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graeme.hart(at)onecoolkat
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 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:52 pm Post subject: Fwd: Do you recognise this cockpit mod |
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Hi Alan
It is a trigear and came as a trigear from the factory.
It looks to me like the plan was to put a removable panel on the top.
I have attached a better picture. On 7/07/2016 11:14 pm, "Alan Burrill" <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk (alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk)> wrote: | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk (alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk)>
Tri-Gear or Monowheel?
Alan
GOBJT
> On 7 Jul 2016, at 11:35, Graeme Hart <graeme.hart(at)onecoolkat.com (graeme.hart(at)onecoolkat.com)> wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> I have a kit that started out around 1999 and has been worked on by a number of builder since them.
>
> Does anyone recognise the mod that has been done to the cockpit. A lot of the top of the centre console has been cut out and reinforced around the edges.
>
> I'm hoping that this is a recognised mod and someone can point me at documentation on what was intended.
>
> A picture of part of the cutout section is below (sorry I don't have one of the entire cutout)
>
> I'd appreciate any leads on how this mod is intended to work. Also, with this large hole in the top do you still need the fuel valve access panel?
>
>
> Thanks
> Graeme
> <20160705_174300.jpg>
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| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:50 pm Post subject: Fwd: Do you recognise this cockpit mod |
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Hi Graeme,
I don't like to be the bearer of bad news but that mod was not (and never will be) approved in the UK. The centre tunnel is a critical structural component and by removing such a huge area of the box section, most of the strength will have been removed with it. If it is your intention to build the airframe to flying condition, I would suggest involving your inspector (one with proven composite skills) to advise on reconstructing the tunnel.
The Europa has no longeron like structures forward of the seat moulding and it is only the tunnel that prevents the fuselage snapping off in the event of a high "G" arrival. Typically, the fracture initiates at the sharp corner at the lower edge of the windscreen, propagates down the fuselage sides and across the floor. I have attached a picture of such a failure to help concentrate the mind (I have more!).
Nigel
On 07/07/2016 21:51, Graeme Hart wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Alan
It is a trigear and came as a trigear from the factory.
It looks to me like the plan was to put a removable panel on the top.
I have attached a better picture. On 7/07/2016 11:14 pm, "Alan Burrill" <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk (alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk)> wrote: | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk (alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk)>
Tri-Gear or Monowheel?
Alan
GOBJT
> On 7 Jul 2016, at 11:35, Graeme Hart <graeme.hart(at)onecoolkat.com (graeme.hart(at)onecoolkat.com)> wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> I have a kit that started out around 1999 and has been worked on by a number of builder since them.
>
> Does anyone recognise the mod that has been done to the cockpit. A lot of the top of the centre console has been cut out and reinforced around the edges.
>
> I'm hoping that this is a recognised mod and someone can point me at documentation on what was intended.
>
> A picture of part of the cutout section is below (sorry I don't have one of the entire cutout)
>
> I'd appreciate any leads on how this mod is intended to work. Also, with this large hole in the top do you still need the fuel valve access panel?
>
>
> Thanks
> Graeme
> <20160705_174300.jpg>
|
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| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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| Description: |
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423.37 KB |
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5092 Time(s) |
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graeme.hart(at)onecoolkat
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:18 pm Post subject: Fwd: Do you recognise this cockpit mod |
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Thanks Nigel
While that is bad news it is also good news in that I'm only starting the build so it shouldn't be too hard to fix compared with attempting to fix when ready to fly.
I am in New Zealand and with our smaller population it is a little harder to find people with the experience your inspectors have. We also have a much simpler inspection regime.
I'll contact the Europa factory and get their advice on how to reinstate the structure. Hopefully it will just be a matter of reinstating the missing structure with a flat panel with an appropriate number of plys and a suitable overlap/bonding to the edges.
On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:48 AM, nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk) <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Graeme,
I don't like to be the bearer of bad news but that mod was not (and never will be) approved in the UK. The centre tunnel is a critical structural component and by removing such a huge area of the box section, most of the strength will have been removed with it. If it is your intention to build the airframe to flying condition, I would suggest involving your inspector (one with proven composite skills) to advise on reconstructing the tunnel.
The Europa has no longeron like structures forward of the seat moulding and it is only the tunnel that prevents the fuselage snapping off in the event of a high "G" arrival. Typically, the fracture initiates at the sharp corner at the lower edge of the windscreen, propagates down the fuselage sides and across the floor. I have attached a picture of such a failure to help concentrate the mind (I have more!).
Nigel
On 07/07/2016 21:51, Graeme Hart wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Alan
It is a trigear and came as a trigear from the factory.
It looks to me like the plan was to put a removable panel on the top.
I have attached a better picture. On 7/07/2016 11:14 pm, "Alan Burrill" <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk (alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk)> wrote: | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk (alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk)>
Tri-Gear or Monowheel?
Alan
GOBJT
> On 7 Jul 2016, at 11:35, Graeme Hart <graeme.hart(at)onecoolkat.com (graeme.hart(at)onecoolkat.com)> wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> I have a kit that started out around 1999 and has been worked on by a number of builder since them.
