---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith701801-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 07/20/09: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:12 AM - Re: Re: VGs (BokKat) 2. 06:11 AM - Chat Room Reminder (George Race) 3. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: VGs (Jay Parker) 4. 11:12 AM - Re: Re: VGs (Jon Croke) 5. 11:28 AM - Re: Re: VGs (John Marzulli) 6. 12:43 PM - Re: Re: VGs (Mark Sherman) 7. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: VGs (JG) 8. 03:01 PM - Re: VGs (ronlee) 9. 03:09 PM - vortex generators (Alvin Rose) 10. 03:34 PM - Re: vortex generators (Ken Arnold) 11. 03:34 PM - Re: Re: VGs (BokKat) 12. 03:36 PM - Re: Re: VGs (Ken Arnold) 13. 04:08 PM - Re: vg's. (Gary Gower) 14. 05:18 PM - Re: vg's. (Mark Sherman) 15. 07:19 PM - Re: vortex generators (n801bh@netzero.com) 16. 08:47 PM - Re: VGs (MacDonald Doug) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:24 AM PST US From: "BokKat" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs I put JG's VG's on the tail and yes, they really do work! Fantastic, as a matter of fact. Next project is to pick a nice day and run all my V speeds with and without the slats, and then with the wing VG's. It will be interesting to see what I find out. Unfortunately my plane is not painted yet so I might have to put them on, then take them off for painting, then back on again. Oh well, I love to tinker anyway.... Hope to meet some of you guys in Oshkosh. I wonder if there is some way of identifying the guys on Matronics who will undoubtedly be hanging around the Zenith Display - everybody wear some wierd bit of clothing, a particular hat or something simple so Joe builder could say "Hey, there's a guy with an A5 rivet through his left ear and a silver cleco through the right side of his nose so he must be one of those reprobates on the Matronics 701/801 group - I'd better go meet him!" LOL Anyone have any ideas for a simple ID method? ----- Original Message ----- From: JG To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs Ron, You got the earliest Stolspeed VGs. Since then they've been considerably strengthened. I'll send you replacements, no charge. Anyone else with the early Stolspeed VGs that have broken, let me know and I'll replace them with the newer ones, no charge. JG On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 12:05 AM, ronlee wrote: I have had home made ones that I made that look just like the ones Zenith is selling. I have these on the underside of the elevator on my 701 and they work fine. I have the plastic vgs on my wings and they too work fine. I have broken two of the plastic in two years so they certainly aren't as durable as aluminum. I pressed my original aluminum vgs myself for a Ttitan I sold. I had enough left to do the elevator on the 701, that is the reason I have them only on the elevator. It was lots of work to make all those aluminum vgs, that is the reason I now have a combination of each on my plane. Had the aluminum been available when I bought the plastic I certainly would have done that instead of plastic -------- Ron Lee Tucson, Arizona Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253709#253709 h as List Un/Subscription, www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com Matt Dralle, List Admin. ==== ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:38 AM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: Zenith701801-List: Chat Room Reminder Live Chat Room every Monday evening around 8:00 EDT www.mykitairplane.com Click on the Chat Room link on the page. Need Help Building Your Panel ? Check out my web page for ideas. George Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:51:07 AM PST US From: Jay Parker Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs I've seen the ones that Zenith sells that attach to the elevators and I've seen the SpeedStol's VGs that attach the the forward wings as an alternativ e to-Leading Edge Slats (LES).- I'm sure this is a stupid question to m ost of you experienced flyers, but can you use both or-would it create to o much drag or turbulance-or would it totally screw up the characteristic s of the Zenith STOLs, or do they serve different purposes when they are at tached to the wings as opposed to the elevators.- Opps, that was a whole series of stupid questions in one sentence.- Sorry. -Basically, I just want to know the difference between them.- The ones that Zenith sells, it -appear to still require the LES and appear to help in slow speed landing s, while the ones SpeedStol sells allows for the LES to be taken off with p retty much the same slow landing characteristics as having them on, but-w ith more stability-in flight, slightly higher cruise speeds, and less fue l consumption.- Anyone have any thoughts?=0A=0AJay=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_________ _______________________=0AFrom: BokKat =0ATo: zenith7018 01-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, July 20, 2009 8:11:49 AM=0ASubject: R e: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs=0A=0A=0AI put JG's VG's on the tail and yes, they really do work!- Fantastic, as a matter of fact.--=0A- Next pr oject is to pick a nice day and run all my V speeds with and without the sl ats, and then with the wing VG's.