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Residue on negative battery pole

 
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werner schneider



Joined: 24 May 2021
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:09 am    Post subject: Residue on negative battery pole Reply with quote

Had a look at the battery today (currently pretty cold and cranking not to flashy) and did see some residue on the negative battery pole, this is a Panasonic LC-XC1222P any idea what this is coming from and what to do/check next?

Cheers Werner


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:44 am    Post subject: Residue on negative battery pole Reply with quote

Is it green?

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 02:13 werner schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "werner schneider" <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)>

Had a look at the battery today (currently pretty cold and cranking not to flashy) and did see some residue on the negative battery pole, this is a Panasonic LC-XC1222P any idea what this is coming from and what to do/check next?

Cheers Werner




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werner schneider



Joined: 24 May 2021
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:53 am    Post subject: Residue on negative battery pole Reply with quote

Hi Sebastien,

don't ask me I have a red-green deficiency, so my green is different from yours Sad I would tend more to a yellow, did you have a look at the picture in the link?
 
BTW just made a capacity test (start voltage 13.05, start Amps 3.54, stop voltage 10.75 volt with 3.1 A) after 4h 48 minutes

On 20.01.2022 15:43, Sebastien wrote:

Quote:
Is it green?

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 02:13 werner schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "werner schneider" <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)>

Had a look at the battery today (currently pretty cold and cranking not to flashy) and did see some residue on the negative battery pole, this is a Panasonic LC-XC1222P any idea what this is coming from and what to do/check next?

Cheers Werner




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:06 am    Post subject: Residue on negative battery pole Reply with quote

Sorry Werner, I had not seen the attachment. It looks yellow to me as well so I'm not sure what it is. My best guess is that the battery is leaking fumes or battery acid and that's the result but I've never seen that colour before.

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 06:56 Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)> wrote:

Quote:
Hi Sebastien,

don't ask me I have a red-green deficiency, so my green is different from yours Sad I would tend more to a yellow, did you have a look at the picture in the link?
 
BTW just made a capacity test (start voltage 13.05, start Amps 3.54, stop voltage 10.75 volt with 3.1 A) after 4h 48 minutes

On 20.01.2022 15:43, Sebastien wrote:

Quote:
Is it green?

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 02:13 werner schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "werner schneider" <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)>

Had a look at the battery today (currently pretty cold and cranking not to flashy) and did see some residue on the negative battery pole, this is a Panasonic LC-XC1222P any idea what this is coming from and what to do/check next?

Cheers Werner




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Ceengland



Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 253
Location: MS

PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:35 am    Post subject: Residue on negative battery pole Reply with quote

On 1/20/2022 8:52 AM, Werner Schneider wrote:

Quote:
Hi Sebastien,

don't ask me I have a red-green deficiency, so my green is different from yours Sad I would tend more to a yellow, did you have a look at the picture in the link?
 
BTW just made a capacity test (start voltage 13.05, start Amps 3.54, stop voltage 10.75 volt with 3.1 A) after 4h 48 minutes

On 20.01.2022 15:43, Sebastien wrote:

Quote:
Is it green?

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 02:13 werner schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "werner schneider" <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)>

Had a look at the battery today (currently pretty cold and cranking not to flashy) and did see some residue on the negative battery pole, this is a Panasonic LC-XC1222P any idea what this is coming from and what to do/check next?

Cheers Werner


Honestly, it just looks like dirt, to me. Wipe it off & see if you see any cracks/voids in the plastic or the sealant around the terminal. I'd have expected any corrosion to start at the terminal itself, and taper away from it; it looks like that stuff is in the inside corner of the case material.

Charlie
Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:25 am    Post subject: Residue on negative battery pole Reply with quote

Quote:
Honestly, it just looks like dirt, to me. Wipe it off & see if you see any cracks/voids in the plastic or the sealant around the terminal. I'd have expected any corrosion to start at the terminal itself, and taper away from it; it looks like that stuff is in the inside corner of the case material.

Charlie

Agreed. The seal between battery posts and interior chemistry
is usually pretty good in AGM batteries. Also, the
stuff is a strange color for battery corrosion product.

