Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:40 AM - Re: Dual Sticks ()
2. 05:22 AM - Re: A good reason to own a 701 (Tommy Walker)
3. 06:12 AM - correction to Larry's post (Joe Spencer)
4. 09:22 AM - Re: No slats (mike soucy)
5. 12:42 PM - Re: No slats (John Bolding)
6. 01:19 PM - Re: No slats (edleg)
7. 03:24 PM - Re: Re: No slats (John Bolding)
8. 04:34 PM - Re: No slats (edleg)
9. 05:36 PM - Re: A good reason to own a 701 (kmccune)
10. 05:42 PM - Re: Re: No slats (John Bolding)
11. 08:18 PM - Re: correction to Larry's post (Larry)
12. 08:43 PM - Re: correction to Larry's post (MacDonald Doug)
Message 1
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>I ask one question regarding dual sticks and unless I missed it no one gave
>me the answer I ask for.........Joseph
Joseph,
Your question was, "Any suggestions?" You got a lot of suggestions and opinions.
Not many builders have done this type of dual stick, I suggest you send an
e-mail off-list to those who indicated they have built them and ask them specifically
"how many degrees."
Rich Hartwig
>Iam about ready to put dual sticks in my 701. You cut the Y stick off at
>the connecting point, then weld a 24 inch tube from left to right. Then weld
>two upright sticks on top of the horizonial tube. I assume you put the
>elevator in zero position then weld the upright sticks. Iam told that the
>upright sticks should be moved forward about 20 degrees before you weld >them.
>Any suggestions? Joseph _joenan1934(at)aol.com_
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: A good reason to own a 701 |
That's a little more than I pay out in the country. 25A
We pay $30.00 per month.
Do Not Archive
I just received a flyer from Columbia (California) airport advertising
new hangers for rent. The cheapest one was $500 per month or you
could
own it for only $109,000.
Dan Wilde
Flying from home and loving it
Message 3
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| Subject: | correction to Larry's post |
Don't cut the "Y" off. If you can weld then it is not difficult to
duplicate the bottom part and make a complete dual system. That way you
have both. All I have to do to replace the duals with the "Y" is remove
two bolts and unplug the wiring. Then you can switch back and forth.
Let us know which you like best.
Remember when building the sticks, to put a large "C" in them (see my
pictures). If you make straight sticks then you will have difficultly
getting in and out. With the "C" it real easy to get in and out.
Take care, Larry N1345L
Joe Spencer wrote:
>> Iam about ready to put dual sticks in my 701. You cut the Y stick
off at
>> the connecting point, then weld a 24 inch tube from left to right.
Then weld
>> two upright sticks on top of the horizonial tube. I assume you put
the
>> elevator in zero position then weld the upright sticks. Iam told
that the
>> upright sticks should be moved forward about 20 degrees before you
weld them.
>
> The thing that bothers me about this arrangement, if I understand it
correctly(and
I haven't seen a drawing) is that the grip is offset from the pivot...so
when moving it left to right you get a bunch of vertical travel too.
Maybe in
practice it isn't noticeable, but I don't like the idea of it...kinda
weird seeming,
like the rest of the plane. Certainly not for the purists. I'm sticking
with the Y
Larry
I didn't write what you indicated I did...I wrote the last paragraph; no
way am I about ready to put dual sticks in my 701. Please be more
careful about what you indicate that others said...well, in my case
anyway. Thanks
Joe
Message 4
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John ,
Thanks for the response, I did check out some posts in the archives. Fishin
g has not been that good lately so I do not want to open a can of worms so
I will rephrase my question.
Has anyone out there flown both with and without slats (vg's) and returned
to slats and why.- Feel free to contact me off list if you prefer, your i
nput would be appreciated as I hope to close my wings this winter. I also s
aw mention of vg's on elevator does this help if you want keep-that train
ing wheel up front-in the air longer? The more you find out the more ques
tions.
-
Thanks
-
mike
--- On Thu, 8/20/09, John Bolding <jnbolding1@teleshare.net> wrote:
From: John Bolding <jnbolding1@teleshare.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: No slats
re.net>
hundreds of posts on the subject.
----- Original Message -----
From: <mksoucy@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 9:18 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: No slats
> <mksoucy@yahoo.com>
>
> New to list. Is anyone out there flying with no slats and how's it workin
g
> out.
