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Z-19 Function
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:18 am Post subject: Z-19 Function

At 12:36 PM 8/18/2014, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,



 I appreciate your help and opinion with this matter.  I will approach Robert about this and find out the specifics of the electrical demands of his system.  I have heard great things about his customer service and the folks using his system in their running aircraft have nothing but great things to say about it and him.  He is a very knowledgable A&P and has deep knowledge of his system.



 Thank you again.



 Justin 	


   Is there a real wiring diagram for this system? The manual

   speaks to the need for 4 breakers in a dual ECU system

   but I find only references to ECU power connections in

   the harness picture. Do I have all the documentation

   for this system?



 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:22 pm Post subject: Z-19 Function

Bob, 



I just sent the request for the diagram to Robert.  I will forward it along as soon as it comes in.

Thanks

Justin



On Aug 19, 2014, at 11:16 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

[quote]  At 12:36 PM 8/18/2014, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,



 I appreciate your help and opinion with this matter.  I will approach Robert about this and find out the specifics of the electrical demands of his system.  I have heard great things about his customer service and the folks using his system in their running aircraft have nothing but great things to say about it and him.  He is a very knowledgable A&P and has deep knowledge of his system.



 Thank you again.



 Justin 	


   Is there a real wiring diagram for this system? The manual

   speaks to the need for 4 breakers in a dual ECU system

   but I find only references to ECU power connections in

   the harness picture. Do I have all the documentation

   for this system?



 

 

   Bob . . .     	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:13 pm Post subject: Z-19 Function

At 04:21 PM 8/19/2014, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,



I just sent the request for the diagram to Robert.  I will forward 

it along as soon as it comes in.


	


  So I take it that you were expected to install this

  system with no wiring diagram?



   Bob . . .

jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:30 pm Post subject: Z-19 Function

I have just the installation instructions at this time.  Not sure if I have ever seen a wiring diagram for it.



Justin



On Aug 19, 2014, at 4:08 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 At 04:21 PM 8/19/2014, you wrote:

> Bob,

> 

> I just sent the request for the diagram to Robert.  I will forward it along as soon as it comes in.

 

 So I take it that you were expected to install this

 system with no wiring diagram?

 

 

 

  Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:22 am Post subject: Z-19 Function

At 07:29 PM 8/19/2014, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>

I have just the installation instructions at this time.  Not sure if 

I have ever seen a wiring diagram for it.


	


   Okay, let's back up. Describe your proposed engine/electrical

   system. I think you mentioned an IO-360. You started this

   thread with a query about Z-19 . . . which is not normally

   suggested for a Lycoming. Do you plan one alternator or two?

   If you were talking Z-19, then I deduce you're planning

   on two batteries. You don't have detailed system integration

   data on the engine electronics so it's also true that we

   don't have energy demands data either.



   How much electrical hardware have you installed already?

   What holes have you drilled to mount switches?



   Pending receipt of real electrical requirements for this

   system, I'm leaning toward a single battery, two alternator

   installation Z-13/8. Simpler, more reliable, lighter and

   much lower cost of ownership.



   After we see what the numbers are, let's work to understand

   why Z-13/8 would NOT meet your needs for the elegant

   solution.

   Bob . . .

jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:27 pm Post subject: Z-19 Function

It is a Lyc IO-360. I had initially planned on a single alternator but I am open to putting 2 on the plane. Is the only option one on the front of the engine and one on the vacuum pad? 

I have installed none of the hardware and just the rocker switches for ldg light, bcn, nav lights and a split master/alternator switch. 

I am waiting on word from Robert Paisley with the schematics. He seems a bit reluctant to give actual schematics. Maybe because it is proprietary info. Not sure. I do know that both ecus draw 2.4 amps total at high rpm. I still need the coil and fuel pump numbers. 

It sounds like the dual alternator single battery system just may be the way to go here. 

Thanks for the help!

Justin

On Aug 20, 2014, at 5:19, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 07:29 PM 8/19/2014, you wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> I have just the installation instructions at this time.  Not sure if I have ever seen a wiring diagram for it.

  Okay, let's back up. Describe your proposed engine/electrical

  system. I think you mentioned an IO-360. You started this

  thread with a query about Z-19 . . . which is not normally

  suggested for a Lycoming. Do you plan one alternator or two?

