---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith701801-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/15/10: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:35 AM - Re: Airworthiness Cert Received (Geoff Heap) 2. 06:53 AM - Re: A lighter 701 (fritz) 3. 07:13 AM - Re: A lighter 701 (John Marzulli) 4. 08:31 AM - Re: A lighter 701 (John Bolding) 5. 09:51 AM - Re: A lighter 701 (Curt Thompson) 6. 10:43 AM - Re: A lighter 701 (John Bolding) 7. 12:03 PM - Re: A lighter 701 (Curt Thompson) 8. 12:50 PM - Lighter-than-air 701 (Zed Smith) 9. 01:38 PM - Re: Lighter-than-air 701 (John Bolding) 10. 05:00 PM - Re: Lighter-than-air 701 (Benjamin Q) 11. 06:11 PM - Re: A lighter 701 (Benjamin Q) 12. 08:25 PM - Re: A lighter 701 (MacDonald Doug) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:43 AM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Airworthiness Cert Received From: "Geoff Heap" Congratulations Brian. I'm excited for you. What an adventure awaits you. I don't know if anybody has said this before, thanks for the best 701 photo guide I've seen. Get those 40 hours in. I'll be up there for a ride in the spring.......Geoff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312502#312502 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:47 AM PST US From: "fritz" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701 my opinion only----- don't waste to much time reinventing the wheel. get your airplane in the air asap and after you are enjoying the GREAT 701 make your mod(s) afterwards------------ after flying this thing, the things you mention below will not seem so important. Fritz do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Q" Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 1:55 AM Subject: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701 > > > My work on my 701 was unexpected stalled by a surprise deployment to > Afghanistan. I am an engineer, so I have spent quiet a bit of free time > thinking about the 701. > Two things really impress me about the 701...it's lightweight and it's > modular design. As lightweight as it is, it seems like there are areas > where you could take advatage of its modular construction and use carbon > fiber to save a few pounds. Some of the steel pieces like the rudder > pedals could be replaced. If you accounted for the COG shift you might be > able to fabricate all the tail section pieces and flaperons out of carbon > fiber. And if you did some honest-to-goodness engineering, you could > switch out the landing gear and make some aerodynamic struts. > When I get home I might weight the parts and pieces and do some back of > the envelope calculations and see what kind of weight savings a person > could expect. > Has anyone else looked into this? I've already finished all the major > modules of the kit, but it seems like it would be an interesting way to > continue to the build/experimentation phase after the airplane is done. > I would be interested to hear your thoughts. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312491#312491 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:59 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701 From: John Marzulli Mark Townsend / Can-Zac were offering streamlined, one piece struts make out of aluminum. John Marzulli http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/ http://MarzulliPhoto.net/ http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 6:51 AM, fritz wrote: > > my opinion only----- don't waste to much time reinventing the wheel. > get your airplane in the air asap and after you are enjoying the GREAT 701 > make your mod(s) afterwards------------ after flying this thing, the > things you > mention below will not seem so important. > > Fritz do not archive > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Q" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 1:55 AM > Subject: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701 > > >> ben.queener@gmail.com> >> >> My work on my 701 was unexpected stalled by a surprise deployment to >> Afghanistan. I am an engineer, so I have spent quiet a bit of free time >> thinking about the 701. >> Two things really impress me about the 701...it's lightweight and it's >> modular design. As lightweight as it is, it seems like there are areas >> where you could take advatage of its modular construction and use carbon >> fiber to save a few pounds. Some of the steel pieces like the rudder pedals >> could be replaced. If you accounted for the COG shift you might be able to >> fabricate all the tail section pieces and flaperons out of carbon fiber. >> And if you did some honest-to-goodness engineering, you could switch out >> the landing gear and make some aerodynamic struts. >> When I get home I might weight the parts and pieces and do some back of >> the envelope calculations and see what kind of weight savings a person could >> expect. >> Has anyone else looked into this? I've already finished all the major >> modules of the kit, but it seems like it would be an interesting way to >> continue to the build/experimentation phase after the airplane is done. >> I would be interested to hear your thoughts. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312491#312491 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:38 AM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701 They are nice but heavier than the thin (.035) 4130 tube with .016 covers. figured it up a long time ago and I think I remember 4-5# but I'd have to do it again to be sure. John ----- Original Message ----- From: John Marzulli To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 9:11 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701 Mark Townsend / Can-Zac were offering streamlined, one piece struts make out of aluminum. John Marzulli http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/ http://MarzulliPhoto.net/ http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 6:51 AM, fritz wrote: my opinion only----- don't waste to much time reinventing the wheel. get your airplane in the air asap and after you are enjoying the GREAT 701 make your mod(s) afterwards------------ after flying this thing, the things you mention below will not seem so important. Fritz do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Q" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 1:55 AM Subject: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701 My work on my 701 was unexpected stalled by a surprise deployment to Afghanistan. I am an engineer, so I have spent quiet a bit of free time thinking about the 701. Two things really impress me about the 701...it's lightweight and it's modular design. As lightweight as it is, it seems like there are areas where you could take advatage of its modular construction and use carbon fiber to save a few pounds. Some of the steel pieces like the rudder pedals could be replaced. If you accounted for the COG shift you might be able to fabricate all the tail section pieces and flaperons out of carbon fiber. And if you did some honest-to-goodness engineering, you could switch out the landing gear and make some aerodynamic struts. When I get home I might weight the parts and pieces and do some back of the envelope calculations and see what kind of weight savings a person could expect. Has anyone else looked into this? I've already finished all the major modules of the kit, but it seems like it would be an interesting way to continue to the build/experimentation phase after the airplane is done. I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312491#312491 ========== -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:51:52 AM PST US From: "Curt Thompson" Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701 I made a fiberglass mold and built a carbon fiber fairing for my horizontal stab (picture attached). I'm having second thoughts now because I have been looking into the issue with galvanic corrosion between carbon fiber and aluminum. It looks like I would have to electrically insulate the part from the aluminum. I'm not sure how I'm going to do that. I might just make another part out of fiberglass. Curt -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Benjamin Q Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 10:55 PM Subject: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701 My work on my 701 was unexpected stalled by a surprise deployment to Afghanistan. I am an engineer, so I have spent quiet a bit of free time thinking about the 701. Two things really impress me about the 701...it's lightweight and it's modular design. As lightweight as it is, it seems like there are areas where you could take advatage of its modular construction and use carbon fiber to save a few pounds. Some of the steel pieces like the rudder pedals could be replaced. If you accounted for the COG shift you might be able to fabricate all the tail section pieces and flaperons out of carbon fiber. And if you did some honest-to-goodness engineering, you could switch out the landing gear and make some aerodynamic struts. When I get home I might weight the parts and pieces and do some back of the envelope calculations and see what kind of weight savings a person could expect. Has anyone else looked into this? I've already finished all the major modules of the kit, but it seems like it would be an interesting way to continue to the build/experimentation phase after the airplane is done. I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312491#312491 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:43:42 AM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701 Something as simple as a layer of electrical tape would most likely suffice, you only have the problem when moisture is present (all the time around my house) The resin also encapsulates the carbon fibers and isolates them from the aluminum.Maybe a thin strip of veil mat around the perimeter where it touches . Have used this method in Houston several times with success, YNMV. LO&SLO John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt Thompson" Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 11:49 AM Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701 >I made a fiberglass mold and built a carbon fiber fairing for my horizontal > stab (picture attached). I'm having second thoughts now because I have > been > looking into the issue with galvanic corrosion between carbon fiber and > aluminum. It looks like I would have to electrically insulate the part > from > the aluminum. I'm not sure how I'm going to do that. I might just make > another part out of fiberglass. > > Curt > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:03:41 PM PST US From: "Curt Thompson" Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701 John, I was more concerned about attaching it with rivets. I doubt if I can insulate around them. I thought about using nylon machine screws but I would have to put in a bunch of anchor nuts. BTW, that picture is of the first part I made. The second part looks a lot better, without surface voids, and better penetration. It really helps to have a second set of hands while trying to lay this stuff up. Curt -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Bolding Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:41 AM Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: