---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith701801-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 09/27/08: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:41 AM - Re: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (BokKat) 2. 06:48 AM - Re: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (BokKat) 3. 07:42 AM - Re: Inspection Plates (txpilot) 4. 07:53 AM - Carburetor Ice ? (Alvin Rose) 5. 08:27 AM - Re: Carburetor Ice ? (Ken Ryan) 6. 01:13 PM - Re: CH701 Wing Leveler (Les Goldner) 7. 01:13 PM - Re: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (Les Goldner) 8. 01:45 PM - Re: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions (Craig Payne) 9. 02:06 PM - BRS balance issue (Les Goldner) 10. 02:31 PM - Re: CH701 Wing Leveler (Ashcraft, Keith - AES) 11. 02:58 PM - Fuel Tests (bob) 12. 03:18 PM - Re: Fuel Tests (Les Goldner) 13. 04:41 PM - Re: Fuel Tests (George Race) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:34 AM PST US From: "BokKat" Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions Not a dumb question regarding CG issues at all! In inches (the DAR wanted it figured out in inches) the CG was about at the 19 inch mark with 20 being at the edge of the envelope. From 11 to 20 inches according to ZAC. After the first almost disasterous flight, our EAA group including two A & P's concluded that though the plane was withing the CG limits, albeit at the edge, probably as one gets closer to the aft limit of the cg things get a lot more critical. In fct, we carefully went over the plane and ran plumb bobs where we all agreed the various weights might be, the fuel tanks, the seats, etc. and they didn't agree 100% with numbers from the factory or what another builder in northern Minn had used! An inch more or less makes a small difference in overall W & B which gets more critical when you get closer to the edge of the CG envelope! The moral of the story is to be awfully careful as you approach the edge of the envelope. "All the mods" in my airplane are ONLY the placement of X braces and their rivets in the tail section, a mod that many people have done. This adds pretty well no significant weight to the tail (a couple of pounds, maybe) and no other mod was made to the entire airplace other than long range tanks (four 10 gallon wing tanks instead of two) Othersise NO mods at all! Standard kit! My DAR was insistent that the CG be in the front half for the first flight! He said his boss in the Minneapolis office insists on that. After working the math for half the afternoon, we decided that the only way to get the CG in the front half of the envelope would be to remove the BRS and even add a few pounds of lead in the forward part of the cockpit, and only put 10 gallons of gas in the tanks. This would put the CG into the forward half. I thought this was overkill as I had seen pictures of planes with a BRS against the baggage comprtment bulkhead, although in retrospect those were the earilier baggage compartments which were shorter than the extended one that is now used. I thought I knew better than the DAR as my plane was within the envelope so launched with the BRS on the baggage compartment bulkhead, 20 gallons of gas, no lead, etc. With the cg in this position the plane was almost uncontrollable at low speeds and almost ended up in disaster! ;I escaped with only a bent nose fork and bruised ego! It looks to me like your BRS will end up even behind mine, and unless your engine mount is longer or a heavier engine you could be setting yourself up for problems. But every airplane is a little bit different even though they are standard kits and who knows? You might be OK! I have a standard FWF package from Skyshops and a Rotax 912 S which obviously would not balance that 25 - 30 pound BRS way back there in my airplane. One can't beat the laws of physics, unfortunately. The laws of physics almost beat ME, instead! Never again. Which is why I'm cautioning anyone who contemplates putting their BRS way back there. These airplanes are light and a few pounds way back there might make quite a difference. If the builder has a heavier engine or longer engine mount that I have, it might work out OK. Even with a 912 you MIGHT get away with it, depending on all the other little factors involved in building a plane, although being kits they are pretty well much the same. But even your strengthening the fuselage in that area will shift the CG a little bit back. Every little bit makes a difference on these light airplanes. I built a Starduster 2 before the 701 and they tend to have an aft CG at best which had to be overcome by either a longer engine mount or a heavier engine. I love power and aerobatics, so put on a heavier engine to kill two birds with one rock! Hah! After sending your pictures around to several other EAA'rs who have all built at least one airplane including 2 A &P's and who have all inspected my airplane before and after the first sort-of-flight and almost had the opportunity to analyze the wreckage, the most poignant one I recieved back is quoted: This is BIG TROUBLE! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:25 AM PST US From: "BokKat" Subject: Zenith701801-List: RE: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions I was noticing your big door to the baggage compartment. I have a couple of 20 inch folding bikes, but these weigh around 20 - 25 pounds apiece, so if you add ANOTHER 25 pounds back there I'd be doubly cautious! Not being critical, just cautious...... The idea of a door to the baggage compartment is a good one though. How did you build it so as not to weaken the airframe? I'd be quite interested in this. Thanks Bob ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:49 AM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Inspection Plates From: "txpilot" Thanks for the replies. That gives me some good info to work on. Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6437#206437 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:27 AM PST US From: "Alvin Rose" Subject: Zenith701801-List: Carburetor Ice ? Hi Ralph I think this problem may have to do with fuel flow...but I am not ruling out carb heat..I flew all of last winter with no carb heat and did not have a problem even on the coldest days..I found some dirt in my gas filter so I will clean it. also clean the air filters I have a electric pump installed with a bypass valve but did not turn it on as I was setting up a glide to the landing strip..the engine did not stop It was just speeding up and slowing down >From now on I will keep the electric pump on to provide extra gas to the mechanical pump. Also I will install 1/4 inch vent tubing on the top of each tank cap to vent better. I have had the problem of the right tank supply going down before the left but this has not been an issue..I will also check the float bowls on the carburetors to see if there is any water or sediment..I use a mr funnel on all gas so I don't see any water or cantamination in the gascolator or tank drains..I am doing some checks of the fuel system today and will fly again over the airstrip. Alvin Alvin, What you describe is not the usual carb ice symptoms although with 2 carbs it could manifest that way. I have had a power loss 6 times now which first thought was carb ice but now certain caused by steep descent or unbalanced attitudes causing unporting of the fuel feed. On separate occasions during ground running above damp grass I've had carb ice and cleared it with carb ht. then let it occur again and clear again just to confirm. My engine is a 2200 however it uses the same model of carb as the 912 and although I see many not fitting a heat system its proved necessary for me. Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:27:57 AM PST US From: "Ken Ryan" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Carburetor Ice ? X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41) >Previous post: > > I flew all of last winter with no carb heat and did not have a problem > even on the coldest days > I just want to chime in to remind everyone that you don't need cold outside air temperature to develop carb icing. As the intake air expands going through the carburetor venturi the temperature can drop 30 degrees. You can get carb icing on a 60 degree day. I've seen it many times. On the other hand, when it is extremely cold, there is very little moisture in the air and carb icing is far less likely. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:13:47 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: CH701 Wing Leveler Keith, My Trio EZ autopilot worked great keeping the wings level and the plane on-course. EZ a great product with good support. I took a 3000-mile round trip flight into a lot of high-wind conditions without having to put my hands on the stick except to adjust the trim tab and to land. Notice that I used the past tense here because I no longer have good GPS input into the EZ. When the EZ worked, I was using my Lowrance 1000 GPS output to control it. Then I made a bad mistake by selling my Lowrance & purchasing a fancy do-everything, AnyWhereMap GPS that operates on a Windows tablet PC. AnyWhereMap assured me that their product would work with my EZ but it doesn't! The plane now swings back and forth up to 15-degrees off-course under the control of the AnyWhereMap. AnyWhereMap won't give me back my money without hitting me with a hefty restocking fee. Its been 3-months since I purchased the unit and they still haven't fixed the problem! (You may want to consider putting this firm on your no-buy list). Les > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of Ashcraft, Keith - AES > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:32 PM > To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith701801-List: CH701 Wing Leveler > > --> > > Les Goldner, > Since the matronics 601 group have been having the discussion > on AutoPilots, how has your wing-leveler been working out > with your 701? > Any inverse-yaw actions? > > Just curious, and hope you are making sure that there is more > air time under your tires than ground time :-) > > Keith > CH701 -- scratch -- finishing up rear fuselage, ready to > finish cabin sides, and work on forward fuselage. > N 38.9940 > W 105.1305 > Alt. 9,100' > > > > This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may be > proprietary and are intended solely for the use of the > individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have > received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. > Please note that any views