Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:23 AM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Robert Pelland)
2. 05:56 AM - Chat Reminder for "Digesters" (George Race)
3. 07:04 AM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Larry McFarland)
4. 09:41 AM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Larry)
5. 10:04 AM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Larry)
6. 10:58 AM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Robert Pelland)
7. 11:04 AM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Craig Payne)
8. 11:48 AM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Mark Sherman)
9. 01:28 PM - (Mark Sherman)
10. 03:57 PM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (mcjon77)
11. 04:12 PM - Data Plate (Tommy Walker)
12. 04:58 PM - Re: Data Plate (BokKat)
13. 11:50 PM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (mksoucy@yahoo.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
Jon,
I figured it out a little while back with one of the local suppliers,
and by doing so, there is a approx. 30 lbs weight penalty, and an
increase in strength of the aircraft of 25%, not to mention eliminating
a good portion of the oil canning.
fly safe
Robert
the 701 & 750 scratch
----- Original Message -----
From: mcjon77
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:19 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins?
Hi guys,
Just wanted to know if anyone has tried substituting .020 for the .016
skins on the fuselage and wings. I thought that their might be a
discussion about this before, but after searching, I couldn't find it.
Thanks!
--------
Jon McDonald
Building Sonex #1287
Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288565#288565
Message 2
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| Subject: | Chat Reminder for "Digesters" |
Live Chat Room every Monday evening around 8:00 EDT
www.mykitairplane.com <blocked::http://www.mykitairplane.com/>
Click on the Chat Room link at the top of the page.
George
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
Hi Jon,
I built a 601HDS and used .020 where .016 was called out on the plans.
Just handling .016 is a frustration because it will bend to nearly any
soft touch, handling etc. I looked at .020 that could easily be damaged
thru handling and went to .025. The net result was a better looking set
of wings and
fuselage. I've seen 701 upper wings skins hanging on a wall and watched
the shape change while sunshine and shadows moved across them.
By all means, go with .020 and avoid .016 where possible. Do figure the
weight added and work it up from there.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
mcjon77 wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Just wanted to know if anyone has tried substituting .020 for the .016 skins
on the fuselage and wings. I thought that their might be a discussion about this
before, but after searching, I couldn't find it.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --------
> Jon McDonald
> Building Sonex #1287
> Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288565#288565
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
I was over at a friends yesterday and noticed that his 750 has .020
skins on the wings. Zenith continues to get wiser. Pegastol wings
always used .020 and twice the ribs. Just some info. Larry
John Marzulli wrote:
> This has been covered on the older combined Zenith list. A few people have
> done it, and it has been approved by Zenith.
>
> John Marzulli
>
> http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
> http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
> http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 7:19 PM, mcjon77 <mcjon77@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> Just wanted to know if anyone has tried substituting .020 for the .016
>> skins on the fuselage and wings. I thought that their might be a discussion
>> about this before, but after searching, I couldn't find it.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> --------
>> Jon McDonald
>> Building Sonex #1287
>> Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288565#288565
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
Not wanting to argue, but it struck me that your weight gain might be a
little off or maybe not. I did some calculating using the weights
supplied in the Airparts Inc. catalog. The difference between .016 and
.020 is +.23lbs per linear foot. That means a 8ft piece of .020 would
weight 1.84lbs more. If you used 6 sheets per wings, that would be a
little over 11 lbs per wing or 22 lbs for both. Could be over 30 for
the whole aircraft. Not bad considering the benefits. A ton easier to
work with, helps with beer canning, doesn't dent near as easy and so on.
That's not counting the added strength. Zenith must saw the
advantages, like I said earlier, the 750 wings use it.
Anyway, just thought I'd pipe in for what it's worth. Take care, Larry
N1234L
Robert Pelland wrote:
> Jon,
>
> I figured it out a little while back with one of the local suppliers, and by
doing so, there is a approx. 30 lbs weight penalty, and an increase in strength
of the aircraft of 25%, not to mention eliminating a good portion of the oil
canning.
>
> fly safe
> Robert
> the 701 & 750 scratch
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mcjon77
> To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:19 PM
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins?
