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RED ALERT - Safety Review
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

Sounds fair to me!  

 

Mark

 

p.s.  I'm going to do it Tom.  

 

 



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of tjyak50

Sent: Wed 10/8/2008 11:40 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review






Fine.

Install it and I will get you a discount off your Hull insurance premium.



W.O.W. switch won't work in a Yak.



I got MY gear warning system installed, but mostly because I am not really all that good at flying..





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=208018#208018

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

No, not really Doc.  A rad alt gives very accurate distance to an indicator in the cockpit.  It can indeed be used to tie in to a gear warning system of course as you mentioned, but it is very expensive.  A ground proximity warning system on the other hand, is much cheaper (usually) and simply senses that the aircraft is within a certain preset distance from the ground.  Extreme accuracy is not usually necessary.  As long as it triggers somewhere between say 50 to 100 feet from the deck.  It would tie in to the gear warning light system with an AND gate for summing the gear warning lights.   It could also be wired with a tad bit more circuitry to a solenoid that would replace the landing gear safety pin.  This pin would activate any time the gear was already down and the aircraft was below the GPWS setting with a delay factor.  This would also mean that you could not RAISE the gear until you were over 150 feet or so from the runway.... which is another good safety factor.  If the gear was UP the solenoid pin would be disabled.  This way you can do away with a Weight On Wheels or... Weight OFF Wheels switch, which as Tom mentioned is pretty much impossible to do on a 50, or possibly even a 52.   But it solves that problem does it not Tom?  

 

Mark



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Roger Kemp MD

Sent: Wed 10/8/2008 11:21 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review






You referring to a WOW switch coupled to a radar altimeter?

Doc



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

Doc, in order to have  a WOW switch work, something has to MOVE.  The distance it MOVES has to enough to make a SWITCH activate or deactivate.  Think about the 50 .... what moves?  The struts when inflated correctly can be so stiff as to not move at all on landing.   Yes, the slide lock can be replaced with an electronic version (solenoid).  Headset noises are no problem either.  A Rad/Alt could also be used instead of GPWS, but at more expense.   

 

The simple fact though is that if you have a GPWS, you really do not need a weight on wheels switch.  Just some control logic.  When the gear is down and you are below min altititude, the solenoid locks the pin so the gear can not be raised and audio alerts are disabled.  When the aircraft takes off, and gets above minimum alt. then the gear lock pin UNLOCKS, the gear can then be raised, and audio alerts are re-activated.  

 

Am I missing something? 

 

Mark

 



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Roger Kemp MD

Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 1:55 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review



Someone yesterday said a WOW switch would not work on the YAK? Why? We are talking about a weight on wheels switch. I disables the up circuit on the gear handle. Since we have a manual slide lock a simple micro circuit could be added to the slide lock that when there is weight on the wheels and the slide lock is open there is gear warning horn or beep beep in the head set. With enough bucks you could even have a synthetic "Bitching Betty" saying "check gear, check gear". (or whatever you want to say, like" take your &*^%$#(at) hands of the gear handle!") Yes, when you slide the slide lock open for TO you would get that warning also. For a few folks I have seen TO, that may not be such a bad idea either. The radar altimeter could also be incorporated for a ground proximity warning also on landing warning of gear up landing when there is no weight on the wheels.



Just a thought.



Doc



 



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp

Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 12:12 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review



 



Guys,



As Elmar and Mark pointed out, it's already been built, it has been available for years.  The sticking point is the $1250.00 uninstalled cost and to a somewhat lesser degree the mentality that "it won't happen to me".  TJ and I have talked about all this before.  But if we are going to to drag this horse out and beat it some more I would like to restate my opinion, knowing full well that with it and $1.50 you can get a cup of coffee.   



