Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:39 AM - Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? (John Marzulli)
2. 06:23 AM - Chat Room Reminder for "Digesters" (George Race)
3. 06:40 AM - Re: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? (MacDonald Doug)
4. 06:53 AM - Re: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? (Keith Ashcraft)
5. 07:06 AM - Re: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? (Keith Ashcraft)
6. 07:42 AM - Re: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? (MacDonald Doug)
7. 10:05 AM - Re: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? (Craig Payne)
8. 10:22 AM - Re: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? (John Marzulli)
9. 01:57 PM - Re: Re: Landings at idle. (Les Goldner)
10. 07:36 PM - Re: Re: 801 accident (Gary Gower)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? |
I found a MS Sidewinder 3D Pro joystick for a few bucks. It is comfortable
and and used a gameport connector so I figured it would be simple on the
inside.
After ripping it apart I found that the grip had 8 buttons: A trigger, 3 on
the top and a hat stick.
There are eight buttons, but only six wires leading to the board that the
momentary switches are mounted on.
After spending some time with a multimeter I found that the four traditional
buttons used a red colored wire as a common power and four separate grounds
( yellow, blue, green and orange ).
The hat switch used a common brown wire for power and the same 4 colored
grounds! My guess is that power was switched quickly between the red and
brown wires and one of the ICs on the main board kept track of the previous
buttons states.
So my question - has anyone used this stick successfully as a grip? If I
only wanted two buttons then this would be easy, but I want to use the four
main buttons plus the hat for the elevator trim.
Any advice?
Thanks,
John Marzulli
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
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| Subject: | Chat Room Reminder for "Digesters" |
Live Chat Room every Monday evening around 8:00 EDT
www.mykitairplane.com <http://www.mykitairplane.com/>
Click on the Chat Room link on the page.
George
Do Not Archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? |
John, I won't claim to be an expert in computer joysticks but I think I have some
idea what is going on. You have hit on what in known in digital electronic
as the "active state". In this case since the common wires are hot, this means
that the joystick is "active high". Essentially, when you connect the pin
of the chip to a high value voltage (ususally +5V), then that function will be
active.
I'm basing this strictly on what you described and not on any actual measurements.
You should be able to connect the common "power" wires to ground and then
connect each of the wires to the functions that you want them to run ie, trigger
to radio PTT, etc. Essentially by doing this, you will convert the joystick
from active high to active low which is what our airplanes typically use.
Hope this helps
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Sctartch builder
NW Ontario, Canada
Do not archive
--- On Sun, 6/21/09, John Marzulli <john.marzulli@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: John Marzulli <john.marzulli@gmail.com>
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions?
> To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> Received: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 2:38 AM
> I found a MS Sidewinder 3D Pro
> joystick for a few bucks. It is comfortable and and used a
> gameport connector so I figured it would be simple on the
> inside.
>
> After ripping it apart I found that the grip had 8 buttons:
> A trigger, 3 on the top and a hat stick.
>
>
> There are eight buttons, but only six wires leading to the
> board that the momentary switches are mounted on.
>
> After spending some time with a multimeter I found that the
> four traditional buttons used a red colored wire as a common
> power and four separate grounds ( yellow, blue, green and
> orange ).
>
>
> The hat switch used a common brown wire for power and the
> same 4 colored grounds! My guess is that power was switched
> quickly between the red and brown wires and one of the ICs
> on the main board kept track of the previous buttons
> states.
>
>
> So my question - has anyone used this stick successfully as
> a grip? If I only wanted two buttons then this would be
> easy, but I want to use the four main buttons plus the hat
> for the elevator trim.
>
> Any advice?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Marzulli
__________________________________________________________________
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? |
John,
I would take it that the 4-wires are not ground, but used as 4 separate switch
inputs. That way you can use an IC that has either internal pull-ups or pull-down
resistors to detect switch closure. Depending on how much current the switches
can handle, and how much current your load is, you can use the common "red"
as power, and then wire up each circuit to drive with each switch, "however,
see what the current rating is on the switches and your load before attempting
this". If there is too much current draw, than the wire will act as a fuseable
link, and/or your switch will burn up.
Keith
****************************************************************
________________________________
From: John Marzulli <john.marzulli@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 1:38:21 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions?
I found a MS Sidewinder 3D Pro joystick for a few bucks. It is comfortable and
and used a gameport connector so I figured it would be simple on the inside.
After ripping it apart I found that the grip had 8 buttons: A trigger, 3 on the
top and a hat stick.
There are eight buttons, but only six wires leading to the board that the momentary
switches are mounted on.
After spending some time with a multimeter I found that the four traditional buttons
used a red colored wire as a common power and four separate grounds ( yellow,
blue, green and orange ).
The hat switch used a common brown wire for power and the same 4 colored grounds!
My guess is that power was switched quickly between the red and brown wires
and one of the ICs on the main board kept track of the previous buttons states.
So my question - has anyone used this stick successfully as a grip? If I only wanted
two buttons then this would be easy, but I want to use the four main buttons
plus the hat for the elevator trim.