>
> Thanks
>
> Mike
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
>
>
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 5
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My experience is pretty limited as I flew Brett's airplane about 39 hrs
with slats and 1 hour without + VG's on wing and elevator. Control
response at low speed was MUCH better and elevator effectiveness was
daylight and dark.
An hour is NOT even close to enough time to do a proper test but if you
do a search for Joe Spencer's posts he has done as much testing as
Gilpin , almost anyway.
I think I remember one fellow a yr ago that put his slats back on but
his name evades me (lot's of things evade me lately). MANY have left
them off and cut off the brackets.
What we DON'T have is someone flying the full airfoil yet, either with
or without VG's.
LO&SLO John
----- Original Message -----
From: mike soucy
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: No slats
John ,
Thanks for the response, I did check out some posts in the
archives. Fishing has not been that good lately so I do not want to open
a can of worms so I will rephrase my question.
Has anyone out there flown both with and without slats (vg's)
and returned to slats and why. Feel free to contact me off list if you
prefer, your input would be appreciated as I hope to close my wings this
winter. I also saw mention of vg's on elevator does this help if you
want keep that training wheel up front in the air longer? The more you
find out the more questions.
Thanks
mike
Message 6
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Two things:
1. There is a 801 owner in alaska (maybe Bill Wilcox ??) who has vg's on his wings,
but puts the slats back on for hunting season, to get the max shortfield
performance. Otherwise I guess he flies with slats off.
2. If the wings were built without slats to begin with, what airfoil nose would
you build to, assuming you could design/build new nose ribs?
thx.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259009#259009
Message 7
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The complete airfoil if you cover up the slots is 65018. Chris made a couple
of small changes, flattened out the upper surface a little in the area of
the upper spar cap to make building easier and removed a slight undercamber
right under the nose for the same reason. Riblett told me to leave the
undercamber in. Long story.
What you get when you remove the slats is a bastard but works surprisingly
well (to me anyway) considering the blunt nose. No need to design anything,
the 65018 airfoil profile is here in the files, 3rd item submitted by R.S.
Hoover . If you look over in the photos section lo and behold a picture of
the standard nose rib and a full airfoil nose rib side by side for your
comparing pleasure.
What this nose rib HOPEFULLY does is move the center of lift forward a
little/some/a lot (you choose) to balance an engine slightly/somewhat/much
(you choose) heavier than the Rotax. I also THINK that there is a good
chance induced drag will be down so cruise speed can be obtained at a lower
power setting but that is more wishful thinking than reality at this point.
We'll see.
It also gives you about 12 sq. feet more wing. 'Course you knew all that as
it's been hashed out here so many times everybody is sick of hearing it
again.
This mod hasn't been tried yet but I made the offer to provide the nose ribs
to anyone who wanted to take the leading edge off their flying 701 and
install a full 65018 leading edge, nobody has bit yet so I guess it'll be
me. Mods to this airplane are not taken lightly (by me anyway), it has a
stellar record if built per plans and there is really no valid reason to
mess with it. I just take the word "Experimental" at face value.
You didn't mention but we're talking 701 here, correct?
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "edleg" <ed_legault@yahoo.com>
> 1. There is a 801 owner in alaska (maybe Bill Wilcox ??) who has vg's on
> his wings, but puts the slats back on for hunting season, to get the max
> shortfield performance. Otherwise I guess he flies with slats off.
>
> 2. If the wings were built without slats to begin with, what airfoil nose
> would you build to, assuming you could design/build new nose ribs?
>
Message 8
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John,
yes, 701 or (possibly 801).
There is a photos section? Besides what gets attached to messages? If so, where/how
do I access?
thx
-Ed-
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259028#259028
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: A good reason to own a 701 |
At the local airport here KOEO a shared hanger is 200 per month. That was part
of the 701s attraction for me.
--------
History is a great teacher if you take time to study it.
Steve Bennett
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259031#259031
Message 10
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MY APOLOGIES !! I forgot we were on the matronics list, on the YAHOO
group "701 Builders" all those previous directions makes sense, not here. I
belong to too many groups, old age has something to do with it too.
As far as I've read only 2-3 801 guys tried removing slats and results were
not as stellar as on the 701. I'm not the guy to ask about that airplane.
Sorry for the confusion, I'll straighten up, my wife will be tickled.