-- It will be interesting to see what I find out.- Unfortunately my plane is not painted yet so I might have to put them on, then take them off for painting, then back on again.-- Oh well, I love to tinker anyway....=0AHope to meet some of you guys in Oshko sh.-- I wonder if there is some way of identifying the guys on Matronic s who will undoubtedly be hanging around the Zenith Display-- everybody w ear some wierd bit of clothing, a particular hat or something simple so Joe builder could say "Hey, there's a guy with an A5 rivet- through his left ear and a silver cleco through the right side of his nose so he must be- one of those reprobates on the-Matronics 701/801 group-- I'd better go meet him!"- LOL=0AAnyone have any ideas for a simple ID method?- =0A--- -- Original Message ----- =0A>From: JG =0A>To: zenith701801-list@matronics. com =0A>Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 9:33 PM=0A>Subject: Re: Zenith701801-Li st: Re: VGs=0A>=0A>=0A>Ron,=0A>=0A>You got the earliest Stolspeed VGs.- S ince then they've been considerably-strengthened.- I'll send you replac ements, no charge.- Anyone else with the early-Stolspeed VGs that have broken, let me know and I'll replace them with the newer ones, no charge. =0A>=0A>JG=0A>=0A>=0A>On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 12:05 AM, ronlee =0A>>=0A>>I have had home made ones that I made that lo ok just like the ones Zenith is selling. I have these on the underside of t he elevator on my 701 and they work fine. I have the plastic vgs on my wing s and they too work fine. I have broken two of the plastic in two years so they certainly aren't as durable as aluminum. I pressed my original aluminu m vgs myself for a Ttitan I sold. I had enough left to do the elevator on t he 701, that is the reason I have them only on the elevator. It was lots of work to make all those aluminum vgs, that is the reason I now have a combi nation of each on my plane. Had the aluminum been available when I bought t he plastic I certainly would have done that instead of plastic=0A>>=0A>>--- -----=0A>>Ron Lee=0A>>Tucson, Arizona=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Read this top ic online here:=0A>>=0A>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2537 09#253709=0A>>h as List Un/Subscription,=0A>>www.matronics.com/Navigator?Ze nith701801-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenit h701801-List=0A>>ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com =0A>>Matt Dralle, List Admin.=0A>>======0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">h ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-Listhref="http://forums.ma tronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A>href="http://www.matronics.co =========== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:12:14 AM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs In the soon to be released Zenair Newsletter & DVD (in approx 2 weeks) Roger at Zenith provides a nice, clear presentation on their VGs: performance and installation. You will enjoy watching this and a bunch of enlightening innterviews from builders at the recent ZAC fly-in at the factory! Jon editor/ Zenair Newsletter www.zenair.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay Parker To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs I've seen the ones that Zenith sells that attach to the elevators and I've seen the SpeedStol's VGs that attach the the forward wings as an alternative to Leading Edge Slats (LES). I'm sure this is a stupid question to most of you experienced flyers, but can you use both or would it create too much drag or turbulance or would it totally screw up the characteristics of the Zenith STOLs, or do they serve different purposes when they are attached to the wings as opposed to the ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:28:16 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs From: John Marzulli Can anyone give their opinion on the difference between the STOLSpeed and Zenith VGs as far as the tail feathers are concerned? Thanks, John Marzulli http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/ http://MarzulliPhoto.net/ http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Jon Croke wrote: > In the soon to be released Zenair Newsletter & DVD (in approx 2 weeks) > Roger at Zenith provides a nice, clear presentation on their VGs: > performance and installation. > > You will enjoy watching this and a bunch of enlightening innterviews from > builders at the recent ZAC fly-in at the factory! > > Jon > editor/ Zenair Newsletter > www.zenair.org > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Jay Parker > *To:* zenith701801-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2009 11:50 AM > *Subject:* Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs > > I've seen the ones that Zenith sells that attach to the elevators and > I've seen the SpeedStol's VGs that attach the the forward wings as an > alternative to Leading Edge Slats (LES). I'm sure this is a stupid question > to most of you experienced flyers, but can you use both or would it create > too much drag or turbulance or would it totally screw up the characteristics > of the Zenith STOLs, or do they serve different purposes when they are > attached to the wings as opposed to the > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:42 PM PST US From: "Mark Sherman" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs It was with the encouragement of Roger and Sebastien at the Cloverdale fly in that I bought the VG's. They didn't say at the time that the VG's were available from Zenith. I bought mine from JG. Mark S. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Croke To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 11:11 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs In the soon to be released Zenair Newsletter & DVD (in approx 2 weeks) Roger at Zenith provides a nice, clear presentation on their VGs: performance and installation. You will enjoy watching this and a bunch of enlightening innterviews from builders at the recent ZAC fly-in at the factory! Jon editor/ Zenair Newsletter www.zenair.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay Parker To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs I've seen the ones that Zenith sells that attach to the elevators and I've seen the SpeedStol's VGs that attach the the forward wings as an alternative to Leading Edge Slats (LES). I'm sure this is a stupid question to most of you experienced flyers, but can you use both or would it create too much drag or turbulance or would it totally screw up the characteristics of the Zenith STOLs, or do they serve different purposes when they are attached to the wings as opposed to the ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:24:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs From: JG Gday Bobkat, Just a tip for mounting the VGs temporarily. Just use a 3/8" strip of adhesive and place the VGs across it side by side and then cut between them. Much easier than cutting all around each, and still plenty of holding power for testing. Have fun tinkering. JG On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 10:11 PM, BokKat wrote: > I put JG's VG's on the tail and yes, they really do work! Fantastic, as > a matter of fact. > Next project is to pick a nice day and run all my V speeds with and > without the slats, and then with the wing VG's. It will be interesting to > see what I find out. Unfortunately my plane is not painted yet so I might > have to put them on, then take them off for painting, then back on again. > Oh well, I love to tinker anyway.... > Hope to meet some of you guys in Oshkosh. I wonder if there is some way > of identifying the guys on Matronics who will undoubtedly be hanging around > the Zenith Display - everybody wear some wierd bit of clothing, a particular > hat or something simple so Joe builder could say "Hey, there's a guy with an > A5 rivet through his left ear and a silver cleco through the right side of > his nose so he must be one of those reprobates on the Matronics 701/801 > group - I'd better go meet him!" LOL > Anyone have any ideas for a simple ID method? > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* JG > *To:* zenith701801-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Sunday, July 19, 2009 9:33 PM > *Subject:* Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs > > Ron, > > You got the earliest Stolspeed VGs. Since then they've been > considerably strengthened. I'll send you replacements, no charge. Anyone > else with the early Stolspeed VGs that have broken, let me know and I'll > replace them with the newer ones, no charge. > > JG > > On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 12:05 AM, ronlee wrote: > >> >> I have had home made ones that I made that look just like the ones Zenith >> is selling. I have these on the underside of the elevator on my 701 and they >> work fine. I have the plastic vgs on my wings and they too work fine. I have >> broken two of the plastic in two years so they certainly aren't as durable >> as aluminum. I pressed my original aluminum vgs myself for a Ttitan I sold. >> I had enough left to do the elevator on the 701, that is the reason I have >> them only on the elevator. It was lots of work to make all those aluminum >> vgs, that is the reason I now have a combination of each on my plane. Had >> the aluminum been available when I bought the plastic I certainly would have >> done that instead of plastic >> >> -------- >> Ron Lee >> Tucson, Arizona >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253709#253709 >> h as List Un/Subscription, >> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List >> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ==== >> >> >> >> > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:01:46 PM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs From: "ronlee" That is very nice of John G. at Stolspeed to offer to replace broken VGs. I have them on my 701( no slats) and they perform excellent. I wouldn't go back to slats on a bet. It's just a much easier plane to fly. -------- Ron Lee Tucson, Arizona Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253979#253979 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:09:16 PM PST US From: "Alvin Rose" Subject: Zenith701801-List: vortex generators Does anyone have a graphics template for construction of the vortex