Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:45 AM - Re: How Do the Folding Wings Work, and Do You Like Them? (Tommy Walker)
2. 05:09 AM - Re: Re: 701 Incident? (BokKat)
3. 08:15 AM - Re: Re: 701 Incident? (nyterminat@aol.com)
4. 10:04 AM - Re: 701 Incident? (Tommy Walker)
5. 11:20 AM - Re: Re: 701 Incident? (Art Gibeaut)
6. 01:48 PM - Re: Re: 701 Incident? (Les Goldner)
7. 05:08 PM - Re: 701 Incident? (jetboy)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: How Do the Folding Wings Work, and Do You Like |
Them?
Wayne,
I can show you a 701 with foldable wings down in Alex City.
Tommy
Do Not Archive
--------
Tommy Walker
N8701 - Anniston, AL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247784#247784
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Incident? |
Good question Craig. Just keep your speed up on short final. Don't let it
get too slow or you can develop a fairly high rate of descent.
I think pilots get sucked in and develop a false sense of security when they
see that the 701 stalls at 28 - 30 mph and try to glide in "like a Cessna"
at that speed. Sure, they stall at less than 30mph but only with a nose
high attitude and lots of power to drag it in, which is not a normal landing
in my opinion.
So my advice, for what its worth after only 50 hours or so, is to just carry
a little more speed and you'll be fine. If you tend to have an aft of
center CG, which I think some planes do with BRS's mounted way back and
stuff in the baggage compartment, then carry a little bit more speed to
compensate.
The bottom line, is land a bit faster than you might think is necessary for
a STOL plane, especially without power. No matter what you do in a dead
stick landing, you probably won't get hurt, but no point dropping the plane
in and wrecking it either.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:43 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 Incident?
> <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
>>From all I have read the advice is to keep some power in when you land.
>>This
> raises the question: what is the recommended approach to a dead-stick
> landing where you have no power at all?
>
> -- Craig
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tommy
> Walker
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 3:37 PM
> To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 Incident?
>
> <twalker@cableone.net>
>
> Brady,
>
> The only fatality I'm aware of happened in New Mexico. According to what
> I've read, it was a new sport pilot who was buzzing his house and got a
> wing
> too low.
>
> One of the important things that people like me who are transitioning from
> GA to LSA need to work on is short final. These little light airplanes
> will
> get away from you if you aren't careful. I don't think ultralight pilots
> have the same problems because they are used to bouncing around when
> flying
> and landing....
>
> If in doubt, go around. The 701 will get you out of trouble if you don't
> insist on landing when you should go around. This is not a Cessna that
> you
> glide down to the runway.
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> Brady wrote:
>> Tommy,
>> I'm glad to see no one was hurt!
>>
>> then again its hard to get hurt if you're not going very fast. :)
>> I heard some one say there have been NO fatal 701 accidents?
>> Quite a record considering the design was released in 1986?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Brady
>
>
> --------
> Tommy Walker
> N8701 - Anniston, AL
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247730#247730
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Incident? |
Craig,
I have landed with idle power many times. It is very useful as you come over tall
objects at the approach end of a short runway. ?As BobKat has said keep the
speed up ( I use about 55-60 ) and don't flair until your sphinter starts to
pucker. The speed bleeds? off quickly and she will set right down without much
of a bump. It is much like a helicopter autorotation, when you pull the collective
at the last moment to get the lift out of the blades. Just takes some practice,
best to be done in the air first.
Bob Spudis
N701ZX
CH701/912S/174hrs
?
Good question Craig. Just keep your speed up on short final. Don't let it get too
slow or you can develop a fairly high rate of descent.?
I think pilots get sucked in and develop a false sense of security when they see
that the 701 stalls at 28 - 30 mph and try to glide in "like a Cessna" at that
speed. Sure, they stall at less than 30mph but only with a nose high attitude
and lots of power to drag it in, which is not a normal landing in my opinion.?
