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Note on Ethanol

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Rich L

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 63
Location: North Idaho

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: Note on Ethanol

This MS Word Document is from the Idaho Aviation Association (IAA).

Thought it might be of interest.

Rich L

Discussion of Ethanol Mandates.doc

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f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearw
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: Note on Ethanol

Rich,



When was this article written? Last year? The date on the top is October 18.

Two days from now. If so, a lot has happened since then. As I understand it

the Idaho and Washington legislation that was passed regarding ethanol fuel

mandated that "91 octane fuel is too made available for aviation and

recreational use". I just dare you to find it and no distributor, that I can

find, wants to talk about it.



Oh yes, I dropped a note to the Idaho Dept. of Aviation about his matter and

did not even get the courtesy of a response.



Frank Miles

Lewiston, Idaho

 

--

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Note on Ethanol

For what it's worth.  I have been using Union 76 premium 92 octane in Ellensburg, WA.  I have been testing for alcohol and as of 10-13 have not found any in 76's premium.  I use the EAA recommended water in a jar test.  I was using Chevron premium until the alcohol showed up about mid July this year.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Rich L

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 63
Location: North Idaho

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Note on Ethanol

That note just came to me from the IAA.  The October 18 is the date of the board meeting where this will be discussed.  Some of the information was written up on the latest newsletter on the IAA web site.  (www.flyidaho.org).

Here are some of the local stations which sell non-contaminated premium fuel:



Dykes Exon in Bonners Ferry has a Pacific Pride Pump in back.

The Coop in Sandpoint.



I saw a list of other stations mostly in southern Idaho .

paul(at)eucleides.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: Note on Ethanol

On Thu, October 16, 2008 4:56 pm, Tom Jones wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 For what it's worth.  I have been using Union 76 premium 92 octane in Ellensburg, WA.

 I have been testing for alcohol and as of 10-13 have not found any in 76's premium.  I

 use the EAA recommended water in a jar test.  I was using Chevron premium until the

 alcohol showed up about mid July this year.


	


I can verify that Chevron is using 10% Ethanol in Bellevue WA and possibly all of

Western Washington. It even says so on the pumps. Chevron and Exxon-Mobil are building

Bio-Diesel blending plants in Washington. The Exxon plant in Spokane will be fully

operational in December.



One thing good is that MTBE is dead. Estimates say E90 costs more and gives a uniform

8% reduction in fuel mileage. It has a lower flash point and higher vapor pressure

than gasoline so this is genuine concern with operating altitude even if you've solved

the problems with gaskets, seals and corrosion.



Pipeline operators are not blending ethanol because they claim the corrosivity of

ethanol threatens the integrity of the pipelines. As a result, ethanol is blended at

the pipeline delivery points, chiefly Harbor Island in Seattle so it is likely that

all gasoline has the 10% blend in Western Washington.



-- 

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

PAF Consulting Engineers

Office 425.440.9505

Cell 425.241.1618

steve.didier(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject: Note on Ethanol

one of our local flyers swears that Jacob's Oil in Grangeville still  

sells ethanol free premium.

Steve

On Oct 16, 2008, at 6:10 PM, Rich L wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 That note just came to me from the IAA.  The October 18 is the date  

 of the board meeting where this will be discussed.  Some of the  

 information was written up on the latest newsletter on the IAA web  

 site.  (www.flyidaho.org).

 Here are some of the local stations which sell non-contaminated  

 premium fuel:



 Dykes Exon in Bonners Ferry has a Pacific Pride Pump in back.

 The Coop in Sandpoint.



 I saw a list of other stations mostly in southern Idaho .





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9111#209111

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:07 am Post subject: Note on Ethanol

As to whether MTBE being dead is a good thing or not is something I haven't

considered.  It certainly isn't as toxic as lead or as destructive as

Ethanol.



I use the word destructive in regard to ethanol because of the impact

ethanol production on commercial levels has on the environment and the

additional impact it has had on our (world) food supply.  Increases in CO2

given off during the fermentation process make the fuel worse than anything

else available.  Add to all that the concerns of ethanol in flight and

corrosion and one has to wonder who sold this bill of lies to legislators

and can they be hired by anyone??  I have a shoreline or rock I'd like to

sell at around $4.00 per pound.  I'll cut a deal with anyone to sell bog at

$5.00 a gallon.



