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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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 Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:23 am Post subject: Control Force Harmony |
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4/21/2013
Hello Graham, You wrote: “Am surprised someone hasn't come up with some sort
of fail safe dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to
harmonise together with Aileron input feel .... , probably there is ... but
i just haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,”
There is such a device and I have one installed on my KIS TR-1. Read about
it in my KIS list 1/7/2006 posting copied here:
"1/7/2006 Hello Bill, There is more to this pitch trim by springs system
than meets the eye. The typical system uses two springs in tension with an
arm that moves the spring center connect point to adjust. This works, but as
you have discovered has some sloppyness or imprecision to it. Maybe because
the two springs are always in play. A local Glasair builder has developed a
spring trim system that is superior. Can be used for pitch, aileron, or
rudder. It consists of two springs in compression between the ends of a tube
and a rod sliding within that tube with a nylon slider block which acts as a
center stop between the two springs. The slider block is normally connected
to an electric trim positioning motor and the end of the rod is connected to
the control surface bellcrank. The result is a much more positive
repositioning capability of the trim center point and the fact that when
either control input is made or aerodynamic forces move the control surface
only one spring is in play, the one being compressed. Adjustment of the trim
center point is accomplished by operating the electric trim positioning
motor. Contact me if interested in pursuing this idea further. OC"
My motivation for installing this device was to accomplish pitch trim
without having a tab installed on my elevator, it could also be installed
for the purpose of changing pitch control forces with the trim capability
just an added benefit. By changing the length of the tube and rod, the
springs installed on each, and (for fine tuning) spacers on either the tube
or rod to increase initial spring compression force one can achieve an
almost infinite number of variable stick force required to move the elevator
in either direction.
OC
PS: One caveat -- To take true advantage of this system for pitch trim one
must have sufficient travel of the linear actuator to achieve the desired
maximum nose up and maximum nose down pitch conditions desired. The puny 1.2
inch travel of a Ray Allen servo is not likely to do the job.
=======================================================================================================
Saturday, April 20, 2013 7:54 AM
Hi OC,
Sorry didn't mean something was specially wrong .... Is that
most lighties share that common lack of harmony of control feel with roll
and pitch .... ,
With our Ailerons which are specially wholesome ( non tapered) .. some
'leverage' ... is going to be required .. (specially with increased speed !)
..
Where as elevators are mostly light ..!? .. In theory achieving mechanical
leverage advantage in equal measure to arrive at uniform control input
between pitch and roll is straight fwd .... but carn't think of any ( admit
am only ppl and not flown very many types ..!) .., that have achieved it
.?!
Playing with bell crank ratios is the logical way .. but would be super
laborious I'm sure ... With my adjustable length stick ... roll is as
light/heavy as my personal preference ( for whatever speed .. ) ....
However pitch which is normally light gets lighter with extra leverage grrr
... Am surprised someone hasn't come up with some sort of fail safe
dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to harmonise
together with Aileron input feel .... , probably there is ... but i just
haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,
Anyway am happy at present to retract down the stick for xcrountry legs and
map reading/iPad etc ...,
Just was that stick position came up that's all ... ,
Cheers
Graham
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gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:53 pm Post subject: Control Force Harmony |
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Hi OC,
Thx for ur great reply ... neat idea to work the Springs in
compression ..... think i get it ok .. but would be good to see the install
... do have any Pics at all .. ??
Cheers
Graham
| | - The Matronics KIS-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglo
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:40 am Post subject: Control Force Harmony |
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|
I added a couple of inches to the elevator extending it backwards.
This increased authority of the elevator and increased forces on the elevator harmonizing the elevator and the ailerons
without any additional mechano-electro-springo gizmos.
Jerzy
From: Graham Brighton <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au>
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, April 22, 2013 1:57:09 AM
Subject: Re: Control Force Harmony
--> KIS-List message posted by: "Graham Brighton" <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au (gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au)>
Hi OC,
Thx for ur great reply ... neat idea to work the Springs in compression ..... think i get it ok .. but would be good to see the install .... do have any Pics at all .. ??
