Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:57 AM - Re: Carburetor Ice? (jetboy)
2. 04:06 AM - Re: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (n801bh@netzero.com)
3. 04:10 AM - Re: Carburetor Ice? (MacDonald Doug)
4. 04:33 AM - Re: Carburetor Ice? ()
5. 04:44 AM - Re: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (Gordon)
6. 06:05 AM - Re: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (BokKat)
7. 06:37 AM - Re: Carburetor Ice? (mcolbeck)
8. 10:12 AM - carburetor Ice? (Alvin Rose)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Carburetor Ice? |
Alvin,
What you describe is not the usual carb ice symptoms although with 2 carbs
it could manifest that way.
I have had a power loss 6 times now which first thought was carb ice but now certain
caused by steep descent or unbalanced attitudes causing unporting of the
fuel feed. On separate occasions during ground running above damp grass I've
had carb ice and cleared it with carb ht. then let it occur again and clear again
just to confirm. My engine is a 2200 however it uses the same model of carb
as the 912 and although I see many not fitting a heat system its proved necessary
for me.
Ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6261#206261
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions |
I guess this is a rather dumb question but,,,, Didnt you put the plane o
n scales after all your mods and just before the first flight to run the
CG numbers?
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "BokKat" <bobkat@btinet.net> wrote:
=EF=BB I had my BRS mounted similarly to where your is, only on the f
ront side of the firewall. The DAR warned me that the CG would be too f
ar back, and although the plane was well built and perfectly safe in eve
ry other way, he insisted that the BRS be taken out and weight added for
ward before the first flight! Being stupid and stubborn, I thought I kn
ew better and flew it like that, and though I hate to admit it, I almost
paid a heavy price for doing so! The plane was almost uncontrolable at
low speed, and I finally got it on the ground, but when it slowed durin
g the flare the nose took off like a homesick angel and then slammed dow
n on the turf, flattening the front fork. I made several passes at the
runway, using every bit of skill I had gleaned from 3,000+ hours of flyi
ng everything from ultralights on up. When it slowed down the nose rais
ed, the tail dropped and it became so sluggish it was virtually uncontro
llable! Very unsafe, at least in my airplane!I now have it mounted imme
diately behind the pilot/copilot seats, so that one can use it as a hea
d rest. I also moved the battery forward to the front of the firewall t
o try to move the seriously aft CG forward. Now it flies OK, but I'd be
really concerned about the placement of your BRS! The only thing I had
changed in the tail to move the CG backward was X braces made of L angl
e aluminum as an anti-oil-canning thing, but this probably wasn't of too
much consequence. Basically the placement of my "safety" chute almost
became a "killer" chute. I hate to admit how stupid and arrogant I was
regarding the CG, but if it saves someone else from making the same mist
ake, what the heck........What was unsafe in my plane MIGHT be safe in y
ours, but be very very careful! If you keep it like tht, be awfully sur
e of your weights and your calculations regarding the CG! ----- Origina
l Message ----- From: Les Goldner To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Se
nt: Monday, September 22, 2008 9:11 PMSubject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re
: After 5 hours flight time, questions
Thanks guys for the advice regarding sending pics through matronics.I ha
ve attached two pictures taken during the construction of N67MG that sho
w the reinforcement to the baggage compartment back wall used to support
my BRS chute. The reinforcement consists of some big gussets with Ls on
their sides, and horizontal Ls top and bottom. The heavy vertical Ls cl
ose to the center hold the chute.Also, see the full-height cargo door on
the pilot side of the compartment in the pictures. I can get my 20# fol
ding bike through this door and have cargo nets forward of the door so n
othing heavy falls to the back.Rgds,
Les
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith7
01801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 1:57 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions
The file and photo share is fine (but takes time) if you want the item t
o stay around forever. But for one-offs you can also just attach =9C
reasonable=9D sized files to your posts.<?xml:namespace prefix =
o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith7
01801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randall J. Hebert
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 2:43 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions
Do Not Archive
This is from the list FAQ
There is more there but this should help get you started
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pict
ures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submi
ssion:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Randall J Hebert
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith7
01801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 3:14 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions
Just send the picture as a regular attachment to your e-mail. It will ei
ther appear as a regular attachment on a link will be added at the botto
m of the message. If the picture/file is large (more than 100,000 to 300
,000 bytes or 100 to 300 kB) you might resize it.
