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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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 Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: A&P Standard |
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Hey Milt! Thanks for responding ..... even like you did. Too bad it
won't penetrate.
I am getting tired of the thread, but your response was on the mark ....
IMHO, of course.
Linn
do not archive
N395V wrote:
| Quote: |
rickpegser(at)yahoo.com wrote:
> Tim
>
> i don't know what you do for NASA but if you don't turn wrenches or supervise those that do, your a+p is void. engineering does not count. your shitty in house quality control has caused to loss of two shuttles, if you can show me a nasa manager in jail, and then you can tell me how good your quality is. i can show you a/i's that are in jail, for screwing up but i guess if you work for nasa it does not count.
>
> rick
> --
>
Rick,
Where you born an asshole or is this a newly acquired skill?
Are you a certified asshole or an experimental asshole?
Actually it doesn't matter for it is certain you are an asshole the type irrelevant.
The quality of the people at NASA have put men on the moon and given us much of the technology that today makes our lives much better.
They had some accidents along the way the 2 of which you mention probably had more to do with politics and political appointees than with quality control, NASA engineers or A&Ps. The folks at NASA are some of the the brightest most dedicated people in this country. Who the fuck are you to question them you low life little piece of shit.
You would make an excellent adviser for OBAMA he seems to like to spout nonsense and bullshit without concern for facts or truth.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2721#202721
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n395v
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:38 am Post subject: Re: A&P Standard |
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Linn,
It has been my experience that if you are going to descend into the gutter to fight with a rat it is more effective if you use weapons similar to those used by the rat. Distasteful as that is they have a better appreciation for the flavor of your response.
do not archive
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Milt |
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mrobert569(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: A&P Standard |
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Rick C
Did you re-read your email C or use spell check. I only have my A&P C so I guess I fit into your definition. You may want to re-think your position.
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
For heavens sake...DO NOT ARCHIVE.
Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from Jamie
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mrobert569(at)hotmail.com
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jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: A&P Standard |
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Wow just re-read the post written by Rick, If I was an A&P I would be
pretty POed, I guess all you A&P are amateurs and us owner builders are
idiots.
This is WAY over the top. Rick I would sell your project now because you
are never going to fit into the RV community.
BTW I personally know DAS FED and have the greatest respect for his
knowledge and ability to inspect aircraft but I guess even though he
just an A&P and is an FAA inspector he is just an amateur. NOT
do not archive
--------------------------------------------------Rick
wrote-----------------------------------------------------------
> so you are going to have an a+p not an i/a do your conditional. go
for it. what you have basically asked is an apprentice, that has little
experience with the airframe or engine to say that everything is all
right. he has no experience with a/d research, does not not where to
find the service bulletins on experimental parts. and has seen a lot
less of the field failures that we deal with. so at this point we have
an amateur
> build aircraft , inspected by amateurs. owned by idoits. if you have
an a+p and are to lasy to take the test, then don't do inspections.
> rick
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n1cxo320(at)salidaco.com
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: A&P Standard |
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Dead on, Mike.
I have an A&E with IA in the hangar next to me. He doesn't "practice" anymore, but offered good suggestions while I was building my RV6A.
I think I know more about the specific plane I spent 4-years building than a causal observer or someone who spends perhaps an hour looking at it. I don't mind suggestions, or even constructive critisims, but I know that all examinations (like A&E, Law, Physiciams, etc) are all designed to measure if the candidate has the MINIMUM knowledge to proceed. So mere possession of any "credential" is always proof positive that the person is all knowledgeable.
I do my own annual condtion inspections in strict accord with the operating limitations, and feel very comfortable doing so...and have done so for the past 13 or more years.
FWIW
John at Salida, CO
[quote][b]
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kyrilian_av(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: A&P Standard |
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Milt,
FWIW, I think this is misguided and unfortunate. It seems that you're destroying your own reputation with the rest of the group; and for what? If you think you're in the gutter to fight a rat, then do you really think you'll change his mind or teach him anything? You'll just get muddy and bloody and look like a hot-headed jerk to the rest. Though Rick was clearly out of line with regard to his NASA generalizations, you proved yourself quite the adolescent with your curse-filled tirade. That language has no place on forums like this.
In my opinion, the only political discussions that should take place here should relate to aviation. For instance, will Gov Palin's strong support for GA blunt McCains staunch support of user fees? I doubt it, but let's hope so.