Any advice?
Thanks,
John Marzulli
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? |
I think, that if the PTT switch can have a common ground, than you can use other
switches that are tied to the "Common" wire, but, if the PTT is used as a separate
switch, then only one switch can be used from the switch matrix. It might
be easy enough to wire an individual switch alone and use it for the PTT function.
Does this make sense?
I have not gotten far enough to worry about PTT circuits yet, so I don't know if
one of the legs from the switch is common ground or not.
Keith
*********************************************************
________________________________
From: MacDonald Doug <dougsnash@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 7:32:06 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions?
John, I won't claim to be an expert in computer joysticks but I think I have some
idea what is going on. You have hit on what in known in digital electronic
as the "active state". In this case since the common wires are hot, this means
that the joystick is "active high". Essentially, when you connect the pin
of the chip to a high value voltage (ususally +5V), then that function will be
active.
I'm basing this strictly on what you described and not on any actual measurements.
You should be able to connect the common "power" wires to ground and then
connect each of the wires to the functions that you want them to run ie, trigger
to radio PTT, etc. Essentially by doing this, you will convert the joystick
from active high to active low which is what our airplanes typically use.
Hope this helps
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Sctartch builder
NW Ontario, Canada
Do not archive
--- On Sun, 6/21/09, John Marzulli <john.marzulli@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: John Marzulli <john.marzulli@gmail.com>
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions?
> To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> Received: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 2:38 AM
> I found a MS Sidewinder 3D Pro
> joystick for a few bucks. It is comfortable and and used a
> gameport connector so I figured it would be simple on the
> inside.
>
> After ripping it apart I found that the grip had 8 buttons:
> A trigger, 3 on the top and a hat stick.
>
>
> There are eight buttons, but only six wires leading to the
> board that the momentary switches are mounted on.
>
> After spending some time with a multimeter I found that the
> four traditional buttons used a red colored wire as a common
> power and four separate grounds ( yellow, blue, green and
> orange ).
>
>
> The hat switch used a common brown wire for power and the
> same 4 colored grounds! My guess is that power was switched
> quickly between the red and brown wires and one of the ICs
> on the main board kept track of the previous buttons
> states.
>
>
> So my question - has anyone used this stick successfully as
> a grip? If I only wanted two buttons then this would be
> easy, but I want to use the four main buttons plus the hat
> for the elevator trim.
>
> Any advice?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Marzulli
__________________________________________________________________
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? |
Kieth, generally speaking, most intercom/radios short one of the conductors in
the mic plug to the mic plug ground to activate the PTT function. I know that
with my Flightcom intercom, I have a pilot and a co-pilot PTT wire but they return
back to one common ground point. This meant that I only had to run one
ground wire from my "Y" stick back the my intercom.
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch Builder
NW Ontario, Canada
Do not archive
--- On Sun, 6/21/09, Keith Ashcraft <ch701builder@yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: Keith Ashcraft <ch701builder@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions?
> To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> Received: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 8:58 AM
> I think, that if the PTT
> switch can have a common ground, than you can use other
> switches that are tied to the "Common" wire, but,
> if the PTT is used as a separate switch, then only one
> switch can be used from the switch matrix. It might be easy
> enough to wire an individual switch alone and use it for the
> PTT function.
>
> Does this make sense?
>
> I have not gotten far enough to worry about PTT circuits
> yet, so I don't know if one of the legs from the
> switch is common ground or not.
>
> Keith
__________________________________________________________________
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? |
It sounds like it is wired as a switch matrix, 2 by 4 in this case. This is
a common approach to save wires on a keyboard. On your 102 key PC keyboard
there are not 102 wires running to the encoder IC. The keys are scanned by
selectively powering the inputs on one side of the matrix and watching which
wire on the output side is active. This works great until you close more
than one switch at the same time. Then you get a "sneak path" through the
matrix and everything gets confused.
If all you have are single contact closures then you will need some external
logic or relays to operate the trim servo. It needs either a DPDT or two
SPDT switches to be able to apply power with one polarity or another. Take a
look at the schematics on the Ray Allen site to see what I mean. Of course
if you are going to have two trim "stations" (like pilot/copilot or
stick/panel) then you will need some relays anyway.
In general I wouldn't use the MS stick. The Ray Allen grips are not that
expensive and use industrial grade sealed switches. They also easily clamp
to the stick tube.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Marzulli
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 1:38 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions?
I found a MS Sidewinder 3D Pro joystick for a few bucks. It is comfortable
and and used a gameport connector so I figured it would be simple on the
inside.
After ripping it apart I found that the grip had 8 buttons: A trigger, 3 on
the top and a hat stick.
There are eight buttons, but only six wires leading to the board that the
momentary switches are mounted on.
After spending some time with a multimeter I found that the four traditional
buttons used a red colored wire as a common power and four separate grounds
( yellow, blue, green and orange ).
