Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Using E-10 in IO-540

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
docclv(at)windstream.net
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:15 am    Post subject: Using E-10 in IO-540 Reply with quote

Other than deteriorating the mechanical fuel pump parts and perhaps the
fuel sensor, (I assume the tank factory sealer is alcohol proof) is
there any reason why E-10 could not be burned in the parallel 540 with
8.5 : 1 as all the plumbing is aluminum tubing? Does any one know when
mechanical fuel pumps were made alcohol proof? Doc


- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
Back to top
flyboy(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:36 am    Post subject: Using E-10 in IO-540 Reply with quote

I'd be really worried about the vapor pressure.  I run 91 unleaded with the Peterson STC in my Cherokee 180 and have had a couple instances where the fuel starts boiling in the float bowl on takeoff.  Happened on hot days, but the plane was unflyable when it happened.  I could make it run with a severely leaned mixture, but only at lower power settings. And that's with ethanol free unleaded.  I'd suspect that E-10 is likely to have an even higher vapor pressure than E-0.  I now keep one tank with at least half 100LL in it when it's hot out.  It's never a problem after takeoff.  Obviously things are different with the higher pressures of a fuel injection system, but unless you have a fuel return line you might have problems...

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:19 AM Doc <docclv(at)windstream.net (docclv(at)windstream.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Doc <docclv(at)windstream.net (docclv(at)windstream.net)>

Other than deteriorating the mechanical fuel pump parts and perhaps the
fuel sensor, (I assume the tank factory sealer is alcohol proof) is
there any reason why E-10 could not be burned in the parallel 540 with
8.5 : 1 as all the plumbing is aluminum tubing?  Does any one know when
mechanical fuel pumps were made alcohol proof?  Doc
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========





- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
Back to top
Ceengland



Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 378
Location: MS

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:33 am    Post subject: Using E-10 in IO-540 Reply with quote

On 9/19/2021 12:15 PM, Doc wrote:
Quote:


Other than deteriorating the mechanical fuel pump parts and perhaps
the fuel sensor, (I assume the tank factory sealer is alcohol proof)
is there any reason why E-10 could not be burned in the parallel 540
with 8.5 : 1 as all the plumbing is aluminum tubing?  Does any one
know when mechanical fuel pumps were made alcohol proof?  Doc
My conversation with the factory tech was over a decade ago, and he said

that the materials had been updated for several years prior to our
conversation. He was very open in discussing the matter verbally on the
phone at that time, but it was pretty clear (for obvious liability
reasons) that it wouldn't be put in writing. I wish I could give you a
date, but I don't remember him giving a specific date. He basically said
that the change was driven by the fact that the original materials just
weren't available any more. Since those pumps are derived from (likely
identical to, in some cases) automotive and other ground/water bound
engine pumps, my interpretation was that the diaphragm makers had all
switched to E-tolerant materials for the much larger ground-bound market.

My personal opinion (I'm not a chemist or materials guy) is that there's
little risk to aluminum from 10% gasohol as long as water is kept out of
the mix. That's based on reading a fair amount of stuff written by
people who are supposed to be experts in the field and aren't
particularly susceptible to aviation old hangar tales, so are just
looking at the chemistry. There's a lot written about the subject if you
do an internet search for something like, 'will ethanol attack
aluminum', and filter out the random forum posts from people who give
'first hand accounts' without full disclosure of all factors, like a
half full tank sitting open to the air for 2 years unused, and then
finding corrosion inside. The papers that do talk about aluminum
reacting to ethanol seem to be talking about storing near-pure ethanol;
not 10% gasohol. There was a 'squadron' of RVs from one of the corn belt
states a number of years ago that were flying on something like E-95;
near pure ethanol, to promote ethanol use. No idea on what, if anything,
they did to protect aluminum tanks/lines.

Not sure which fuel sensor would be susceptible. The Floscan flow
sensors are used in all sorts of non-flying applications, as are
traditional & newer 3wire fuel pressure sensors.

FWIW,

Charlie

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

_________________
Charlie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ceengland



Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 378
Location: MS

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:41 am    Post subject: Using E-10 in IO-540 Reply with quote

My one problem was also with a carb'd engine. I agree that it's more difficult, with narrower margins, when running a carb. But remember, the 'vapor pressure' even on the worst gas is around 13psi (at)100 degrees. So the pressure in an injected engine is way higher than that, all the way to the spider. Individual injector lines have very little pressure, but the mixture lever seems to be able to account for any remaining issues. Electronic injection maintains 40psi+ all the way to the injectors. More and more alt engine guys are running 'dead end' systems, with the regulator behind the firewall and only fuel going into the engine ever sees the hot side of the firewall. All modern cars I'm aware of use dead end fuel systems.

