Picky picky picky would you have rather I had said A&P?
do not archive
RICHARD MILLER wrote:
>
>jerry
>
>i assume that you are not from the states using a+e, but if you are, look at it
from my point of view. if i have to sign off the aircraft, it has to follow
the rules, and since i have no rules that tell me autozone parts are ok or not
for flight i am stuck in the possition of approving a flying bar stool for flight.
i think the faa screwed the pooch here. Second owner on an experimental
aicraft puts the i/a in an almost imposible situation. we are not jealous, we
just want to keep our tickets. and not get sued.
>rick
>
>
>--- On Sat, 8/30/08, Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>>From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net>
>>Subject: Re: Builder Available!
>>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 9:20 PM
>><jsflyrv@verizon.net>
>>
>>I find that a lot of A&Es and AIs are just a tad bit
>>jealous of home
>>builders. Some are even down right hostile
>>and do not think it is right that we should be able to work
>>on an
>>aircraft when they have spent a sizable
>>amount of time and money getting their certficates. Now
>>this statment
>>really gets me going.
>>
>>"Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side in
>>2001 to become a
>>legitimate "Real" kit builder. "
>>
>>Like I am not a "real legitimate kit builder"?
>>
>>Jerry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Ralph Finch wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I'm really not sure what game you're playing.
>>>I went to a workshop/build class that started with my
>>>
>>>
>>empennage in kit
>>
>>
>>>form and after 6 days of instruction and building left
>>>
>>>
>>with a nearly
>>
>>
>>>completed emp. I and the instructor worked about 45
>>>
>>>
>>hours each on the
>>
>>
>>>building, for a total of 90 hours--just for the emp.
>>>
>>>
>>An interesting
>>
>>
>>>data point, because the other builders I've talked
>>>
>>>
>>to that did all the
>>
>>
>>>emp work themselves and also of course were
>>>
>>>
>>self-taught took several
>>
>>
>>>times 90 hours; 200-300 I think. Which goes to show
>>>
>>>
>>that hours of
>>
>>
>>>building is very dependent on skill and prior
>>>
>>>
>>knowledge.
>>
>>
>>>You say you are confused. I say you are a fanatic:
>>>
>>>
>>extremely devoted
>>
>>
>>>to a cause and disapproving, even angry, of those who
>>>
>>>
>>do not share
>>
>>
>>>your level of commitment to that cause.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On
>>>
>>>
>>Behalf Of John Cox
>>
>>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 8:13 PM
>>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
>>>
>>> Okay, I'll play Ralph.
>>>
>>> You did (50-50) or 25.51% of the total assembly,
>>>
>>>
>>the hired
>>
>>
>>> professionals did 25.49% for an exact cut of >
>>>
>>>
>>51.00% of the
>>
>>
>>> assembly. Congrats! Fabrication by the
>>>
>>>
>>manufacturer of parts did
>>
>>
>>> <48.99%. Result 100.00% of the final product.
>>>
>>>
>>Step to the window
>>
>>
>>> for you Lottery Winnings.
>>>
>>> The FAA is working with manufacturer's of
>>>
>>>
>>approved OBAM kit
>>
>>
>>> aircraft to establish the Fab percentage. Existing
>>>
>>>
>>kit approvals
>>
>>
>>> will fall below 49.0% and may be as little as 0.5%
>>>
>>>
>>for Plans
>>
>>
>>> built. Under the new proposed Policy (not a rule)
>>>
>>>
>>the
>>
>>
>>> documentation of Build Assist will require a new
>>>
>>>
>>more specific
>>
>>
>>> written log of Builder Assist (not just hired
>>>
>>>
>>guns). Under the new
>>
>>
>>> rules, how will you reach 51.0% or better from the
>>>
>>>
>>work that you
>>
>>
>>> personally do? Not what your check wrote. Not that
>>>
>>>
>>you also might
>>
>>
>>> want the DAR to process your request to be called
>>>
>>>
>>a Repairman so
>>
>>
>>> you can complete Conditional Inspections.
>>>
>>> Many kits require 2000+ man/hours to complete (the
>>>
>>>
>>RV-10 more like
>>
>>
>>> 2500-2750 hours). Your 25.51% would equal 550
>>>
>>>
>>hours spread over
>>
>>
>>> two weeks is 275 hours per week. You were on the
>>>
>>>
>>floor maybe 40
>>
>>
>>> hours (lets make that 60 hours per week) of the
>>>
>>>
>>most physical work
>>
>>
>>> you have done in decades with only 20 seconds to
>>>
>>>
>>catch your
>>
>>
>>> breath. Two weeks = 120 hours to Taxi. I am now
>>>
>>>
>>lost and confused
>>
>>
>>> how you met the 550 hours (I lost 175 hours
>>>
>>>
>>somewhere) of build
>>
>>
>>> other than the exhausting effort to write the
>>>
>>>
>>check for the TWTT
>>
>>
>>> program. Now don't read too much into the
>>>
>>>
>>above math. Marc Cook,
>>
>>
>>> Editor of Kitplanes thinks this is complaint (and
>>>
>>>
>>Ethical) with
>>
>>
>>> the intent of amateur built kit manufacture. Van
>>>
>>>
>>sells more kits,
>>
>>
>>> Stein sells more avionics, Abby sells more
>>>
>>>
>>interiors, the US
>>
>>
>>> aviation industry sells more hardware. life is
>>>
>>>
>>GOOD.