Cheers
Graham
.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 5:23 AM
To: "BRIGHTON GRAHAM" <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au (gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au)>; "KIS-LIST MATRONICS" <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Control Force Harmony
| Quote: | --> KIS-List message posted by: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>
4/21/2013
Hello Graham, You wrote: “Am surprised someone hasn't come up with some sort of fail safe dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to harmonise together with Aileron input feel .... , probably there is ... but i just haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,”
There is such a device and I have one installed on my KIS TR-1. Read about it in my KIS list 1/7/2006 posting copied here:
"1/7/2006 Hello Bill, There is more to this pitch trim by springs system than meets the eye. The typical system uses two springs in tension with an arm that moves the spring center connect point to adjust. This works, but as you have discovered has some sloppyness or imprecision to it. Maybe because the two springs are always in play. A local Glasair builder has developed a spring trim system that is superior. Can be used for pitch, aileron, or rudder. It consists of two springs in compression between the ends of a tube and a rod sliding within that tube with a nylon slider block which acts as a center stop between the two springs. The slider block is normally connected to an electric trim positioning motor and the end of the rod is connected to the control surface bellcrank. The result is a much more positive repositioning capability of the trim center point and the fact that when either control input is made or aerodynamic forces move the control surface only one spring is in play, the one being compressed. Adjustment of the trim center point is accomplished by operating the electric trim positioning motor. Contact me if interested in pursuing this idea further. OC"
My motivation for installing this device was to accomplish pitch trim without having a tab installed on my elevator, it could also be installed for the purpose of changing pitch control forces with the trim capability just an added benefit. By changing the length of the tube and rod, the springs installed on each, and (for fine tuning) spacers on either the tube or rod to increase initial spring compression force one can achieve an almost infinite number of variable stick force required to move the elevator in either direction.
OC
PS: One caveat -- To take true advantage of this system for pitch trim one must have sufficient travel of the linear actuator to achieve the desired maximum nose up and maximum nose down pitch conditions desired. The puny 1.2 inch travel of a Ray Allen servo is not likely to do the job.
============================
Saturday, April 20, 2013 7:54 AM
Hi OC,
Sorry didn't mean something was specially wrong .... Is that most lighties share that common lack of harmony of control feel with roll and pitch .... ,
With our Ailerons which are specially wholesome ( non tapered) .. some 'leverage' ... is going to be required .. (specially with increased speed !) ...
Where as elevators are mostly light ..!? .. In theory achieving mechanical leverage advantage in equal measure to arrive at uniform control input between pitch and roll is straight fwd .... but carn't think of any ( admit am only ppl and not flown very many types ..!) .., that have achieved it ..?!
Playing with bell crank ratios is the logical way .. but would be super laborious I'm sure ... With my adjustable length stick ... roll is as light/heavy as my personal preference ( for whatever speed .. ) .... However pitch which is normally light gets lighter with extra leverage grrr .... Am surprised someone hasn't come up with some sort of fail safe dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to harmonise together with Aileron input feel .... , probably there is ... but i just haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,
Anyway am happy at present to retract down the stick for xcrountry legs and map reading/iPad etc ...,
Just was that stick position came up that's all ... ,
Cheers
= --> http://forums.matronics.comsp; -nics.com/contribution" =======
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[quote][b]
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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:00 pm Post subject: Control Force Harmony |
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Jerzy.. How many inches did you add? Is this for the TR4 or TR1?
On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 2:40 PM, jerzy krasinski <jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net (jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
[quote]I added a couple of inches to the elevator extending it backwards.
This increased authority of the elevator and increased forces on the elevator harmonizing the elevator and the ailerons
without any additional mechano-electro-springo gizmos.
Jerzy
From: Graham Brighton <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au (gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au)>
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, April 22, 2013 1:57:09 AM
Subject: Re: Control Force Harmony
--> KIS-List message posted by: "Graham Brighton" <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au (gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au)>
Hi OC,
Thx for ur great reply ... neat idea to work the Springs in compression ..... think i get it ok .. but would be good to see the install .... do have any Pics at all .. ??