generators similar to Zenairs units..I have the plastic ones on my elevator and they work well on floats..I would like to make the aluminum vg's to try on the elevators and even on the wings with slats removed...want to get more air speed. A.R ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:36 PM PST US From: "Ken Arnold" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: vortex generators AR, Bigger engine. Regards, Ken do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Alvin Rose To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 5:57 PM Subject: Zenith701801-List: vortex generators Does anyone have a graphics template for construction of the vortex generators similar to Zenairs units..I have the plastic ones on my elevator and they work well on floats..I would like to make the aluminum vg's to try on the elevators and even on the wings with slats removed...want to get more air speed. A.R ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:36 PM PST US From: "BokKat" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs Thanks for the report Ron. I'm looking forward to trying mine with no slats and VG's. Most of us fly from pretty long fields anyway, and even if you have to give up a tiny bit STOL performance it's no big deal. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ronlee" Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 5:01 PM Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs > > That is very nice of John G. at Stolspeed to offer to replace broken VGs. > I have them on my 701( no slats) and they perform excellent. I wouldn't go > back to slats on a bet. It's just a much easier plane to fly. > > -------- > Ron Lee > Tucson, Arizona > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253979#253979 > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:33 PM PST US From: "Ken Arnold" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs Heck, just stick'em on any ol' way. What's a little airflow difference in the elevator? I installed mine exactly as specified. Regards, Ken do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: JG To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 4:48 PM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs Gday Bobkat, Just a tip for mounting the VGs temporarily. Just use a 3/8" strip of adhesive and place the VGs across it side by side and then cut between them. Much easier than cutting all around each, and still plenty of holding power for testing. Have fun tinkering. JG On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 10:11 PM, BokKat wrote: I put JG's VG's on the tail and yes, they really do work! Fantastic, as a matter of fact. Next project is to pick a nice day and run all my V speeds with and without the slats, and then with the wing VG's. It will be interesting to see what I find out. Unfortunately my plane is not painted yet so I might have to put them on, then take them off for painting, then back on again. Oh well, I love to tinker anyway.... Hope to meet some of you guys in Oshkosh. I wonder if there is some way of identifying the guys on Matronics who will undoubtedly be hanging around the Zenith Display - everybody wear some wierd bit of clothing, a particular hat or something simple so Joe builder could say "Hey, there's a guy with an A5 rivet through his left ear and a silver cleco through the right side of his nose so he must be one of those reprobates on the Matronics 701/801 group - I'd better go meet him!" LOL Anyone have any ideas for a simple ID method? ----- Original Message ----- From: JG To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs Ron, You got the earliest Stolspeed VGs. Since then they've been considerably strengthened. I'll send you replacements, no charge. Anyone else with the early Stolspeed VGs that have broken, let me know and I'll replace them with the newer ones, no charge. JG On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 12:05 AM, ronlee wrote: I have had home made ones that I made that look just like the ones Zenith is selling. I have these on the underside of the elevator on my 701 and they work fine. I have the plastic vgs on my wings and they too work fine. I have broken two of the plastic in two years so they certainly aren't as durable as aluminum. I pressed my original aluminum vgs myself for a Ttitan I sold. I had enough left to do the elevator on the 701, that is the reason I have them only on the elevator. It was lots of work to make all those aluminum vgs, that is the reason I now have a combination of each on my plane. Had the aluminum been available when I bought the plastic I certainly would have done that instead of plastic -------- Ron Lee Tucson, Arizona Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253709#253709 h as List Un/Subscription, www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com Matt Dralle, List Admin. ==== href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List a>http://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:49 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: vg's. Hello Mark, - I dont use a tire pressure gauge, looses most of the pressure in the test.. .. - What I do is this: - I messure the distance from the upper side of the rim to the top of the tir e (with a square ruler) .