Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:29 AM - New Corvair Products (Brady)
2. 05:12 AM - Re: Kit or Scratch? (bryanekholm)
3. 05:33 AM - Re: Kit or Scratch? (John Bolding)
4. 06:28 AM - Re: Kit or Scratch? (Randall J. Hebert)
5. 12:15 PM - Re: Kit or Scratch? (Chris Lewis)
6. 01:05 PM - Kit or Scratch? (Art Gibeaut)
7. 02:42 PM - Re: Kit or Scratch? (BokKat)
8. 03:16 PM - Re: Gross weight? (mcjon77)
9. 06:16 PM - Re: Kit or Scratch? (LarryMcFarland)
10. 06:56 PM - Great news for the School kids at CKJH (Brady)
Message 1
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| Subject: | New Corvair Products |
For all you Corvair nuts,
We have updated our website and have some new products available.
All Aluminum Nikasil cylinders
New 4340 Con rods
MagVair Pistons
www.magnificentmachine.com
Enjoy,
Brady
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9145#209145
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| Subject: | Re: Kit or Scratch? |
For me I would say I will save about a quarter to a third of the cost of the airframe
kit by building from plans. Of course I bought my aluminum about six or
seven years ago. The prices were much lower back then. Many of the steel welded
parts I have purchased from ZAC since I'm not a welder. I will be bending
my own main gear leg (haven't done that yet, but the 8' aluminum bar I bought
cost me $85 as opposed to $505 from ZAC). If you scratch build you will need
to have access to a 6' bending brake for the longer parts and it's nice to
have a smaller brake for the smaller parts.
Bryan Ekholm
--------
Bryan Ekholm
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9150#209150
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Kit or Scratch? |
A lot depends on if you have or don't mind buying the extra tools and how
close you are to materials sources for alum. I haven't priced alum lately
so can only comment on when I bought which was about 3 yrs ago. The "kit"
took me about 5 weeks of part time work to make and I saved about $7K plus
or minus a little. This is my 4 th homebuilt so have a full shop and all
the stuff to build it. Lots of guys say it doubles the time but I had all
the stuff built that comes in the kit in 5 weeks (still haven't bent the
gear yet) so that's what it added to my build time.
Another advantage is you read of parts that are ruined by the builder and
the time and expense it takes to replace, if you already have the form
blocks and material you can fab another from scrap material in the time it
takes for the kit builder to make out a check and walk it to the mailbox.
MOST of the tools needed are required either way, the driven rivets are
BEST driven with a rivet gun . I can't imagine not having compressed air but
a compressor can be bought used and resold (you won't sell it ) at the end
of the project to recoup if necessary.
Same for the welding equipment, you can farm those parts if you wish or buy
from Zenith.
It's really nice we have a choice.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Collins" <bobcollins42@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:21 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Kit or Scratch?
> <bobcollins42@gmail.com>
>
> I have a question for everyone, but especially those of you like Chris
> Lewis who are building from plans (scratch building).
>
> What do you think the cost comparison is between the raw materials and
> Zenith's kit? My workshop instructor felt that there might be little or no
> savings over buying the kit. Considering my knowledge of how business
> works, this might be true.
>
> Again, for the scratch builders, where are you buying your metal? Are you
> able to find it locally or do you have to order it from places such are
> Aircraft Spruce or Wicks? Do the plans recommend the size and quantity of
> raw stock to buy?
>
> Third question. For those of you who have viewed it, what do you think of
> the "Scratch Building Basics for Metal Aircraft" DVD from
> HomebuiltHELP.com?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob Collins
> Sunnyvale CA USA
>
> CH750 (well, sitting here with a fine new 701/750 rudder)
>
>
>
Message 4
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Bob
For me it was more about how I spent the money than should I spend it.
I have found that buying only what I need for a particular phase allowed
me to get this far.
I am about to complete the rt wing, having completed the tail section
and left wing.
I think you will find a pride in building each component, as I have
found.
Yes, I had to build a shop that I did not have, and buy a lot of tools
that I did not have,
The secondary benefit is that I am now able to tackle the honey-dos
around the house a lot better that before because of the accumulation of
tools and new knowledge.
I know the spending will increase as I get closer to the engine/panel
etc, but I still plan to phase these areas in.
I can truly say I would not have gotten this far without the Homebuilt
Help videos. I find that looking at the plans you don't know where to
start.
Following the path set out in the videos, and using the plans I can
build an airplane.
