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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

Mark, I have always respected your posts but your understanding of the

conditions that change when a waiver of established FARS is "approved"

needs some enlightenment.



You were right that the Airboss can request anything they want.

However, ICAS and the FAA have both formulated conditions (mutually

agreed) that prudently are not ever requested by any trained Airboss.

Attempting to sneak individuals into a Warbird flying during an approved

waiver period is one of them.  If the operating limitations of the

aircraft requires a crewman, then it is approved.  GIBs are usually not

listed in those written stipulations.  



There are several opportunities to fly into and over OSH during periods

not under waiver.  Once the Waiver period is triggered for airspeed,

altitude and other conditions - then good luck with any reasoning of

sneaking passengers.  The FED monitors are "On the Hook". ICAS requires

Air Ops training, the FAA requires specific guidelines under their

Operations Inspector Manual.  This is really a moot point.  Ramstein AFB

resolved this issue in the summer of 1987.



Good luck with your application for a new waiver condition.



John Cox

ICAS trained and former producer of airshows (with a dozen waivers with

my signature on them)



--

talew(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

Hi,

Does anyone want to discuss the need for flight suits at this time :>). Or 

should we save it for a less busy time ?

Terry Lewis

---

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:35 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

In a message dated 7/22/2008 4:48:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  And    according to what is now being said on this subject, I have    another

question.  Does the B-24 require two pilots to fly it?     If so, then

Pappy can not be the only FAST rated person aboard.  His    co-pilot would

have to be too.  See?  Look how much we're    learning here!  Look out

Pappy!   



Mark

	


 

 Geee.  Does both pilots (required crew) of a 747 require a type  rating?  No, just the pilot-in-command. (standard common practice with  all airlines and Part 121)

 Do both pilots of that same 747 require a ATP?  No just the PIC (Part  121 & exception if over 8 hours)

 Do both pilots of that same 747 require a 1 class flight physical?   No, just the PIC(Part 121)

 That has been the same for every airplane that I've crewed for a very long  time.

 Now you can have a type rating without a ATP?  Yes.  AAMOF I know  of several private pilots with B-25 type ratings.

 Note: PIC has nothing to do with what pilot license (private, commercial,  or ATP) is in the PIC's pocket.

  

 And the B-24 requires 2 pilots, (plus a "flight mechanic" NOTE:  not "Flight Engineer") and to fly formation in wavered airspace only  the PIC is required to have a FAST card which is the only place a FAST card is  any good, no matter what airplane he is flying.

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby



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  [quote][b]

f4ffm2(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

Jim....just to keep the record straight.  Both pilots on a 747-400 (required crew) DO have to have a type rating.  When I first started flying the 47-400 in the early 1990's, new F/O's were required to get a type rating in the left seat.  By the time I retired off the airplane in 2003, as a sop to the airlines to save money, the FAA had bought into a thing called an SIC Type Rating.....which is sort of a type rating but limited to second in command.



This SIC 'thing' is still 'grandfathered' in international operations.....but, the real rule for ICAO and EASA airspace is that, for an airplane requiring two pilots and a type rating, BOTH pilots shall have an unrestricted type rating.

FYI

Roger Baker__________________________________________

On Jul 22, 2008, at 8:32 PM, cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote]   In a message dated 7/22/2008 4:48:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  And   according to what is now being said on this subject, I have   another

question.  Does the B-24 require two pilots to fly it?    If so, then

Pappy can not be the only FAST rated person aboard.  His   co-pilot would

have to be too.  See?  Look how much we're   learning here!  Look out

Pappy!  



Mark

	


 

 Geee.  Does both pilots (required crew) of a 747 require a type rating?  No, just the pilot-in-command. (standard common practice with all airlines and Part 121)

 Do both pilots of that same 747 require a ATP?  No just the PIC (Part 121 & exception if over 8 hours)

 Do both pilots of that same 747 require a 1 class flight physical?  No, just the PIC(Part 121)

 That has been the same for every airplane that I've crewed for a very long time.

