---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith701801-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 02/26/09: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:51 AM - Re: 701 elevator trim option (kmccune) 2. 04:05 AM - Re: 701 elevator trim option (stepinwolf) 3. 04:15 AM - Re: Long wing (kmccune) 4. 04:18 AM - Re: Long wing (stepinwolf) 5. 04:19 AM - Re: Long wing (kmccune) 6. 04:55 AM - Re: Re: Long wing (Robert Pelland) 7. 05:27 AM - Re: Long wing (Randall J. Hebert) 8. 05:59 AM - Re: 701 elevator trim option (kmccune) 9. 06:03 AM - Re: Long wing (kmccune) 10. 06:06 AM - Re: Long wing (Robert Pelland) 11. 06:11 AM - Re: insurance (mcjon77) 12. 06:34 AM - Re: Re: 701 elevator trim option (Robert Pelland) 13. 06:41 AM - Re: insurance (Paul Tipton) 14. 07:23 AM - "Xtra pistons" (george.mueller@aurora.org) 15. 07:50 AM - Re: Long wing (relentless12) 16. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: Long wing (Robert Pelland) 17. 08:52 AM - Re: Re: Long wing (John Bolding) 18. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: Long wing (LarryMcFarland) 19. 10:05 AM - Re: Re: Long wing (Robert Pelland) 20. 02:20 PM - Re: "Xtra pistons" (Graeme@cole) 21. 02:32 PM - Re: "Xtra pistons" (James Sagerser) 22. 05:01 PM - Re: Re: Long wing (Gary Gower) 23. 05:09 PM - Re: "Xtra pistons" (Graeme@cole) 24. 05:58 PM - Re: Re: Long wing (Robert Pelland) 25. 06:09 PM - Re: Re: 701 elevator trim option (Bob Percival) 26. 06:38 PM - Re: 701 long wing (Dave and Pam Fisher) 27. 07:40 PM - Re: Re: 701 long wing (Robert Pelland) 28. 08:06 PM - Finishing 4130 welded parts (JohnDRead@aol.com) 29. 10:21 PM - Re: Re: insurance (Les Goldner) 30. 11:02 PM - Re: "Xtra pistons" (jetboy) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:07 AM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 elevator trim option From: "kmccune" Yes I would like to see pics of a manual trim also. Kevin do nt archive -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232190#232190 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:05:52 AM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 elevator trim option From: "stepinwolf" Count me in also, for any info on a manual trim setup. I had been thinking about this option for some time, and I'm glad to see that I'm not alone Robert 701 & 750 Scratch -------- Live each day, as if it was your last Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232191#232191 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:42 AM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing From: "kmccune" Here is a pic of a Savannah wing. The Spar doubler is .025 instead of .032 and it is about 500mm longer I also have the instructions to upgrade the Savannah to 1200 gross they do not include changing the doubler. Mostly the attach point and some mods to the fuselage.Also attached is the extended spar on a 701. I have a folder called long wing share for anyone interested, to big to post here. Kevin john.marzulli(at)gmail.co wrote: > Looking those drawings the date in the corner is October of 1992 and the plans reference the 701UL. > > I wonder if these drawings will still hold for the increased gross of the newer plans. > > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > John Marzulli > > -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232192#232192 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/longer_spar_tip_small_544.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/savannah_wing_from_savannah_ca_site_114.jpg ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:18:12 AM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing From: "stepinwolf" Randall, It looks' as though my attempt to merge my reply to your previous message was not a success, so I will try this once again. Robert I am a little younger than you (9 months) Nine months makes you close enough to be in my club. :o) welcome I think the question posed earlier was are you planning to add the 16 inches inboard of the slats. I am a little confused about your use of the word " slats " . Should I read that as being " struts " rather then your use of slats, if that is the case, yes, inboard of the strut attachment on the wing Meaning will you be building a longer SPAR? I have already cut the spars out of .032 to a total length of 3660m One response asked if you were using the Zenith spar or are you building one from scratch. I am riveting my own. I purchased a 3X from " Cleveland ", along with their new 12" back rivet setter, and first impressions are very positive The answer lies in the method of construction. Since the sketch was for the tip end or outboard end it simply added an extender. The tip end is not structurally attached. That is one reason I am not inclined to go with anything that does not add structurally to the wing. I also plan on extending my spar caps as far into the spar tip as I can Adding 16 Inboard or at the root can only be accomplished if you are building from scratch. Definitely from scratch. My disability pension dictate's it can't be done otherwise There are structural issues that you need to be aware of if this is so Randall, as you can see, " This is so " so would you care to elaborate on what additional issues I should know about. ? I will speak to you