>>
>>
>>> You say you didn't even own a shop vac. Many
>>>
>>>
>>builders will acquire
>>
>>
>>> more than $2,000 of build tools that no amount of
>>>
>>>
>>effort will
>>
>>
>>> cause them to pry from their "Cold, Dying
>>>
>>>
>>Hand". I have tried to
>>
>>
>>> buy some of them, boy was that an insult.
>>>
>>> Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side
>>>
>>>
>>in 2001 to
>>
>>
>>> become a legitimate "Real" kit builder.
>>>
>>>
>>Quit my career, attended
>>
>>
>>> A&P school (at more than 50 years old),
>>>
>>>
>>completed Orals and
>>
>>
>>> Practicals. Got my IA, became an EAA Tech Advisor,
>>>
>>>
>>have help
>>
>>
>>> scores of builders and went to work for the
>>>
>>>
>>airlines to gain even
>>
>>
>>> more tribal knowledge. Most - but not many OBAM
>>>
>>>
>>builders are
>>
>>
>>> prideful and think they have a handle on the
>>>
>>>
>>knowledge to maintain
>>
>>
>>> their pride and joy. They have a right to sell it
>>>
>>>
>>to John Q.
>>
>>
>>> Public with a willingness to write a check in that
>>>
>>>
>>pursuit. I will
>>
>>
>>> offer than many do little to show any DAR that
>>>
>>>
>>they know squat as
>>
>>
>>> to how to maintain let alone troubleshoot, life
>>>
>>>
>>altering
>>
>>
>>> mechanical issues that tend to arise. Now,
>>>
>>>
>>don't go ballistic
>>
>>
>>> here.I am reading about that damned Slick Mag
>>>
>>>
>>bulletin with my
>>
>>
>>> other eye. I acknowledge the system worked well
>>>
>>>
>>until the money
>>
>>
>>> created the "Professional Build Assist".
>>>
>>>
>>Oh by the way, the
>>
>>
>>> Professional field it is totally unregulated and
>>>
>>>
>>uses untrained
>>
>>
>>> Professional worker, many are not US citizens. I
>>>
>>>
>>just have trouble
>>
>>
>>> swallowing how this TWTT and hired guns are
>>>
>>>
>>helping this avocation
>>
>>
>>> that led me to leave a lucrative career to pursue
>>>
>>>
>>what my heart
>>
>>
>>> told me was what my Walter Mitty side wanted me to
>>>
>>>
>>go out the door
>>
>>
>>> with.
>>>
>>> The problem is not with you the builder. It is
>>>
>>>
>>with the
>>
>>
>>> bastardization by the EAA, the FAA and the DARs
>>>
>>>
>>who would sell out
>>
>>
>>> their neighbor to make a buck. Now let's hear
>>>
>>>
>>more dialog on how
>>
>>
>>> much time, how much money and how many questions
>>>
>>>
>>the typical OBAM
>>
>>
>>> kit builder answers in an Orals & Practicals
>>>
>>>
>>Exam in front of
>>
>>
>>> their DAR. Wouldn't the world be perfect if
>>>
>>>
>>the OBAM builder could
>>
>>
>>> match skills in maintaining his pride and joy with
>>>
>>>
>>those damned A
>>
>>
>>> & Ps that I resemble in my day job.
>>>
>>> My answer, if a Pro touches it move to the other
>>>
>>>
>>window and make
>>
>>
>>> it a Primary Aircraft. If an Amateur Builder does
>>>51.0% , tip
>>> your hat and smile you are a Builder/Aviator of
>>>
>>>
>>the First Order.
>>
>>
>>> if you can't complete a comprehensive review
>>>
>>>
>>by the DAR on the
>>
>>
>>> skills to maintain it, waive goodbye to that
>>>
>>>
>>coveted Repairman
>>
>>
>>> Certificate. Most DARs don't even complete a
>>>
>>>
>>comprehensive safety
>>
>>
>>> inspection let alone an Oral towards granting a
>>>
>>>
>>Repairman
>>
>>
>>> Certificate. It is all about review of correctly
>>>
>>>
>>processed FAA
>>
>>
>>> mandated paperwork.
