Re: Builder Available!


Subject:    Re: Builder Available!
From:    Jerry Springer (jsflyrv@verizon.net)
Date:    Tue Sep 02 - 11:11 PM
Picky picky picky would you have rather I had said A&P?

do not archive


RICHARD MILLER wrote:

>
>jerry
>
>i assume that you are not from the states using a+e, but if you are, look at it
from my point of view. if i have to sign off the aircraft, it has to follow
the rules, and since i have no rules that tell me autozone parts are ok or not
for flight i am stuck in the possition of approving a flying bar stool for flight.
i  think the faa screwed the pooch here. Second owner on an experimental
aicraft puts the i/a in an almost imposible situation. we are not jealous, we
just want to keep our tickets. and not get sued. 
>rick 
>
>
>--- On Sat, 8/30/08, Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net>
>>Subject: Re: Builder Available!
>>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 9:20 PM
>><jsflyrv@verizon.net>
>>
>>I find that a lot of A&Es and AIs are just a tad bit
>>jealous of home 
>>builders. Some are even down right hostile
>>and do not think it is right that we should be able to work
>>on an 
>>aircraft when they have spent a sizable
>>amount of time and money getting their certficates. Now
>>this statment 
>>really gets me going.
>>
>>"Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side in
>>2001 to become a 
>>legitimate "Real" kit builder. "
>>
>>Like I am not a "real legitimate kit builder"?
>>
>>Jerry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Ralph Finch wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I'm really not sure what game you're playing.
>>>I went to a workshop/build class that started with my
>>>      
>>>
>>empennage in kit 
>>    
>>
>>>form and after 6 days of instruction and building left
>>>      
>>>
>>with a nearly 
>>    
>>
>>>completed emp. I and the instructor worked about 45
>>>      
>>>
>>hours each on the 
>>    
>>
>>>building, for a total of 90 hours--just for the emp.
>>>      
>>>
>>An interesting 
>>    
>>
>>>data point, because the other builders I've talked
>>>      
>>>
>>to that did all the 
>>    
>>
>>>emp work themselves and also of course were
>>>      
>>>
>>self-taught took several 
>>    
>>
>>>times 90 hours; 200-300 I think. Which goes to show
>>>      
>>>
>>that hours of 
>>    
>>
>>>building is very dependent on skill and prior
>>>      
>>>
>>knowledge.
>>    
>>
>>>You say you are confused. I say you are a fanatic:
>>>      
>>>
>>extremely devoted 
>>    
>>
>>>to a cause and disapproving, even angry, of those who
>>>      
>>>
>>do not share 
>>    
>>
>>>your level of commitment to that cause.
>>>
>>>   
>>>      
>>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>    
>>
>>>    From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>>>    [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On
>>>      
>>>
>>Behalf Of John Cox
>>    
>>
>>>    Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 8:13 PM
>>>    To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>>    Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
>>>
>>>    Okay, I'll play Ralph.
>>>
>>>    You did (50-50) or 25.51% of the total assembly,
>>>      
>>>
>>the hired
>>    
>>
>>>    professionals did 25.49% for an exact cut of >
>>>      
>>>
>>51.00% of the
>>    
>>
>>>    assembly. Congrats! Fabrication by the
>>>      
>>>
>>manufacturer of parts did
>>    
>>
>>>    <48.99%. Result 100.00% of the final product.
>>>      
>>>
>>Step to the window
>>    
>>
>>>    for you Lottery Winnings.
>>>
>>>    The FAA is working with manufacturer's of
>>>      
>>>
>>approved OBAM kit
>>    
>>
>>>    aircraft to establish the Fab percentage. Existing
>>>      
>>>
>>kit approvals
>>    
>>
>>>    will fall below 49.0% and may be as little as 0.5%
>>>      
>>>
>>for Plans
>>    
>>
>>>    built. Under the new proposed Policy (not a rule)
>>>      
>>>
>>the
>>    
>>
>>>    documentation of Build Assist will require a new
>>>      
>>>
>>more specific
>>    
>>
>>>    written log of Builder Assist (not just hired
>>>      
>>>
>>guns). Under the new
>>    
>>
>>>    rules, how will you reach 51.0% or better from the
>>>      
>>>
>>work that you
>>    
>>
>>>    personally do? Not what your check wrote. Not that
>>>      
>>>
>>you also might
>>    
>>
>>>    want the DAR to process your request to be called
>>>      
>>>
>>a Repairman so
>>    
>>
>>>    you can complete Conditional Inspections.
