Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:44 AM - Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (JG)
2. 05:46 AM - Re: Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (John Bolding)
3. 06:03 AM - Chat Room Reminder (George Race)
4. 07:55 AM - Re: Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Larry McFarland)
5. 08:38 AM - Re: Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (BokKat)
6. 08:52 AM - Re: Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Robert Pelland)
7. 08:52 AM - Re: Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Mark Sherman)
8. 08:53 AM - Re: Data Plate (Randall J Hebert)
9. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Robert Pelland)
10. 09:41 AM - Re: Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (John Marzulli)
11. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Randy L. Thwing)
12. 11:44 AM - Re: Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Larry McFarland)
13. 12:55 PM - Re: Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (Mark Sherman)
14. 03:55 PM - Re: Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? (JG)
15. 03:56 PM - Rudder and evevator Cable Tension (philip smith)
16. 06:48 PM - Controlling Rotax 912 oil temp (Les Goldner)
17. 06:57 PM - Re: Controlling Rotax 912 oil temp (BokKat)
18. 07:24 PM - Re: Controlling Rotax 912 oil temp (JG)
19. 11:07 PM - Official Zenith701801-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
20. 11:11 PM - Official Zenith701801-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
21. 11:17 PM - Re: Rudder and evevator Cable Tension (jetboy)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
.020 is a ridiculous weight penalty for such an aircraft.
Oil canning is easily eliminated by .016 angle in the fuselage, and
intermediate foam ribs in the wing, both stuck in with Sikkaflex or similar
polyurethane adhesive.
A couple of pounds maybe, and very effective. Tried and proven.
JG
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:34 PM, mksoucy@yahoo.com <mksoucy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> mksoucy@yahoo.com>
>
> Well said Mark as nice as it looks .020 is 1/4 thicker hence 1/4 heavier. A
> little oil canning sounds much better than trees smacking an overweighted
> plane
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Feb 28, 2010, at 2:47 PM, "Mark Sherman" <n752ms@softcom.net> wrote:
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
In looking back after messing around with these little airplanes for almost
40 yrs I can say with conviction that the most important aspect of building
an airplane you can enjoy to the fullest extent is KEEP IT LIGHT.
I've also discovered that first time builders are more commonly guilty of
this sin than someone who understands the ramifications of building a lead
sled.
I have been blessed to have met and personally know(n) several of the well
known designers of small aircraft , Van (I built an EARLY RV) CG Taylor
(yep, THAT one), Dave Thurston, John Thorp, Dave Blanton, Bob Barrows and
EVERY ONE of them would beat it into your head to not add unnecessary
weight. Thorp wrote an article for Sport Aviation in the 70's I think about
adding a multifunction stick grip (1#) to the top of the stick in a T18 and
he chased that ONE pound all thru the structure showing how it affected
performance and how other things were influenced by it.
Boeing and Airbus would send you a BIG pile of $$ if you could tell them how
to save 30# on one of their aircraft, giving up that much weight on a 1100#
plane is foolish. (I'm being generous with the word foolish)
I've got a buddy that just finished a Glasair TD, he has constant speed
prop, LOTS of filler and paint, heavier engine, 80 gals worth of tanks,
autopilot, Garmin 530 and every instrument known to man , radio stack that
would do justice to a
Gulfstream V, leather upholstery.... you get the picture. Would you believe
his airplane is 280# heavier than mine, our s/n's are 14 apart. Can't wait
to outrun/outclimb/fly slower on less fuel in an aircraft that has 30 less
hp. than he has.
Add ONLY Lightness.
John
Message 3
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| Subject: | Chat Room Reminder |
Live Chat Room every Monday evening around 8:00 EDT
www.mykitairplane.com <blocked::http://www.mykitairplane.com/>
Click on the Chat Room link at the top of the page.
George
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
I agree with you John, but there are good reasons to use .020 over .016
when the .016 is too frail for the job and so easily damaged.
Depends on your perspective and how long you want to keep the plane.
Better advice is to drop 30 lbs off your own frame.
I've done that and kept it off.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
John Bolding wrote:
> <jnbolding1@teleshare.net>
>
> In looking back after messing around with these little airplanes for
> almost 40 yrs I can say with conviction that the most important aspect
> of building an airplane you can enjoy to the fullest extent is KEEP IT
> LIGHT.
>
> I've also discovered that first time builders are more commonly guilty
> of this sin than someone who understands the ramifications of building
> a lead sled.