later this evening, because I am going into my " hanger " ( read that as being my basement ) to skin my stabilizer. This is also something to which I added my own touch. For what it's worth, the mods I have made to the stab, were done before the plans for the 750, were made available. Check attached pic for the two views Robert Pelland 701 & 750 Scratch Trois Rivires, Qubec 819 377-2492 Thank you for your input, and fly safe -------- Live each day, as if it was your last Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232193#232193 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:19:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing From: "kmccune" Robert why the reinforcement on the stabilizer? Kevin -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232194#232194 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:52 AM PST US From: "Robert Pelland" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing Good morning Kevin, I am not quite sure what reinforcement you are referring to, since I posted a photo showing two different configuration of the stabs, that are not quite like the factory design for the 701. If you are referring to the short 45 degree angles I riveted to the tip ribs on the original model, it was simply done to keep everything squared up perfectly for the skinning. These small sections have no use what so ever, once the skin is in place and riveted correctly. On the other hand if it's the double spar modification you are talking about, I reinforced the stab in this way to try and diminish the destructive actions caused by the violent shaking that is seen at low engine speed, or when it is flown from the water. I also replaced the A4 rivets with the stronger A5 on the tip ribs, since these ribs are all that hold the outer hinges to the stabilizer My original thoughts were that it most certainly be much more resilient in this way, and it seems that my impressions were not far off. The reason I say this is because not long after assembling the stab in this fashion, I received my plans for the 750, only to see that the factory had re-designed the stabilizer for the new CH-750 in the exact same way I built mine for the 701, albeit mine is the standard length. There is a very small weight increase, but you would not believe how strong the bare frame is, as compared to the standard build. Hope this answers your question, :o) Best regards Robert Pelland The 701 & 750 Scratch ----- Original Message ----- From: kmccune To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:19 AM Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing Robert why the reinforcement on the stabilizer? Kevin -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232194#232194 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:02 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Long wing From: "Randall J. Hebert" This is not the first time I have confused the s-word Slats, struts, spars etc. No I meant inboard of the struts i.e. at the root Since you are scratch building and have beefed up the web there are no issues I have. The way the earlier posts sounded I thought you would be modifying the root end of the spar. At any rate you sound as though you have it under control. Keep in touch Randall J Hebert From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Pelland Randall, See imbedded text below ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:51 AM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 elevator trim option From: "kmccune" Funny thing is I program, modify and repair automated machinery and the one thing its taught me is simple is better! Here is what I was thinking of using. Kevin -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232202#232202 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/trim_system_2289_298.jpg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:15 AM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing From: "kmccune" Yup it does and now I kinda wish I'd done it, but too late! Thanks Do not archive stepinwolf wrote: > > Hope this answers your question, :o) > > Best regards > Robert Pelland > The 701 & 750 Scratch > > > > > > --- -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232204#232204 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:49 AM PST US From: "Robert Pelland" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Long wing Randall, Don't feel bad about any confusion, age does that to us you know. ;o) I am not planning anything major at the root end of the wing ( kind'a like leave well enough alone ) but I am considering two small changes that would have a long term benefit to the strength of the attachment points. The 701 has the following Upper front strut fitting t=.125 Rear root doubler t=.090 Spar root fitting t- .187 The 750 is using the following thickness, and for a very little increase in weight, it is something I am considering Upper front strut fitting t= .187 Rear root doubler t= .125 Spar root fitting t= .25 Thank's for your encouraging words. I will be posting a s*** load of pics, when the time comes to start assembling ( still a little ways off ) the main wings. Most of my apprehensions about the modifications, and extended wing, disappeared after speaking to Caleb, a month or so