Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:43 AM - Re: 701 Flap Angle choices (John Swartout)
2. 07:45 AM - Re: 701 flap angle choices (BokKat)
3. 09:39 AM - Re: Re: 701 Flap Angle choices (carl)
4. 09:42 AM - Re: Door tube frames (Peter Dolamore)
5. 10:41 AM - Chat Room Reminder (George Race)
6. 12:40 PM - 701 flap angle choices (Joe Spencer)
7. 01:04 PM - 701 Flap angle choices (Joe Spencer)
8. 01:40 PM - Re: 701 Flap Angle choices (kmccune)
9. 06:05 PM - Re: Re: Zenith CH750 Detail Pictures (Joemotis@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Flap Angle choices |
Anybody have a view on this issue as for the 801?
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 12:10 AM, Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello Kevin,
>
> First hand experience: Is not needed at all, in fact dangerous. We made
> the flap handle with the 3 slots, only reason: "Why not? Was there in the
> older planes"
> When we were very confident with the handling of the 701 (lots of landings
> and touch and goes later) when we thought we were very proficient with the
> first slot (15 deg) we tested a few (30) slot aproaches and short
> landings...
>
> The aproach was so steep and the light airplane loosed so much speed
> (inertia) that just imagining an engine failure 30 to 50 feet above the
> ground will give us the feeling of very easy to get in a position of risk of
> breaking the plane and a few bones.
> More than little (too much for me) power and nose down position, is needed
> just to keep tha plane in the 50 mph approach and at flair. No needs for a
> "hands full" situation in flair.
>
> Is better to learn (and practice as much as possible) a good 15deg flap
> approach and short landing technique eficiently, that taking the risk to
> damage the plane (and yourself) seriously with the 30 deg position. There
> are several videos where you can watch efficient short landings in the
> "normal" 701 using the 15 deg position .
>
> In other words, is like depoying a drag chute in the air. For me, not
> practical and really not neaded at all, but is your choice.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower
> 701 912S landing at high altitude (5,000 ft ASL plus) strips.
> 223 hrs and counting.
>
>
> --- On *Sun, 10/26/08, kmccune <kmccune@somtel.net>* wrote:
>
> From: kmccune <kmccune@somtel.net>
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: 701 Flap Angle choices
> To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 9:00 AM
>
> <kmccune@somtel.net>
>
> Didn't the older non SP versions have two flap angle choices with on being
> 30 degrees or so? What was the reason for this change. Mine will have multiple
> settings ala QPS kube kontrol. But is there any advantage to making a setting
> for for a steeper angle like the older models have? I searched the old archive
> but couldn't find the reason for this.
>
>
> Thanks
> Kevin
>
> --------
> Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things
> that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines.
> Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
> Dream. Discover.
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 701 flap angle choices |
I guess the different notches confuse me. The newer kits either have
the flapperons set as 'up' or 'down!' Is tht 0 and 15 degrees??
I assume you added another flapperons notch further than the factory 15
degrees.
To each his/her own I guess, but I find I can land and take off over a
real 50 foot obstacle so short that in all honesty I haven't even messed
with any flapperon setting during the first half of my test flighting.
Haven't even touched the knob yet! If the one and only flap setting
works as advertised during my next 15 hours, I can't see how I'd ever
need anything to land even shorter. Hah!
My kitfox has no "notches' for its flapperons, but is a friction thing
that allows one to set it anywhere you want, so you can fine tune the
settings for speed, use it as a trim tab or put in as much flapperon as
you might want for landing or takeoff.
Like the 701 though, it slips so well and lands so short that although I
fly out of some short strips with big trees at the ends, I can't see
ever having the need to land or take off in even shorter distances.
It's an interesting topic!
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Spencer
To: Zenith701801-List@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 6:44 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: 701 flap angle choices
I added a second notch to mine. I see why Zenith took the second notch
out...while the second setting does add some noticeable stability when
approaching at very slow IAS, it can and does fall out from you without
much warning and the likely result is crunching it if it happens very
high and you don't quickly catch it with power.