 Now you can have a type rating without a ATP?  Yes.  AAMOF I know of several private pilots with B-25 type ratings.

 Note: PIC has nothing to do with what pilot license (private, commercial, or ATP) is in the PIC's pocket.

  

 And the B-24 requires 2 pilots, (plus a "flight mechanic" NOTE: not "Flight Engineer") and to fly formation in wavered airspace only the PIC is required to have a FAST card which is the only place a FAST card is any good, no matter what airplane he is flying.

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby



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[b]

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

In a message dated 7/23/2008 1:18:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  f4ffm2(at)adelphia.net writes:

  

 You may be correct about that, since I don't read those regs anymore.   I was always under the impression the only reason F/O got typed was because of  the requirement that a rated pilot be at the controls at all times, and with  flights over 8 hrs, needing a relief pilot, that's why it was done at  all. 

  

 Which airline did you fly for?

  

 Jim

  	  Quote: 	
		  Jim....just to keep the record straight.  Both pilots on a 747-400    (required crew) DO have to have a type rating.  When I first started    flying the 47-400 in the early 1990's, new F/O's were required to get a type    rating in the left seat.  By the time I retired off the airplane in 2003,    as a sop to the airlines to save money, the FAA had bought into a thing called    an SIC Type Rating.....which is sort of a type rating but limited to second in    command.    



   This SIC 'thing' is still 'grandfathered' in international    operations.....but, the real rule for ICAO and EASA airspace is that, for an    airplane requiring two pilots and a type rating, BOTH pilots shall have an    unrestricted type rating.

   



   FYI

   



   Roger Baker__________________________________________

      On Jul 22, 2008, at 8:32 PM, cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com) wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		            In a message dated 7/22/2008 4:48:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)      writes:

      	  Quote: 	
		  And        according to what is now being said on this subject, I have        another

question.  Does the B-24 require two pilots to fly        it?  If so, then

Pappy can not be the only FAST rated person        aboard.  His co-pilot would

have to be too.  See?  Look        how much we're learning here!  Look out

Pappy!         



Mark

	


     

     Geee.  Does both pilots (required crew) of a 747 require a type      rating?  No, just the pilot-in-command. (standard common practice      with all airlines and Part 121)

     Do both pilots of that same 747 require a ATP?  No just the PIC      (Part 121 & exception if over 8 hours)

     Do both pilots of that same 747 require a 1 class flight      physical?  No, just the PIC(Part 121)

     That has been the same for every airplane that I've crewed for a very      long time.

     Now you can have a type rating without a ATP?  Yes.  AAMOF I      know of several private pilots with B-25 type ratings.

     Note: PIC has nothing to do with what pilot license (private,      commercial, or ATP) is in the PIC's pocket.

      

     And the B-24 requires 2 pilots, (plus a "flight mechanic" NOTE:      not "Flight Engineer") and to fly formation in wavered airspace      only the PIC is required to have a FAST card which is the only place a FAST      card is any good, no matter what airplane he is flying.

      

     Jim "Pappy" Goolsby



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 	  Quote: 	
		  

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	




="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	


 

  



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  [quote][b]

dhanshew(at)cinci.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:10 am Post subject: Required crewmember

awesome.



---

kurt(at)scitechsys.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: Required crewmember

Anybody know if this will take place during the show:



Want to Fly with the Aeroshell T-6 Aerobatic Team? Here's How ...



http://www.avweb.com/register/AirVenture2008AeroShellPromo/rules.html



If it is - I wonder how they get away with it.

-- 

Kurt Howerton

N923YK

http://cj6.scitechsys.com

david(at)mcgirt.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: Required crewmember

Happens at 8am in the morning..    Show starts at 1pm.. 

---

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: Required crewmember

Win a ride in the practice session - not the air show.



