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condition inspection

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deuskid

Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 26
Location: St Louis, MO

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:46 am Post subject: condition inspection

I'm a newbie so pardon the basic question bu if one buys a flying a/c I understand they have to have an A&P annually do a condition inspection since they don't have the repairman's certificate.



Is it a good assumption that any A&P can do this on a Lightning?  Typically how much do A&Ps charge for this service?



Just thinking ahead.



Thanks,



John

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flying(at)qdea.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:06 am Post subject: condition inspection

Yes, an experimental must have an annual condition inspection, which 

can be done by the builder if he has a Repairman's Certificate for 

the aircraft he built, or any A&P.



The cost for the condition inspection will vary by the individual 

doing it, from $150 to probably $500.



Hugh Sontag



 	  Quote: 	
		  



I'm a newbie so pardon the basic question bu if one buys a flying 

a/c I understand they have to have an A&P annually do a condition 

inspection since they don't have the repairman's certificate.



Is it a good assumption that any A&P can do this on a Lightning? 

Typically how much do A&Ps charge for this service?



Just thinking ahead.



Thanks,



John

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deuskid

Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 26
Location: St Louis, MO

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:00 am Post subject: Re: condition inspection

Thanks for the info but I'm surprised.



I was told by a guy that does canards to expect over a $1,000 and by a guy that does RVs $700-!,000.  



If Condition Inspections are that expensive it would be a costly fixed cost over the years of ownership and make me reconsider and build rather than buying.



John

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sales(at)billandruth.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: condition inspection

It cost me $1,420 for my annual inspection this year and I had only 30 hours on the 1979 Turbo Dakota since the last annual!  It is why I sold the aircraft and will be building.  The high cost of certified aircraft parts, fuel (12 gph at over $4.00 a gallon) and insurance certainly contributed to my decision.  I will never own a certified aircraft again as you are at the mercy of the market and fees and costs will only go up over time.  Until you experience the financial pain certified ownership can bring, unless you have very deep pockets, you cannot imagine how easily it destroys the desire to go flying!  I believe that is why the experimental and LSA categories will only attract more and more pilots over time.  Hope this helps.......Bill.

 

 deuskid wrote: [quote]    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Lightning-List message posted by: "deuskid" <empire.john(at)gmail.com> (empire.john(at)gmail.com)



Thanks for the info but I'm surprised.



I was told by a guy that does canards to expect over a $1,000 and by a guy that does RVs $700-!,000.  



If Condition Inspections are that expensive it would be a costly fixed cost over the years of ownership and make me reconsider and build rather than buying.



John





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=128061#128061





 



















  	
 [b]

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Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: condition inspection

In a message dated 8/8/2007 8:01:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  empire.john(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Thanks for the info but I'm surprised.



I was told by a guy    that does canards to expect over a $1,000 and by a guy that does RVs    $700-!,000.  



If Condition Inspections are that expensive it would    be a costly fixed cost over the years of ownership and make me reconsider and    build rather than buying.



	


 

  

 This sounds a bit like a misinformed A&P.  The standards are lower  for mechanic accountability and for required actions on a condition inspection  rather than an ANNUAL inspection.  For example, there are no AD's to check,  since they dont exist for homebuilts!  (unless you use a certified engine  and prop).   Also, anyone can work on the plane to prepare it for  inspection.  ETC.

  

 The other possiblity is that said A&P was and AI.   The  followup question should be "How much do you charge for Certified  airplanes?"    We had some local mechanics that were astronomical  for annual inspections for GA planes.

  

 Yet another thought is that $1,000 a year is not that bad if the mechanic  does it all.  If you change oil, check instrument and  avionics calibration, remove the wheels, dismount the tires, clean and pack  the wheel bearings, replace the brake linings, install new brake fluid, change  all fluid filters.....all the stuff you are supposed to do,  parts could  cost $300 and could take a number of hours to perform.

  

 I do agree with your conclusion, however, that it is better to build than  to buy.

  

 Doug Koenigsberg



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  [quote][b]

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deuskid

Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 26
Location: St Louis, MO

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: condition inspection

[quote="Kayberg(at)aol.com"]In a message dated 8/8/2007 8:01:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  empire.john(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Thanks for the info but I'm surprised.



I was told by a guy    that does canards to expect over a $1,000 and by a guy that does RVs    $700-!,000.  



If Condition Inspections are that expensive it would    be a costly fixed cost over the years of ownership and make me reconsider and    build rather than buying.



	


 

  

 This sounds a bit like a misinformed A&P.  The standards are lower  for mechanic accountability and for required actions on a condition inspection  rather than an ANNUAL inspection.  For example, there are no AD's to check,  since they dont exist for homebuilts!  (unless you use a certified engine  and prop).   Also, anyone can work on the plane to prepare it for  inspection.  ETC.

  

 The other possiblity is that said A&P was and AI.   The  followup question should be "How much do you charge for Certified  airplanes?"    We had some local mechanics that were astronomical  for annual inspections for GA planes.

  

 Yet another thought is that $1,000 a year is not that bad if the mechanic  does it all.  If you change oil, check instrument and  avionics calibration, remove the wheels, dismount the tires, clean and pack  the wheel bearings, replace the brake linings, install new brake fluid, change  all fluid filters.....all the stuff you are supposed to do,  parts could  cost $300 and could take a number of hours to perform.

  

 I do agree with your conclusion, however, that it is better to build than  to buy.

  

 Doug Koenigsberg



   	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	




Actually this is from 2 A&Ps from 2 different forums [Canardavaition and VAF].  On VAF they guy told me he charges around 750 and cited another name that charges $1,000 [both specifically for RVs and both are EAA counselors and DARs].  The canard guy actually said 2-3k for the initial condition inspection [~40 hours (at) $75/hr] and then something north of $1k after that.