ago, since his remarque's sounded as though what I was considering was an everyday, run of the mill thingy. You have my best regards Robert W. Pelland ----- Original Message ----- From: Randall J. Hebert To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:21 AM Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Long wing This is not the first time I have confused the s-word Slats, struts, spars etc. No I meant inboard of the struts i.e. at the root Since you are scratch building and have beefed up the web there are no issues I have. The way the earlier posts sounded I thought you would be modifying the root end of the spar. At any rate you sound as though you have it under control. Keep in touch Randall J Hebert From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Pelland Randall, See imbedded text below ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:47 AM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: insurance From: "mcjon77" Falcon Insurance. They are the company that EAA promotes. I spoke with Bob Mackey from falcon regarding getting my Sonex insured after completion. Those guys know their stuff when it comes to getting an experimental insured. He gave me several good pieces of advice: 1) Pick a known and well regarded kit. He specifically mentioned Zenith, Sonex, Van's, and Ran's. So if you are building a 701 you made a great choice! 2) Talk to your agent early. Don't come calling the day before you want to make your first flight asking about getting coverage. It may be very difficult to get coverage that way. 3)Take advantage of the EAA flight adviser program. This program seams to be held in high regard. 4)Get some time in type. This can be formal transition training or simply "orientation " training where you get some right seat time in another persons 701. If you can't get some 701 time finding a similar aircraft (like a 750) can work as well. Hope this helps. -------- Jon McDonald Building Sonex #1287 Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232209#232209 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:40 AM PST US From: "Robert Pelland" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 elevator trim option Kevin, I like the photo of manual trim control mechanism you posted, but my main worry would be how quick changes could be made in case of a " go-around ". I actually started looking at a system for manually controlling the trim tab to get away from the delay that is seen when using an electric trim controller. I would expect that the one you have just included in your response, might take quite a few turns ( I only have two hands ) to get the trim back to it's take off position. My past experience ( although limited ) has taught me that when landing in conditions that are not necessarily ideal, my two hand and two feet are very busy, so I would not want to be obliged to have to spend too much time turning the knob one way or the other, to try and get the trim tab, back to it's take off position. However in straight and level flight, the use of a screw type of controller would make fine tuning a pleasure. Maby it's just me,,,, and thank's for the pic :o) regards Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: kmccune To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:59 AM Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 elevator trim option Funny thing is I program, modify and repair automated machinery and the one thing its taught me is simple is better! Here is what I was thinking of using. Kevin -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232202#232202 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/trim_system_2289_298.jpg ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:25 AM PST US From: "Paul Tipton" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: insurance Falcon Insurance... 1-866-647-4322 especially if you are a member of EAA and if your not you should be. They are nice people and will work with you. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:22 AM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: "Xtra pistons" From: george.mueller@aurora.org I am anticipating putting my 701 on floats. Originally I was going to sell my 80hp 912UL and buy the 912ULS 100hp. However I have come across a guy who sells high compression forged pistons (called Xtra) for the 912UL that adds 10-15 horsepower. The cost is about $850 for the pistons. This seems to be a more cost effective way to get the extra horsepower for floats (although I have heard from guys with the 80 hp Rotax on floats and they say it really is OK unless you are flying out of really small ponds). Does anyone have any experience with the Xtra pistons? The Xtra guy says he has sold 800 sets of these pistons worldwide. Is there any downside other than voiding the rotax warranty? George in Milwaukee N701GM 60 hour flying ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:56 AM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing From: "relentless12" Hey Robert How thick is the front stabilizer reinforcement... 