Joe
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Flap Angle choices |
Built my 701 in 94 to plans (1/91 -#2226) three notches; UP, 15', 30'..I had
just retired from the Air Force and last experience was fighters and 2.5"
glide slopes. Needless to say getting use to the 701 on approach with power
OFF was traumatic. I eventually got to practice full flap landing on wheels
after about 15 hrs even did a few with power OFF.
During the first 100 hrs I was not too crazy about using full flaps; I did
not believe they helped much on TO or landing. I mainly used the 15' slot.
By then I was on floats and eventually learned that full flaps shortened the
TO by a significant amount. I won't elaborate but it has to do with the fact
that floats prevent rotating to a high angle of attack and therefore the
extra lift from the flaps is a bonus. I now use 30' at all time except in
strong gusty winds and raise to 10' in ground effect after TO.
I found the ZAC flap lever design awkward so made my own (pic attached. with
5 notches, UP, 10', 20', 27', 37'. . I have used the 5th notch a few times
but eventually locked it out with a bolt. Anything above 30' can be
dangerous because it limit role control. With the flappers down much above
30', any further deflection for role control risk stalling the down going
flapper thereby introducing control reversal. Control is possible using
small aileron inputs and aggressive rudder but the benefit of 37' of flaps
is questionable.
On the related subjects of where to rig the flaps and reflexing the flappers
for minimum drag I make the following comments. My brother was a DH Beaver
commercial pilot and on that a/c he could adjust the hydraulically operated
flaps with the hand pump for optimum speed under different loads. I've
experimented with rigging and reflex on my 701 and conclude the following;
1. Optimum adjustment varies with load, C of G, and speed.
2. Without an infinitely adjustable flap lever I rig the flaps and
stab/elevator for my usual cross-country cruise speed.
3. I aim to have the Stab/elevator close to neutral when 2 above is
achieved; the flappers should not be pitching the nose down and the
stab/elevator pitching the nose up or vis versa, that's a speed brake and
not needed in a 701.
Carl
701/912
----- Original Message -----
From: "kmccune" <kmccune@somtel.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 4:24 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 Flap Angle choices
>
> So it was 30 then, the photos I've seen show 3 notches, so maybe the
> builders made a intermediate flap setting? I had guessed that the photos
> showing two notches were of the SP model, guess I should have paid more
> attention.
>
> --------
> Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the
> things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the
> bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your
> sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210386#210386
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Door tube frames |
I found that buying a pulley wheel from my local hardware store worked for
me when I scratch built the 701 frames. I clamped the wheel in a vise and p
laced the 1/2" tube in the pulley grove. With some care and gentle persuasi
on=2C the tube can be formed to the correct radius without kinking the tube
.
Peter. 701 in Ontario=2C Canada - airframe complete and painted - 90% to g
o. > Subject: Zenith701801-List: Door tube frames> From: mark@masterpiec
e-inc.com> Date: Sun=2C 26 Oct 2008 06:58:13 -0700> To: zenith701801-list@m
asterpiece-inc.com>> > Has anyone had any trouble with the pre bent tube fr
ames for the doors? I created the template out of plywood so that the frame
will just tuck inside the door opening. When I match that up to the pre be
nt tube from ZAC it is out. The frame is wider than my template so the tube
would be hitting the sides when closing the doors. Does anyone have advice
on the best way to re bend the 1/2" tubing? I think if I can bend again in
a couple of places I will be able to get it where i need. I have heard of
filling the tube with sugar or something?> > --------> CH701 Builder and ne
w flyer> Rudder=2C HS=2C and Elevator completed> Left wing Complete> 50% co
mplete on Right Wing> 99% Complete on Fuselage> Engine installed almost rea
dy to fire> Instrument panel and electrical Complete> > > > > Read this top
ic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210332#210
================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Message 5
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| Subject: | Chat Room Reminder |
Please join us for our Monday evening chat room starting around 8:00 PM
Eastern Time.
<blocked::blocked::blocked::blocked::blocked::blocked::http://www.mykitairpl
ane.com/chat/> http://www.mykitairplane.com/chat/
George
Do Not Archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | 701 flap angle choices |
I always use the second notch when landing on my 250 foot strip and
usually on the 500 foot strip.