The hat switch used a common brown wire for power and the same 4 colored
grounds! My guess is that power was switched quickly between the red and
brown wires and one of the ICs on the main board kept track of the previous
buttons states.
So my question - has anyone used this stick successfully as a grip? If I
only wanted two buttons then this would be easy, but I want to use the four
main buttons plus the hat for the elevator trim.
Any advice?
Thanks,
John Marzulli
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? |
I spent 8 years as a video game programmer, so using this stick would be on
e
of those little touches... and it is just plain comfortable.
The four wires are indeed grounds. There is a diode on the little mini PCB
board.
I think the main IC in the base alternated the common power switch and then
just kept the results in 8 bits of RAM so a pulled trigger would persist
when power was alternated away.
John Marzulli
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 10:03 AM, Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>wrote
:
> It sounds like it is wired as a switch matrix, 2 by 4 in this case. This
> is a common approach to save wires on a keyboard. On your 102 key PC
> keyboard there are not 102 wires running to the encoder IC. The keys are
> scanned by selectively powering the inputs on one side of the matrix and
> watching which wire on the output side is active. This works great until
you
> close more than one switch at the same time. Then you get a =93sneak path
=94
> through the matrix and everything gets confused.
>
>
> If all you have are single contact closures then you will need some
> external logic or relays to operate the trim servo. It needs either a DPD
T
> or two SPDT switches to be able to apply power with one polarity or anoth
er.
> Take a look at the schematics on the Ray Allen site to see what I mean. O
f
> course if you are going to have two trim =93stations=94 (like pilot/copil
ot or
> stick/panel) then you will need some relays anyway.
>
>
> In general I wouldn=92t use the MS stick. The Ray Allen grips are not tha
t
> expensive and use industrial grade sealed switches. They also easily clam
p
> to the stick tube.
>
>
> -- Craig
>
>
> *From:* owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *John Marzull
i
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 21, 2009 1:38 AM
> *To:* zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Zenith701801-List: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions?
>
>
> I found a MS Sidewinder 3D Pro joystick for a few bucks. It is comfortab
le
> and and used a gameport connector so I figured it would be simple on the
> inside.
>
> After ripping it apart I found that the grip had 8 buttons: A trigger, 3
on
> the top and a hat stick.
>
> There are eight buttons, but only six wires leading to the board that the
> momentary switches are mounted on.
>
> After spending some time with a multimeter I found that the four
> traditional buttons used a red colored wire as a common power and four
> separate grounds ( yellow, blue, green and orange ).
>
> The hat switch used a common brown wire for power and the same 4 colored
> grounds! My guess is that power was switched quickly between the red and
> brown wires and one of the ICs on the main board kept track of the previo
us
> buttons states.
>
> So my question - has anyone used this stick successfully as a grip? If I
> only wanted two buttons then this would be easy, but I want to use the fo
ur
> main buttons plus the hat for the elevator trim.
>
> Any advice?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Marzulli
>
> http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
> http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
> http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
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>
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>
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>
> **
>
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>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
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> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Landings at idle. |
Ron,
You don't need VGs to land dead stick. I have no trouble coming in with the
engine shut down (not just "power-off"), and I'm certainly not the best 701
pilot in this area. I start to flair at 60-MPH, 10-degree flaps, nose-up
until it drops in. No problems even with 20-gal aboard! (FYI, N67MG has
Rotax 912ULS and weights 700# w/BRS behind baggage area and about 25# of
tools & gear plus the battery near the fire wall to counter the back CG
caused by chute)
Les
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ronlee
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 9:02 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Landings at idle.
I totally agree with Gary about the power off landings. I land my 701 power
off all the time. The power comes off at the numbers, the flaps down all the
way, maintain airspeed all the way down. One must not flare high as the
flying speed deteriorates very quickly and you are all done flying. I fly
very close to the runway on down wind and try to not have to add power
before touchdown, it is rare that I do. I will admit the one thing that made
my 701 much easier to land was the removal of the slats and installing
vortex generators. They helped in not slowing the plane so quickly on flare
thereby giving me a bit more float time before actual wheels down.
--------
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248711#248711
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 801 accident |
I am using the caps original from the kit...- They work OK... 240 hrs fly
ing...
-
I am sure the caps suplied are inspected by ZAC personel...- Can you post
a photo of the cap that has a problem?- I will like to see it...- Prob
ably need just a little "debure" to clean the vents...
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
701 912S- 240 hrs...- no problem yet, (Knock wood)...- Happy kit buil
der.
--- On Fri, 6/19/09, n85ae <n85ae@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: n85ae <n85ae@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: 801 accident
Not that this is even remotely related to why the airplane in the report
crashed, but I'd be seriously looking at the fuel caps. After looking long
and hard at my fuel caps, at least one of mine has the internal metal
stamping done so crudely that the vents are effectively blocked. The
rest are pretty bad as well.
So I'm reworking mine, similar in fashion to my Kitfox's with with
the little forward facing pitot style tubes.
Another item, I can't believe Zenith delivers with the kit.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249101#249101
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