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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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 Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:34 am Post subject: Landing the KIS TR-1 |
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11/29/2012
Hello Jesse, You wrote:
Questions:
1) “I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle.”
When you say “hold it off” are you talking about the entire plane, that is, holding the main gear off or just holding the nose wheel off after the mains touch down?
2) “I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail.”
It takes a really nose high attitude while in contact with the runway to drag the bottom of the rudder.
A) Was this rudder contact just after a hard touchdown or while rolling out a bit?
B) What were you trying to achieve with that nose high attitude -- A slow touch down and a short roll out?
C) Where did you have the engine power set when you were trying the slower touch downs prior to installing the VG’s?
D) Where do you keep the engine power now during the flare?
My Comments:
I have come to the conclusion that the KIS TR-1 as originally configured, is just not a short field, slow touch down airplane. The technique that I have found that works the best is:
a) Keep some engine power on (1200 – 1300 rpm) until in ground effect just inches from the main gear touching down.
b) Keep the airspeed over the end of the runway at between 75 and 80 knots indicated.
c) Don’t raise the nose above the far end of the runway or the horizon or you will lose track of where you are both laterally and above the runway – this can lead to a harsh touchdown. The airplane must be flown visually all the way to touch down of the main gear – “wings level and hope” will not work.
d) Forget about holding the nose gear off after touch down of the mains. It can be done, but not consistently and trying to achieve that will usually lose track of where you are in relation to the runway (see c above).
e) I think a single vortex generator on each side of the fuselage nose can be of help (see the present versions on the Cirrus airplanes), but my experimentation is ongoing.
OC
=============================
Time: 09:24:18 PM PST US
From: Flyinisfun(at)aol.com (Flyinisfun(at)aol.com)
Subject: Vortex Generators
Hi Kis Gang,
I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I
have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down
around 75.
I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched
the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that was
all.
Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer,
which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put the
flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75 mph
with a true touch down at 65.
I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle. I know these things have been
cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole
complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine.
Any comments from you?
Jesse Wright
[quote][b]
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ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:41 am Post subject: Landing the KIS TR-1 |
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Hi Jesse and OC,
I had the same experience as OC, in landing speed and attitude, except it took me a long time and many bad approaches for it to sink in.  I did extend my elevator 1 1/2" while under construction and am able to consistently hold the nose off. The trick seems to be the balance due to the main gear location re CG.
OC, I would be interested in you VG test results.
Jesse, Any photos?
Tim
[quote] ---
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sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:59 am Post subject: Landing the KIS TR-1 |
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Another modification to concider is reducing the mechanical advantage the stick has over the elevator.
I did this by drilling new holes in the mid fuselage bellcrank andmoving that attach point of the forward push tube about half way toward the pivot point. The effect is to increase pitch forces which aremuch too light in the factory configuration. I did this along with a 2 inch elevator extension and the airplane is easier to control in the flare and pitch athority is much improved over the factory set up.
I also added a bob wieght which improved the ride in turbulence.
I highly recommend all three modifications.
Scott
From: F. Tim Yoder <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com>
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Landing the KIS TR-1
Hi Jesse and OC,
I had the same experience as OC, in landing speed and attitude, except it took me a long time and many bad approaches for it to sink in. I did extend my elevator 1 1/2" while under construction and am able to consistently hold the nose off. The trick seems to be the balance due to the main gear location re CG.
OC, I would be interested in you VG test results.
Jesse, Any photos?
Tim
[quote] ---
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randy.ott(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:04 pm Post subject: Landing the KIS TR-1 |
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I also put the VG on my tail.... I am now considering puting them on the wing as well.... can you please provide a picture of your wing with the VGs installed. Tnx and how far from the door did your start palcing VGs?
Randy Ott N96BT
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 5:23 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote] 11/29/2012
Hello Jesse, You wrote:
Questions:
1) I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle.
When you say hold it off are you talking about the entire plane, that is, holding the main gear off or just holding the nose wheel off after the mains touch down?
2) I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail.
It takes a really nose high attitude while in contact with the runway to drag the bottom of the rudder.
A) Was this rudder contact just after a hard touchdown or while rolling out a bit?
B) What were you trying to achieve with that nose high attitude -- A slow touch down and a short roll out?
C) Where did you have the engine power set when you were trying the slower touch downs prior to installing the VGs?
D) Where do you keep the engine power now during the flare?