As for political BS and misinformation, it seems there's plenty of lies to go around.
http://www.factcheck.org/
- Kyrilian
Do not archive
--- On Fri, 9/5/08, N395V <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com> wrote:
| Quote: | From: N395V <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
Subject: Re: A&P Standard
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 10:38 AM
| Quote: | --> RV-List message posted by: "N395V"<Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>> even like you didLinn,It has been my experience that if you are going to descend into the gutter tofight with a rat it is more effective if you use weapons similar to those usedby the rat. Distasteful as that is they have a better appreciation for theflavor of your response.do not archive--------Milt2003 F1
Rocket2006 Radial Rocket |
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[quote][b]
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n395v
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: Re: A&P Standard |
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[quote="kyrilian_av(at)yahoo.com"]Milt,
FWIW, I think this is misguided and unfortunate. It seems that you're destroying your own reputation with the rest of the group; and for what? If you think you're in the gutter to fight a rat, then do you really think you'll change his mind or teach him anything? You'll just get muddy and bloody and look like a hot-headed jerk to the rest. Though Rick was clearly out of line with regard to his NASA generalizations, you proved yourself quite the adolescent with your curse-filled tirade. That language has no place on forums like this.
In my opinion, the only political discussions that should take place here should relate to aviation. For instance, will Gov Palin's strong support for GA blunt McCains staunch support of user fees? I doubt it, but let's hope so.
As for political BS and misinformation, it seems there's plenty of lies to go around.
http://www.factcheck.org/
- Kyrilian
Do not archive
--- On Fri, 9/5/08, N395V <Bearcat> wrote:
| Quote: | From: N395V <Bearcat>
Subject: Re: A&P Standard
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 10:38 AM
| Quote: | --> RV-List message posted by: "N395V"<Bearcat>> even like you didLinn,It has been my experience that if you are going to descend into the gutter tofight with a rat it is more effective if you use weapons similar to those usedby the rat. Distasteful as that is they have a better appreciation for theflavor of your response.do not archive--------Milt2003 F1
Rocket2006 Radial Rocket |
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You are entitled to your opinion. I am who I am and will not lose any sleep over what my reputation may or may not be.
do not archive
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Milt |
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panamared5(at)brier.net
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: A&P Standard |
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Long and boring answer, delete if you are tired of this discussion.
| Quote: | Excellent post and understandable. So here is a hypothetical question:
Mr. John Jones builds an RX-4 and gets his AWC as an experimental
Homebuilt Aircraft. But he decides since it is an experimental and
he can do whatever he wants to he decides to use several non
aircraft type parts and automotive wiring, plus RC model servo
equipment for electric trims. Each year if he also obtained the A&P
license for this aircraft can perform the conditional inspection.
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Anybody can perform the conditional inspection. However, only the
repairman or an A&P can sign the logbook with the appropriate
statement in my operating conditions assigned to me by the FAA, I must sate:
"I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with the
scope and detail of Part 43, appendix D and found to be in a condition
for safe flight."
As far a non certified parts, when the aircraft receives the DAR
inspection, or in my case the FAA inspection, then non standard
parts, engineering, etc should be discussed and then evaluated by the
builder and inspector for its appropriateness for safe flight. My
FAA inspector did not allow me to do some things that I wanted, made
me change a few things. So just because it is an experimental, that
did not give me a license to do anything I wanted. A wild
example: I don't expect I would be allowed to hold my wings on with
rubber bands the way I do with some R/C aircraft! But, I can use a
non certified experimental oil filter for my formerly certified
Lycoming engine!
It is my opinion that many non certified parts/equipment are as good
or maybe better than the certified parts (yes I agree some are not,
buyer beware). But, we will never know, because most of the time the
reason a part is not certified is because of the extra cost and
burden associated with the testing and evaluation, i.e destructive
testing and the endless paper trail (this is good and bad).
| Quote: | But then in year 4 he is real busy with work so he hires a licensed
A&P mechanic to do his condition inspection. Does that A&P have the
leisure to inspect this aircraft and have no concerns for the parts
that were used in this aircraft? Is he in jeopardy if he inspects
this aircraft and one of those parts causes an accident? This is my
real question as an A&P has some obligation to follow the accepted
practices in the aviation field but an experimental doesn't really
have to meet the same criteria. It is an experiment.
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Like anything in life there is a risk. I will give my opinion, but
the issue can only be resolved in a court of law, or with more
specific FAA regulations (which I don't think we need or want).
I have an obnoxious A&P/IA friend who has refused to do a conditional
inspection on a retaliative's homebuilt aircraft because parts
installed did not meet the detail of Part 43, appendix D. He has
done conditional inspections on numerous homebuilts. He uses his
professional judgment on the issue in question on whether the
aircraft is airworthy/safe or not. It is his right to refuse to do
the inspection, or to not sign the logbook if in his judgement he
determines the aircraft is not safe or unairworthy using Part 43,
appendix D as a guide. Yes if there is a part that fails
(experimental or certified) I am sure the FAA will question him if
there is a crash.