>
>
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Just wanted to know if anyone has tried substituting .020 for the .016 skins
on the fuselage and wings. I thought that their might be a discussion about
this before, but after searching, I couldn't find it.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --------
> Jon McDonald
> Building Sonex #1287
> Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288565#288565
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
Larry,
I think we are both very close to the total weight increase. It was
some time ago, but I seem to recall how we arrived at the numbers. The
local aluminum supplier, has all his pricing on a dollar per pound
basis, so we took the weights supplied by the mill for both thicknesses,
( all weights are calculated by the square foot and not linear )
multiplied by the amount of sheets needed, and we came to about thirty
pounds, give or take a few, for the complete airframe.
Personally I used the .020 everywhere the .016 was called for, and never
regretted my decision, especially when the time came to manipulate ( I
always work alone ) the 12' sheets.
Larry, and by the way, we are not arguing, just expressing are own
opinions :o)
Fly safe
Robert
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the
skins?
Not wanting to argue, but it struck me that your weight gain might be
a
little off or maybe not. I did some calculating using the weights
supplied in the Airparts Inc. catalog. The difference between .016
and
.020 is +.23lbs per linear foot. That means a 8ft piece of .020 would
weight 1.84lbs more. If you used 6 sheets per wings, that would be a
little over 11 lbs per wing or 22 lbs for both. Could be over 30 for
the whole aircraft. Not bad considering the benefits. A ton easier
to
work with, helps with beer canning, doesn't dent near as easy and so
on.
That's not counting the added strength. Zenith must saw the
advantages, like I said earlier, the 750 wings use it.
Anyway, just thought I'd pipe in for what it's worth. Take care,
Larry
N1234L
Robert Pelland wrote:
> Jon,
>
> I figured it out a little while back with one of the local
suppliers, and by doing so, there is a approx. 30 lbs weight penalty,
and an increase in strength of the aircraft of 25%, not to mention
eliminating a good portion of the oil canning.
>
> fly safe
> Robert
> the 701 & 750 scratch
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mcjon77
> To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:19 PM
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the
skins?
>
>
<mcjon77@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Just wanted to know if anyone has tried substituting .020 for the
.016 skins on the fuselage and wings. I thought that their might be a
discussion about this before, but after searching, I couldn't find it.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --------
> Jon McDonald
> Building Sonex #1287
> Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288565#288565
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
Spruce has a table with weight per sqr ft. Look at the bottom of this page:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/mepages/aluminfo.php
It is fuzzy but legible. If you have a printed catalog the table is there
too.
-- Craig
_____
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Pelland
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins?
Larry,
I think we are both very close to the total weight increase. It was some
time ago, but I seem to recall how we arrived at the numbers. The local
aluminum supplier, has all his pricing on a dollar per pound basis, so we
took the weights supplied by the mill for both thicknesses, ( all weights
are calculated by the square foot and not linear ) multiplied by the amount
of sheets needed, and we came to about thirty pounds, give or take a few,
for the complete airframe.
Personally I used the .020 everywhere the .016 was called for, and never
regretted my decision, especially when the time came to manipulate ( I
always work alone ) the 12' sheets.
Larry, and by the way, we are not arguing, just expressing are own opinions
:o)
Fly safe
Robert
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry <mailto:lrm@skyhawg.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins?
Not wanting to argue, but it struck me that your weight gain might be a
little off or maybe not. I did some calculating using the weights
supplied in the Airparts Inc. catalog. The difference between .016 and
.020 is +.23lbs per linear foot. That means a 8ft piece of .020 would
weight 1.84lbs more. If you used 6 sheets per wings, that would be a
little over 11 lbs per wing or 22 lbs for both. Could be over 30 for
the whole aircraft. Not bad considering the benefits. A ton easier to
work with, helps with beer canning, doesn't dent near as easy and so on.
That's not counting the added strength. Zenith must saw the
advantages, like I said earlier, the 750 wings use it.
Anyway, just thought I'd pipe in for what it's worth. Take care, Larry
N1234L
Robert Pelland wrote:
> Jon,
>
> I figured it out a little while back with one of the local suppliers, and
by doing so, there is a approx. 30 lbs weight penalty, and an increase in
strength of the aircraft of 25%, not to mention eliminating a good portion
of the oil canning.
>
> fly safe
> Robert
> the 701 & 750 scratch
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mcjon77
> To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:19 PM
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins?