Normally a compromised seal causes corrosion to
encircle the whole post

https://mechanicbase.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/battery-terminal-corrosion.jpg

if the products of oxidation are just from battery
internal chemistry, the color is dingy white. If
the corrosion has spread to include some terminal
materials or wire, you'll get some blue-green
stuff too.

One good check is to pour a bit of water saturated
with some baking soda on it. If you get a good 'fizz'
then there's products of electrolyte corrosion in the
residue . . . otherwise it's something else.

According to an 'old' data sheet on this product . . .

http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Batteries/Panasonic/lc-x1220p.pdf

the battery should support a 3a load for something on the
order of 6 hours. How old is the battery? If it seemed
weak cranking the engine, then it may well be demonstrating
high resistance and reduced capacity.

If you can get your hands on a 'real' battery tester
like this

https://www.harborfreight.com/500-amp-carbon-pile-load-tester-91129.html

make sure the battery fully charged (on maintainer until
the charge light goes out), then load the battery down
to 9 Volts and hold it there for 15 seconds (the
harbor freight tester has a handy timer for this purpose).

This battery will produce a 15 seconds crank at better than
500A when new, 300 or less along with your flagging cap-check
suggests nearing end of life.



Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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werner schneider



Joined: 24 May 2021
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:25 pm    Post subject: Residue on negative battery pole Reply with quote

SO it took me some time over the weekend to react sorry.

On 20.01.2022 18:24, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
Honestly, it just looks like dirt, to me. Wipe it off & see if you see any cracks/voids in the plastic or the sealant around the terminal. I'd have expected any corrosion to start at the terminal itself, and taper away from it; it looks like that stuff is in the inside corner of the case material.

Charlie

  Agreed.  The seal between battery posts and interior chemistry
  is usually pretty good in AGM batteries. Also, the
  stuff is a strange color for battery corrosion product.
I cleaned it off and checked under a magnifying glass but can not see any cracks/voids, the same stuff was as well on the screw and the cable shoe. Looks yellow like sulfur.
Quote:

  Normally a compromised seal causes corrosion to
  encircle the whole post

https://mechanicbase.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/battery-terminal-corrosion.jpg

  if the products of oxidation are just from battery
  internal chemistry, the color is dingy white. If
  the corrosion has spread to include some terminal
  materials or wire, you'll get some blue-green
  stuff too.

  One good check is to pour a bit of water saturated
  with some baking soda on it. If you get a good 'fizz'
  then there's products of electrolyte corrosion in the
  residue . . . otherwise it's something else.
had to buy baking soda first and did try it out seems no reaction at all got a brownish paste.
Quote:

  According to an 'old' data sheet on this product . . .

http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Batteries/Panasonic/lc-x1220p.pdf

Panasonic dropped many of their types, looks like they get out of VLRA business.
The LC-XC1222 is flagged as end of life   (XC was their notation for Cycle long life type)
with that same form factor only the
LC-P1220 15mOhm
LC-PD1217 17mOhm
are available

I found as well two interesting documents, a VRLA white paper about internal resistance and VRLA Handbook with all current models.
found them here (scroll down) https://industry.panasonic.eu/products/energy-building/batteries/battery-cells/secondary-batteries-rechargeable-batteries/valve-regulated-lead-acid-batteries

On the US site I found two different 17Ah batteries (all flaged as discontinued):
Cycle and trickle use LC-RD1217P  12mOhm
Long life trickle use LC-PD1217       17mOhm
Looks I should search for a cycle use battery as that one has the lower internal resistance

Or swap to an Odysee as they claim 7mOhm for the same form factor
Quote:

  the battery should support a 3a load for something on the
  order of 6 hours. How old is the battery? If it seemed
  weak cranking the engine, then it may well be demonstrating
  high resistance and reduced capacity. 

  If you can get your hands on a 'real' battery tester
  like this

https://www.harborfreight.com/500-amp-carbon-pile-load-tester-91129.html

  make sure the battery fully charged (on maintainer until
  the charge light goes out), then load the battery down
  to 9 Volts and hold it there for 15 seconds (the
  harbor freight tester has a handy timer for this purpose).