 



At the risk of being drug out of my office and summarily tarred and feathered I would (somewhat cautiously suggest) that if we REALLY want to be proactive on this gear warn issue IMHO the only way to enact it across the board is a UP charge on our insurance premiums.  This upcharge would be refunded upon the installation of a acceptable gear warn system.  Reading TJ's curent email I also assume that once it was installed we could enjoy a reduction of our annual premiums also.  As unpopular as it may be to suggest yet another increase in our flying expenses, I honestly think this may be the only way to get everyone's attention and have a real impact on the problem of gear up landings.  



 



Retracting the gear on the ramp is yet another issue and must be delt with in another manner.



 



Always Yakin,



Doug



On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50(at)fuse.net> wrote:




tjyak50 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   We've gone around and around on this subject for years.

 There is always a way to find a reason why each system isn't perfect.



 So nobody does anything.


	




Build it and they will come.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=207999#207999

-- 

Always Yakin,

Doug Sapp

Phone 509-826-4610

Fax 509-826-3644



 

 

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

http://forums.matronics.com

http://www.matronics.com/contribution

dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

Well, there you go Mark, you'll installed an approved system and your going to get a reduction in your premiums.  That's exactly what I was talking about.  But that's only you, many others will not do anything and will continue to have gear up accidents which will cause the premiums to remain high.  That's my point, unless it's "accross the board" you will not see and reduction in rates.  Tom, want to weigh in here?

   

 OK Mark, we have heard your criticism of the idea, now lets hear YOUR suggestions as to how you think it's best to solve the problem.

  

 Always Yakin,

 Doug

 On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  Sounds fair to me!  



Mark



p.s.  I'm going to do it Tom.



________________________________

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) on behalf of tjyak50

Sent: Wed 10/8/2008 11:40 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)



Subject: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review



--> Yak-List message posted by: "tjyak50" <tomjohnson(at)cox.net (tomjohnson(at)cox.net)>

 

Fine.

Install it and I will get you a discount off your Hull insurance premium.



W.O.W. switch won't work in a Yak.



I got MY gear warning system installed, but mostly because I am not really all that good at flying..

  



Read this topic online here:

[url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8018#208018]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8018#208018[/url]

 



	


-- 

Always Yakin,

Doug Sapp

Phone 509-826-4610

Fax 509-826-3644



  [quote][b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

No, not missing anything and I see your logic as hopefully you see mine. The

squat switch does not have to be on the sleeve of the strut but could be on

the scissor although the best place for it is on the barrel of the strut. At

the tech order strut operating pressure (I forget the numbers), my struts

collapse about 1/4-1/2 in with wt. on them. That may not be enough to be

practical for a WOW switch. 

The ground proximity warning sonar is practical and $1295 is reasonable I

guess. Just means I have to leave off another accessory planned for the

winter if I chose to install this. For now the check list still works and my

insurance rates remain the same. Amaratizing the $1300 over the $50 to $100

extra I would get off my $1800 annual premiums means at best it would be 13

years before I could re-coupe the investment in the GPWS. I could bend the

plane doing something else over that time too. 

Self insuring, investing the premiums in this Bear market, and simply

waiting out the recovery also means that I could make enough over the next

10 years to replace a couple of aircraft too. The new housing sales pending

starts are already up 30% in this "bad economy". Did not see that on the big

"three" either did you.

Doc  



--

flushjohnson(at)charter.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

What happened to good logic and check list? Todays younger pilots want 

something else to do their thinking for them. The more technology you put 

into an airplane the more chances you have for some sort of failure. You 

want an airplane with all the bells and whistles go buy a new What  Ever for 

a hell of a lo.t more money.

---

flushjohnson(at)charter.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

There is no PROBLEM , it is all about pilot  attitude .

 [quote]   ---

flushjohnson(at)charter.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

What has happened to good logic and check list? The problem with pilots 

today is they want something else to do their thinking for them. The first 

time the tech. fails who does the pilot blame. The manufacturer or the 

installar. What happened to the KISS theory.

---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

It went out of fashion after about a kazillion dudes landed with their gear up. 

