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radiopicture
Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263
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 Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 1:42 pm Post subject: Tailslides |
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Oh, I know it...
On May 4, 2011, at 4:46 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E wrote:
[quote]
I wish I had written all that. Really an excellent analysis Eric.
Let me add one thing.
You said: "IMHO, the random application of the rules that were intended
for aircraft with standard airworthiness certificates to our planes
would be improvisational, overzealous and incorrect on the part of
regulatory officials."
You then said: " Yes, I feel lucky "
YOU ARE VERY VERY LUCKY INDEED ERIC! And just because it might be "
improvisational, overzealous and incorrect ", does NOT mean that someone
in the name of safety might decide to do EXACTLY THAT. In fact, IMHO,
'someone' already is.
Mark
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:31 pm Post subject: Tailslides |
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Thank you.
I knew better.
Talked to him, never met him. Sorry.
Mark
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:41 pm Post subject: Tailslides |
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Yes, I considered that immediately, but found out through a friend in
Lithuania that it will be very difficult finding someone who reads,
writes and understands English. Next would be Aerostar I guess.
Dennis
On 5/4/2011 4:11 PM, Didier Blouzard wrote:
[quote] Hey Yak people,
speaking is fine around a glass of beer...
Did anyone considered asking the Yakovlev Design Bureau in Moscow????
Whatever anyone can say if nothing happens all is well, but if there is
an accident due to a tailslide, then the justice will ask Yakovlev
Design Bureau
Then it will be their answer which will count.
So let's ask Yakovlev Design Bureau......that's probably the best move.
Best
2011/5/4 George Coy <george.coy(at)gmail.com <mailto:george.coy(at)gmail.com>>
<mailto:george.coy(at)gmail.com>>
Kind of reminds me of the Shakespearean play .... you guessed it a
comedy: "Much Ado About Nothing"
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tigeryak18t
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 233
Location: PARIS FRANCE
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: Tailslides |
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Our inspector could ask the question directly to them.
I'll find out and keep the List informed.
Best Dennis
Didier Blouzard
+33 6 2424 3672
Le 5 mai 2011 à 00:34, "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net> a écrit :
[quote]
Yes, I considered that immediately, but found out through a friend in Lithuania that it will be very difficult finding someone who reads, writes and understands English. Next would be Aerostar I guess.
Dennis
On 5/4/2011 4:11 PM, Didier Blouzard wrote:
> Hey Yak people,
> speaking is fine around a glass of beer...
> Did anyone considered asking the Yakovlev Design Bureau in Moscow????
> Whatever anyone can say if nothing happens all is well, but if there is
> an accident due to a tailslide, then the justice will ask Yakovlev
> Design Bureau
> Then it will be their answer which will count.
> So let's ask Yakovlev Design Bureau......that's probably the best move.
>
> Best
>
> 2011/5/4 George Coy <george.coy(at)gmail.com <mailto:george.coy(at)gmail.com>>
>
>
> <mailto:george.coy(at)gmail.com>>
>
> Kind of reminds me of the Shakespearean play .... you guessed it a
> comedy: "Much Ado About Nothing"
>
> --
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_________________
Didier Tiger YAK18T
Member of Commemorative Air Force
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czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 4:33 pm Post subject: Tailslides |
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Mark,
I don't dislike it or like it. I don't care what you have to say or don't have to say.
Have you proof that it is safe? Other than someone's word? Is it not better to error on the safe side?
I would venture to say that most Yak52 owners are not the hard acro type.
So like I said go have fun. Just having done a tail slide doesn't mean it's safe or not.
I think you should go out in your Yak 52 and do it. You do have a yak52 don't you?
It would be easy to own a different type airplane and tell your friends to get'er done in a yak52.
You are a scary angry guy.
Good luck. I could only aspire to be as good as you. And trust me, I don't care what acro you do.
Show me where it lists approved maneuvers. Just because it doesn't say you can't doesn't mean it's approved.
The book doesn't say you need wings, but something's are obvious.
I' not talking to the Waldo Peepers of the world. Just the rest of us.
On May 4, 2011, at 11:43 AM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:
[quote]
I need to answer your message Bill, and I don't think you are going to
life it very much..... sorry.
