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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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 Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:49 am Post subject: Interesting weather flight to Lycoming Engine School in my |
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On 4/15/2013 7:52 AM, jkreidler wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: "jkreidler" <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com> (jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com)
Bill, how was the engine school?
Thanks - Jason
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Engine school was great. I decided to attend as I began the maintenance leg of my RV10 journey. That was a good decision. Taking it during the build is just a distraction unless perhaps you are installing a used engine that will require engine work beyond bolting it on and plumbing it up.
The 'school' consists of 2 classes - the first is 3.5 days of classroom going through Lycoming service pubs and an overview of engine construction, operation and maintenance. We also did a factory walk-thru. No hands on.
The 2nd class is 2.5 days of shop time disassembling and re-assembling an engine. All hands on.
They schedule these two classes on adjacent weeks so that that both can be taken together with a weekend in between. Class 1 is a pre-req to class 2.
"Lycosaurs" indeed; Just as the basic engine designs date back to the 40s or 50s, the class sort of does too. The classroom stuff is done with a minimum of flash and classroom technology and well, a shop is a shop. Very nice training facility right on Williamsport airport. The 'star' of the show from my perspective was the instructor, Jim Doebler. He taught 100% of both classes. Not knowing who else might teach it from time to time, I would insist on him teaching my class.
Jim's been with or around Lycoming his entire career in various capacities. But clearly he has taught this material many times and is thoroughly knowledgeable on just about anything and everything having to do with Lycoming engines including trouble shooting. Most important, he is a master instructor who doesn't waste a single word. He tells some stories but you quickly learn they all teach a point. No extra material covered, only the most relevant. It while seemed slow paced but it wasn't. It was paced just right.
Students in the class were primarily maintenance people working in the field. A number of foreigners. Most students had substantial maintenance experience. There was a sprinkling of homebuilder people as well.
You walk out of the 1st class with a complete set of Service bulletins, letters, and Instructions (the same box of paper you probably received with your new engine) shipped to you home. I was not alone among the homebuilders who felt that now, we can productively use that humongous stack of papers instead of just storing it.
The second class ships you an overhaul manual.
What can you do after completion? Well, training someone to do engine overhauls takes many weeks. But as a homebuilder who is not particularly experienced with engine work, I'm confident I could do one on mine if I so chose. More important, I feel confident that given the proper resources, I can do whatever is required to maintain that lovely IO-540 going forward.
I highly recommend the class to any builder who has not really worked with aircraft engines before, but intends to perform as much maintenance as they are comfortable with. I highly recommend getting Jim Doebler to instruct.
Other notes:
There are few handouts. Slides covered in class are not available. You can take phone pictures if you care too. I took copious notes (most of the others didn't but they were experienced).
They do this class 4 times a year I believe. It gets pretty booked up in advance but since they don't require payment until just before class, there are often late cancellations. If you are flexible, it's worth being on the waiting list. It's worth a call at the last possible moment before a class to see if there were any very late dropouts. Our class had been fully booked but there were empty seats.
Flying into the class is a great way to attend. The recommended Holiday Inn quite nice and will shuttle you back and forth to class. You don't need a car but a number of the students expensed one and shuttled many of us back and forth.
Jim knows his way around the area and will suggest where to best get lunch and dinner. However one gem unmentioned by him is the airport restaurant, Cloud 9. That restaurant is now on my list of "stop and eat" airport places. That restaurant, the classroom building and the FBO are all within walking distance of one another.
Perhaps the most interesting part of the experience is seeing filled hotels and a lot of commercial activity going on in this somewhat out of the way place. Fracking is underway in a big way in central PA.
[quote][b]
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Lew Gallagher
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:02 pm Post subject: Interesting weather flight to Lycoming Engine School in my |
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Hey Bill,
Did anyone ask Jim about hot engine starts on the IO-540? That has been addressed here, but with different styles from different folks. Just wondered if someone of his experience had a recommended technique.
Later, – Lew
[quote][b]
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crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
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jkreidler
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI
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| Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting weather flight to Lycoming Engine School in |
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Thanks Bill - this sounds great. May I ask how much they charged?
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Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
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gengrumpy(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:17 pm Post subject: Interesting weather flight to Lycoming Engine School in my |
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Lew,
After about 100 hrs and numerous hot start problems, another -10 builder put me onto this technique.
Throttle - 1/2 to 1 inch open.
Mixture - full lean
Boost pump - on
Begin cranking and simultaneously move the mixture in towards the half way position.
As it starts firing, increase mixture slightly and may need to modulate throttle momentarily.
Leave boost pump on for a couple of minutes after it fires.