  This battery will produce a 15 seconds crank at better than
  500A when new, 300 or less along with your flagging cap-check
  suggests nearing end of life.

Living in Switzerland it's not so easy to get such a unit (all this high amp testers are 500-1000 $!!) I did source a 100A one (see link below), so will test soon (ordered via a friend in the US that 500A "clearance" model for the future Smile

https://www.harborfreight.com/100a-612v-battery-load-tester-61747.html for 2.5x the price Sad

It's strange, so far these batteries lasted always around 5 years, this one is not yet a year old Sad



On 20.01.2022 18:24, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
Honestly, it just looks like dirt, to me. Wipe it off & see if you see any cracks/voids in the plastic or the sealant around the terminal. I'd have expected any corrosion to start at the terminal itself, and taper away from it; it looks like that stuff is in the inside corner of the case material.

Charlie

  Agreed.  The seal between battery posts and interior chemistry
  is usually pretty good in AGM batteries. Also, the
  stuff is a strange color for battery corrosion product.

  Normally a compromised seal causes corrosion to
  encircle the whole post

https://mechanicbase.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/battery-terminal-corrosion.jpg

  if the products of oxidation are just from battery
  internal chemistry, the color is dingy white. If
  the corrosion has spread to include some terminal
  materials or wire, you'll get some blue-green
  stuff too.

  One good check is to pour a bit of water saturated
  with some baking soda on it. If you get a good 'fizz'
  then there's products of electrolyte corrosion in the
  residue . . . otherwise it's something else.

  According to an 'old' data sheet on this product . . .

http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Batteries/Panasonic/lc-x1220p.pdf

  the battery should support a 3a load for something on the
  order of 6 hours. How old is the battery? If it seemed
  weak cranking the engine, then it may well be demonstrating
  high resistance and reduced capacity. 

  If you can get your hands on a 'real' battery tester
  like this

https://www.harborfreight.com/500-amp-carbon-pile-load-tester-91129.html

  make sure the battery fully charged (on maintainer until
  the charge light goes out), then load the battery down
  to 9 Volts and hold it there for 15 seconds (the
  harbor freight tester has a handy timer for this purpose).

  This battery will produce a 15 seconds crank at better than
  500A when new, 300 or less along with your flagging cap-check
  suggests nearing end of life.



  Bob . . .

  Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
  survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
  out of that stuff?"


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:53 am    Post subject: Residue on negative battery pole Reply with quote

Quote:

https://www.harborfreight.com/100a-612v-battery-load-tester-61747.html for 2.5x the price

Before you spend money on this thing, let
me pick one up and do an autopsy on it.
I didn't get a really close look at the
last one I saw but I'm skeptical of
its performance claims.

I'll find out.


Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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Ceengland



Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 253
Location: MS

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:08 am    Post subject: Residue on negative battery pole Reply with quote

snipped
Quote:
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Batteries/Panasonic/lc-x1220p.pdf
> <http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Batteries/Panasonic/lc-x1220p.pdf>

Panasonic dropped many of their types, looks like they get out of VLRA
business.
The LC-XC1222 is flagged as end of life   (XC was their notation for
Cycle long life type)
with that same form factor only the
LC-P1220 15mOhm
LC-PD1217 17mOhm
are available

I found as well two interesting documents, a VRLA white paper about
internal resistance and VRLA Handbook with all current models.
found them here (scroll down)
https://industry.panasonic.eu/products/energy-building/batteries/battery-cells/secondary-batteries-rechargeable-batteries/valve-regulated-lead-acid-batteries

On the US site I found two different 17Ah batteries (all flaged as
discontinued):
Cycle and trickle use LC-RD1217P  12mOhm
Long life trickle use LC-PD1217       17mOhm
Looks I should search for a cycle use battery as that one has the
lower internal resistance

