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Propeller choice - Whirlwind?

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johnwigney(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: Propeller choice - Whirlwind?

Dear Europaphiles,



There has been quite a bit of discussion lately regarding choice of 

propeller. If you have not bought your prop yet, you may wish to 

consider a Whirlwind hydraulic constant speed prop. See 

http://www.whirlwindaviation.com/series100.php



I  have flown 500 + hours with mine from new and have found it to be 

highly reliable and it gives excellent performance. It is also one of 

the lightest props available with a weight of 9.3 lbs. I bought it after 

hearing Kim Prout at Oshkosh many years ago. Paraphrasing, he said that 

it was the most significant single contribution to the performance of 

his Europa. I believe that the Series 100 Whirlwind prop was designed 

specifically for the Europa and for details of the performance of Kim's 

plane, you can see the CAFE report at 

http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pdf_apr/Europa%20APR.pdf  As you will see, 

Kim's Europa Classic with the 80 HP 912 is no slouch. For take-off, I 

set the vernier control to max which gives 5,800 rpm and after take-off, 

one can easily wind back to 5,500 rpm while remaining at full throttle. 

I normally cruise at settings between 5,100 and 5,500 rpm.



To install this prop on a 912/ 912S/914, you must have the gearbox 

modification which allows the governor to supply control pressure oil to 

the hollow drive shaft. It is preferable to specify this before you take 

delivery of the engine. The Czech made Jihostroj governor which is 

supplied as part of the package has proved to be completely reliable and 

is very accurate. The governor mounts on the engine auxiliary pad which 

is normally used for a vacuum pump, so one has to rely on non-vacuum 

instruments.



I have no business relationship with Whirlwind. Please contact if you 

have any questions.



Cheers, John



N262WF, mono XS, 912S



Mooresville, North Carolina

704-664-4167

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: Propeller choice - Whirlwind?

John...thank you for putting your oar in. I note the Whirlwind series 

100 is 66" diameter...How do you feel about that size?...Are you mono 

or trigear?...How do you rate the WW noise level?



Fred



On Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 07:59  AM, John & Paddy Wigney wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <johnwigney(at)alltel.net>



 Dear Europaphiles,



 There has been quite a bit of discussion lately regarding choice of 

 propeller. If you have not bought your prop yet, you may wish to 

 consider a Whirlwind hydraulic constant speed prop. See 

 http://www.whirlwindaviation.com/series100.php




	




-- 

This message has been scanned for viruses and

dangerous content by MailScanner, and is

believed to be clean.

asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: Propeller choice - Whirlwind?

Thanks for that information. Whirl Wind is local for me (Ohio), and I

had not realized that their 100-series prop was designed for the

Europa. It looks like the photo on their website is also that of the

Europa. But I am a bit uneasy about modifying the 914's oil system, and

also about losing the auxilary pad (which I had planned for a second

alternator). I spoke to Whirl Wind and they said an electric governor

is a possibility, but I did not press him for details.



--- John & Paddy Wigney <johnwigney(at)alltel.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <johnwigney(at)alltel.net>

 

 Dear Europaphiles,

 

 There has been quite a bit of discussion lately regarding choice of 

 propeller. If you have not bought your prop yet, you may wish to 

 consider a Whirlwind hydraulic constant speed prop. See 

 http://www.whirlwindaviation.com/series100.php

 

 I  have flown 500 + hours with mine from new and have found it to be 

 highly reliable and it gives excellent performance. It is also one of

 

 the lightest props available with a weight of 9.3 lbs. I bought it

 after 

 hearing Kim Prout at Oshkosh many years ago. Paraphrasing, he said

 that 

 it was the most significant single contribution to the performance of

 

 his Europa. I believe that the Series 100 Whirlwind prop was designed

 

 specifically for the Europa and for details of the performance of

 Kim's 

 plane, you can see the CAFE report at 

 http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pdf_apr/Europa%20APR.pdf  As you will

 see, 

 Kim's Europa Classic with the 80 HP 912 is no slouch. For take-off, I

 

 set the vernier control to max which gives 5,800 rpm and after

 take-off, 

 one can easily wind back to 5,500 rpm while remaining at full

 throttle. 