>>>
>>> As an EAA Tech Advisor, I keep pinching my check,
>>>
>>>
>>telling myself
>>
>>
>>> "There is no standard" for OBAM. Shut
>>>
>>>
>>Up, Smile and help by
>>
>>
>>> pointing out kernels of wisdom that might lower
>>>
>>>
>>the accident rate
>>
>>
>>> for the insurance pool that we all pay for. For
>>>
>>>
>>those guys and
>>
>>
>>> gals with more money than smarts, I say Primary
>>>
>>>
>>Aircraft leave us
>>
>>
>>> struggling kit Builders alone. When I engage in
>>>
>>>
>>conversations with
>>
>>
>>> respected Kit builders, it becomes clear they have
>>>
>>>
>>the best
>>
>>
>>> interests of their family, their community and all
>>>
>>>
>>of us at stake.
>>
>>
>>> Professionals please leave the arena.
>>>
>>> Oh, did I mention there are 30 days left to make
>>>
>>>
>>courtesy comment
>>
>>
>>> to the FAA on this Rule (Policy) Change.
>>>
>>> John Cox
>>>
>>> Do not Archive
>>>
>>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On
>>>
>>>
>>Behalf Of Ralph Finch
>>
>>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 7:00 PM
>>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
>>>
>>> Wrong conclusion. In your example the aircraft
>>>
>>>
>>owner did only 10%
>>
>>
>>> of the build, obviously not meeting the 51%
>>>
>>>
>>minimum.
>>
>>
>>> In the class or workshop that I took, it was
>>>
>>>
>>50-50, there was one
>>
>>
>>> pro guy per amateur owner-builder. And that was
>>>
>>>
>>not normal,
>>
>>
>>> usually more amateurs than pros. Anyway we all
>>>
>>>
>>worked like dogs
>>
>>
>>> the whole week. If I stopped more than 20 secs to
>>>
>>>
>>catch my breath
>>
>>
>>> the pro guy was on my case! As an office worker I
>>>
>>>
>>hadn't done so
>>
>>
>>> much physical work for decades.
>>>
>>> I learned great mechanical skills about riveting,
>>>
>>>
>>squeezing,
>>
>>
>>> grinding, etc., all things I really needed since I
>>>
>>>
>>didn't know
>>
>>
>>> squat going in. The only thing I didn't get
>>>
>>>
>>was time puzzling
>>
>>
>>> through the plans and figuring things out, there
>>>
>>>
>>was just no time
>>
>>
>>> for that. We amateurs came out with real, new
>>>
>>>
>>skills and
>>
>>
>>> well-built empennages. Now I am toiling in my
>>>
>>>
>>garage with help
>>
>>
>>> from VAF, this list, and a couple of buddies in
>>>
>>>
>>town who are also
>>
>>
>>> building RVs. But the beginning workshop was a
>>>
>>>
>>huge help and
>>
>>
>>> confidence builder for guys like me, who don't
>>>
>>>
>>have any handyman
>>
>>
>>> background at all. I didn't even own a shop
>>>
>>>
>>vac!
>>
>>
>>> The TWTT and its kind are clearly frauds and I
>>>
>>>
>>don't understand
>>
>>
>>> how they're still in business. Why the FAA has
>>>
>>>
>>to promulgate new
>>
>>
>>> amateur rules instead of enforcing the current
>>>
>>>
>>ones is a mystery
>>
>>
>>> to me. Though I do think the FAA should generate
>>>
>>>
>>new rules
>>
>>
>>> allowing the completely pro-built experimental
>>>
>>>
>>aircraft but
>>
>>
>>> demanding very high, factory-like build standards
>>>
>>>
>>and of course no
>>
>>
>>> repairman's certificate for the owner.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On
>>>
>>>
>>Behalf Of John Cox
>>
>>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:09 PM
>>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
>>>
>>> If the owner is always working and doing 10%
>>>
>>>
>>of the build and
>>
>>
>>> the other six builder assist employees (ie
>>>
>>>
>>TWTT) do 90% of the
>>
>>
>>> build, but the owner was learning by watching,
>>>
>>>
>>listening and
>>
>>
>>> writing a check, do I conclude that you think
>>>
>>>
>>this qualifies?
>>
>>
>>> The wide spread misunderstanding provides a
>>>
>>>
>>solid base for the
>>
>>
>>> FAA to implement a new policy.
>>>
>>> I still love those guys toiling in their
>>>
>>>
>>garage with little
>>
>>
>>> outside assistance who pose questions and
>>>
>>>
>>become the intent
>>
>>
>>> and integrity of this great ole abused rule.
>>>
>>> John Cox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>>>
>>>http://forums.matronics.com
>>>
>>>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>>>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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