LO&SLO John
----- Original Message -----
From: "edleg" <ed_legault@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:34 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: No slats
>
> John,
>
> yes, 701 or (possibly 801).
>
> There is a photos section? Besides what gets attached to messages? If so,
> where/how do I access?
>
> thx
>
> -Ed-
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259028#259028
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: correction to Larry's post |
I didn't indicate you wrote anything. It was meant to be instructions
using "you" meaning the person doing the work, not any one individual
person. It was to instruct how one could have both types of sticks with
out much effort to help them decide which they like the most.
Those who don't like the dual sticks don't like them because they make
their sticks straight and it is very difficult to get in and out if one
doesn't put a large curve or "C" in them. That's the big secret. It
allows one to get their entry foot past the stick without much effort.
The vertical travel is not even noticeable, not an issue.
The dual stick system in my plane wasn't my idea. I didn't invent it.
It is a very well proven system in lots of gyroplanes that has been in
use and flying for many years, mainly RAFs. I just copied it. Every one
I ever flew had the dual stick arrangement it them. They are extremely
efficient and very comfortable to use. You have a natural rest for
which ever hand you wish to use and change up at any time. The first
"Y" I ever flew was in a 701, and I did not like it. It wears your arm
out by having to hold it up in an unnatural position for extended
periods of time and you are forced to fly only right handed for the
pilot or left handed for the co-pilot. The only positive logic I can
think of for the "Y" is that it is easier to build and somewhat lighter.
The bottom line is that the dual system offers much more flexibility and
ease of use than the "Y" does.
If you took offense, I meant none. We don't need to be picking peoples
words apart, none of us write perfectly, especially me. If we start
picking posts apart, people will just quit posting.
Take care, Larry N1345L
Joe Spencer wrote:
> Don't cut the "Y" off. If you can weld then it is not difficult to
> duplicate the bottom part and make a complete dual system. That way you
> have both. All I have to do to replace the duals with the "Y" is remove
> two bolts and unplug the wiring. Then you can switch back and forth.
> Let us know which you like best.
> Remember when building the sticks, to put a large "C" in them (see my
> pictures). If you make straight sticks then you will have difficultly
> getting in and out. With the "C" it real easy to get in and out.
>
> Take care, Larry N1345L
>
> Joe Spencer wrote:
>>> Iam about ready to put dual sticks in my 701. You cut the Y stick off at
>>> the connecting point, then weld a 24 inch tube from left to right. Then weld
>
>>> two upright sticks on top of the horizonial tube. I assume you put the
>>> elevator in zero position then weld the upright sticks. Iam told that the
>>> upright sticks should be moved forward about 20 degrees before you weld them.
>> The thing that bothers me about this arrangement, if I understand it correctly(and
> I haven't seen a drawing) is that the grip is offset from the pivot...so
> when moving it left to right you get a bunch of vertical travel too. Maybe in
> practice it isn't noticeable, but I don't like the idea of it...kinda weird seeming,
> like the rest of the plane. Certainly not for the purists. I'm sticking
> with the Y
>
> Larry
> I didn't write what you indicated I did...I wrote the last paragraph; no way
am I about ready to put dual sticks in my 701. Please be more careful about what
you indicate that others said...well, in my case anyway. Thanks
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: correction to Larry's post |
Larry, I am surprised that you found the "Y" stick un-natural. Keeping in mind
that my only stick time in the 701 is sitting in mine making airplane noises
and the brief Demo flight with Roger last fall but I find the "Y" stick to be
pretty much perfect. If I stick my arm out naturally, my wrist is at the angle
of the "Y". I suppose though that we are all built differently (and so are
our planes) so what is comfortable to one, might be uncomfortable to another.
Regardless, you are always putting a lot of thought into any modification that
you do, keep up the great work.
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch Builder
NW Ontario, Canada
Mounting Slats
Do Not Archive
> The first "Y" I ever flew was in a
> 701, and I did not like it. It wears your arm out by having
> to hold it up in an unnatural position for extended periods
> of time and you are forced to fly only right handed for the
> pilot or left handed for the co-pilot. The only
> positive logic I can think of for the "Y" is that it is
> easier to build and somewhat lighter. The bottom line is
> that the dual system offers much more flexibility and ease
> of use than the "Y" does.
>
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