 Charlie

On 9/19/2021 12:35 PM, Berck E. Nash wrote:

Quote:
I'd be really worried about the vapor pressure.  I run 91 unleaded with the Peterson STC in my Cherokee 180 and have had a couple instances where the fuel starts boiling in the float bowl on takeoff.  Happened on hot days, but the plane was unflyable when it happened.  I could make it run with a severely leaned mixture, but only at lower power settings. And that's with ethanol free unleaded.  I'd suspect that E-10 is likely to have an even higher vapor pressure than E-0.  I now keep one tank with at least half 100LL in it when it's hot out.  It's never a problem after takeoff.  Obviously things are different with the higher pressures of a fuel injection system, but unless you have a fuel return line you might have problems...

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:19 AM Doc <docclv(at)windstream.net (docclv(at)windstream.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Doc <docclv(at)windstream.net (docclv(at)windstream.net)>

Other than deteriorating the mechanical fuel pump parts and perhaps the
fuel sensor, (I assume the tank factory sealer is alcohol proof) is
there any reason why E-10 could not be burned in the parallel 540 with
8.5 : 1 as all the plumbing is aluminum tubing?  Does any one know when
mechanical fuel pumps were made alcohol proof?  Doc


Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]


- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

_________________
Charlie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kelly McMullen



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:12 pm    Post subject: Using E-10 in IO-540 Reply with quote

The problem with alcohol is that it absorbs moisture really well. The purest you can buy at the drug store is 91%, because it isn't economical to get the rest of the moisture out. After it sits in your tank, even in Arizona, for a few days it is likely to be down to 70% or less. At those ratios it can start corroding your aluminum. I don't know that proseal is all that alcohol resistant. Mooney puts a sealer over the proseal to protect it but you RV tanks are just straight proseal. Older versions of proseal would soften up a lot when exposed to mogas. I think the current stuff is okay with mogas, but still wouldn't use 91 or 93 pump gas unless it would be consumed in a single flight, within a few days, whether it had alcohol or not.
Quote:


On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:19 AM Doc <docclv(at)windstream.net (docclv(at)windstream.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Doc <docclv(at)windstream.net (docclv(at)windstream.net)>

Other than deteriorating the mechanical fuel pump parts and perhaps the
fuel sensor, (I assume the tank factory sealer is alcohol proof) is
there any reason why E-10 could not be burned in the parallel 540 with
8.5 : 1 as all the plumbing is aluminum tubing?  Does any one know when
mechanical fuel pumps were made alcohol proof?  Doc
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========





- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:45 am    Post subject: Using E-10 in IO-540 Reply with quote

Kelly(I couldn’t resist)
The problem with alcohol is if it gets its way to the pilot brain…
Carlos
Enviado do meu iPhone

Quote:
No dia 20/09/2021, às 03:18, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> escreveu:

The problem with alcohol is that it absorbs moisture really well. The purest you can buy at the drug store is 91%, because it isn't economical to get the rest of the moisture out. After it sits in your tank, even in Arizona, for a few days it is likely to be down to 70% or less. At those ratios it can start corroding your aluminum. I don't know that proseal is all that alcohol resistant. Mooney puts a sealer over the proseal to protect it but you RV tanks are just straight proseal. Older versions of proseal would soften up a lot when exposed to mogas. I think the current stuff is okay with mogas, but still wouldn't use 91 or 93 pump gas unless it would be consumed in a single flight, within a few days, whether it had alcohol or not.
Quote:


On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:19 AM Doc <docclv(at)windstream.net (docclv(at)windstream.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Doc <docclv(at)windstream.net (docclv(at)windstream.net)>

Other than deteriorating the mechanical fuel pump parts and perhaps the
fuel sensor, (I assume the tank factory sealer is alcohol proof) is
there any reason why E-10 could not be burned in the parallel 540 with
8.5 : 1 as all the plumbing is aluminum tubing? Does any one know when
mechanical fuel pumps were made alcohol proof? Doc
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========







- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group