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jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest
|
 Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: Builder Available! |
 |
|
One or two a year? that is going to be a BIG problem with FAA
ICHARD MILLER wrote:
| Quote: |
i don't know if this has been covered but after having to clean up my swamped inbox i missed alot of it. the only person allowed to contribute to the 51% rule is a person that is not compensated for his time ie. , owner friends and family,the only back door to this rule is the purchase of a kit from another builder. there is no limit on the compensation to the builder and thier work falls under the 51% rule. there are also a couple of other fars that deal with this but as long as only one or two a year come out of that shop then i don't see the faa getting a real hard on about it. but i would suggest that if you go this way at least get and a+p to do the work. since you are not going to be able to determine the condition of the aircraft and its build quality from build experence.
rick
--- On Thu, 8/28/08, John Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> wrote:
>From: John Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
>Subject: RE: Builder Available!
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 4:48 PM
>Just call the guy a "hired educator". The owner
>shows the ways of
>capitalism and the worker provides the labor.
>
>
>
>Unfortunately to acquire the Airworthiness Certificate
>regardless of the
>Repairman pursuit the owner of the kit must certify he has
>done 51%.
>
>
>
>John Cox
>
>
>
>From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>John Danielson
>Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:15 PM
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Builder Available!
>
>
>
>I don't believe it's a problem to have help
>building your experimental.
>To hire someone to build the whole plane for you is not a
>problem
>either, if you don't apply for the repairmen's
>certificate. This would
>indicate that you built the plane.
>
>Having help building is like having a friend or
>organization build a
>plane. If you only had help with construction, you would
>still be able
>to apply for the repairmen's certificate, You are the
>builder.
>
>
>
>John L. Danielson
>
>
>
>________________________________
>
>From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>Mike Robertson
>Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:40 PM
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Builder Available!
>
>
>
>Also, be careful about who may be on the list listening!!
>
>Mike Robertson
>Das Fed
>
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>________________________________
>From: bmeyette(at)gmail.com
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Builder Available!
>Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:33:36 -0400
>
>isn't that contrary to the spirit, if not the letter,
>of the 51% builder
>rule? Nothing against you personally, and i dont say this
>with any
>antagoinstic meaning, but I understand that the current FAA
>reexamination of the 51% rule and possible tightening of
>restrictions on
>builders is due to the proliferation of "builders for
>hire".
>
>brian
>
>
>
>________________________________
>
>From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>Jack Sparling
>Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 8:14 PM
>To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com; rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Builder Available!
>
>If you are looking for someone to complete your project, I
>will be
>available in September. Please take a look at my blog and
>give me a
>call to discuss your needs.
>
>
>
>All the best,
>
>
>
>Jack Sparling
>
>N5115Q 40487 210hrs.
>
>Crestwood, Kentucky
>
>Cell: (502) 262-6557
>
>Jhs_61(at)yahoo.com
>
>N5115Q.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.c
>om/Navigator?RV-List
>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>ONT> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 NT size >
>
>
>Checked by AVG.
>
>
>8/27/2008 7:06 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>ttp://forums.matronics.com
>=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>
>
>
>See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out
>featured
>posts. Check It Out!
><http://www.windowslive.com/connect?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_connect2_082008>
>
>
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.c
>om/Navigator?RV-List
>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
|
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rv6n(at)optonline.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: Builder Available! |
|
|
2one or two a year 2?
6nbsp;
Maybe I am just really slow C but it took me six years to build my RV6 E 6nbsp; My opinion about this builder for hire is C if you want a hired (rivet) gun C go buy a resale! 6nbsp; You are not part of the clan and I have no respect for you E 6nbsp; Find yourself a good building 6nbsp;addict C or 2repeat offender 2 that is willing to sell his blood sweat and passionately built RVxx 6nbsp;and be proud 6nbsp;to fly one of the greatest aircraft available E 6nbsp; Don 7t be a schmuck and claim you built it C be proud 6nbsp;you own it E 6nbsp; I was very proud of my Cessna s 6nbsp;and American General when I owned them 6nbsp;but I did not build them E 6nbsp;
6nbsp;
No one can blame the FAA for trying to get rid of the cheaters!
6nbsp;
It is a shame when you have to rationalize 6nbsp;your way around the rules because you are hurting the real builders E 6nbsp; I will still ooooh 6nbsp; and aaaah 6nbsp;your purchased RVxx 6nbsp;that you bought as a resale if it looks like it is built with quality and perfection which you are hoping for but have no guarantee when you hire a gun E 6nbsp;
6nbsp;
My building days are over and my RV6 is for sale and I only have 80 hours on it E 6nbsp; When it sells 6nbsp; I will be going LSA 6nbsp;and will be proud 6nbsp;of what-ever I have the privilege 6nbsp;of buying and flying then E
6nbsp;
Getting off my soap box 6nbsp;now E
6nbsp;
Bob Bales
6nbsp;
do not archive
6nbsp;
6nbsp;
6nbsp;
6nbsp;
6nbsp;
6nbsp;
---
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: Builder Available! |
|
|
If the owner is always working and doing 10% of the build and the other six builder assist employees (ie TWTT) do 90% of the build, but the owner was learning by watching, listening and writing a check, do I conclude that you think this qualifies?
The wide spread misunderstanding provides a solid base for the FAA to implement a new policy.
I still love those guys toiling in their garage with little outside assistance who pose questions and become the intent and integrity of this great ole abused rule.
John Cox
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Finch
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 8:59 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Builder Available!
Glad to see this response. I went to a professional building class for the empennage, but that pro-builder-assister had an iron rule that the aircraft owner always had to be present and working/learning. That I too believe meets the letter and spirit of the Amateur Built rules.
But companies or individuals who blatantly offer to build even a part of your aircraft if you're too busy are screwing all of us with the FAA. Don't like the regs? Get 'em changed before you screw the rest of us who really are building and learning. Still too busy? Why'd you start a kit? Sell your project and buy someone's completed plane. There are lots on the market.
Ralph Finch
On Behalf Of Kyrilian Dyer
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 6:45 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Builder Available!
<cut>
Though I don't think it's totally black and white, I don't believe the FAA has any real problem with builders getting assistance where they're involved too (working alongside a pro). But the FAA clearly has major issues with amateur builders who pay for someone else to do the work without being present and involved.
I think it's important that we all realize what's at stake and remind ourselves what the regs say. Getting professional assistance (builder involved) is not the same as hiring out the work (builder not involved). If we don't abide by the regs then the regs will change--for the worse, I expect. [quote] [/b][/b][/b][/b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List[/b]http://forums.matronics.com[/b]http://www.matronics.com/contribution [b]
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: Builder Available! |
|
|
Terry, a tragic acceptance of how the EAA has been corrupted by money
forces. There should be a whole new category of awards for Build Assist
products. Then we could respectfully wax enthusiastically on the many
who toil in the spirit of the 51% rule.
A close friend hired out his award winner RV-8,from Montana. Other
friends congratulated him on his many plaques and prudent purchase of
fame and glory.
John Cox
--
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rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: Builder Available! |
|
|
Wrong conclusion. In your example the aircraft owner did only 10% of the build, obviously not meeting the 51% minimum.
In the class or workshop that I took, it was 50-50, there was one pro guy per amateur owner-builder. And that was not normal, usually more amateurs than pros. Anyway we all worked like dogs the whole week. If I stopped more than 20 secs to catch my breath the pro guy was on my case! As an office worker I hadn't done so much physical work for decades.
I learned great mechanical skills about riveting, squeezing, grinding, etc., all things I really needed since I didn't know squat going in. The only thing I didn't get was time puzzling through the plans and figuring things out, there was just no time for that. We amateurs came out with real, new skills and well-built empennages. Now I am toiling in my garage with help from VAF, this list, and a couple of buddies in town who are also building RVs. But the beginning workshop was a huge help and confidence builder for guys like me, who don't have any handyman background at all. I didn't even own a shop vac!
The TWTT and its kind are clearly frauds and I don't understand how they're still in business. Why the FAA has to promulgate new amateur rules instead of enforcing the current ones is a mystery to me. Though I do think the FAA should generate new rules allowing the completely pro-built experimental aircraft but demanding very high, factory-like build standards and of course no repairman's certificate for the owner.
| Quote: | From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:09 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
If the owner is always working and doing 10% of the build and the other six builder assist employees (ie TWTT) do 90% of the build, but the owner was learning by watching, listening and writing a check, do I conclude that you think this qualifies?
The wide spread misunderstanding provides a solid base for the FAA to implement a new policy.
I still love those guys toiling in their garage with little outside assistance who pose questions and become the intent and integrity of this great ole abused rule.
John Cox
|
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: Builder Available! |
|
|
Okay, I'll play Ralph.
You did (50-50) or 25.51% of the total assembly, the hired professionals did 25.49% for an exact cut of > 51.00% of the assembly. Congrats! Fabrication by the manufacturer of parts did <48.99%. Result 100.00% of the final product. Step to the window for you Lottery Winnings.