 

Ok, so I am being a wise ass.  The point is, of COURSE there is nothing wrong with following a check list.  However, it has been proven time after time after time that things can happen that cause even the best of pilots to not follow a given habit pattern, and that includes check lists.  Nothing wrong with a check list.  Everyone should use them.  

 

However, come the time when the tower calls you on short final asking:  N50YK is this a low approach or a touch and go, because ... your gear is up.... that's when you start thinking: "You know, it might not be a bad idea to have something to back up the check list in case I ever make a mistake.  

 

People that are perfect do not need a back up.  

 

I have yet to meet a perfect pilot, although a lot of fighter pilots claim that they are. 

 

Mark

 



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Forrest Johnson

Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 9:18 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review






What has happened to good logic and check list? The problem with pilots

today is they want something else to do their thinking for them. The first

time the tech. fails who does the pilot blame. The manufacturer or the

installar. What happened to the KISS theory.

---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

It may indeed be an issue with pilot attitude Forrest. 

 

But then why does every commercial heavy out there, have a system that reminds the aircrew on landing that their gear is not down?  Does every ATP pilot out there have an attitude problem, or might it be that having a backup is never a bad idea?  

 

Doug.... you're right.  If you want to try to force people to do something, then an UPCHARGE is a good idea. However a ton of people, including myself, do not like to be FORCED.  Someone tries to force me into something like that, and I go looking for another insurance company to deal with.  Sorry, that's the way I am.  To each their own. This was not meant as a personal attack on you.  Explain why you think it is a good idea.  I simply can not see your point, mainly because you never made it ok?  

 

If you want to try to make someone make the decision on their own, offer them a rate reduction.  I am going to put this thing in.  It is long over-due.  I have had two incidents in my life where I ALMOST landed gear up.  I didn't.  Good for me.  However it taught me that I am not perfect.  Others might think they are... I do not.  I'll put it in and see what Tom gives me for a reduction.  I'll publish that info and the design that I use to install it.  Others might decide to do the same.  

 

If not, then oh well.  

 

Mark

 



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Forrest Johnson

Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 8:49 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review

There is no PROBLEM , it is all about pilot attitude .



	---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

So Forrest, how do you feel about auto-pilots?    

 

Mark

 



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Forrest Johnson

Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 8:45 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review






What happened to good logic and check list? Todays younger pilots want

something else to do their thinking for them. The more technology you put

into an airplane the more chances you have for some sort of failure. You

want an airplane with all the bells and whistles go buy a new What  Ever for

a hell of a lo.t more money.

---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

Doc.  Let me know how you make out.  I agree that over a grand is a lot of money.  Too freaking much money to be honest.  You can build some fancy stuff for a grand.  I need to rethink this.  Possibly ultrasonic or laser might be more effective and cheaper.  And here I was all gung-ho for a little while.  

 

Don't talk to me about the market. 

 

Mark

 



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Roger Kemp MD

Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 3:32 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review






No, not missing anything and I see your logic as hopefully you see mine. The

squat switch does not have to be on the sleeve of the strut but could be on

the scissor although the best place for it is on the barrel of the strut. At

the tech order strut operating pressure (I forget the numbers), my struts

collapse about 1/4-1/2 in with wt. on them. That may not be enough to be

practical for a WOW switch.

The ground proximity warning sonar is practical and $1295 is reasonable I

guess. Just means I have to leave off another accessory planned for the

winter if I chose to install this. For now the check list still works and my

insurance rates remain the same. Amaratizing the $1300 over the $50 to $100

extra I would get off my $1800 annual premiums means at best it would be 13

years before I could re-coupe the investment in the GPWS. I could bend the

plane doing something else over that time too.

Self insuring, investing the premiums in this Bear market, and simply

waiting out the recovery also means that I could make enough over the next

10 years to replace a couple of aircraft too. The new housing sales pending

starts are already up 30% in this "bad economy". Did not see that on the big

"three" either did you.

Doc 



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

Talk to Dennis, he has installed a very simple warning system in his 52.