~, g=D3=93
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-Listhref="http://forums.matronic
s.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contr
========================
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========================
========================
===================
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Click to find airline tickets for your next trip.
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pAes12gcoU18FsLa1WX80DfHwI6U6/
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Carburetor Ice? |
In uncertified installations, the carb heat plenum is an option (about $1000).
I spoke with Zenith about the best carb heat option for the 701 because I am
in Canada and carb heat is manditory. The answer I got is that due to the intake
air coming from inside the cowing after the air has passed through the rad
and oil cooler, carb ice would be unlikely(or at least something to that effect).
The following information is what I did but keep in mind that I am not yet flying.
I purchases an older used genuine Rotax carb heat plenum and have modified
it to fit my 701. The newer style carb heat plenums would likely fit better
but the price was right on the used item.
For hot air supply I have tapped into the cabin heat shroud. For cold air I built
a holder and fiberglass duct for a 6"X6" automotive K&N air filter. The filter
assy is mounted oppisite the oil tank. This will be fed via a NACA duct
from the side of the cowl.
Lockwood aiviation also has a heatable spacer block that uses warmed coolant to
heat the base of the carb. This system won't have the added benifit of providing
your engine with cold intake air.
Hope these ideas help you guys with this issue.
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch builder
NW Ontario, Canada
Do Not Archive
--- On Fri, 9/26/08, Mark Sherman <n752ms@softcom.net> wrote:
> From: Mark Sherman <n752ms@softcom.net>
> Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Carburetor Ice?
> To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 12:21 AM
> Alvin.
>
> The Rotax 912 ULS comes with a manifold for carb heat and
> cold air intake. It insures that you get the full 100 HP
> you paid for, by supplying cold air to the carbs and to
> supply heated air for carb heat.
>
> Did that not get installed on your 701?
>
> Mark S.
>
> 701/912ULS
Message 4
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Listers
Anybody have any experience with
carburettor hot water collars
suitable for any 912 engine ?
rgrds
Max
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On
>Behalf Of ext MacDonald Doug
>Sent: Friday, 26 September, 2008 14:11
>To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Carburetor Ice?
>
>--> <dougsnash@yahoo.com>
>
>In uncertified installations, the carb heat plenum is an
>option (about $1000). I spoke with Zenith about the best carb
>heat option for the 701 because I am in Canada and carb heat
>is manditory. The answer I got is that due to the intake air
>coming from inside the cowing after the air has passed through
>the rad and oil cooler, carb ice would be unlikely(or at least
>something to that effect).
-cut...
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions |
I had the same question --- wondering what the numbers were??
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: n801bh@netzero.com
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time,
questions
I guess this is a rather dumb question but,,,, Didnt you put the plane
on scales after all your mods and just before the first flight to run
the CG numbers?
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "BokKat" <bobkat@btinet.net> wrote:
=EF=BB
I had my BRS mounted similarly to where your is, only on the front
side of the firewall. The DAR warned me that the CG would be too far
back, and although the plane was well built and perfectly safe in every
other way, he insisted that the BRS be taken out and weight added
forward before the first flight! Being stupid and stubborn, I thought I
knew better and flew it like that, and though I hate to admit it, I
almost paid a heavy price for doing so! The plane was almost
uncontrolable at low speed, and I finally got it on the ground, but when
it slowed during the flare the nose took off like a homesick angel and
then slammed down on the turf, flattening the front fork. I made
several passes at the runway, using every bit of skill I had gleaned
from 3,000+ hours of flying everything from ultralights on up. When it
slowed down the nose raised, the tail dropped and it became so sluggish
it was virtually uncontrollable! Very unsafe, at least in my airplane!
I now have it mounted immediately behind the pilot/copilot seats, so
that one can use it as a head rest. I also moved the battery forward
to the front of the firewall to try to move the seriously aft CG
forward. Now it flies OK, but I'd be really concerned about the
placement of your BRS!