You say: "There must be a reason that so much conversation is generated
by this. Why would you want to do this during normal fun flying on a
clear beautiful day? Unless you have something to prove to yourself.
Cause No one else will care. "
The conversation is being generated because there is a sense that an
operating capability of an aircraft is being questioned based on a
source that is undocumented, with no named author, and I object to that.
As to what aerobatic maneuvers I do, or anyone else does, and why they
do them, that is a personal decision and needs no justification to you
or anyone else.
You say: "If it says in the manual, don't do it."
Agreed! However, I do not refer to a download from a web site as "A
MANUAL".
"If you believe something else, have at it. Go by yourself so the
innocent don't get hurt or run risk of getting hurt."
AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT! You can see ALREADY that
because someone has said: TAIL SLIDES ARE UNSAFE IN A YAK AIRCRAFT,
that now we have people saying what Bill just said above. It's a done
deal. It's unsafe. If you do it you're risking your life. And don't
do it with anyone else in the aircraft!
Not only is this gent saying HE is not going to do it, he is advising
OTHERS not to do it. That is just wrong.
"It's like paying taxes, the book says do it,"
What BOOK Bill? Have you got a copy handy?
"but there is always someone that pushes the envelope and tries to avoid
it. And in the end, a burial at sea."
I guess I will end up buried at Sea then... because I always push the
envelope which is why I fly a fully aerobatic aircraft. If you don't
want to, then that's your decision, but since you seem to be questioning
mine... I will ask you... why in the world do you own a YAK if all you
are going to do is fly it straight and level?
Take care,
Mark Bitterlich
On May 3, 2011, at 11:15 AM, "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>
wrote:
>
<viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>
>
> The translated RU pilots' manual states for the novice to avoid them.
> No insinuation of experience made with this post. Just stating the
> recommendations made by the guys that had the most experience.
> Doc
>
> --
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 5:30 pm Post subject: Tailslides |
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Tell Andre I said hello and hope to see him again in the future.
Dennis
On 5/4/2011 6:49 PM, Didier BLOUZARD wrote:
[quote]
Our inspector could ask the question directly to them.
I'll find out and keep the List informed.
Best Dennis
Didier Blouzard
+33 6 2424 3672
Le 5 mai 2011 à 00:34, "A. Dennis Savarese"<dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net> a écrit :
>
>
> Yes, I considered that immediately, but found out through a friend in Lithuania that it will be very difficult finding someone who reads, writes and understands English. Next would be Aerostar I guess.
> Dennis
>
> On 5/4/2011 4:11 PM, Didier Blouzard wrote:
>> Hey Yak people,
>> speaking is fine around a glass of beer...
>> Did anyone considered asking the Yakovlev Design Bureau in Moscow????
>> Whatever anyone can say if nothing happens all is well, but if there is
>> an accident due to a tailslide, then the justice will ask Yakovlev
>> Design Bureau
>> Then it will be their answer which will count.
>> So let's ask Yakovlev Design Bureau......that's probably the best move.
>>
>> Best
>>
>> 2011/5/4 George Coy<george.coy(at)gmail.com<mailto:george.coy(at)gmail.com>>
>>
>>
>> <mailto:george.coy(at)gmail.com>>
>>
>> Kind of reminds me of the Shakespearean play .... you guessed it a
>> comedy: "Much Ado About Nothing"
>>
>> --
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 7:13 pm Post subject: Tailslides |
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Cliff,
You are absolutely correct. I need to not try firing off quick responses with an office full of follow ups while running from room to room.
Dennis pointed that out to me also.
On the subject of tail slides unwound, If our refurbishers in Lithuania say the reason that tail slides are prohibited in the 52 is because of the ram horn counter weight being damaged and possibly jamming the bell crank is more than enough for me to decide not to bend the rules.
As the old adage goes: "In aviation, there are laws and there are rules. Rules can be broken in an emergency. Laws are another thing. The laws of physics can only be broken once. The offender usually pays dearly...possibly with their life."
