Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:52 AM - Re: VGs (Peter Thomson)
2. 07:15 AM - Re: Re: VGs (JohnDRead@aol.com)
3. 09:02 AM - Re: Re: VGs (Gordon)
4. 09:22 AM - VG and other questions (Larry)
5. 10:04 AM - Re: Re: VGs (John Marzulli)
6. 10:41 AM - Re: Re: VGs (John Bolding)
7. 10:43 AM - Re: Re: VGs (Ken Arnold)
8. 11:19 AM - Re: Re: VNE (John Bolding)
9. 11:36 AM - Re: Re: VNE (Ken Arnold)
10. 01:43 PM - Re: Re: VNE (John Bolding)
11. 01:52 PM - Re: Re: VNE (Dan Wilde)
12. 02:25 PM - Re: Re: VNE (JG)
13. 02:41 PM - Re: Re: VGs (JG)
14. 02:47 PM - Re: 1200-feet-per-SECOND climb rate (Zed Smith)
15. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: VGs (JG)
16. 05:55 PM - Re: VGs (kmccune)
17. 05:58 PM - Re: 1200-feet-per-SECOND climb rate (kmccune)
18. 06:12 PM - Re: VNE/VGS (Joe Spencer)
19. 08:04 PM - Aluminum paired VGs (Joe Spencer)
20. 08:27 PM - RPM correction. VGs (Joe Spencer)
Message 1
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I have the Stolspeed VG's on wings and elevator.
I took my slats off, and I'll never re-fit them.
I think the only time you'll find a difference (if one exists) is
when the nose is pointing at an angle which would scare most people to
death.
The Vg's on the elevator make it easy to hold the nose off at very
slow touchdown speeds.
Key advantages are the loss of drag, better fuel economy and ease of
cruise near the maximum.
Peter
CH701 SP (CZAW)
912ULS
VG's - no slats
Message 2
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Why bother to build a STOL aircraft if you take away the things that make
it so? VGs only make poor airfoils work better, they do not make a STOL wing
out of any airfoil. Flame away!
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 7/22/2009 1:52:36 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
peterlthomson@gmail.com writes:
--> Zenith701801-List message posted by: Peter Thomson
<peterlthomson@gmail.com>
I have the Stolspeed VG's on wings and elevator.
I took my slats off, and I'll never re-fit them.
I think the only time you'll find a difference (if one exists) is
when the nose is pointing at an angle which would scare most people to
death.
The Vg's on the elevator make it easy to hold the nose off at very
slow touchdown speeds.
Key advantages are the loss of drag, better fuel economy and ease of
cruise near the maximum.
Peter
CH701 SP (CZAW)
912ULS
VG's - no slats
**************What's for dinner tonight? Find quick and easy dinner ideas
for any occasion.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?ncid=emlcntusfood00000009)
Message 3
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I'm with you 100% John. People that like the planes flying
characteristics with the slats removed, probably selected the wrong
plane to build.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: JohnDRead@aol.com
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs
Why bother to build a STOL aircraft if you take away the things that
make it so? VGs only make poor airfoils work better, they do not make a
STOL wing out of any airfoil. Flame away!
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 7/22/2009 1:52:36 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
peterlthomson@gmail.com writes:
<peterlthomson@gmail.com>
I have the Stolspeed VG's on wings and elevator.
I took my slats off, and I'll never re-fit them.
I think the only time you'll find a difference (if one exists) is
when the nose is pointing at an angle which would scare most people
to
death.
The Vg's on the elevator make it easy to hold the nose off at very
slow touchdown speeds.
Key advantages are the loss of drag, better fuel economy and ease of
cruise near the maximum.
Peter
CH701 SP (CZAW)
912ULS
VG's - no
Use utilities Day
=======================
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- List Contribution Web Site sp;
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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What's for dinner tonight? Find quick and easy dinner ideas for any
occasion.
Message 4
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| Subject: | VG and other questions |
I have been following the VG debate and discussion for some time. I
purchased a partial kit and ended up in a move.
I have the tail feathers completed and started the fuselage just before the
move. Ready to start building again. After some discussion with others I
find that I should hold off on the fuselage (Had the rear section ready to
rivet) and construct the wings. Now the question comes up of just building
the wings and adding the VG instead of the slats. Not sure what I do with
the flaparons as they seem to come as a pair. Any discussion? Thanks.
