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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
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 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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On Dec 24, 2007, at 6:23 PM, tjyak50 wrote:
| Quote: |
Stealing partially from Brian Lloyd and Mark Bitterlich... with
respect to hooking a B&C model LR3C-28 Voltage Regulator to a Yak.
1) The "B" fat wire from the alternator connects to the bus bar in
the DC power box. It connects in the same place where you remove
the connection from the bus to the terminal marked "CETb" on the
Combined Relay (Aka: 200-Gizmo).
2) Terminal "F" on the alternator is wired to terminal #4 on the
new Voltage Regulator.
3) Generator On / Off switch now becomes the Alternator On / Off
switch and acts as the Alternator Field. The wire that was
connected to terminal marked "B" on the Combined relay can serve
this fucntion? and would be connected to terminal #6 on the new
regulator.
4) A wire to the Bus from the new Voltage Regulator terminal #3
acts as the Bus Voltage Sense.
5) A beefy ground wire from the New Voltage regulator pin #7
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Sounds right so far.
| Quote: |
And now a question...
6) The "Low Voltage" pin from the new Voltage Regulator is pin #5.
Appears this lamp is triggered by pin #5 going to GROUND as it
shows the lamp connected to the bus with a fuse.
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That is correct.
| Quote: | This is how the system works in my Yak, so this wire could go
directly to the existing lamp (barrel) to accomplish this function
and still keep the existing "Test" function intact?
In my airplane the GEN OUT light center pin is always hot with the
battery on and the barrel gets ground from the TEST relay or the
GEN OUT relay.
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I don't have the schematic for the Yak-50 or Yak-52 but the generator
off-line (low voltage) light in CJ6A is always connected to ground
and power applied to the bulb by a relay so you could not do that in
a CJ6A. Another thing to consider is to make sure that the two
existing low-voltage lamps (they are in parallel) doesn't draw too
much current for the low voltage switch in the regulator to sink. If
the bulbs draw too much current you could burn out the low-voltage
indicator circuit in the regulator.
| Quote: | Some of this assumes any switches or wires you re-use are known
good, so lets at least pretend that for now.
Comments please - NO FLAMES... I am just a rookie.
If these connections sound reasonable I will try it and take
pictures to document forever.
|
This all seems reasonable to me.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:15 am Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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You'd need a voltage regulator, a 10K microfarad capacitor, a crowbar and an
overvoltage module plus some fuses. The overvoltage module is a thyristor
that makes a shortcut in case of an overvoltage. That's where you need a 2
amp circuit breaker. You can find this all on the B&C website.
I've used the PMR1-28 regulator, the SBO05-2 (28 volts) crowbar, the OVM-28
thyristor and a 2 amp fuse. In my Yak 50, I only use the small 10 amp
alternator (I don't know if it's still available). That also means that I
never switch on the heavy power consumers (pitot heat - I don't need it, and
the Russian gyro - I don't want to use it, but I left them in).
By the way, the voltage regulator DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT THE BATTERY, it
needs a voltage at its output to regulate !!!
So I do not state that the electronic system outperforms the original
Russian system. At the contrary. But it is much less complex than the
Russian system and as such much easier to repair. I have it for more than a
year now, without any problems.
Jan
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:17 am Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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I forgot to mention: I have a permanent magnet alternator, so that's why I
have to use the PMR1 voltage regulator of B&C.
Jan
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:23 am Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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You’re absolutely correct, Mark. I have the small permanent magnet alternator and the corresponding circuitry, and it works fine because I know that I must not use any heavy power consumers. I left in all the original Russian equipment, so that one day, when I want to, I can go back to the Russian system very quickly.
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: maandag 24 december 2007 23:50
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: B&C Alternator
There is more than one B&C Alternator. The one that comes with the westernized YAKS's is a true alternator with an excitation field winding. It comes with an external regulator that includes over-voltage protection. It is a terrific unit but has a rather high price tag at around $700 or so. Then there is the very small PMG device that B&C sells that outputs about 10 amps at 28 volts DC maximum. This unit has no field winding, but instead is a perm. magnet generator. This unit has an external voltage regulator. It also has an OPTIONAL over-voltage crowbar circuit that I would highly suggest using as well. The latter unit is very light weight which is why you find it on most aerobatic platforms using the M-14.
The stock Russian electrical system is better than a lot of people thing. It just is a real SOB to learn and understand. You can buy a new Russian generator for about $100 brand new if you know where to look. The only parts that are hard to find are the relays, especially the "Combined Device" master control relay. However, this unit can be repaired, or even made a-new if you have a little talent and some time. You smpke a Russian part and it is a few hundred maximum. You smoke a B&C Alternator and it's a quick $700 .... pay me now, see you later.
There are simply pro and con's no matter which way you go. I've worked on both systems... and have kept the Russian one by choice.
Mark Bitterlich
---
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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Hey Brian,
Even I can understand this! This truly falls in the KISS principle realm!
Thanks, Merry Christmas!