>>>
>>>    Many kits require 2000+ man/hours to complete (the
>>>      
>>>
>>RV-10 more like
>>    
>>
>>>    2500-2750 hours). Your 25.51% would equal 550
>>>      
>>>
>>hours spread over
>>    
>>
>>>    two weeks is 275 hours per week. You were on the
>>>      
>>>
>>floor maybe 40
>>    
>>
>>>    hours (lets make that 60 hours per week) of the
>>>      
>>>
>>most physical work
>>    
>>
>>>    you have done in decades with only 20 seconds to
>>>      
>>>
>>catch your
>>    
>>
>>>    breath. Two weeks = 120 hours to Taxi. I am now
>>>      
>>>
>>lost and confused
>>    
>>
>>>    how you met the 550 hours (I lost 175 hours
>>>      
>>>
>>somewhere) of build
>>    
>>
>>>    other than the exhausting effort to write the
>>>      
>>>
>>check for the TWTT
>>    
>>
>>>    program. Now don't read too much into the
>>>      
>>>
>>above math. Marc Cook,
>>    
>>
>>>    Editor of Kitplanes thinks this is complaint (and
>>>      
>>>
>>Ethical) with
>>    
>>
>>>    the intent of amateur built kit manufacture. Van
>>>      
>>>
>>sells more kits,
>>    
>>
>>>    Stein sells more avionics, Abby sells more
>>>      
>>>
>>interiors, the US
>>    
>>
>>>    aviation industry sells more hardware. life is
>>>      
>>>
>>GOOD.
>>    
>>
>>>    You say you didn't even own a shop vac. Many
>>>      
>>>
>>builders will acquire
>>    
>>
>>>    more than $2,000 of build tools that no amount of
>>>      
>>>
>>effort will
>>    
>>
>>>    cause them to pry from their "Cold, Dying
>>>      
>>>
>>Hand". I have tried to
>>    
>>
>>>    buy some of them, boy was that an insult.
>>>
>>>    Now here is the rub. I went over to the dark side
>>>      
>>>
>>in 2001 to
>>    
>>
>>>    become a legitimate "Real" kit builder.
>>>      
>>>
>>Quit my career, attended
>>    
>>
>>>    A&P school (at more than 50 years old),
>>>      
>>>
>>completed Orals and
>>    
>>
>>>    Practicals. Got my IA, became an EAA Tech Advisor,
>>>      
>>>
>>have help
>>    
>>
>>>    scores of builders and went to work for the
>>>      
>>>
>>airlines to gain even
>>    
>>
>>>    more tribal knowledge. Most - but not many OBAM
>>>      
>>>
>>builders are
>>    
>>
>>>    prideful and think they have a handle on the
>>>      
>>>
>>knowledge to maintain
>>    
>>
>>>    their pride and joy. They have a right to sell it
>>>      
>>>
>>to John Q.
>>    
>>
>>>    Public with a willingness to write a check in that
>>>      
>>>
>>pursuit. I will
>>    
>>
>>>    offer than many do little to show any DAR that
>>>      
>>>
>>they know squat as
>>    
>>
>>>    to how to maintain let alone troubleshoot, life
>>>      
>>>
>>altering
>>    
>>
>>>    mechanical issues that tend to arise. Now,
>>>      
>>>
>>don't go ballistic
>>    
>>
>>>    here.I am reading about that damned Slick Mag
>>>      
>>>
>>bulletin with my
>>    
>>
>>>    other eye. I acknowledge the system worked well
>>>      
>>>
>>until the money
>>    
>>
>>>    created the "Professional Build Assist".
>>>      
>>>
>>Oh by the way, the
>>    
>>
>>>    Professional field it is totally unregulated and
>>>      
>>>
>>uses untrained
>>    
>>
>>>    Professional worker, many are not US citizens. I
>>>      
>>>
>>just have trouble
>>    
>>
>>>    swallowing how this TWTT and hired guns are
>>>      
>>>
>>helping this avocation
>>    
>>
>>>    that led me to leave a lucrative career to pursue
>>>      
>>>
>>what my heart
>>    
>>
>>>    told me was what my Walter Mitty side wanted me to
>>>      
>>>
>>go out the door
>>    
>>
>>>    with.