Cheers
Graham
.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 5:23 AM
To: "BRIGHTON GRAHAM" <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au (gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au)>; "KIS-LIST MATRONICS" <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Control Force Harmony
| Quote: | --> KIS-List message posted by: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>
4/21/2013
> Hello Graham, You wrote: Am surprised someone hasn't come up with some sort of fail safe dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to harmonise together with Aileron input feel .... , probably there is ... but i just haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody .??,
|
>
| Quote: | There is such a device and I have one installed on my KIS TR-1. Read about it in my KIS list 1/7/2006 posting copied here:
"1/7/2006 Hello Bill, There is more to this pitch trim by springs system than meets the eye. The typical system uses two springs in tension with an arm that moves the spring center connect point to adjust. This works, but as you have discovered has some sloppyness or imprecision to it. Maybe because the two springs are always in play. A local Glasair builder has developed a spring trim system that is superior. Can be used for pitch, aileron, or rudder. It consists of two springs in compression between the ends of a tube and a rod sliding within that tube with a nylon slider block which acts as a center stop between the two springs. The slider block is normally connected to an electric trim positioning motor and the end of the rod is connected to the control surface bellcrank. The result is a much more positive repositioning capability of the trim center point and the fact that when either control input is made or aerodynamic forces move the control surface only one spring is in play, the one being compressed. Adjustment of the trim center point is accomplished by operating the electric trim positioning motor. Contact me if interested in pursuing this idea further. OC"
>
|
| Quote: | My motivation for installing this device was to accomplish pitch trim without having a tab installed on my elevator, it could also be installed for the purpose of changing pitch control forces with the trim capability just an added benefit. By changing the length of the tube and rod, the springs installed on each, and (for fine tuning) spacers on either the tube or rod to increase initial spring compression force one can achieve an almost infinite number of variable stick force required to move the elevator in either direction.
>
|
| Quote: | OC
PS: One caveat -- To take true advantage of this system for pitch trim one must have sufficient travel of the linear actuator to achieve the desired maximum nose up and maximum nose down pitch conditions desired. The puny 1.2 inch travel of a Ray Allen servo is not likely to do the job.
>
|
| Quote: | ============================
|
| Quote: | Saturday, April 20, 2013 7:54 AM
Hi OC,
Sorry didn't mean something was specially wrong .... Is that most lighties share that common lack of harmony of control feel with roll and pitch .... ,
> With our Ailerons which are specially wholesome ( non tapered) .. some 'leverage' ... is going to be required .. (specially with increased speed !) ...
|
| Quote: |
Where as elevators are mostly light ..!? .. In theory achieving mechanical leverage advantage in equal measure to arrive at uniform control input between pitch and roll is straight fwd ... but carn't think of any ( admit am only ppl and not flown very many types ..!) .., that have achieved it ..?!
>
|
| Quote: | Playing with bell crank ratios is the logical way .. but would be super laborious I'm sure ... With my adjustable length stick ... roll is as light/heavy as my personal preference ( for whatever speed .. ) .... However pitch which is normally light gets lighter with extra leverage grrr .... Am surprised someone hasn't come up with some sort of fail safe dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to harmonise together with Aileron input feel .... , probably there is ... but i just haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,
>
|
| Quote: | Anyway am happy at present to retract down the stick for xcrountry legs and map reading/iPad etc ...,
Just was that stick position came up that's all ... ,
Cheers
|
| Quote: |
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics KIS-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List |
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ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:11 pm Post subject: Control Force Harmony |
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Something else might be in the mix, I have a 1 3/4" extension on my elevator
and another TR-1 on the field has the stock elevator and his has noticeably
more resistance than mine but not near as much as the ailerons at cruise
speed. He does run out of elevator authority when landing so he just lands a
little faster. I understand that springs have been used by manufacturers for
years to achieve a balance between control systems. I believe Cirrus uses
them in the side stick system.
Tim
_____
From: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jerzy krasinski
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 12:40 PM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Control Force Harmony
I added a couple of inches to the elevator extending it backwards.