Or swap to an Odysee as they claim 7mOhm for the same form factor
snipped


No idea what's available in Europe, but at least here in the USA, there
are many batteries that will work well as starting/endurance batteries.
Here's one on the French Amazon site that I wouldn't hesitate to use in
my RV6:
https://www.amazon.fr/Batterie-agm-12v-22ah-victron/dp/B016C1FUS2/ref=sr_1_26?crid=37965HB22594Q&keywords=sla+battery+12v+20+ah&qid=1643126325&sprefix=sla+battery+12v+20+ah%2Caps%2C239&sr=8-26

Note that most of the 20AH & 22AH SLA batteries will fit in the same
mount as an Odyssey PC680. They also have more total energy, for
failed-alternator endurance. I've used batteries from at least 3 or 4
different brands/vendors over the years, and all give performances at
least on par with Odyssey batteries. Based on some anecdotal evidence
from RV-x owners, these 'no name' batteries may even be better than the
current production Odysseys.

FWIW,

Charlie

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werner schneider



Joined: 24 May 2021
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:16 am    Post subject: Residue on negative battery pole Reply with quote

Thanks Charlie,

I can find similar Amazon offers down to 40 Euros, the poles look a bit
less solid then on the Panasonic once, they are as well available
17/20/22Ah from different brands the housing looks similar for each of
them would be nice if one could get more technical details.

Pansonic did offer two different lines where one was with less internal
resistance then the other, The PC680 is available for around 125 Euro.

What just did make me wonder I had in 17.5 years used 3 batteries
(17/20/22Ah they all lasted well, this last one lasted just 10 months,
no idea why....

Cheers Werner (the 100A tester will be in 2morrow)

On 25.01.2022 17:13, Charlie England wrote:
Quote:

<ceengland7(at)gmail.com>

snipped
>>
>> http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Batteries/Panasonic/lc-x1220p.pdf
>> <http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Batteries/Panasonic/lc-x1220p.pdf>
>
> Panasonic dropped many of their types, looks like they get out of
> VLRA business.
> The LC-XC1222 is flagged as end of life   (XC was their notation for
> Cycle long life type)
> with that same form factor only the
> LC-P1220 15mOhm
> LC-PD1217 17mOhm
> are available
>
> I found as well two interesting documents, a VRLA white paper about
> internal resistance and VRLA Handbook with all current models.
> found them here (scroll down)
> https://industry.panasonic.eu/products/energy-building/batteries/battery-cells/secondary-batteries-rechargeable-batteries/valve-regulated-lead-acid-batteries
>
> On the US site I found two different 17Ah batteries (all flaged as
> discontinued):
> Cycle and trickle use LC-RD1217P  12mOhm
> Long life trickle use LC-PD1217       17mOhm
> Looks I should search for a cycle use battery as that one has the
> lower internal resistance
>
> Or swap to an Odysee as they claim 7mOhm for the same form factor
snipped

No idea what's available in Europe, but at least here in the USA,
there are many batteries that will work well as starting/endurance
batteries. Here's one on the French Amazon site that I wouldn't
hesitate to use in my RV6:
https://www.amazon.fr/Batterie-agm-12v-22ah-victron/dp/B016C1FUS2/ref=sr_1_26?crid=37965HB22594Q&keywords=sla+battery+12v+20+ah&qid=1643126325&sprefix=sla+battery+12v+20+ah%2Caps%2C239&sr=8-26
Note that most of the 20AH & 22AH SLA batteries will fit in the same
mount as an Odyssey PC680. They also have more total energy, for
failed-alternator endurance. I've used batteries from at least 3 or 4
different brands/vendors over the years, and all give performances at
least on par with Odyssey batteries. Based on some anecdotal evidence
from RV-x owners, these 'no name' batteries may even be better than
the current production Odysseys.

FWIW,

Charlie



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:28 pm    Post subject: Residue on negative battery pole Reply with quote

At 11:15 AM 1/25/2022, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>

Thanks Charlie,

I can find similar Amazon offers down to 40 Euros, the poles look a bit
less solid then on the Panasonic ones . . .

