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tjyak50

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:46 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator

Interested to hear  from those who have installed the B&C or Jasco alternator in a  Yak.

  

 Do any of our  regular Yak suppliers have special pricing or is it all  direct?

  

 Tj

  

 ---------------------------

Thomas Johnson, Airpower Insurance,  LLC

 36 West Ocotillo Road,  Phoenix, AZ   85013-1235

 Tel:   602-628-2701    or    Toll Free:  866-475-9199

E:  tomjohnson(at)cox.net (tomjohnson(at)cox.net)   or   Fax:  623-321-5843           

 Free Quote:   www.airpowerinsurance.com

 

 *  Privacy  Information

 ** NO insurance can be started or  changed by email until confirmed in writing.

  

  

  

  

   [quote][b]

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator

On Dec 23, 2007, at 8:38 PM, Tom Johnson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Interested to hear from those who have installed the B&C or Jasco  

 alternator in a Yak.


	


B&C works extremely well and is very expensive. Most of the other  

conversion I have seen are GM truck alternators. They work really  

well and are dirt cheap once you weld the spline coupling onto the  

alternator shaft.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:02 am Post subject: B&C Alternator

Got any 5x8 glossies of that spline coupling? Where did you get the spline

coupling from? Take it off the generator? Where did you get the base plate

to mount the alternator to? And the last question, you got any wiring

diagrams for the system after you have hooked up the existing (+), (-), and

exciter wire from the old generator to what was the carbon pile regulator

and power panel now to the new solid state regulator?

Granted I am not a avionics or electricity genius. Imbecile is more like it.

But, my last encounter with the YAK electrical system did not leave me with

the "it's simple" feeling 3 weeks later.

Please enlighten me on the process of this conversion. I'm all for saving a

few bucks with the cost of fuel going up along with taxes for everything

including the air we breath!

Doc

--

dstroud(at)storm.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:05 am Post subject: B&C Alternator

I looked high and low for an auto alt that would easily be set

up to mount on the Huosai engine's alt pad but never found

one and finally muckled onto a nice Jasco unit on ebay. Brian...

which GM truck alt has a cooperative mounting method? Thanks.



David Stroud   Ottawa, Canada

C-FDWS  Christavia

Fairchild 51 under construction

---

dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:19 am Post subject: B&C Alternator

I have the B&C in my CJ (M14P).  It is excellent but expensive.  But it 

mates to the engine just fine.



DaBear



Tom Johnson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Interested to hear from those who have installed the B&C or Jasco 

 alternator in a Yak.

  

 Do any of our regular Yak suppliers have special pricing or is it all 

 direct?

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: B&C Alternator

I also have a B&C - i just had a small problem with the wiring and  

contacted the company as the unit came on the plane and I had no  

paperwork/diagrams/manuals.  They just sent out a nice packet of info  

- the unit seems to work great.  if anyone wants the diagrams or  

photos - email mail me.



Herb

On Dec 24, 2007, at 8:18 AM, DaBear wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I have the B&C in my CJ (M14P).  It is excellent but expensive.  But  

 it mates to the engine just fine.



 DaBear



 Tom Johnson wrote:

> Interested to hear from those who have installed the B&C or Jasco  

> alternator in a Yak.

> Do any of our regular Yak suppliers have special pricing or is it  

> all direct?

tjyak50

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:02 am Post subject: Re: B&C Alternator

I have met the owner of B&C a few times and he is a good guy.  Clearly a "Sparky" if there ever was one.



I considered going with an auto or marine alternator but I also like the fact that B&C is supporting our aircraft with a specific solution.



The weather is perfect for flying for us now and I don't want to be down for long with my head stuck up in the hell hole of a Yak.



Who sells the JASCO system for the Yak, is it just the Coy's?



Tj

cliff(at)gesoco.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: B&C Alternator

Tom,

We have the adapter in stock and can have an alternator drop shipped to you.



Cheers,

Cliff



tjyak50 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I have met the owner of B&C a few times and he is a good guy.  Clearly a "Sparky" if there ever was one.



 I considered going with an auto or marine alternator but I also like the fact that B&C is supporting our aircraft with a specific solution.



 The weather is perfect for flying for us now and I don't want to be down for long with my head stuck up in the hell hole of a Yak.



 Who sells the JASCO system for the Yak, is it just the Coy's?



 Tj





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154011#154011





   


	


-- 

Clifford Coy

Director of Maintenance

Border Air Ltd

629 Airport Rd.

Swanton, VT 05488

802-868-2822 TEL

802-868-4465 FAX

Skype: callto:Cliff.Coy <callto:cliff.coy>

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: B&C Alternator

On Dec 24, 2007, at 6:00 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>



 Got any 5x8 glossies of that spline coupling? Where did you get the  

 spline

 coupling from? Take it off the generator? Where did you get the  

 base plate

 to mount the alternator to?


