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Oil shut-off valve
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yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:36 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Actually Jan, I don't believe in parking brakes.  I personally think they are an accident looking to happen.  



Mark

--- On Sat, 9/18/10, Jan Mevis <jan.mevis(at)informavia.be> wrote:



[quote] From: Jan Mevis <jan.mevis(at)informavia.be>

 Subject: RE: Oil shut-off valve

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Saturday, September 18, 2010, 3:45 AM

 

 "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis(at)informavia.be>

 

 For a parking brake in my 50, I use something very simple:

 a velcro strap

 (like the ones used to tie up network cables) with which I

 hold the brake. 

 When ready to depart, I simply unlock the brake by removing

 the strap

 (without undoing it) and then shift it on the stick. (If

 this is unclear I

 'll make a photo and post it to the list). I leave it on

 the stick all the

 time. It can't become an FOD while flying because your hand

 is in the way.

 

 Jan

 

 --

William Halverson

Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88

Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:45 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Oh .. no ... so I have to be infirm enough to _not_ be able to pull 

the blades through now?   Maybe rig up a torque wrench somehow?



Good God, time to trade her in for a lawn mower.



Hal



At 08:24 PM 9/18/2010, Yak Pilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Actually, "when in doubt"  pull out the spark plugs and let the oil 

drain.   It is actually quite easy to bend connecting rods just 

using the prop as a lever.  So it is actually not all just about how 

many times you pull the prop through, but also how you are holding 

it, where you are holding it, how hard you are pulling it, etc.



Doc advocates letting it all come out of the sump drain. Others 

recommend fixing the ball check valve.  Others recommend an oil shut 

off valve.

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:18 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

I concur with that, and I use my small mod only for starting up the

aircraft. When needed I can add another prime or two, without worrying that

the aircraft might jump forward. You never know who might be foolish enough

to stand in front of the prop ... even after shouting a loud "prop cleaar

..".



Jan



PS: I would NEVER leave an aircraft alone with a running engine, and parking

brakes set, like some do.  



--

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:52 am Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

I agree that one should NEVER leave the aircraft when it's running  

(who does that, anyway?), but parking brakes have other purposes, such  

as, oh, PARKING (chocks not always available immediately, or needed  

for a short stay). Also, I always use the parking brake during pull  

through... especially when it might have been flown recently, because  

if somehow the mags are on (passengers anyone) and you failed to check  

it, at least the plane wont be advancing on you while it's trying to  

chop you up. Lastly, even though I'm in the plane, I set the parking  

brake during start-up and shut-down run-ups.

On Sep 19, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jan Mevis wrote:



[quote] 



 I concur with that, and I use my small mod only for starting up the

 aircraft. When needed I can add another prime or two, without  

 worrying that

 the aircraft might jump forward. You never know who might be foolish  

 enough

 to stand in front of the prop ... even after shouting a loud "prop  

 cleaar

 ...".



 Jan



 PS: I would NEVER leave an aircraft alone with a running engine, and  

 parking

 brakes set, like some do.



 --

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:54 am Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

If you're pulling them through from the middle third of the blades,  

you'll know if something's up.

On Sep 18, 2010, at 11:43 PM, William Halverson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <william(at)netpros.net>

 Oh .. no ... so I have to be infirm enough to _not_ be able to pull  

 the blades through now?   Maybe rig up a torque wrench somehow?



 Good God, time to trade her in for a lawn mower.



 Hal



 At 08:24 PM 9/18/2010, Yak Pilot wrote:

> 

>

> Actually, "when in doubt"  pull out the spark plugs and let the oil  

> drain.   It is actually quite easy to bend connecting rods just  

> using the prop as a lever.  So it is actually not all just about  

> how many times you pull the prop through, but also how you are  

> holding it, where you are holding it, how hard you are pulling it,  

> etc.

>

> Doc advocates letting it all come out of the sump drain. Others  

> recommend fixing the ball check valve.  Others recommend an oil  

> shut off valve.

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:56 am Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Nay, just get a flat head Lycoming if that fearful of hydraulic lock.

Between the options of installing an oil cutoff valve with an electrical

interrupter linked to the mag switch is a great idea. An electric sump pump

that is run at shutdown in conjunction with the oil cutoff valve is another

great idea also. Simply draining the sump after shutdown keeps with my

belief in the KISS principle. But, even the KISS principle can bite you on

the ass if you arrived at the field with you head behind the power curve.