The FAA is working with manufacturer's of approved OBAM kit aircraft to establish the Fab percentage. Existing kit approvals will fall below 49.0% and may be as little as 0.5% for Plans built. Under the new proposed Policy (not a rule) the documentation of Build Assist will require a new more specific written log of Builder Assist (not just hired guns). Under the new rules, how will you reach 51.0% or better from the work that you personally do? Not what your check wrote. Not that you also might want the DAR to process your request to be called a Repairman so you can complete Conditional Inspections.
Many kits require 2000+ man/hours to complete (the RV-10 more like 2500-2750 hours). Your 25.51% would equal 550 hours spread over two weeks is 275 hours per week. You were on the floor maybe 40 hours (lets make that 60 hours per week) of the most physical work you have done in decades with only 20 seconds to catch your breath. Two weeks = 120 hours to Taxi. I am now lost and confused how you met the 550 hours (I lost 175 hours somewhere) of build other than the exhausting effort to write the check for the TWTT program. Now don't read too much into the above math. Marc Cook, Editor of Kitplanes thinks this is complaint (and Ethical) with the intent of amateur built kit manufacture. Van sells more kits, Stein sells more avionics, Abby sells more interiors, the US aviation industry sells more hardware…. life is GOOD.
You say you didn't even own a shop vac. Many builders will acquire more than $2,000 of build tools that no amount of effort will cause them to pry from their "Cold, Dying Hand". I have tried to buy some of them, boy was that an insult.
Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side in 2001 to become a legitimate "Real" kit builder. Quit my career, attended A&P school (at more than 50 years old), completed Orals and Practicals. Got my IA, became an EAA Tech Advisor, have help scores of builders and went to work for the airlines to gain even more tribal knowledge. Most - but not many OBAM builders are prideful and think they have a handle on the knowledge to maintain their pride and joy. They have a right to sell it to John Q. Public with a willingness to write a check in that pursuit. I will offer than many do little to show any DAR that they know squat as to how to maintain let alone troubleshoot, life altering mechanical issues that tend to arise. Now, don't go ballistic here….I am reading about that damned Slick Mag bulletin with my other eye. I acknowledge the system worked well until the money created the "Professional Build Assist". Oh by the way, the Professional field it is totally unregulated and uses untrained Professional worker, many are not US citizens. I just have trouble swallowing how this TWTT and hired guns are helping this avocation that led me to leave a lucrative career to pursue what my heart told me was what my Walter Mitty side wanted me to go out the door with.
The problem is not with you the builder. It is with the bastardization by the EAA, the FAA and the DARs who would sell out their neighbor to make a buck. Now let's hear more dialog on how much time, how much money and how many questions the typical OBAM kit builder answers in an Orals & Practicals Exam in front of their DAR. Wouldn't the world be perfect if the OBAM builder could match skills in maintaining his pride and joy with those damned A & Ps that I resemble in my day job.
My answer, if a Pro touches it move to the other window and make it a Primary Aircraft. If an Amateur Builder does >51.0% , tip your hat and smile… you are a Builder/Aviator of the First Order. if you can't complete a comprehensive review by the DAR on the skills to maintain it, waive goodbye to that coveted Repairman Certificate. Most DARs don't even complete a comprehensive safety inspection let alone an Oral towards granting a Repairman Certificate. It is all about review of correctly processed FAA mandated paperwork.
As an EAA Tech Advisor, I keep pinching my check, telling myself "There is no standard" for OBAM. Shut Up, Smile and help by pointing out kernels of wisdom that might lower the accident rate for the insurance pool that we all pay for. For those guys and gals with more money than smarts, I say Primary Aircraft… leave us struggling kit Builders alone. When I engage in conversations with respected Kit builders, it becomes clear they have the best interests of their family, their community and all of us at stake. Professionals please leave the arena.
Oh, did I mention there are 30 days left to make courtesy comment to the FAA on this Rule (Policy) Change.
John Cox
Do not Archive
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Finch
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 7:00 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
Wrong conclusion. In your example the aircraft owner did only 10% of the build, obviously not meeting the 51% minimum.
In the class or workshop that I took, it was 50-50, there was one pro guy per amateur owner-builder. And that was not normal, usually more amateurs than pros. Anyway we all worked like dogs the whole week. If I stopped more than 20 secs to catch my breath the pro guy was on my case! As an office worker I hadn't done so much physical work for decades.
I learned great mechanical skills about riveting, squeezing, grinding, etc., all things I really needed since I didn't know squat going in. The only thing I didn't get was time puzzling through the plans and figuring things out, there was just no time for that. We amateurs came out with real, new skills and well-built empennages. Now I am toiling in my garage with help from VAF, this list, and a couple of buddies in town who are also building RVs. But the beginning workshop was a huge help and confidence builder for guys like me, who don't have any handyman background at all. I didn't even own a shop vac!
The TWTT and its kind are clearly frauds and I don't understand how they're still in business. Why the FAA has to promulgate new amateur rules instead of enforcing the current ones is a mystery to me. Though I do think the FAA should generate new rules allowing the completely pro-built experimental aircraft but demanding very high, factory-like build standards and of course no repairman's certificate for the owner.
[quote]
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:09 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
If the owner is always working and doing 10% of the build and the other six builder assist employees (ie TWTT) do 90% of the build, but the owner was learning by watching, listening and writing a check, do I conclude that you think this qualifies?
The wide spread misunderstanding provides a solid base for the FAA to implement a new policy.
I still love those guys toiling in their garage with little outside assistance who pose questions and become the intent and integrity of this great ole abused rule.
John Cox
[/b][/b][/b][/b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List[/b]http://forums.matronics.com[/b]http://www.matronics.com/contribution [b]
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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rickpegser(at)yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject: Builder Available! |
|
|
guys:
one or two kits a year coming out of a shop that does not advertise as a builder. and claims that those kits were used for training purposes for its employees, is relativly safe. since the same fsdo will not be seeing the aircraft. and as long as primary source of income does not come from kit sales. but god alone will help you if you advertise.
rick
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kboatright1(at)comcast.ne
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: Builder Available! |
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---
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jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest
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rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: Builder Available! |
|
|
I'm really not sure what game you're playing.
I went to a workshop/build class that started with my empennage in kit form and after 6 days of instruction and building left with a nearly completed emp. I and the instructor worked about 45 hours each on the building, for a total of 90 hours--just for the emp. An interesting data point, because the other builders I've talked to that did all the emp work themselves and also of course were self-taught took several times 90 hours; 200-300 I think. Which goes to show that hours of building is very dependent on skill and prior knowledge.
You say you are confused. I say you are a fanatic: extremely devoted to a cause and disapproving, even angry, of those who do not share your level of commitment to that cause.
[quote] From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 8:13 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
Okay, I'll play Ralph.
You did (50-50) or 25.51% of the total assembly, the hired professionals did 25.49% for an exact cut of > 51.00% of the assembly. Congrats! Fabrication by the manufacturer of parts did <48.99%. Result 100.00% of the final product. Step to the window for you Lottery Winnings.
The FAA is working with manufacturer's of approved OBAM kit aircraft to establish the Fab percentage. Existing kit approvals will fall below 49.0% and may be as little as 0.5% for Plans built. Under the new proposed Policy (not a rule) the documentation of Build Assist will require a new more specific written log of Builder Assist (not just hired guns). Under the new rules, how will you reach 51.0% or better from the work that you personally do? Not what your check wrote. Not that you also might want the DAR to process your request to be called a Repairman so you can complete Conditional Inspections.
Many kits require 2000+ man/hours to complete (the RV-10 more like 2500-2750 hours). Your 25.51% would equal 550 hours spread over two weeks is 275 hours per week. You were on the floor maybe 40 hours (lets make that 60 hours per week) of the most physical work you have done in decades with only 20 seconds to catch your breath. Two weeks = 120 hours to Taxi. I am now lost and confused how you met the 550 hours (I lost 175 hours somewhere) of build other than the exhausting effort to write the check for the TWTT program. Now don't read too much into the above math. Marc Cook, Editor of Kitplanes thinks this is complaint (and Ethical) with the intent of amateur built kit manufacture. Van sells more kits, Stein sells more avionics, Abby sells more interiors, the US aviation industry sells more hardware…. life is GOOD.
You say you didn't even own a shop vac. Many builders will acquire more than $2,000 of build tools that no amount of effort will cause them to pry from their "Cold, Dying Hand". I have tried to buy some of them, boy was that an insult.
Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side in 2001 to become a legitimate "Real" kit builder. Quit my career, attended A&P school (at more than 50 years old), completed Orals and Practicals. Got my IA, became an EAA Tech Advisor, have help scores of builders and went to work for the airlines to gain even more tribal knowledge. Most - but not many OBAM builders are prideful and think they have a handle on the knowledge to maintain their pride and joy. They have a right to sell it to John Q. Public with a willingness to write a check in that pursuit. I will offer than many do little to show any DAR that they know squat as to how to maintain let alone troubleshoot, life altering mechanical issues that tend to arise. Now, don't go ballistic here….I am reading about that damned Slick Mag bulletin with my other eye. I acknowledge the system worked well until the money created the "Professional Build Assist". Oh by the way, the Professional field it is totally unregulated and uses untrained Professional worker, many are not US citizens. I just have trouble swallowing how this TWTT and hired guns are helping this avocation that led me to leave a lucrative career to pursue what my heart told me was what my Walter Mitty side wanted me to go out the door with.
