Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:35 AM - Re: Airworthiness Cert Received (Geoff Heap)
2. 06:53 AM - Re: A lighter 701 (fritz)
3. 07:13 AM - Re: A lighter 701 (John Marzulli)
4. 08:31 AM - Re: A lighter 701 (John Bolding)
5. 09:51 AM - Re: A lighter 701 (Curt Thompson)
6. 10:43 AM - Re: A lighter 701 (John Bolding)
7. 12:03 PM - Re: A lighter 701 (Curt Thompson)
8. 12:50 PM - Lighter-than-air 701 (Zed Smith)
9. 01:38 PM - Re: Lighter-than-air 701 (John Bolding)
10. 05:00 PM - Re: Lighter-than-air 701 (Benjamin Q)
11. 06:11 PM - Re: A lighter 701 (Benjamin Q)
12. 08:25 PM - Re: A lighter 701 (MacDonald Doug)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Airworthiness Cert Received |
Congratulations Brian. I'm excited for you. What an adventure awaits you. I don't
know if anybody has said this before, thanks for the best 701 photo guide I've
seen. Get those 40 hours in. I'll be up there for a ride in the spring.......Geoff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312502#312502
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: A lighter 701 |
my opinion only----- don't waste to much time reinventing the wheel.
get your airplane in the air asap and after you are enjoying the GREAT 701
make your mod(s) afterwards------------ after flying this thing, the things
you
mention below will not seem so important.
Fritz do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Benjamin Q" <ben.queener@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 1:55 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701
> <ben.queener@gmail.com>
>
> My work on my 701 was unexpected stalled by a surprise deployment to
> Afghanistan. I am an engineer, so I have spent quiet a bit of free time
> thinking about the 701.
> Two things really impress me about the 701...it's lightweight and it's
> modular design. As lightweight as it is, it seems like there are areas
> where you could take advatage of its modular construction and use carbon
> fiber to save a few pounds. Some of the steel pieces like the rudder
> pedals could be replaced. If you accounted for the COG shift you might be
> able to fabricate all the tail section pieces and flaperons out of carbon
> fiber. And if you did some honest-to-goodness engineering, you could
> switch out the landing gear and make some aerodynamic struts.
> When I get home I might weight the parts and pieces and do some back of
> the envelope calculations and see what kind of weight savings a person
> could expect.
> Has anyone else looked into this? I've already finished all the major
> modules of the kit, but it seems like it would be an interesting way to
> continue to the build/experimentation phase after the airplane is done.
> I would be interested to hear your thoughts.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312491#312491
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: A lighter 701 |
Mark Townsend / Can-Zac were offering streamlined, one piece struts make out
of aluminum.
John Marzulli
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 6:51 AM, fritz <klondike@megalink.net> wrote:
>
> my opinion only----- don't waste to much time reinventing the wheel.
> get your airplane in the air asap and after you are enjoying the GREAT 701
> make your mod(s) afterwards------------ after flying this thing, the
> things you
> mention below will not seem so important.
>
> Fritz do not archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Q" <ben.queener@gmail.com>
> To: <zenith701801-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 1:55 AM
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701
>
>
>> ben.queener@gmail.com>
>>
>> My work on my 701 was unexpected stalled by a surprise deployment to
>> Afghanistan. I am an engineer, so I have spent quiet a bit of free time
>> thinking about the 701.
>> Two things really impress me about the 701...it's lightweight and it's
>> modular design. As lightweight as it is, it seems like there are areas
>> where you could take advatage of its modular construction and use carbon
>> fiber to save a few pounds. Some of the steel pieces like the rudder pedals
>> could be replaced. If you accounted for the COG shift you might be able to
>> fabricate all the tail section pieces and flaperons out of carbon fiber.
>> And if you did some honest-to-goodness engineering, you could switch out
>> the landing gear and make some aerodynamic struts.
>> When I get home I might weight the parts and pieces and do some back of
>> the envelope calculations and see what kind of weight savings a person could
>> expect.
>> Has anyone else looked into this? I've already finished all the major
>> modules of the kit, but it seems like it would be an interesting way to
>> continue to the build/experimentation phase after the airplane is done.