Pouring the gallon of oil back into tank is an entertaining experience to

say the least after the plane that I thought did not have a problem with

its' internal oil check valve is enlightening to say the least. So much for

the IRAN experience. So, the bottom line simply is trust nothing to be

totally fail safe. Now saying that living by the kiss principle, having

intake drains installed, draining the sump, pulling a min of 12 blades,

priming the cylinder side with the intake drain stop cock open while

watching for more oil to run out, being patient while the oil drains out of

the intake drain, and then closing the intake drain followed by pulling 4

more blades has worked for me through the last sortie. Will it work for this

afternoon? I don't know but I hope so.

Bottom line, if the process works for you and meets the common sense sniff

test then use it at your own risk. The Russians wrote the checklist and

pilot's handbook based on their years of experience with these aircraft.

Those techniques are tried and tested but also remember there was a ground

crew to prep and launch the aircraft so not to many pilots were going in and

out of the cockpit to pull blades, prime and pull more blades. 

So since we all over time have learned what 70 to 80 lbs per cylinder X's a

min of 8 blades feels like if it starts to feel firmer as you are pulling

through STOP. Double check what you are doing. If you have an intake drain

make sure it is open. BUT, the best cure is open the cowl, pull the plugs,

and intake drain plugs. Now that can be simple or a real pain in the ass

depending on how complex you have gotten with the prevention of hydraulic

leak thing. Pulling plugs is however the definitive cure for hydraulic lock

though.

So, if it feels different to pull on the blade then stop and drain the

cylinders by pulling the plugs on the bottom cylinders. That way you know

for sure the hydraulic lock is cleared. Now granted, your O'Dark thirty

launch is going to be delayed for a couple hours while you do that though. 

Doc    



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:03 am Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Danged, guess I got lucky when my 74 came with a parking brake leaver on the

stick like those found in the back seat of a 52. Who says the experimental

show did not exist in the DOSAF?!

Doc



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:04 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Doc, I believe most 50's originally came with the "parking brake" feature, but they were REMOVED by the Russians, for some reason like our version of an "AD".  The man who would know all about that would be Richard Goode.  He knows ALL the different updates to that airplane!  I think there might have been a FOD or some other safety issues dealing with it.  That is a wild A__ guess based on something I read ages and ages ago.  Check with him. 

 

Wouldn't surprise me to find your aircraft unsafe.    HA!   Just kidding Doc!  

 

Jan, it is not an issue with me.  I have hydraulic TOE BRAKES.  They work even when the air pressure is at ZERO.  Make wheel landings MUCH easier.  Probably the best mod I have seen on this aircraft and the work FLAWLESSLY.  The mod also put on Cleveland wheels (I can now use Goodyear tires) and disk brakes.  

 

Mark

 



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Roger Kemp M.D.

Sent: Sun 9/19/2010 10:56 AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Oil shut-off valve






Danged, guess I got lucky when my 74 came with a parking brake leaver on the

stick like those found in the back seat of a 52. Who says the experimental

show did not exist in the DOSAF?!

Doc



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:20 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

See?  It's all a matter of personal approach.  I am 100 THOUSAND per cent sure Eric that this works for you.  ME?  I pull from the very END of the blade.  But as I come around into compression I am not really PULLING.  I am slowly with my fingertips inching it around very slowly FEELING for how much resistance it has.  For me, that lever advantage also adds to what I can feel with my fingertips.  It's all about experience and what works for "you".  There really is no "perfect way", but just what works... period.... tof the person involved.  I believe the utimate method is just being VERY CAREFUL and realize what can happen and what you are trying to "feel".  

Personally, I look just slightly askance at the "pull so and so many blades" for every single type of occasion.  It's not the number of blades really to me, other than to make sure all 9 cylinders have gone through at least one compression stroke of course, but rather how it feels as you are moving the prop through, and then how much oil I see coming out of the exhaust.  

It's hard to put experience into the written word.  

When it comes to this particular subject, there is so MUCH advice, a lot of it DIFFERENT, all of it technically CORRECT, and hard to figure out what is the "best way".  

I didn't know hydraulic "Lock" from the ones sold by the Master Company when I first got my airplane.  Now I know exactly what it feels like when I get even CLOSE to it. 

Hard to explain how I got there.  

Mark

________________________________

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Eric Wobschall

Sent: Sun 9/19/2010 6:51 AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Oil shut-off valve

If you're pulling them through from the middle third of the blades, 

you'll know if something's up.

On Sep 18, 2010, at 11:43 PM, William Halverson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <william(at)netpros.net>

 Oh .. no ... so I have to be infirm enough to _not_ be able to pull 

 the blades through now?   Maybe rig up a torque wrench somehow?

 Good God, time to trade her in for a lawn mower.