The problem is not with you the builder. It is with the bastardization by the EAA, the FAA and the DARs who would sell out their neighbor to make a buck. Now let's hear more dialog on how much time, how much money and how many questions the typical OBAM kit builder answers in an Orals & Practicals Exam in front of their DAR. Wouldn't the world be perfect if the OBAM builder could match skills in maintaining his pride and joy with those damned A & Ps that I resemble in my day job.
My answer, if a Pro touches it move to the other window and make it a Primary Aircraft. If an Amateur Builder does >51.0% , tip your hat and smile… you are a Builder/Aviator of the First Order. if you can't complete a comprehensive review by the DAR on the skills to maintain it, waive goodbye to that coveted Repairman Certificate. Most DARs don't even complete a comprehensive safety inspection let alone an Oral towards granting a Repairman Certificate. It is all about review of correctly processed FAA mandated paperwork.
As an EAA Tech Advisor, I keep pinching my check, telling myself "There is no standard" for OBAM. Shut Up, Smile and help by pointing out kernels of wisdom that might lower the accident rate for the insurance pool that we all pay for. For those guys and gals with more money than smarts, I say Primary Aircraft… leave us struggling kit Builders alone. When I engage in conversations with respected Kit builders, it becomes clear they have the best interests of their family, their community and all of us at stake. Professionals please leave the arena.
Oh, did I mention there are 30 days left to make courtesy comment to the FAA on this Rule (Policy) Change.
John Cox
Do not Archive
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Finch
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 7:00 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RE: RV-List: Builder Available!
Wrong conclusion. In your example the aircraft owner did only 10% of the build, obviously not meeting the 51% minimum.
In the class or workshop that I took, it was 50-50, there was one pro guy per amateur owner-builder. And that was not normal, usually more amateurs than pros. Anyway we all worked like dogs the whole week. If I stopped more than 20 secs to catch my breath the pro guy was on my case! As an office worker I hadn't done so much physical work for decades.
I learned great mechanical skills about riveting, squeezing, grinding, etc., all things I really needed since I didn't know squat going in. The only thing I didn't get was time puzzling through the plans and figuring things out, there was just no time for that. We amateurs came out with real, new skills and well-built empennages. Now I am toiling in my garage with help from VAF, this list, and a couple of buddies in town who are also building RVs. But the beginning workshop was a huge help and confidence builder for guys like me, who don't have any handyman background at all. I didn't even own a shop vac!
The TWTT and its kind are clearly frauds and I don't understand how they're still in business. Why the FAA has to promulgate new amateur rules instead of enforcing the current ones is a mystery to me. Though I do think the FAA should generate new rules allowing the completely pro-built experimental aircraft but demanding very high, factory-like build standards and of course no repairman's certificate for the owner.
| Quote: |
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:09 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
If the owner is always working and doing 10% of the build and the other six builder assist employees (ie TWTT) do 90% of the build, but the owner was learning by watching, listening and writing a check, do I conclude that you think this qualifies?
The wide spread misunderstanding provides a solid base for the FAA to implement a new policy.
I still love those guys toiling in their garage with little outside assistance who pose questions and become the intent and integrity of this great ole abused rule.
John Cox
[/b][/b][/b][/b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
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jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: Builder Available! |
|
|
I find that a lot of A&Es and AIs are just a tad bit jealous of home
builders. Some are even down right hostile
and do not think it is right that we should be able to work on an
aircraft when they have spent a sizable
amount of time and money getting their certficates. Now this statment
really gets me going.
"Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side in 2001 to become a
legitimate "Real" kit builder. "
Like I am not a "real legitimate kit builder"?
Jerry
Ralph Finch wrote:
| Quote: | I'm really not sure what game you're playing.
I went to a workshop/build class that started with my empennage in kit
form and after 6 days of instruction and building left with a nearly
completed emp. I and the instructor worked about 45 hours each on the
building, for a total of 90 hours--just for the emp. An interesting
data point, because the other builders I've talked to that did all the
emp work themselves and also of course were self-taught took several
times 90 hours; 200-300 I think. Which goes to show that hours of
building is very dependent on skill and prior knowledge.
You say you are confused. I say you are a fanatic: extremely devoted
to a cause and disapproving, even angry, of those who do not share
your level of commitment to that cause.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 8:13 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
Okay, I'll play Ralph.
You did (50-50) or 25.51% of the total assembly, the hired
professionals did 25.49% for an exact cut of > 51.00% of the
assembly. Congrats! Fabrication by the manufacturer of parts did
<48.99%. Result 100.00% of the final product. Step to the window
for you Lottery Winnings.
The FAA is working with manufacturer's of approved OBAM kit
aircraft to establish the Fab percentage. Existing kit approvals
will fall below 49.0% and may be as little as 0.5% for Plans
built. Under the new proposed Policy (not a rule) the
documentation of Build Assist will require a new more specific
written log of Builder Assist (not just hired guns). Under the new
rules, how will you reach 51.0% or better from the work that you
personally do? Not what your check wrote. Not that you also might
want the DAR to process your request to be called a Repairman so
you can complete Conditional Inspections.
Many kits require 2000+ man/hours to complete (the RV-10 more like
2500-2750 hours). Your 25.51% would equal 550 hours spread over
two weeks is 275 hours per week. You were on the floor maybe 40
hours (lets make that 60 hours per week) of the most physical work
you have done in decades with only 20 seconds to catch your
breath. Two weeks = 120 hours to Taxi. I am now lost and confused
how you met the 550 hours (I lost 175 hours somewhere) of build
other than the exhausting effort to write the check for the TWTT
program. Now don't read too much into the above math. Marc Cook,
Editor of Kitplanes thinks this is complaint (and Ethical) with
the intent of amateur built kit manufacture. Van sells more kits,
Stein sells more avionics, Abby sells more interiors, the US
aviation industry sells more hardware…. life is GOOD.
You say you didn't even own a shop vac. Many builders will acquire
more than $2,000 of build tools that no amount of effort will
cause them to pry from their "Cold, Dying Hand". I have tried to
buy some of them, boy was that an insult.
Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side in 2001 to
become a legitimate "Real" kit builder. Quit my career, attended
A&P school (at more than 50 years old), completed Orals and
Practicals. Got my IA, became an EAA Tech Advisor, have help
scores of builders and went to work for the airlines to gain even
more tribal knowledge. Most - but not many OBAM builders are
prideful and think they have a handle on the knowledge to maintain
their pride and joy. They have a right to sell it to John Q.
Public with a willingness to write a check in that pursuit. I will
offer than many do little to show any DAR that they know squat as
to how to maintain let alone troubleshoot, life altering
mechanical issues that tend to arise. Now, don't go ballistic
here….I am reading about that damned Slick Mag bulletin with my
other eye. I acknowledge the system worked well until the money
created the "Professional Build Assist". Oh by the way, the
Professional field it is totally unregulated and uses untrained
Professional worker, many are not US citizens. I just have trouble
swallowing how this TWTT and hired guns are helping this avocation
that led me to leave a lucrative career to pursue what my heart
told me was what my Walter Mitty side wanted me to go out the door
with.
The problem is not with you the builder. It is with the
bastardization by the EAA, the FAA and the DARs who would sell out
their neighbor to make a buck. Now let's hear more dialog on how
much time, how much money and how many questions the typical OBAM
kit builder answers in an Orals & Practicals Exam in front of
their DAR. Wouldn't the world be perfect if the OBAM builder could
match skills in maintaining his pride and joy with those damned A
& Ps that I resemble in my day job.
My answer, if a Pro touches it move to the other window and make
it a Primary Aircraft. If an Amateur Builder does >51.0% , tip
your hat and smile… you are a Builder/Aviator of the First Order.
if you can't complete a comprehensive review by the DAR on the
skills to maintain it, waive goodbye to that coveted Repairman
Certificate. Most DARs don't even complete a comprehensive safety
inspection let alone an Oral towards granting a Repairman
Certificate. It is all about review of correctly processed FAA
mandated paperwork.
As an EAA Tech Advisor, I keep pinching my check, telling myself
"There is no standard" for OBAM. Shut Up, Smile and help by
pointing out kernels of wisdom that might lower the accident rate
for the insurance pool that we all pay for. For those guys and
gals with more money than smarts, I say Primary Aircraft… leave us
struggling kit Builders alone. When I engage in conversations with
respected Kit builders, it becomes clear they have the best
interests of their family, their community and all of us at stake.
Professionals please leave the arena.
Oh, did I mention there are 30 days left to make courtesy comment
to the FAA on this Rule (Policy) Change.