>
> Does anyone recognise the mod that has been done to the cockpit. A lot of the top of the centre console has been cut out and reinforced around the edges.
>
> I'm hoping that this is a recognised mod and someone can point me at documentation on what was intended.
>
> A picture of part of the cutout section is below (sorry I don't have one of the entire cutout)
>
> I'd appreciate any leads on how this mod is intended to work. Also, with this large hole in the top do you still need the fuel valve access panel?
>
>
> Thanks
> Graeme
> <20160705_174300.jpg>
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| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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tonyvaccarella
Joined: 10 Sep 2014
Posts: 68
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:55 am Post subject: Do you recognise this cockpit mod |
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Hi Graeme,
Its not often I can contribute tot his forum but I might be able to help in this case. I too purchased a project (from the USA) that has a similar cut out.
It is a conventional tailwheel format (without the monowheel). My understanding is that the reason for the cut-out is for comfort and ability to have some of the controls (throttle, brakes, and fuel selector) more accessible.
Please see the images attached that will help to explain this.
My aircraft is a long way from finished but I will need to re-enforce the cutout as it was mentioned to me that the cockpit module is an integral and structural part of the aircraft.
I hope this helps.
Best regards
Tony
Sydney
Australia
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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| Description: |
| Centre Console with covering |
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43.85 KB |
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5072 Time(s) |
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| Description: |
| Cutout in the center console |
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_________________
Tony Vaccarella
Mascot NSW 2020
Sydney Australia |
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steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:21 am Post subject: Fwd: Do you recognise this cockpit mod |
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Graeme and Tony,
Forgive my intervention in case you have already gone down this path.
There is already an approved mod for the centre tunnel as follows
http://www.theeuropaclub.org/for-builders/europa-mods-sbs/laa-all-of-type/
and look for mod 10601.
Whilst this does not look the same as your cutouts, it may give you some
hints as to what can be done, how it needs to be restrengthened and the fact
that it passed the LAA Approval process. AFAIK there was only one aircraft
modified in this way (G-IANI) but hopefully it will help you to decide what
to do.
Two other reflections on Graeme's photo.
I notice that you do not have the bulkhead installed behind the nosewheel
frame. This was omitted from some early manuals and it is worth doing.
Secondly, I wonder if this mod was done so as not to have to get in under
the aircraft for maintenance. I have a trigear and used the space previously
allocated to the mono wheel to get to fuel pumps, pipework etc and this does
not weaken the centre tunnel structure.
Come back if you need more info.
Regards
Steve Pitt
Chairman, Europa Club
G-SMDH Europa Trigear xs 912s
---
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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tonyvaccarella
Joined: 10 Sep 2014
Posts: 68
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:47 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Do you recognise this cockpit mod |
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Hi Steven,
Thank you for making me aware of this mod. I will work with the recommendations made in the modification and feel much happier that its approved.
FYI - the mod is listed at 10601 as you mention in your post but the document states mod 11601 on the top right of the document. You might want to correct this.
Best regards
Tony Vaccarella
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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_________________
Tony Vaccarella
Mascot NSW 2020
Sydney Australia |
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graeme.hart(at)onecoolkat
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:00 am Post subject: Fwd: Do you recognise this cockpit mod |
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Thanks Tony, your picture looks very similar to mine. Mine was a US project too although I purchased it in NZ from the guy who imported it from US.
Thanks Steve, I didn't think of looking at LAA mods. Mod 10601 looks very promising and I gain the benefit of some storage space. I could even install a couple of cupholders here 
I've looked at the latest online build manual on the Europa site (chapter 11 of the build manual) and I note that it says that the bulkhead is for monowheel only.
Can you tell us the advantage of installing the bulkhead for trigear aircraft.
I have also emailed Europa directly asking for their advice.
Thanks
Graeme
On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:20 PM, Steven Pitt <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com (steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "Steven Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com (steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com)>
Graeme and Tony,
Forgive my intervention in case you have already gone down this path.
There is already an approved mod for the centre tunnel as follows http://www.theeuropaclub.org/for-builders/europa-mods-sbs/laa-all-of-type/ and look for mod 10601.
Whilst this does not look the same as your cutouts, it may give you some hints as to what can be done, how it needs to be restrengthened and the fact that it passed the LAA Approval process. AFAIK there was only one aircraft modified in this way (G-IANI) but hopefully it will help you to decide what to do.
Two other reflections on Graeme's photo.
I notice that you do not have the bulkhead installed behind the nosewheel frame. This was omitted from some early manuals and it is worth doing.
Secondly, I wonder if this mod was done so as not to have to get in under the aircraft for maintenance. I have a trigear and used the space previously allocated to the mono wheel to get to fuel pumps, pipework etc and this does not weaken the centre tunnel structure.
Come back if you need more info.
Regards
Steve Pitt
Chairman, Europa Club
G-SMDH Europa Trigear xs 912s
---
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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