- Then I made a piece of wood 80% long of that d istance.- This is my air gauge from the floor to the lower side if the ri m. In case the wheel sides show-little wrinkle (like the dragster rear wheel s) just aply a little more air.- Has worked for me. - Saludos Gary Gower. --- On Sun, 7/19/09, Mark Sherman wrote: From: Mark Sherman Subject: Zenith701801-List: vg's I'm flying the 701 with a Rotax 912ULS with strut fairings, this morning it was at about 1000 lbs gross weight.- Air was about 75 degrees at an alt of 1000 ft that is a density alt of about 2260 ft.- On the ground density alt was 1100. - I have just installed the plastic-vg's (yesterday) from StolSpeed- and spent some time this morning doing some testing.- If I had not painted my plane yet the aluminum ones would get some serious consideration.- The p lastic ones take some time to put the adhesive on and then line them up on the elevator, total install time was about four hours.- They don't confor m to the radius of the elevator all that well, so we sill see how-long th ey stay on. - -I tend to come in on short final with no power, flaps or no flaps.- 15 degree flaps take a little more practice with no power.- The vg's did mo st certainly give me more elevator authority.- - On a power off stall the vg's seem to make the approach to the non stall mu ch smoother.- My-CFI was amazed at the power off stall, no dropping of the nose, full aft elevator with a slight buffeting.- Just-sinks at 900 fpm.- Full power stall is about the same except a much higher AOA and ab out 200 fpm sink rate.- And a 5mph ground speed on the GPS. - Also did an engine off approach (prop stops on a Rotax 912) to a full stop landing,- wanted to see if the glide ratio was any different than with th e engine at idol and prop turning.- I did not do a four direction glide t o compensate for any wind, this morning I could not detect any wind.- It sank at a higher rate than with the prop turning.- This is contrary to wh at I have been told.- The only thing I can think is that at idol the prop on a Rotax 912 is turning enough that it helps with the glide.- There wa s a considerably steeper nose down attitude with the prop stopped than with it turning at the same air speed. - I also did my first off airport landing and take off this morning.- Used a local hay field, it looked smooth but sure felt rough when I landed.- I used 15 degree flaps on take off and that make things lighter on take off and much smoother.- I probably have to much air in the tires.- How much pressure are some of you using to smooth out-the rough fields?- I have the tube type tires and don't want to spin the tires on the rim. - - - Eight more hours to fly off my 40. - Mark S. - -=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:46 PM PST US From: "Mark Sherman" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: vg's. Gary. Thanks I think I'll give that a try. Now that you mention that, I remember seeing a drawing some where with that specification of 80%. Thanks Mark S. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Gower To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 4:06 PM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: vg's. Hello Mark, I dont use a tire pressure gauge, looses most of the pressure in the test... What I do is this: I messure the distance from the upper side of the rim to the top of the tire (with a square ruler) . Then I made a piece of wood 80% long of that distance. This is my air gauge from the floor to the lower side if the rim. In case the wheel sides show little wrinkle (like the dragster rear wheels) just aply a little more air. Has worked for me. Saludos Gary Gower. --- On Sun, 7/19/09, Mark Sherman wrote: From: Mark Sherman Subject: Zenith701801-List: vg's To: "Zenith701801-list" Date: Sunday, July 19, 2009, 3:12 PM I'm flying the 701 with a Rotax 912ULS with strut fairings, this morning it was at about 1000 lbs gross weight. Air was about 75 degrees at an alt of 1000 ft that is a density alt of about 2260 ft. On the ground density alt was 1100. I have just installed the plastic vg's (yesterday) from StolSpeed and spent some time this morning doing some testing. If I had not painted my plane yet the aluminum ones would get some serious consideration. The plastic ones take some time to put the adhesive on and then line them up on the elevator, total install time was about four hours. They don't conform to the radius of the elevator all that well, so we sill see how long they stay on. I tend to come in on short final with no power, flaps or no flaps. 