  If you were talking Z-19, then I deduce you're planning

  on two batteries. You don't have detailed system integration

  data on the engine electronics so it's also true that we

  don't have energy demands data either.

  How much electrical hardware have you installed already?

  What holes have you drilled to mount switches?

  Pending receipt of real electrical requirements for this

  system, I'm leaning toward a single battery, two alternator

  installation Z-13/8. Simpler, more reliable, lighter and

  much lower cost of ownership.

  After we see what the numbers are, let's work to understand

  why Z-13/8 would NOT meet your needs for the elegant

  solution.

  Bob . . .

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:32 pm Post subject: Z-19 Function

I haven't followed this discussion very closely, but...Is Bob asking for actual schematics of the internals, or just complete wiring diagrams? It's not too surprising that the mfgr is unwilling to share the complete schematics of the devices; I doubt that you'd get them from Garmin, King, etc, either.

Charlie

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)>

 It is a Lyc IO-360. I had initially planned on a single alternator but I am open to putting 2 on the plane. Is the only option one on the front of the engine and one on the vacuum pad?

 I have installed none of the hardware and just the rocker switches for ldg light, bcn, nav lights and a split master/alternator switch.

 I am waiting on word from Robert Paisley with the schematics. He seems a bit reluctant to give actual schematics. Maybe because it is proprietary info. Not sure. I do know that both ecus draw 2.4 amps total at high rpm. I still need the coil and fuel pump numbers.

 It sounds like the dual alternator single battery system just may be the way to go here.

 Thanks for the help!

 Justin

 On Aug 20, 2014, at 5:19, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

 > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>

 >

 > At 07:29 PM 8/19/2014, you wrote:

 >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)>

 >>

 >>

 >> I have just the installation instructions at this time.Â  Not sure if I have ever seen a wiring diagram for it.

 >

 >Â  Okay, let's back up. Describe your proposed engine/electrical

 >Â  system. I think you mentioned an IO-360. You started this

 >Â  thread with a query about Z-19 . . . which is not normally

 >Â  suggested for a Lycoming. Do you plan one alternator or two?

 >Â  If you were talking Z-19, then I deduce you're planning

 >Â  on two batteries. You don't have detailed system integration

 >Â  data on the engine electronics so it's also true that we

 >Â  don't have energy demands data either.

 >

 >Â  How much electrical hardware have you installed already?

 >Â  What holes have you drilled to mount switches?

 >

 >Â  Pending receipt of real electrical requirements for this

 >Â  system, I'm leaning toward a single battery, two alternator

 >Â  installation Z-13/8. Simpler, more reliable, lighter and

 >Â  much lower cost of ownership.

 >

 >Â  After we see what the numbers are, let's work to understand

 >Â  why Z-13/8 would NOT meet your needs for the elegant

 >Â  solution.

 >

 >

 >Â  Bob . . .

 >

 >

 >

 >

 ===========

  -

 Electric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 _blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

[b]

kenryan

Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 429

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:49 pm Post subject: Z-19 Function

I also doubt that Garmin, King, etc. would provide a complete airplane wiring diagram.Â 

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 2:31 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  [quote]I haven't followed this discussion very closely, but...Is Bob asking for actual schematics of the internals, or just complete wiring diagrams? It's not too surprising that the mfgr is unwilling to share the complete schematics of the devices; I doubt that you'd get them from Garmin, King, etc, either.

Charlie

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)>

 It is a Lyc IO-360. I had initially planned on a single alternator but I am open to putting 2 on the plane. Is the only option one on the front of the engine and one on the vacuum pad?

 I have installed none of the hardware and just the rocker switches for ldg light, bcn, nav lights and a split master/alternator switch.

 I am waiting on word from Robert Paisley with the schematics. He seems a bit reluctant to give actual schematics. Maybe because it is proprietary info. Not sure. I do know that both ecus draw 2.4 amps total at high rpm. I still need the coil and fuel pump numbers.

 It sounds like the dual alternator single battery system just may be the way to go here.

 Thanks for the help!

 Justin

 On Aug 20, 2014, at 5:19, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

 > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>

 >

 > At 07:29 PM 8/19/2014, you wrote:

 >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)>

 >>

 >>

 >> I have just the installation instructions at this time.Â  Not sure if I have ever seen a wiring diagram for it.

