---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith701801-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 07/23/10: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:34 AM - Re: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle (John Bolding) 2. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle (zodierocket@hsfx.ca) 3. 08:57 AM - Re: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle (zodierocket@hsfx.ca) 4. 09:15 AM - Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle (dons701) 5. 10:21 AM - Re: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle (raymond miller) 6. 11:37 AM - Re: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle (Curt Thompson) 7. 11:51 AM - Re: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle (Curt Thompson) 8. 03:54 PM - Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle (dons701) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:03 AM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle Betcha this will stir the pot some, In my never ending quest to shave #'s from my 701 under construction I've discovered that the nose wheel fork from a Cessna 150 will slip right on the 701 nose gear tube. Of course you have to cut off the plate the Zenith fork bolts to. Pros: Complete assy , modified tube, fork, tire,wheel, axel is ALMOST 5# lighter than the plans built pieces. Cost (to me anyway) was half , got my stuff from Air Salvage of Dallas. Smaller tire means less drag and more importantly less forward mass, easier to balance a slightly heavier engine if you've refused to use a Rotax. PROBABLY less adverse yaw too but that is a WAG at this point. GOTTA be stronger than the bent up plates, if Cessna uses it on an airplane several hundred pounds heavier than the 701 it outta work for us. Cons: You lose the "cool" factor of the tundra tire in the front. Fortunately I'm old enough to have gotten over all that foolishness. I've several hundred hours of beach, dirt road, cow pasture ect operation in an RV3 with 5:00x 5 tires and for me to have one on the nose of a 701 which takes off 15-20 mph slower than the RV is a non-issue. If the plane is within CG you can taxi around with the nose wheel in the air anyway, that's assuming you practice as much as Grant Rappe did. I haven't measured EXACTLY but I don't think I'll have to remake the tube, even if I have to fab a new one a little longer, saving 5# is MONUMENTAL, especially on the front end. A no brainer for me. There may be other hick-ups I haven't found yet. LO&SLO John ----- Original Message ----- From: "dons701" Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:48 AM Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle > > I have also posted this message at the Yahoo Groups to find out if anyone > with a CH701 is using the "new" solid axle that was designed and is used > on the heavier CH750. So far, no responses. Hopefully the UPS truck will > land in my driveway Friday and I will see for myself how sturdy this new > shaft is. > > Another area of concern is the side flexing of the lower nose wheel fork > where the axle is attached. This flexing has allowed the side wall of my > tire to rub the inside of the fork if the nose wheel is not aligned with > the runway, such as when needing to use the rudder till the nose sets down > in a sudden crosswind. Admittedly, one should always maintain alignment > but everyone knows this does not always happen. My possible solution would > be to add triangular gussets to the wheel spacers that would extend upward > from the spacer tubes and could attach to the two bolts currently used to > join the aluminum forks as one. An additional bolt could be used midway, > above the axle bolt. This would, I believe, greatly stiffen the lower > fork where axial side loads are delivered. > Has anyone else experienced this ? Or has any comment on this ? > All thoughts welcome... Don > > -------- > Zenith 701 #76120 > Jabiru 2200A #2456 67 hours > Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306055#306055 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:59 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle From: zodierocket@hsfx.ca Excuse me for jumping in here then running to Oshkosh, every once in awhile this topic comes up. The Older 960 gross 701 was designed for lighter loads and used the smaller Azula wheels, just before the 1100 gross design change most people were installing 912's or heavier engines and some people had issues with hard landings. With today's 1100 gross designed STOL 701 and the Tundra tire I believe we have one of the toughest and best designed systems out there in it's weight class. The nose gear is designed to absord a tremendus amount of energy before being deformed or causing damage to the firewall. In Kitchener, we have used the STOL 701 for flight training for the past 12 years and yes students have really put the plane throgh it's pace. Over that time the plane has been dropped from the air on several occasions, on two seperate occasions it was pounded hrd enogh to actuall bend the main landing gear, (Almost a 15-20 foot full stall above the runway). We re-bent the main