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Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

First off I am not in favor of ethanol by any means.  That being said I use it as I have other choice. And I use over 1000 gallons annually in my Kitfox alone.  



Rather than posting the fears and or myths why not let compare notes on what has in fact happened with continued use of ethanol gas. I will tell you that I must be lucky if any of these myths are actaully fact. 



Ethanol Gas is likely better for Rotax engines than is AVGAS but yet many chose to run avgas. ?

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Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Hi Dave,



I have to use ethanol, too. I am currently doing so research and testing with engine temps, vapor pressures combined with OAT and how they affect fuel pressure. I have used many a gallon with it in several planes. Don't get me wrong I will go out of my way to get ethanol free fuel if I can find it. I have used ethanol fuel in three Rotax  912ULS engines. Rotax says 5% ethanol is ok, but won't put in writing yet anything higher like the 10% we usually see. I do know in some areas of the world they have to use ethanol based fuels up to 17% and they have not had any real issues at least in the Rotax. I prefer personally to use the ethanol 91 octane over the 100LL. It's a personal choice. I have taken apart and seen to many engines and the leading damage, not to mention twice the maint. The possibilities of an issue could happen, but it's not high on the probability list and of course this all depends on altitude,  how you fly and where you live in the world, ect, ect.. Your plane's construction also plays a part in how ethanol will work for you (i.e. temps). The difference is that people need to be educated about its properties and limitations. The idea behind the memos was not to start a scare or issues between flyer's, but was in some small way to let the major fuel companies realize we need some alternative and they can not always sit in the office and just say no. 2010 is coming quick.



It's education ,education.

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Tucson, Az.
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lkc(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Roger~ Thanks for the insight.  I'll try the 90 octane, ethanol free that we can get at Costco here in Alaska.  I did call the Costco headquarters to see if their fuel was actually free of ethanol.  They said if it has ethanol, a plackard would be on the outside of the fuel pump.  Layne,  Anch., Ak  S5 EA81 Sooby    



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larry huntley

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:44 pm Post subject: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Don't bet a lot on the placard. Some folks have  found ethanol in unmarked pumps that the attendent said had none.    Larry

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

 	  Quote: 	
		  Don't bet a lot on the placard. Some folks have found ethanol in unmarked pumps that the attendent said had none. Larry 

--- 	


Yes, you hit the nail on the head Larry.  I was told the same from guys who work at the tank farm here locally.  They basically  you have no idea what % ethanol is in the gas from time to time and it can and will change.

Octane can vary as well.  Rotax 2 strokes and 912 UL and 914  are fine in Regular grade.  The 912 S  with higher compression does like Premium grade better. 



AVGAS -- will add alot of lead to your engine - 2 or 4 stroke Rotax.  Rotax does not recommend AVGAS >period !!  but many seem to think it ok. ?

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Dave:

The choice you give us is the devil and the deep blue sea.  Neither one is

really appealing.  Neither is having our feet planted permanently on the

ground.  The only other answer is to push for a good, safe, unleaded and

un-contaminated with ethanol fuel.



In the meantime keep us all posted on how your planes handle the ethanol.

Noel Loveys

AME Intern, RPP

Kitfox III-A, 

Aerocet 1100 floats



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Kitfox III-A
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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

 	  Quote: 	
		   Neither one is 

really appealing. Neither is having our feet planted permanently on the 

ground. The only other answer is to push for a good, safe, unleaded and 

un-contaminated with ethanol fuel. 	




Like i continue to say, I fly 200 to 300 Kitfox rotax hours per year and have had NO ISSUES yet with ethanol gas......... so  myth or not? 

You guys keep telling your selves how bad it is and how many hours does anyone else fly annually  to make those myths actual reality? 



I do not support ethanol fuel but I have little choice in the gas I purchase.

Dave

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Dave:



We're supposed to live in a free country.  The squeaky wheel gets the

grease.  If we really don't like a law we ca work to change it...  That's

what we should be doing for several reasons.  If the horse's pitoos in

Ottawa though they could lose their jobs over any issue that issue would

quickly disappear.  That's what should be happening here.  No doubt there

are a few farmers who like the idea of ethanol fuel but when the crunch

comes and the whole truth is out, they will be the first to fall.



As for your experiences with ethanol contaminated fuel I expect you have

been fortunate in that you live in an area where there is a high rate of

turnover of fuel at gas stations, They may not be adding as much eth as they

say, your altitude near the great lakes may have a beneficial effect and the

number of hours you fly in a week may have a lot to do with  your results.

I don't have the flight hours you do and no doubt am not as well prepared

for a forced approach as you are so I want to give myself every edge I can

against an engine out...  if that  means fighting for clean gasoline to fly

on then that's what I will do.  If I'm successful then I won't be alone.

Hundreds will be with me and if we include the ground users of gas who want

to stay away from eth then it will be tens of thousands of people who will

benefit.  If the government wants to arrange for the option of using eth

fuel than I'm not really against that.  I still want to know how the intend

to get ethanol in sufficient quantities to the NWT, Northern costal B.C.,

Labrador and Newfoundland.  The stuff cannot be shipped by pipeline because

the use water between shipments and the water will remove the ethanol form

the gas.  No one wants to put the crap in a tanker because it is so

corrosive.  No one wants the crap in their tank farm for the same reasons

and there isn't a distillery for many hundreds of miles from those locations

let alone an ear of corn to ferment or distil.  I also question the

constitutional legality of Steve's ludicrous legislation.  Well it was

passed at the end of the silly season...  that may have something to do with

it.