Message 5
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Has anyone experimented with "gap sealing" the slats to the wing to
"complete" the airfoil while using VGs?
This seems like a more reasonable solution than simply pulling the slats off
and would probably result in less drag when flying in cruise than presenting
the unslatted wing.
John Marzulli
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Gordon <cscsail@gmavt.net> wrote:
> I'm with you 100% John. People that like the planes flying
> characteristics with the slats removed, probably selected the wrong plane to
> build.
> Gordon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* JohnDRead@aol.com
> *To:* zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:07 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs
>
> Why bother to build a STOL aircraft if you take away the things that make
> it so? VGs only make poor airfoils work better, they do not make a STOL wing
> out of any airfoil. Flame away!
>
> John Read
> CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
>
> Phone: 303-648-3261
> Fax: 303-648-3262
> Cell: 719-494-4567
> In a message dated 7/22/2009 1:52:36 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
> peterlthomson@gmail.com writes:
>
> peterlthomson@gmail.com>
>
> I have the Stolspeed VG's on wings and elevator.
>
> I took my slats off, and I'll never re-fit them.
>
> I think the only time you'll find a difference (if one exists) is
> when the nose is pointing at an angle which would scare most people to
> death.
>
> The Vg's on the elevator make it easy to hold the nose off at very
> slow touchdown speeds.
>
> Key advantages are the loss of drag, better fuel economy and ease of
> cruise near the maximum.
>
> Peter
> CH701 SP (CZAW)
> 912ULS
> VG's - no Use utilities Day ======================= -
> MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ======================= - List Contribution
> Web Site sp;
>
>
> ------------------------------
> What's for dinner tonight? Find quick and easy dinner ideas<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?ncid=emlcntusfood00000009>for any occasion.
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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>
> *
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> *
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>
Message 6
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Gilpin (among others) has. Found that the center of lift moved forward,
lending credence to the notion that the slats do nothing/very little in
cruise. I'll provide the nose ribs if anyone with a flying airplane
wants to test the full airfoil. Mine is still a year or better in the
future.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: John Marzulli
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs
Has anyone experimented with "gap sealing" the slats to the wing to
"complete" the airfoil while using VGs?
This seems like a more reasonable solution than simply pulling the
slats off and would probably result in less drag when flying in cruise
than presenting the unslatted wing.
John Marzulli
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Gordon <cscsail@gmavt.net> wrote:
I'm with you 100% John. People that like the planes flying
characteristics with the slats removed, probably selected the wrong
plane to build.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: JohnDRead@aol.com
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs
Why bother to build a STOL aircraft if you take away the things
that make it so? VGs only make poor airfoils work better, they do not
make a STOL wing out of any airfoil. Flame away!
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 7/22/2009 1:52:36 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
peterlthomson@gmail.com writes:
<peterlthomson@gmail.com>
I have the Stolspeed VG's on wings and elevator.
I took my slats off, and I'll never re-fit them.
I think the only time you'll find a difference (if one exists)
is
when the nose is pointing at an angle which would scare most
people to
death.
The Vg's on the elevator make it easy to hold the nose off at
very
slow touchdown speeds.
Key advantages are the loss of drag, better fuel economy and
ease of
cruise near the maximum.
Peter
CH701 SP (CZAW)
912ULS
VG's - no Use utilities Day
=======================
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS
=======================
- List Contribution Web Site sp;
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
What's for dinner tonight? Find quick and easy dinner ideas for
any occasion.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ist"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
a>http://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 7
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Hey John,
There have been some efforts. However, Vne is a troublesome factor.
Covering the struts and waxing a painted CH701 reduces drag such that
Vne is too close.
Talk with Roger at Zenith. He is a CH701 expert. Per his
recommendation, I installed plastic VGs on the elevator. Works great
since they are only used during slow speeds such as landing.
Regards,
Ken
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: John Marzulli
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs
Has anyone experimented with "gap sealing" the slats to the wing to
"complete" the airfoil while using VGs?
This seems like a more reasonable solution than simply pulling the
slats off and would probably result in less drag when flying in cruise
than presenting the unslatted wing.
John Marzulli
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Gordon <cscsail@gmavt.net> wrote:
I'm with you 100% John. People that like the planes flying
characteristics with the slats removed, probably selected the wrong
plane to build.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: JohnDRead@aol.com
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs
Why bother to build a STOL aircraft if you take away the things
that make it so? VGs only make poor airfoils work better, they do not
make a STOL wing out of any airfoil. Flame away!