Doc
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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On Dec 25, 2007, at 2:14 AM, Jan Mevis wrote:
| Quote: |
You'd need a voltage regulator, a 10K microfarad capacitor, a
crowbar and an
overvoltage module plus some fuses.
|
Sounds like you are using their smaller dynamo instead of their
alternator. The LR3C-28 has the OV crowbar built-in and doesn't need
the capacitor.
| Quote: | The overvoltage module is a thyristor
that makes a shortcut in case of an overvoltage. That's where you
need a 2
amp circuit breaker. You can find this all on the B&C website.
|
Right. You short the field power to ground right now (to ensure that
the alternator is well and truly off-line) and pop the breaker to
provide a clear indication to the pilot. The indication of an
overvoltage event is a low-voltage light and a popped field breaker.
BTW, did anyone ever install the overvoltage protection circuit I got
Bob Nuckolls of AeroElectric Connection to design for the Yak and CJ?
| Quote: | I've used the PMR1-28 regulator, the SBO05-2 (28 volts) crowbar,
the OVM-28
thyristor and a 2 amp fuse. In my Yak 50, I only use the small 10 amp
alternator (I don't know if it's still available). That also means
that I
never switch on the heavy power consumers (pitot heat - I don't
need it, and
the Russian gyro - I don't want to use it, but I left them in).
By the way, the voltage regulator DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT THE
BATTERY, it
needs a voltage at its output to regulate !!!
|
That is fairly normal for any sort of alternator system.
| Quote: | So I do not state that the electronic system outperforms the original
Russian system. At the contrary. But it is much less complex than the
Russian system and as such much easier to repair. I have it for
more than a
year now, without any problems.
|
You are using the much smaller and simpler dynamo system. B&C has a
full alternator system available and it does not have any such
limitations.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:31 am Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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On Dec 25, 2007, at 6:09 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:
| Quote: |
<viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>
Hey Brian,
Even I can understand this! This truly falls in the KISS principle
realm!
Thanks, Merry Christmas!
|
Yes. An alternator is very KISS compared to a generator system. Other
than the armature of the alternator itself, there are no moving parts.
I like generators the same way I like steam engines and clockwork
toys. They are very cool in the way they have all that complexity to
do what we do very simply today using a lot fewer parts.
But if you plan to depend on it, get something simpler.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:37 am Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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I was rereading the B&C website and realized I provided the link to
the wrong alternator. For a 28V system using a B&C alternator you
need the LS1A regulator, not the LR3A-28. The wiring diagram is
virtually identical but I did want to point people to the right item.
Here is the wiring diagram for the LS1A:
http://www.bandc.biz/Ls1A_dgm.pdf
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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It's a small alternator (producing AC current).
Jan
--
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:48 am Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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Brian, we might have a different definition for the word dynamo here in
Europe. When referring to the dynamo we think of a device like the one
developed by the Belgian engineer Zenobe Gramme, producing DC current. I've
found the word "generator" - used by the Russians - always very confusing,
since apparently it is used as well for alternate as for direct current
devices.
But the small 10 amp device I have, produces alternate current.
All the best,
Jan
--
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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On Dec 25, 2007, at 11:40 AM, Jan Mevis wrote:
| Quote: |
It's a small alternator (producing AC current).
|
Yes, that is true. Technically it is a dynamo because it uses a
permanent magnet and there is no way to control its output voltage
other than through an outboard shunt or switching regulator.
I tend to reserve the use of the word "alternator" for the device
that has an electromagnet (field) on the armature. The output is
controlled by varying the field current. This is what the regulator
does.
But, yes, a dynamo is a type of alternator.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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On Dec 25, 2007, at 11:48 AM, Jan Mevis wrote:
| Quote: |
Brian, we might have a different definition for the word dynamo
here in
Europe. When referring to the dynamo we think of a device like the one
developed by the Belgian engineer Zenobe Gramme, producing DC current.
|
Ah. I have seen the permanent magnet AC generator called both dynamo
and magneto. I try not to use the latter around aviation as it gets
confused with the magneto used for ignition.
| Quote: | I've
found the word "generator" - used by the Russians - always very
confusing,
since apparently it is used as well for alternate as for direct
current
devices.
|
I suppose that any device to produces electrical power from
mechanical motion could legitimately be called a generator. We call
multi-kilowatt devices powered by a diesel engine that produce mains
power a "generator set" here in the US.
Checking my dictionary:
dynamo: a machine for converting mechanical energy into electrical
energy; a generator.
magneto: a small electric generator containing a permanent magnet and
used to provide high-voltage pulses, esp. (formerly) in the ignition
systems of internal combustion engines.
alternator: a generator that produces an alternating current.
generator: a dynamo or similar machine for converting mechanical
energy into electricity.
So, now we have many words that seem to mean the same thing and are
suitable for confusing everyone.
And if you think about it, the 'alternator' we use produces DC output
by virtue of its diode array.
Isn't English wonderful! I know of no language that encourages such
ambiguity and outright confusion!
| Quote: |
But the small 10 amp device I have, produces alternate current.
All the best,
|
Thank you and Merry Christmas.