Some modern SLVA batteries have rather skinny
terminals . . . some builders have experienced
difficulties with posts breaking off due to
bending loads transmitted though robust cables.
A good practice for attaching wire to these
or any battery is to fabricate the jumpers
from battery to ground and contactor from 4AWG
welding cable. Soft, easy to work with, entirely
suited to task. These are also mechanically
friendlier to battery terminals.

4AWG welding cable is quite often suited
for all of ship's fat wires but if you already
have something else installed, the substitution
of welding cable for the battery leads is
still a good idea.



Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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werner schneider



Joined: 24 May 2021
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:11 pm    Post subject: Residue on negative battery pole Reply with quote

I have a rear mounted battery so that would mean either a lot of work to replace or a short interconnect between the two cable types.

still opting for a battery with more robust poles

On 25.01.2022 21:27, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

Quote:
4AWG welding cable is quite often suited
  for all of ship's fat wires but if you already
  have something else installed, the substitution
  of welding cable for the battery leads is
  still a good idea.


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Ceengland



Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 253
Location: MS

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:28 pm    Post subject: Residue on negative battery pole Reply with quote

On 1/25/2022 3:10 PM, Werner Schneider wrote:

Quote:
I have a rear mounted battery so that would mean either a lot of work to replace or a short interconnect between the two cable types.

still opting for a battery with more robust poles

On 25.01.2022 21:27, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

Quote:
4AWG welding cable is quite often suited
  for all of ship's fat wires but if you already
  have something else installed, the substitution
  of welding cable for the battery leads is
  still a good idea.

The bigger, internal-nut style is available in 'no-name' batteries as well; I've used both style posts with good success. For me, the biggest advantage of the bigger posts is more choices of cable orientation (it can exit across the top of the battery, instead of only up or away). The one I linked was just the 1st that I saw on the French Amazon page. I use welding cable for fat wires, as Bob says above.

Charlie
Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]


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yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:38 pm    Post subject: Residue on negative battery pole Reply with quote

I've used these.  The photo says it all. Just a fixed resistance. No
switch or timer or anything else.
Ken

On 24-Jan.-22 9:59 p.m., Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Quote:
>
> https://www.harborfreight.com/100a-612v-battery-load-tester-61747.html
> for 2.5x the price

   Before you spend money on this thing, let
   me pick one up and do an autopsy on it.
   I didn't get a really close look at the
   last one I saw but I'm skeptical of
   its performance claims.

   I'll find out.

  Bob . . .

  Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
  survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
  out of that stuff?"



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:33 am    Post subject: Residue on negative battery pole Reply with quote

At 03:33 PM 1/25/2022, you wrote:
Quote:
On 1/25/2022 3:10 PM, Werner Schneider wrote:
Quote:
I have a rear mounted battery so that would mean either a lot of work to replace or a short interconnect between the two cable types.

What kind of airplane? Normally
the first wires leading from a battery
are quite short irrespective of
location.

https://tinyurl.com/yckf48xb





Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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werner schneider



Joined: 24 May 2021
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:04 pm    Post subject: Residue on negative battery pole Reply with quote

Hi Bob,

you're right, the positive wire is pretty short as the solenoid is located on the battery, however the negative one goes about ten feet to the firewall.

This is on a Glastar with the battery in the tail section (composite fuselage).

BTW very interesting today, we did today 3 flights, start was not very enthusiastic, but ok, but then landing after the 3rd flight and refueling (probably 10 Minutes) the battery did refuse (after a 40 min flight) to turn the prop, after 2 attemps it went better (heated up?). So most probably the battery behind there was cold soaked in the flight (-5 deg Celsius on 5000 ft) which is causing the main problems, anyway we need to replace this one probably got a bad unit.

Thanks Werner

On 27.01.2022 15:32, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

Quote:
At 03:33 PM 1/25/2022, you wrote:
Quote:
On 1/25/2022 3:10 PM, Werner Schneider wrote:
Quote:
I have a rear mounted battery so that would mean either a lot of work to replace or a short interconnect between the two cable types.

  What kind of airplane? Normally
  the first wires leading from a battery
  are quite short irrespective of
  location.

https://tinyurl.com/yckf48xb





  Bob . . .

  Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
  survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
  out of that stuff?"


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