 I normally cruise at settings between 5,100 and 5,500 rpm.

 

 To install this prop on a 912/ 912S/914, you must have the gearbox 

 modification which allows the governor to supply control pressure oil

 to 

 the hollow drive shaft. It is preferable to specify this before you

 take 

 delivery of the engine. The Czech made Jihostroj governor which is 

 supplied as part of the package has proved to be completely reliable

 and 

 is very accurate. The governor mounts on the engine auxiliary pad

 which 

 is normally used for a vacuum pump, so one has to rely on non-vacuum 

 instruments.

 

 I have no business relationship with Whirlwind. Please contact if you

 

 have any questions.

 

 Cheers, John

 

 N262WF, mono XS, 912S

 

 Mooresville, North Carolina

 704-664-4167

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 4:13 am Post subject: Propeller choice - Whirlwind?

Andrew Sarangan a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks for that information. Whirl Wind is local for me (Ohio), and I

 had not realized that their 100-series prop was designed for the

 Europa. It looks like the photo on their website is also that of the

 Europa. But I am a bit uneasy about modifying the 914's oil system, and

 also about losing the auxilary pad (which I had planned for a second

 alternator). I spoke to Whirl Wind and they said an electric governor

 is a possibility, but I did not press him for details.

   


	


Andrew and all,



Here are some thoughts :



- The 91X series drive pad does not turn fast enough to provide 

significant output from available alternators. You won't have more than 

about 12 amps.

Here is a more efficient way to add an alternator (French only at the 

moment I'm afraid...). The original idea is from a Europa builder.

http://contrails.free.fr/elec_second_alternateur.php



- According to the feedback from numerous CS prop owners, an electric 

prop is much more troublesome than a hydraulic one. Most of them are to 

slow to be actually constant speed.



- Concerning the PV 50 blades, no wonder they are so good : they were 

originally designed for the MCR/Ban-Bi by French aerodynamicist Michel 

Colomban. 



- By the way, no one seems to mention the MT Propeller designs with 

Colomban blades, used on the MCR 4S. The aircraft size, weight and speed 

are similar to the Europa.



FWIW,

Regards,

Gilles Thesee

http://contrails.free.fr

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 4:43 am Post subject: Propeller choice - Whirlwind?

Gilles

I didn't know that! I'm niot surorised Colomban did the design.

The problem with MT is the cost and weight. I haven't seen the one for 

the MCR4s, is that lighter?

Graham



Gilles Thesee wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr>


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 - Concerning the PV 50 blades, no wonder they are so good : they were 

 originally designed for the MCR/Ban-Bi by French aerodynamicist Michel 

 Colomban.

 - By the way, no one seems to mention the MT Propeller designs with 

 Colomban blades, used on the MCR 4S. The aircraft size, weight and speed 

 are similar to the Europa.

 

 FWIW,

 Regards,

 Gilles Thesee

 http://contrails.free.fr

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


	


-- 

Graham Singleton



Tel: +441629820187

Mob: +447739582005

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 5:04 am Post subject: Re: Propeller choice - Now Alternator at pump site

Giles and all,



The alternator which I obtained from FlightCrafters mounts

on the take-off spline from the gearbox and provides at least

20 Amps to my system at cruise (5000 rpm). Perhaps more,

I have not loaded it more. It is rated at 35-40 A.



The alternator is a Denso model used in the old Geo Metro 3 Cyl

and has had its faceplate machined to fit on the Rotax's gear box

with four bolts



Ira

_________________
Ira N224XS

kpaviat(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 6:15 am Post subject: Propeller choice - Whirlwind?

Hello Graham! Interesting discussion on the Whirlwind. The CAFÉ report was

done with the original design blades but Jim wasn't completely satisfied

with that so he redesigned the airfoil and twist to get better performance.

The "numbers" changed quite a bit increasing climb rate by over 100 fpm and

shortening take off roll by 100 feet. This is the current design supplied by

Whirlwind as far as I know.... And yes, it was the single best performance

enhancement I ever made to N111EU. It is more complex than just bolting on

the Airmaster but I like that the weight (and rotating mass) is so minimal.

