Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:46 AM - Re: Slats (kmccune)
2. 06:07 AM - Re: Re: Slats (Stripling Cliff & Carolyn)
3. 07:13 AM - Re: Slats (kmccune)
4. 10:18 AM - Re: Re: Slats (robert.eli@comcast.net)
5. 12:40 PM - Re: Slats (kmccune)
6. 12:55 PM - Re: Re: Slats (jhb478)
7. 12:59 PM - Re: Re: Slats (jhb478)
8. 01:07 PM - Cowl tank, wing tanks, fuel level senders and venting. (kmccune)
9. 01:14 PM - Re: Slats (kmccune)
10. 02:37 PM - Re: Re: Slats (JohnDRead@aol.com)
Message 1
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Hi John,
Is the following statement about a 701 with a 912 or a 582? Because I just bought
a cowl tank :?
"More recent experience of an aircraft with an already hose heavy tendency (early
model 701 with fuel tank in the cowl and battery mounted on the firewall) noticed
an increased hose heavy feeling with the slats removed. "
--------
Always do what you are afraid to do.
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)
"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009
"Life is a good deal...it's worth it"
Dorothy McCune
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404592#404592
Message 2
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John,
I touched on this question with Caleb (sp? at Zenith) about where to place a fuselage
header tank (in addition to the smaller 6 gal wing tanks) in a 701 with
a 582 engine. The question was behind the seat or in front of the panel. He
stated the airplane would tend to have an aft CG "anyway" so definitely not behind
the seat. Obviously, the 582 (with B gearbox and wooden prop - battery
can be moved to various places to alter W/B) weighs less than the 912 so that
is the logical conclusion. I have yet to weigh/balance my 701, but I can already
tell that will be the case. How slats on or off affect center of lift. ???
Cliff
On Jul 13, 2013, at 7:45 AM, kmccune wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
> Is the following statement about a 701 with a 912 or a 582? Because I just bought
a cowl tank :?
>
> "More recent experience of an aircraft with an already hose heavy tendency (early
model 701 with fuel tank in the cowl and battery mounted on the firewall)
noticed an increased hose heavy feeling with the slats removed. "
>
> --------
> Always do what you are afraid to do.
> R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)
>
> "Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009
>
> "Life is a good deal...it's worth it"
> Dorothy McCune
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404592#404592
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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Actually it does not, the slat may be cut out of the front of the original airfoil,
but it is extended and I believe rotated slightly to create the slot. If
you tape it up, you will have an extended nose shaped differently the the original
airfoil.
Kevin
[quote="JohnDRead(at)aol.com"]Filling in the slot with tape just makes the airfoil
back to the basic airfoil that has about a 1.3 coefficient of lift. It's
the slats that make the difference. I am at a loss to understand why any of the
"Slat Removal Group" bothered to build the 701 in the first place. Didn't
you know it had slats and what they do?? Slats double the lift of a given airfoil
VGs do not they only make a poor performing airfoil work better. Taking
the slats off of the 701 wing make a completely different airfoil so you have
become test pilots not experimental pilots. The waiver that you signed with
Zenith when you undertook the 701 construction could really bite you in the butt
in the event of a incident! Have fun. All intelligent replies will be answered.
Please read Abbott and Von Doenhoff chapter on slotted airfoils before
you start typing. Happy flying.
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
> [b]
--------
Always do what you are afraid to do.
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)
"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009
"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404595#404595
Message 4
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All the slats do is to permit the angle of attack to increase beyond the po
int where stall would normally occur.. The coefficient of lift increases wi
th increasing angle of attack up to the stall point, and it is the same wit
h, or without, slats.. .. The slats permit the increase to continue beyond
what would be possible without slats=C2- by delaying the stall to a highe
r angle of attack.. The slats do not increase the lift coefficient in level
flight...=C2- And they do not improve the lift coefficient at moderate a
ngles of attack.. =C2-The slats allow a greater=C2-increase in angle of
attack as compared to VG's.. but the effect is the same, which is to delay
the stall point to a greater angle of attack .. They both delay the stall
point to greater angles of attack than would otherwise be possible.. There
is a good plot in this behavior in the zenith document below, =C2-with re
gard to the Zenith slats:=C2- PS: The biggest difference between the two
is that the VG's have less drag as compared to the slats up to the stall po
int.
http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/design/design.html
Robert Eli
CH701
----- Original Message -----
From: "kmccune" <kmccune@somtel.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2013 10:12:46 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Slats
Actually it does not, the slat may be cut out of the front of the original
airfoil, but it is extended and I believe rotated slightly to create the sl
ot. If you tape it up, you will have an extended nose shaped differently th
e the original airfoil.