All that is interesting and to be honest thrashed to death.  



I only wanted to comment on why pipeline owners may not be interested in

sending ethanol through their pipelines.  Corrosion is a serious

consideration but far from the only one.



Pipelines transport many different types of fossil fuels...  Gasoline,

Diesel, motor oil etc.  So as not to leave their pipes full of someone

else's product and contamination of cargo they use salt water pumped into

the pipes between shipments.  Unfortunately ethanol is more than happy to

form a true solution with this water.  This means they would have to build

from the ground up a dedicated distribution network for ethanol.  Meters

would have to be installed at each terminal to measure the amount of product

delivered to any particular terminal.  Mixing the ethanol with the gas will

still have to be done locally.  This may mean some places like Alaska will

just have to stop driving gas powered cars because delivering ethanol there

will be a nightmare followed by the nightmare of trying to start a car in

subzero temperatures on ethanol.  The next few years will be a great time to

invest in manufacturing tanker trucks.  BTW where is the nearest distillery

to Washington DC?  Maybe if congressmen had to walk more they would think

about the laws they pass.



A short while ago a guy from Brazil said  Brazil moves its ethanol around by

tanker ships with no problems...  Anyone ever see a Brazilian flagged

tanker???  I live on the side of the North Atlantic and I have never seen

one.  In fact I've never seen any ship with a Brazilian flag.  This tells me

they are a scarce as hens' teeth and they don't go too far from home.  Most

probably they are using Iberian flagged vessels.  Nuff said about that.  



No wonder North American shippers are not interested in carrying a load of

eth.  Even our tramp steamers are much better than some foreign flags.

Please note the word "some", because there are a lot of seagoing nations who

know tricks to teach fish about the sea.

Noel Loveys

AME Intern, RPP

Kitfox III-AIvo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats



 



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Note on Ethanol

Making and Burning Ethanol as fuel is the greatest Environmental distster this planet has ever faced.   Noel is correct, producing ethanol takes more energy and creates more CO 2 than just burning the gasoline, but it get much worse    



Being that we are now burning Food for fuel, to make up for the food shortage, Forests in Brazil, Malaysia and all over the world are being slashed at a much greater rate than ever before to make up for the shortage in food. The ethanol demand is driving this.  It takes enough corn to produce 20 gallons of ethanol to feed a person for a year, did we forget all about morality and the starving people on this planet ?     Why would we do such a stupid thing,  CORRUPTION.   Special interests, farmers votes, there is enough money behind this to make it happen, even though it is harming the planet immensely.  We have the best government money can buy. 



BTW - I forgot to mention the most important aspect of ethanol, it causes problems when used in our airplanes  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: Note on Ethanol

At 05:00 PM 10/18/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I forgot to mention the most important aspect of ethanol, it causes 

problems when used in our airplanes  [Evil or Very Mad]


	


Thanks, Mike, for making this post at least tangentially aviation 

related. However this thread was beat to death quite recently, so I 

am going to ask you and others to take it off list.



Thanks,

Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

paul(at)eucleides.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: Note on Ethanol

On Sat, October 18, 2008 5:00 pm, JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Making and Burning Ethanol as fuel is the greatest Environmental distster this planet

 has ever faced.   Noel is correct, producing ethanol takes more energy and creates

 more CO 2 than just burning the gasoline, but it get much worse  [Shocked]


	


clip clip



This an interesting topic however, this is not the proper forum for it. It's a good

idea to discuss closely related subject matter to the building and operating of a

Kitfox and powering one. If the topic drifts too far off, the maillist will lose it's

usefulness and some participants will lose interest. I don't think there needs to be

silly restrictions on what you can discuss and quoting URLs for products we find seems

fine to me too.



Just for drill there is a nice section at the bottom of this page on Kitfox-List Usage

Guidelines:



<http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm>



It's actually pretty good practice, IMHO, to follow these guidelines.

-- 

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

PAF Consulting Engineers

Office 425.440.9505

Cell 425.241.1618

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