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 7/22/2009 1:52:36 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
peterlthomson@gmail.com writes:
<peterlthomson@gmail.com>
I have the Stolspeed VG's on wings and elevator.
I took my slats off, and I'll never re-fit them.
I think the only time you'll find a difference (if one exists)
is
when the nose is pointing at an angle which would scare most
people to
death.
The Vg's on the elevator make it easy to hold the nose off at
very
slow touchdown speeds.
Key advantages are the loss of drag, better fuel economy and
ease of
cruise near the maximum.
Peter
CH701 SP (CZAW)
912ULS
VG's - no Use utilities Day
=======================
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS
=======================
- List Contribution Web Site sp;
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
What's for dinner tonight? Find quick and easy dinner ideas for
any occasion.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ist"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
a>http://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 8
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VNE no problem, the cleaner you get the airplane the less fuel it takes
to move it a given speed, and the greater the climb rate.
Both good things.
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Arnold
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs
Hey John,
There have been some efforts. However, Vne is a troublesome factor.
Covering the struts and waxing a painted CH701 reduces drag such that
Vne is too close.
Talk with Roger at Zenith. He is a CH701 expert. Per his
recommendation, I installed plastic VGs on the elevator. Works great
since they are only used during slow speeds such as landing.
Regards,
Ken
do not archive
Message 9
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Hey JB,
My DAR doesn't like to fly beyond Vne. Just a tad under Vne at 50%
throttle gets great mileage. A tad over Vne and the wings twist off is
not great!
I will never intentionally exceed Vne. Hanging around the FBO you often
hear stories about bold pilots and their exciting flights. I am
perfectly satisfied flying by the rules.
My CH701 climbs out at about 1200 ft per sec. Plenty fast for plane
built to Zenith specs.
Regards,
Ken
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: John Bolding
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VNE
VNE no problem, the cleaner you get the airplane the less fuel it
takes to move it a given speed, and the greater the climb rate.
Both good things.
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Arnold
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs
Hey John,
There have been some efforts. However, Vne is a troublesome factor.
Covering the struts and waxing a painted CH701 reduces drag such that
Vne is too close.
Talk with Roger at Zenith. He is a CH701 expert. Per his
recommendation, I installed plastic VGs on the elevator. Works great
since they are only used during slow speeds such as landing.
Regards,
Ken
do not archive
Message 10
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Ken , I'm NOT talking about flying beyond VNE not a wise thing to
twist the lions tail. What I'm saying is that cleanups/ drag reduction
on ANY airplane have value beyond just top speed. Gilpin reduced his
fuel consumption by a large margin and increased his climb rate at the
same time. If you reduce the fuel flow at cruise by 20% (his was more I
think) you also reduce the wear on the engine and your pocketbook when
it's time to fill up the tanks and overhaul the engine.
Speed isn't everything, especially with the 701.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Arnold
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VNE
Hey JB,
My DAR doesn't like to fly beyond Vne. Just a tad under Vne at 50%
throttle gets great mileage. A tad over Vne and the wings twist off is
not great!
I will never intentionally exceed Vne. Hanging around the FBO you
often hear stories about bold pilots and their exciting flights. I am
perfectly satisfied flying by the rules.
My CH701 climbs out at about 1200 ft per sec. Plenty fast for plane
built to Zenith specs.
Regards,
Ken
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: John Bolding
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VNE
VNE no problem, the cleaner you get the airplane the less fuel it
takes to move it a given speed, and the greater the climb rate.
Both good things.
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Arnold
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs
Hey John,
There have been some efforts. However, Vne is a troublesome
factor. Covering the struts and waxing a painted CH701 reduces drag
such that Vne is too close.
Talk with Roger at Zenith. He is a CH701 expert. Per his
recommendation, I installed plastic VGs on the elevator. Works great
since they are only used during slow speeds such as landing.
Regards,
Ken
do not archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 11
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Ken Arnold wrote:
> Hey JB,
> My DAR doesn't like to fly beyond Vne. Just a tad under Vne at 50%
> throttle gets great mileage. A tad over Vne and the wings twist off
> is not great!
>
> I will never intentionally exceed Vne. Hanging around the FBO you
> often hear stories about bold pilots and their exciting flights. I am
> perfectly satisfied flying by the rules.