>
> I have been blessed to have met and personally know(n) several of the
> well known designers of small aircraft , Van (I built an EARLY RV)
> CG Taylor (yep, THAT one), Dave Thurston, John Thorp, Dave Blanton,
> Bob Barrows and EVERY ONE of them would beat it into your head to not
> add unnecessary weight. Thorp wrote an article for Sport Aviation in
> the 70's I think about adding a multifunction stick grip (1#) to the
> top of the stick in a T18 and he chased that ONE pound all thru the
> structure showing how it affected performance and how other things
> were influenced by it.
>
> Boeing and Airbus would send you a BIG pile of $$ if you could tell
> them how to save 30# on one of their aircraft, giving up that much
> weight on a 1100# plane is foolish. (I'm being generous with the word
> foolish)
>
> I've got a buddy that just finished a Glasair TD, he has constant
> speed prop, LOTS of filler and paint, heavier engine, 80 gals worth of
> tanks, autopilot, Garmin 530 and every instrument known to man , radio
> stack that would do justice to a
> Gulfstream V, leather upholstery.... you get the picture. Would you
> believe his airplane is 280# heavier than mine, our s/n's are 14
> apart. Can't wait to outrun/outclimb/fly slower on less fuel in an
> aircraft that has 30 less hp. than he has.
>
> Add ONLY Lightness.
>
> John
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
Let us all know how you did that, Larry! LOL
I took off the slats to run some V speed tests without slats and the first
thing I did was hit some small bird and dent in the leading edge! I haven't
painted it yet so I'm usure how to get rid of the dent. One thing I've been
considering after reading this topic is that if I have to reskin the leading
edges of the wing before painting, I'd go to heavier aluminum. Wouldn't add
much weight if one only did the leading edge and it could add a bit of
stiffness to the wind, not that that's required. Wouldn't matter if you
"goose" a goose or other heavy bird but might help with the little guys.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry McFarland" <larry@macsmachine.com>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins?
> <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
>
> I agree with you John, but there are good reasons to use .020 over .016
> when the .016 is too frail for the job and so easily damaged.
> Depends on your perspective and how long you want to keep the plane.
> Better advice is to drop 30 lbs off your own frame.
> I've done that and kept it off.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
> John Bolding wrote:
>> <jnbolding1@teleshare.net>
>>
>> In looking back after messing around with these little airplanes for
>> almost 40 yrs I can say with conviction that the most important aspect of
>> building an airplane you can enjoy to the fullest extent is KEEP IT
>> LIGHT.
>>
>> I've also discovered that first time builders are more commonly guilty of
>> this sin than someone who understands the ramifications of building a
>> lead sled.
>>
>> I have been blessed to have met and personally know(n) several of the
>> well known designers of small aircraft , Van (I built an EARLY RV) CG
>> Taylor (yep, THAT one), Dave Thurston, John Thorp, Dave Blanton, Bob
>> Barrows and EVERY ONE of them would beat it into your head to not add
>> unnecessary weight. Thorp wrote an article for Sport Aviation in the
>> 70's I think about adding a multifunction stick grip (1#) to the top of
>> the stick in a T18 and he chased that ONE pound all thru the structure
>> showing how it affected performance and how other things were influenced
>> by it.
>>
>> Boeing and Airbus would send you a BIG pile of $$ if you could tell them
>> how to save 30# on one of their aircraft, giving up that much weight on a
>> 1100# plane is foolish. (I'm being generous with the word foolish)
>>
>> I've got a buddy that just finished a Glasair TD, he has constant speed
>> prop, LOTS of filler and paint, heavier engine, 80 gals worth of tanks,
>> autopilot, Garmin 530 and every instrument known to man , radio stack
>> that would do justice to a
>> Gulfstream V, leather upholstery.... you get the picture. Would you
>> believe his airplane is 280# heavier than mine, our s/n's are 14 apart.
>> Can't wait to outrun/outclimb/fly slower on less fuel in an aircraft
>> that has 30 less hp. than he has.
>>
>> Add ONLY Lightness.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
Larry,
It look's as though there are as many opinions on the 30 lbs issue as
there are 701 flyers. As for myself I can live with the extra 30 lbs (
everybody and his dog, knows that lighter is better ) since I fly alone.