Kevin
[quote="JohnDRead(at)aol.com"]Filling in the slot with tape just makes th
e airfoil back to the basic =C2-airfoil that has about a 1.3 coefficient
of lift. It's the slats that make the =C2-difference. I am at a loss to u
nderstand why any of the "Slat Removal Group" =C2-bothered to build the 7
01 in the first place. Didn't you know it had slats and =C2-what they do?
? Slats double the lift of a given airfoil VGs do not they only =C2-make
a poor performing airfoil work better. Taking the slats off of the 701 wing
=C2-make a completely different airfoil so you have become test pilots n
ot =C2-experimental pilots. The waiver that you signed with Zenith when y
ou undertook =C2-the 701 construction could really bite you in the butt i
n the event of a =C2-incident! Have fun. All intelligent replies will be
answered. Please read Abbott =C2-and Von Doenhoff chapter on slotted airf
oils before you start typing. Happy =C2-flying.
=C2-=C2-
=C2-Regards, =C2-John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: =C2-303-648-3261 =C2-
=C2-=C2-
=C2-
> [b]
--------
=C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93Always do what you are afraid to do.=C3=A2=82=AC=EF
=BD
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)
"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW -
2009
"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy =C2-McCune
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404595#404595
===========
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===========
MS -
===========
e -
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2--Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
Message 5
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Thanks Cliff,
That was my original thought as well.
Kevin
--------
Always do what you are afraid to do.
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)
"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009
"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404612#404612
Message 6
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Hi Kevin,=0A=C2-=0AI could tell no difference slats on or off,=C2- JG h
as stated a long time ago that the trim setting didn't change when he remov
ed the slats and added VG's, that tells me all I need to know about center
of lift using the bastard airfoil sans slats.=0A=C2-=0AJB=0A =0A=0A______
__________________________=0A From: kmccune <kmccune@somtel.net>=0ATo: zeni
th701801-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, July 13, 2013 7:45 AM=0ASubj
ect: Zenith701801-List: Re: Slats=0A =0A=0A--> Zenith701801-List message p
osted by: "kmccune" <kmccune@somtel.net>=0A=0AHi John,=0A=0AIs the followin
g statement about a 701 with a 912 or a 582? Because I just bought a cowl t
ank :? =0A=0A"More recent experience of an aircraft with an already hose he
avy tendency (early model 701 with fuel tank in the cowl and battery mounte
d on the firewall) noticed an increased hose heavy feeling with the slats r
emoved. "=0A=0A--------=0A=C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93Always do what you are afrai
d to do.=C3=A2=82=AC=0AR.W. Emerson (1803-1882)=0A=0A"Real freedom
is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009=0A=0A"Lif
e is a good deal...it's worth it"=0ADorothy=C2- McCune=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-
====================
Message 7
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John, Have you flown a 701 with and without slats??=C2- Done any testing
using real numbers??=0ASeveral on this list have done that and all reach th
e same conclusion.=0AI DID study up on slats/slots .=0AJB=0A =0A=0A________
________________________=0A From: kmccune <kmccune@somtel.net>=0ATo: zenith
701801-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, July 13, 2013 9:12 AM=0ASubjec
t: Zenith701801-List: Re: Slats=0A =0A=0A--> Zenith701801-List message pos
ted by: "kmccune" <kmccune@somtel.net>=0A=0AActually it does not, the slat
may be cut out of the front of the original airfoil, but it is extended and
I believe rotated slightly to create the slot. If you tape it up, you will
have an extended nose shaped differently the the original airfoil.=0A=0AKe
vin=0A=0A=0A[quote="JohnDRead(at)aol.com"]Filling in the slot with tape j
ust makes the airfoil back to the basic=C2- airfoil that has about a 1.3
coefficient of lift. It's the slats that make the=C2- difference. I am at
a loss to understand why any of the "Slat Removal Group"=C2- bothered to
build the 701 in the first place. Didn't you know it had slats and=C2- w
hat they do?? Slats double the lift of a given airfoil VGs do not they only
=C2- make a poor performing airfoil work better. Taking the slats off of
the 701 wing=C2- make a completely different airfoil so you have become t
est pilots not=C2- experimental pilots. The waiver that you signed with Z
enith when you undertook=C2- the 701 construction could really bite you i
n the butt in the event of a=C2- incident! Have fun. All intelligent repl
ies will be answered. Please read Abbott=C2- and Von Doenhoff chapter on
slotted airfoils before you start typing. Happy=C2- flying.=0A=C2- =0AR
egards,=C2- John=0A=0ACH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300=0A=0ACell: 719-494-4
567=0AHome:=C2- 303-648-3261=C2- =0A=C2- =0A=0A=0A> [b]=0A=0A=0A-----
---=0A=C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93Always do what you are afraid to do.=C3=A2=82
=AC=0AR.W. Emerson (1803-1882)=0A=0A"Real freedom is the sustained act
of being an individual." WW - 2009=0A=0A"Life is a good deal...i
t's worth it" Feb 1969=0ADorothy=C2- McCune=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this
topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=40459
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- - The Zenith701801-List Email Forum -=0A
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- - List Contribution Web Site -
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2
===================
Message 8
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| Subject: | Cowl tank, wing tanks, fuel level senders and venting. |
I have 2- 7gal wing tanks and an 11 gal cowl tank.