Joe
>To each his/her own I guess, but I find I can land and take off over a
>real 50 foot obstacle so short that in all honesty I haven't even
messed
>with any flapperon setting during the first half of my test flighting
Message 7
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| Subject: | 701 Flap angle choices |
Agreed. I run my elevator down cable as loose as I can stand it to keep
from limiting the aileron travel when using the second notch...since the
elevator cables tighten when extending flaps and applying right aileron
because of the off center control apparatus, effectively restricting
right aileron application. The limited roll control can bite on a low
speed high pitch go around with a 912s, as the left yaw/roll tendency is
strong...maybe another reason ZAC didn't want the 701 operated with the
second notch. I am very careful with pitch/power when going around with
2 notches out...all this from my feeble momory...but I think I got it
right.
Joe
>but eventually locked it out with a bolt. Anything above 30' can be
>dangerous because it limit role control.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Flap Angle choices |
Well thanks for all the input guys, I think I'll build it like the QSP and B.Carls
pictured. I thinking of using 0, 5, 10, 15 and 20 or 25 degrees. The Kube
from QSP has 0, 5, 10, 15 and 20. I may never use the 20/25 setting, but I won't
know if I don't build it, I'm leaning towards the 20 degree to keep the ailerons
effective . I will be building floats down the road, so the 25 may be
a benefit there. And not to worry guys the first bunch of times I'll test it will
be with plenty of recovery room and ONLY after lots and lots of standard
landings. If I don't like it I'll block it off.
Thanks
Kevin
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210593#210593
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith CH750 Detail Pictures |
If you have ever seen the Northrop flying wing its wonderful sounding and
smooth running engines are a pair of Franklins in a pusher configuration. T
he
exhaust note through the props as it climbs out is some of the sweetest mus
ic
I have ever heard.
Off to You Tube!
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60CgYmNb2a8_
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60CgYmNb2a8)
I was at this show!! although this is not my video.
Joe Motis
Do not Archive
In a message dated 10/26/2008 7:51:48 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
bearup@ida.net writes:
--> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "bearup" <bearup@ida.net>
Brady,
I am not positive what these 125 HP Franklin engine will cost once
re-introduced to the US market, but I was told by the Franklin Engine facto
ry
representative last year that there will be a choice between the engine bei
ng
carbureted or fuel injected, and will be in the $14K - $17K range. Franklin
engines
are known for being near sewing machine smooth, and I can attest to this. I
have flown behind Franklin engines in the past, and I know them to be much
more smoother running than Lycominig and Continental engines. This is due t
o a
fluid torsion damper that is integral to the Franklin engine crankshafts. I
recently purchased a very low time Franklin 4A-235 engine for $7,000 and ha
ve a
second one being overhauled by Greg Lucas of www.cglucas.com in Pauls
Vallley, OK.
Check out these benefits of the 125 hp Franklin engine:
FAA Certified - Factory New
Direct Drive - no gear reduction box
Smooth running - low rpm power
Unmatched horsepower / torque ratio
Most Economical engine in its class
Built-in crankshaft torsion damper
Proven Reliability
254 lb-ft torque at 2800 rpm!
RELIABILITY:
These are NEW FAA-certified aircraft engines, not a rebuild of a high time
engine that has been subjected to years of unknown treatment. Because these
engines are used in helicopters (6-cylinder model), where they are turned a
t
3200 RPM, they are under stressed in fixed-wing aircraft where they are
operated at 2800 RPM.
SENSIBLE ENGINEERING:
The cylinders, bearings, valves, lifters, connecting rods, etc., are common
throughout the engine line production, reducing cost and parts inventory
problems. The cylinders have removable sleeves (cost only about $80 each!)
that
are field replaceable, the camshaft is on the bottom of the engine, and the
oil pump is in the sump, so there is less chance of losing its prime and th
e
resulting dry starts, especially in cold weather. There is a removable top
cover on the crankcase so that the inside of the engine can be easily inspe
cted.
The exhaust ports have insulating sleeves to reduce cooling requirements an
d
simplify installation of exhaust manifolds. Further, the engine can be easi
ly
adapted for inverted oil systems.
SMOOTHNESS:
All Franklin/PZL engines have built in fluid damper on the crankshaft which
makes then the smoothest aircraft engines of their size.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210435#210435
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