John Cox
Do not Archive
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Finch
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 7:00 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
Wrong conclusion. In your example the aircraft owner did only 10%
of the build, obviously not meeting the 51% minimum.
In the class or workshop that I took, it was 50-50, there was one
pro guy per amateur owner-builder. And that was not normal,
usually more amateurs than pros. Anyway we all worked like dogs
the whole week. If I stopped more than 20 secs to catch my breath
the pro guy was on my case! As an office worker I hadn't done so
much physical work for decades.
I learned great mechanical skills about riveting, squeezing,
grinding, etc., all things I really needed since I didn't know
squat going in. The only thing I didn't get was time puzzling
through the plans and figuring things out, there was just no time
for that. We amateurs came out with real, new skills and
well-built empennages. Now I am toiling in my garage with help
from VAF, this list, and a couple of buddies in town who are also
building RVs. But the beginning workshop was a huge help and
confidence builder for guys like me, who don't have any handyman
background at all. I didn't even own a shop vac!
The TWTT and its kind are clearly frauds and I don't understand
how they're still in business. Why the FAA has to promulgate new
amateur rules instead of enforcing the current ones is a mystery
to me. Though I do think the FAA should generate new rules
allowing the completely pro-built experimental aircraft but
demanding very high, factory-like build standards and of course no
repairman's certificate for the owner.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:09 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
If the owner is always working and doing 10% of the build and
the other six builder assist employees (ie TWTT) do 90% of the
build, but the owner was learning by watching, listening and
writing a check, do I conclude that you think this qualifies?
The wide spread misunderstanding provides a solid base for the
FAA to implement a new policy.
I still love those guys toiling in their garage with little
outside assistance who pose questions and become the intent
and integrity of this great ole abused rule.
John Cox
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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dmaib@me.com
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: Builder Available! |
|
|
Ralph, you hit the nail square on the head!
David Maib
do not archive
On Aug 30, 2008, at 10:37 PM, Ralph Finch wrote:I'm really not sure what game you're playing.
I went to a workshop/build class that started with my empennage in kit form and after 6 days of instruction and building left with a nearly completed emp. I and the instructor worked about 45 hours each on the building, for a total of 90 hours--just for the emp. An interesting data point, because the other builders I've talked to that did all the emp work themselves and also of course were self-taught took several times 90 hours; 200-300 I think. Which goes to show that hours of building is very dependent on skill and prior knowledge.
You say you are confused. I say you are a fanatic: extremely devoted to a cause and disapproving, even angry, of those who do not share your level of commitment to that cause.
| Quote: | From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 8:13 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
Okay, I'll play Ralph.
You did (50-50) or 25.51% of the total assembly, the hired professionals did 25.49% for an exact cut of > 51.00% of the assembly. Congrats! Fabrication by the manufacturer of parts did <48.99%. Result 100.00% of the final product. Step to the window for you Lottery Winnings.
The FAA is working with manufacturer's of approved OBAM kit aircraft to establish the Fab percentage. Existing kit approvals will fall below 49.0% and may be as little as 0.5% for Plans built. Under the new proposed Policy (not a rule) the documentation of Build Assist will require a new more specific written log of Builder Assist (not just hired guns). Under the new rules, how will you reach 51.0% or better from the work that you personally do? Not what your check wrote. Not that you also might want the DAR to process your request to be called a Repairman so you can complete Conditional Inspections.
Many kits require 2000+ man/hours to complete (the RV-10 more like 2500-2750 hours). Your 25.51% would equal 550 hours spread over two weeks is 275 hours per week. You were on the floor maybe 40 hours (lets make that 60 hours per week) of the most physical work you have done in decades with only 20 seconds to catch your breath. Two weeks = 120 hours to Taxi. I am now lost and confused how you met the 550 hours (I lost 175 hours somewhere) of build other than the exhausting effort to write the check for the TWTT program. Now don't read too much into the above math. Marc Cook, Editor of Kitplanes thinks this is complaint (and Ethical) with the intent of amateur built kit manufacture. Van sells more kits, Stein sells more avionics, Abby sells more interiors, the US aviation industry sells more hardware…. life is GOOD.
You say you didn't even own a shop vac. Many builders will acquire more than $2,000 of build tools that no amount of effort will cause them to pry from their "Cold, Dying Hand". I have tried to buy some of them, boy was that an insult.
Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side in 2001 to become a legitimate "Real" kit builder. Quit my career, attended A&P school (at more than 50 years old), completed Orals and Practicals. Got my IA, became an EAA Tech Advisor, have help scores of builders and went to work for the airlines to gain even more tribal knowledge. Most - but not many OBAM builders are prideful and think they have a handle on the knowledge to maintain their pride and joy. They have a right to sell it to John Q. Public with a willingness to write a check in that pursuit. I will offer than many do little to show any DAR that they know squat as to how to maintain let alone troubleshoot, life altering mechanical issues that tend to arise. Now, don't go ballistic here….I am reading about that damned Slick Mag bulletin with my other eye. I acknowledge the system worked well until the money created the "Professional Build Assist". Oh by the way, the Professional field it is totally unregulated and uses untrained Professional worker, many are not US citizens. I just have trouble swallowing how this TWTT and hired guns are helping this avocation that led me to leave a lucrative career to pursue what my heart told me was what my Walter Mitty side wanted me to go out the door with.
The problem is not with you the builder. It is with the bastardization by the EAA, the FAA and the DARs who would sell out their neighbor to make a buck. Now let's hear more dialog on how much time, how much money and how many questions the typical OBAM kit builder answers in an Orals & Practicals Exam in front of their DAR. Wouldn't the world be perfect if the OBAM builder could match skills in maintaining his pride and joy with those damned A & Ps that I resemble in my day job.
My answer, if a Pro touches it move to the other window and make it a Primary Aircraft. If an Amateur Builder does >51.0% , tip your hat and smile… you are a Builder/Aviator of the First Order. if you can't complete a comprehensive review by the DAR on the skills to maintain it, waive goodbye to that coveted Repairman Certificate. Most DARs don't even complete a comprehensive safety inspection let alone an Oral towards granting a Repairman Certificate. It is all about review of correctly processed FAA mandated paperwork.
As an EAA Tech Advisor, I keep pinching my check, telling myself "There is no standard" for OBAM. Shut Up, Smile and help by pointing out kernels of wisdom that might lower the accident rate for the insurance pool that we all pay for. For those guys and gals with more money than smarts, I say Primary Aircraft… leave us struggling kit Builders alone. When I engage in conversations with respected Kit builders, it becomes clear they have the best interests of their family, their community and all of us at stake. Professionals please leave the arena.
Oh, did I mention there are 30 days left to make courtesy comment to the FAA on this Rule (Policy) Change.
John Cox
Do not Archive
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ralph Finch
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 7:00 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
Wrong conclusion. In your example the aircraft owner did only 10% of the build, obviously not meeting the 51% minimum.
In the class or workshop that I took, it was 50-50, there was one pro guy per amateur owner-builder. And that was not normal, usually more amateurs than pros. Anyway we all worked like dogs the whole week. If I stopped more than 20 secs to catch my breath the pro guy was on my case! As an office worker I hadn't done so much physical work for decades.
I learned great mechanical skills about riveting, squeezing, grinding, etc., all things I really needed since I didn't know squat going in. The only thing I didn't get was time puzzling through the plans and figuring things out, there was just no time for that. We amateurs came out with real, new skills and well-built empennages. Now I am toiling in my garage with help from VAF, this list, and a couple of buddies in town who are also building RVs. But the beginning workshop was a huge help and confidence builder for guys like me, who don't have any handyman background at all. I didn't even own a shop vac!
The TWTT and its kind are clearly frauds and I don't understand how they're still in business. Why the FAA has to promulgate new amateur rules instead of enforcing the current ones is a mystery to me. Though I do think the FAA should generate new rules allowing the completely pro-built experimental aircraft but demanding very high, factory-like build standards and of course no repairman's certificate for the owner.
| Quote: |
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:09 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
If the owner is always working and doing 10% of the build and the other six builder assist employees (ie TWTT) do 90% of the build, but the owner was learning by watching, listening and writing a check, do I conclude that you think this qualifies?
The wide spread misunderstanding provides a solid base for the FAA to implement a new policy.
I still love those guys toiling in their garage with little outside assistance who pose questions and become the intent and integrity of this great ole abused rule.
John Cox
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
0123456789
0 |
1
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
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_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL |
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: Builder Available! |
|
|
John speaks from real involvement and concern for where the FAA will
take the 51 % rule. For sure it will require more fabrication.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the Sport Air classes, nor
the other initial builder assist. Looked long and hard at them myself.
Big difference getting help doing the empennage, where there is more
teaching than someone doing the work for you. You are paying for
learning, in the spirit of the rule, for your education and recreation,
as opposed to the two weeks to taxi programs where the client does maybe
150 hours of work on the completed aircraft, that we all know takes a
minimum of something over 1000 hours, and probably a lot over that
figure. Very different from what you did.