>> I would be interested to hear your thoughts.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312491#312491
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: A lighter 701 |
They are nice but heavier than the thin (.035) 4130 tube with .016
covers. figured it up a long time ago and I think I remember 4-5# but
I'd have to do it again to be sure.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: John Marzulli
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701
Mark Townsend / Can-Zac were offering streamlined, one piece struts
make out of aluminum.
John Marzulli
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 6:51 AM, fritz <klondike@megalink.net> wrote:
<klondike@megalink.net>
my opinion only----- don't waste to much time reinventing the
wheel.
get your airplane in the air asap and after you are enjoying the
GREAT 701
make your mod(s) afterwards------------ after flying this thing,
the things you
mention below will not seem so important.
Fritz do not archive
----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Q"
<ben.queener@gmail.com>
To: <zenith701801-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 1:55 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701
<ben.queener@gmail.com>
My work on my 701 was unexpected stalled by a surprise deployment
to Afghanistan. I am an engineer, so I have spent quiet a bit of free
time thinking about the 701.
Two things really impress me about the 701...it's lightweight and
it's modular design. As lightweight as it is, it seems like there are
areas where you could take advatage of its modular construction and use
carbon fiber to save a few pounds. Some of the steel pieces like the
rudder pedals could be replaced. If you accounted for the COG shift you
might be able to fabricate all the tail section pieces and flaperons out
of carbon fiber. And if you did some honest-to-goodness engineering,
you could switch out the landing gear and make some aerodynamic struts.
When I get home I might weight the parts and pieces and do some
back of the envelope calculations and see what kind of weight savings a
person could expect.
Has anyone else looked into this? I've already finished all the
major modules of the kit, but it seems like it would be an interesting
way to continue to the build/experimentation phase after the airplane is
done.
I would be interested to hear your thoughts.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312491#312491
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Message 5
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I made a fiberglass mold and built a carbon fiber fairing for my horizontal
stab (picture attached). I'm having second thoughts now because I have been
looking into the issue with galvanic corrosion between carbon fiber and
aluminum. It looks like I would have to electrically insulate the part from
the aluminum. I'm not sure how I'm going to do that. I might just make
another part out of fiberglass.
Curt
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Benjamin
Q
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 10:55 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701
<ben.queener@gmail.com>
My work on my 701 was unexpected stalled by a surprise deployment to
Afghanistan. I am an engineer, so I have spent quiet a bit of free time
thinking about the 701.
Two things really impress me about the 701...it's lightweight and it's
modular design. As lightweight as it is, it seems like there are areas
where you could take advatage of its modular construction and use carbon
fiber to save a few pounds. Some of the steel pieces like the rudder pedals
could be replaced. If you accounted for the COG shift you might be able to
fabricate all the tail section pieces and flaperons out of carbon fiber.
And if you did some honest-to-goodness engineering, you could switch out the
landing gear and make some aerodynamic struts.
When I get home I might weight the parts and pieces and do some back of
the envelope calculations and see what kind of weight savings a person could
expect.
Has anyone else looked into this? I've already finished all the major
modules of the kit, but it seems like it would be an interesting way to
continue to the build/experimentation phase after the airplane is done.
I would be interested to hear your thoughts.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312491#312491
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: A lighter 701 |
Something as simple as a layer of electrical tape would most likely suffice,
you only have the problem when moisture is present (all the time around my
house)
The resin also encapsulates the carbon fibers and isolates them from the
aluminum.Maybe a thin strip of veil mat around the perimeter where it
touches . Have used this method in Houston several times with success,
YNMV.
LO&SLO John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curt Thompson" <charlievictor102@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701
>I made a fiberglass mold and built a carbon fiber fairing for my horizontal
> stab (picture attached). I'm having second thoughts now because I have
> been
> looking into the issue with galvanic corrosion between carbon fiber and
> aluminum. It looks like I would have to electrically insulate the part
> from
> the aluminum. I'm not sure how I'm going to do that. I might just make
> another part out of fiberglass.
>
> Curt
>
Message 7
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John,
I was more concerned about attaching it with rivets. I doubt if I can
insulate around them. I thought about using nylon machine screws but I
would have to put in a bunch of anchor nuts.
BTW, that picture is of the first part I made. The second part looks a lot
better, without surface voids, and better penetration. It really helps to
have a second set of hands while trying to lay this stuff up.