 Hal

 At 08:24 PM 9/18/2010, Yak Pilot wrote:

> 

>

> Actually, "when in doubt"  pull out the spark plugs and let the oil 

> drain.   It is actually quite easy to bend connecting rods just 

> using the prop as a lever.  So it is actually not all just about 

> how many times you pull the prop through, but also how you are 

> holding it, where you are holding it, how hard you are pulling it, 

> etc.

>

> Doc advocates letting it all come out of the sump drain. Others 

> recommend fixing the ball check valve.  Others recommend an oil 

> shut off valve.

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:50 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Eric, you probably won't like this and.. I am sorry for not agreeing, but I have to say I totally disagree with you in as polite a way as possible.   

 

If we stay with stock brakes in the YAK series aircraft that use COMPRESSED AIR to actuate the brakes, then when that compressed air goes away... your parking brake all of a sudden "isn't".   I have sitting in my hangar a spare YAK-50.  I don't advertise that fact much because everyone always wants to borrow parts off it, and sadly I have been burnt by a few folks doing that, so I simply will not do it anymore.  But the interesting thing is:  A guy got out to start that particular airplane with the parking brake on.   It starts.  The air was depleted from the system.  It started.  It ran at speed into a hangar and ripped the wings right off.  Picture/proof sitting in my hangar.  

 

Relying on parking brakes for the exact reasons you just mentioned has in my mind an element of danger that is not required.  

 

If "somehow the mags are on" there is also a the possibility that "somehow there is no air either", and that means no brakes.  

 

Chocks/chains/ropes  to me those are the only answers.  And preferably two out of three.  

 

My words are not going to change your opinion and they are not meant to.  Why I am writing this is simply to put a bigger picture into the view of the discussion.  

 

I think it carries a little bit of weight when someone says: "Parking Brakes can be dangerous, especially if you trust them to keep the airplane from moving when you are not in it".   When you give that as a "theory" warning, of course that is one thing and doesn't carry all that much of an impact.  

 

When you show pictures of one of the must beautiful YAKS ever out there, totally ruined by someone who relied on the parking brake ... it carries a lot more.  I look at that airplane all the time, and I guess that is why I am so much against parking brakes AT ALL.  But, I will readily admit to being overly cautious because of looking at that wreck every time I fly.  

 

Mark

 



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Eric Wobschall

Sent: Sun 9/19/2010 6:48 AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Oil shut-off valve






I agree that one should NEVER leave the aircraft when it's running 

(who does that, anyway?), but parking brakes have other purposes, such 

as, oh, PARKING (chocks not always available immediately, or needed 

for a short stay). Also, I always use the parking brake during pull 

through... especially when it might have been flown recently, because 

if somehow the mags are on (passengers anyone) and you failed to check 

it, at least the plane wont be advancing on you while it's trying to 

chop you up. Lastly, even though I'm in the plane, I set the parking 

brake during start-up and shut-down run-ups.

On Sep 19, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jan Mevis wrote:



[quote] 



 I concur with that, and I use my small mod only for starting up the

 aircraft. When needed I can add another prime or two, without 

 worrying that

 the aircraft might jump forward. You never know who might be foolish 

 enough

 to stand in front of the prop ... even after shouting a loud "prop 

 cleaar

 ...".



 Jan



 PS: I would NEVER leave an aircraft alone with a running engine, and 

 parking

 brakes set, like some do.



 --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:50 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Good idea Vic.  I'd personally like to know what you come up with as a solution if you don't mind telling.  I've looked at the same issue myself and have seen a number of solutions. 

 

Just because some might be interested, one of the best solutions I saw was with a lever you had to reach in with BY HAND through the back of the engine cowl in order to open the oil valve.  Now that by itself was not so hot, but what made it REALLY cool is that it was also hooked to a lever arm that caused a BIG BRIGHT RED ROUND ROD to come out the top of the cowl right in front of the pilots eyes.  Pretty darn hard to miss when starting the engine. 

 

My personal idea is:  

 

I don't like messing with the P leads, but one thought I had was to use a MECHANICAL SWITCH (no relays... although, yes, that would make it easier) and instead of using a small microswitch that interupted the starter switch (ala the other method) instead a hard wired mechanical switch that GROUNDS THE P LEADS!   If the oil lever is CLOSED the "P" leads are GROUNDED.  No oil, no engine start.  PERIOD.  

 

The only thing I don't like about that method is the idea of messing with the P leads.  One more thing to break on a system that is absolutely essential that it works correctly.  P leads are not something you really want to ever ground out on you accidentally.  

 

I have not come up with the exact parts for this idea.  But I think it might be worth thinking about some more.  