 >

 >Â  Okay, let's back up. Describe your proposed engine/electrical

 >Â  system. I think you mentioned an IO-360. You started this

 >Â  thread with a query about Z-19 . . . which is not normally

 >Â  suggested for a Lycoming. Do you plan one alternator or two?

 >Â  If you were talking Z-19, then I deduce you're planning

 >Â  on two batteries. You don't have detailed system integration

 >Â  data on the engine electronics so it's also true that we

 >Â  don't have energy demands data either.

 >

 >Â  How much electrical hardware have you installed already?

 >Â  What holes have you drilled to mount switches?

 >

 >Â  Pending receipt of real electrical requirements for this

 >Â  system, I'm leaning toward a single battery, two alternator

 >Â  installation Z-13/8. Simpler, more reliable, lighter and

 >Â  much lower cost of ownership.

 >

 >Â  After we see what the numbers are, let's work to understand

 >Â  why Z-13/8 would NOT meet your needs for the elegant

 >Â  solution.

 >

 >

 >Â  Bob . . .

 >

 >

 >

 >

 ===========

  -

 Electric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 _blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

[b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:52 pm Post subject: Z-19 Function

At 03:25 PM 8/20/2014, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>



It is a Lyc IO-360. I had initially planned on a single alternator 

but I am open to putting 2 on the plane. Is the only option one on 

the front of the engine and one on the vacuum pad?


	


   That's the usual configuration. Most airplane

   engine accessory cases are fitted with AND20000

   vacuum pump pads . . . that get covered when

   a vacuum system is not installed.



   This is the easiest place to install a second

   alternator. At the moment, the SD-8 (3 pound,

   8A) or SD-20 (6-pound, 20A) are the options.



   We would LIKE to use the SD-8 if it makes

   sense.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I have installed none of the hardware and just the rocker switches 

for ldg light, bcn, nav lights and a split master/alternator switch.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  I am waiting on word from Robert Paisley with the schematics. He 

seems a bit reluctant to give actual schematics. Maybe because it is 

proprietary info. Not sure. I do know that both ecus draw 2.4 amps 

total at high rpm. I still need the coil and fuel pump numbers.


	


   Okay, what we need from him is system integration

   data. There are x-number of power input leads to

   the system. How many must be powered up at any one

   time for the engine to run and how much current is

   drawn by each input?



 	  Quote: 	
		  It sounds like the dual alternator single battery system just may be 

the way to go here.


	


   Absolutely . . . in fact, it's QUITE practical to

   consider one battery and one alternator . . .

   ALL of those decisions are predicated on knowing

   minimum ENERGY required of the components

   of the electrically dependent engine combined

   with ENERGY needed to operated minimal panel

   equipment for what ever YOU decide is your

   battery-only endurance target.



   This is why I've hammered on the notion that doing

   a load analysis for the proposed system is the

   #1 task in choosing an architecture and sizing

   components.



   There's a good reason why we do this in certified

   airplanes . . . a reason that is no less valid

   in an experimental airplane.



   Sounds like this is a capable system that exploits

   a lot of lessons learned from the automotive

   experience with ECFI . . . but no matter how

   GOOD his equipment is, he has a DUTY to tell

   the customer everything needed to craft the

   elegant electrical system and write the logical

   pilot's operating instructions for both NORMAL

   and ABNORMAL operations.



   Don't cut any more holes for switches until

   we have GOOD data for deciding what those

   switches are and from whence they get power.

   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:57 pm Post subject: Z-19 Function

At 05:48 PM 8/20/2014, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I also doubt that Garmin, King, etc. would 

provide a complete airplane wiring diagram.Â


	


   No, they don't . . . in fact, they should NOT. Garmin tried it

   once and it got them a lot of grief . . .



   But all the big guys deliver hardware to the OEM air-framers

   the data we're asking for from EFII is no more than Garmin

   or King would have to offer before they even walked in

   the door.

   Bob . . .

crabandy(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:23 pm Post subject: Z-19 Function

I too have Robert's EFII's dual electronic ignition (which has been great so far!) on my RV7. I didn't start out with this mindset, but with an electrically dependent ignition system and electrically dependent EFIS systems the only architecture that made sense was Bob's Z13/8. I simply hooked 1 ECU and coil to the EBUS and the other ECU and Coil to the Batt Bus. 