Herb



On Jul 23, 2008, at 11:00 AM, Kurt Howerton wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Anybody know if this will take place during the show:



 Want to Fly with the Aeroshell T-6 Aerobatic Team? Here's How ...



 http://www.avweb.com/register/AirVenture2008AeroShellPromo/rules.html



 If it is - I wonder how they get away with it.

 -- 

 Kurt Howerton

 N923YK

 http://cj6.scitechsys.com

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: Required crewmember

No different than the winner of the DC 3 ride last year which was not  

part of the airshow.



Herb

On Jul 23, 2008, at 11:00 AM, Kurt Howerton wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Anybody know if this will take place during the show:



 Want to Fly with the Aeroshell T-6 Aerobatic Team? Here's How ...



 http://www.avweb.com/register/AirVenture2008AeroShellPromo/rules.html



 If it is - I wonder how they get away with it.

 -- 

 Kurt Howerton

 N923YK

 http://cj6.scitechsys.com

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

John, when an expert speaks.  I listen.  I am not an expert on wavers by

any means.  In fact, I have seen the FAA be very prejudicial when

issuing them, so it is clear that just about anything goes when it comes

to the FAA.  



A few people have sent replies to what I was trying to say that had

nothing to do with what I was TRYING TO SAY!  Thus I found myself on the

defensive with things that I was not trying to say to begin with!  



Never the less, I accept your corrections and your expertise for what

they are, and thanks for posting them!  



Now let me try.... one last time .....  to explain what my question

were.  



I have actually tried to make only two points.  Here they are:  



One was that I do not believe that there is an official FAA document

anywhere that uses the term "FAST" in it, and that includes Waivers.

Many disagreed.  I asked for a copy.  I got a copy, but not about

anything to do with FAST.  I could be wrong.  If I am, I'd like to see

it in writing.  



The other dealt with terminology, but the darn thing has gotten so far

out into left field that it is getting harder and harder to get back to

my original question!   For example... I never once, not ever, wanted,

desired, suggested or was asking to sneak ANYONE into the back seat of

an airplane for an airshow.  That all came from OTHER people talking,

not me.

Let me repeat.  I have no desire or inclination to figure out a way to

get someone that should not be there into the back seat of an airplane

participating in an airshow.  



Now, that said...... 



What I was trying to talk about, and it seems just about everybody

misunderstood, was that some Experimental Exhibition Aircraft have

written operating limitations that say that the only people that can fly

IN them, are "Required Crew Members".  Now just forget all about

airshows for a minute.  I have seen that exact operating limitation

written for a YAK-52 with my very eyes.  That same YAK-52 carries people

flying in it all the time.  



So here is where Airshows came into the question.  



If YAK-52 owners fly people in the backseat of their aircraft with this

very same operating condition (limitation) written into their specific

aircraft FAA operating limitations. Then they must somehow have figured

out a way to call that guy in back, "a Required Crew Member".   



Now the same airplane goes to an airshow and the people say:  You can

not have anyone else in the aircraft unless they are a Required Crew

Member.  



Joe Schmuckatelli flew into the field in the backseat of the YAK-52 and

no one said a WORD about it.  So does this mean he was a "Required Crew

Member when he arrived, but come the time of the airshow, he no longer

was a Required Crew Member?  I personally do not know, but it seems to

make no sense to me.   



As you can see, I am not trying to put someone in the back seat for an

Airshow.  I am trying to understand how when you flew everywhere else

BUT an airshow, ANYONE in the backseat can be referred to as a required

crew member.  But arrive in Wavered Airspace, and now what determines

what a Required Crew Member changes?  Is that how it works? 



That's the question.  That is what I am trying to get an answer to.

That and the FAA ever saying that anyone had to have a FAST card to do

something.  FAA mind you.  



Thanks, 



Mark

 



 



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

Don't get parachutes for formation flight.  



Good one Terry. 