>
> My CH701 climbs out at about 1200 ft per sec. Plenty fast for plane
> built to Zenith specs.
>
> Regards,
> Ken
>
> do not archive
>
>
1200 feet per second. Did you install a JATO rocket? :-)
Dan Wilde
Message 12
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Vne is not an issue. Cruise speed is controlled by the hand on the
throttle. 100hp is way over-powered for a 701 straight and level. The
power is needed for the spectacular short take-off performance, but is way
in excess for cruise. It's just like your car has heaps of power for quick
acceleration and hills, but you don't keep driving at that power or you'll
be way over Vne for the highway patrol...... Same in the 701, once you're
up there, throttle back and cruise at a respectable speed.
And JohnB is exactly correct, without the drag of the slats you'll be
running at lower engine power for the same speed, so less fuel consumption
and less load on the engine.
JG
Do not archive
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:34 AM, John Bolding <jnbolding1@teleshare.net>wrote:
> Ken , I'm NOT talking about flying beyond VNE not a wise thing to twist
> the lions tail. What I'm saying is that cleanups/ drag reduction on ANY
> airplane have value beyond just top speed. Gilpin reduced his fuel
> consumption by a large margin and increased his climb rate at the same
> time. If you reduce the fuel flow at cruise by 20% (his was more I think)
> you also reduce the wear on the engine and your pocketbook when it's time to
> fill up the tanks and overhaul the engine.
> Speed isn't everything, especially with the 701.
> John
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Ken Arnold <arno7452@bellsouth.net>
> *To:* zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:32 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VNE
>
> Hey JB,
> My DAR doesn't like to fly beyond Vne. Just a tad under Vne at 50%
> throttle gets great mileage. A tad over Vne and the wings twist off is not
> great!
>
> I will never intentionally exceed Vne. Hanging around the FBO you often
> hear stories about bold pilots and their exciting flights. I am perfectly
> satisfied flying by the rules.
>
> My CH701 climbs out at about 1200 ft per sec. Plenty fast for plane built
> to Zenith specs.
>
> Regards,
> Ken
>
> do not archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* John Bolding <jnbolding1@teleshare.net>
> *To:* zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2009 2:16 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VNE
>
> VNE no problem, the cleaner you get the airplane the less fuel it takes to
> move it a given speed, *and* the greater the climb rate.
> Both good things.
>
> JB
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Ken Arnold <arno7452@bellsouth.net>
> *To:* zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2009 12:43 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs
>
> Hey John,
> There have been some efforts. However, Vne is a troublesome factor.
> Covering the struts and waxing a painted CH701 reduces drag such that Vne is
> too close.
>
> Talk with Roger at Zenith. He is a CH701 expert. Per his recommendation,
> I installed plastic VGs on the elevator. Works great since they are only
> used during slow speeds such as landing.
>
> Regards,
> Ken
>
> do not archive
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>
> *
>
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> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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Message 13
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Yes, I tried sealing the gaps between the slats and the wing. Cruise speed
was the same as no slats, but the centre of lift had moved forward such that
there was a more aft CofG that didn't feel good in my aircraft. Turns out
that the slats don't act like part of the lifting wing at cruise, which was
proven in that there is no change in cruise trim with slats/no slats.
Closing those gaps effectively extends the the chord of the wing much
farther forward, thus moving the centre of lift farther forward
and increasing the wing area considerably. This is much like the extended
leading edge that John Bolding has been considering. I think it has
real good possibilities for a better balance for 701's with heavy car
engines and floats.
JG
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 3:00 AM, John Marzulli <john.marzulli@gmail.com>wrote:
> Has anyone experimented with "gap sealing" the slats to the wing to
> "complete" the airfoil while using VGs?
>
> This seems like a more reasonable solution than simply pulling the slats
> off and would probably result in less drag when flying in cruise than
> presenting the unslatted wing.
>
>
> John Marzulli
>
> http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/ <http://www.genevievemarzulli.org/>
> http://MarzulliPhoto.net/ <http://marzulliphoto.net/>
> http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ <http://701builder.blogspot.com/>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Gordon <cscsail@gmavt.net> wrote:
>
>> I'm with you 100% John. People that like the planes flying
>> characteristics with the slats removed, probably selected the wrong plane to
>> build.