 

Shutting off the oil after flight goes a LONG way towards minimizing the liklihood of bad things happening, but all you have to do is screw up ONCE and good bye engine.  I'm trying to come up with a "fool proof design".  So far, I've failed.  

 

Mark

 



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Vic

Sent: Fri 9/17/2010 8:03 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Oil shut-off valve






Hello ,



thank you all for your feedback about some side effects of my setup. Quite frankly, I only had in mind to prevent starting the engine with oil valve closed. And no, I did not think about an emergency shutdown in case a mag or two remained hot because of a broken earth connection. I will keep the oil valve anyway but am thinking of a way to close the fuel tap individually, but both valves to open with a mechanical linkage. I do not like an electric workaround of this problem, as some say, wires and switches do break. Anyway I keep you posted.



Vic





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312804#312804

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:56 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Mark, I'm not confused about our relative experience levels, so I  

attribute full weight and value to your opinions. I can certainly see  

how disaster can happen when relying on parking brakes in different  

circumstances, and of course, judicious aircraft positioning is always  

wise during any start for that reason. However, I think there's some  

confusion here: You said "The guy got out". I am saying you should  

NEVER have a plane running without a pilot in it. I was ONLY referring  

to the routine pulling-though of the prop with the mags and ignition  

off (obviously not running) AND the parking brake on for extra safety.  

I have even been known to turn off mags in both cockpits. Only a very  

foolish person would hand-prop a plane that's out of the same air that  

actuates the brakes. Similarly foolish would be getting out of a plane  

while it's running.

I am also saying that when you're IN THE PLANE, it's good to have the  

parking brake on, as you might let off while concentrating on other  

cockpit tasks. If something goes wrong, you're in position to re-apply  

the brakes or cut the mags. Of course, this is not as necessary with  

toe brakes.

Third reason to use the parking brake: Until you find chocks or tie  

downs. Just in case there's any confusion, the search for chocks and  

tie downs would not be with the engine running.

On Sep 19, 2010, at 6:25 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  

MALS-14 64E wrote:

[quote] 

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

 Eric, you probably won't like this and.. I am sorry for not  

 agreeing, but I have to say I totally disagree with you in as polite  

 a way as possible.

 If we stay with stock brakes in the YAK series aircraft that use  

 COMPRESSED AIR to actuate the brakes, then when that compressed air  

 goes away... your parking brake all of a sudden "isn't".   I have  

 sitting in my hangar a spare YAK-50.  I don't advertise that fact  

 much because everyone always wants to borrow parts off it, and sadly  

 I have been burnt by a few folks doing that, so I simply will not do  

 it anymore.  But the interesting thing is:  A guy got out to start  

 that particular airplane with the parking brake on.   It starts.   

 The air was depleted from the system.  It started.  It ran at speed  

 into a hangar and ripped the wings right off.  Picture/proof sitting  

 in my hangar.

 Relying on parking brakes for the exact reasons you just mentioned  

 has in my mind an element of danger that is not required.

 If "somehow the mags are on" there is also a the possibility that  

 "somehow there is no air either", and that means no brakes.

 Chocks/chains/ropes  to me those are the only answers.  And  

 preferably two out of three.

 My words are not going to change your opinion and they are not meant  

 to.  Why I am writing this is simply to put a bigger picture into  

 the view of the discussion.

 I think it carries a little bit of weight when someone says:  

 "Parking Brakes can be dangerous, especially if you trust them to  

 keep the airplane from moving when you are not in it".   When you  

 give that as a "theory" warning, of course that is one thing and  

 doesn't carry all that much of an impact.

 When you show pictures of one of the must beautiful YAKS ever out  

 there, totally ruined by someone who relied on the parking brake ...  

 it carries a lot more.  I look at that airplane all the time, and I  

 guess that is why I am so much against parking brakes AT ALL.  But,  

 I will readily admit to being overly cautious because of looking at  

 that wreck every time I fly.

 Mark

 ________________________________

 From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Eric Wobschall

 Sent: Sun 9/19/2010 6:48 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Oil shut-off valve

 >

 I agree that one should NEVER leave the aircraft when it's running

 (who does that, anyway?), but parking brakes have other purposes, such

 as, oh, PARKING (chocks not always available immediately, or needed

 for a short stay). Also, I always use the parking brake during pull

 through... especially when it might have been flown recently, because

 if somehow the mags are on (passengers anyone) and you failed to check

 it, at least the plane wont be advancing on you while it's trying to

 chop you up. Lastly, even though I'm in the plane, I set the parking

 brake during start-up and shut-down run-ups.