I believe Bob challenges you to find a better designed system than the examples in the aeroelectric connection, I'm a novice and didn't even come close. I did try to justify a small backup battery system, than a dual battery system but in the end the end Z13/8 gave way more redundancy, utility, checks and balances, and bang for the buck than the others. Think through every failure scenario of the various electrical systems, in addition think through the preflight checks (how do you know that second battery will power your essential electronics for 30 minutes when you need it?) of the backup systems and maintenance. The choice will be easy.

I couldn't be happier with the idiot proof redundancy of the electrical architecture Bob gave us in Z13/8.

Sent from my iPhone

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Aug 20, 2014, at 3:25 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com> wrote:

 It is a Lyc IO-360. I had initially planned on a single alternator but I am open to putting 2 on the plane. Is the only option one on the front of the engine and one on the vacuum pad? 

 I have installed none of the hardware and just the rocker switches for ldg light, bcn, nav lights and a split master/alternator switch. 

 I am waiting on word from Robert Paisley with the schematics. He seems a bit reluctant to give actual schematics. Maybe because it is proprietary info. Not sure. I do know that both ecus draw 2.4 amps total at high rpm. I still need the coil and fuel pump numbers. 

 It sounds like the dual alternator single battery system just may be the way to go here. 

 Thanks for the help!

 Justin

> On Aug 20, 2014, at 5:19, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> At 07:29 PM 8/19/2014, you wrote:

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> I have just the installation instructions at this time.  Not sure if I have ever seen a wiring diagram for it.

> 

> Okay, let's back up. Describe your proposed engine/electrical

> system. I think you mentioned an IO-360. You started this

> thread with a query about Z-19 . . . which is not normally

> suggested for a Lycoming. Do you plan one alternator or two?

> If you were talking Z-19, then I deduce you're planning

> on two batteries. You don't have detailed system integration

> data on the engine electronics so it's also true that we

> don't have energy demands data either.

> 

> How much electrical hardware have you installed already?

> What holes have you drilled to mount switches?

> 

> Pending receipt of real electrical requirements for this

> system, I'm leaning toward a single battery, two alternator

> installation Z-13/8. Simpler, more reliable, lighter and

> much lower cost of ownership.

> 

> After we see what the numbers are, let's work to understand

> why Z-13/8 would NOT meet your needs for the elegant

> solution.

> 

> 

> Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:31 pm Post subject: Z-19 Function

At 08:23 PM 8/20/2014, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I too have Robert's EFII's dual electronic ignition (which has been 

great so far!) on my RV7.


	


   Were you offered any more documentation than the

   down-loadable 'installation manuals' we've been

   praying over?

 	  Quote: 	
		    I didn't start out with this mindset, but with an electrically 

 dependent ignition system and electrically dependent EFIS systems 

 the only architecture that made sense was Bob's Z13/8. I simply 

 hooked 1 ECU and coil to the EBUS and the other ECU and Coil to the Batt Bus.


	


   Yup . . . that works.



   I'd probably put 1/2 the equipment on the

   battery bus and the other half on the main bus.

   During alternator-out operations, you load-shed

   half of the engine support . . .which is readily

   available by simply turning the master switch back

   on. The only time this would be necessary is if

   you suffered DUAL failures of pretty good hardware

   in any single tank full of fuel . . . exceedingly

   unlikely.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I believe Bob challenges you to find a better designed system than 

the examples in the aeroelectric connection . . .


	


   Sure. The Z-figures didn't start finding their way

   into the book until about Rev 4 or so. They marched

   up to Z-10 getting refined as we went. Somewhere

   along the line, I dumped Z-1 thru Z-10 in favor of

   a total replacement that began with Z-11. I wanted

   to set the older iterations aside. As new figures

   are added, I'll fill in the numbers below Z-11.



   But you're right. Unlike our brothers flying the

   TC Iron, we're free to EVOLVE architectures in

   the quest for the elegant solution and TAILOR

   architectures to the airplane/mission.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I couldn't be happier with the idiot proof redundancy of the 

electrical architecture Bob gave us in Z13/8.


	


   You guys (or at least your predecessors) on

   the List played major roles in the development

   of the Z-figures. It's called, "Spontaneous

   order in the free market exchange of value."