I would like to use a simple open/closed valves from each wing tank and only use
the wing tanks as gas cans and open them to refill the cowl tank on longer flights.
I understand that there is some chance of forgetting and overflowing the
cowl tank, but if you don't open the wing tanks until the cowl tank is at 3-4
gallons, then this can not happen.
I also do not want a level sender in the wing tanks, just the sight tube in the
cowl tank. As the wing tanks would be a special long flight item they would be
filled up before those flights.
I would also like to do is use just a vented cap on the cowl tank . The wing tanks
are vented by a tube protruding through the bottom of each tank to almost
the top on the inside as built.
So first off would this pass DAR inspection and your thoughts on the idea. I really
like the simplicity and ease of the cowl tank for local flights and they
will be the bulk of the flights.
Kevin
--------
Always do what you are afraid to do.
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)
"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009
"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404617#404617
Message 9
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Hi John,
My question was about the cowl tank and w/b, I just bought one.
Thanks though.
Kevin
[quote="jhb478(at)yahoo.com"]Hi Kevin,
I could tell no difference slats on or off, JG has stated a long time ago that
the trim setting didn't change when he removed the slats and added VG's, that
tells me all I need to know about center of lift using the bastard airfoil sans
slats.
JB
From: kmccune
To: zenith701801-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2013 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: Slats
Hi John,
Is the following statement about a 701 with a 912 or a 582? Because I just bought
a cowl tank :?
"More recent experience of an aircraft with an already hose heavy tendency (early
model 701 with fuel tank in the cowl and battery mounted on the firewall) noticed
an increased hose heavy feeling with the slats removed. "
--------
Always do what you are afraid to do.
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)
"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009
"Life is a good deal...it's worth it"
Dorothy McCune
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtoptp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404592#404592)a href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.mat &nbs//www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.co=================
> [b]
--------
Always do what you are afraid to do.
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)
"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009
"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404618#404618
Message 10
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Thank you Robert for a thoughtful and accurate reply.
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 7/13/2013 3:07:05 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
robert.eli@comcast.net writes:
All the slats do is to permit the angle of attack to increase beyond the
point where stall would normally occur.. The coefficient of lift increases
with increasing angle of attack up to the stall point, and it is the same
with, or without, slats.... The slats permit the increase to continue beyon
d
what would be possible without slats by delaying the stall to a higher
angle of attack.. The slats do not increase the lift coefficient in level
flight... And they do not improve the lift coefficient at moderate angles
of
attack.. The slats allow a greater increase in angle of attack as compared
to
VG's.. but the effect is the same, which is to delay the stall point to a
greater angle of attack.. They both delay the stall point to greater angle
s
of attack than would otherwise be possible.. There is a good plot in this
behavior in the zenith document below, with regard to the Zenith slats:
PS: The biggest difference between the two is that the VG's have less drag
as
compared to the slats up to the stall point.
http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/design/design.html
Robert Eli
CH701
____________________________________
From: "kmccune" <kmccune@somtel.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2013 10:12:46 AM
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Re: Slats
--> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "kmccune" <kmccune@somtel.net>
Actually it does not, the slat may be cut out of the front of the original
airfoil, but it is extended and I believe rotated slightly to create the
slot. If you tape it up, you will have an extended nose shaped differently
the the original airfoil.
Kevin
[quote="JohnDRead(at)aol.com"]Filling in the slot with tape just makes t
he
airfoil back to the basic airfoil that has about a 1.3 coefficient of
lift. It's the slats that make the difference. I am at a loss to understan
d
why any of the "Slat Removal Group" bothered to build the 701 in the firs
t
place. Didn't you know it had slats and what they do?? Slats double the
lift of a given airfoil VGs do not they only make a poor performing airfo
il
work better. Taking the slats off of the 701 wing make a completely
different airfoil so you have become test pilots not experimental pilots.
The
waiver that you signed with Zenith when you undertook the 701 constructio
n
could really bite you in the butt in the event of a incident! Have fun. A
ll
intelligent replies will be answered. Please read Abbott and Von Doenhoff
chapter on slotted airfoils before you start typing. Happy flying.
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
> [b]
--------
=C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93Always do what you are afraid to do.=C3=A2=82=AC=EF
=BD
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)
"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW -
2009
"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404595#404595
bsp; -===============
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