My installed weight including governer, cable control, spinner and backing

plates and of course, the propeller assembly came in at 13.5 lbs. Anyway,

have a great summer! I will be in Sweden, Gotland June 5 til June 21 at my

friend's airport ESVB (Bunge) and we would love to see some Europas fly

there. You can get information about the airport on line.

Kim prout

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: Propeller choice - Whirlwind?

Is whirlwind making these?   I phoned them up about 18 month ago when I was

still hopeful that I wd finish this century and they said that they no

longer produce the Europa prop.



--

asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 9:16 am Post subject: Propeller choice - Whirlwind?

Yes they are making these. I spoke to them just yesterday. It is the

series 100. Price is $4k. It is on their website.

http://www.whirlwindaviation.com/series100.php



--- William Daniell <wdaniell(at)etb.net.co> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <wdaniell(at)etb.net.co>

 

 Is whirlwind making these?   I phoned them up about 18 month ago when

 I was

 still hopeful that I wd finish this century and they said that they

 no

 longer produce the Europa prop.

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 10:08 am Post subject: Propeller choice - Whirlwind?

If the prop was designed for the Europa, what's with the 66" 

diameter?...Isn't that a tad large?



Fred



On Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 10:13  AM, Andrew Sarangan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <asarangan(at)yahoo.com>



 Yes they are making these. I spoke to them just yesterday. It is the

 series 100. Price is $4k. It is on their website.

 http://www.whirlwindaviation.com/series100.php



 --- William Daniell <wdaniell(at)etb.net.co> wrote:



> 

> <wdaniell(at)etb.net.co>

>

> Is whirlwind making these?   I phoned them up about 18 month ago when

> I was

> still hopeful that I wd finish this century and they said that they

> no

> longer produce the Europa prop.


	




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This message has been scanned for viruses and

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johnwigney(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 7:03 am Post subject: Propeller choice - Whirlwind?

Hi Fred and Andrew,  

 

 I hope you do not mind my combined reply. My plane is an XS monowheel.

 

 Regarding the 66" diameter. Yes, that is larger than normal. For all normal handling there is no problem. However, if one has a very heavy landing, there is the risk of a prop strike. I believe there is also a risk even with the standard diameter prop. I do not have any good comparison on noise so cannot comment. It is important to balance the prop to get smoothness.

 

 Regarding modification to the oil system, this is a standard modification to the 912/912S/914 engines and the components are all Rotax supplied parts which are best installed by a Rotax dealer. The governor is basically a high pressure oil pump which supplies a control pressure to a piston in the prop hub. For example, on take off, the prop is fully fine at 5,800 rpm. As airspeed increases the prop speed would tend to increase since the blades get a smaller bite on the air. The governor alters the supply pressure which coarsens the blade pitch, and the thrust and load increase to maintain 5,800 rpm. All this is instantaneous and requires no attention from the pilot. The prop is truly a constant speed design. One small plus is that on approach, the prop is normally set at fully fine for a possible go-around. If one chooses to close the throttle fully, the prop acts as a fairly effective air brake disc with consequent steep glide slope.

 

 I am a little puzzled with the reference to an electric governor. I think this would require a complete redesign of the Whirlwind hub so that an electric motor could be included with the usual slip rings required by electric VP propeller designs. The weight of this prop would probably be quite a lot higher.

 

 Cheers, John

 

 N262WF, mono XS, 912S

 

 Mooresville, North Carolina

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  ORIGINAL MESSAGES :-

Subject: Re: Propeller choice - Whirlwind?

From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>

John...thank you for putting your oar in. I note the Whirlwind series 100 is 66" diameter...How do you feel about that size?...Are you mono or trigear?...How do you rate the WW noise level? Fred 	
  (asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM)From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM> (asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM)

 Thanks for that information. Whirl Wind is local for me (Ohio), and I had not realized that their 100-series prop was designed for theEuropa. It looks like the photo on their website is also that of the Europa. But I am a bit uneasy about modifying the 914's oil system, and also about losing the auxilary pad (which I had planned for a secondalternator). I spoke to Whirl Wind and they said an electric governor is a possibility, but I did not press him for details.     [quote][b]

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