   Works good every time it's tried. With few exceptions,

   I believe Z-13/8 offers system reliability

   that equals or exceeds that offered to many

   pilots of TC twins . . . but at a tiny fraction

   of the cost and complexity.



   What we've accomplished here is something for

   which the OBAM aviation community can be proud.

   Proven recipes for success driven NOT not by

   the nightmares of bureaucratic worriers but

   by the quest for an elegant solution. Andy's

   endorsement is a validation of that idea.

   Thank you sir!

   Bob . . .

crabandy(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:18 pm Post subject: Z-19 Function

 	  Quote: 	
		    Were you offered any more documentation than the

  down-loadable 'installation manuals' we've been

  praying over?

Robert's customer service concerning the ignition system has been more than excellent, I believe the schematics you guys are after are those concerning his "bus manager." I don't know much about it other than what the website states, I found Bob's Z13/8 fit my aircraft better.

Hardly load shedding with a full EFIS system/GPS/mapping/engine moniter and electronic ignition system burning way less than 8 amps from the SD8 as long as there is gas in the tanks....If it comes to that...

 	  Quote: 	
		    Thank you sir!

  Bob . . . 

No Sir, THANK YOU! 

Andy

Sent from my iPhone

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Aug 20, 2014, at 10:29 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

 At 08:23 PM 8/20/2014, you wrote:

> 

> 

> I too have Robert's EFII's dual electronic ignition (which has been great so far!) on my RV7.

  Were you offered any more documentation than the

  down-loadable 'installation manuals' we've been

  praying over?

> I didn't start out with this mindset, but with an electrically dependent ignition system and electrically dependent EFIS systems the only architecture that made sense was Bob's Z13/8. I simply hooked 1 ECU and coil to the EBUS and the other ECU and Coil to the Batt Bus.

  Yup . . . that works.

    Were you offered any more documentation than the

  down-loadable 'installation manuals' we've been

  praying over? failures of pretty good hardware

  in any single tank full of fuel . . . exceedingly

  unlikely.

> I believe Bob challenges you to find a better designed system than the examples in the aeroelectric connection . . .

  Sure. The Z-figures didn't start finding their way

  into the book until about Rev 4 or so. They marched

  up to Z-10 getting refined as we went. Somewhere

  along the line, I dumped Z-1 thru Z-10 in favor of

  a total replacement that began with Z-11. I wanted

  to set the older iterations aside. As new figures

  are added, I'll fill in the numbers below Z-11.

  But you're right. Unlike our brothers flying the

  TC Iron, we're free to EVOLVE architectures in

  the quest for the elegant solution and TAILOR

  architectures to the airplane/mission.

> I couldn't be happier with the idiot proof redundancy of the electrical architecture Bob gave us in Z13/8.

  You guys (or at least your predecessors) on

  the List played major roles in the development

  of the Z-figures. It's called, "Spontaneous

  order in the free market exchange of value."

  Works good every time it's tried. With few exceptions,

  I believe Z-13/8 offers system reliability

  that equals or exceeds that offered to many

  pilots of TC twins . . . but at a tiny fraction

  of the cost and complexity.

  What we've accomplished here is something for

  which the OBAM aviation community can be proud.

  Proven recipes for success driven NOT not by

  the nightmares of bureaucratic worriers but

  by the quest for an elegant solution. Andy's

  endorsement is a validation of that idea.

  Thank you sir!

  Bob . . .

ed.meyer(at)outlook.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:14 am Post subject: Z-19 Function

I have been following this discussion with great interest since I am  strongly considering using the EFII system on my project. I had also pretty much  zeroed in on the Z13/8 electrical system. The one thing that the EFII Bus  Manager has that I think would be desirable is the automatic fuel pump switching  if the primary pump fails. I imagine that function would not be too difficult to  add to Z13/8 with some sort of a pressure switch but I am not smart enough to  know what switch and the most â€˜elegantâ€™ way to wire it.

  

 Ed

   [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:03 am Post subject: Z-19 Function

At 11:17 PM 8/20/2014, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hardly load shedding with a full EFIS system/GPS/mapping/engine 

moniter and electronic ignition system burning way less than 8 amps 

from the SD8 as long as there is gas in the tanks....If it comes to that...


	


    Very good. 20 years ago the idea of running

    a full-up panel, electronic ignition and

    fuel injection on a 110 watt energy budget

    would probably have produced snickers from

    the peanut gallery . . . but guess what?