or opinions presented in this > e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily > represent those of ITT Corporation. The recipient should > check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of > viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by > any virus transmitted by this e-mail. > > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:13:47 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions My 701 with a Rotax 100HP and a BRS behind the baggage compartment weights 650# and has an empty CG of 374cm behind the front of the slats. (500cm is max.) Les _____ From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 4:44 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions I had the same question --- wondering what the numbers were?? do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: n801bh@netzero.com Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 7:04 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions I guess this is a rather dumb question but,,,, Didnt you put the plane on scales after all your mods and just before the first flight to run the CG numbers? Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "BokKat" wrote: =C3=AF=C2=BB=C2 I had my BRS mounted similarly to where your is, only on the front side of the firewall. The DAR warned me that the CG would be too far back, and although the plane was well built and perfectly safe in every other way, he insisted that the BRS be taken out and weight added forward before the first flight! Being stupid and stubborn, I thought I knew better and flew it like that, and though I hate to admit it, I almost paid a heavy price for doing so! The plane was almost uncontrolable at low speed, and I finally got it on the ground, but when it slowed during the flare the nose took off like a homesick angel and then slammed down on the turf, flattening the front fork. I made several passes at the runway, using every bit of skill I had gleaned from 3,000+ hours of flying everything from ultralights on up. When it slowed down the nose raised, the tail dropped and it became so sluggish it was virtually uncontrollable! Very unsafe, at least in my airplane! I now have it mounted immediately behind the pilot/copilot seats, so that one can use it as a head rest. I also moved the battery forward to the front of the firewall to try to move the seriously aft CG forward. Now it flies OK, but I'd be really concerned about the placement of your BRS! The only thing I had changed in the tail to move the CG backward was X braces made of L angle aluminum as an anti-oil-canning thing, but this probably wasn't of too much consequence. Basically the placement of my "safety" chute almost became a "killer" chute. I hate to admit how stupid and arrogant I was regarding the CG, but if it saves someone else from making the same mistake, what the heck........ What was unsafe in my plane MIGHT be safe in yours, but be very very careful! If you keep it like tht, be awfully sure of your weights and your calculations regarding the CG! ----- Original Message ----- From: Les Goldner Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 9:11 PM Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions Thanks guys for the advice regarding sending pics through matronics. I have attached two pictures taken during the construction of N67MG that show the reinforcement to the baggage compartment back wall used to support my BRS chute. The reinforcement consists of some big gussets with Ls on their sides, and horizontal Ls top and bottom. The heavy vertical Ls close to the center hold the chute. Also, see the full-height cargo door on the pilot side of the compartment in the pictures. I can get my 20# folding bike through this door and have cargo nets forward of the door so nothing heavy falls to the back. Rgds, Les _____ From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 1:57 PM Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions The file and photo share is fine (but takes time) if you want the item to stay around forever. But for one-offs you can also just attach =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93reasonable=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D sized files to your posts. -- Craig From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randall J. Hebert Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 2:43 PM Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions Do Not Archive This is from the list FAQ There is more there but this should help get you started **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Randall J Hebert From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 3:14 PM Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions Just send the picture as a regular attachment to your e-mail. It will either appear as a regular attachment on a link will be added at the bottom of the message. If the picture/file is large (more than 100,000 to 300,000 bytes or 100 to 300 kB) you might resize it. ~, _____ g=C3=93=9C href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c 1-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List tronics.com www.matronics.com/contribution ____________________________________________________________ Click to find airline tickets for your next trip. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:45:46 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions Les, where did you mount your battery? -- Craig From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Goldner Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 2:13 PM Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions My 701 with a Rotax 100HP and a BRS behind the baggage compartment weights 650# and has an empty CG of 374cm behind the front of the slats. (500cm is max.) Les _____ From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 4:44 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions I had the same question --- wondering what the numbers were?? do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: n801bh@netzero.com Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 7:04 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions I guess this is a rather dumb question but,,,, Didnt you put the plane on scales after all your mods and just before the first flight to run the CG numbers? Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "BokKat" wrote: =C3=AF=C2=BB=C2 I had my BRS mounted similarly to where your is, only on the front side of the firewall. The DAR warned me that the CG would be too far back, and although the plane was well built and perfectly safe in every other way, he insisted that the BRS be taken out and weight added forward before the first flight! Being stupid and stubborn, I thought I knew better and flew it like that, and though I hate to admit it, I almost paid a heavy price for doing so! The plane was almost uncontrolable at low speed, and I finally got it on the ground, but when it slowed during the flare the nose took off like a homesick angel and then slammed down on the turf, flattening the front fork. I made several passes at the runway, using every bit of skill I had gleaned from 3,000+ hours of flying everything from ultralights on up. When it slowed down the nose raised, the tail dropped and it became so sluggish it was virtually uncontrollable! Very unsafe, at least in my airplane! I now have it mounted immediately behind the pilot/copilot seats, so that one can use it as a head rest. I also moved the battery forward to the front of the firewall to try to move the seriously aft CG forward. Now it flies OK, but I'd be really concerned about the placement of your BRS! The only thing I had changed in the tail to move the CG backward was X braces made of L angle aluminum as an anti-oil-canning thing, but this probably wasn't of too much consequence. Basically the placement of my "safety" chute almost became a "killer" chute. I hate to admit how stupid and arrogant I was regarding the CG, but if it saves someone else from making the same mistake, what the heck........ What was unsafe in my plane MIGHT be safe in yours, but be very very careful! If you keep it like tht, be awfully sure of your weights and your calculations regarding the CG! ----- Original Message ----- From: Les Goldner Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 9:11 PM Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions Thanks guys for the advice regarding sending pics through matronics. I have attached two pictures taken during the construction of N67MG that show the reinforcement to the baggage compartment back wall used to support my BRS chute. The reinforcement consists of some big gussets with Ls on their sides, and horizontal Ls top and bottom. The heavy vertical Ls close to the center hold the chute. Also, see the full-height cargo door on the pilot side of the compartment in the pictures. I can get my 20# folding bike through this door and have cargo nets forward of the door so nothing heavy falls to the back. Rgds, Les _____ From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 1:57 PM Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions The file and photo share is fine (but takes time) if you want the item to stay around forever. But for one-offs you can also just attach =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93reasonable=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D sized files to your posts. -- Craig From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randall J. Hebert Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 2:43 PM Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions Do Not Archive This is from the list FAQ There is more there but this should help get you started **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Randall J Hebert From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 3:14 PM Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions Just send the picture as a regular attachment to your e-mail. It will either appear as a regular attachment on a link will be added at the bottom of the message. If the picture/file is large (more than 100,000 to 300,000 bytes or 100 to 300 kB) you might resize it. ~, _____ g=C3=93=9C href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c 1-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List tronics.com www.matronics.com/contribution ____________________________________________________________ Click to find airline tickets for your next trip. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:06:54 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: Zenith701801-List: BRS balance issue Bob, I don't understand why our 701 balance is so different. My 701 with a Rotax 100-HP (old style mount) and a BRS behind the baggage compartment weights 654#. My empty CG is 373-mm behind the front of the slats. (500-mm is max.). My weight and balance sheet (an Excel spread sheet) is attached. I did the W&B twice to make certain it was OK. I have had up to 40# of baggage, 400# of people, and 20-gal of fuel in the plane (plus the 20# of tools, see below) with no problems. In fact, the plane flies really well with no tendency to go nose-up. The elevator trim usually stays mid position and I have not had to add VGs for slow flight. FYI, my battery is on the fire wall and, just to play it safe, I keep 20# of spare parts and tools in a 6" aluminum tube under my feet mid-way between the peddles and the seat. However, based upon your problems, I plan get to a really accurate weighing at the Cafe' HQ. in Santa Rosa Ca. After 110 hours flying, including trying to see if the nose would come down in extreme nose-up/ idle stalls, I see no balance problems with my plane. How much weight did you add to the plane with the structure you put in to trying to stop the oil-canning? (I just glued on some very light wood "L" moldings for this purpose). Les _____ From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BokKat Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 6:41 AM Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Re: After 5 hours flight time, questions Not a dumb question regarding CG issues at all! In inches (the DAR wanted it figured out in inches) the CG was about at the 19 inch mark with 20 being at the edge of the envelope. From 11 to 20 inches according to ZAC. After the first almost disasterous flight, our EAA group including two A & P's concluded that though the plane was withing the CG limits, albeit at the edge, probably as one gets closer to the aft limit of the cg things get a lot more critical. In fct, we carefully went over the plane and ran plumb bobs where we all agreed the various weights might be, the fuel tanks, the seats, etc. and they didn't agree 100% with numbers from the factory or what another builder in northern Minn had used! An inch more or less makes a small difference in overall W & B which gets more critical when you get closer to the edge of the CG envelope! The moral of the story is to be awfully careful as you approach the edge of the envelope. "All the mods" in my airplane are ONLY the placement of X braces and their rivets in the tail section, a mod that many people have done. This adds pretty well no significant weight to the tail (a couple of pounds, maybe) and no other mod was made to the entire airplace other than long range tanks (four 10 gallon wing tanks instead of two) Othersise NO mods at all! Standard kit! My DAR was insistent that the CG be in the front half for the first flight! He said his boss in the Minneapolis office insists on that. After working the math for half the afternoon, we decided that the only way to get the CG in the front half of the envelope would be to remove the BRS and even add a few pounds of lead in the forward part of the cockpit, and only put 10 gallons of gas in the tanks. This would put the CG into the forward half. I thought this was overkill as I had seen pictures of planes with a BRS against the baggage comprtment bulkhead, although in retrospect those were the earilier baggage compartments which were shorter than the extended one that is now used. I thought I knew better than the DAR as my plane was within the envelope so launched with the BRS on the baggage compartment bulkhead, 20 gallons of gas, no lead, etc. With the cg in this position the plane was almost uncontrollable at low speeds and almost ended up in disaster! ;I escaped with only a bent nose fork and bruised ego! It looks to me like your BRS will end up even behind mine, and unless your engine mount is longer or a heavier engine you could be setting yourself up for problems. But every airplane is a little bit different even though they are standard kits and who knows? You might be OK! I have a standard FWF package from Skyshops and a Rotax 912 S which obviously would not balance that 25 - 30 pound BRS way back there in my airplane. One can't beat the laws of physics, unfortunately. The laws of physics almost beat ME, instead! Never again. Which is why I'm cautioning anyone who contemplates putting their BRS way back there. These airplanes are light and a few pounds way back there might make quite a difference. If the builder has a heavier engine or longer engine mount that I have, it might work out OK. Even with a 912 you MIGHT get away with it, depending on all the other little factors involved in building a plane, although being kits they are pretty well much the same. But even your strengthening the fuselage in that area will shift the CG a little bit back. Every little bit makes a difference on these light airplanes. I built a Starduster 2 before the 701 and they tend to have an aft CG at best which had to be overcome by either a longer engine mount or a heavier engine. I love power and aerobatics, so put on a heavier engine to kill two birds with one rock! Hah! After sending your pictures around to several other EAA'rs who have all built at least one airplane including 2 A &P's and who have all inspected my airplane before and after the first sort-of-flight and almost had the opportunity to analyze the wreckage, the most poignant one I recieved back is quoted: This is BIG TROUBLE! ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:31:34 PM PST US From: "Ashcraft, Keith - AES" Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: CH701 Wing Leveler Les, Thanks for the info. I still have my pictures of your installment, and will put them to good use when I get to the point of installing my control equipment. Thanks again, Keith ******************************************************************* ________________________________________ From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Goldner [lgold@quantum-associates.com] Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 2:13 PM Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: CH701 Wing Leveler Keith, My Trio EZ autopilot worked great keeping the wings level and the plane on-course. EZ a great product with good support. I took a 3000-mile round trip flight into a lot of high-wind conditions without having to put my hands on the stick except to adjust the trim tab and to land. Notice that I used the past tense here because I no longer have good GPS input into the EZ. When the EZ worked, I was using my Lowrance 1000 GPS output to control it. Then I made a bad mistake by selling my Lowrance & purchasing a fancy do-everything, AnyWhereMap GPS that operates on a Windows tablet PC. AnyWhereMap assured me that their product would work with my EZ but it doesn't! The plane now swings back and forth up to 15-degrees off-course under the control of the AnyWhereMap. AnyWhereMap won't give me back my money without hitting me with a hefty restocking fee. Its been 3-months since I purchased the unit and they still haven't fixed the problem! (You may want to consider putting this firm on your no-buy list). Les > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of Ashcraft, Keith - AES > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:32 PM > To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith701801-List: CH701 Wing Leveler > > --> > > Les Goldner, > Since the matronics 601 group have been having the discussion > on AutoPilots, how has your wing-leveler been working out > with your 701? > Any inverse-yaw actions? > > Just curious, and hope you are making sure that there is more > air time under your tires than ground time :-) > > Keith > CH701 -- scratch -- finishing up rear fuselage, ready to > finish cabin sides, and work on forward fuselage. > N 38.9940 > W 105.1305 > Alt. 9,100' > > > This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may be > proprietary and are intended solely for the use of the > individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have > received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. > Please note that any views or opinions presented in this > e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily > represent those of ITT Corporation. The recipient should > check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of > viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by > any virus transmitted by this e-mail. > > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:05 PM PST US From: "bob" Subject: Zenith701801-List: Fuel Tests Hi Group, Here are the test results of my fuel test as promised. I have a CH701 with dual factory wing tanks that are connected together by the gascolator. The are no fuel valves to manage fuel flow, only a fuel cut off valve that is common to both tanks. Today I clamped the fuel line and drained the right fuel tank completely. After warm up and an extra long engine run up I climbed to 1500 feet. After reaching cruise and staying close to the airport I released the clamp on the fuel line. This created an instant empty tank in the fuel system. This should be no different than if I had run one tank dry in flight. Once the clamp was released I continued to fly around the airport for 20 minutes. I then replaced the clamp in flight and landed. During the flight the engine performed perfectly normal with no sign of fuel problems. I ran the engine at 5000 RPM during this test. After landing and shutdown at the hangar I removed the tank drain fitting and drained 1 quart of fuel from the previously empty tank. This indicates that during flight fuel was consumed from the left tank and some fuel also flowed from the left into the empty right tank. I would think that given time the two tanks would even out and fuel would then flow from both. >From my flight test I am convinced that running one tank dry will not create a safety of flight problem. Fuel will continue to flow from the other tank. The only caveat is that both tanks must have nearly the same pressure above the fuel. By nearly I mean less than 0.2 PSI difference. I think I have that with the snorkle vents I installed. While I had the right tank drained I calibrated my DIP tube. If any of you have the Zenith factory tanks installed and are or plan on using the J-AIR Universal FuelHawk fuel gauge, here is the relationship I have found. The dip tube has a scale from 1 to 14 along the length of the tube. The first gallon