 On Sep 19, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jan Mevis wrote:

> 

>

> I concur with that, and I use my small mod only for starting up the

> aircraft. When needed I can add another prime or two, without

> worrying that

> the aircraft might jump forward. You never know who might be foolish

> enough

> to stand in front of the prop ... even after shouting a loud "prop

> cleaar

> ...".

>

> Jan

>

> PS: I would NEVER leave an aircraft alone with a running engine, and

> parking

> brakes set, like some do.

>

> --

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:58 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Agreed. When you know what you're doing, you can certainly pull on the  

end of the blade. Just when you give dispensation, someone who's much  

stronger than usual will manage to break something.

On Sep 19, 2010, at 6:10 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  

MALS-14 64E wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

 See?  It's all a matter of personal approach.  I am 100 THOUSAND per  

 cent sure Eric that this works for you.  ME?  I pull from the very  

 END of the blade.  But as I come around into compression I am not  

 really PULLING.  I am slowly with my fingertips inching it around  

 very slowly FEELING for how much resistance it has.  For me, that  

 lever advantage also adds to what I can feel with my fingertips.   

 It's all about experience and what works for "you".  There really is  

 no "perfect way", but just what works... period.... tof the person  

 involved.  I believe the utimate method is just being VERY CAREFUL  

 and realize what can happen and what you are trying to "feel".

 Personally, I look just slightly askance at the "pull so and so many  

 blades" for every single type of occasion.  It's not the number of  

 blades really to me, other than to make sure all 9 cylinders have  

 gone through at least one compression stroke of course, but rather  

 how it feels as you are moving the prop through, and then how much  

 oil I see coming out of the exhaust.

 It's hard to put experience into the written word.

 When it comes to this particular subject, there is so MUCH advice, a  

 lot of it DIFFERENT, all of it technically CORRECT, and hard to  

 figure out what is the "best way".

 I didn't know hydraulic "Lock" from the ones sold by the Master  

 Company when I first got my airplane.  Now I know exactly what it  

 feels like when I get even CLOSE to it.

 Hard to explain how I got there.  

 Mark

 ________________________________

 From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Eric Wobschall

 Sent: Sun 9/19/2010 6:51 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Oil shut-off valve

 >

 If you're pulling them through from the middle third of the blades,

 you'll know if something's up.

 On Sep 18, 2010, at 11:43 PM, William Halverson wrote:

> 

> <william(at)netpros.net>

> Oh .. no ... so I have to be infirm enough to _not_ be able to pull

> the blades through now?   Maybe rig up a torque wrench somehow?

>

> Good God, time to trade her in for a lawn mower.

>

> Hal

>

> At 08:24 PM 9/18/2010, Yak Pilot wrote:

>> 

>>

>> Actually, "when in doubt"  pull out the spark plugs and let the oil

>> drain.   It is actually quite easy to bend connecting rods just

>> using the prop as a lever.  So it is actually not all just about

>> how many times you pull the prop through, but also how you are

>> holding it, where you are holding it, how hard you are pulling it,

>> etc.

>>

>> Doc advocates letting it all come out of the sump drain. Others

>> recommend fixing the ball check valve.  Others recommend an oil

>> shut off valve.

>

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:13 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

When a mag switch fails it fails to LIVE.  A broken "P" lead makes the mag. 

LIVE.

Pulling the prop through at mid blade is an invitation to eventual disaster.

Mark's procedure is the only correct one.



Walt

---

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:42 am Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

I'm reasonably sure that NO Yak 50s had a  "parking brake" from manufacture.

 Those that now do will usually have a  modified 52 brake lock fitted.

 Richard

  

 Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5  3LW

United Kingdom

  

 Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544  340129

www.russianaeros.com



 [quote]   ---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:15 am Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Copy Richard. Thanks. As I thought since my stick looks exactly like the one in the 52 RCP I assumed that some RU backyard engineering took place. Still a nice feature to have to starts and run ups. Again common sense must prevail. Start with brake locked, stick full aft, throttle  at idle or barily open, and run up to 70% for mag check after CHT/oil in normal range. Stick aft standard for tail draggers starts and runups.  

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode

 Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 3:38 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Oil shut-off valve  

  

  

     

I'm reasonably sure that NO Yak 50s had a "parking brake" from manufacture.  

    

Those that now do will usually have a modified 52 brake lock fitted.  