Noel



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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

 	  larry huntley wrote: 	
		  Don't bet a lot on the placard. Some folks have  found ethanol in unmarked pumps that the attendent said had none.    Larry

	




The majority of attendants spend their days selling cigaretts, beer, and snacks... They just happen to be running the credit cards for the gas pumps also.   The attendant probably knows far less about the gas in the pumps than we do....  



Why would anyone take some minimum wage attendants word if the gas has ethanol or not ?  I would not even waste my time asking, just buy the test kit.



I agree with Dave though, I would use ethanol gasoline before I would put 100LL in my Rotax 912-S.   Carb floats, seals, etc are easy to inspect and replace if needed,  a Rotax 912 clogged with lead is much worse.



Mike

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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Mike sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I agree with Dave though, I would use ethanol gasoline before I 

would put 100LL in my Rotax 912-S.   Carb floats, seals, etc are 

easy to inspect and replace if needed,  a Rotax 912 clogged with 

lead is much worse.


	


I ran my 912S exclusively on AvGas and never had any trouble.  I run 

AvGas in my 4-stroke motorcycle, an old pre-emissions-controls 

Plymouth, and in my lawnmowers and trimmers.  They run cooler, can 

sit long periods without the carbs getting gunked up, and I don't 

have to worry about what's in it.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Let me get this straight.....some of you guys are flying 912's in  

airplanes, you fly into an airport, and you hope to have automobile  

gas there for you? And with all the bad hype about ethanol, you'd  

rather use this than 100LL????



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

do not archive





On Aug 14, 2008, at 5:58 PM, Michael Gibbs wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net>



 Mike sez:



> I agree with Dave though, I would use ethanol gasoline before I  

> would put 100LL in my Rotax 912-S.   Carb floats, seals, etc are  

> easy to inspect and replace if needed,  a Rotax 912 clogged with  

> lead is much worse.



 I ran my 912S exclusively on AvGas and never had any trouble.  I  

 run AvGas in my 4-stroke motorcycle, an old pre-emissions-controls  

 Plymouth, and in my lawnmowers and trimmers.  They run cooler, can  

 sit long periods without the carbs getting gunked up, and I don't  

 have to worry about what's in it.



 Mike G.

 N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

 Phoenix, AZ

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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Lynn, you are right HYPE  is the keyword on ethanol until it proven to me  otherwise.  ANd I would rather not use ethanol gas but I have no choice. 



912 can use AVGAS  but not with synthetic oil.  You will get more lead fouling as well.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Mike , how many hours on your Kitfox with 912 ? 

 	  Quote: 	
		  I ran my 912S exclusively on AvGas and never had any trouble. I run 

AvGas in my 4-stroke motorcycle, an old pre-emissions-controls 

Plymouth, and in my lawnmowers and trimmers. They run cooler, can 

sit long periods without the carbs getting gunked up, and I don't 

have to worry about what's in it. 



Mike G.

henrysfork1(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Plus mo gas goes bad quickly. I found that curious also but wanted see how  this thing played out.

  

 Dee Young

 N345DY

 Model II

  

 Do not archive

 [quote]   ---

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Dave asks:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Mike, how many hours on your Kitfox with 912 ?


	


Sorry Dave, I don't know.  The engine was sold to another Kitfox 

builder about 3 years ago.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Mike, point was  how many hours did you fly with avgas in your 912 Kitfox ?> ? I have over 1000 hour in the last few year alone that we have had ethanol gas at our pumps and have had no issues   >  YET  <   So If there is a problem I want to know all about it. 



Dave

 	  Quote: 	
		  Sorry Dave, I don't know. The engine was sold to another Kitfox 

builder about 3 years ago.

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Dave sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Mike, point was  how many hours did you fly with avgas in your 912 Kitfox ?


	


I didn't phrase my answer very well.  I don't know how many hours it 

operated on 100LL and since it has now been sold I can't readily find 

out.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

When I use 100LL in my fox 912 I use TCP. And I use semi  synthetic Valvoline Durablend. I only use it when i do cross countries and Mo  gas isn't available. Mo gas goes stale ? Who lets it sit in their tank long  enough to get stale ??? 225 hrs since 9/15/07

 Steve Bennett  Classic 4 912 speedwing  Durham  NC  USA

  In a message dated 8/14/2008 9:30:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs    <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net>



Dave sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Mike, point was     how many hours did you fly with avgas in your 912 Kitfox ?


	


I didn't    phrase my answer very well.  I don't know how many hours it 

operated    on 100LL and since it has now been sold I can't readily find    

out.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix,  he  es  y       -->                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  nbsp;               - List Contribution Web Site  ;                             =========================



	




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  [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

 	  Quote: 	
		  Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:28 pm    Post subject: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?   



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Dave sez: 



Quote: 

Mike, point was how many hours did you fly with avgas in your 912 Kitfox ? 

 



I didn't phrase my answer very well. I don't know how many hours it 

operated on 100LL and since it has now been sold I can't readily find 

out. 

 

	




Just wondered how many hours thats YOU put on it ,  no care about who owns it now,

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Dave sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Just wondered how many hours thats YOU put on it ,  no care about 

who owns it now,


	


OK, let me shorten my answer.  I don't know.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

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