Doc



--

petervs(at)knology.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

About gear up landings... I've almost done this twice when another plane

entered the pattern without saying a word. Fortunately my instructor drilled

in multiple gear checks and I caught it on final. What I had done both times

was put the flaps down instead of the gear. The knob feels about the same,

the plane decelerates, the air systems makes that familiar noise. Then when

I got slowed down I put the flaps up, thinking I was putting them down.

Again, the knob feels the same and there is that familiar sound. But the

plane did not fly right. It was hard to slow down. I fly a close pattern and

steep decent and so the throttle was at the idle stop and I was still fast.

I was looking around for clues and saw the three red lights. I looked at

them and thought ok the gear lights are red, wait... red is bad, red is bad,

holy crap the handle is in the up position. I could not understand why until

much later. I knew I had put it down. I got the gear down, checked the poles

and lights and handle three more times. Then on short final realized my

flaps were up. I landed with the flaps up I wasn't about to touch anything

until I understood what had happened. 



About warning horns. They don't always work. Ask my friend who landed his

twin commanche gear up. He was task saturated and annoyed by the "stall

warning" going off all the way from short final to touchdown. He never

realized the tone was not the stall warning but actually the gear warning.



Avoiding a gear up landing is all about discipline. Here are my rules.



1) If I have a GIB I brief them that the only thing they have to do on the

flight is to make sure I put the gear down. I tell them to make sure the

three lights are green and the two poles are up. I tell them to tell me that

over the intercom. No one rides without duties.



2) I make three gear checks, one before I roll off the perch, one on base

and the other on short final.



3) I make two announcements. One on base over the radio that gear is down

and pressure is up. One to the GIB, "Three Green, Three Poles." I expect the

reply "Three Green, two poles." I even make the radio call at controlled

fields after being cleared to land. I want that gear check on the towers

tape recording, and I don’t want to change my discipline just because I am

landing somewhere different.



4) On short final I remember the saying "Three Green over the Green."



5) In formation flight I check everyone's gear. I make sure everyone makes a

gear check radio call. If my wingman let's me land gear up, he is paying for

it!



6) If anything unusual happens in the pattern, get out the check list and

start over.



7) If you cannot remember checking the gear all three times the next day,

you have to severely reprimand yourself.



For fun, let’s everyone list the tools they use to for gear checks.



Squatch out.



                                        __|__

                            __|__   ----=(*)=----

                __|__   ----=(*)=----

    __|__   ----=(*)=----

----=(*)=----

--

nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

Hear Hear.  

   

Don’t want any more premiums over here in the UK thank you, and why should an aircraft design be changed that has been happily operating for several years (with the correct pilot training - see below) just because a few pilots are not on the ball (incorrect or lack of training?).  

   

We all know the old adage…”there are pilots who have, and pilots who will…” (make a gear up landing), but in my opinion….. read on…  

   

Whatever happened to a good checkout by a good instructor to make sure those PUFA drills are burnt into the brain?  

THAT is the only way to prevent a gear up landing AND it also prevents landing with NO AIR PRESSURE (no brakes) (as recently done by someone in the UK here because they didn’t APPLY their UNDERSTANDING of the emergency gear/air system).  

   

If you forget all other checks, irrespective of whether you’re taking shortcuts by coming straight in (instead of downwind) or doing constant aspect (curved) approaches – the rule is to do the life-saver CONFIRMATION check at 300 feet: PUFA (Prop [Full fine], Undercarriage [ALREADY down and locked – 3 greens AND three soldiers], Flaps [ALREADY down], AIR [sufficient for braking].  

