realize it's a pretty small detail
> and probably hard to answer. I've attached an excel file with some
> measurements and notes to help describe my problem.
>
> I suppose there are some that would say I'm nit-picking over a few mm.
> But, when I get that root rib in place I really see a curve in the rear
> spar between the root and station 1 and I just don't like that.
>
> Thanks,
> Ben
>
> --------
> Ben Church
> CH801
> Racine, WI
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4883#204883
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/wing_177.xls
>
>
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| Subject: | Leaking 801 flap motor gear box |
Dear Listers:
I received my flap motor assembly, made by Commercial Aircraft Products of
Wichita, KS (model # D145-00-36-3) from ZAC about 5 years ago. It sat in
the box for a couple of years until I got ready to install it, and I then
discovered it had leaked quite a lot of oil--I'd guess a couple of
tablespoons. After I installed it, it has continued to leak oil for a
couple more years, staining the cabin floor and creeping back beneath the
rear seat. I discussed the leak with ZAC when I discovered it. They didn't
think it was anything to worry about (i.e. they were not eager to replace it
without some proven defect).
The leaking has subsided--most likely because almost all of the oil has
already leaked out. Well, I'm going to fly the airplane in a few months,
and this apparent defect has been bothering me for quite a while. So I
talked to a technician at Commercial Aircraft Products about it. He said it
is possible that the gear box could leak, but it really shouldn't unless
subjected to heat/stress/etc. He also said that he has overhauled these
units that have been use in the field for 15 years, have no oil in them, and
they still work. A leak could be due to a poorly seated seal around the
motor shaft, a bad seal at the jackscrew shaft, or debris compromising a
seal, or a cracked housing. He suggested I ask ZAC for a replacement if I
am concerned about it. So that's what I did.
ZAC returned the same unit to me, saying they "could find nothing wrong with
the flap motor."
A casual inspection would reveal that the motor runs and the gear box does
not appear to leak. That does not mean it isn't defective. It doesn't leak
because it's been leaking for 5 years and there's nothing left to leak out.
I am about to disassemble the gear box, re-install the jackscrew seal with a
gasket sealer, and refill the gearbox with lubricant. ZAC told me I cannot
get replacement parts for these units, so if I make any errors, I'm stuck
with a $600 boat anchor. I shouldn't have to do this, but I don't want to
install a defective motor into a new airplane.
I would like to know if others have had any similar experiences with these
flap motor gearboxes leaking oil.
John
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow for CH701 |
No, the more vents you have the better. They do on occasion get stopped
up with bugs, trash, etc. If you only have one you are asking for
trouble, not a matter of if, when. Larry, N1345L
Ken Ryan wrote:
>
> Let's say each fuel cap is vented to the outside air. Wouldn't that be the
> same as tieing them together with a vent line? What would make tying them
> together with a vent line better than just having two vented fuel caps?
>
>
> On 17 Sep 2008 at 15:42, bob wrote:
>
>
>> The best way to minimize the pressure difference is to have a common vent line
that connects the two tanks together above the fuel level.
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow for CH701 |
That's correct. I have four tanks, each vents with tubes to the bottom
of the wing. Vent caps can be trouble as you point out, plus water can
get in. Larry, N1345L
n801bh@netzero.com wrote:
> I started with the Zenith supplied vent caps. The 801 has such a massive amount
of lift the low pressure area above the wing will suck out fuel through the
vented caps if I have anything more then 7/8 full tanks of fuel. One my first
flight it stained the top of the right wing, yeah, I used Dupont Imron aircraft
paint @ 300.00 + a gallon too. Boy, was I pissed and I even stopped at the
Dupont booth at Osk and explained my problem. Those guys said , " yup, 100LL
blue dye will stain the paint". So much for aircraft grade crap !!! I epoxied
up my caps and that fixed that issue. I also have aux vents that protrude below
the wings with the front of those tubes cut at an angle.
>
>
> Ben Haas
> N801BH
> www.haaspowerair.com
>
> -- "Ken Ryan" <kenryan@alaska.net> wrote:
>
> Let's say each fuel cap is vented to the outside air. Wouldn't that be the
> same as tieing them together with a vent line? What would make tying them
> together with a vent line better than just having two vented fuel caps?
>
>
> On 17 Sep 2008 at 15:42, bob wrote:
>
>
>> The best way to minimize the pressure difference is to have a common vent line
that connects the two tanks together above the fuel level.
>>
>
>
> ===================================
> ===================================
> ===================================
> ===================================
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Planning for retirement? Click for free information on 401(k) plans.