    You're there.



    Z-13/8 offers a 3-layered architecture

    that will (1) run everything plus the kitchen

    sink if the main alternator is up, (2) run

    everything you'd like to have on the SD-8 if the

    big guy takes a vacation and with proper

    battery sizing and maintenance (3) run

    everything NECESSARY to terminate the flight

    comfortably battery only . . . not under emergency

    conditions that dictate the lights will go

    out in 30 minutes.



    This happy situation did not arise from the

    directed efforts of any one activity . . . in

    fact, the musings and experiments here on

    the List contributed little to the advancement

    of our art. The List is an aggregator of

    ideas . . . a kind of kitchen where chefs

    sifting through an ever changing supermarket

    of ingredients searching out the most pleasing

    recipe for success. Those ingredients come from

    EVERYWHERE . . .



    The earliest efforts of Lightspeed and Unison

    ignition products might today seem amusing to

    individuals who do not know their history

    their stories . . .  products that were birthed by

    individuals with an idea and willingness to

    take a risk . . . one bombed . . . the other

    has matured greatly. Complexity has gone down,

    robustness is up, energy is down, cost of

    ownership is down, weight is down.  Along

    comes EFII . . . with perhaps the next generation

    of product evolution with still better numbers

    particularly in the arena of ENERGY.



    The rate of evolution for good recipes is retarded

    first by the distance over which the ingredients

    are dispersed and then by suppression of

    opportunity for experimentation in the development

    of new recipes. Check out the biography of

    a pencil by Leonard Read



http://tinyurl.com/me3q3hj



    This fun little story speaks to the MILLIONS of

    individuals, few of whom know each other,  who

    contribute to the crafting of a simple pencil.



    It's this same spontaneous organization of millions

    of experimenters and suppliers offering their own

    ingredients to our 'kitchens' where we strive to produce

    the best-we-know-how-to-do in airplanes.

    Bob . . .



    The universe runs on PHYSICS. All of mankind's

    endeavors in any venue distills to but two

    studies: properties of materials and management

    of energy.

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:26 am Post subject: Z-19 Function

At 10:13 AM 8/21/2014, you wrote:

 I have been following this discussion with great interest since I am strongly considering using the EFII system on my project. I had also pretty much zeroed in on the Z13/8 electrical system. The one thing that the EFII Bus Manager has that I think would be desirable is the automatic fuel pump switching if the primary pump fails. I imagine that function would not be too difficult to add to Z13/8 with some sort of a pressure switch but I am not smart enough to know what switch and the most â€˜elegantâ€™ way to wire it.

  

 Ed



  Why automatic? Describe the flight configuration under which such a system would benefit you as a pilot.

 

  Just about every airplane I've flown has two fuel pumps. For the most part, BOTH are ON for take-off and approach to landing. Above some altitude that offers plenty of time for recognition and response to failure of the main pump, the secondary pump is turned OFF and held in reserve.

 

  99.9% of all failures of an engine to produce power is caused by fuel starvation. The engine generally doesn't stop cold. From the first time you sense a change in engine operation until the time that the secondary pump switch can be thrown is a few seconds at most.

 

  There have been dozens of designs offered for automatic switching of backup hardware in aviation over the years. Some worked pretty good. The vast majority would not be asked to do their task even once over the lifetime of the airplane.

 

  Yet all such systems adds to weight, cost and complexity . . . with reliability ramifications of their own.

 



  My cursory examination of the EFII installation suggest that two switches for two pumps. One from the battery bus, the other from the main bus. This offers reliability with simplicity that will not get 'better' with any form of automation.

 

  Bob . . .      [quote][b]

jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:30 am Post subject: Z-19 Function

Bob, 

I just heard back from Robert about the EFII power demands on the 12v system. Here is what he said. 

The ECUs draw only about .1 amps ea.

The ignition coils draw about 2.3 amps ea at high rpm, but they have much higher peak currents, hence the 10A breaker. The peak currents occur for only a few milliseconds. 

The fuel pump draws a little under 5A (one pump running).

Does this help?

Thank you!

Justin

On Aug 20, 2014, at 19:29, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 08:23 PM 8/20/2014, you wrote:

> 

> 

> I too have Robert's EFII's dual electronic ignition (which has been great so far!) on my RV7.