I also considerablely reduced the wing loading by increasing the
wingspan ( I have a copy of Mr. C. Heinz original sketches ) by 550mm on
each wing. I was not comfortable in any increase outboard of the strut
attachment point, so as not to increase the fragility of the wing, the
extra material was inserted between the fuselage and the outer strut
attachment bracket.
My humble calculations ( I might be wrong on this ) give me a new wing
loading of 7.85 for the extended wingspan, as compared to the regular
9.0 that is given for the normal 701 wing, so I think it will more then
compensate for the slight increase in weight. I also have an 80 HP
Rotax mounted, and it is much lighter then all the auto conversions that
are presently flying quite well. One way or the other it is an
experimental, and the decision was ultimately mine, and one that I can
live with it.
By the way, I don't sleep out, I don't need to haul a stove, and if I
ever need to cook, I can do it on the hot coals. :o), just
kidding,,,,,
Robert
the 701 & 750 scratch
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry McFarland
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the
skins?
<larry@macsmachine.com>
I agree with you John, but there are good reasons to use .020 over
.016
when the .016 is too frail for the job and so easily damaged.
Depends on your perspective and how long you want to keep the plane.
Better advice is to drop 30 lbs off your own frame.
I've done that and kept it off.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
John Bolding wrote:
> <jnbolding1@teleshare.net>
>
> In looking back after messing around with these little airplanes for
> almost 40 yrs I can say with conviction that the most important
aspect
> of building an airplane you can enjoy to the fullest extent is KEEP
IT
> LIGHT.
>
> I've also discovered that first time builders are more commonly
guilty
> of this sin than someone who understands the ramifications of
building
> a lead sled.
>
> I have been blessed to have met and personally know(n) several of
the
> well known designers of small aircraft , Van (I built an EARLY RV)
> CG Taylor (yep, THAT one), Dave Thurston, John Thorp, Dave Blanton,
> Bob Barrows and EVERY ONE of them would beat it into your head to
not
> add unnecessary weight. Thorp wrote an article for Sport Aviation
in
> the 70's I think about adding a multifunction stick grip (1#) to the
> top of the stick in a T18 and he chased that ONE pound all thru the
> structure showing how it affected performance and how other things
> were influenced by it.
>
> Boeing and Airbus would send you a BIG pile of $$ if you could tell
> them how to save 30# on one of their aircraft, giving up that much
> weight on a 1100# plane is foolish. (I'm being generous with the
word
> foolish)
>
> I've got a buddy that just finished a Glasair TD, he has constant
> speed prop, LOTS of filler and paint, heavier engine, 80 gals worth
of
> tanks, autopilot, Garmin 530 and every instrument known to man ,
radio
> stack that would do justice to a
> Gulfstream V, leather upholstery.... you get the picture. Would you
> believe his airplane is 280# heavier than mine, our s/n's are 14
> apart. Can't wait to outrun/outclimb/fly slower on less fuel in
an
> aircraft that has 30 less hp. than he has.
>
> Add ONLY Lightness.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
Larry.
You say the .016 is to frail, what facts do you base this on?
Mark S.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 1, 2010, at 7:48 AM, Larry McFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
wrote:
> >
>
>
> I agree with you John, but there are good reasons to use .020 over .
> 016 when the .016 is too frail for the job and so easily damaged.
> Depends on your perspective and how long you want to keep the plane.
> Better advice is to drop 30 lbs off your own frame.
> I've done that and kept it off.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
> John Bolding wrote:
>> >
>>
>> In looking back after messing around with these little airplanes
>> for almost 40 yrs I can say with conviction that the most important
>> aspect of building an airplane you can enjoy to the fullest extent
>> is KEEP IT LIGHT.
>>
>> I've also discovered that first time builders are more commonly
>> guilty of this sin than someone who understands the ramifications
>> of building a lead sled.
>>
>> I have been blessed to have met and personally know(n) several of
>> the well known designers of small aircraft , Van (I built an EARLY
>> RV) CG Taylor (yep, THAT one), Dave Thurston, John Thorp, Dave
>> Blanton, Bob Barrows and EVERY ONE of them would beat it into your
>> head to not add unnecessary weight. Thorp wrote an article for
>> Sport Aviation in the 70's I think about adding a multifunction
>> stick grip (1#) to the top of the stick in a T18 and he chased that
>> ONE pound all thru the structure showing how it affected
>> performance and how other things were influenced by it.