> http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/Ioyw6i4tFiz4AoJzxobbaYH2bO0BUjTrVR6Xj2hVYPSDSlQuDrfB6y/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Leaking 801 flap motor gear box |
Once you get the seal out, you should be able to find a replacement
at McMaster Carr. Just measure it, and look through their catalog for
a dimensionally equivelant part. http://www.mcmaster.com
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4910#204910
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow for CH701 |
The CZAW kits came with non vented caps that have a 60mm high gooseneck tube welded
onto the cap with the opening facing downwards and forward, end of the tube
is also cut at an angle so appears elliptical.
I've had no problems with these, much easier than adding crossfeed venting, although
I have an andair selector valve fitted between the seat backrest and usually
feed one at a time
Ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4997#204997
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow for CH701 |
Someone want to fabricate these fuel caps for a retrofit? I would buy a set.
Bob Spudis
In a message dated 9/18/2008 8:10:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sanson.r@x
tra.co.nz writes:
The CZAW kits came with non vented caps that have a 60mm high gooseneck tube
welded onto the cap with the opening facing downwards and forward, end of
the tube is also cut at an angle so appears elliptical.
I've had no problems with these, much easier than adding crossfeed venting,
although I have an andair selector valve fitted between the seat backrest and
usually feed one at a time
Ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow for CH701 |
Bob.
Look at a Wag-Aero catalog. They have them.
Mark S.
701/912ULS
----- Original Message -----
From: NYTerminat@aol.com
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: fuel flow for CH701
Someone want to fabricate these fuel caps for a retrofit? I would buy
a set.
Bob Spudis
In a message dated 9/18/2008 8:10:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
sanson.r@xtra.co.nz writes:
The CZAW kits came with non vented caps that have a 60mm high
gooseneck tube welded onto the cap with the opening facing downwards and
forward, end of the tube is also cut at an angle so appears elliptical.
I've had no problems with these, much easier than adding crossfeed
venting, although I have an andair selector valve fitted between the
seat backrest and usually feed one at a time
Ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges?
Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and
calculators.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
9/18/2008 5:03 PM
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow for CH701 |
Thanks Mark, just looked online, couldn't find the cap with the pressure
tube built in. Do you have a part number?
Bob
In a message dated 9/18/2008 10:37:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
n752ms@softcom.net writes:
Bob.
Look at a Wag-Aero catalog. They have them.
Mark S.
701/912ULS
----- Original Message -----
From: _NYTerminat@aol.com_ (mailto:NYTerminat@aol.com)
(mailto:zenith701801-list@matronics.com)
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: fuel flow for CH701
Someone want to fabricate these fuel caps for a retrofit? I would buy a set.
Bob Spudis
**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial
challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and
calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow for CH701 |
Aircraft Spruce 05-03458 might work if you bent the tube down farther. Kind
of expensive at $100. It's described as "Fuel Cap PA-12 thru PA-18 with
180HP Engine"
-- Craig
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow for CH701 |
Mark S,
I looked at the Wag-Aero catalog on-line and couldn't find a high gooseneck
tube welded onto a cap. I have reproduced their fuel cap catalog below. Can
you tell me which item from Wag-Aero to purchase?
Les
Products Manufacturer Model SKU Price
<http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id=14150> Flange
Vented Fuel Cap
<http://store.wagaero.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=0>
E-482-000 $5.75
<http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id=14151>
Homebuilder's Fuel Tank Parts, Aluminum Weldable Neck
<http://store.wagaero.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=0>
E-448-000 $6.85
<http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id=1916> Flange
Vented Fuel Cap
<http://store.wagaero.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=0>
E-482-000 $5.75
<http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id=1918> Pressure
Fuel Cap, Aerobatic
<http://store.wagaero.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=0> 55010-3
E-333-000 $27.25
<http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id=1923> Piper Fuel
Cap PA-24, FAA/PMA'd
<http://store.wagaero.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=0> 21821
E-333-100 $89.50
<http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id=1925> Piper Fuel
Cap PA-24, 30, 39, FAA/PMA'd
<http://store.wagaero.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=3> Piper 27221
E-333-200 $112.75
<http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id=1926> Piper Fuel
Cap PA-23, FAA/PMA'd
<http://store.wagaero.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=0> 17672
E-333-300 $124.60
<http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id=1928> Piper Fuel
Cap PA-23, FAA/PMA'd
<http://store.wagaero.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=0> 16097
E-333-400 $102.50
<http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id=1956>
Homebuilder's Fuel Tank Parts, Aluminum Weldable Neck
<http://store.wagaero.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=0>
E-448-000 $6.85
<http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id=1958>
Homebuilder's Fuel Tank Parts, Aluminum Filler Neck
<http://store.wagaero.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=0>
E-324-000 $13.70
<http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id 05> Aeronca Wing
Kit <http://store.wagaero.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=45> Aeronca
E-476-000 $768.00
<http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id 08> Aerobatic
Header Tank <http://store.wagaero.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=0>
E-475-100 $252.75
<http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id=3943> Fuel System
Kit <http://store.wagaero.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=7> Wag-Aero
W-014-000 $1,460.00
<http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id69> Luscombe
Fuel Tank, LH 11.5 Gallon
<http://store.wagaero.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=65> Luscombe
E-473-002 $575.00
<http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id70> Luscombe
Fuel Tank, RH 11.5 Gallon
<http://store.wagaero.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=65> Luscombe
E-473-001 $575.00
<http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id=9294> GATS Jar
Fuel Tester <http://store.wagaero.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=0>
G-781-000 $22.95
<http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id=12848> Non-Vented
Fuel Cap <http://store.wagaero.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=45>
Aeronca 1-2593-2 125932 $12.86
_____
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Sherman
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: fuel flow for CH701
Bob.