Mark

 



--

david(at)mcgirt.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

To your one point Mark -



WAIVERS/AUTHORIZATIONS - FAA Form 7711-1



"7.  Pilots who wish to conduct non-aerobatic formation flight in waivered

airspace must possess a valid industry formation training and evaluation

credential acceptable to the FAA."



 	  Quote: 	
		   One was that I do not believe that there is an official FAA document

 anywhere that uses the term "FAST" in it, and that includes Waivers.

 Many disagreed.  I asked for a copy.  I got a copy, but not about

 anything to do with FAST.  I could be wrong.  If I am, I'd like to see

 it in writing.  


	


Your other questions on Require crew - too much effort for my pee brain.. 

Interesting exercise though



David

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

Actually Pappy, you are quoting FAA Regs.  Type Ratings, Medical

Catagories, Part 121, everything you refer to is an FAA regulation in

one way or the other.   It seems that you believe FAA Regs and FAST

cards both operate under the same canopy of  common sense.  I.E., They

both have the same "mother" per se.  Factually, that simply is not the

case.  You can not take a requirement for a FAST card and then assume it

carries with it the same logic that the FAA applies to all of its rules

and regulations.  I actually do not think you are correct about

everything you referenced regarding FAA regs by the way, but that is

BESIDE THE POINT.    



The FAST card is not issued by the FAA.  The FAA has nothing to do with

FAST cards.  Period.  That said, the FAA does not convey special

priviledges to any pilot on this planet unless they agree to do so in

writing in the form of a rule, regulation, or notice.  None of which has

been forthcoming in this discussion.  



The Statement made to ME was this:  "ANY PILOT FLYING IN ANY AIRCRAFT IN

WAVERED AIRSPACE HAS TO HAVE A FAST CARD."  



This statement was made in reference to whether a person in the back

could be in the aircraft at an airshow.  Thus, what I was TOLD was...you

could have two pilots in a YAK-52, and it would be legit only if BOTH of

them had FAST CARDS, and then only under certain conditions.  When I

asked why this was, the answer I got back was that ANY PILOT FLYING IN

ANY AIRCRAFT HAD TO HAVE A FAST CARD.  Hey, I did not make these words

up, that was what was passed to me right here in River City.  



Thus, if you have two pilots in a B-24 and both of them are "Required

Crew", and both have access to flight controls, it stands to reason that

the same rule would apply to BOTH of them... Regardless of FAA logic on

their rules and regs. 



I repeat BOTH of them would SEEM to be required to have a FAST card.

And it makes sense too when you come to think about it.  If you have any

aircraft in formation, and that aircraft has two pilots in it, both with

access to the flight controls, then both of them should be FAST rated in

case the other for some reason can no longer fly the aircraft.  For

safety purposes it makes perfect sense. 



But, now you're telling me something different.  You are saying that

only the Pilot in Command is required to have a FAST card while flying

in Wavered Airspace.  



Hey, I am not making this up.  Either what you say is right, or what the

other expert says is right.  Which is it?  



Mark

  



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

Ok Folks, here we go!  



Look David, when I am wrong, I like to think I have enough character to

admit it.   BUT WE'RE NOT QUITE THERE YET!



Nice try with the quote you sent... But..... 

  

Please note: Taken from: FAA 8700.1 CHG 22  Chapter 48. Form 7711-1:

When a person applies for a waver, he does so using a 7711-2 as

explained  below: 



"Completion of the task results in the approval or disapproval of the

applicant's FAA Form 7711-2. If approval is granted, FAA Form 7711-1

with attached special provisions is issued to the applicant."  



By the way, and of specific note, there is NO REFERENCE TO FORMATION

FLIGHT AT ALL IN A FORM 7710-2 !!!  There also is no specific rule that

has to be wavered in order to allow formation flight.  Any pilot in this

country can fly formation, in any airspace he wants to.  Keep that

tidbit in mind please.  Can you refer to any FAA rule or regulation that

says otherwise?  I sure can not, but if you can find one, please let me

know.  