>>
>> Boeing and Airbus would send you a BIG pile of $$ if you could tell
>> them how to save 30# on one of their aircraft, giving up that much
>> weight on a 1100# plane is foolish. (I'm being generous with the
>> word foolish)
>>
>> I've got a buddy that just finished a Glasair TD, he has constant
>> speed prop, LOTS of filler and paint, heavier engine, 80 gals worth
>> of tanks, autopilot, Garmin 530 and every instrument known to man ,
>> radio stack that would do justice to a
>> Gulfstream V, leather upholstery.... you get the picture. Would
>> you believe his airplane is 280# heavier than mine, our s/n's are
>> 14 apart. Can't wait to outrun/outclimb/fly slower on less fuel
>> in an aircraft that has 30 less hp. than he has.
>>
>> Add ONLY Lightness.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 8
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|
Congrats Tommy
Mine has been delayed but I am using yours as a goal
Randall J Hebert
N7701P
Almost Finished, Yea right
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tommy
Walker
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 6:10 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Data Plate
<twalker@cableone.net>
Folks,
We had our DAR inspection yesterday and passed! Yea!
George Race made me a data plate with his CNC machine. The DAR was really
impressed with it.
If you are looking for a data plate for your project I recommend George and
his CNC machine.
--------
Tommy Walker
N8701 - Anniston, AL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288664#288664
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/21_191.jpg
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
Mark,
Although the fragility question was not addressed to me, I feel
compelled to respond to this one.
Purchase a sheet of 4' x 12' .016 aluminum get it into your workplace
and try, by your self, to move it around and manipulate the sheet
without causing any damage to it.
You will then know the real meaning of frail, with out the need of any
additional facts.
Build & fly safe
Robert
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Sherman
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the
skins?
<n752ms@softcom.net>
Larry.
You say the .016 is to frail, what facts do you base this on?
Mark S.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 1, 2010, at 7:48 AM, Larry McFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
wrote:
<larry@macsmachine.com
> >
>
>
> I agree with you John, but there are good reasons to use .020 over .
> 016 when the .016 is too frail for the job and so easily damaged.
> Depends on your perspective and how long you want to keep the plane.
> Better advice is to drop 30 lbs off your own frame.
> I've done that and kept it off.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
> John Bolding wrote:
<jnbolding1@teleshare.net
>> >
>>
>> In looking back after messing around with these little airplanes
>> for almost 40 yrs I can say with conviction that the most important
>> aspect of building an airplane you can enjoy to the fullest extent
>> is KEEP IT LIGHT.
>>
>> I've also discovered that first time builders are more commonly
>> guilty of this sin than someone who understands the ramifications
>> of building a lead sled.
>>
>> I have been blessed to have met and personally know(n) several of
>> the well known designers of small aircraft , Van (I built an EARLY
>> RV) CG Taylor (yep, THAT one), Dave Thurston, John Thorp, Dave
>> Blanton, Bob Barrows and EVERY ONE of them would beat it into your
>> head to not add unnecessary weight. Thorp wrote an article for
>> Sport Aviation in the 70's I think about adding a multifunction
>> stick grip (1#) to the top of the stick in a T18 and he chased that
>> ONE pound all thru the structure showing how it affected
>> performance and how other things were influenced by it.
>>
>> Boeing and Airbus would send you a BIG pile of $$ if you could tell
>> them how to save 30# on one of their aircraft, giving up that much
>> weight on a 1100# plane is foolish. (I'm being generous with the
>> word foolish)
>>
>> I've got a buddy that just finished a Glasair TD, he has constant
>> speed prop, LOTS of filler and paint, heavier engine, 80 gals worth
>> of tanks, autopilot, Garmin 530 and every instrument known to man ,
>> radio stack that would do justice to a
>> Gulfstream V, leather upholstery.... you get the picture. Would
>> you believe his airplane is 280# heavier than mine, our s/n's are
>> 14 apart. Can't wait to outrun/outclimb/fly slower on less fuel
>> in an aircraft that has 30 less hp. than he has.
>>
>> Add ONLY Lightness.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
My only problem handling and adding smilies to the skins came with the
wings. A better approach would have been to use multiple skins. This would
make it easier to get to the fuel tanks as well if you ever had to.