The only thing I had changed in the tail to move the CG backward was X
braces made of L angle aluminum as an anti-oil-canning thing, but this
probably wasn't of too much consequence. Basically the placement of my
"safety" chute almost became a "killer" chute.
I hate to admit how stupid and arrogant I was regarding the CG, but if
it saves someone else from making the same mistake, what the
heck........
What was unsafe in my plane MIGHT be safe in yours, but be very very
careful!
If you keep it like tht, be awfully sure of your weights and your
calculations regarding the CG!
----- Original Message -----
From: Les Goldner
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 9:11 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time,
questions
Thanks guys for the advice regarding sending pics through matronics.
I have attached two pictures taken during the construction of N67MG
that show the reinforcement to the baggage compartment back wall used to
support my BRS chute. The reinforcement consists of some big gussets
with Ls on their sides, and horizontal Ls top and bottom. The heavy
vertical Ls close to the center hold the chute.
Also, see the full-height cargo door on the pilot side of the
compartment in the pictures. I can get my 20# folding bike through this
door and have cargo nets forward of the door so nothing heavy falls to
the back.
Rgds,
Les
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Payne
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 1:57 PM
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time,
questions
The file and photo share is fine (but takes time) if you want the
item to stay around forever. But for one-offs you can also just attach
=9Creasonable=9D sized files to your posts.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Randall J. Hebert
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 2:43 PM
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time,
questions
Do Not Archive
This is from the list FAQ
There is more there but this should help get you started
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can
share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to
forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply
email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each
submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of
topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Randall J Hebert
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Payne
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 3:14 PM
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time,
questions
Just send the picture as a regular attachment to your e-mail. It
will either appear as a regular attachment on a link will be added at
the bottom of the message. If the picture/file is large (more than
100,000 to 300,000 bytes or 100 to 300 kB) you might resize it.
~,
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matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
1-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
tronics.com
www.matronics.com/contribution
____________________________________________________________
Click to find airline tickets for your next trip.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions |
Yes I sure did and with certified scales too, twice even. I have the
numbers out in the hangar and I'll get them and post them. The DAR and
I both worked with the numbers half the afternoon and in inches (he
wanted inches, not cm) it worked out to around 19 - 20, at the rear of
the envelope. He wnted it to be 15 or less, a forward CG.
He was insistent that for the first flight the plane with fuel, pilot,
etc. HAD to be in the forward half of the CG range. Mine with the BRS
was at the aft edge of the CG range. I weighed it twice and then once
more since the BRS and battery was moved up, and used certified scales,
etc. to do it.
I have the usual Rotax 912/Skyshops FWF kit. Nothing at all to shift the
CG rearward other than the X braces in the fuselage which can't weigh
more than a few pounds.
Like everyone point out, evdery plane is different, although most of
them are stock. I do have 4 gas tanks in mine, but only am using two
the outer two being empty. That shouldn't send the CG back much either.
My empty CG is not 14 with the BRS installed in the forward baggage
compartment. Shifts only to about 16 - 17 with full fuel and the the
FAA's two 180 pound pilots.
Flies like a dream, now.
In 35 years flying, I'd never flown a seriously aft CG aitplane, and I
never sant to do so again! The BRS location might be OK on your
airplane, but check and recheck it before you fly it. It was quite a
job to move it forward 2 feet - had to move the plastic blow out piece,
etc. Great now, though.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 6:43 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time,
questions
I had the same question --- wondering what the numbers were??
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: n801bh@netzero.com
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time,
questions
I guess this is a rather dumb question but,,,, Didnt you put the
plane on scales after all your mods and just before the first flight to
run the CG numbers?
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "BokKat" <bobkat@btinet.net> wrote:
=EF=BB
I had my BRS mounted similarly to where your is, only on the front
side of the firewall. The DAR warned me that the CG would be too far
back, and although the plane was well built and perfectly safe in every
other way, he insisted that the BRS be taken out and weight added
forward before the first flight! Being stupid and stubborn, I thought I
knew better and flew it like that, and though I hate to admit it, I
almost paid a heavy price for doing so! The plane was almost
uncontrolable at low speed, and I finally got it on the ground, but when
it slowed during the flare the nose took off like a homesick angel and
then slammed down on the turf, flattening the front fork. I made
several passes at the runway, using every bit of skill I had gleaned
from 3,000+ hours of flying everything from ultralights on up. When it
slowed down the nose raised, the tail dropped and it became so sluggish
it was virtually uncontrollable! Very unsafe, at least in my airplane!