0.025 or 0.032 [Exclamation] Ron Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232229#232229 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:05 AM PST US From: "Robert Pelland" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing Ron, I made mine out of .020, since I am not using any .016 anywhere on my 701 build. As for the 750, I figure due to it's increased width, and weight of the aircraft, the factory chose to use .025 on the front, and .032, in the rear. regards Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: relentless12 To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 10:47 AM Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing Hey Robert How thick is the front stabilizer reinforcement... 0.025 or 0.032 [Exclamation] Ron Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232229#232229 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:56 AM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing Couple of yrs ago someone on this list figured the square footage of the 016 on the 701 and determined that using 020 everywhere would cost you 68# of payload, I didn't double check his figures but if I was going to do it I sure would. Also gonna move the CG to the rear. LO&SLO John ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Pelland To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing Ron, I made mine out of .020, since I am not using any .016 anywhere on my 701 build. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:50 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing John, Solid aluminum is 165 lbs per cubic foot. Divide that by 12 to get an inch by 12 x 12 or 13.75 lbs divided by 1000 to get weight per 1/1000-inch or .0138 times the difference in thickness between .016 and .020 which is .004 and you get .055 lbs added per square foot. If you only use the 122 sq ft wing area, both top and bottom add up to less than 14 lbs. I dont know the total area of the 701 in .016, but the weight added is easy from here. Id suppose you might consider more pitch or more hp for the weight added though. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com John Bolding wrote: > Couple of yrs ago someone on this list figured the square footage of > the 016 on the 701 and determined that using 020 everywhere would cost > you 68# of payload, I didn't double check his figures but if I was > going to do it I sure would. Also gonna move the CG to the rear. > LO&SLO John > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Robert Pelland > *To:* zenith701801-list@matronics.com > > *Sent:* Thursday, February 26, 2009 10:27 AM > *Subject:* Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing > > Ron, > I made mine out of .020, since I am not using any .016 anywhere on > my 701 build. > > * > > * ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:44 AM PST US From: "Robert Pelland" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing Good day John, and Larry, Here is what I would like to ad to the discussion I had looked into the weight issue a little while back, and was just able to find the manufacturing specs that were given me when I made the purchase. The 4x12 sheet of 6061 in .016, weighs in at a total of 10.83 lbs/per sheet The 4x12 sheet of 6061 in .020, weighs in at a total of 13.55 lbs/per sheet The difference being 2.72 lbs per sheet. Most BOM's specify that a total of between 12 to 13 sheets of .016 are used ( not wasted ) in the complete build of the 701. Using these figures, I should end up with an additional weight of 35.36 lbs . Personally I don't think that it is a large penalty to pay for an approximate increase in strength of 25% over the total airframe. Add to the fact that it's use will most certainly all but eliminate the oil canning that is normally seen, not to mention the creases that can be observed during flight on the main wing sections, with the factory airplane. I just feel that for myself, the extra 35 lbs is something I can live with. Something else I had not originally consider is the wing loading, which even with the additional weight, will be much less then a factory built 701, by using my extended wings. They say variety is the spice of life. :o) regards Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: John Bolding To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:51 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing Couple of yrs ago someone on this list figured the square footage of the 016 on the 701 and determined that using 020 everywhere would cost you 68# of payload, I didn't double check his figures but if I was going to do it I sure would. Also gonna move the CG to the rear. LO&SLO John ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Pelland To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing Ron, I made mine out of .020, since I am not using any .016 anywhere on my 701 build. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:00 PM PST US From: "Graeme@cole" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: "Xtra pistons" I have a set of 912xtra pistons there was a definate incresase in power you change the plugs you use std rotax rings expensive. if you can get them try http://www.experimentalfuelinjection.com/wst_page9.php they come with rings to suit about the same price as 912xtra but may notice a tiny bit more power than912xtra Graemecns ----- Original Message ----- From: george.mueller@aurora.org To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 1:18 AM Subject: Zenith701801-List: "Xtra pistons" I am anticipating putting my 701 on floats. Originally I was going to sell my 80hp 912UL and buy the 912ULS 100hp. However I have come across a guy who sells high compression forged pistons (called Xtra) for the 912UL that adds 10-15 horsepower. The cost is about $850 for the pistons. This seems to be a more cost effective way to get the extra horsepower for floats (although I have heard from guys with the 80 hp Rotax on floats and they say it really is OK unless you are flying out of really small ponds). Does anyone have any experience with the Xtra pistons? The Xtra guy says he has sold 800 sets of these pistons worldwide. Is there any downside other than voiding the rotax warranty? George in Milwaukee N701GM 60 hour flying ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 02/25/09 06:40:00 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:22 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: "Xtra pistons" From: James Sagerser Don't know if auto gas is important to you or not but the higher compression engine might eliminate that option. Something to consider. On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 8:18 AM, wrote: > > I am anticipating putting my 701 on floats. Originally I was going to sell > my 80hp 912UL and buy the 912ULS 100hp. However I have come across a guy > who sells high compression forged pistons (called Xtra) for the 912UL that > adds 10-15 horsepower. The cost is about $850 for the pistons. This seems > to be a more cost effective way to get the extra horsepower for floats > (although I have heard from guys with the 80 hp Rotax on floats and they say > it really is OK unless you are flying out of really small ponds). Does > anyone have any experience with the Xtra pistons? The Xtra guy says he has > sold 800 sets of these pistons worldwide. Is there any downside other than > voiding the rotax warranty? > > > George in Milwaukee > N701GM 60 hour flying > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:49 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing Is better to carry 35 lbs of gasoline than in aluminum,- also the oil can ning is the best "instructor" you can hire, to teach you to keep the ball c entered-:-) - Saludos Gary Gower. 701 912S 235 hrs- almost no oil canning... -recently- :-) - --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Robert Pelland wrote: From: Robert Pelland Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing Good day John, and Larry, - Here is what I would like to ad to the discussion - I had looked into the weight issue a little while back, and was just able t o find the manufacturing specs that were given me when I made the purchase. - The 4x12 sheet of 6061 in .016, weighs in at a total of 10.83 lbs/per sheet - The 4x12 sheet of 6061 in .020, weighs in at a total of 13.55 lbs/per sheet - The difference being 2.72 lbs per sheet.- Most BOM's specify that a total of between 12 to 13 sheets of .016 are used ( not wasted ) in the complete build of the 701.- Using these figures, I should end up with an addition al weight of 35.36 lbs . - Personally I don't think that it is a large penalty to pay for an approxima te increase in strength of 25% over the total airframe. Add to the fact tha t it's use will most certainly all but eliminate the oil canning that is no rmally seen, not to mention the creases that can be observed during flight on the main wing sections,-with the factory airplane. - I just feel that for myself, the extra 35 lbs is something I can live with. - Something else I had not originally-consider is the wing loading, whi ch even with the additional weight, will be much less then a factory built 701, by using my-extended wings. - They say variety is the spice of life. :o) - regards Robert - - ----- Original Message ----- From: John Bolding Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:51 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing Couple of yrs ago someone on this list figured the square footage of the 01 6 on the-701 and determined that using 020 everywhere would cost you 68# of payload, I didn't double check his figures but if I was going to do it I sure would. Also gonna move the CG to the rear. LO&SLO--- John ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Pelland Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing Ron, - I made mine out of .020, since I am not using any .016-anywhere-on my -701 build.- - href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:22 PM PST US From: "Graeme@cole" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: "Xtra pistons" Ref High compression 912xtra pistons I have to use Premium unleaded Graemecns ----- Original Message ----- From: James Sagerser To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 8:29 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: "Xtra pistons" Don't know if auto gas is important to you or not but the higher compression engine might eliminate that option. Something to consider. On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 8:18 AM, wrote: I am anticipating putting my 701 on floats. Originally I was going to sell my 80hp 912UL and buy the 912ULS 100hp. However I have come across a guy who sells high compression forged pistons (called Xtra) for the 912UL that adds 