John Marzulli
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:48 AM, Larry McFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>wrote:
> larry@macsmachine.com>
>
>
> I agree with you John, but there are good reasons to use .020 over .016
> when the .016 is too frail for the job and so easily damaged.
> Depends on your perspective and how long you want to keep the plane. Better
> advice is to drop 30 lbs off your own frame.
> I've done that and kept it off.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
>
> John Bolding wrote:
>
>> jnbolding1@teleshare.net>
>>
>> In looking back after messing around with these little airplanes for
>> almost 40 yrs I can say with conviction that the most important aspect of
>> building an airplane you can enjoy to the fullest extent is KEEP IT LIGHT.
>>
>> I've also discovered that first time builders are more commonly guilty of
>> this sin than someone who understands the ramifications of building a lead
>> sled.
>>
>> I have been blessed to have met and personally know(n) several of the well
>> known designers of small aircraft , Van (I built an EARLY RV) CG Taylor
>> (yep, THAT one), Dave Thurston, John Thorp, Dave Blanton, Bob Barrows and
>> EVERY ONE of them would beat it into your head to not add unnecessary
>> weight. Thorp wrote an article for Sport Aviation in the 70's I think about
>> adding a multifunction stick grip (1#) to the top of the stick in a T18 and
>> he chased that ONE pound all thru the structure showing how it affected
>> performance and how other things were influenced by it.
>>
>> Boeing and Airbus would send you a BIG pile of $$ if you could tell them
>> how to save 30# on one of their aircraft, giving up that much weight on a
>> 1100# plane is foolish. (I'm being generous with the word foolish)
>>
>> I've got a buddy that just finished a Glasair TD, he has constant speed
>> prop, LOTS of filler and paint, heavier engine, 80 gals worth of tanks,
>> autopilot, Garmin 530 and every instrument known to man , radio stack that
>> would do justice to a
>> Gulfstream V, leather upholstery.... you get the picture. Would you
>> believe his airplane is 280# heavier than mine, our s/n's are 14 apart.
>> Can't wait to outrun/outclimb/fly slower on less fuel in an aircraft that
>> has 30 less hp. than he has.
>>
>> Add ONLY Lightness.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
Hello Listers:
It's interesting that the rear fuselage side/top skins aft of the cabin on
my '48 Bonanza are .016 2024 Alclad. The red ink markings are clearly
visible after 62 years.
Regards,
Randy, Las Vegas
>
> Larry.
>
> You say the .016 is to frail, what facts do you base this on?
>
> Mark S.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
Mark,
I made the original parts called out for .016 and in handling them, I
found finger indents along the edges I handled. The material is
probably damaged anywhere it will be in contact with tools, people that
lean on the aircraft and especially at points of entry and exit.
.016 is light and fine for the undersides of a plane, but I'd not use it
where bugs hit, hands rest, tools or people lean on it to look it over.
As far as loosing 30 lbs of fat; I used the fruit diet where you eat
nothing but fruit midnight to noon. Then you can eat anything you want
the other
12 hours. For me it was a small package of cookies at 12:15 and a
regular sandwich and evening meal. I never snack late at night, but this
diet works
well because you have a lot of energy all day, never slog down because
of the diet. It's good for 2 to 4 lbs a week.
I also run 2 miles each morning to have a good metabolic rate that keeps
everything going at my tender 70 years.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Do not archive
Mark Sherman wrote:
> <n752ms@softcom.net>
>
> Larry.
>
> You say the .016 is to frail, what facts do you base this on?
>
> Mark S.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
Robert.
This is accomplished by rolling the material up before you move it.
I have completed my build, all by my self and the aircraft is flying. I
had two dings from handling and spent about an hour fixing them before
painting. That time is spent and gone. Not much of an investment. You
will be hauling around the thirty extra pounds for the rest of the life
of the airplane. That is quite an expense, (just in fuel costs) with no
facts to show it was necessary.
The quote that Larry made is "the .016" is to frail for the job" not
that it is to frail to handle.
So, I would like to know the facts as to why it is to "frail" for the
job of skins on a 701. The history of the aircraft does not support the
statement. Show me the aircraft that had the skins replaced because of
material failure or because of oil canning fatigue, under normal
operations.
Mark S.
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Pelland
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the
skins?
Mark,
Although the fragility question was not addressed to me, I feel
compelled to respond to this one.
Purchase a sheet of 4' x 12' .016 aluminum get it into your workplace
and try, by your self, to move it around and manipulate the sheet
without causing any damage to it.