I don't know what I will have in empennage yet, but for RV10 vert stab
it will probably come in around 20 hours.
Kelly
RV10
A&P/IA
PS, contrary to other assertions, no jealousy of other unlicensed
builders. I'm doing it for my enjoyment, in my retirement, doing EAA
Tech Counselor for those that want the advice, ignoring the rest. Just
be grateful that Van's kits have the 51 percent approval. Any new
approvals will require more work.
Ralph Finch wrote:
| Quote: | I'm really not sure what game you're playing.
I went to a workshop/build class that started with my empennage in kit
form and after 6 days of instruction and building left with a nearly
completed emp. I and the instructor worked about 45 hours each on the
building, for a total of 90 hours--just for the emp. An interesting
data point, because the other builders I've talked to that did all the
emp work themselves and also of course were self-taught took several
times 90 hours; 200-300 I think. Which goes to show that hours of
building is very dependent on skill and prior knowledge.
You say you are confused. I say you are a fanatic: extremely devoted
to a cause and disapproving, even angry, of those who do not share
your level of commitment to that cause.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *John Cox
*Sent:* Friday, August 29, 2008 8:13 PM
*To:* rv-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* RE: RE: Builder Available!
Okay, I'll play Ralph.
You did (50-50) or 25.51% of the total assembly, the hired
professionals did 25.49% for an exact cut of > 51.00% of the
assembly. Congrats! Fabrication by the manufacturer of parts did
<48.99%. Result 100.00% of the final product. Step to the window
for you Lottery Winnings.
The FAA is working with manufacturer's of approved OBAM kit
aircraft to establish the Fab percentage. Existing kit approvals
will fall below 49.0% and may be as little as 0.5% for Plans
built. Under the new proposed Policy (not a rule) the
documentation of Build Assist will require a new more specific
written log of Builder Assist (not just hired guns). Under the new
rules, how will you reach 51.0% or better from the work that you
personally do? Not what your check wrote. Not that you also might
want the DAR to process your request to be called a Repairman so
you can complete Conditional Inspections.
Many kits require 2000+ man/hours to complete (the RV-10 more like
2500-2750 hours). Your 25.51% would equal 550 hours spread over
two weeks is 275 hours per week. You were on the floor maybe 40
hours (lets make that 60 hours per week) of the most physical work
you have done in decades with only 20 seconds to catch your
breath. Two weeks = 120 hours to Taxi. I am now lost and confused
how you met the 550 hours (I lost 175 hours somewhere) of build
other than the exhausting effort to write the check for the TWTT
program. Now don't read too much into the above math. Marc Cook,
Editor of Kitplanes thinks this is complaint (and Ethical) with
the intent of amateur built kit manufacture. Van sells more kits,
Stein sells more avionics, Abby sells more interiors, the US
aviation industry sells more hardware…. life is GOOD.
You say you didn't even own a shop vac. Many builders will acquire
more than $2,000 of build tools that no amount of effort will
cause them to pry from their "Cold, Dying Hand". I have tried to
buy some of them, boy was that an insult.
Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side in 2001 to
become a legitimate "Real" kit builder. Quit my career, attended
A&P school (at more than 50 years old), completed Orals and
Practicals. Got my IA, became an EAA Tech Advisor, have help
scores of builders and went to work for the airlines to gain even
more tribal knowledge. Most - but not many OBAM builders are
prideful and think they have a handle on the knowledge to maintain
their pride and joy. They have a right to sell it to John Q.
Public with a willingness to write a check in that pursuit. I will
offer than many do little to show any DAR that they know squat as
to how to maintain let alone troubleshoot, life altering
mechanical issues that tend to arise. Now, don't go ballistic
here….I am reading about that damned Slick Mag bulletin with my
other eye. I acknowledge the system worked well until the money
created the "Professional Build Assist". Oh by the way, the
Professional field it is totally unregulated and uses untrained
Professional worker, many are not US citizens. I just have trouble
swallowing how this TWTT and hired guns are helping this avocation
that led me to leave a lucrative career to pursue what my heart
told me was what my Walter Mitty side wanted me to go out the door
with.
The problem is not with you the builder. It is with the
bastardization by the EAA, the FAA and the DARs who would sell out
their neighbor to make a buck. Now let's hear more dialog on how
much time, how much money and how many questions the typical OBAM
kit builder answers in an Orals & Practicals Exam in front of
their DAR. Wouldn't the world be perfect if the OBAM builder could
match skills in maintaining his pride and joy with those damned A
& Ps that I resemble in my day job.
My answer, if a Pro touches it move to the other window and make
it a Primary Aircraft. If an Amateur Builder does >51.0% , tip
your hat and smile… you are a Builder/Aviator of the First Order.
if you can't complete a comprehensive review by the DAR on the
skills to maintain it, waive goodbye to that coveted Repairman
Certificate. Most DARs don't even complete a comprehensive safety
inspection let alone an Oral towards granting a Repairman
Certificate. It is all about review of correctly processed FAA
mandated paperwork.
As an EAA Tech Advisor, I keep pinching my check, telling myself
"There is no standard" for OBAM. Shut Up, Smile and help by
pointing out kernels of wisdom that might lower the accident rate
for the insurance pool that we all pay for. For those guys and
gals with more money than smarts, I say Primary Aircraft… leave us
struggling kit _Builders _alone. When I engage in conversations
with respected Kit builders, it becomes clear they have the best
interests of their family, their community and all of us at stake.
Professionals please leave the arena.
Oh, did I mention there are 30 days left to make courtesy comment
to the FAA on this Rule (Policy) Change.
John Cox
Do not Archive
*From:* owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Ralph Finch
*Sent:* Friday, August 29, 2008 7:00 PM
*To:* rv-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* RE: RE: Builder Available!
Wrong conclusion. In your example the aircraft owner did only 10%
of the build, obviously not meeting the 51% minimum.
In the class or workshop that I took, it was 50-50, there was one
pro guy per amateur owner-builder. And that was not normal,
usually more amateurs than pros. Anyway we all worked like dogs
the whole week. If I stopped more than 20 secs to catch my breath
the pro guy was on my case! As an office worker I hadn't done so
much physical work for decades.
I learned great mechanical skills about riveting, squeezing,
grinding, etc., all things I really needed since I didn't know
squat going in. The only thing I didn't get was time puzzling
through the plans and figuring things out, there was just no time
for that. We amateurs came out with real, new skills and
well-built empennages. Now I am toiling in my garage with help
from VAF, this list, and a couple of buddies in town who are also
building RVs. But the beginning workshop was a huge help and
confidence builder for guys like me, who don't have any handyman
background at all. I didn't even own a shop vac!
The TWTT and its kind are clearly frauds and I don't understand
how they're still in business. Why the FAA has to promulgate new
amateur rules instead of enforcing the current ones is a mystery
to me. Though I do think the FAA should generate new rules
allowing the completely pro-built experimental aircraft but
demanding very high, factory-like build standards and of course no
repairman's certificate for the owner.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
*John Cox
*Sent:* Friday, August 29, 2008 6:09 PM
*To:* rv-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* RE: RE: Builder Available!
If the owner is always working and doing 10% of the build and
the other six builder assist employees (ie TWTT) do 90% of the
build, but the owner was learning by watching, listening and
writing a check, do I conclude that you think this qualifies?
The wide spread misunderstanding provides a solid base for the
FAA to implement a new policy.
I still love those guys toiling in their garage with little
outside assistance who pose questions and become the intent
and integrity of this great ole abused rule.
John Cox
* *
* *
**
**
*http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List*
**
**
*http://forums.matronics.com*
**
**
**
*http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
**
* *
*
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
*
*
*
|
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rickpegser(at)yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: Builder Available! |
|
|
jerry
i assume that you are not from the states using a+e, but if you are, look at it from my point of view. if i have to sign off the aircraft, it has to follow the rules, and since i have no rules that tell me autozone parts are ok or not for flight i am stuck in the possition of approving a flying bar stool for flight. i think the faa screwed the pooch here. Second owner on an experimental aicraft puts the i/a in an almost imposible situation. we are not jealous, we just want to keep our tickets. and not get sued.
rick
--- On Sat, 8/30/08, Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net> wrote:
| Quote: | From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Builder Available!
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 9:20 PM
<jsflyrv(at)verizon.net>
I find that a lot of A&Es and AIs are just a tad bit
jealous of home
builders. Some are even down right hostile
and do not think it is right that we should be able to work
on an
aircraft when they have spent a sizable
amount of time and money getting their certficates. Now
this statment
really gets me going.
"Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side in
2001 to become a
legitimate "Real" kit builder. "
Like I am not a "real legitimate kit builder"?
Jerry
Ralph Finch wrote:
> I'm really not sure what game you're playing.
> I went to a workshop/build class that started with my
empennage in kit
> form and after 6 days of instruction and building left
with a nearly
> completed emp. I and the instructor worked about 45
hours each on the
> building, for a total of 90 hours--just for the emp.