I now have it mounted immediately behind the pilot/copilot seats, so
that one can use it as a head rest. I also moved the battery forward
to the front of the firewall to try to move the seriously aft CG
forward. Now it flies OK, but I'd be really concerned about the
placement of your BRS!
The only thing I had changed in the tail to move the CG backward was
X braces made of L angle aluminum as an anti-oil-canning thing, but this
probably wasn't of too much consequence. Basically the placement of my
"safety" chute almost became a "killer" chute.
I hate to admit how stupid and arrogant I was regarding the CG, but
if it saves someone else from making the same mistake, what the
heck........
What was unsafe in my plane MIGHT be safe in yours, but be very very
careful!
If you keep it like tht, be awfully sure of your weights and your
calculations regarding the CG!
----- Original Message -----
From: Les Goldner
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 9:11 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time,
questions
Thanks guys for the advice regarding sending pics through
matronics.
I have attached two pictures taken during the construction of
N67MG that show the reinforcement to the baggage compartment back wall
used to support my BRS chute. The reinforcement consists of some big
gussets with Ls on their sides, and horizontal Ls top and bottom. The
heavy vertical Ls close to the center hold the chute.
Also, see the full-height cargo door on the pilot side of the
compartment in the pictures. I can get my 20# folding bike through this
door and have cargo nets forward of the door so nothing heavy falls to
the back.
Rgds,
Les
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Payne
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 1:57 PM
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time,
questions
The file and photo share is fine (but takes time) if you want
the item to stay around forever. But for one-offs you can also just
attach =9Creasonable=9D sized files to your posts.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Randall J. Hebert
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 2:43 PM
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time,
questions
Do Not Archive
This is from the list FAQ
There is more there but this should help get you started
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can
share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to
forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos,
simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with
each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of
topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or
file
Randall J Hebert
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Payne
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 3:14 PM
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time,
questions
Just send the picture as a regular attachment to your e-mail. It
will either appear as a regular attachment on a link will be added at
the bottom of the message. If the picture/file is large (more than
100,000 to 300,000 bytes or 100 to 300 kB) you might resize it.
~,
------------------------------------------------------------------------
g=D3=93
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
1-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
tronics.com
www.matronics.com/contribution
____________________________________________________________
Click to find airline tickets for your next trip.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Carburetor Ice? |
Guys I have the 912ULS and received the heater manifold as well. One issue is that
with the Ring mount the manifold no longer fits and I see it being very difficult
to install or modify to make work. I did order the coolant ring or collar.
Has anyone used this? Will I lose much power due to it being warn all the
time? If I put a valve on it will it heat up fast enough to be effective? I fly
in Canada (just not my plane yet) and it is a must to have carb heat. I have
heard that electric heat is not allowed in Canada because if you have an electrical
failure it no longer works. I would like to put on the original manifold
from Rotax but I just dont see that fitting. If not I guess I have a shiny
new manifold for sale.
--------
CH701 Builder and new flyer
Rudder, HS, and Elevator completed
Left wing Complete
50% complete on Right Wing
99% Complete on Fuselage
Engine installed almost ready to fire
Instrument panel and electrical Complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6295#206295
Message 8
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Hi Mark
No my engine did not come with a manifold for carb heat
and cold air intake..All it has is two K&N air filters
at the input of the carbs..I understood that these engines
are not prone to this carb heat problem..I am checking the fuel
filters and fuel flow, If necessary I will get the manifold you
suggested.
Thanks for the suggestions
Alvin Rose
Time: 10:26:41 PM PST US
From: "Mark Sherman" <n752ms@softcom.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Carburetor Ice?
Alvin.
The Rotax 912 ULS comes with a manifold for carb heat and cold air
intake. It insures that you get the full 100 HP you paid for, by
supplying cold air to the carbs and to supply heated air for carb heat.
Did that not get installed on your 701?
Mark S.
701/912ULS
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