Brian Lloyd Granite Bay Montessori
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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yakplt(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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Jan, make sure..... HOLY COW DARN SURE that you also use their recommended crowbar over-voltage protection with that particular device. The way the voltage regulator is designed, if the regulating pass transistor shorts (and it can... and does... and has) then unregulated voltage is fed right to the mains. The battery will try to keep it from going over the top, but eventually you will boil the batteries too. Eventually the voltage will be high enough to start doing damage to your avionics. Seen this happen three times with those devices so far. Their kit offers a tiny little crowbar circuit that pops a breaker and then opens a relay to disconnect the pmg from the aircraft mains. Crude but effective. The only part you really need from them is their crow bar circuit for $25. The rest is available from any automotive hardware store and in fact that is the type of relay they provide in their kit.
Mark Bitterlich
---
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yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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It does not have a field winding. Instead it uses permanent magnets. Brian is correct.... such a device is usually called a dynamo.
Mark
---
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yakplt(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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It's a language issue Jan... at least I think so?
Mark
---
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:34 am Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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Thanks for the warnings, Mark. I did complete the circuit with a crowbar and a 2 amp breaker. I’ve checked the whole thoroughly before installing. But I also left in all the Russian circuits so that I always can go back easily to the Russian system. In attachment you can see the small console with the circuit breakers (2 amp for overvoltage and 15 amp for the whole circuitry). The circular openings are for a Becker radio and a Garrecht Mode S transponder. I’ve chosen to build a separate console, so that I always can restore to the original system.
Seasons greetings, and many happy landings in 2008 !
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: woensdag 26 december 2007 0:52
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: B&C Alternator
Jan, make sure..... HOLY COW DARN SURE that you also use their recommended crowbar over-voltage protection with that particular device. The way the voltage regulator is designed, if the regulating pass transistor shorts (and it can... and does... and has) then unregulated voltage is fed right to the mains. The battery will try to keep it from going over the top, but eventually you will boil the batteries too. Eventually the voltage will be high enough to start doing damage to your avionics. Seen this happen three times with those devices so far. Their kit offers a tiny little crowbar circuit that pops a breaker and then opens a relay to disconnect the pmg from the aircraft mains. Crude but effective. The only part you really need from them is their crow bar circuit for $25. The rest is available from any automotive hardware store and in fact that is the type of relay they provide in their kit.
Mark Bitterlich
---
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pa3arw(at)euronet.nl
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:06 am Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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Jan,
To the best of knowledge in Europe we also call a generator with a permanent magnet a dynamo (like the one on your bicycle) and a generator whereby the latter has a controleable magnetic field winding.
Enough about this:
Have you heard anything from the FLA with respect to the Mode-S codes…?? We and everybody else in Europe flying on the Russian register need those before anybody can install a Mode-s transponder.
Do you have any idea what will happen if you have not one installed by the 1st of January (and y’re flying of course…) and what the restrictions are??
I certainly don’t..
Hans
Van: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] Namens Jan Mevis
Verzonden: woensdag 26 december 2007 10:34
Aan: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: B&C Alternator
Thanks for the warnings, Mark. I did complete the circuit with a crowbar and a 2 amp breaker. I’ve checked the whole thoroughly before installing. But I also left in all the Russian circuits so that I always can go back easily to the Russian system. In attachment you can see the small console with the circuit breakers (2 amp for overvoltage and 15 amp for the whole circuitry). The circular openings are for a Becker radio and a Garrecht Mode S transponder. I’ve chosen to build a separate console, so that I always can restore to the original system.
Seasons greetings, and many happy landings in 2008 !
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: woensdag 26 december 2007 0:52
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: B&C Alternator
Jan, make sure..... HOLY COW DARN SURE that you also use their recommended crowbar over-voltage protection with that particular device. The way the voltage regulator is designed, if the regulating pass transistor shorts (and it can... and does... and has) then unregulated voltage is fed right to the mains. The battery will try to keep it from going over the top, but eventually you will boil the batteries too. Eventually the voltage will be high enough to start doing damage to your avionics. Seen this happen three times with those devices so far. Their kit offers a tiny little crowbar circuit that pops a breaker and then opens a relay to disconnect the pmg from the aircraft mains. Crude but effective. The only part you really need from them is their crow bar circuit for $25. The rest is available from any automotive hardware store and in fact that is the type of relay they provide in their kit.
Mark Bitterlich
---
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drc(at)wscare.com
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:57 am Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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I went by the hanger and looked at mine after some of the recent
discussions - the unit I have is an older one that was designed for
the M14 for acro - it is on a Yak 55M. I took some photos of the
install and tried to trace some of the wiring. It looks much simpler
than what has been described. I also have the info from B&C I will
scan in the computer htis weekend and forward the photos and my best
description of the install.
Herb
On Dec 24, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Roger Kemp wrote:
[quote]
<viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>
Herb (the other Doc),
Yes, please email them to me. What did you do to regulate the output
to the
system?
Doc
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: B&C Alternator |
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Thanks Herb,
Roger
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