So my advice, for what its worth after only 50 hours or so, is to just carry a
little more speed and you'll be fine. If you tend to have an aft of center CG,
which I think some planes do with BRS's mounted way back and stuff in the baggage
compartment, then carry a little bit more speed to compensate.?
The bottom line, is land a bit faster than you might think is necessary for a STOL
plane, especially without power. No matter what you do in a dead stick landing,
you probably won't get hurt, but no point dropping the plane in and wrecking
it either.?
?
-----Original Message-----
From: BokKat <bobkat@btinet.net>
Sent: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 7:57 am
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 Incident?
?
Good question Craig. Just keep your speed up on short final. Don't let it get too
slow or you can develop a fairly high rate of descent.?
I think pilots get sucked in and develop a false sense of security when they see
that the 701 stalls at 28 - 30 mph and try to glide in "like a Cessna" at that
speed. Sure, they stall at less than 30mph but only with a nose high attitude
and lots of power to drag it in, which is not a normal landing in my opinion.?
So my advice, for what its worth after only 50 hours or so, is to just carry a
little more speed and you'll be fine. If you tend to have an aft of center CG,
which I think some planes do with BRS's mounted way back and stuff in the baggage
compartment, then carry a little bit more speed to compensate.?
The bottom line, is land a bit faster than you might think is necessary for a STOL
plane, especially without power. No matter what you do in a dead stick landing,
you probably won't get hurt, but no point dropping the plane in and wrecking
it either.?
?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>?
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:43 PM?
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 Incident??
?
>?
>>From all I have read the advice is to keep some power in when you land. >>This?
> raises the question: what is the recommended approach to a dead-stick?
> landing where you have no power at all??
>?
> -- Craig?
>?
> -----Original Message-----?
> From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com?
> [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tommy?
> Walker?
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 3:37 PM?
> To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com?
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 Incident??
>?
> <twalker@cableone.net>?
>?
> Brady,?
>?
> The only fatality I'm aware of happened in New Mexico. According to what?
> I've read, it was a new sport pilot who was buzzing his house and got a > wing?
> too low.?
>?
> One of the important things that people like me who are transitioning from?
> GA to LSA need to work on is short final. These little light airplanes > will?
> get away from you if you aren't careful. I don't think ultralight pilots?
> have the same problems because they are used to bouncing around when > flying?
> and landing....?
>?
> If in doubt, go around. The 701 will get you out of trouble if you don't?
> insist on landing when you should go around. This is not a Cessna that > you?
> glide down to the runway.?
>?
> DO NOT ARCHIVE?
>?
>?
>?
> Brady wrote:?
>> Tommy,?
>> I'm glad to see no one was hurt!?
>>?
>> then again its hard to get hurt if you're not going very fast. :)?
>> I heard some one say there have been NO fatal 701 accidents??
>> Quite a record considering the design was released in 1986??
>>?
>> Cheers,?
>> Brady?
>?
>?
> --------?
> Tommy Walker?
> N8701 - Anniston, AL?
>?
>?
>?
>?
> Read this topic online here:?
>?
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247730#247730?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
> ?
?
?
?
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Incident? |
Good Advice Bob.
I usually keep 3000, 3200 rpm on the rotax until I get just off the run way and
then pull back on the throttle and the stick at about 50 mph. I pretty much
fly final at flap setting, around 60. With 3000-3200 rpm on your Rotax you will
have plenty of air moving over the tail and can control your descent pretty
good. Seems like the wheels touch the runway at about 40 mph, still with a little
throttle.
A fellow on another list took me to task for saying you control speed with elevator
and altitude with throttle, but that's how it works for me.