As for experimental parts. If the manufacturer installs this part,
i.e. the builder, even if the builder is Cessna , then by installing
the part, the manufacturer is making a statement that the part is
necessary and safe for flight and during testing will determine if
it is safe and or appropriate. The way I see it, once the FAA or DAR
inspector inspects the aircraft, it is as if by decree, all parts
(certified or non certified) are airworthy. Certified parts fail
(Slick Mags), non certified parts fail, the question would be, did
the part failure cause the crash, and was the part inspected or
checked using reasonable sound inspection techniques?
Some non certified parts/equipment give inspection criteria within
the owners manual, i.e. the Rocky Mountain Instruments Micro Encoder.
On the other hand , I have a non certified fuel injection system, how
does it get checked/inspected? The same way a certified fuel system
would be checked. I have a non certified Lycoming engine, it gets
inspected the same way a certified engine does.
Now 4 years later, I decide to change out a part because I designed a
new, better, faster, part (example: I build a tapered wing for my
RV6, spar and leading edge all the same, but aft ribs and trailing
edge is tapered). My operating procedures spell out what I must do
to maintain the airworthiness of my aircraft if I make a major
alteration such as this, (or if I just go from a fixed pitched prop
to a constant speed). I put my aircraft back into phase 1 testing
for 5 hours. After the 5 hours and I have worked all the bugs out, I
sign the log book with the work done and the test results. After
that time the A&P would be inspecting the airplane based upon the
changes made. Sort of like the STC/337 process.
On the other hand, I am not a professional builder, I have had many
A&P/IAs look at my aircraft to give me advice on how to, is it right,
is it safe. I welcome an A&P/IA comments/advice. Things that I did
not know how to do, I hired an A&P/IA to do the work and inspect it,
i.e. time the Mags and Mag inspection.
As far as parts go, I had to design and fabricate my own throttle
mixture bracket for a Fuel Injected servo. Vans did not have one,
nor did anyone else at the time. Non standard part, not even on the
aircraft plans. Of all the A&P/IAs that have checked my aircraft
(especially the engine installation) not one has ever mention
this! I often wonder why?
As I said before, this is really not a big issue, it is spelled out
in the FAA regulations on how to do it. It should also be in the
aircraft operating conditions that are required to be a part of the
aircraft documents. If this issue really bothers you, then don't
deal with homebuilts, simple solution.
Note: We are allowed to put auto engines in our homebuilts. What
better place to get parts and stuff for the installation than
"Autozone," .....well personally, I might use "Summit Racing," but
Autozone would do.
Bob
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
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Terry Watson
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: A&P Standard |
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Milt,
I would be a little more inclined to just see your response as you
apparently see it -- justified by the exceptional circumstances -- had I not
seen you do the same thing when totally unjustified. Over the years I find
that I usually agree with your opinions but I find the way you sometimes
express them disgusting and way off base on these public Matronics lists. Do
us all a favor and follow the rules you agreed to when you signed for the
list. Maybe you don't care about your reputation and maybe you see yourself
as someone above rules that are for the rest of us -- but you are
contaminating it for at least many of us.
Terry
--
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mike(at)profishenterprise
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: A&P Standard |
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I'm new to these forum sites and because of this show of who's the biggest
jerk I'm not sure it's worth being a member. Will you guys please let it GO.
I'm very excited to be building the first airplane I will own and fly.
Please make this a site with info and not petty fights.
Again get over it and LET IT GO.
Mike Schulz
Pro Fish Enterprises, LLC
4878 Edgewater Drive
Mound, MN 55364
612-590-8604
--
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n343fd(at)yahoo.com
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bo124rs(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: A&P Standard |
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Mike C go to vansairforce.net builders there with great current ideas......................
Dana Overall
Richmond C KY i39
RV-7 slider "Black Magic"
Flying..well sorta C useta C kinda
Barrett Precision O 360 A1A
Hartzell C2YR-1BFP/F7497-2
http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackmagic.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMi05-WU2D0#GU5U2spHI_4
http://rvflying.tripod.com
do not archive
[quote] From: mike(at)profishenterprises.com
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: A&P Standard
Date: Fri C 5 Sep 2008 16:45:41 -0500
I'm new to these forum sites and because of this show of who's the biggest
jerk I'm not sure it's worth being a member. Will you guys please let it GO.
I'm very excited to be building the first airplane I will own and fly.
Please make this a site with info and not petty fights.
Again get over it and LET IT GO.
Mike Schulz
Pro Fish Enterprises C LLC
4878 Edgewater Drive
Mound C MN 55364
612-590-8604
--
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