>
>
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Just wanted to know if anyone has tried substituting .020 for the .016
skins on the fuselage and wings. I thought that their might be a discussion
about this before, but after searching, I couldn't find it.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --------
> Jon McDonald
> Building Sonex #1287
> Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288565#288565
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> p; Features Chat, http://www.nbsp;
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List> via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c====
===========
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
When I was considering scratch building my 701 I looked at using .020
instead of .016 for all of the parts. I found a 35 pound increase in the
weight. .020 is a little easier to handle but not that much. Like a lot of
builders just looking to start building, I thought I had a lot of great
ideas to improve the design. It turns out that I used some of my ideas, and
I like and use them every time I fly. But most of my ideas never made it
into the build, I found most had no real advantage as to final weight or fly
ability.
If my 701 was 35 pounds heavier I would have to leave behind the stove and
food on my camping trip. Not an option!
As far as "fixing" some problems, I'm not sure what they are. The 701 has
not had a in-flight structural failure in 20 years, so I'm not sure you need
to make it 25% stronger and I have not heard of any metal fatigue from oil
canning. But it will sure tell you when you are off the ball. Nothing a
good headset won't fix.
I have had my 701 flying for about a year now and oil canning is not and
issue for me.
I recently saw a Savannah at a fly in with Pega-Stol wings, what a
mechanical nightmare and heavy. There is a reason a number of people have
gone out of business trying to make that wing work and nothing but bad
reviews on assembling them. And a very small advantage in top speed. I
don't know about you, but I didn't build this plane to go fast and loose
STOL performance.
Mark S.
701/912ULS
80 hrs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry" <lrm@skyhawg.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins?
>
> I was over at a friends yesterday and noticed that his 750 has .020 skins
> on the wings. Zenith continues to get wiser. Pegastol wings always used
> .020 and twice the ribs. Just some info. Larry
>
> John Marzulli wrote:
>> This has been covered on the older combined Zenith list. A few people
>> have
>> done it, and it has been approved by Zenith.
>>
>> John Marzulli
>>
>> http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
>> http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
>> http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 7:19 PM, mcjon77 <mcjon77@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> Just wanted to know if anyone has tried substituting .020 for the .016
>>> skins on the fuselage and wings. I thought that their might be a
>>> discussion
>>> about this before, but after searching, I couldn't find it.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Jon McDonald
>>> Building Sonex #1287
>>> Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288565#288565
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 9
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Larry.
Are you flying a Beech Duke now? The N# at the end of your e-mail is
N1234L.
Mark S.
Do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
.016 weighs .225 lbs per square foot according to Wicks Aircraft.
.020 weighs .282 lbs per square foot according to Wicks Aircraft.
this means a difference of .057lbs per square foot.
A 4x12 sheet of aluminum is 48 square feet.
This means that there is a 2.736 lbs increase per sheet used.
My bet is that it is somewhere between 30-35lbs difference (11-13 sheets).
--------
Jon McDonald
Building Sonex #1287
Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288658#288658
Message 11
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Folks,
We had our DAR inspection yesterday and passed! Yea!
George Race made me a data plate with his CNC machine. The DAR was really impressed
with it.
If you are looking for a data plate for your project I recommend George and his
CNC machine.
--------
Tommy Walker
N8701 - Anniston, AL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288664#288664
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/21_191.jpg
Message 12
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Congratulations Tommy! You now have the newest 701 in the world! Probably!
Well done! My data plate is a cheap one from some supply company. I
think I'll have George make me a new one!
Keep us informed about the first flight.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tommy Walker" <twalker@cableone.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 6:09 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Data Plate
> <twalker@cableone.net>
>
> Folks,
>
> We had our DAR inspection yesterday and passed! Yea!
>
> George Race made me a data plate with his CNC machine. The DAR was really
> impressed with it.
>
> If you are looking for a data plate for your project I recommend George
> and his CNC machine.
>
> --------
> Tommy Walker
> N8701 - Anniston, AL
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288664#288664
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/21_191.jpg
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
Well said Mark as nice as it looks .020 is 1/4 thicker hence 1/4 heavier. A little
oil canning sounds much better than trees smacking an overweighted plane
Sent from my iPod
On Feb 28, 2010, at 2:47 PM, "Mark Sherman" <n752ms@softcom.net> wrote:
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