	


I have seen several alternators mounted to both the M14 and the  

Huosai engines. While I did not do the work myself all seemed  

straight forward mechanical jobs. The big difference is that one  

needs to fabricate a base plate with the seal for the Huosai engine.



I believe that the spline was removed from the generator and welded  

to the alternator input shaft. Most base plates seems to be  

relatively simple machined aluminum blocks. No two have been alike to  

my eyes (B&C excepted, of course) but they didn't seem to be either  

complex or need a CNC mill to make.



 	  Quote: 	
		   And the last question, you got any wiring

 diagrams for the system after you have hooked up the existing (+),  

 (-), and

 exciter wire from the old generator to what was the carbon pile  

 regulator

 and power panel now to the new solid state regulator?


	


That part is easy. The 'B' lead from the alternator goes to the main  

bus tie with an appropriate current limiting device; i.e. breaker,  

fuse, or fusible link; as near as possible to the bus tie. You get  

rid of all that stuff associated with the generator as it is not  

needed. You dispose of the filter and the regulator along with the  

generators. That gets you almost another 3-4 Kg of mass out of your  

airplane (in addition to the generator itself).



Some (most) alternators are internally regulated. They do not need an  

external regulator and so need only two wires: the 'B' lead which  

carries the power from the alternator to the bus and an excitation  

lead that provides a small amount of battery power to "turn on" the  

alternator initially. Some alternators use this second wire to allow  

you to turn the alternator on or off. (This latter feature is  

desirable as it allows you to force the alternator off should the  

regulator fail and the alternator "run away".)



If you use an externally-regulated alternator you will need a new  

alternator-controller/regulator you can use a standard aircraft or  

automotive device. B&C makes one for their alternator. It is very  

nice but also very pricey.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Granted I am not a avionics or electricity genius. Imbecile is more  

 like it.

 But, my last encounter with the YAK electrical system did not leave  

 me with

 the "it's simple" feeling 3 weeks later.


	


There is nothing simple about the generator system in the aircraft  

(Yak or CJ) and to my way of thinking it is one of the first things I  

would replace. It adds a lot of weight an complexity. It also uses  

lots of electromechanical switches (relays) which are much more prone  

to misadjustment and failure. So keep the generator until it fails  

and then put in an alternator so you don't have to mess with it again.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Please enlighten me on the process of this conversion. I'm all for  

 saving a

 few bucks with the cost of fuel going up along with taxes for  

 everything

 including the air we breath!


	


Well, the B&C is NOT the way to save a few bux. OTOH, once you spend  

the money you can be satisfied that it will work trouble-free longer  

than anything else in the airplane will. It will also get rid of  

something like 13Kg of mass. The GM truck alternator is dirt cheap  

but you have to fabricate the mounting plate and weld on the spline  

coupling. Not hard to do but not an instant bolt-on replacement either.



So, how much is your time worth to you? Would you rather be trouble  

shooting the generator or flying? Are you paying someone to fix it  

for you? If so, the B&C may be cheap. Are you doing it yourself and  

you really like working on your airplane? Fix the generator then. I  

like playing with steam engines for fun and doing celestial  

navigation. The arcanity appeals to me. I think generators are cool  

the way they work. But I wouldn't want one in my airplane.



Hmm, are you telling me that you want a cheap alternator conversion  

kit for M14 and Huosai? What price do you think would be reasonable?



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:33 am Post subject: B&C Alternator

On Dec 24, 2007, at 9:42 AM, Cliff Coy wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Tom,

 We have the adapter in stock and can have an alternator drop  

 shipped to you.


	


This strikes me as the most cost-effective way to go.



My only comment is that you need some way to force the alternator off- 

line should its regulator fail and the alternator "run away". In that  

case the bus voltage will go way too high and the battery will fail,  

sometimes in a very spectacular but frightening fashion. Immediately  

thereafter all your avionics will go with it.



Some internally regulated alternators have a diode trio that makes  

them "self-exciting". That means that once they come on, you can't  

turn them off until the alternator stops turning. Not good if the  

internal regulator goes TU and turns the field on all the way. Now  

you have a runaway alternator you can't turn off. Better to remove  

the diode trio and provide the excitation for the alternator's  

internal regulator and field through an external wire and switch. You  

can turn that switch off and turn off the alternator even if the  

regulator fails. This mod is pretty simple.



OTOH, Cliff may be providing an alternator already configured for  

external control which makes the point moot.