To date, I have found that most of what the Russians said to do and not to do with their aircraft has pretty much held true. Granted there are some areas of improvement that have been done with some tweaking. The spark plug wire conversion and fuel bladders are just a couple that come to mind. The TD and TW are another. Basically though, the overall design of the aircraft has not changed nor has the experience gleaned by the thousands of DOSAFF students and instructors that preceded us. Of note, the Yakolev Design Bureau has signed off on the plug wire and the fuel bladders for use in Europe. Can't find anywhere yet where they signed off on the tail slide in their archives and POH's that I've been able to access.
Bend the rules to save your ass but don't break the laws. Old aviators don't get to be old by breaking the Laws.
Just my 2 cents.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On May 4, 2011, at 4:20 PM, "George Coy" <george.coy(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
B.T.W. that is LES Crowder.
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 7:29 pm Post subject: Tailslides |
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"Old aviators don't get to be old by breaking the Laws."
I like that saying! 
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 5/4/2011 11:14:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, viperdoc(at)mindspring.com writes:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>
Cliff,
You are absolutely correct. I need to not try firing off quick responses with an office full of follow ups while running from room to room.
Dennis pointed that out to me also.
On the subject of tail slides unwound, If our refurbishers in Lithuania say the reason that tail slides are prohibited in the 52 is because of the ram horn counter weight being damaged and possibly jamming the bell crank is more than enough for me to decide not to bend the rules.
As the old adage goes: "In aviation, there are laws and there are rules. Rules can be broken in an emergency. Laws are another thing. The laws of physics can only be broken once. The offender usually pays dearly...possibly with their life."
To date, I have found that most of what the Russians said to do and not to do with their aircraft has pretty much held true. Granted there are some areas of improvement that have been done with some tweaking. The spark plug wire conversion and fuel bladders are just a couple that come to mind. The TD and TW are another. Basically though, the overall design of the aircraft has not changed nor has the experience gleaned by the thousands of DOSAFF students and instructors that preceded us. Of note, the Yakolev Design Bureau has signed off on the plug wire and the fuel bladders for use in Europe. Can't find anywhere yet where they signed off on the tail slide in their archives and POH's that I've been able to access.
Bend the rules to save your ass but don't break the laws. Old aviators don't get to be old by breaking the Laws.
Just my 2 cents.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On May 4, 2011, at 4:20 PM, "George Coy" <george.coy(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote] --> Yak-List message posted by: "George Coy" <george.coy(at)gmail.com>
B.T.W. that is LES Crowder.
--
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 8:48 am Post subject: Tailslides |
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Bill, it is very tempting to address your comments, and believe me ...
as everyone knows, I am well prepared to get into a verbal contest with
anyone that wants to take me on, but it just is really
counter-productive in the end.
In case the whole point got thrown out with the trash, my inputs on this
matter have been made in an attempt to HELP owners of these types of
aircraft, not to make a issue of who is right and who is wrong.
Let me demonstrate to a small degree by making this point if I may. If
you take a YAK-52 and establish a 45 degree up line with full power
applied and then at a certain airspeed rapidly take the stick and go
hard left front and full right rudder in exactly the right order, you
can actually make a YAK-52 perform a tumble. This figure is not listed
in any manual I have ever seen for any of the YAK's. It is also rather
hard on motor mounts and the front bearing prop seal on the M-14 motor.
Given these stresses, some folks might consider it to be an unsafe
maneuver. If someone writes an article and some official somewhere in
the world decides to believe it, it could very easily be outlawed.
What I am trying to make a point of is that just because someone,
somewhere, somehow, decides to make a decision like that, does not
necessarily mean it's accurate. More and to the point, such an action
should never be imposed on everyone else on the planet without careful
consideration and may I say: HARD PROOF on the matter at hand.
That said, this whole discussion also focuses on the difference between
what is required under Part 43 of the FAR's and what is required for
Experimental Aircraft. I submit that every Experimental Aircraft owner
(in the USA anyway) should be a member of the EAA. In addition we must
all be ready willing and able to defend any infringement what-so-ever on
the aircraft, and the flying that these aircraft allow us to do, and not
just the ones we happen to enjoy ourselves at the moment.
Mark Bitterlich
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