This increased authority of the elevator and increased forces on the
elevator harmonizing the elevator and the ailerons
without any additional mechano-electro-springo gizmos.
Jerzy
_____
From: Graham Brighton <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au>
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, April 22, 2013 1:57:09 AM
Subject: Re: Control Force Harmony
Hi OC,
Thx for ur great reply ... neat idea to work the Springs in
compression ..... think i get it ok .. but would be good to see the install
... do have any Pics at all .. ??
Cheers
Graham
| | - The Matronics KIS-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List |
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| Back to top |
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ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:15 pm Post subject: Control Force Harmony |
|
|
This is a long time issue for the TR-1. Rich and Vance advised me to do the
extension about 1995 after a customer tried it with good results. One of the
builders in Europe I believe.
Tim
_____
From: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 3:00 PM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Control Force Harmony
Jerzy.. How many inches did you add? Is this for the TR4 or TR1?
On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 2:40 PM, jerzy krasinski
<jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I added a couple of inches to the elevator extending it backwards.
This increased authority of the elevator and increased forces on the
elevator harmonizing the elevator and the ailerons
without any additional mechano-electro-springo gizmos.
Jerzy
_____
From: Graham Brighton <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au>
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, April 22, 2013 1:57:09 AM
Subject: Re: Control Force Harmony
Hi OC,
Thx for ur great reply ... neat idea to work the Springs in
compression ..... think i get it ok .. but would be good to see the install
... do have any Pics at all .. ??
Cheers
Graham
| | - The Matronics KIS-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List |
|
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jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglo
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:14 pm Post subject: Control Force Harmony |
|
|
I forgot the exact number, would have to go to the airport and measurem but it was just below 2 inches.
It was TR4
Jerzy
From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com>
To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com" <kis-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Mon, April 22, 2013 5:05:43 PM
Subject: Re: Control Force Harmony
Jerzy.. How many inches did you add? Is this for the TR4 or TR1?
On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 2:40 PM, jerzy krasinski <jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net (jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | I added a couple of inches to the elevator extending it backwards.
This increased authority of the elevator and increased forces on the elevator harmonizing the elevator and the ailerons
without any additional mechano-electro-springo gizmos.
Jerzy
From: Graham Brighton <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au (gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au)>
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, April 22, 2013 1:57:09 AM
Subject: Re: Control Force Harmony
--> KIS-List message posted by: "Graham Brighton" <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au (gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au)>
Hi OC,
Thx for ur great reply ... neat idea to work the Springs in compression ..... think i get it ok .. but would be good to see the install .... do have any Pics at all .. ??
Cheers
Graham
.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 5:23 AM
To: "BRIGHTON GRAHAM" <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au (gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au)>; "KIS-LIST MATRONICS" <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Control Force Harmony
| Quote: | --> KIS-List message posted by: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>
4/21/2013
> Hello Graham, You wrote: “Am surprised someone hasn't come up with some sort of fail safe dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to harmonise together with Aileron input feel .... , probably there is ... but i just haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,”
|
>
| Quote: | There is such a device and I have one installed on my KIS TR-1. Read about it in my KIS list 1/7/2006 posting copied here:
"1/7/2006 Hello Bill, There is more to this pitch trim by springs system than meets the eye. The typical system uses two springs in tension with an arm that moves the spring center connect point to adjust. This works, but as you have discovered has some sloppyness or imprecision to it. Maybe because the two springs are always in play. A local Glasair builder has developed a spring trim system that is superior. Can be used for pitch, aileron, or rudder. It consists of two springs in compression between the ends of a tube and a rod sliding within that tube with a nylon slider block which acts as a center stop between the two springs. The slider block is normally connected to an electric trim positioning motor and the end of the rod is connected to the control surface bellcrank. The result is a much more positive repositioning capability of the trim center point and the fact that when either control input is made or aerodynamic forces move the control surface only one spring is in play, the one being compressed. Adjustment of the trim center point is accomplished by operating the electric trim positioning motor. Contact me if interested in pursuing this idea further. OC"
>
|
| Quote: | My motivation for installing this device was to accomplish pitch trim without having a tab installed on my elevator, it could also be installed for the purpose of changing pitch control forces with the trim capability just an added benefit. By changing the length of the tube and rod, the springs installed on each, and (for fine tuning) spacers on either the tube or rod to increase initial spring compression force one can achieve an almost infinite number of variable stick force required to move the elevator in either direction.