10-15 horsepower. The cost is about $850 for the pistons. This seems to be a more cost effective way to get the extra horsepower for floats (although I have heard from guys with the 80 hp Rotax on floats and they say it really is OK unless you are flying out of really small ponds). Does anyone have any experience with the Xtra pistons? The Xtra guy says he has sold 800 sets of these pistons worldwide. Is there any downside other than voiding the rotax warranty? George in Milwaukee N701GM 60 hour flying ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 02/25/09 06:40:00 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:49 PM PST US From: "Robert Pelland" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing Gary, I'm glad to see I would be able to carry an additional 35 lbs ( 6.03 gallons ) of gasoline. However, once my tanks are full, and I'm still a few hundred pounds below gross weight, where would I put it. ? As I mentioned previously Gary, variety is the spice of life. regards Robert Pelland P.S. After more then two hundred hours in the pilots seat, I have long ago figured out, how to keep the ball centered, so I don't have to sit in a tin can listening to it rattle, to realize my turns are not coordinated. Fly safe amigo :o) ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Gower To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:59 PM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing Is better to carry 35 lbs of gasoline than in aluminum, also the oil canning is the best "instructor" you can hire, to teach you to keep the ball centered :-) Saludos Gary Gower. 701 912S 235 hrs almost no oil canning... recently :-) --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Robert Pelland wrote: From: Robert Pelland Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 1:02 PM Good day John, and Larry, Here is what I would like to ad to the discussion I had looked into the weight issue a little while back, and was just able to find the manufacturing specs that were given me when I made the purchase. The 4x12 sheet of 6061 in .016, weighs in at a total of 10.83 lbs/per sheet The 4x12 sheet of 6061 in .020, weighs in at a total of 13.55 lbs/per sheet The difference being 2.72 lbs per sheet. Most BOM's specify that a total of between 12 to 13 sheets of .016 are used ( not wasted ) in the complete build of the 701. Using these figures, I should end up with an additional weight of 35.36 lbs . Personally I don't think that it is a large penalty to pay for an approximate increase in strength of 25% over the total airframe. Add to the fact that it's use will most certainly all but eliminate the oil canning that is normally seen, not to mention the creases that can be observed during flight on the main wing sections, with the factory airplane. I just feel that for myself, the extra 35 lbs is something I can live with. Something else I had not originally consider is the wing loading, which even with the additional weight, will be much less then a factory built 701, by using my extended wings. They say variety is the spice of life. :o) regards Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: John Bolding To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:51 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing Couple of yrs ago someone on this list figured the square footage of the 016 on the 701 and determined that using 020 everywhere would cost you 68# of payload, I didn't double check his figures but if I was going to do it I sure would. Also gonna move the CG to the rear. LO&SLO John ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Pelland To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Long wing Ron, I made mine out of .020, since I am not using any .016 anywhere on my 701 build. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ist" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List =nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:32 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 elevator trim option From: "Bob Percival" I'm also interested in the mechanical trim details. Also - those of you who have extended the trim, how much? I think Gary Gower went 2x the plan length. What have others done? Thanks Bob Percival 701/Vair Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:55 PM PST US From: Dave and Pam Fisher Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 long wing Hi guys, I think the drawing John is talking about is probably a sketch that Chris sent me in response to my request to extend each wing by one foot for better high altitude operation.