Look at a Wag-Aero catalog. They have them.
Mark S.
701/912ULS
----- Original Message -----
From: NYTerminat@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: fuel flow for CH701
Someone want to fabricate these fuel caps for a retrofit? I would buy a set.
Bob Spudis
In a message dated 9/18/2008 8:10:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
sanson.r@xtra.co.nz writes:
The CZAW kits came with non vented caps that have a 60mm high gooseneck tube
welded onto the cap with the opening facing downwards and forward, end of
the tube is also cut at an angle so appears elliptical.
I've had no problems with these, much easier than adding crossfeed venting,
although I have an andair selector valve fitted between the seat backrest
and usually feed one at a time
Ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
_____
Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check
out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
_____
- - Release Date: 9/18/2008 5:03 PM
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| Subject: | Re: 701 vent line |
Curt wrote:
>Is there a way to route that
>line between the tanks without any dips or is there a way to keep fuel out?
Hi Curt and list,
I'm still building so I can't swear it will work but I plan to vent my
tanks from the top of each tank to forward facing vents under the wings
with a cross vent just inside the lower wing skin which goes straight
across through the top of the cabin to the other under wing vent - no low
spots. (Is this how you did it, Ben?) If a little fuel happens to get in
the cross vent line it should be purged out the under wing vent having the
lowest pressure. I expect that there will be a little pressure
differential between vents due to prop rotation and the way the airflow
swirls around the fuselage. I hope the cross vent will equalize this
pressure difference so the tanks will see equal pressure . ( vented fuel
caps see different pressures for the same reason, mine are non
vented). I'm also putting individual cut off valves on each tank in case
they don't feed evenly.
Thanks for the interesting thread,
Dave Fisher, Perennial scrap builder, 701 with A-80-8 Continental
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 701 vent line |
If you have a low spot and it gets fuel sloshed into it, this is what I
think will happen. Let's say the tube bows down for 6 inches and then back
up to the other tank. Now let's say that the tube is completely full of
fuel. As you blow air into one side, the air pressure barely starts to
build, a little fuel will be forced out of the tube. If you apply just a
little pressure (say 1 inch fuel pressure) and stop then you will force the
air down the tube for about 1 inch of elevation and the level will stop - an
equal amount of fuel will be displaced and dribble out the other side. If
you blow in 2 inches of pressure and stop, then the fuel level will drop to
2 inches and stop - more fuel will dribble out. Eventually, when you blow
in 6 inches of pressure, the air in the tube will start to bubble out the
other side. The air will just bubble up through the tube that is half full
of fuel. No more fuel will dribble out of the tube. But you will have to
maintain 6 inches of head pressure to keep the fuel forced up the other side
of the tube. If you release the pressure, the fuel just settles back down
to the bottom of the tube. To get more air to vent from one tank to the
other you are going to have to apply 6 inches of pressure.
Am I thinking about this wrong?
Curt
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave and
Pam Fisher
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 8:49 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 vent line
<dpfisher@scottsbluff.net>
Curt wrote:
>Is there a way to route that
>line between the tanks without any dips or is there a way to keep fuel out?
Hi Curt and list,
I'm still building so I can't swear it will work but I plan to vent my
tanks from the top of each tank to forward facing vents under the wings
with a cross vent just inside the lower wing skin which goes straight
across through the top of the cabin to the other under wing vent - no low
spots. (Is this how you did it, Ben?) If a little fuel happens to get in
the cross vent line it should be purged out the under wing vent having the
lowest pressure. I expect that there will be a little pressure
differential between vents due to prop rotation and the way the airflow
swirls around the fuselage. I hope the cross vent will equalize this
pressure difference so the tanks will see equal pressure . ( vented fuel
caps see different pressures for the same reason, mine are non
vented). I'm also putting individual cut off valves on each tank in case
they don't feed evenly.
Thanks for the interesting thread,
Dave Fisher, Perennial scrap builder, 701 with A-80-8 Continental
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