What have been your personal experiences?



thanks



John

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Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:21 am Post subject: condition inspection

In a message dated 8/9/2007 9:49:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  empire.john(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

I do    agree with your conclusion, however, that it is better to build than  to    buy.

  

Doug Koenigsberg



  

 	  Quote: 	
		      [b]


	




Actually this is from 2 A&Ps from 2 different forums    [Canardavaition and VAF].  On VAF they guy told me he charges around 750    and cited another name that charges $1,000 [both specifically for RVs and both    are EAA counselors and DARs].  The canard guy actually said 2-3k for the    initial condition inspection [~40 hours (at) $75/hr] and then something north of    $1k after that.



What have been your personal    experiences?



thanks



John



	


 

  

  

 Most of my personal experiences are vicarious.  My conclusion,  however, is that certified mechanics are not a monolitic bunch.

  

 We had an A & P who would come to Green Landings and do annual  condition inspections of ultra-light type, (Rans, SkyRanger) planes in about an  hour and charged $300-400, if he could see all the fittings.   He took  the owner's word about the engine condition and the wheel bearings.    He was very highly experienced, both as a mechanic and pilot ( former  airlines).   He flew in, inspected a couple planes, gave a couple  BFR's and left. He was a bit sloppy, but cheap.

  

 You mention a couple cases above.   I have heard that of that  type also.   To spend 40 hours doing a condition inspection  on a Rutan type canard is just anal.   Especially if it has been  flying.   However, it is not a bad idea to have that anal guy do  your plane once  every 5 years or so just for peace of mind.  If he  says it is airworthy after 40 hours of work; it probably is!   

  

 One other consideration is your own mechanical expertise.   If  you built a plane, you should be able to inspect it.  If you have NEVER  built a plane, or overhauled a car engine, welded, assembled something other  than a bicycle, then a good inspector is worth whatever.   If you  already know everything about your plane, then to pay $ to have someone inspect  what you already know to be correct, is annoying.

  

 The DAR we use at Green Landings told me about a recent airworthyness he  did for an engineer-type.  The builder acted like it was an insult that  such an inspection should be performed.   The DAR checked what he  wanted anyway and got to a fuel system check. "Turn on the boost pump"  he  told the owner.  "Now come and look" he said.   A fitting in the  fuel system was loose and a fine mist of fuel was spraying directly on the  exhaust pipe!  "This is why we do inspections!" said my DAR to the  builder.

  

  

 doug



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deuskid

Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 26
Location: St Louis, MO

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:53 am Post subject: Re: condition inspection

 	  Kayberg(at)AOL.COM wrote: 	
		  In a message dated 8/9/2007 9:49:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  empire.john(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

I do    agree with your conclusion, however, that it is better to build than  to    buy.

  

Doug Koenigsberg



  

 	  Quote: 	
		      [b]



	




Actually this is from 2 A&Ps from 2 different forums    [Canardavaition and VAF].  On VAF they guy told me he charges around 750    and cited another name that charges $1,000 [both specifically for RVs and both    are EAA counselors and DARs].  The canard guy actually said 2-3k for the    initial condition inspection [~40 hours (at) $75/hr] and then something north of    $1k after that.



What have been your personal    experiences?



thanks



John



	


 

  

  

 Most of my personal experiences are vicarious.  My conclusion,  however, is that certified mechanics are not a monolitic bunch.

  

  <snip>

 One other consideration is your own mechanical expertise.   If  you built a plane, you should be able to inspect it.  If you have NEVER  built a plane, or overhauled a car engine, welded, assembled something other  than a bicycle, then a good inspector is worth whatever.   If you  already know everything about your plane, then to pay $ to have someone inspect  what you already know to be correct, is annoying.

  

<snip>  The DAR checked what he  wanted anyway and got to a fuel system check. "Turn on the boost pump"  he  told the owner.  "Now come and look" he said.   A fitting in the  fuel system was loose and a fine mist of fuel was spraying directly on the  exhaust pipe!  "This is why we do inspections!" said my DAR to the  builder.

  

  

 doug



	




Thanks Doug.



I have significant auto mechanical experience and aptitude.  



I was weighing buying an experimental v. building when this issue arose. I snipped your message for space sake but everything you said had value - thank you.



I can see having another set of eyes on one's a/c would be wise.  I was just surprised at the large amounts quoted by the few replies in the other forums.



IF an condition inspection is > $1k each year and is avoidable by building the a/c oneself then it is an meaningful input in the buy/build decision process.



John

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Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:51 am Post subject: condition inspection

In a message dated 8/11/2007 7:54:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  empire.john(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Thanks Doug.



I have significant auto mechanical experience    and aptitude.  



I was weighing buying an experimental v. building    when this issue arose. I snipped your message for space sake but everything    you said had value - thank you.



I can see having another set of eyes on    one's a/c would be wise.  I was just surprised at the large amounts    quoted by the few replies in the other forums.



IF an condition    inspection is > $1k each year and is avoidable by building the a/c oneself    then it is an meaningful input in the buy/build decision    process.



John

	


 

  

  

 John,

  

 There is no question that the Lightning is the best value on the market  today for 1) price 2)performance 3) ease of building (particularly at a build  center) 4) economy.

  

 There is financing available, a quickly growing body of experience, sound  construction and trustworthy people who run things.  Actually the people  are more important than the airplane, but that is another thread.

  

 At Green Landings, we are proud to represent the two very best  kitplanes in their respective worlds;  The Sky Ranger and the  Lightning.  

  

 By the time you have built one you will confidently do your own  inspections, and since you will probably keep it til you die, the whole question  of "condition inspections" is moot.

  

 Sorry about the commercial, my emotions are a bit ragged today.

  

 doug



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