>
|
| Quote: | OC
PS: One caveat -- To take true advantage of this system for pitch trim one must have sufficient travel of the linear actuator to achieve the desired maximum nose up and maximum nose down pitch conditions desired. The puny 1.2 inch travel of a Ray Allen servo is not likely to do the job.
>
|
| Quote: | ============================
|
| Quote: | Saturday, April 20, 2013 7:54 AM
Hi OC,
Sorry didn't mean something was specially wrong .... Is that most lighties share that common lack of harmony of control feel with roll and pitch .... ,
> With our Ailerons which are specially wholesome ( non tapered) .. some 'leverage' ... is going to be required .. (specially with increased speed !) ...
|
| Quote: |
Where as elevators are mostly light ..!? .. In theory achieving mechanical leverage advantage in equal measure to arrive at uniform control input between pitch and roll is straight fwd .... but carn't think of any ( admit am only ppl and not flown very many types ..!) .., that have achieved it ..?!
>
|
| Quote: | Playing with bell crank ratios is the logical way .. but would be super laborious I'm sure ... With my adjustable length stick ... roll is as light/heavy as my personal preference ( for whatever speed .. ) .... However pitch which is normally light gets lighter with extra leverage grrr .... Am surprised someone hasn't come up with some sort of fail safe dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to harmonise together with Aileron input feel .... , probably there is ... but i just haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,
>
|
| Quote: | Anyway am happy at present to retract down the stick for xcrountry legs and map reading/iPad etc ...,
Just was that stick position came up that's all ... ,
Cheers
|
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.ctarget="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matron--> |
| | - The Matronics KIS-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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fredorosa(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:54 am Post subject: Control Force Harmony |
|
|
I extended the elevator 1 1/2". Procedure is posted on Bob's web site.
Al
On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 2:14 AM, jerzy krasinski <jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net (jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
[quote]I forgot the exact number, would have to go to the airport and measurem but it was just below 2 inches.
It was TR4
Jerzy
From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)>
To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)" <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Mon, April 22, 2013 5:05:43 PM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: Control Force Harmony
Jerzy.. How many inches did you add? Is this for the TR4 or TR1?
On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 2:40 PM, jerzy krasinski <jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net (jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | I added a couple of inches to the elevator extending it backwards.
This increased authority of the elevator and increased forces on the elevator harmonizing the elevator and the ailerons
without any additional mechano-electro-springo gizmos.
Jerzy
From: Graham Brighton <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au (gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au)>
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, April 22, 2013 1:57:09 AM
Subject: Re: Control Force Harmony
--> KIS-List message posted by: "Graham Brighton" <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au (gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au)>
Hi OC,
Thx for ur great reply ... neat idea to work the Springs in compression .... think i get it ok .. but would be good to see the install .... do have any Pics at all .. ??