If you build form a kit, you still should invest in the videos.
Good luck deciding and building. This list has also been invaluable to
me personally. The guys here usually ask and answer questions I have or
will have and the knowledge speeds up my decisions and actions.
Randall J Hebert
Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Engineers
Ph 337-261-1976 Fx 337-261-1977
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
I have a question for everyone, but especially those of you like Chris
Lewis who are building from plans (scratch building).
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Kit or Scratch? |
Bob - I'm a former toolbelt guy who's been flying a desk for 15+ years now. To
say that I miss the pride in creating something from nearly nothing (or at least
raw materials) is an understatement.
This basic need to create and my issues around size along with the new SP reg's
made my decision simple (for me). It will certainly take longer and may or may
not save a ton of $$, but it's been a great experience to date.
I did have to buy/make some tools, but there's a lot of help available there. I've
ordered aluminum from Wick's to this point, but have had real shipping issues.
I was bolstered in my delusions by Chris Heintz's personal attention to my request
for review and approval of my mods. I even travelled to the grand opening
of Quality Sportsplanes in Cloverdale, just to meet him personally and deliver
a small palm sized model of my plane that I made as a thank you. We spoke at
length about the joys of scratch building and knowing that "I made this myself"
at the end of the day. I plan to build a Corvair powerplant as well to keep
the theme alive.
I have conversed with Mark from Can-Zac many times and have found him to be most
helpful. I own the Scratch building and Sheet Metal 101 video's from Homebuilt
Help and would highly recommend them. They are not Hollywood quality, rather
homey and useful. Jon Croke has gone to a lot of effort to help demystify the
process and many of his video's are worth owning.
The only wrinkle in my plans and approach was the actual arrival of the CH750.
It is all of the things I was trying to achieve on my own and then some. I've
shelved my project for now and am awaiting my set of 750 plans for review. I may
choose to switch over to building the 750, or just take some of the high points
and add them to my project.
I have the luxury of time. I'm in no hurry and likely never will be. I lead a busy
life (like everyone) and am pleased to see that developments in the CH 7 series,
the Corvair movement and the efforts from StolSpeed in continuing real-world
experimenting with VG's.
For me, there's no other path. Each of you will need to weigh your own, desires,
skills and goals and go forth. I truly love that Zenith gives us all options
to suit.
Chris in Seattle
--------
701 Scratch Builder
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9214#209214
Message 6
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This being my first attempt at building an aircraft with little or no metal experience
I did not think I could handle scratch building in early 2007 whenI decided
to go forward with a CH 701. I also could not see buying all of the tools
necessary to scratch build, and the added time was also an issue. I was actuallya
littleintimidated by the thought of plans building and had nothing but respect
for the people that had done it. It came down totime andmoney and the normal
trade-offs of a busy life. So I went to the Rudder Class at Zenith and started
buying components kits as I needed them. Zenith is absolutely top notch
when it come to help for novice builders and I am glad I chose a 701.
So now, a year and four months later, I've ended up buying all of the tools including
a brake,3 air drills, an angle drill, various sheet metal hand tools, Olfa
knives (note plural),a supply of 6061 T6 sheets in various thicknesses,and
a dandy compressor which I will never sell. I have the wings, tail, rear fuselage,
cabin, and firewall done and I'm not nearly as concerned with getting this
projectcompleted asfast as I once was. I spent the money to save the time,
and now I don't care about the time. I look forward tothe "escape" of building
nearly everyday and I know I'm going to miss this when I have it done.
I bought the tools and the exta sheets of alum a little at a time as I screwed
up small parts and was too embarrassed to admit it so I could quietly remake them.
Fact is, that is again part of the fun. You are going to get into jams from
time to time and it is great having the tools and extra aluminum around to
figure out the solution and move on.
Would I do it the same way again? Not sure! But the next time I won't be so naive
as to think it is all about thetime and the money. Oh it is still about those
two items, but I had them in the wrong order. I think I'll plans build the
next one.
do not archive
__________________________________________________
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Kit or Scratch? |
I had built a Starduster, or arther I finished a partly built one a few
years ago and enjoyed doing it. Then rebuilt a kitfox, then one day got the
itch to try something in metal. Maybe composite next???
I had some temporary health problems a few years ago and while I got my
medical back I wanted to build a low and slow sport pilot airplane to fly
from our grass strip behind the house.
So I was lucky to find a guy selling a never started kit for much less than
Zenith would have charged for a new one. So I called a couple of retired
buddies and off we went with a horse trailer to Oklahoma!