Tommy Walker in Alabama
Do Not Archive the ramblings of an old retired school teacher.
nyterminat(at)aol.com wrote:
> Craig,
> I have landed with idle power many times. It is very useful as you come over
tall objects at the approach end of a short runway. As BobKat has said keep
the speed up ( I use about 55-60 ) and don't flair until your sphinter starts
to pucker. The speed bleeds off quickly and she will set right down without much
of a bump. It is much like a helicopter autorotation, when you pull the collective
at the last moment to get the lift out of the blades. Just takes some
practice, best to be done in the air first.
> Bob Spudis
> N701ZX
> CH701/912S/174hrs
>
> >
> > Good question Craig. Just keep your speed up on short final. Don't let it
get too slow or you can develop a fairly high rate of descent.
> > I think pilots get sucked in and develop a false sense of security when they
see that the 701 stalls at 28 - 30 mph and try to glide in "like a Cessna"
at that speed. Sure, they stall at less than 30mph but only with a nose high attitude
and lots of power to drag it in, which is not a normal landing in my opinion.
> > So my advice, for what its worth after only 50 hours or so, is to just carry
a little more speed and you'll be fine. If you tend to have an aft of center
CG, which I think some planes do with BRS's mounted way back and stuff in the
baggage compartment, then carry a little bit more speed to compensate.
> > The bottom line, is land a bit faster than you might think is necessary for
a STOL plane, especially without power. No matter what you do in a dead stick
landing, you probably won't get hurt, but no point dropping the plane in and
wrecking it either.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
--------
Tommy Walker
N8701 - Anniston, AL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247838#247838
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Incident? |
He should not have taken you to task, that is exactly how I was taught by my CFI
who was a pilot for over 50 years. He learned that flying fighters in WWII.
"Speed with pitch, altitude with power especially on final"--I can still hear
him yelling in my ear.
--- On Fri, 6/12/09, Tommy Walker <twalker@cableone.net> wrote:
> From: Tommy Walker <twalker@cableone.net>
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 Incident?
> To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 12:03 PM
> --> Zenith701801-List message
> posted by: "Tommy Walker" <twalker@cableone.net>
>
> Good Advice Bob.
>
> I usually keep 3000, 3200 rpm on the rotax until I get just
> off the run way and then pull back on the throttle and the
> stick at about 50 mph. I pretty much fly final at flap
> setting, around 60. With 3000-3200 rpm on your Rotax
> you will have plenty of air moving over the tail and can
> control your descent pretty good. Seems like the
> wheels touch the runway at about 40 mph, still with a little
> throttle.
>
> A fellow on another list took me to task for saying you
> control speed with elevator and altitude with throttle, but
> that's how it works for me.
>
> Tommy Walker in Alabama
>
> Do Not Archive the ramblings of an old retired school
> teacher.
>
>
>
>
> nyterminat(at)aol.com wrote:
> > Craig,
> > I have landed with idle power many times. It is
> very useful as you come over tall objects at the approach
> end of a short runway. As BobKat has said keep the
> speed up ( I use about 55-60 ) and don't flair until your
> sphinter starts to pucker. The speed bleeds off
> quickly and she will set right down without much of a bump.
> It is much like a helicopter autorotation, when you pull the
> collective at the last moment to get the lift out of the
> blades. Just takes some practice, best to be done in the air
> first.
> > Bob Spudis
> > N701ZX
> > CH701/912S/174hrs
> >
> "BokKat"
> > >
> > > Good question Craig. Just keep your speed
> up on short final. Don't let it get too slow or you can
> develop a fairly high rate of descent.
> > > I think pilots get sucked in and develop a
> false sense of security when they see that the 701 stalls at
> 28 - 30 mph and try to glide in "like a Cessna" at that
> speed. Sure, they stall at less than 30mph but only with a
> nose high attitude and lots of power to drag it in, which is
> not a normal landing in my opinion.
> > > So my advice, for what its worth after only
> 50 hours or so, is to just carry a little more speed and
> you'll be fine. If you tend to have an aft of center CG,
> which I think some planes do with BRS's mounted way back and
> stuff in the baggage compartment, then carry a little bit
> more speed to compensate.