    

Richard  

    

   

    

Richard Goode Aerobatics

 Rhodds Farm

 Lyonshall

 Hereford

 HR5 3LW

 United Kingdom  

    

   

    

Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120

 Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129

 www.russianaeros.com  

  [quote]    

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)   

    

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 10:55 PM  

    

Subject: RE: Oil shut-off valve  

    

   

  

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

 

 Doc, I believe most 50's originally came with the "parking brake" feature, but they were REMOVED by the Russians, for some reason like our version of an "AD".  The man who would know all about that would be Richard Goode.  He knows ALL the different updates to that airplane!  I think there might have been a FOD or some other safety issues dealing with it.  That is a wild A__ guess based on something I read ages and ages ago.  Check with him. 

  

 Wouldn't surprise me to find your aircraft unsafe.    HA!   Just kidding Doc!  

  

 Jan, it is not an issue with me.  I have hydraulic TOE BRAKES.  They work even when the air pressure is at ZERO.  Make wheel landings MUCH easier.  Probably the best mod I have seen on this aircraft and the work FLAWLESSLY.  The mod also put on Cleveland wheels (I can now use Goodyear tires) and disk brakes.  

  

 Mark

  

 

 ________________________________

 

 From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) on behalf of Roger Kemp M.D.

 Sent: Sun 9/19/2010 10:56 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: RE: Oil shut-off valve

 

 

 

 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)>

 

 Danged, guess I got lucky when my 74 came with a parking brake leaver on the

 stick like those found in the back seat of a 52. Who says the experimental

 show did not exist in the DOSAF?!

 Doc

 

 --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:37 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

You are very clearly advocating the use of parking brakes and are convinced that you have good ideas for using them.  And there is no real right or wrong here, only a difference of opinion.  It is not about experience levels... I don't put myself up on any pedestal,  unless we are talking about a field I am a qualified professional in, and this is NOT one of them!  

That said:  

If you get out to do the "routine pulling of the prop" and you have a busted mag wire,  the airplane can start.  I would never trust my life to a parking brake.  Therefore anytime I am pulling a prop through, at the very minimum that are two sets of chocks under the tires.  That's just me, but I have seen blood all over the place and it kind of made a deep impression on me.  It also made a deep impression on that guys leg.    

For every point you make there is a counterpoint, just like mine to yours.  

If you set a parking brake so that you can concentrate on other things, you are TRUSTING a parking brake to ALLOW YOU to take your concentration off the airplane moving.  I don't happen to agree with that.  

Simply put, I just will never trust a parking brake.  Period. Not in any way.  That very clearly may be an over-reaction as I have said.  But... that is especially true when the parking brake relies on a system of continuous pressure, whether it be air or hydraulic.  I just do not trust a system like that.  You can, and more power to you!  I will not... and more power to me.  I chock the aircraft.  Period.   

Lastly, I also have to admit I have spent years aboard aircraft carriers.  Unless an aircraft is on the cat, there are guys shoving chocks under it every time it stops.  And everyone of them have parking brakes.   Same same on the flight line after shut-down.  

I like chocks.  I don't like parking brakes.  Not trying to change your mind at all.  Mine will never change.    

Mark

________________________________

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Eric Wobschall

Sent: Sun 9/19/2010 8:53 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Oil shut-off valve

Mark, I'm not confused about our relative experience levels, so I 

attribute full weight and value to your opinions. I can certainly see 

how disaster can happen when relying on parking brakes in different 

circumstances, and of course, judicious aircraft positioning is always 

wise during any start for that reason. However, I think there's some 

confusion here: You said "The guy got out". I am saying you should 

NEVER have a plane running without a pilot in it. I was ONLY referring 

to the routine pulling-though of the prop with the mags and ignition 

off (obviously not running) AND the parking brake on for extra safety. 

I have even been known to turn off mags in both cockpits. Only a very 

foolish person would hand-prop a plane that's out of the same air that 

actuates the brakes. Similarly foolish would be getting out of a plane 

while it's running.

I am also saying that when you're IN THE PLANE, it's good to have the 

parking brake on, as you might let off while concentrating on other 

cockpit tasks. If something goes wrong, you're in position to re-apply 

the brakes or cut the mags. Of course, this is not as necessary with 

toe brakes.

Third reason to use the parking brake: Until you find chocks or tie 

downs. Just in case there's any confusion, the search for chocks and 

tie downs would not be with the engine running.

On Sep 19, 2010, at 6:25 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, 

MALS-14 64E wrote:

[quote] 

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

 Eric, you probably won't like this and.. I am sorry for not 

 agreeing, but I have to say I totally disagree with you in as polite 

 a way as possible.