Cheers
Graham
.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 5:23 AM
To: "BRIGHTON GRAHAM" <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au (gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au)>; "KIS-LIST MATRONICS" <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Control Force Harmony
| Quote: | --> KIS-List message posted by: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>
4/21/2013
>
|
> Hello Graham, You wrote: Am surprised someone hasn't come up with some sort of fail safe dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to harmonise together with Aileron input feel .... , probably there is ... but i just haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody .??,
>
| Quote: | There is such a device and I have one installed on my KIS TR-1. Read about it in my KIS list 1/7/2006 posting copied here:
"1/7/2006 Hello Bill, There is more to this pitch trim by springs system than meets the eye. The typical system uses two springs in tension with an arm that moves the spring center connect point to adjust. This works, but as you have discovered has some sloppyness or imprecision to it. Maybe because the two springs are always in play. A local Glasair builder has developed a spring trim system that is superior. Can be used for pitch, aileron, or rudder. It consists of two springs in compression between the ends of a tube and a rod sliding within that tube with a nylon slider block which acts as a center stop between the two springs. The slider block is normally connected to an electric trim positioning motor and the end of the rod is connected to the control surface bellcrank. The result is a much more positive repositioning capability of the trim center point and the fact that when either control input is made or aerodynamic forces move the control surface only one spring is in play, the one being compressed. Adjustment of the trim center point is accomplished by operating the electric trim positioning motor. Contact me if interested in pursuing this idea further. OC"
>
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| Quote: | My motivation for installing this device was to accomplish pitch trim without having a tab installed on my elevator, it could also be installed for the purpose of changing pitch control forces with the trim capability just an added benefit. By changing the length of the tube and rod, the springs installed on each, and (for fine tuning) spacers on either the tube or rod to increase initial spring compression force one can achieve an almost infinite number of variable stick force required to move the elevator in either direction.
>
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| Quote: | OC
PS: One caveat -- To take true advantage of this system for pitch trim one must have sufficient travel of the linear actuator to achieve the desired maximum nose up and maximum nose down pitch conditions desired. The puny 1.2 inch travel of a Ray Allen servo is not likely to do the job.
>
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| Quote: | ============================
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| Quote: | Saturday, April 20, 2013 7:54 AM
Hi OC,
Sorry didn't mean something was specially wrong .... Is that most lighties share that common lack of harmony of control feel with roll and pitch .... ,
> With our Ailerons which are specially wholesome ( non tapered) .. some 'leverage' ... is going to be required .. (specially with increased speed !) ...
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| Quote: |
Where as elevators are mostly light ..!? .. In theory achieving mechanical leverage advantage in equal measure to arrive at uniform control input between pitch and roll is straight fwd ... but carn't think of any ( admit am only ppl and not flown very many types ..!) .., that have achieved it ..?!
>
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| Quote: | Playing with bell crank ratios is the logical way .. but would be super laborious I'm sure ... With my adjustable length stick ... roll is as light/heavy as my personal preference ( for whatever speed .. ) .... However pitch which is normally light gets lighter with extra leverage grrr .... Am surprised someone hasn't come up with some sort of fail safe dampener devise to enable Elevator input feel to be adjusted to harmonise together with Aileron input feel .... , probably there is ... but i just haven't stumbled across it sob ..,!?? , anybody ..??,
>
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| Quote: | Anyway am happy at present to retract down the stick for xcrountry legs and map reading/iPad etc ...,
Just was that stick position came up that's all ... ,
Cheers
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Flyinisfun(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:47 pm Post subject: Control Force Harmony |
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Has anybody done a leading edge modification as suggested? What happened
to that discussion?
Jesse Wright
In a message dated 4/23/2013 4:54:02 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net writes:
I forgot the exact number, would have to go to the airport and measurem
but it was just below 2 inches.
It was TR4
Jerzy
____________________________________
From: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com>
To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com" <kis-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Mon, April 22, 2013 5:05:43 PM
Subject: Re: Control Force Harmony
Jerzy.. How many inches did you add? Is this for the TR4 or TR1?
On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 2:40 PM, jerzy krasinski
<_jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net_ (mailto:jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net) > wrote:
I added a couple of inches to the elevator extending it backwards.
This increased authority of the elevator and increased forces on the
elevator harmonizing the elevator and the ailerons
without any additional mechano-electro-springo gizmos.
Jerzy
____________________________________
From: Graham Brighton <_gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au_
(mailto:gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au) >
To: _kis-list(at)matronics.com_ (mailto:kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, April 22, 2013 1:57:09 AM
Subject: Re: Control Force Harmony
<_gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au_ (mailto:gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au) >
Hi OC,
Thx for ur great reply ... neat idea to work the Springs in compression
.... think i get it ok .. but would be good to see the install .... do have
any Pics at all .. ??
Cheers
Graham
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