---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith701801-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/28/10: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:23 AM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Robert Pelland) 2. 05:56 AM - Chat Reminder for "Digesters" (George Race) 3. 07:04 AM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Larry McFarland) 4. 09:41 AM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Larry) 5. 10:04 AM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Larry) 6. 10:58 AM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Robert Pelland) 7. 11:04 AM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Craig Payne) 8. 11:48 AM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Mark Sherman) 9. 01:28 PM - (Mark Sherman) 10. 03:57 PM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (mcjon77) 11. 04:12 PM - Data Plate (Tommy Walker) 12. 04:58 PM - Re: Data Plate (BokKat) 13. 11:50 PM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (mksoucy@yahoo.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:33 AM PST US From: "Robert Pelland" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? Jon, I figured it out a little while back with one of the local suppliers, and by doing so, there is a approx. 30 lbs weight penalty, and an increase in strength of the aircraft of 25%, not to mention eliminating a good portion of the oil canning. fly safe Robert the 701 & 750 scratch ----- Original Message ----- From: mcjon77 To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:19 PM Subject: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? Hi guys, Just wanted to know if anyone has tried substituting .020 for the .016 skins on the fuselage and wings. I thought that their might be a discussion about this before, but after searching, I couldn't find it. Thanks! -------- Jon McDonald Building Sonex #1287 Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288565#288565 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:24 AM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: Zenith701801-List: Chat Reminder for "Digesters" Live Chat Room every Monday evening around 8:00 EDT www.mykitairplane.com Click on the Chat Room link at the top of the page. George ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:13 AM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? Hi Jon, I built a 601HDS and used .020 where .016 was called out on the plans. Just handling .016 is a frustration because it will bend to nearly any soft touch, handling etc. I looked at .020 that could easily be damaged thru handling and went to .025. The net result was a better looking set of wings and fuselage. I've seen 701 upper wings skins hanging on a wall and watched the shape change while sunshine and shadows moved across them. By all means, go with .020 and avoid .016 where possible. Do figure the weight added and work it up from there. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com mcjon77 wrote: > > Hi guys, > > Just wanted to know if anyone has tried substituting .020 for the .016 skins on the fuselage and wings. I thought that their might be a discussion about this before, but after searching, I couldn't find it. > > Thanks! > > -------- > Jon McDonald > Building Sonex #1287 > Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288565#288565 > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:25 AM PST US From: Larry Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? I was over at a friends yesterday and noticed that his 750 has .020 skins on the wings. Zenith continues to get wiser. Pegastol wings always used .020 and twice the ribs. Just some info. Larry John Marzulli wrote: > This has been covered on the older combined Zenith list. A few people have > done it, and it has been approved by Zenith. > > John Marzulli > > http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/ > http://MarzulliPhoto.net/ > http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ > > > On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 7:19 PM, mcjon77 wrote: > >> >> Hi guys, >> >> Just wanted to know if anyone has tried substituting .020 for the .016 >> skins on the fuselage and wings. I thought that their might be a discussion >> about this before, but after searching, I couldn't find it. >> >> Thanks! >> >> -------- >> Jon McDonald >> Building Sonex #1287 >> Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288565#288565 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:06 AM PST US From: Larry Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? Not wanting to argue, but it struck me that your weight gain might be a little off or maybe not. I did some calculating using the weights supplied in the Airparts Inc. catalog. The difference between .016 and .020 is +.23lbs per linear foot. That means a 8ft piece of .020 would weight 1.84lbs more. If you used 6 sheets per wings, that would be a little over 11 lbs per wing or 22 lbs for both. Could be over 30 for the whole aircraft. Not bad considering the benefits. A ton easier to work with, helps with beer canning, doesn't dent near as easy and so on. That's not counting the added strength. Zenith must saw the advantages, like I said earlier, the 750 wings use it. Anyway, just thought I'd pipe in for what it's worth. Take care, Larry N1234L Robert Pelland wrote: > Jon, > > I figured it out a little while back with one of the local suppliers, and by doing so, there is a approx. 