 If we stay with stock brakes in the YAK series aircraft that use 

 COMPRESSED AIR to actuate the brakes, then when that compressed air 

 goes away... your parking brake all of a sudden "isn't".   I have 

 sitting in my hangar a spare YAK-50.  I don't advertise that fact 

 much because everyone always wants to borrow parts off it, and sadly 

 I have been burnt by a few folks doing that, so I simply will not do 

 it anymore.  But the interesting thing is:  A guy got out to start 

 that particular airplane with the parking brake on.   It starts.  

 The air was depleted from the system.  It started.  It ran at speed 

 into a hangar and ripped the wings right off.  Picture/proof sitting 

 in my hangar.

 Relying on parking brakes for the exact reasons you just mentioned 

 has in my mind an element of danger that is not required.

 If "somehow the mags are on" there is also a the possibility that 

 "somehow there is no air either", and that means no brakes.

 Chocks/chains/ropes  to me those are the only answers.  And 

 preferably two out of three.

 My words are not going to change your opinion and they are not meant 

 to.  Why I am writing this is simply to put a bigger picture into 

 the view of the discussion.

 I think it carries a little bit of weight when someone says: 

 "Parking Brakes can be dangerous, especially if you trust them to 

 keep the airplane from moving when you are not in it".   When you 

 give that as a "theory" warning, of course that is one thing and 

 doesn't carry all that much of an impact.

 When you show pictures of one of the must beautiful YAKS ever out 

 there, totally ruined by someone who relied on the parking brake ... 

 it carries a lot more.  I look at that airplane all the time, and I 

 guess that is why I am so much against parking brakes AT ALL.  But, 

 I will readily admit to being overly cautious because of looking at 

 that wreck every time I fly.

 Mark

 ________________________________

 From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Eric Wobschall

 Sent: Sun 9/19/2010 6:48 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Oil shut-off valve

 >

 I agree that one should NEVER leave the aircraft when it's running

 (who does that, anyway?), but parking brakes have other purposes, such

 as, oh, PARKING (chocks not always available immediately, or needed

 for a short stay). Also, I always use the parking brake during pull

 through... especially when it might have been flown recently, because

 if somehow the mags are on (passengers anyone) and you failed to check

 it, at least the plane wont be advancing on you while it's trying to

 chop you up. Lastly, even though I'm in the plane, I set the parking

 brake during start-up and shut-down run-ups.

 On Sep 19, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jan Mevis wrote:

> 

>

> I concur with that, and I use my small mod only for starting up the

> aircraft. When needed I can add another prime or two, without

> worrying that

> the aircraft might jump forward. You never know who might be foolish

> enough

> to stand in front of the prop ... even after shouting a loud "prop

> cleaar

> ...".

>

> Jan

>

> PS: I would NEVER leave an aircraft alone with a running engine, and

> parking

> brakes set, like some do.

>

> --

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:26 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Logical. And of course, the Yak-52 was designed around the ground crew  

culture. Something for one to consider when you're by yourself.

On Sep 20, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  

MALS-14 64E wrote:



[quote] 

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



 You are very clearly advocating the use of parking brakes and are  

 convinced that you have good ideas for using them.  And there is no  

 real right or wrong here, only a difference of opinion.  It is not  

 about experience levels... I don't put myself up on any pedestal,   

 unless we are talking about a field I am a qualified professional  

 in, and this is NOT one of them!



 That said:



 If you get out to do the "routine pulling of the prop" and you have  

 a busted mag wire,  the airplane can start.  I would never trust my  

 life to a parking brake.  Therefore anytime I am pulling a prop  

 through, at the very minimum that are two sets of chocks under the  

 tires.  That's just me, but I have seen blood all over the place and  

 it kind of made a deep impression on me.  It also made a deep  

 impression on that guys leg.



 For every point you make there is a counterpoint, just like mine to  

 yours.



 If you set a parking brake so that you can concentrate on other  

 things, you are TRUSTING a parking brake to ALLOW YOU to take your  

 concentration off the airplane moving.  I don't happen to agree with  

 that.



 Simply put, I just will never trust a parking brake.  Period. Not in  

 any way.  That very clearly may be an over-reaction as I have said.   

 But... that is especially true when the parking brake relies on a  

 system of continuous pressure, whether it be air or hydraulic.  I  

 just do not trust a system like that.  You can, and more power to  

 you!  I will not... and more power to me.  I chock the aircraft.   

 Period.



 Lastly, I also have to admit I have spent years aboard aircraft  

 carriers.  Unless an aircraft is on the cat, there are guys shoving  

 chocks under it every time it stops.  And everyone of them have  

 parking brakes.   Same same on the flight line after shut-down.



 I like chocks.  I don't like parking brakes.  Not trying to change  

 your mind at all.  Mine will never change.  