BTW, many alternators have a lead that supposedly turns the  

alternator on or off. This is actually just a control signal to the  

regulator. The regulator is still powered by the diode trio inside  

the alternator. In this type of alternator/regulator if the internal  

regulator fails with the field turned on, the on/off lead no longer  

works and you can't turn off your alternator. You need to make sure  

that the field current and regulator excitation is suppled through a  

separate, external circuit that is under the pilot's control.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator

Herb (the other Doc),

Yes, please email them to me. What did you do to regulate the output to the

system?

Doc



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:34 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator

Hey Brian,

Thanks. Seems $500 to 800 would be fair if we are talking about a GM

conversion.

Doc

By the way see your Christmas and call your Happy New Year!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year on this fine Xmas eve to all on the list!



Doc



--

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:31 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator

On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:33 PM, Roger Kemp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>



 Hey Brian,

 Thanks. Seems $500 to 800 would be fair if we are talking about a GM

 conversion.


	


Thanks for the info. Let me think about it.

--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator

On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:19 PM, Roger Kemp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>



 Herb (the other Doc),

 Yes, please email them to me. What did you do to regulate the  

 output to the

 system?


	


If you are interested in the B&C alternator system, see this page. It  

is the wiring diagram for the B&C alternator. Very simple.



http://www.bandc.biz/Lr3C_dgm.pdf

--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

valleyauto(at)clearwire.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:23 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator

---

valleyauto(at)clearwire.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator

I have the Jasco in my Yak 52 it works great It was easer to install  than try to find out witch part was bad and take a guess and pay 400.00 just for  one part that might be the problem or pay 8 or 9 hundred and have a great  system. a no brainier. 

Thanks Don

 [quote]   ---

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator

There is more than one B&C Alternator.  The one that comes with the westernized YAKS's is a true alternator with an excitation field winding.  It comes with an external regulator that includes over-voltage protection.  It is a terrific unit but has a rather high price tag at around $700 or so.  Then there is the very small PMG device that B&C sells that outputs about 10 amps at 28 volts DC maximum.  This unit has no field winding, but instead is a perm. magnet generator.  This unit has an external voltage regulator.  It also has an OPTIONAL over-voltage crowbar circuit that I would highly suggest using as well.  The latter unit is very light weight which is why you  find it on most aerobatic platforms using the M-14.  

  

 The stock Russian electrical system is better than a lot of people thing.  It just is a real SOB to learn and understand.  You can buy a new Russian generator for about $100 brand new if you know where to look.  The only parts that are hard to find are the relays, especially the "Combined Device" master control relay.  However, this unit can be repaired, or even made a-new if you have a little talent and some time.  You smpke a Russian part and it is a few hundred maximum.  You smoke a B&C Alternator and it's a quick $700 ..... pay me now, see you later.  

  

 There are simply pro and con's no matter which way you go.  I've worked on both systems... and have kept the Russian one by choice. 

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 



 

 ---

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator

The larger style B&C with outboard regulator includes built in over-voltage protection.  The wiring in the aircraft now can be also used to provide the on-off capability needed.  Switching to a B&C is easy.  Finding exactly the right wires to hook everything in to may not be.  Depends on your talent level. 

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 



 

 ---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator

Thanks Doc Herb.

Doc Kemp



--

tjyak50

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: B&C Alternator

Stealing partially from Brian Lloyd and Mark Bitterlich... with respect to hooking a B&C  model LR3C-28 Voltage Regulator to a Yak.



1)  The "B" fat wire from the alternator connects to the bus bar in the DC power box.  It connects in the same place where you remove the connection from the bus to the terminal marked "CETb" on the Combined Relay (Aka: 200-Gizmo).



2)  Terminal "F" on the alternator is wired to terminal #4 on the new Voltage Regulator.



3)  Generator On / Off switch now becomes the Alternator On / Off switch and acts as the Alternator Field.  The wire that was connected to terminal marked "B" on the Combined relay can serve this fucntion? and would be connected to terminal #6 on the new regulator.



4) A wire to the Bus from the new Voltage Regulator terminal #3 acts as the Bus Voltage Sense.



5)  A beefy ground wire from the New Voltage regulator pin #7



And now a question...

6)  The "Low Voltage" pin from the new Voltage Regulator is pin #5.

Appears this lamp is triggered by pin #5 going to GROUND as it shows the lamp connected to the bus with a fuse.  This is how the system works in my Yak, so this wire could go directly to the existing lamp (barrel) to accomplish this function and still keep the existing "Test" function intact?  In my airplane the GEN OUT light center pin is always hot with the battery on and the barrel gets ground from the TEST relay or the GEN OUT relay.



Some of this assumes any switches or wires you re-use are known good, so lets at least pretend that for now.



Comments please - NO FLAMES... I am just a rookie.

If these connections sound reasonable I will try it and take pictures to document forever.

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