Works every time!
grumpy
N184JM
On Apr 15, 2013, at 4:01 PM, <lewgall(at)charter.net (lewgall(at)charter.net)> <lewgall(at)charter.net (lewgall(at)charter.net)> wrote:
[quote] Hey Bill,
Did anyone ask Jim about hot engine starts on the IO-540? That has been addressed here, but with different styles from different folks. Just wondered if someone of his experience had a recommended technique.
Later, – Lew
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:03 pm Post subject: Interesting weather flight to Lycoming Engine School in my |
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Your boost pump is NOT helping anything with Bendix or AFP injection system. It only helps for Continental injection systems. Better to delay bringing in mixture a couple seconds as it may start without it.
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Miller John <gengrumpy(at)aol.com (gengrumpy(at)aol.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Lew,
After about 100 hrs and numerous hot start problems, another -10 builder put me onto this technique.
Throttle - 1/2 to 1 inch open.
Mixture - full lean
Boost pump - on
Begin cranking and simultaneously move the mixture in towards the half way position.
As it starts firing, increase mixture slightly and may need to modulate throttle momentarily.
Leave boost pump on for a couple of minutes after it fires.
Works every time!
grumpy
N184JM
On Apr 15, 2013, at 4:01 PM, <lewgall(at)charter.net (lewgall(at)charter.net)> <lewgall(at)charter.net (lewgall(at)charter.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hey Bill,
Did anyone ask Jim about hot engine starts on the IO-540? That has been addressed here, but with different styles from different folks. Just wondered if someone of his experience had a recommended technique.
Later, – Lew
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get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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--
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
[quote][b]
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
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| Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:40 pm Post subject: Interesting weather flight to Lycoming Engine School in my |
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We have to start lots of different engines.  They all have their idiosyncrasies and people figure out what works for each individual installation.  But if the ignition and starting system are in good condition (big if sometimes...), this works for me, hot or cold.  Consider this a universal method for injected Lycs:
Full throttle, full mixture. Â That opens everything up as far as possible.
Boost pump on until the fuel pressure approaches peak. Â No need to hold out for the final PSI, just watch for the rate of rise start to taper off. Â Boost pump off. Â Allows fuel to fill the injector lines without vapors.
Throttle back to 1/4" (just cracked). Â Mixture to ICO. Â At this point, the cylinder charge is over-rich and probably won't ignite.
Then crank with ignition for start per your installation--one mag, EI, both mags--it just depends on how your system is configured. Â The engine clears out the excess fuel and eventually reaches the correct mixture to start. Â Since it's at ICO, no fuel is being added, just removed.
As the engine starts to fire, move the mixture S L O W L Y towards full rich. Â ICO to full rich should take about 2 seconds.
Adjust throttle as necessary.
About the only change I make to this procedure is to sometimes give 1/2" of throttle if it's being stubborn. Â If it won't start like this, I look for some other problem. Â I've been very happy with SlickStart installations. Â As long as it's timed right, a SlickStarts always give a good hot spark, which is obviously required for starting.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] Your boost pump is NOT helping anything with Bendix or AFP injection system. It only helps for Continental injection systems. Better to delay bringing in mixture a couple seconds as it may start without it.
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Miller John <gengrumpy(at)aol.com (gengrumpy(at)aol.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Lew,
After about 100 hrs and numerous hot start problems, another -10 builder put me onto this technique.
Throttle - 1/2 to 1 inch open.
Mixture - full lean
Boost pump - on
Begin cranking and simultaneously move the mixture in towards the half way position.
As it starts firing, increase mixture slightly and may need to modulate throttle momentarily.
Leave boost pump on for a couple of minutes after it fires.
Works every time!
grumpy
N184JM
On Apr 15, 2013, at 4:01 PM, <lewgall(at)charter.net (lewgall(at)charter.net)> <lewgall(at)charter.net (lewgall(at)charter.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hey Bill,
Â
Did anyone ask Jim about hot engine starts on the IO-540?  That has been addressed here, but with different styles from different folks. Just wondered if someone of his experience had a recommended technique.
Â
Later, – Lew
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--
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
| Quote: |
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:14 am Post subject: Interesting weather flight to Lycoming Engine School in my |
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This is almost exactly what I do. I usually don't boost as long, and usually give about 1/2" of throttle (a little more than for a cold start).
Do not archive
Jesse SaintI-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)
www.itecusa.org
www.mavericklsa.com
C: 352-427-0285
O: 352-465-4545
F: 815-377-3694
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 15, 2013, at 10:38 PM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]We have to start lots of different engines. They all have their idiosyncrasies and people figure out what works for each individual installation. But if the ignition and starting system are in good condition (big if sometimes...), this works for me, hot or cold. Consider this a universal method for injected Lycs:
Full throttle, full mixture. That opens everything up as far as possible.