This means that the words you just quoted below came from a specific

WAVER that was issued following the submission of a Form 7711-2.

Quoting from a specific Waver issued by the FAA does not make it an FAA

rule or policy. It is however an official FAA document. What it means is

that the FAA is WAVERING it's rules based on a certain APPLICATION.

WHAT FAA RULE GOT WAVERED THAT SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT FORMATION FLIGHT?

Umm... There is none.  Again, a WAVER is an EXCEPTION TO THE RULES!  



So to really put your quote in context, we need a copy of the

application (Form 7711-2) that goes along with that specific 7711-1 form

you quoted as well.  Which, so far, is missing.  



Here is a good example to what I am talking about.  Does every aircraft

that flies in wavered airspace require an operating transponder with

mode C installed and working?  Especially in formation?  Well, no.. You

would not want that would you?    



On the other hand, if you operate your aircraft in our WAVERED AIRSPACE

it sure as heck better be on and operating!   That is because when the

original application (Form 7711-2) was sent in, the FAA was ASKED TO

MAKE IT A REQUIREMENT to operate in that WAVERED AIRSPACE (located at

New Bern NC)! The FAA took that right off the 7711-2, and put it right

on their 7711-1.    Does this then mean that this specific 7711-1

REPRESENTS FAA RULES AND POLICY FOR ALL WAVERED AIRSPACE?  No, it does

not. Just the one at EWN.    

  

 Now you refer to this quote:  "7.  Pilots who wish to conduct

non-aerobatic formation flight in wavered airspace must possess a valid

industry formation training and evaluation credential acceptable to the

FAA."



I'LL BET YOU APPLES TO ORANGES THAT WORDS TO THAT EFFECT WERE IN THE

ORIGINAL 7711-2 APPLICATION.  I.E., THE FAA WAS ASKED TO PUT THAT

REQUIREMENT IN THERE AS A WAVER TO THEIR NORMAL RULES AND REGS.  AS IN:

"SUCH A REQUIREMENT FOR FORMATION FLIGHT IS NOT NORMALLY REQUIRED, BUT

IT WILL BE IF YOU ASK FOR IT!".  



So you come to me and show me an example of where the FAA gave you

exactly what you asked for in Form 7711-1 and then say: SEE HERE, FAA

POLICY.  



Sorry no. 



First, why did not someone just say: Ya gotta have a FAST card.  Answer:

Because the FAA would not have approved that even if you put it in your

7711-2.  In fact, the 7711-2 might have even said:  "MUST HAVE FAST

CARD", but since the FAA refuses to recognize non governmental

credentials or qualifications that covers territory in their domain,

they allow you to say something like this INSTEAD:   "must possess a

valid industry formation training and evaluation credential acceptable

to the FAA."  NOW JUST HOW VAGUE IS THAT?  That might be a FAST card,

and it also might be a military pilot designation.  Whatcha think?



Mark



--

randmyak52(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

That has always been my understanding, Just happens that FAA deems a fast 

card to meet that requirement.

---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

What Air Force/ Army was it that I saw in a a 2 piece flight suit lately? It

was probably the Army. To nomex or not...at least on top that is!

Now how do you address half a nomex suit?

Doc



--

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

This is not done during the show or in wavered airspace. 

  

  

  

  In a message dated 7/23/2008 12:04:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  kurt(at)scitechsys.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Yak-List    message posted by: Kurt Howerton <kurt(at)scitechsys.com>



Anybody    know if this will take place during the show:



Want to Fly with the    Aeroshell T-6 Aerobatic Team? Here's How    ...



http://www.avweb.com/register/AirVenture2008AeroShellPromo/rules.html



If    it is - I wonder how they get away with it.

-- 

Kurt    Howerton

N923YK

http://cj6.scitechsys.com



	




Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today.

  [quote][b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

No comment. 

Mark

 



--

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