An interesting
> data point, because the other builders I've talked
to that did all the
> emp work themselves and also of course were
self-taught took several
> times 90 hours; 200-300 I think. Which goes to show
that hours of
> building is very dependent on skill and prior
knowledge.
> You say you are confused. I say you are a fanatic:
extremely devoted
> to a cause and disapproving, even angry, of those who
do not share
> your level of commitment to that cause.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
Behalf Of John Cox
> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 8:13 PM
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
>
> Okay, I'll play Ralph.
>
> You did (50-50) or 25.51% of the total assembly,
the hired
> professionals did 25.49% for an exact cut of >
51.00% of the
> assembly. Congrats! Fabrication by the
manufacturer of parts did
> <48.99%. Result 100.00% of the final product.
Step to the window
> for you Lottery Winnings.
>
> The FAA is working with manufacturer's of
approved OBAM kit
> aircraft to establish the Fab percentage. Existing
kit approvals
> will fall below 49.0% and may be as little as 0.5%
for Plans
> built. Under the new proposed Policy (not a rule)
the
> documentation of Build Assist will require a new
more specific
> written log of Builder Assist (not just hired
guns). Under the new
> rules, how will you reach 51.0% or better from the
work that you
> personally do? Not what your check wrote. Not that
you also might
> want the DAR to process your request to be called
a Repairman so
> you can complete Conditional Inspections.
>
> Many kits require 2000+ man/hours to complete (the
RV-10 more like
> 2500-2750 hours). Your 25.51% would equal 550
hours spread over
> two weeks is 275 hours per week. You were on the
floor maybe 40
> hours (lets make that 60 hours per week) of the
most physical work
> you have done in decades with only 20 seconds to
catch your
> breath. Two weeks = 120 hours to Taxi. I am now
lost and confused
> how you met the 550 hours (I lost 175 hours
somewhere) of build
> other than the exhausting effort to write the
check for the TWTT
> program. Now don't read too much into the
above math. Marc Cook,
> Editor of Kitplanes thinks this is complaint (and
Ethical) with
> the intent of amateur built kit manufacture. Van
sells more kits,
> Stein sells more avionics, Abby sells more
interiors, the US
> aviation industry sells more hardware…. life is
GOOD.
>
> You say you didn't even own a shop vac. Many
builders will acquire
> more than $2,000 of build tools that no amount of
effort will
> cause them to pry from their "Cold, Dying
Hand". I have tried to
> buy some of them, boy was that an insult.
>
> Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side
in 2001 to
> become a legitimate "Real" kit builder.
Quit my career, attended
> A&P school (at more than 50 years old),
completed Orals and
> Practicals. Got my IA, became an EAA Tech Advisor,
have help
> scores of builders and went to work for the
airlines to gain even
> more tribal knowledge. Most - but not many OBAM
builders are
> prideful and think they have a handle on the
knowledge to maintain
> their pride and joy. They have a right to sell it
to John Q.
> Public with a willingness to write a check in that
pursuit. I will
> offer than many do little to show any DAR that
they know squat as
> to how to maintain let alone troubleshoot, life
altering
> mechanical issues that tend to arise. Now,
don't go ballistic
> here….I am reading about that damned Slick Mag
bulletin with my
> other eye. I acknowledge the system worked well
until the money
> created the "Professional Build Assist".
Oh by the way, the
> Professional field it is totally unregulated and
uses untrained
> Professional worker, many are not US citizens. I
just have trouble
> swallowing how this TWTT and hired guns are
helping this avocation
> that led me to leave a lucrative career to pursue
what my heart
> told me was what my Walter Mitty side wanted me to
go out the door
> with.
>
> The problem is not with you the builder. It is
with the
> bastardization by the EAA, the FAA and the DARs
who would sell out
> their neighbor to make a buck. Now let's hear
more dialog on how
> much time, how much money and how many questions
the typical OBAM
> kit builder answers in an Orals & Practicals
Exam in front of
> their DAR. Wouldn't the world be perfect if
the OBAM builder could
> match skills in maintaining his pride and joy with
those damned A
> & Ps that I resemble in my day job.
>
> My answer, if a Pro touches it move to the other
window and make
> it a Primary Aircraft. If an Amateur Builder does
>51.0% , tip
> your hat and smile… you are a Builder/Aviator of
the First Order.
> if you can't complete a comprehensive review
by the DAR on the
> skills to maintain it, waive goodbye to that
coveted Repairman
> Certificate. Most DARs don't even complete a
comprehensive safety
> inspection let alone an Oral towards granting a
Repairman
> Certificate. It is all about review of correctly
processed FAA
> mandated paperwork.
>
> As an EAA Tech Advisor, I keep pinching my check,
telling myself
> "There is no standard" for OBAM. Shut
Up, Smile and help by
> pointing out kernels of wisdom that might lower
the accident rate
> for the insurance pool that we all pay for. For
those guys and
> gals with more money than smarts, I say Primary
Aircraft… leave us
> struggling kit Builders alone. When I engage in
conversations with
> respected Kit builders, it becomes clear they have
the best
> interests of their family, their community and all
of us at stake.
> Professionals please leave the arena.
>
> Oh, did I mention there are 30 days left to make
courtesy comment
> to the FAA on this Rule (Policy) Change.
>
> John Cox
>
> Do not Archive
>
> From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
Behalf Of Ralph Finch
> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 7:00 PM
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
>
> Wrong conclusion. In your example the aircraft
owner did only 10%
> of the build, obviously not meeting the 51%
minimum.
>
> In the class or workshop that I took, it was
50-50, there was one
> pro guy per amateur owner-builder. And that was
not normal,
> usually more amateurs than pros. Anyway we all
worked like dogs
> the whole week. If I stopped more than 20 secs to
catch my breath
> the pro guy was on my case! As an office worker I
hadn't done so
> much physical work for decades.
>
> I learned great mechanical skills about riveting,
squeezing,
> grinding, etc., all things I really needed since I
didn't know
> squat going in. The only thing I didn't get
was time puzzling
> through the plans and figuring things out, there
was just no time
> for that. We amateurs came out with real, new
skills and
> well-built empennages. Now I am toiling in my
garage with help
> from VAF, this list, and a couple of buddies in
town who are also
> building RVs. But the beginning workshop was a
huge help and
> confidence builder for guys like me, who don't
have any handyman
> background at all. I didn't even own a shop
vac!
>
> The TWTT and its kind are clearly frauds and I
don't understand
> how they're still in business. Why the FAA has
to promulgate new
> amateur rules instead of enforcing the current
ones is a mystery
> to me. Though I do think the FAA should generate
new rules
> allowing the completely pro-built experimental
aircraft but
> demanding very high, factory-like build standards
and of course no
> repairman's certificate for the owner.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
Behalf Of John Cox
> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:09 PM
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
>
> If the owner is always working and doing 10%
of the build and
> the other six builder assist employees (ie
TWTT) do 90% of the
> build, but the owner was learning by watching,
listening and
> writing a check, do I conclude that you think
this qualifies?
>
> The wide spread misunderstanding provides a
solid base for the
> FAA to implement a new policy.
>
> I still love those guys toiling in their
garage with little
> outside assistance who pose questions and
become the intent
> and integrity of this great ole abused rule.
>
> John Cox
>
>
>
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>
>http://forums.matronics.com
>
>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
>
>
>
|
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject: Builder Available! |
|
|
Picky picky picky would you have rather I had said A&P?
do not archive
RICHARD MILLER wrote:
| Quote: |
jerry
i assume that you are not from the states using a+e, but if you are, look at it from my point of view. if i have to sign off the aircraft, it has to follow the rules, and since i have no rules that tell me autozone parts are ok or not for flight i am stuck in the possition of approving a flying bar stool for flight. i think the faa screwed the pooch here. Second owner on an experimental aicraft puts the i/a in an almost imposible situation. we are not jealous, we just want to keep our tickets. and not get sued.
rick
--- On Sat, 8/30/08, Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net> wrote:
>From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net>
>Subject: Re: Builder Available!
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 9:20 PM
>
><jsflyrv(at)verizon.net>
>
>I find that a lot of A&Es and AIs are just a tad bit
>jealous of home
>builders. Some are even down right hostile
>and do not think it is right that we should be able to work
>on an
>aircraft when they have spent a sizable
>amount of time and money getting their certficates. Now
>this statment
>really gets me going.
>
>"Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side in
>2001 to become a
>legitimate "Real" kit builder. "
>
>Like I am not a "real legitimate kit builder"?
>
>Jerry
>
>
>Ralph Finch wrote:
>
>
>
>>I'm really not sure what game you're playing.
>>I went to a workshop/build class that started with my
>>
>>
>empennage in kit
>
>
>>form and after 6 days of instruction and building left
>>
>>
>with a nearly
>
>
>>completed emp. I and the instructor worked about 45
>>
>>
>hours each on the
>
>
>>building, for a total of 90 hours--just for the emp.