Boost pump on until the fuel pressure approaches peak. No need to hold out for the final PSI, just watch for the rate of rise start to taper off. Boost pump off. Allows fuel to fill the injector lines without vapors.
Throttle back to 1/4" (just cracked). Mixture to ICO. At this point, the cylinder charge is over-rich and probably won't ignite.
Then crank with ignition for start per your installation--one mag, EI, both mags--it just depends on how your system is configured. The engine clears out the excess fuel and eventually reaches the correct mixture to start. Since it's at ICO, no fuel is being added, just removed.
As the engine starts to fire, move the mixture S L O W L Y towards full rich. ICO to full rich should take about 2 seconds.
Adjust throttle as necessary.
About the only change I make to this procedure is to sometimes give 1/2" of throttle if it's being stubborn. If it won't start like this, I look for some other problem. I've been very happy with SlickStart installations. As long as it's timed right, a SlickStarts always give a good hot spark, which is obviously required for starting.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Your boost pump is NOT helping anything with Bendix or AFP injection system. It only helps for Continental injection systems. Better to delay bringing in mixture a couple seconds as it may start without it.
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Miller John <gengrumpy(at)aol.com (gengrumpy(at)aol.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Lew,
After about 100 hrs and numerous hot start problems, another -10 builder put me onto this technique.
Throttle - 1/2 to 1 inch open.
Mixture - full lean
Boost pump - on
Begin cranking and simultaneously move the mixture in towards the half way position.
As it starts firing, increase mixture slightly and may need to modulate throttle momentarily.
Leave boost pump on for a couple of minutes after it fires.
Works every time!
grumpy
N184JM
On Apr 15, 2013, at 4:01 PM, <lewgall(at)charter.net (lewgall(at)charter.net)> <lewgall(at)charter.net (lewgall(at)charter.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hey Bill,
Did anyone ask Jim about hot engine starts on the IO-540? That has been addressed here, but with different styles from different folks. Just wondered if someone of his experience had a recommended technique.
Later, – Lew
|
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--
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
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cs.com
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matronics.com/contribution
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:40 am Post subject: Interesting weather flight to Lycoming Engine School in my |
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On 4/15/2013 6:57 PM, jkreidler wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: "jkreidler" <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com> (jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com)
Thanks Bill - this sounds great. May I ask how much they charged?
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Here's the full confirmation letter with all the details.
Dear Mr. Watson,
You are scheduled to attend the Lycoming Engine Service School to be held March 19-22, 2013, and the Disassembly/Reassembly course to be held March 25-27, 2013. Attached is the confirmation letter for your attendance to these classes. About a month before the first class begins, I will contact you via email to make sure you are still planning to attend. At that time I will give you payment options. Payment should be made before the first day of class. The cost for the two classes will be $1,425.00 USD each student.
The Holiday Inn, Downtown hotel is the recommended hotel to stay during your visit. They offer a discounted room rate to our students with the special code listed in your confirmation letter. They also provide free transportation to and from the class each day, and to and from the local airport. I do have a list of other hotels in the area who give a discount to our students. Not all of them, however, provide transportation. I could email that list to you if you wish.
The classes are held at Pennsylvania College of Technology’s Aviation Center in Montoursville. The Aviation Center is located adjacent to the Williamsport Regional Airport (IPT). Please instruct whomever is driving you to the class that you need to go to Penn College’s Aviation Center, Montoursville.
Also, please note that all classes start promptly at 8:00 a.m. In case of inclement weather, the Lycoming Engine classes will still be held at 8 a.m. each morning at the Aviation Center.
If you drive your own vehicle, please ask the secretary at the front desk of the Aviation Center to give you a Temporary Parking Hanger to display in your parked vehicle. The College Police will ticket any vehicles that do not display the Temporary Parking Hanger.
As part of your tuition to the Lycoming Engine Service School you will receive a choice of maintenance manuals from Lycoming Engines. The instructor will have the order forms for you to complete. It is very important that you complete the order form accurately and eligibly with theexact address where the manuals are to be shipped via FedEx. FedEx will only ship to a physical address (number, street, city). Lycoming Engines will only ship once to the address given on the order form. If the shipment cannot be delivered to the address given, they will be returned to Lycoming Engines. You will then have to contact Lycoming Engines and pay for their shipment.
If I may be of further assistance, please contact me. Thank you very much.
Betty Ayers
Workforce Development and Continuing Education
Pennsylvania College of Technology
One College Avenue
Williamsport, PA 17701
Phone: [url=tel:570-327-4775]570-327-4775[/url]
Fax: [url=tel:570.327.4538]570.327.4538[/url]
bayers(at)pct.edu (bayers(at)pct.edu)
[quote][b]
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