A lighter 701 Something as simple as a layer of electrical tape would most likely suffice, you only have the problem when moisture is present (all the time around my house) The resin also encapsulates the carbon fibers and isolates them from the aluminum.Maybe a thin strip of veil mat around the perimeter where it touches . Have used this method in Houston several times with success, YNMV. LO&SLO John ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:50:03 PM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith701801-List: Lighter-than-air 701 do not archive Just seal the seams and fill it with helium......there's LOTS of rear fuselage volume! And the wings, too. Zed ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:38:28 PM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Lighter-than-air 701 One thing we can ALWAYS count on from Zed is solid, practical, down to earth info we can really use in building our planes. Everybody else is arguing over colors of scotchbrite and Zed is dreaming up methods that require us to tie down our aircraft or they'll float away, nice post Zed. Thumbs Up!! ;) JB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zed Smith" Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 2:46 PM Subject: Zenith701801-List: Lighter-than-air 701 > > > do not archive > > Just seal the seams and fill it with helium......there's LOTS of rear > fuselage volume! > > And the wings, too. > > Zed > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:59 PM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Lighter-than-air 701 From: "Benjamin Q" The funny thing is that I was thinking about the same thing. I did the calculations and found that even if you filled the entire plane with helium, the buoyant force is around 10 pounds. Realistically, you would add more gross weight just sealing up the airplane. I knew it was an idea doomed to fail, but it was fun thinking about it. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312564#312564 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:56 PM PST US Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: A lighter 701 From: "Benjamin Q" Fritz, I do intend to finish the airplane first. I feel like I making great time. I finished most the airplane in less then 6 months. I still have to finish the controls, and put all the major modules together and finish the whole FWF. Once that it is all done, this would be an interesting area to tinker. John, I looked into those, and I wasn't real happy with the weight penalty. I think I would just make some light aluminum fairings for the current struts before if I were going to stick to metal. The main point of the carbon fiber struts would be the weight savings, but after you made the rounded core, you could make a light aerodynamic skin. Curt, I have been looking into the galvanic corrosion issue. I was talking to one of the other engineers I work with who has worked with carbon fiber before. Specifically, we build a carbonfiber boat hull that had some aluminum pieces, like the rudder. The boat was tested in the ocean (salt water) for a few years. They took some simple precautions in during the design and fabrication phase and took special notice of any corrosive effects. After a few years of testing they didn't see any irregular or accelerated corrosion patterns. I like the idea of performance through efficiency rather then performance through raw power. I don't intend on painting the airplane, and I plan on using the Jabiru 2200 engine setup. The lighter the plane gets, there is a bigger the proportional impact made from any weight changes. It seems that lightening the airplane might have a realistic benefit. By the way, what kind of weights are you all seeing with your individual setups? The website says 580 lbs, but I assume that is with a 912S and minimal instruments. I think I read somewhere that the paint alone can weight 30 lbs. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312571#312571 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:21 PM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: A lighter 701 I'm almost embarrassed to say my 701 weighs 667 empty. That is with a bed style mounted 912UL, slats and full paint. Some areas where I let the weight get away from me are as follows: 020 wing skins on top bottom and leading edge leather covered temperfoam seat cushions. I weighed one seat bottom and it was over 5 lbs. The interior of all aluminum surfaces were primed. This is required in Canada. Electric flapperons, the actuator is heavier than the manual control. Fairly complex electrical system. including a transponder and comm radio, full lights etc. Let that be a warning to those of you still building, little additional weights add up to big ones. Do Not Achive Doug MacDonald CH-701 Scratch builder NW Ontario, Canada --- On Wed, 9/15/10, Benjamin Q wrote: > From: Benjamin Q > Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: A lighter 701 > To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com > Received: Wednesday, September 15, 2010, 8:09 PM > --> Zenith701801-List message > posted by: "Benjamin Q" > By the way, what kind of weights are you all seeing with > your individual setups? The website says 580 lbs, but > I assume that is with a 912S and minimal instruments. > I think I read somewhere that the paint alone can weight 30 > lbs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith701801-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith701801-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith701801-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith701801-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.