gear on one occasion adn replaced it on another. I have watched teh 701 get wheelbarrowed down teh runway many a time and teh nose gear holds up just fine. Rough feid landings are a pounder to any aircraft's landing gear and we tend to land more on grass strips than pavement, we hold the weight of the nose off teh ground to smooh out the ride down the strip. Teh 701 is a rough little bird and handles it's itended purpose with amzing grace, it peforms like no other plane can and we have nothing short of a grand time with it. YES it does require a different skill set to understand a > > I have also posted this message at the Yahoo Groups to find out if anyone > with a CH701 is using the "new" solid axle that was designed and is used > on the heavier CH750. So far, no responses. Hopefully the UPS truck will > land in my driveway Friday and I will see for myself how sturdy this new > shaft is. > > Another area of concern is the side flexing of the lower nose wheel > fork where the axle is attached. This flexing has allowed the side wall > of my tire to rub the inside of the fork if the nose wheel is not > aligned with the runway, such as when needing to use the rudder till > the nose sets down in a sudden crosswind. Admittedly, one should always > maintain alignment but everyone knows this does not always happen. My > possible solution would be to add triangular gussets to the wheel > spacers that would extend upward from the spacer tubes and could attach > to the two bolts currently used to join the aluminum forks as one. An > additional bolt could be used midway, above the axle bolt. This would, > I believe, greatly stiffen the lower fork where axial side loads are > delivered. > Has anyone else experienced this ? Or has any comment on this ? > All thoughts welcome... Don > > -------- > Zenith 701 #76120 > Jabiru 2200A #2456 67 hours > Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306055#306055 > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:57:44 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle From: zodierocket@hsfx.ca Sorry about the previous unfinished post, my laptop keyboard is not working well and misses many of the keystrokes, which I edit before release, The last message went by a wrong tap of the send key. Below is the finished letter that has been quickly edited. Mark Excuse me for jumping in here then running off to Oshkosh, every once in awhile this topic comes up. The Older 960 gross 701 was designed for lighter loads and used the smaller Azula wheels, just before the 1100 gross design change most people were installing 912's or heavier engines and some people had issues with hard landings, this stemmed more from asking the design to operate beyond it's limits for extended periods. With today's 1100 gross designed STOL 701 and the Tundra tires I believe we have one of the toughest and best designed systems out there in it's weight class. The nose gear is designed to absorb a tremendous amount of energy before being deformed or causing damage to the firewall, the tundra tires absorb an amazing amount of impact. In Kitchener, we have used the STOL 701 for flight training for the past 12 years and yes students have really put the plane through it's pace. Over that time the plane has been dropped from the air on several occasions, on two separate occasions it was pounded hard enough to actually bend the main landing gear, (Almost a 15-20 foot full stall above the runway). We re-bent the main gear on one occasion and replaced it on another. I have watched the 701 get wheelbarrowwed down the runway many a time and the nose gear holds up just fine, I have seen students bounce the plane so high that even Gus would b proud ( if you do not catch the jib, checkout You tube for 701 with corvair) . Rough field landings are a pounder to any aircraft's landing gear and we tend to land more on grass strips than pavement, we hold the weight of the nose off the ground to smooth out the ride down the strip. The 701 is a rough little bird and handles it's intended purpose with amazing grace, it performs like no other plane can and we have nothing short of a grand time with it. YES it does require a different skill set to understand albeit not a difficult task to achieve. I believe this subject is very similar to he VG issue, with knowledge, practice, the STOL 701 is a perfectly and well designed plane that is better then a barrel of Monkeys for fun. Also note that the bungee does have a 5 year life span ad I have seen quite a few frayed and tired bungees over the years. Now I am going to attach my bubble doors to our newest 701 and head to Oshkosh. Hope to see you there. Also check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9mCkpw9nYE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p74etfecaSk See you at Oshkosh Mark Townsend > > > Betcha this will stir the pot some, In my never ending quest to shave > #'s > from my 701 under construction I've discovered that the nose wheel fork > from > a Cessna 150 will slip right on the 701 nose gear tube. Of course you > have > to cut off the plate the Zenith fork bolts to. > > Pros: > Complete assy , modified tube, fork, tire,wheel, axel is ALMOST 5# lighter > than the plans built pieces. > Cost (to me anyway) was half , got my stuff from Air Salvage of Dallas. > Smaller tire means less drag and more importantly less forward mass, > easier > to balance a slightly heavier engine if you've refused to use a Rotax. > PROBABLY less adverse yaw too but that is a WAG at this point. > GOTTA be stronger than the bent up plates, if Cessna uses it on an > airplane > several hundred pounds heavier than the 701 it outta work for us. > > Cons: > You lose the "cool" factor of the tundra tire in the front. Fortunately > I'm > old enough to have gotten over all that foolishness. I've several hundred > hours of beach, dirt road, cow pasture ect operation in an RV3 with 5:00x > 5 > tires and for me to have one on the nose of a 701 which takes off 15-20 > mph > slower than the RV is a non-issue. If the plane is within CG you can taxi > around with the nose wheel in the air anyway, that's assuming you > practice > as much as Grant Rappe did. > > I haven't measured EXACTLY but I don't think I'll have to remake the tube, > even if I have to fab a new one a little longer, saving 5# is MONUMENTAL, > especially on the front end. A no brainer for me. > > There may be other hick-ups I haven't found yet. > > LO&SLO > > John > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "dons701" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:48 AM > Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle > > >> >> I have also posted this message at the Yahoo Groups to find out if >> anyone >> with a CH701 is using the "new" solid axle that was designed and is used >> on the heavier CH750. So far, no responses. Hopefully the UPS truck will >> land in my driveway Friday and I will see for myself how sturdy this new >> shaft is. >> >> Another area of concern is the side flexing of the lower nose wheel >> fork >> where the axle is attached. This flexing has allowed the side wall of my >> tire to rub the inside of the fork if the nose wheel is not aligned with >> the runway, such as when needing to use the rudder till the nose sets >> down >> in a sudden crosswind. Admittedly, one should always maintain alignment >> but everyone knows this does not always happen. My possible solution >> would >> be to add triangular gussets to the wheel spacers that would extend >> upward >> from the spacer tubes and could attach to the two bolts currently used >> to >> join the aluminum forks as one. An additional bolt could be used midway, >> above the axle bolt. This would, I believe, greatly stiffen the lower >> fork where axial side loads are delivered. >> Has anyone else experienced this ? Or has any comment on this ? >> All thoughts welcome... Don >> >> -------- >> Zenith 701 #76120 >> Jabiru 2200A #2456 67 hours >> Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306055#306055 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:15:02 AM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle From: "dons701" Hi John, this site needs a little pot stirring. I like your idea as I have been thinking of ways to improve the nose gear for some time. The current design works well as it has been used for a long time, but could use some help. Somewhere in the net I have seen a 701 with what looked like a pair of front forks and wheel from a dirt bike. Crazy I know but, if strong enough, this would provide an adjustable spring rate and hydraulic dampening. I have seen pictures here on this site where a small coil over shock was installed inside the top of the nose gear strut on an 801, I have not read how well it worked though but others are trying. I will admit that I am a relative amateur with flying the 701 but, I have walked on this earth long enough to know some things need improvement based on the problems encountered by me and others. The 701 is a rugged plane as is and with care can be improved. Don -------- Zenith 701 #76120 Jabiru 2200A #2456 67 hours Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306094#306094 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle From: raymond miller Good luck with the 701708 nose wheel axle. The nose gear may be "designed to absorb a tremendous amount of energy" but that will not prevent substantial damage if the front tire locks on the fork due to a bent axle read (hollow tube with nuts welded to both ends). A close inspection of this Zenith part during pre-flight can not be over emphasised. On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 11:33 AM, wrote: > > Excuse me for jumping in here then running to Oshkosh, every once in > awhile this topic comes up. The Older 960 gross 701 was designed for > lighter loads and used the smaller Azula wheels, just before the 1100 > gross design change most people were installing 912's or heavier engines > and some people had issues with hard landings. > > With today's 1100 gross designed STOL 701 and the Tundra tire I believe we > have one of the toughest and best designed systems out there in it's > weight class. The nose gear is designed to absord a tremendus amount of > energy before being deformed or causing