30 lbs weight penalty, and an increase in strength of the aircraft of 25%, not to mention eliminating a good portion of the oil canning. > > fly safe > Robert > the 701 & 750 scratch > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: mcjon77 > To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:19 PM > Subject: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? > > > > Hi guys, > > Just wanted to know if anyone has tried substituting .020 for the .016 skins on the fuselage and wings. I thought that their might be a discussion about this before, but after searching, I couldn't find it. > > Thanks! > > -------- > Jon McDonald > Building Sonex #1287 > Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288565#288565 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:58:20 AM PST US From: "Robert Pelland" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? Larry, I think we are both very close to the total weight increase. It was some time ago, but I seem to recall how we arrived at the numbers. The local aluminum supplier, has all his pricing on a dollar per pound basis, so we took the weights supplied by the mill for both thicknesses, ( all weights are calculated by the square foot and not linear ) multiplied by the amount of sheets needed, and we came to about thirty pounds, give or take a few, for the complete airframe. Personally I used the .020 everywhere the .016 was called for, and never regretted my decision, especially when the time came to manipulate ( I always work alone ) the 12' sheets. Larry, and by the way, we are not arguing, just expressing are own opinions :o) Fly safe Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 1:03 PM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? Not wanting to argue, but it struck me that your weight gain might be a little off or maybe not. I did some calculating using the weights supplied in the Airparts Inc. catalog. The difference between .016 and .020 is +.23lbs per linear foot. That means a 8ft piece of .020 would weight 1.84lbs more. If you used 6 sheets per wings, that would be a little over 11 lbs per wing or 22 lbs for both. Could be over 30 for the whole aircraft. Not bad considering the benefits. A ton easier to work with, helps with beer canning, doesn't dent near as easy and so on. That's not counting the added strength. Zenith must saw the advantages, like I said earlier, the 750 wings use it. Anyway, just thought I'd pipe in for what it's worth. Take care, Larry N1234L Robert Pelland wrote: > Jon, > > I figured it out a little while back with one of the local suppliers, and by doing so, there is a approx. 30 lbs weight penalty, and an increase in strength of the aircraft of 25%, not to mention eliminating a good portion of the oil canning. > > fly safe > Robert > the 701 & 750 scratch > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: mcjon77 > To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:19 PM > Subject: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? > > > > Hi guys, > > Just wanted to know if anyone has tried substituting .020 for the .016 skins on the fuselage and wings. I thought that their might be a discussion about this before, but after searching, I couldn't find it. > > Thanks! > > -------- > Jon McDonald > Building Sonex #1287 > Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288565#288565 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:41 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? Spruce has a table with weight per sqr ft. Look at the bottom of this page: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/mepages/aluminfo.php It is fuzzy but legible. If you have a printed catalog the table is there too. -- Craig _____ From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Pelland Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 10:58 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? Larry, I think we are both very close to the total weight increase. It was some time ago, but I seem to recall how we arrived at the numbers. The local aluminum supplier, has all his pricing on a dollar per pound basis, so we took the weights supplied by the mill for both thicknesses, ( all weights are calculated by the square foot and not linear ) multiplied by the amount of sheets needed, and we came to about thirty pounds, give or take a few, for the complete airframe. Personally I used the .020 everywhere the .016 was called for, and never regretted my decision, especially when the time came to manipulate ( I always work alone ) the 12' sheets. Larry, and by the way, we are not arguing, just expressing are own opinions :o) Fly safe Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 1:03 PM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? Not wanting to argue, but it struck me that your weight gain might be a little off or maybe not. I did some calculating using the weights supplied in the Airparts Inc. catalog. The difference between .016 and .020 is +.23lbs per linear foot. That means a 8ft piece of .020 would weight 1.84lbs more. If you used 6 sheets per wings, that would be a little over 11 lbs per wing or 22 lbs for both. Could be over 30 for the whole aircraft. Not bad considering the benefits. A ton easier to work with, helps with beer canning, doesn't dent near as easy and so on. That's not counting the added strength. Zenith must saw the advantages, like I said earlier, the 750 wings use it. Anyway, just thought I'd pipe in for what it's worth. Take care, Larry N1234L Robert Pelland wrote: > Jon, > > I figured it out a little while back with one of the local suppliers, and by doing so, there is a approx. 