   

No undercarriage at that stage = go-around. End of story. No messing about trying to get it down. Forget it. GO AROUND and start again because if you’ve forgotten that, the chances are you’ve missed a check and have forgotten something else……  

   

   

Nigel (Yak52 aerobatic display pilot and Class Rating Instructor)  

   

   

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Forrest Johnson

 Sent: 10 October 2008 01:50

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review  

  

  

     

There is no PROBLEM , it is all about pilot attitude .  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: doug sapp (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)   

    

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:31 PM  

    

Subject: Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review  

    

   

      

Well, there you go Mark, you'll installed an approved system and your going to get a reduction in your premiums.  That's exactly what I was talking about.  But that's only you, many others will not do anything and will continue to have gear up accidents which will cause the premiums to remain high.  That's my point, unless it's "accross the board" you will not see and reduction in rates.  Tom, want to weigh in here?  

    

   

    

OK Mark, we have heard your criticism of the idea, now lets hear YOUR suggestions as to how you think it's best to solve the problem.  

    

   

    

Always Yakin,  

    

Doug  

    

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:  

Sounds fair to me!  

 

 Mark

 

 p.s.  I'm going to do it Tom.

 

 

 

 ________________________________

 

 From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) on behalf of tjyak50

 Sent: Wed 10/8/2008 11:40 PM    

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)  

  

Subject: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review

 

 

 

 --> Yak-List message posted by: "tjyak50" <tomjohnson(at)cox.net (tomjohnson(at)cox.net)>

 

 Fine.

 Install it and I will get you a discount off your Hull insurance premium.

 

 W.O.W. switch won't work in a Yak.

 

 I got MY gear warning system installed, but mostly because I am not really all that good at flying..    



 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:  

  

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=208018#208018

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

  



  

 -- 

 Always Yakin,

 Doug Sapp

 Phone 509-826-4610

 Fax 509-826-3644  

   	  Quote: 	
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       [quote][b]

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:03 am Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

With regards to Peter's statement "The knob feels about the  same,", he is of course 100% correct.  One  of the things that I did was remove the flap handle ball and grind flats on 4  sides of the ball to give it a somewhat different feel.   

  

 Then I created a gear/flap warning "system" using a simple  piezoelectric alarm device which operates on 28 volts and puts out a high  frequency shrill at about 90 DB (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062399&cp=2032058.2032230.2032266&parentPage=family)  and some 1N4001 diodes.  I interfaced the alarm circuit to the flap down  microswitch and the nose gear microswitch and of course, ground and 28  volts.  If the flaps go down before the gear is down, the alarm sounds  off.  And it is loud!  It's not 100% fool proof, but it's certainly  better than forgetting the gear altogether.  Although I haven't added it  yet, a red or yellow lamp could easily be added to the instrument panel next to  the airspeed indicator.  It would also come on with the alarm.  Once  the gear goes down, the alarm turns off.

 Dennis

   

 [quote]   ---

randmyak52(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

I did the same with the gear handle. Sliced each  side off with a disc grinder, made it resemble a wheel somewhat. Haven't landed  with the gear up since, or before for that matter. this makes me  nervous!!!!!

 [quote]   ---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

BGTPF (It starts with my radio call on initiation of base turn) The radio call triggers my second check. The first began on downwind after the break turn.   

B- Base radio call  

G- Gear  

T- Three Green (Trike) or Two Green ( Tail Dragger)  

P- Pressure (works for hydraulics and air)/ Prop  

F- Flaps  

Gump also works  

G- Gas  

U- Undercarriage  

M- Mixture  

P- Prop  

You do not need flaps to land in many aircraft. Ours included.   

Now, I’m curious, in the YAK the Gear and the Flap handles are positioned differently in different quadrants of the cockpit. Why are you starting your landing checklist with moving your hand back from the prop rather than moving it forward from the prop and manifold pressure.  Slow the A/C to 160 clicks, set the pitch at 70% and manifold pressure at 400 mmHg and then the left hand should move forward to the left quadrant of the instrument panel to activate the gear. Only after the gear are down, three or two green  are seen and if equipped three barber poles checked do I move my left hand back to the flaps at or past the initiation of the base turn. On final, I run the gear check a last time.   