damage to the firewall. > > In Kitchener, we have used the STOL 701 for flight training for the past > 12 years and yes students have really put the plane throgh it's pace. Over > that time the plane has been dropped from the air on several occasions, on > two seperate occasions it was pounded hrd enogh to actuall bend the main > landing gear, (Almost a 15-20 foot full stall above the runway). We > re-bent the main gear on one occasion adn replaced it on another. I have > watched teh 701 get wheelbarrowed down teh runway many a time and teh nose > gear holds up just fine. Rough feid landings are a pounder to any > aircraft's landing gear and we tend to land more on grass strips than > pavement, we hold the weight of the nose off teh ground to smooh out the > ride down the strip. > > Teh 701 is a rough little bird and handles it's itended purpose with > amzing grace, it peforms like no other plane can and we have nothing short > of a grand time with it. YES it does require a different skill set to > understand a > > > > > > I have also posted this message at the Yahoo Groups to find out if anyone > > with a CH701 is using the "new" solid axle that was designed and is used > > on the heavier CH750. So far, no responses. Hopefully the UPS truck will > > land in my driveway Friday and I will see for myself how sturdy this new > > shaft is. > > > > Another area of concern is the side flexing of the lower nose wheel > > fork where the axle is attached. This flexing has allowed the side wall > > of my tire to rub the inside of the fork if the nose wheel is not > > aligned with the runway, such as when needing to use the rudder till > > the nose sets down in a sudden crosswind. Admittedly, one should always > > maintain alignment but everyone knows this does not always happen. My > > possible solution would be to add triangular gussets to the wheel > > spacers that would extend upward from the spacer tubes and could attach > > to the two bolts currently used to join the aluminum forks as one. An > > additional bolt could be used midway, above the axle bolt. This would, > > I believe, greatly stiffen the lower fork where axial side loads are > > delivered. > > Has anyone else experienced this ? Or has any comment on this ? > > All thoughts welcome... Don > > > > -------- > > Zenith 701 #76120 > > Jabiru 2200A #2456 67 hours > > Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306055#306055 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > This message has been scanned for viruses and > > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > > believed to be clean. > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:37:51 AM PST US From: "Curt Thompson" Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle Here is a longer video of the one that Mark sent. It shows the damage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17yKXFAlqjk&feature=related Curt -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of zodierocket@hsfx.ca Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 8:56 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle Sorry about the previous unfinished post, my laptop keyboard is not working well and misses many of the keystrokes, which I edit before release, The last message went by a wrong tap of the send key. Below is the finished letter that has been quickly edited. Mark Excuse me for jumping in here then running off to Oshkosh, every once in awhile this topic comes up. The Older 960 gross 701 was designed for lighter loads and used the smaller Azula wheels, just before the 1100 gross design change most people were installing 912's or heavier engines and some people had issues with hard landings, this stemmed more from asking the design to operate beyond it's limits for extended periods. With today's 1100 gross designed STOL 701 and the Tundra tires I believe we have one of the toughest and best designed systems out there in it's weight class. The nose gear is designed to absorb a tremendous amount of energy before being deformed or causing damage to the firewall, the tundra tires absorb an amazing amount of impact. In Kitchener, we have used the STOL 701 for flight training for the past 12 years and yes students have really put the plane through it's pace. Over that time the plane has been dropped from the air on several occasions, on two separate occasions it was pounded hard enough to actually bend the main landing gear, (Almost a 15-20 foot full stall above the runway). We re-bent the main gear on one occasion and replaced it on another. I have watched the 701 get wheelbarrowwed down the runway many a time and the nose gear holds up just fine, I have seen students bounce the plane so high that even Gus would b proud ( if you do not catch the jib, checkout You tube for 701 with corvair) . Rough field landings are a pounder to any aircraft's landing gear and we tend to land more on grass strips than pavement, we hold the weight of the nose off the ground to smooth out the ride down the strip. The 701 is a rough little bird and handles it's intended purpose with amazing grace, it performs like no other plane can and we have nothing