>> Gordon
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* JohnDRead@aol.com
>> *To:* zenith701801-list@matronics.com
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:07 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs
>>
>> Why bother to build a STOL aircraft if you take away the things that make
>> it so? VGs only make poor airfoils work better, they do not make a STOL wing
>> out of any airfoil. Flame away!
>>
>> John Read
>> CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
>>
>> Phone: 303-648-3261
>> Fax: 303-648-3262
>> Cell: 719-494-4567
>> In a message dated 7/22/2009 1:52:36 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
>> peterlthomson@gmail.com writes:
>>
>> peterlthomson@gmail.com>
>>
>> I have the Stolspeed VG's on wings and elevator.
>>
>> I took my slats off, and I'll never re-fit them.
>>
>> I think the only time you'll find a difference (if one exists) is
>> when the nose is pointing at an angle which would scare most people to
>> death.
>>
>> The Vg's on the elevator make it easy to hold the nose off at very
>> slow touchdown speeds.
>>
>> Key advantages are the loss of drag, better fuel economy and ease of
>> cruise near the maximum.
>>
>> Peter
>> CH701 SP (CZAW)
>> 912ULS
>> VG's - no Use utilities Day ======================= -
>> MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ======================= - List Contribution
>> Web Site sp;
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> What's for dinner tonight? Find quick and easy dinner ideas<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?ncid=emlcntusfood00000009>for any occasion.
>>
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>>
>> *
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
>> a>http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | RE: 1200-feet-per-SECOND climb rate |
Do the VGs help muffle the boom at Mach 1?
Zed/701/912/90%/etc
Message 15
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No we didn't choose the wrong aircraft at all. The 701 is a great aircraft,
and we've found ways to make it even better for our use. As Peter has
testified, we lose very little, (if any) STOL capability, and gain much
better x-country cruise capability and handling. It really expands the
aircraft's envelope. It's like the difference between an original Willys
Jeep and a Suzuki 4WD; the Suzi can match the Jeep anywhere off-road, and is
a whole lot better on the highway. There's nothing that can't be improved,
and this is just evolution in action.....
JG
Do not archive
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 1:57 AM, Gordon <cscsail@gmavt.net> wrote:
> I'm with you 100% John. People that like the planes flying
> characteristics with the slats removed, probably selected the wrong plane to
> build.
> Gordon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* JohnDRead@aol.com
> *To:* zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:07 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: VGs
>
> Why bother to build a STOL aircraft if you take away the things that make
> it so? VGs only make poor airfoils work better, they do not make a STOL wing
> out of any airfoil. Flame away!
>
> John Read
> CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
>
> Phone: 303-648-3261
> Fax: 303-648-3262
> Cell: 719-494-4567
> In a message dated 7/22/2009 1:52:36 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
> peterlthomson@gmail.com writes:
>
> peterlthomson@gmail.com>
>
> I have the Stolspeed VG's on wings and elevator.
>
> I took my slats off, and I'll never re-fit them.
>
> I think the only time you'll find a difference (if one exists) is
> when the nose is pointing at an angle which would scare most people to
> death.
>
> The Vg's on the elevator make it easy to hold the nose off at very
> slow touchdown speeds.
>
> Key advantages are the loss of drag, better fuel economy and ease of
> cruise near the maximum.
>
> Peter
> CH701 SP (CZAW)
> 912ULS
> VG's - no Use utilities Day ======================= -
> MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ======================= - List Contribution
> Web Site sp;
>
>
> ------------------------------
> What's for dinner tonight? Find quick and easy dinner ideas<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?ncid=emlcntusfood00000009>for any occasion.
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 16
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John,
No flames needed, no one says VGs make a poor airfoil into a helicopter. Only that
VGs do perform close to the slats and improve other aspects of the 701 performance
and handling. And that they help less STOL airfoils some. CH has given
his stamp of approval on this 701 mod from an engineering stand point. Though
he does reserve the performance stamp of approval.
My guess is it is a marketing issue, but who knows?
Are they for everyone... nope, but they are for me. I have spoken to the John Gs
customers and they support his claims 100%. And as for the idea that he is selling
something, so buyer beware... run the numbers, he is providing a product
that gets him some gas money, he really does not have $ signs in his eyes.