You will then know the real meaning of frail, with out the need of any
additional facts.
Build & fly safe
Robert
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Sherman
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on
the skins?
<n752ms@softcom.net>
Larry.
You say the .016 is to frail, what facts do you base this on?
Mark S.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 1, 2010, at 7:48 AM, Larry McFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
wrote:
<larry@macsmachine.com
> >
>
>
> I agree with you John, but there are good reasons to use .020 over
.
> 016 when the .016 is too frail for the job and so easily damaged.
> Depends on your perspective and how long you want to keep the
plane.
> Better advice is to drop 30 lbs off your own frame.
> I've done that and kept it off.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
> John Bolding wrote:
<jnbolding1@teleshare.net
>> >
>>
>> In looking back after messing around with these little airplanes
>> for almost 40 yrs I can say with conviction that the most
important
>> aspect of building an airplane you can enjoy to the fullest
extent
>> is KEEP IT LIGHT.
>>
>> I've also discovered that first time builders are more commonly
>> guilty of this sin than someone who understands the ramifications
>> of building a lead sled.
>>
>> I have been blessed to have met and personally know(n) several of
>> the well known designers of small aircraft , Van (I built an
EARLY
>> RV) CG Taylor (yep, THAT one), Dave Thurston, John Thorp, Dave
>> Blanton, Bob Barrows and EVERY ONE of them would beat it into
your
>> head to not add unnecessary weight. Thorp wrote an article for
>> Sport Aviation in the 70's I think about adding a multifunction
>> stick grip (1#) to the top of the stick in a T18 and he chased
that
>> ONE pound all thru the structure showing how it affected
>> performance and how other things were influenced by it.
>>
>> Boeing and Airbus would send you a BIG pile of $$ if you could
tell
>> them how to save 30# on one of their aircraft, giving up that
much
>> weight on a 1100# plane is foolish. (I'm being generous with the
>> word foolish)
>>
>> I've got a buddy that just finished a Glasair TD, he has
constant
>> speed prop, LOTS of filler and paint, heavier engine, 80 gals
worth
>> of tanks, autopilot, Garmin 530 and every instrument known to man
,
>> radio stack that would do justice to a
>> Gulfstream V, leather upholstery.... you get the picture. Would
>> you believe his airplane is 280# heavier than mine, our s/n's are
>> 14 apart. Can't wait to outrun/outclimb/fly slower on less fuel
>> in an aircraft that has 30 less hp. than he has.
>>
>> Add ONLY Lightness.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>http://www.nbsp; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
================
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting .016 for .020 on the skins? |
*Very well said, JB!*
* *
*For all builders who hope for good STOL performance from their 701, the
best thing you could do is print that out and post it in your workshop, and
read it and heed it every day......*
*
*
*JG
*
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 11:37 PM, John Bolding <jnbolding1@teleshare.net>wrote:
> jnbolding1@teleshare.net>
>
> In looking back after messing around with these little airplanes for almost
> 40 yrs I can say with conviction that the most important aspect of building
> an airplane you can enjoy to the fullest extent is KEEP IT LIGHT.
>
> I've also discovered that first time builders are more commonly guilty of
> this sin than someone who understands the ramifications of building a lead
> sled.
>
> I have been blessed to have met and personally know(n) several of the well
> known designers of small aircraft , Van (I built an EARLY RV) CG Taylor
> (yep, THAT one), Dave Thurston, John Thorp, Dave Blanton, Bob Barrows and
> EVERY ONE of them would beat it into your head to not add unnecessary
> weight. Thorp wrote an article for Sport Aviation in the 70's I think about
> adding a multifunction stick grip (1#) to the top of the stick in a T18 and
> he chased that ONE pound all thru the structure showing how it affected
> performance and how other things were influenced by it.
>
> Boeing and Airbus would send you a BIG pile of $$ if you could tell them
> how to save 30# on one of their aircraft, giving up that much weight on a
> 1100# plane is foolish. (I'm being generous with the word foolish)
>
> I've got a buddy that just finished a Glasair TD, he has constant speed
> prop, LOTS of filler and paint, heavier engine, 80 gals worth of tanks,
> autopilot, Garmin 530 and every instrument known to man , radio stack that
> would do justice to a
> Gulfstream V, leather upholstery.... you get the picture. Would you
> believe his airplane is 280# heavier than mine, our s/n's are 14 apart.