short of a grand time with it. YES it does require a different skill set to understand albeit not a difficult task to achieve. I believe this subject is very similar to he VG issue, with knowledge, practice, the STOL 701 is a perfectly and well designed plane that is better then a barrel of Monkeys for fun. Also note that the bungee does have a 5 year life span ad I have seen quite a few frayed and tired bungees over the years. Now I am going to attach my bubble doors to our newest 701 and head to Oshkosh. Hope to see you there. Also check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9mCkpw9nYE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p74etfecaSk See you at Oshkosh Mark Townsend > > > Betcha this will stir the pot some, In my never ending quest to shave > #'s > from my 701 under construction I've discovered that the nose wheel fork > from > a Cessna 150 will slip right on the 701 nose gear tube. Of course you > have > to cut off the plate the Zenith fork bolts to. > > Pros: > Complete assy , modified tube, fork, tire,wheel, axel is ALMOST 5# lighter > than the plans built pieces. > Cost (to me anyway) was half , got my stuff from Air Salvage of Dallas. > Smaller tire means less drag and more importantly less forward mass, > easier > to balance a slightly heavier engine if you've refused to use a Rotax. > PROBABLY less adverse yaw too but that is a WAG at this point. > GOTTA be stronger than the bent up plates, if Cessna uses it on an > airplane > several hundred pounds heavier than the 701 it outta work for us. > > Cons: > You lose the "cool" factor of the tundra tire in the front. Fortunately > I'm > old enough to have gotten over all that foolishness. I've several hundred > hours of beach, dirt road, cow pasture ect operation in an RV3 with 5:00x > 5 > tires and for me to have one on the nose of a 701 which takes off 15-20 > mph > slower than the RV is a non-issue. If the plane is within CG you can taxi > around with the nose wheel in the air anyway, that's assuming you > practice > as much as Grant Rappe did. > > I haven't measured EXACTLY but I don't think I'll have to remake the tube, > even if I have to fab a new one a little longer, saving 5# is MONUMENTAL, > especially on the front end. A no brainer for me. > > There may be other hick-ups I haven't found yet. > > LO&SLO > > John > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "dons701" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:48 AM > Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle > > >> >> I have also posted this message at the Yahoo Groups to find out if >> anyone >> with a CH701 is using the "new" solid axle that was designed and is used >> on the heavier CH750. So far, no responses. Hopefully the UPS truck will >> land in my driveway Friday and I will see for myself how sturdy this new >> shaft is. >> >> Another area of concern is the side flexing of the lower nose wheel >> fork >> where the axle is attached. This flexing has allowed the side wall of my >> tire to rub the inside of the fork if the nose wheel is not aligned with >> the runway, such as when needing to use the rudder till the nose sets >> down >> in a sudden crosswind. Admittedly, one should always maintain alignment >> but everyone knows this does not always happen. My possible solution >> would >> be to add triangular gussets to the wheel spacers that would extend >> upward >> from the spacer tubes and could attach to the two bolts currently used >> to >> join the aluminum forks as one. An additional bolt could be used midway, >> above the axle bolt. This would, I believe, greatly stiffen the lower >> fork where axial side loads are delivered. >> Has anyone else experienced this ? Or has any comment on this ? >> All thoughts welcome... Don >> >> -------- >> Zenith 701 #76120 >> Jabiru 2200A #2456 67 hours >> Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306055#306055 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:51:21 AM PST US From: "Curt Thompson" Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle Looks to me like the bolt holding the fork on failed. Firewall pretty bent up. Curt -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Curt Thompson Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 11:37 AM Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle Here is a longer video of the one that Mark sent. It shows the damage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17yKXFAlqjk&feature=related Curt ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:54:34 PM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Bent Nose Wheel Axle From: "dons701" Notice the curved sheet aluminum brace attached around the gear strut fire wall stiffener. Don -------- Zenith 701 #76120 Jabiru 2200A #2456 67 hours Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306121#306121 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith701801-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith701801-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith701801-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith701801-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.