( Naturally aspirated engine performance as well as take off and climb performance degrades by about 4% per thousand feet due to the thinner air, I believe.) I've not yet done the mod but I intend to and I'd be very interested in seeing the 1992 701 UL sketch that you have, Robert, could you E-Mail me a copy? I'm also planning a slat less wing with VGs on both the wings and the elevator. In addition, I'm considering a "cuff " that would put the wing nose profile midway between the wing with slats and the wing without but have not yet asked the factory about the " cuff ". Has anyone done anything like this? I'd like to maintain as much wing area as possible without shifting the center of lift too far forward. Thanks! Dave, 701 with A-80-8 Continental At 12:58 AM 2/26/2009, you wrote: >From: "John Bolding" >Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Long wing > >Excellent point, > I have a drawing from CH that shows basically the same treatment on the >tip but the main structural change was lengthening the doubler at the >strut attach point and increasing it's thickness, ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:01 PM PST US From: "Robert Pelland" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 long wing Dave, Here it is, however don't expect too much, so as not to be disappointed. Robert Pelland ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave and Pam Fisher To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:29 PM Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 long wing Hi guys, I think the drawing John is talking about is probably a sketch that Chris sent me in response to my request to extend each wing by one foot for better high altitude operation.( Naturally aspirated engine performance as well as take off and climb performance degrades by about 4% per thousand feet due to the thinner air, I believe.) I've not yet done the mod but I intend to and I'd be very interested in seeing the 1992 701 UL sketch that you have, Robert, could you E-Mail me a copy? I'm also planning a slat less wing with VGs on both the wings and the elevator. In addition, I'm considering a "cuff " that would put the wing nose profile midway between the wing with slats and the wing without but have not yet asked the factory about the " cuff ". Has anyone done anything like this? I'd like to maintain as much wing area as possible without shifting the center of lift too far forward. Thanks! Dave, 701 with A-80-8 Continental At 12:58 AM 2/26/2009, you wrote: >From: "John Bolding" >Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Long wing > >Excellent point, > I have a drawing from CH that shows basically the same treatment on the >tip but the main structural change was lengthening the doubler at the >strut attach point and increasing it's thickness, ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:06 PM PST US From: JohnDRead@aol.com Subject: Zenith701801-List: Finishing 4130 welded parts I was thinking of having the 4130 parts powder coated but I am worried that the oven baking may change the temper of the parts. Is there another method of coating the steel parts that will stand up to wear and tear? John Read CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300 Phone: 303-648-3261 Fax: 303-648-3262 Cell: 719-494-4567 **************Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax professional in your neighborhood today. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000004) ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:16 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: insurance Falcon was a few hundred more than the insurance I got from Travers & Associates in St. Louis. I insured my 701 for $50,000 damage to the plane as well as the liability required by my airport. Les -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mcjon77 Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:12 AM Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: insurance Falcon Insurance. They are the company that EAA promotes. I spoke with Bob Mackey from falcon regarding getting my Sonex insured after completion. Those guys know their stuff when it comes to getting an experimental insured. He gave me several good pieces of advice: 1) Pick a known and well regarded kit. He specifically mentioned Zenith, Sonex, Van's, and Ran's. So if you are building a 701 you made a great choice! 2) Talk to your agent early. Don't come calling the day before you want to make your first flight asking about getting coverage. It may be very difficult to get coverage that way. 3)Take advantage of the EAA flight adviser program. This program seams to be held in high regard. 4)Get some time in type. This can be formal transition training or simply "orientation " training where you get some right seat time in another persons 701. If you can't get some 701 time finding a similar aircraft (like a 750) can work as well. Hope this helps. -------- Jon McDonald Building Sonex #1287 Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232209#232209 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:37 PM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: "Xtra pistons" From: "jetboy" Are you aware its possible to turbocharge the 80hp 912 - making it a similar engine to the 914 - the makers of the Xenos gyroplanes do this for some of their models, claiming 122hp for modest cost. Obviously you have to dial in your own tradeoff of power vs. reliability here, and you wont get the sophistication of the 914 TCU or an over the counter bolt on solution, its my preferred powerup path for the 912UL. Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232304#232304 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith701801-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith701801-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith701801-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith701801-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.