30 lbs weight penalty, and an increase in strength of the aircraft of 25%, not to mention eliminating a good portion of the oil canning. > > fly safe > Robert > the 701 & 750 scratch > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: mcjon77 > To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:19 PM > Subject: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? > > > > Hi guys, > > Just wanted to know if anyone has tried substituting .020 for the .016 skins on the fuselage and wings. I thought that their might be a discussion about this before, but after searching, I couldn't find it. > > Thanks! > > -------- > Jon McDonald > Building Sonex #1287 > Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288565#288565 > > > > > > > > > > > p; Features Chat, http://www.nbsp; via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c==== =========== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:48:28 AM PST US From: "Mark Sherman" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? When I was considering scratch building my 701 I looked at using .020 instead of .016 for all of the parts. I found a 35 pound increase in the weight. .020 is a little easier to handle but not that much. Like a lot of builders just looking to start building, I thought I had a lot of great ideas to improve the design. It turns out that I used some of my ideas, and I like and use them every time I fly. But most of my ideas never made it into the build, I found most had no real advantage as to final weight or fly ability. If my 701 was 35 pounds heavier I would have to leave behind the stove and food on my camping trip. Not an option! As far as "fixing" some problems, I'm not sure what they are. The 701 has not had a in-flight structural failure in 20 years, so I'm not sure you need to make it 25% stronger and I have not heard of any metal fatigue from oil canning. But it will sure tell you when you are off the ball. Nothing a good headset won't fix. I have had my 701 flying for about a year now and oil canning is not and issue for me. I recently saw a Savannah at a fly in with Pega-Stol wings, what a mechanical nightmare and heavy. There is a reason a number of people have gone out of business trying to make that wing work and nothing but bad reviews on assembling them. And a very small advantage in top speed. I don't know about you, but I didn't build this plane to go fast and loose STOL performance. Mark S. 701/912ULS 80 hrs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry" Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 9:40 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? > > I was over at a friends yesterday and noticed that his 750 has .020 skins > on the wings. Zenith continues to get wiser. Pegastol wings always used > .020 and twice the ribs. Just some info. Larry > > John Marzulli wrote: >> This has been covered on the older combined Zenith list. A few people >> have >> done it, and it has been approved by Zenith. >> >> John Marzulli >> >> http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/ >> http://MarzulliPhoto.net/ >> http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 7:19 PM, mcjon77 wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi guys, >>> >>> Just wanted to know if anyone has tried substituting .020 for the .016 >>> skins on the fuselage and wings. I thought that their might be a >>> discussion >>> about this before, but after searching, I couldn't find it. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> -------- >>> Jon McDonald >>> Building Sonex #1287 >>> Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288565#288565 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:28:57 PM PST US From: "Mark Sherman" Subject: Zenith701801-List: Larry. Are you flying a Beech Duke now? The N# at the end of your e-mail is N1234L. Mark S. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:11 PM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? From: "mcjon77" .016 weighs .225 lbs per square foot according to Wicks Aircraft. .020 weighs .282 lbs per square foot according to Wicks Aircraft. this means a difference of .057lbs per square foot. A 4x12 sheet of aluminum is 48 square feet. This means that there is a 2.736 lbs increase per sheet used. My bet is that it is somewhere between 30-35lbs difference (11-13 sheets). -------- Jon McDonald Building Sonex #1287 Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288658#288658 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:12:06 PM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Data Plate From: "Tommy Walker" Folks, We had our DAR inspection yesterday and passed! Yea! George Race made me a data plate with his CNC machine. The DAR was really impressed with it. If you are looking for a data plate for your project I recommend George and his CNC machine. -------- Tommy Walker N8701 - Anniston, AL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288664#288664 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/21_191.jpg ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:20 PM PST US From: "BokKat" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Data Plate Congratulations Tommy! You now have the newest 701 in the world! Probably! Well done! My data plate is a cheap one from some supply company. I think I'll have George make me a new one! Keep us informed about the first flight. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tommy Walker" Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 6:09 PM Subject: Zenith701801-List: Data Plate > > > Folks, > > We had our DAR inspection yesterday and passed! Yea! > > George Race made me a data plate with his CNC machine. The DAR was really > impressed with it. > > If you are looking for a data plate for your project I recommend George > and his CNC machine. > > -------- > Tommy Walker > N8701 - Anniston, AL > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288664#288664 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/21_191.jpg > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:11 PM PST US From: "mksoucy@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? Well said Mark as nice as it looks .020 is 1/4 thicker hence 1/4 heavier. A little oil canning sounds much better than trees smacking an overweighted plane Sent from my iPod On Feb 28, 2010, at 2:47 PM, "Mark Sherman" wrote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith701801-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith701801-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith701801-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith701801-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.