 Mark



 ________________________________



 From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Eric Wobschall

 Sent: Sun 9/19/2010 8:53 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Oil shut-off valve



 

 >



 Mark, I'm not confused about our relative experience levels, so I

 attribute full weight and value to your opinions. I can certainly see

 how disaster can happen when relying on parking brakes in different

 circumstances, and of course, judicious aircraft positioning is always

 wise during any start for that reason. However, I think there's some

 confusion here: You said "The guy got out". I am saying you should

 NEVER have a plane running without a pilot in it. I was ONLY referring

 to the routine pulling-though of the prop with the mags and ignition

 off (obviously not running) AND the parking brake on for extra safety.

 I have even been known to turn off mags in both cockpits. Only a very

 foolish person would hand-prop a plane that's out of the same air that

 actuates the brakes. Similarly foolish would be getting out of a plane

 while it's running.



 I am also saying that when you're IN THE PLANE, it's good to have the

 parking brake on, as you might let off while concentrating on other

 cockpit tasks. If something goes wrong, you're in position to re-apply

 the brakes or cut the mags. Of course, this is not as necessary with

 toe brakes.



 Third reason to use the parking brake: Until you find chocks or tie

 downs. Just in case there's any confusion, the search for chocks and

 tie downs would not be with the engine running.





 On Sep 19, 2010, at 6:25 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,

 MALS-14 64E wrote:



> 

> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

>

> Eric, you probably won't like this and.. I am sorry for not

> agreeing, but I have to say I totally disagree with you in as polite

> a way as possible.

>

> If we stay with stock brakes in the YAK series aircraft that use

> COMPRESSED AIR to actuate the brakes, then when that compressed air

> goes away... your parking brake all of a sudden "isn't".   I have

> sitting in my hangar a spare YAK-50.  I don't advertise that fact

> much because everyone always wants to borrow parts off it, and sadly

> I have been burnt by a few folks doing that, so I simply will not do

> it anymore.  But the interesting thing is:  A guy got out to start

> that particular airplane with the parking brake on.   It starts.

> The air was depleted from the system.  It started.  It ran at speed

> into a hangar and ripped the wings right off.  Picture/proof sitting

> in my hangar.

>

> Relying on parking brakes for the exact reasons you just mentioned

> has in my mind an element of danger that is not required.

>

> If "somehow the mags are on" there is also a the possibility that

> "somehow there is no air either", and that means no brakes.

>

> Chocks/chains/ropes  to me those are the only answers.  And

> preferably two out of three.

>

> My words are not going to change your opinion and they are not meant

> to.  Why I am writing this is simply to put a bigger picture into

> the view of the discussion.

>

> I think it carries a little bit of weight when someone says:

> "Parking Brakes can be dangerous, especially if you trust them to

> keep the airplane from moving when you are not in it".   When you

> give that as a "theory" warning, of course that is one thing and

> doesn't carry all that much of an impact.

>

> When you show pictures of one of the must beautiful YAKS ever out

> there, totally ruined by someone who relied on the parking brake ...

> it carries a lot more.  I look at that airplane all the time, and I

> guess that is why I am so much against parking brakes AT ALL.  But,

> I will readily admit to being overly cautious because of looking at

> that wreck every time I fly.

>

> Mark

> ________________________________

>

> From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Eric Wobschall

> Sent: Sun 9/19/2010 6:48 AM

> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

> Subject: Re: Oil shut-off valve

>

> 

>>

>

> I agree that one should NEVER leave the aircraft when it's running

> (who does that, anyway?), but parking brakes have other purposes,  

> such

> as, oh, PARKING (chocks not always available immediately, or needed

> for a short stay). Also, I always use the parking brake during pull

> through... especially when it might have been flown recently, because

> if somehow the mags are on (passengers anyone) and you failed to  

> check

> it, at least the plane wont be advancing on you while it's trying to

> chop you up. Lastly, even though I'm in the plane, I set the parking

> brake during start-up and shut-down run-ups.

> On Sep 19, 2010, at 2:56 AM, Jan Mevis wrote:

>

>> 

>> <jan.mevis(at)informavia.be>

>>

>> I concur with that, and I use my small mod only for starting up the

>> aircraft. When needed I can add another prime or two, without

>> worrying that

>> the aircraft might jump forward. You never know who might be foolish

>> enough

>> to stand in front of the prop ... even after shouting a loud "prop

>> cleaar

>> ...".

>>

>> Jan

>>

>> PS: I would NEVER leave an aircraft alone with a running engine, and

>> parking

>> brakes set, like some do.

>>

>> --

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