Now that I have 20 hours on it, I'm enjoying every second of it, more with
each flight if that's even possible! Once you find it handles a bit
different from anything I had flown before it turned out to be very docile
and really FUN aircraft!
No blazing speed, but that isn't what the 701 is all about! I still have
yet to hit 3 digits on the airspeed indicator even in a dive, but it reads
low by about 10 mph, not that it matters.....! No matter what it says I
won't get there any faster!
So if there is anyone out there getting discouraged, keep nibbling away at
it and you'll be done before you know it and you'll really have fun flying
it! Guaranteed!
I really respect you scratch builders out there. I also can really
recommend the Homebuilt Help Series of Videos, which unfortunately I didn't
find out till I was 80% done. They are invaluable and if I'd had them
earlier I'd saved myself several goof ups and many hours of head scratching.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Art Gibeaut" <aagibeaut@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:05 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Kit or Scratch?
>
>
> This being my first attempt at building an aircraft with little or no
> metal experience I did not think I could handle scratch building in early
> 2007 when I decided to go forward with a CH 701. I also could not see
> buying all of the tools necessary to scratch build, and the added time was
> also an issue. I was actually a little intimidated by the thought of plans
> building and had nothing but respect for the people that had done it. It
> came down to time and money and the normal trade-offs of a busy life. So I
> went to the Rudder Class at Zenith and started buying components kits as I
> needed them. Zenith is absolutely top notch when it come to help for
> novice builders and I am glad I chose a 701.
>
> So now, a year and four months later, I've ended up buying all of the
> tools including a brake, 3 air drills, an angle drill, various sheet metal
> hand tools, Olfa knives (note plural), a supply of 6061 T6 sheets in
> various thicknesses, and a dandy compressor which I will never sell. I
> have the wings, tail, rear fuselage, cabin, and firewall done and I'm not
> nearly as concerned with getting this project completed as fast as I once
> was. I spent the money to save the time, and now I don't care about the
> time. I look forward to the "escape" of building nearly everyday and I
> know I'm going to miss this when I have it done.
>
> I bought the tools and the exta sheets of alum a little at a time as I
> screwed up small parts and was too embarrassed to admit it so I could
> quietly remake them. Fact is, that is again part of the fun. You are going
> to get into jams from time to time and it is great having the tools and
> extra aluminum around to figure out the solution and move on.
>
> Would I do it the same way again? Not sure! But the next time I won't be
> so naive as to think it is all about the time and the money. Oh it is
> still about those two items, but I had them in the wrong order. I think
> I'll plans build the next one.
>
> do not archive
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Gross weight? |
GPAS now sells the Valley Engineering Redrive, so whether you buy from GPAS or
valley engineering you get the same redrive. Valley goes so far as to sell a complete
firewall forward package. I really like their redrive and have not found
any bad words about it from folks that have flown behind it.
I wonder if one could use that redrive vw to power a 750, since it produces 100+
hp.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9236#209236
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Kit or Scratch? |
Hi Bokat,
If you're possibly interested in composite, our chapter has a donated
Glasair RG for sale. Owner was T-boned on the highway and lost his medical.
The Glasair has over $100,000.00 materials in it, and is ready for the
engine. Here's nearly 200 mph and 24 mpg with retractible gear for an asking
of $50K OBO. I think it's a beautiful aircraft. Pictures on site see link,
*www.eaa75.com/Glassair.pdf*
**
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
**
BokKat wrote:
>
> I had built a Starduster, or arther I finished a partly built one a
> few years ago and enjoyed doing it. Then rebuilt a kitfox, then one
> day got the itch to try something in metal. Maybe composite next???
Message 10
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| Subject: | Great news for the School kids at CKJH |
Today we started for the first time the engine on the 701 that the kids built at
Central Kitsap Junior High School!
The engine is a Revmaster VW conversion that was donated by its previous owner.
If you are not familiar with this airplane, it was built entirely from scratch
by Junior High kids.
The website is still up even though the program was canceled.
I wish the Kids could have been here today to see this!
http://ckjh.cksd.wednet.edu/staff/airplane/default.htm
They worked very hard for this day and none of them were here to see it.
Thanks to the new principle and the new shop teacher who was some how threatened
by the extra curricular program.
I am sure the kids are much better off building bird houses. :(
any way, IT IS ALIVE!
I feel a some what sour success.
I will post a you tube Video next week.
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9254#209254
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