> Can't wait to outrun/outclimb/fly slower on less fuel in an aircraft that
> has 30 less hp. than he has.
>
> Add ONLY Lightness.
>
> John
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Rudder and evevator Cable Tension |
Hi folks,
I'm finally ready to tighten up the turn buckles on the rudder and elevator
cables on my *CH 701*.
If I remember right, Caleb or Roger told me they use 18 # on the elevator
with the ubiquitous bungee cord on the top cable.
So I don't have to re-invent the wheel where did you folks put the bungee
cable - and one person said he used a spring system. All your thoughts
please. I'm old, big and fat and the less time I have to crawl around in
the Hell Hole the better
I can't remember what was said about the rudder cables for tension.
Do the cables stay in proper tension after the first flight or two - or do
you have to repeat the process???
I'm building from a kit... is all this written in the plans somewhere????.
I can't find it!!!
Need your thoughts on both cables and *why what you did* worked for you.
Phil Smith
Idaho
CH 701
(this spring - maybe)
Message 16
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| Subject: | Controlling Rotax 912 oil temp |
It was taking a long time to warm my 912 oil temps on cold days and the
temps were staying below the recommended levels. I was going to put in an
oil radiator bypass thermostat, but after purchasing the unit I realized it
required putting in a lot of extra pluming, thus increasing the chances of a
failure. Instead, I built a simple shutter to reduce airflow through the
radiator (see pics below). The oil changes temperature almost immediately
when opening or closing this shutter. There is a 20-degree difference within
a minute or so.
I have the old style engine mount and this shutter may not fit with the new
mount.
Les
OpenedView.jpg
closedView.jpg
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Controlling Rotax 912 oil temp |
Great idea Les! I have been playing around with a vane type of
arrangement but yours looks better. Thank you! Right now I've been
using Mexican chrome (duct tape) up here in cold ND, but with days
getting warmer a cockpit adjustable thing is better. Same reason why I
didn't put on the thermostat.
----- Original Message -----
From: Les Goldner
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:39 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Controlling Rotax 912 oil temp
It was taking a long time to warm my 912 oil temps on cold days and
the temps were staying below the recommended levels. I was going to put
in an oil radiator bypass thermostat, but after purchasing the unit I
realized it required putting in a lot of extra pluming, thus increasing
the chances of a failure. Instead, I built a simple shutter to reduce
airflow through the radiator (see pics below). The oil changes
temperature almost immediately when opening or closing this shutter.
There is a 20-degree difference within a minute or so.
I have the old style engine mount and this shutter may not fit with
the new mount.
Les
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Controlling Rotax 912 oil temp |
I tried both the Permacool and Thermostasis oil thermostats, with no
appreciable results from either...... Certainly not worth all the extra
hoses and hose clamps holding in hot oil..... A shutter like yours looks
like the way to go.
JG
On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Les Goldner
<lgold@quantum-associates.com>wrote:
> It was taking a long time to warm my 912 oil temps on cold days and the
> temps were staying below the recommended levels. I was going to put in an
> oil radiator bypass thermostat, but after purchasing the unit I realized it
> required putting in a lot of extra pluming, thus increasing the chances of a
> failure. Instead, I built a simple shutter to reduce airflow through the
> radiator (see pics below). The oil changes temperature almost immediately
> when opening or closing this shutter. There is a 20-degree difference within
> a minute or so.
>
> I have the old style engine mount and this shutter may not fit with the new
> mount.
>
> Les
>
>
> [image: OpenedView.jpg]
>
>
> [image: closedView.jpg]
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Official Zenith701801-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
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| Subject: | Official Zenith701801-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Zenith701801-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Zenith701801-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith701801-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
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Zenith701801-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
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You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Zenith701801-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Zenith701801-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Zenith701801-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
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[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder and evevator Cable Tension |
In practice, I fitted the bungee across to the RHS fuse and ahead of the crossover
to the top elevator cable that comes off the control horn, so this is the
lower elevator cable. Reason for this is to keep the control stick biased to
neutral using the bungee tension to counter the assymetric tension of the elevator
cables with respect to aileron position.
I have added 2 attachments
You will find out what I mean when you do it.
Ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288887#288887
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/701_elevator_rigging_859.pdf
http://forums.matronics.com//files/701_cable_bias_117.jpg
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