  Were you offered any more documentation than the

  down-loadable 'installation manuals' we've been

  praying over?

> I didn't start out with this mindset, but with an electrically dependent ignition system and electrically dependent EFIS systems the only architecture that made sense was Bob's Z13/8. I simply hooked 1 ECU and coil to the EBUS and the other ECU and Coil to the Batt Bus.

  Yup . . . that works.

  I'd probably put 1/2 the equipment on the

  battery bus and the other half on the main bus.

  During alternator-out operations, you load-shed

  half of the engine support . . .which is readily

  available by simply turning the master switch back

  on. The only time this would be necessary is if

  you suffered DUAL failures of pretty good hardware

  in any single tank full of fuel . . . exceedingly

  unlikely.

> I believe Bob challenges you to find a better designed system than the examples in the aeroelectric connection . . .

  Sure. The Z-figures didn't start finding their way

  into the book until about Rev 4 or so. They marched

  up to Z-10 getting refined as we went. Somewhere

  along the line, I dumped Z-1 thru Z-10 in favor of

  a total replacement that began with Z-11. I wanted

  to set the older iterations aside. As new figures

  are added, I'll fill in the numbers below Z-11.

  But you're right. Unlike our brothers flying the

  TC Iron, we're free to EVOLVE architectures in

  the quest for the elegant solution and TAILOR

  architectures to the airplane/mission.

> I couldn't be happier with the idiot proof redundancy of the electrical architecture Bob gave us in Z13/8.

  You guys (or at least your predecessors) on

  the List played major roles in the development

  of the Z-figures. It's called, "Spontaneous

  order in the free market exchange of value."

  Works good every time it's tried. With few exceptions,

  I believe Z-13/8 offers system reliability

  that equals or exceeds that offered to many

  pilots of TC twins . . . but at a tiny fraction

  of the cost and complexity.

  What we've accomplished here is something for

  which the OBAM aviation community can be proud.

  Proven recipes for success driven NOT not by

  the nightmares of bureaucratic worriers but

  by the quest for an elegant solution. Andy's

  endorsement is a validation of that idea.

  Thank you sir!

  Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:14 pm Post subject: Z-19 Function

At 01:28 PM 8/21/2014, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>



Bob,



I just heard back from Robert about the EFII power demands on the 

12v system. Here is what he said.



The ECUs draw only about .1 amps ea.

The ignition coils draw about 2.3 amps ea at high rpm, but they have 

much higher peak currents, hence the 10A breaker. The peak currents 

occur for only a few milliseconds.

The fuel pump draws a little under 5A (one pump running).



Does this help?


	


   Very close. Is he sending you a ship's wiring

   diagram for a dual ECU system?



   Bob . . .

jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:53 pm Post subject: Z-19 Function

That's all he sent me. The pictures in the installation diagram list all of the connections made to the efii system and these numbers show the amount of current the system draws. He does suggest using his "bus manager" which has a diagram on how to hook it up to a ship's system. 

On Aug 21, 2014, at 12:13, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 01:28 PM 8/21/2014, you wrote:

> 

> 

> Bob,

> 

> I just heard back from Robert about the EFII power demands on the 12v system. Here is what he said.

> 

> The ECUs draw only about .1 amps ea.

> The ignition coils draw about 2.3 amps ea at high rpm, but they have much higher peak currents, hence the 10A breaker. The peak currents occur for only a few milliseconds.

> The fuel pump draws a little under 5A (one pump running).

> 

> Does this help?

  Very close. Is he sending you a ship's wiring

  diagram for a dual ECU system?

  Bob . . .

ed.meyer(at)outlook.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:16 am Post subject: Z-19 Function

 	  Quote: 	
		     >Why    automatic? Describe the flight configuration under which such a >system    would benefit you as a pilot.

	
 I have had an in flight fuel starvation event that was not resolved until  after a no power landing which was successful. I know from that experience that  a fog of confusion came over me and after replaying the event in my mind, I  could not recall the point that the aux fuel pump was turned on. I had been  through the drill many times to simulate an engine out emergency but I know for  me when it actually happened, I did not perform as well as I could/should have.  An automatic switching to the aux fuel pump could potentially take care of a  problem without me having to remember to do it in the event of the fog. Of  course I would want some indication of the switch occurring.

  

   [quote][b]

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