>>
>>
>An interesting
>
>
>>data point, because the other builders I've talked
>>
>>
>to that did all the
>
>
>>emp work themselves and also of course were
>>
>>
>self-taught took several
>
>
>>times 90 hours; 200-300 I think. Which goes to show
>>
>>
>that hours of
>
>
>>building is very dependent on skill and prior
>>
>>
>knowledge.
>
>
>>You say you are confused. I say you are a fanatic:
>>
>>
>extremely devoted
>
>
>>to a cause and disapproving, even angry, of those who
>>
>>
>do not share
>
>
>>your level of commitment to that cause.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>> From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
>>
>>
>Behalf Of John Cox
>
>
>> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 8:13 PM
>> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
>>
>> Okay, I'll play Ralph.
>>
>> You did (50-50) or 25.51% of the total assembly,
>>
>>
>the hired
>
>
>> professionals did 25.49% for an exact cut of >
>>
>>
>51.00% of the
>
>
>> assembly. Congrats! Fabrication by the
>>
>>
>manufacturer of parts did
>
>
>> <48.99%. Result 100.00% of the final product.
>>
>>
>Step to the window
>
>
>> for you Lottery Winnings.
>>
>> The FAA is working with manufacturer's of
>>
>>
>approved OBAM kit
>
>
>> aircraft to establish the Fab percentage. Existing
>>
>>
>kit approvals
>
>
>> will fall below 49.0% and may be as little as 0.5%
>>
>>
>for Plans
>
>
>> built. Under the new proposed Policy (not a rule)
>>
>>
>the
>
>
>> documentation of Build Assist will require a new
>>
>>
>more specific
>
>
>> written log of Builder Assist (not just hired
>>
>>
>guns). Under the new
>
>
>> rules, how will you reach 51.0% or better from the
>>
>>
>work that you
>
>
>> personally do? Not what your check wrote. Not that
>>
>>
>you also might
>
>
>> want the DAR to process your request to be called
>>
>>
>a Repairman so
>
>
>> you can complete Conditional Inspections.
>>
>> Many kits require 2000+ man/hours to complete (the
>>
>>
>RV-10 more like
>
>
>> 2500-2750 hours). Your 25.51% would equal 550
>>
>>
>hours spread over
>
>
>> two weeks is 275 hours per week. You were on the
>>
>>
>floor maybe 40
>
>
>> hours (lets make that 60 hours per week) of the
>>
>>
>most physical work
>
>
>> you have done in decades with only 20 seconds to
>>
>>
>catch your
>
>
>> breath. Two weeks = 120 hours to Taxi. I am now
>>
>>
>lost and confused
>
>
>> how you met the 550 hours (I lost 175 hours
>>
>>
>somewhere) of build
>
>
>> other than the exhausting effort to write the
>>
>>
>check for the TWTT
>
>
>> program. Now don't read too much into the
>>
>>
>above math. Marc Cook,
>
>
>> Editor of Kitplanes thinks this is complaint (and
>>
>>
>Ethical) with
>
>
>> the intent of amateur built kit manufacture. Van
>>
>>
>sells more kits,
>
>
>> Stein sells more avionics, Abby sells more
>>
>>
>interiors, the US
>
>
>> aviation industry sells more hardware…. life is
>>
>>
>GOOD.
>
>
>> You say you didn't even own a shop vac. Many
>>
>>
>builders will acquire
>
>
>> more than $2,000 of build tools that no amount of
>>
>>
>effort will
>
>
>> cause them to pry from their "Cold, Dying
>>
>>
>Hand". I have tried to
>
>
>> buy some of them, boy was that an insult.
>>
>> Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side
>>
>>
>in 2001 to
>
>
>> become a legitimate "Real" kit builder.
>>
>>
>Quit my career, attended
>
>
>> A&P school (at more than 50 years old),
>>
>>
>completed Orals and
>
>
>> Practicals. Got my IA, became an EAA Tech Advisor,
>>
>>
>have help
>
>
>> scores of builders and went to work for the
>>
>>
>airlines to gain even
>
>
>> more tribal knowledge. Most - but not many OBAM
>>
>>
>builders are
>
>
>> prideful and think they have a handle on the
>>
>>
>knowledge to maintain
>
>
>> their pride and joy. They have a right to sell it
>>
>>
>to John Q.
>
>
>> Public with a willingness to write a check in that
>>
>>
>pursuit. I will
>
>
>> offer than many do little to show any DAR that
>>
>>
>they know squat as
>
>
>> to how to maintain let alone troubleshoot, life
>>
>>
>altering
>
>
>> mechanical issues that tend to arise. Now,
>>
>>
>don't go ballistic
>
>
>> here….I am reading about that damned Slick Mag
>>
>>
>bulletin with my
>
>
>> other eye. I acknowledge the system worked well
>>
>>
>until the money
>
>
>> created the "Professional Build Assist".
>>
>>
>Oh by the way, the
>
>
>> Professional field it is totally unregulated and
>>
>>
>uses untrained
>
>
>> Professional worker, many are not US citizens. I
>>
>>
>just have trouble
>
>
>> swallowing how this TWTT and hired guns are
>>
>>
>helping this avocation
>
>
>> that led me to leave a lucrative career to pursue
>>
>>
>what my heart
>
>
>> told me was what my Walter Mitty side wanted me to
>>
>>
>go out the door
>
>
>> with.
>>
>> The problem is not with you the builder. It is
>>
>>
>with the
>
>
>> bastardization by the EAA, the FAA and the DARs
>>
>>
>who would sell out
>
>
>> their neighbor to make a buck. Now let's hear
>>
>>
>more dialog on how
>
>
>> much time, how much money and how many questions
>>
>>
>the typical OBAM
>
>
>> kit builder answers in an Orals & Practicals
>>
>>
>Exam in front of
>
>
>> their DAR. Wouldn't the world be perfect if
>>
>>
>the OBAM builder could
>
>
>> match skills in maintaining his pride and joy with
>>
>>
>those damned A
>
>
>> & Ps that I resemble in my day job.
>>
>> My answer, if a Pro touches it move to the other
>>
>>
>window and make
>
>
>> it a Primary Aircraft. If an Amateur Builder does
>>51.0% , tip
>> your hat and smile… you are a Builder/Aviator of
>>
>>
>the First Order.
>
>
>> if you can't complete a comprehensive review
>>
>>
>by the DAR on the
>
>
>> skills to maintain it, waive goodbye to that
>>
>>
>coveted Repairman
>
>
>> Certificate. Most DARs don't even complete a
>>
>>
>comprehensive safety
>
>
>> inspection let alone an Oral towards granting a
>>
>>
>Repairman
>
>
>> Certificate. It is all about review of correctly
>>
>>
>processed FAA
>
>
>> mandated paperwork.
>>
>> As an EAA Tech Advisor, I keep pinching my check,
>>
>>
>telling myself
>
>
>> "There is no standard" for OBAM. Shut
>>
>>
>Up, Smile and help by
>
>
>> pointing out kernels of wisdom that might lower
>>
>>
>the accident rate
>
>
>> for the insurance pool that we all pay for. For
>>
>>
>those guys and
>
>
>> gals with more money than smarts, I say Primary
>>
>>
>Aircraft… leave us
>
>
>> struggling kit Builders alone. When I engage in
>>
>>
>conversations with
>
>
>> respected Kit builders, it becomes clear they have
>>
>>
>the best
>
>
>> interests of their family, their community and all
>>
>>
>of us at stake.
>
>
>> Professionals please leave the arena.
>>
>> Oh, did I mention there are 30 days left to make
>>
>>
>courtesy comment
>
>
>> to the FAA on this Rule (Policy) Change.
>>
>> John Cox
>>
>> Do not Archive
>>
>> From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
>>
>>
>Behalf Of Ralph Finch
>
>
>> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 7:00 PM
>> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
>>
>> Wrong conclusion. In your example the aircraft
>>
>>
>owner did only 10%
>
>
>> of the build, obviously not meeting the 51%
>>
>>
>minimum.
>
>
>> In the class or workshop that I took, it was
>>
>>
>50-50, there was one
>
>
>> pro guy per amateur owner-builder. And that was
>>
>>
>not normal,
>
>
>> usually more amateurs than pros. Anyway we all
>>
>>
>worked like dogs
>
>
>> the whole week. If I stopped more than 20 secs to
>>
>>
>catch my breath
>
>
>> the pro guy was on my case! As an office worker I
>>
>>
>hadn't done so
>
>
>> much physical work for decades.
>>
>> I learned great mechanical skills about riveting,
>>
>>
>squeezing,
>
>
>> grinding, etc., all things I really needed since I
>>
>>
>didn't know
>
>
>> squat going in. The only thing I didn't get
>>
>>
>was time puzzling
>
>
>> through the plans and figuring things out, there
>>
>>
>was just no time
>
>
>> for that. We amateurs came out with real, new
>>
>>
>skills and
>
>
>> well-built empennages. Now I am toiling in my
>>
>>
>garage with help
>
>
>> from VAF, this list, and a couple of buddies in
>>
>>
>town who are also
>
>
>> building RVs. But the beginning workshop was a
>>
>>
>huge help and
>
>
>> confidence builder for guys like me, who don't
>>
>>
>have any handyman
>
>
>> background at all. I didn't even own a shop
>>
>>
>vac!