Curt
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Bolding
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701
<jnbolding1@teleshare.net>
Something as simple as a layer of electrical tape would most likely suffice,
you only have the problem when moisture is present (all the time around my
house)
The resin also encapsulates the carbon fibers and isolates them from the
aluminum.Maybe a thin strip of veil mat around the perimeter where it
touches . Have used this method in Houston several times with success,
YNMV.
LO&SLO John
Message 8
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| Subject: | Lighter-than-air 701 |
do not archive
Just seal the seams and fill it with helium......there's LOTS of rear fuselage
volume!
And the wings, too.
Zed
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Lighter-than-air 701 |
One thing we can ALWAYS count on from Zed is solid, practical, down to earth
info we can really use in building our planes. Everybody else is arguing
over colors of scotchbrite and Zed is dreaming up methods that require us to
tie down our aircraft or they'll float away, nice post Zed. Thumbs Up!! ;)
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zed Smith" <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 2:46 PM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Lighter-than-air 701
> <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
>
> do not archive
>
> Just seal the seams and fill it with helium......there's LOTS of rear
> fuselage volume!
>
> And the wings, too.
>
> Zed
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Lighter-than-air 701 |
The funny thing is that I was thinking about the same thing. I did the calculations
and found that even if you filled the entire plane with helium, the buoyant
force is around 10 pounds. Realistically, you would add more gross weight
just sealing up the airplane. I knew it was an idea doomed to fail, but it was
fun thinking about it.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312564#312564
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: A lighter 701 |
Fritz, I do intend to finish the airplane first. I feel like I making great time.
I finished most the airplane in less then 6 months. I still have to finish
the controls, and put all the major modules together and finish the whole FWF.
Once that it is all done, this would be an interesting area to tinker.
John, I looked into those, and I wasn't real happy with the weight penalty. I think
I would just make some light aluminum fairings for the current struts before
if I were going to stick to metal. The main point of the carbon fiber struts
would be the weight savings, but after you made the rounded core, you could
make a light aerodynamic skin.
Curt, I have been looking into the galvanic corrosion issue. I was talking to
one of the other engineers I work with who has worked with carbon fiber before.
Specifically, we build a carbonfiber boat hull that had some aluminum pieces,
like the rudder. The boat was tested in the ocean (salt water) for a few years.
They took some simple precautions in during the design and fabrication
phase and took special notice of any corrosive effects. After a few years of
testing they didn't see any irregular or accelerated corrosion patterns.
I like the idea of performance through efficiency rather then performance through
raw power. I don't intend on painting the airplane, and I plan on using the
Jabiru 2200 engine setup. The lighter the plane gets, there is a bigger the
proportional impact made from any weight changes. It seems that lightening the
airplane might have a realistic benefit.
By the way, what kind of weights are you all seeing with your individual setups?
The website says 580 lbs, but I assume that is with a 912S and minimal instruments.
I think I read somewhere that the paint alone can weight 30 lbs.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312571#312571
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: A lighter 701 |
I'm almost embarrassed to say my 701 weighs 667 empty. That is with a bed style
mounted 912UL, slats and full paint.
Some areas where I let the weight get away from me are as follows:
020 wing skins on top bottom and leading edge
leather covered temperfoam seat cushions. I weighed one seat bottom and it was
over 5 lbs.
The interior of all aluminum surfaces were primed. This is required in Canada.
Electric flapperons, the actuator is heavier than the manual control.
Fairly complex electrical system. including a transponder and comm radio, full
lights etc.
Let that be a warning to those of you still building, little additional weights
add up to big ones.
Do Not Achive
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch builder
NW Ontario, Canada
--- On Wed, 9/15/10, Benjamin Q <ben.queener@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: Benjamin Q <ben.queener@gmail.com>
> Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: A lighter 701
> To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
> Received: Wednesday, September 15, 2010, 8:09 PM
> --> Zenith701801-List message
> posted by: "Benjamin Q" <ben.queener@gmail.com>
> By the way, what kind of weights are you all seeing with
> your individual setups? The website says 580 lbs, but
> I assume that is with a 912S and minimal instruments.
> I think I read somewhere that the paint alone can weight 30
> lbs.
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