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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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 Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 10:49 am Post subject: Failure Tolerant Architectures |
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At 12:09 PM 5/3/2024, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bobmeyers" <bobmeyers(at)meyersfamily.org>
BoB, Quoting from your post...
"I'm increasingly of the opinion that Z-101 should be the ONLY z-figure in any 'upgrade' to the connection"
While I like the concepts in Z-101 I'm not sold on this being the only idea. |
Of course, there are LOTS of ideas . . . the vast
majority of which have been demonstrated over
the past century in millions of general aviation
light aircraft. I'm aware of none that left the factories
at Beech, Mooney, Cessna or Piper with two
batteries.
| Quote: | There has
been a number of posts about incorporating a back up battery in its architecture
which seems counter productive. |
Not sure what posts you're referring to.
Yes, some of the z-figures do show how to
add-a-battery . . . some of them decades
old.
In the OBAM aviation environment we were able
to explore a lot of options with some notion
of improving on a design . . . we learned a lot
over the years . . . including how to
conduct failure modes effects analysis:
(1) Assuming your battery has been sized and
maintained to meet YOUR battery-only
performance requirements, under what conditions
would you suffer a loss-of-battery emergency
. . . i.e. panel goes dark, engine stops . . .?
(2) Assume you're cruising along at altitude
watching the ground go by, what kind of battery
failure would produce an event that
got your attention? What would be the nature
of that event?
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
In the interest of creative evolution
for the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and repeatable experiment.
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stuart(at)stuarthutchison
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 08, 2024 11:17 pm Post subject: Failure Tolerant Architectures |
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A related anecdote Bob …
On a recent VFR cross-country I had an under current warning on the EFIS during taxi for departure … indicating -17A from the battery.
Cycling the alternator switch and field CB did nothing.
I taxied back in and shut down, then restarted to see if higher RPM would help - the problem disappeared, but wasn’t normal for our aircraft.
We have an almost new 25Ah battery, so I got airborne knowing I could just load shed to get to the next destination 2hrs away if required (with maintenance options at the arrival location) - no problem getting there.
On return however, the same problem cropped up, so I load shed the GNS430, autopilot, and electronic ignition in the air and got down to -4A (ie about 5 hours battery endurance with EFIS, backup radio and iPad moving map).
After refuel and restart the problem was gone again for most of the last 1hr leg, then reoccured.
We suspected the alternator was failing (PlanePower EI70), but discovered the B-lead had almost completely broken through at the alternator terminal (under the silicon boot).
Perhaps the crowbar was stepping in and resetting after shut/cool down, what do you think?
Kind regards, Stuart
| Quote: | On 7 May 2024, at 4:48 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 12:09 PM 5/3/2024, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bobmeyers" <bobmeyers(at)meyersfamily.org>
BoB, Quoting from your post...
"I'm increasingly of the opinion that Z-101 should be the ONLY z-figure in any 'upgrade' to the connection"
While I like the concepts in Z-101 I'm not sold on this being the only idea. |
Of course, there are LOTS of ideas . . . the vast
majority of which have been demonstrated over
the past century in millions of general aviation
light aircraft. I'm aware of none that left the factories
at Beech, Mooney, Cessna or Piper with two
batteries.
| Quote: | There has
been a number of posts about incorporating a back up battery in its architecture
which seems counter productive. |
Not sure what posts you're referring to.
Yes, some of the z-figures do show how to
add-a-battery . . . some of them decades
old.
In the OBAM aviation environment we were able
to explore a lot of options with some notion
of improving on a design . . . we learned a lot
over the years . . . including how to
conduct failure modes effects analysis:
(1) Assuming your battery has been sized and
maintained to meet YOUR battery-only
performance requirements, under what conditions
would you suffer a loss-of-battery emergency
. . . i.e. panel goes dark, engine stops . . .?
(2) Assume you're cruising along at altitude
watching the ground go by, what kind of battery
failure would produce an event that
got your attention? What would be the nature
of that event?
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
In the interest of creative evolution
for the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and repeatable experiment.
|
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1913
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2024 3:00 pm Post subject: Broken "B" Lead |
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It is unlikely that two things went wrong at the same time. Fix the cable and test fly it.
Crowbar circuits usually don't reset themselves.
Many of us can not open files with the extension p7s. How about a JPG or PNG picture?
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Joe Gores |
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stuart(at)stuarthutchison
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2024 3:57 pm Post subject: Failure Tolerant Architectures |
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For sure Joe.
The alternator is likely just fine.
B-lead fixed and all good now.
However, I’m interested to know how a damaged B-lead could cause intermittent normal then totally off-line then normal indications if the crowbar doesn’t reset during shut-down? As an internally regulated system all this would be part of the PlanePower alternator.
There was no pic in the first e-mail, I don’t know what p7s is but here’s a JPG.
Regards, Stuart
| Quote: | On 10 May 2024, at 9:00 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> wrote:
It is unlikely that two things went wrong at the same time. Fix the cable and test fly it.
Crowbar circuits usually don't reset themselves.
Many of us can not open files with the extension p7s. How about a JPG or PNG picture?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513572#513572
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1913
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2024 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Failure Tolerant Architectures |
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The vast majority of electrical problems are caused by bad connections, not equipment failure.
And bad connections can cause intermittent symptoms as the resistance varies.
It is great that you found the problem and fixed it.
Good going.
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