>
>
>> The TWTT and its kind are clearly frauds and I
>>
>>
>don't understand
>
>
>> how they're still in business. Why the FAA has
>>
>>
>to promulgate new
>
>
>> amateur rules instead of enforcing the current
>>
>>
>ones is a mystery
>
>
>> to me. Though I do think the FAA should generate
>>
>>
>new rules
>
>
>> allowing the completely pro-built experimental
>>
>>
>aircraft but
>
>
>> demanding very high, factory-like build standards
>>
>>
>and of course no
>
>
>> repairman's certificate for the owner.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>> From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
>>
>>
>Behalf Of John Cox
>
>
>> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:09 PM
>> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
>>
>> If the owner is always working and doing 10%
>>
>>
>of the build and
>
>
>> the other six builder assist employees (ie
>>
>>
>TWTT) do 90% of the
>
>
>> build, but the owner was learning by watching,
>>
>>
>listening and
>
>
>> writing a check, do I conclude that you think
>>
>>
>this qualifies?
>
>
>> The wide spread misunderstanding provides a
>>
>>
>solid base for the
>
>
>> FAA to implement a new policy.
>>
>> I still love those guys toiling in their
>>
>>
>garage with little
>
>
>> outside assistance who pose questions and
>>
>>
>become the intent
>
>
>> and integrity of this great ole abused rule.
>>
>> John Cox
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
|
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jmsears(at)adelphia.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:40 am Post subject: Builder Available! |
|
|
| Quote: | > i assume that you are not from the states using a+e, but if you are, look
> at it from my point of view. if i have to sign off the aircraft, it has
> to follow the rules, and since i have no rules that tell me autozone
> parts are ok or not for flight i am stuck in the possition of approving a
> flying bar stool for flight. i think the faa screwed the pooch here.
> Second owner on an experimental aicraft puts the i/a in an almost
> imposible situation. we are not jealous, we just want to keep our
> tickets. and not get sued. <<
|
If the new owner works with an A&P to inspect his/her airplane, the owner is
going to be open to suggestions, for the most part. If not, you can kindly
refuse to do the inspection. The A&P can point out those areas of concern
and hopefully convince the owner to make changes that will make the airplane
safer. I've helped an AB-DAR with some inspections and have found things
like improper bolt and nut applications, etc that have bothered me enough
that I suggested changes before flight. Even though I use aircraft grade
wire and terminals, I've seen others who haven't. I would not worry as much
about those items unless they started failing. Using softer grade hardware
store bolts, etc in places were Mil spec bolts are needed would be a
different story. An A&P's job does not have to be difficult. Most of the
errors I've seen have been minor and would not promote an unsafe airplane.
Personally, I'd rather have an A&P give me an honest assessment than to
overlook things that can get me hurt, later. Of course, I would also
appreciate an A&P who would not use his/her ticket as an approval to go hog
wild crazy about fixing those things that don't need fixing, either. There
should be a happy medium in there for both sides.
Jim Sears in KY
EAA Tech Counselor
do not archive
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panamared5(at)brier.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: Builder Available! |
|
|
Richard
I have been reading your posts for a while now. You do have a
predisposition against homebuilt aircraft, regardless of who built
it. I am not an A&P/IA, but what forces you to sign off a
barstool that uses autozone parts? And if you are forced to do so,
why do you buckle to the pressure?
Futhermore, what is wrong with autozone parts? The halogen light
bulb I use for a landing light from autozone has never failed in 6
years of flying. But the landing light on the Citabria I used to
fly would burn out every 25 hours?
The parts that have failed on my aircraft have been certified parts,
seldom if ever does a non certified part fail. Just my
experience. For the record, never have I had an autozone part fail
(landing lights, cockpit lights, fuses, wire terminals, battery
terminals, solenoids, paint, fiberglass, resin, weatherseal, velcro,
RTV, Locktite, primer, fusebox, etc (like anything else, they wear
out, but don't fail prematurely). There probably is certified
Velcro, but really, what's the point?
And by your own posts, the Slick Mags, a certified part, is a piece
of junk? If autozone sells an alternative that in the automobile
field seldom if ever fails, why then would I want to put a certified
piece of junk on my aircraft?
In numerous posts you have mentioned how difficult your job is
because of homebuilts that use non standard or non certified
parts. I understand your concern. But, you are on what is mostly a
homebuilt list telling us that the FAA should not allow homebuilts
that are not certified to FAA standards, since they will eventually
be sold to non-builders who will not be able to maintain them. You
might find a more agreeable audience on a certified aircraft list
rather than on a homebuilt list.
Just my opinion, for what is that is worth, probably not much.
Bob
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
At 11:40 PM 9/2/08, you wrote:
| Quote: |
.... if you are, look at it from my point of view. if i have to sign
off the aircraft, it has to follow the rules, and since i have no
rules that tell me autozone parts are ok or not for flight i am
stuck in the possition of approving a flying bar stool for flight.
i think the faa screwed the pooch here. Second owner on an
experimental aicraft puts the i/a in an almost imposible
position. we are not jealous, we just want to keep our tickets. and
not get sued.
rick
|
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stein(at)steinair.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: Builder Available! |
|
|
Mainly what it comes down to here is education and knowledge. If you don't
know the "rules" then perhaps one should learn them, because they are in
fact quite clear....about what you can use and what you can't when and where
on an experimental. Sure, some FAA people and some FSDO's aren't all that
well educated, but the rules do exist. Each homebuilt that has been
certificated has been manufactured by someone. That someone was issued
Operating Limitations, and coupled with good knowledge of the FAR's and the
43.13 any A&P or IA should be able to work on one (because the aircraft did
have a mfgr as well as an airworthiness certificate). Whether or not they
are comfortable or knowledgeable enough to do so is what remains. It's kind
of like some Avionics shops requiring people to have a certified altimeter
or certified encoder to do a Transponder or Pitot Static check....that's
just ignorance of the requirements. We have a number of A&P's on staff, a
couple IA's, and we also are a certificated FAA 145 repair station. We are
comfortable with Experimentals as well as certified stuff because we know it
and we work hard to keep ourselves educated. The rules are different
indeed, but not to the point where anyone should be scared. If you're that
scared then I'd humbly suggest not working on them, be it airframe, engine,
avionics or instruments.
Last point, the second owner doesn't even need an IA to begin with, and many
second or third owners don't even hire IA's.....again, goes to knowledge of
the "rules".
My 2 cents as usual!
Cheers,
Stein
do not archive...
[quote]--
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Bret Smith
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: Builder Available! |
|
|
Bob,
I am assuming that Richard is referring to inspecting homebuilt or OBAM
aircraft that do not meet the standards of AC43-13. My feeling is that any
aircraft that do not meet the minimum standards should NOT be signed-off,
whether homebuilt or certificated.
Bret Smith
RV-9A "Wiring & FWF"
Blue Ridge, GA
www.FlightInnovations.com
---
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_________________
Bret Smith
RV-9A (Emp) |
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: Builder Available! |
|
|
SteinAir, Inc. wrote:
| Quote: |
Mainly what it comes down to here is education and knowledge. If you don't
know the "rules" then perhaps one should learn them, because they are in
fact quite clear....about what you can use and what you can't when and where
on an experimental. Sure, some FAA people and some FSDO's aren't all that
well educated, but the rules do exist.
Stein, can you provide me with a link??? I've been told just the
|
opposite ...... well, when my Pitts was being inspected he said "if you
made the Pitts out of the cardboard from notepads ..... I'd have a problem".
| Quote: | Each homebuilt that has been
certificated has been manufactured by someone. That someone was issued
Operating Limitations, and coupled with good knowledge of the FAR's and the
43.13 any A&P or IA should be able to work on one (because the aircraft did
have a mfgr as well as an airworthiness certificate). Whether or not they
are comfortable or knowledgeable enough to do so is what remains. It's kind
of like some Avionics shops requiring people to have a certified altimeter
or certified encoder to do a Transponder or Pitot Static check....that's
just ignorance of the requirements. We have a number of A&P's on staff, a
couple IA's, and we also are a certificated FAA 145 repair station. We are
comfortable with Experimentals as well as certified stuff because we know it
and we work hard to keep ourselves educated. The rules are different
indeed, but not to the point where anyone should be scared. If you're that
scared then I'd humbly suggest not working on them, be it airframe, engine,
avionics or instruments.
Last point, the second owner doesn't even need an IA to begin with, and many
second or third owners don't even hire IA's.....again, goes to knowledge of
the "rules".
You forgot to add "All you need is an A&P to sign off the conditional
|
inspection ..... unless you're the builder (which was implied). And
the work doesn't have to be 'under supervision of' and A&P.
| Quote: | My 2 cents as usual!
So, I added a penny!
|
Linn
| Quote: | Cheers,
Stein
do not archive...
|
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