> > > The bottom line, is land a bit faster than
> you might think is necessary for a STOL plane, especially
> without power. No matter what you do in a dead stick
> landing, you probably won't get hurt, but no point dropping
> the plane in and wrecking it either.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
>
>
> --------
> Tommy Walker
> N8701 - Anniston, AL
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247838#247838
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Zenith701801-List Email Forum -
> FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> List Contribution Web Site -
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Incident? |
Ralph,
Are you sure about putting down flaps in a dead stick landing when you are
trying to extend the glide???
My understanding is that the flaps add a lot of drag. I may put the flaps
out just before flairing out to slow me down if I have the speed to handle
it (55kts or better on flair won't give excess negative VS is I flair but
will slow me down), but never during the glide!... The glide at 45Kt with
flaps will drop my 701 into a much shorter glide than I can do at 55Kts
without flaps.
Have you actually done this with engine-out or are you just giving advice
freely?
Pls explain. What engine do you have, what is your empty weight, and where
is your empty CG?
I have made dead stick landings, dropping from 8000' to 100'in my 701. My
numbers are: 912ULS, 680 empty, and GC is back fairly far, about 20mm from
the back of the allowed window (BRS behind the baggage area). Note someone
said the prop will stop if the engine is off. Again, not the case. It won't
stop on my plane until I nose-up for a few seconds and bleed off some speed.
Les
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jetboy
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:25 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: 701 Incident?
Forced landings: the various 'draft' POH manuals have not been oficially
updated in years, and contain some contradictions.
The one thing that makes the 701 different (and effective as a STOL) is the
pitch authority of the elevator when driven by propwash.
My optimum glide is clean at 40 KTs
In practice I have 3 options for forced landings.
1/ If the available landing area is long and close, dive to loose height and
flare smoothly, holding altitude near ground level, washing off excess
speed. This provides the most positive control, and allows placement into
tight spots with little or no increase to landing stop distance.
2/ For longest glide, maintain minimum of 40 KTs clean, or preferably use 45
to 50KTs with flap, flare abruptly and fully for the arrival. 50KTs provides
a much more controllable situation, as timing and rate of the flare is less
critical. As I'm averse to unnecessarily repairing nosegear, I have not
practiced for speeds lower than 45KTs.
3/ If no suitable area is within gliding distance, it is possible to hold
full aft elevator and glide at a higher descent rate but with the lowest
forward speed. There is no way to arrest the descent or control the
touchdown in some circumstances it may be the best outcome.
Ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247745#247745
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Incident? |
Les,
My wording was ambiguous and meant to say, for the longest stretch of glide, to
use 40KTs minimum, clean. This was the measured best glide for my airframe. I'm
never comfortable using it, because the flare is going to be difficult. For
conditions where glide range cannot be reliably estimated - that is most days
where wind directions, locations of sink and thermals are not known, better control
of the approach is made with 50KTs and with flap down early or not at all,
to allow concentration on setting the flare. I wanted to get across the 701
is not like a Cessna (and I owned a straightback 150 for 12 years so know a
thing or two about them) with the low inertia there is more room for upset in
the approach leading to irrecoverable sink rate on the other hand speed is easily
shed at the flare so I rather take the shorter, closer forced landing fast
than attempt to stretch a glide that may not be realizable for a more attractive
strip.
I have done 45KTs flap down and 50Kts both clean and flap down with prop windmilling
- The Jabiru prop has not stopped during the six episodes of interrupted
fuelflow I have experienced.
I have a rev.4 airframe, that is the 1100 lbs weight with 0 and 16 degrees flap
settings and a Jabiru 2200 engine
empty weight is 590 lbs and CG is 21% MAC and on the rear line 35% MAC at full
fuel 85 Ltrs and crew, with about 20 lbs to spare for fwd cabin baggage. yes
my PC925 battery is with the engine.
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247898#247898
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