PUFA works too! Just sounds a bit gay. Oh, that’s PUFTA! :>)) Not to be confused.  

Doc  

   

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel Willson

 Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 1:12 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review  

  

  

   

Hear Hear.  

   

Don’t want any more premiums over here in the UK thank you, and why should an aircraft design be changed that has been happily operating for several years (with the correct pilot training - see below) just because a few pilots are not on the ball (incorrect or lack of training?).  

   

We all know the old adage…”there are pilots who have, and pilots who will…” (make a gear up landing), but in my opinion….. read on…  

   

Whatever happened to a good checkout by a good instructor to make sure those PUFA drills are burnt into the brain?  

THAT is the only way to prevent a gear up landing AND it also prevents landing with NO AIR PRESSURE (no brakes) (as recently done by someone in the UK here because they didn’t APPLY their UNDERSTANDING of the emergency gear/air system).  

   

If you forget all other checks, irrespective of whether you’re taking shortcuts by coming straight in (instead of downwind) or doing constant aspect (curved) approaches – the rule is to do the life-saver CONFIRMATION check at 300 feet: PUFA (Prop [Full fine], Undercarriage [ALREADY down and locked – 3 greens AND three soldiers], Flaps [ALREADY down], AIR [sufficient for braking].  

   

No undercarriage at that stage = go-around. End of story. No messing about trying to get it down. Forget it. GO AROUND and start again because if you’ve forgotten that, the chances are you’ve missed a check and have forgotten something else……  

   

   

Nigel (Yak52 aerobatic display pilot and Class Rating Instructor)  

   

   

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Forrest Johnson

 Sent: 10 October 2008 01:50

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review  

  

  

     

There is no PROBLEM , it is all about pilot attitude .  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: doug sapp (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)   

    

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:31 PM  

    

Subject: Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review  

    

   

      

Well, there you go Mark, you'll installed an approved system and your going to get a reduction in your premiums.  That's exactly what I was talking about.  But that's only you, many others will not do anything and will continue to have gear up accidents which will cause the premiums to remain high.  That's my point, unless it's "accross the board" you will not see and reduction in rates.  Tom, want to weigh in here?  

    

   

    

OK Mark, we have heard your criticism of the idea, now lets hear YOUR suggestions as to how you think it's best to solve the problem.  

    

   

    

Always Yakin,  

    

Doug  

    

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:  

Sounds fair to me!  

 

 Mark

 

 p.s.  I'm going to do it Tom.

 

 

 

 ________________________________

 

 From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) on behalf of tjyak50

 Sent: Wed 10/8/2008 11:40 PM    

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)  

  

Subject: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review

 

 

 

 --> Yak-List message posted by: "tjyak50" <tomjohnson(at)cox.net (tomjohnson(at)cox.net)>

 

 Fine.

 Install it and I will get you a discount off your Hull insurance premium.

 

 W.O.W. switch won't work in a Yak.

 

 I got MY gear warning system installed, but mostly because I am not really all that good at flying..    



 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:  

  

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=208018#208018

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

  



  

 -- 

 Always Yakin,

 Doug Sapp

 Phone 509-826-4610

 Fax 509-826-3644  

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KingCJ6(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

Check out Bill Blackwell's red oversized machined aluminum gear wheel --  hard to mistake it for the flap knob and much easier to grab without  looking.

  

 Dave

  

  In a message dated 10/10/2008 5:49:40 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  randmyak52(at)bellsouth.net writes:

 [quote]   I did the same with the gear handle. Sliced each    side off with a disc grinder, made it resemble a wheel somewhat. Haven't    landed with the gear up since, or before for that matter. this makes me    nervous!!!!!

   [quote]     ---

flushjohnson(at)charter.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: RED ALERT - Safety Review

Auto-pilot is a greattool to releive the pilot but was never intended to be 

the brains of the airplane. It needs to be monitored all the time. 

Complacency  and to much dependancy  can lead to big problems especially 

when IFR.

---

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