15 degree flaps take a little more practice with no power. The vg's did most certainly give me more elevator authority. On a power off stall the vg's seem to make the approach to the non stall much smoother. My CFI was amazed at the power off stall, no dropping of the nose, full aft elevator with a slight buffeting. Just sinks at 900 fpm. Full power stall is about the same except a much higher AOA and about 200 fpm sink rate. And a 5mph ground speed on the GPS. Also did an engine off approach (prop stops on a Rotax 912) to a full stop landing, wanted to see if the glide ratio was any different than with the engine at idol and prop turning. I did not do a four direction glide to compensate for any wind, this morning I could not detect any wind. It sank at a higher rate than with the prop turning. This is contrary to what I have been told. The only thing I can think is that at idol the prop on a Rotax 912 is turning enough that it helps with the glide. There was a considerably steeper nose down attitude with the prop stopped than with it turning at the same air speed. I also did my first off airport landing and take off this morning. Used a local hay field, it looked smooth but sure felt rough when I landed. I used 15 degree flaps on take off and that make things lighter on take off and much smoother. I probably have to much air in the tires. How much pressure are some of you using to smooth out the rough fields? I have the tube type tires and don't want to spin the tires on the rim. Eight more hours to fly off my 40. Mark S. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:51 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: vortex generators Trust me.. A bigger engine doesn't help airspeed much at all. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Ken Arnold" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: vortex generators AR, Bigger engine. Regards,Ken do not archive ----- Original Message -- --- From: Alvin Rose To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, J uly 20, 2009 5:57 PMSubject: Zenith701801-List: vortex generators Does anyone have a graphics template for construction of the vortex gene rators similar to Zenairsunits..I have the plastic ones on my elevator a nd theywork well on floats..I would like to make the aluminumvg's to try on the elevators and even on the wings withslats removed...want to get more air speed. A.Rhref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith7018 01-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-Listhref="htt p://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www. ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======= ____________________________________________________________ Improve your driving ability with a stop at traffic school. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/BLSrjpYZTbSzxN33G81uqeih0 D8tnAuxeN0E22iFuKbCl7o34p6qfJuJeqk/ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:48 PM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs Jay, check out John Gilpin's (JG) website, www.stolspeed.com With all due respect to JG, keep in mind that he is selling something when you read his site. Essentially, by removing the slats from the 701 you are reducing the size of the wing (we are not talking VGs yet). The higher loaded wing will fly faster because of less drag. You also loose a good amount of the STOL capcability of the wing. To fix this loss of low end STOL performance, you install vortex generators on the wing. This returns most (but not all) of the STOL capability but leaves the higher top speed alone. Now the question that everyone has to answer for themselves is, is the increase in top speed worth the minor degridation of the STOL capability. The consensus of those that have made the change is that the very minor loss of STOL capability is very acceptible because the 701 has so much STOL ability to begin with. What is another ten feet of take off roll when you are still getting up faster than almost any other aircraft out there. To answer your other question, there is no advantage to using VGs and slats. They accomplish the same goal of keeping the airflow attached to the wing at higher angles of attack. While the above information may sound like I am firmly in the VG side of the debate, I actually am planning on installing my slats. I just like to look at both sides of an issue. Hope this clears things up a bit for you. Doug MacDonald CH-701 Scratch Builder Final assembly and getting my but kicked by a Citabria this past weekend NW Ontario, Canada Do Not Archive --- On Mon, 7/20/09, Jay Parker wrote: > From: Jay Parker > Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs > To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com > Received: Monday, July 20, 2009, 11:50 AM > I've seen the ones that > Zenith sells that attach to the elevators and I've seen > the SpeedStol's VGs that attach the the forward wings as > an alternative toLeading Edge Slats (LES). > I'm sure this is a stupid question to most of you > experienced flyers, but can you use both orwould it > create too much drag or turbulanceor would it totally > screw up the characteristics of the Zenith STOLs, or do they > serve different purposes when they are attached to the wings > as opposed to the elevators. Opps, that was a whole > series of stupid questions in one sentence. Sorry. > Basically, I just want to know the difference between > them. The ones that Zenith sells, itappear to > still require the LES and appear to help in slow speed > landings, while the ones SpeedStol sells > allows for the LES to be taken off with pretty much the > same slow landing characteristics as having them on, > butwith more stabilityin flight, slightly higher > cruise speeds, and less fuel consumption. Anyone have > any thoughts? > > Jay > __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? 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