Kevin
CH 701 SN 7172
N701DZ
[quote="JohnDRead(at)aol.com"]Why bother to build a STOL aircraft if you take away
the things that make it so? VGs only make poor airfoils work better, they
do not make a STOL wing out of any airfoil. Flame away!
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 7/22/2009 1:52:36 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, peterlthomson@gmail.com
writes:
> --> Zenith701801-List message posted by: Peter Thomson
>
> I have the Stolspeed VG's on wings and elevator.
>
> I took my slats off, and I'll never re-fit them.
>
> I think the only time you'll find a difference (if one exists) is
> when the nose is pointing at an angle which would scare most people to
> death.
>
> The Vg's on the elevator make it easy to hold the nose off at very
> slow touchdown speeds.
>
> Key advantages are the loss of drag, better fuel economy and ease of
> cruise near the maximum.
>
> Peter
> CH701 SP (CZAW)
> 912ULS
> VG's - no ========================= Use utilities Day ================================================
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ================================================
- List Contribution Web Site
sp; ==================================================
>
>
>
>
What's for dinner tonight? Find quick and easy dinner ideas (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?ncid=emlcntusfood00000009) for any occasion.
> [b]
--------
History is a great teacher if you take time to study it.
Steve Bennett
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254423#254423
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 1200-feet-per-SECOND climb rate |
Well I have not heard one, or of one, from a 701 yet..... [Wink]
Kevin
zsmith3rd(at)earthlink.ne wrote:
> Do the VGs help muffle the boom at Mach 1?
>
> Zed/701/912/90%/etc
--------
History is a great teacher if you take time to study it.
Steve Bennett
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=254424#254424
Message 18
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Mine with no slats and JGs VGs does 96mph TAS at 1000 MSL/60 F at 4700
RPM and 4 GPH with the prop set at 11 degrees, 912 ULS.
Like JG says, VNE is a non issue, just pull the power back, like they
taught you in presolo training.
Seems like I remember one fella who took his slats off and didn't like
it. Said he was gonna put them back on. Everybody else that I know of
says they will never go back...I know I won't. The ones who down vgs are
the ones who haven't flown them. Don't knock it til you tried it.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Aluminum paired VGs |
Somebody in the VG thread asked about installing the paired aluminum
vgs on the wing...first of all let me say that I don't care whose vgs
anybody buys, or if they don't buy any at all.
I have had a set of the aluminum paired vgs on my Legal Eagle for some
time. They are carefully homemade, by me. They helped the lowspeed
handling considerably and lowered the stall speed several mph, as
expected.(I never tested the cruise, I don't care how fast it goes)
Before installing JGs vgs on my 701, I made and installed(taped) a set
of the aluminum ones on my slatless wing and did some testing. The
handling improved,as compared to with slats, but the cruise speed
decreased as compared to the clean(no slats or vgs) wing. I went back
and dug for a while but didn't come up with the numbers. I have them
here somewhere, I know, as I have just about everything that I have
touched since birth. Anyway, I can tell you that in my case anyway that
the drag went up with that set positioned at 8% MAC, the same position
as my Stolspeed vgs. I abandoned them early on in the testing, in favor
of the individually mounted ones, due to the drag increase. My clean
wing flew 90.25 mph, with Stolspeed vgs, also 90.25. If I remember
correctly, with the aluminum vgs mine did 88.(round struts at that
time)Under the tail, in the elevator slot where they are hidden from
cruise airflow, there shouldn't be any increase in cruise drag, I
wouldn't think.
As an aside, I would say that precise, definitive testing on a plane as
slow as ours is more difficult that on faster ones cause the differences
in speed after a change are often so small as to be difficult to see and
accurately measure(what did we ever do w/o GPS?)...it takes a lot of
dedication and effort, a casual approach will give flawed results. On
our planes a 2 or 3 mph change in airspeed is hard to see, but is a huge
percentage change, relatively speaking. Small atmospheric variations on
a 90 mph airplane have a huge effect, and often mask the result, or
magnify it. I did over 40 hours of testing on vgs before I was satisfied
with my results. And that is nothing compared to what JG has done. I was
able to match his claims.
FWIW
Joe
Message 20
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| Subject: | RPM correction. VGs |
Correction to the rpm. that should be 5000. Sorry. Getting old here. Joe
>Mine with no slats and JGs VGs does 96mph TAS at >1000 MSL/60 F at 4700
>RPM and 4 GPH with the prop set at 11 degrees, 912 >ULS
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