in the tank will not show on the gauge, the second gallon will indicate one (1) on the scale. As you add each additional gallon the indication will go up one (1). When you get to 9 gallons the gauge will indicate 8, when 10 gallons are in the tank it will indicate 9 3/4 . When filled to the bottom of the filler neck the gauge will indicate 13 and you will have 11 gallons in the tank. The Zenith tanks can collectively hold 22 gallons, of course not all of that is useable. I consider the last gallon off limits in each tank, so I will continue to plan with 20 gallon. In simple terms the amount of fuel in the tank is the dip number + 1 gallon, so long as the number is at or below 8. Then 9 3/4 is 10 gallons and 13 is 11 gallons. The tank design has a sloped top which accounts for the non linear behavior at the nearly full point. Happy flying, Bob Kissell N701UB ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:19 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Fuel Tests Bob, Thanks for sharing this very valuable info with the group. My engineering background led me to believe all-along that, unless the empty tank (for some unimaginable reason) had a vacuum pulling fuel up, an empty tank could not stop fuel from flowing from the full one. Thanks again, Les _____ From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bob Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 2:59 PM Subject: Zenith701801-List: Fuel Tests Hi Group, Here are the test results of my fuel test as promised. I have a CH701 with dual factory wing tanks that are connected together by the gascolator. The are no fuel valves to manage fuel flow, only a fuel cut off valve that is common to both tanks. Today I clamped the fuel line and drained the right fuel tank completely. After warm up and an extra long engine run up I climbed to 1500 feet. After reaching cruise and staying close to the airport I released the clamp on the fuel line. This created an instant empty tank in the fuel system. This should be no different than if I had run one tank dry in flight. Once the clamp was released I continued to fly around the airport for 20 minutes. I then replaced the clamp in flight and landed. During the flight the engine performed perfectly normal with no sign of fuel problems. I ran the engine at 5000 RPM during this test. After landing and shutdown at the hangar I removed the tank drain fitting and drained 1 quart of fuel from the previously empty tank. This indicates that during flight fuel was consumed from the left tank and some fuel also flowed from the left into the empty right tank. I would think that given time the two tanks would even out and fuel would then flow from both. >From my flight test I am convinced that running one tank dry will not create a safety of flight problem. Fuel will continue to flow from the other tank. The only caveat is that both tanks must have nearly the same pressure above the fuel. By nearly I mean less than 0.2 PSI difference. I think I have that with the snorkle vents I installed. While I had the right tank drained I calibrated my DIP tube. If any of you have the Zenith factory tanks installed and are or plan on using the J-AIR Universal FuelHawk fuel gauge, here is the relationship I have found. The dip tube has a scale from 1 to 14 along the length of the tube. The first gallon in the tank will not show on the gauge, the second gallon will indicate one (1) on the scale. As you add each additional gallon the indication will go up one (1). When you get to 9 gallons the gauge will indicate 8, when 10 gallons are in the tank it will indicate 9 3/4 . When filled to the bottom of the filler neck the gauge will indicate 13 and you will have 11 gallons in the tank. The Zenith tanks can collectively hold 22 gallons, of course not all of that is useable. I consider the last gallon off limits in each tank, so I will continue to plan with 20 gallon. In simple terms the amount of fuel in the tank is the dip number + 1 gallon, so long as the number is at or below 8. Then 9 3/4 is 10 gallons and 13 is 11 gallons. The tank design has a sloped top which accounts for the non linear behavior at the nearly full point. Happy flying, Bob Kissell N701UB ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:02 PM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Fuel Tests Thanks Bob, I have the exact same setup as you do and have been concerned since the subject was raised. Your research and test has put this concern to rest once and for all. Thanks again, George N73EX - FLYING _____ From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bob Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 5:59 PM Subject: Zenith701801-List: Fuel Tests Hi Group, Here are the test results of my fuel test as promised. I have a CH701 with dual factory wing tanks that are connected together by the gascolator. The are no fuel valves to manage fuel flow, only a fuel cut off valve that is common to both tanks. Happy flying, Bob Kissell N701UB ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith701801-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith701801-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith701801-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith701801-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.