My Comments:
I have come to the conclusion that the KIS TR-1 as originally configured, is just not a short field, slow touch down airplane. The technique that I have found that works the best is:
a) Keep some engine power on (1200 1300 rpm) until in ground effect just inches from the main gear touching down.
b) Keep the airspeed over the end of the runway at between 75 and 80 knots indicated.
c) Dont raise the nose above the far end of the runway or the horizon or you will lose track of where you are both laterally and above the runway this can lead to a harsh touchdown. The airplane must be flown visually all the way to touch down of the main gear wings level and hope will not work.
d) Forget about holding the nose gear off after touch down of the mains. It can be done, but not consistently and trying to achieve that will usually lose track of where you are in relation to the runway (see c above).
e) I think a single vortex generator on each side of the fuselage nose can be of help (see the present versions on the Cirrus airplanes), but my experimentation is ongoing.
OC
=============================
Time: 09:24:18 PM PST US
From: Flyinisfun(at)aol.com (Flyinisfun(at)aol.com)
Subject: Vortex Generators
Hi Kis Gang,
I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I
have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down
around 75.
I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched
the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that was
all.
Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer,
which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put the
flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75 mph
with a true touch down at 65.
I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle. I know these things have been
cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole
complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine.
Any comments from you?
Jesse Wright
| Quote: |
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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[b]
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Flyinisfun(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:28 pm Post subject: Landing the KIS TR-1 |
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I will try to get a couple of pictures and an explanation of where I located the VG's tomorrow. Randy, I too first put the VG's on the underside of my horizontal stabilizer and it made a huge difference. The difference just that made was seem when I went flying one day, came back and made a crappy landing. I looked for them and surprise, they were all blown off. I put them on again with 3-M contact spray. It is also recommended to use Lucite 330 glue available at the hardware store. Both of these mod's, tail and wing should go together. Please consider, Piper is now putting them on the Mirage.
Jesse Wright
In a message dated 11/29/2012 1:04:07 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, randy.ott(at)gmail.com writes:
| Quote: | I also put the VG on my tail.... I am now considering puting them on the wing as well.... can you please provide a picture of your wing with the VGs installed. Tnx and how far from the door did your start palacing VGs?
Randy Ott N96BT
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 5:23 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | 11/29/2012
Hello Jesse, You wrote:
Questions:
1) “I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle.”
When you say “hold it off” are you talking about the entire plane, that is, holding the main gear off or just holding the nose wheel off after the mains touch down?
2) “I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail.”
It takes a really nose high attitude while in contact with the runway to drag the bottom of the rudder.
A) Was this rudder contact just after a hard touchdown or while rolling out a bit?
B) What were you trying to achieve with that nose high attitude -- A slow touch down and a short roll out?
C) Where did you have the engine power set when you were trying the slower touch downs prior to installing the VG’s?
D) Where do you keep the engine power now during the flare?
My Comments:
I have come to the conclusion that the KIS TR-1 as originally configured, is just not a short field, slow touch down airplane. The technique that I have found that works the best is:
a) Keep some engine power on (1200 – 1300 rpm) until in ground effect just inches from the main gear touching down.
b) Keep the airspeed over the end of the runway at between 75 and 80 knots indicated.
c) Don’t raise the nose above the far end of the runway or the horizon or you will lose track of where you are both laterally and above the runway – this can lead to a harsh touchdown. The airplane must be flown visually all the way to touch down of the main gear – “wings level and hope” will not work.
d) Forget about holding the nose gear off after touch down of the mains. It can be done, but not consistently and trying to achieve that will usually lose track of where you are in relation to the runway (see c above).
e) I think a single vortex generator on each side of the fuselage nose can be of help (see the present versions on the Cirrus airplanes), but my experimentation is ongoing.
OC
=============================
Time: 09:24:18 PM PST US
From: Flyinisfun(at)aol.com (Flyinisfun(at)aol.com)
Subject: Vortex Generators
Hi Kis Gang,
I have had trouble as many of you have at landing the two place Kis. I
have had to cross the fence at about 80 mph indicated with a touch down
around 75.
I've tried slower only to plant it on and drag the tail. I touched
the rudder and sanded about 1/2" off the bottom of it and am lucky that was
all.
Anyway, I put VG's on the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer,
which did wonders and now on the wing. For the first time, when I put the
flaps down the nose pitches down. I am crossing the fence at about 75 mph
with a true touch down at 65.
I can control it and hold it off for the first time until it sets down very gentle. I know these things have been
cursed but I will not fly again without them. It has changed the whole
complexion of this machine. I feel that at last I have a flying machine.
Any comments from you?
Jesse Wright
| Quote: |
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
|
tp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com
/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com
http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com
p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
|
|
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics KIS-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List |
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