>>>
>>>    The problem is not with you the builder. It is
>>>      
>>>
>>with the
>>    
>>
>>>    bastardization by the EAA, the FAA and the DARs
>>>      
>>>
>>who would sell out
>>    
>>
>>>    their neighbor to make a buck. Now let's hear
>>>      
>>>
>>more dialog on how
>>    
>>
>>>    much time, how much money and how many questions
>>>      
>>>
>>the typical OBAM
>>    
>>
>>>    kit builder answers in an Orals & Practicals
>>>      
>>>
>>Exam in front of
>>    
>>
>>>    their DAR. Wouldn't the world be perfect if
>>>      
>>>
>>the OBAM builder could
>>    
>>
>>>    match skills in maintaining his pride and joy with
>>>      
>>>
>>those damned A
>>    
>>
>>>    & Ps that I resemble in my day job.
>>>
>>>    My answer, if a Pro touches it move to the other
>>>      
>>>
>>window and make
>>    
>>
>>>    it a Primary Aircraft. If an Amateur Builder does
>>>51.0% , tip
>>>    your hat and smile you are a Builder/Aviator of
>>>      
>>>
>>the First Order.
>>    
>>
>>>    if you can't complete a comprehensive review
>>>      
>>>
>>by the DAR on the
>>    
>>
>>>    skills to maintain it, waive goodbye to that
>>>      
>>>
>>coveted Repairman
>>    
>>
>>>    Certificate. Most DARs don't even complete a
>>>      
>>>
>>comprehensive safety
>>    
>>
>>>    inspection let alone an Oral towards granting a
>>>      
>>>
>>Repairman
>>    
>>
>>>    Certificate. It is all about review of correctly
>>>      
>>>
>>processed FAA
>>    
>>
>>>    mandated paperwork.
>>>
>>>    As an EAA Tech Advisor, I keep pinching my check,
>>>      
>>>
>>telling myself
>>    
>>
>>>    "There is no standard" for OBAM. Shut
>>>      
>>>
>>Up, Smile and help by
>>    
>>
>>>    pointing out kernels of wisdom that might lower
>>>      
>>>
>>the accident rate
>>    
>>
>>>    for the insurance pool that we all pay for. For
>>>      
>>>
>>those guys and
>>    
>>
>>>    gals with more money than smarts, I say Primary
>>>      
>>>
>>Aircraft leave us
>>    
>>
>>>    struggling kit Builders alone. When I engage in
>>>      
>>>
>>conversations with
>>    
>>
>>>    respected Kit builders, it becomes clear they have
>>>      
>>>
>>the best
>>    
>>
>>>    interests of their family, their community and all
>>>      
>>>
>>of us at stake.
>>    
>>
>>>    Professionals please leave the arena.
>>>
>>>    Oh, did I mention there are 30 days left to make
>>>      
>>>
>>courtesy comment
>>    
>>
>>>    to the FAA on this Rule (Policy) Change.
>>>
>>>    John Cox
>>>
>>>    Do not Archive
>>>
>>>    From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>>>    [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On
>>>      
>>>
>>Behalf Of Ralph Finch
>>    
>>
>>>    Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 7:00 PM
>>>    To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>>    Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
>>>
>>>    Wrong conclusion. In your example the aircraft
>>>      
>>>
>>owner did only 10%
>>    
>>
>>>    of the build, obviously not meeting the 51%
>>>      
>>>
>>minimum.
>>    
>>
>>>    In the class or workshop that I took, it was
>>>      
>>>
>>50-50, there was one
>>    
>>
>>>    pro guy per amateur owner-builder. And that was
>>>      
>>>
>>not normal,
>>    
>>
>>>    usually more amateurs than pros. Anyway we all
>>>      
>>>
>>worked like dogs
>>    
>>
>>>    the whole week. If I stopped more than 20 secs to
>>>      
>>>
>>catch my breath
>>    
>>
>>>    the pro guy was on my case! As an office worker I
>>>      
>>>
>>hadn't done so
>>    
>>
>>>    much physical work for decades.
>>>
>>>    I learned great mechanical skills about riveting,
>>>      
>>>
>>squeezing,
>>    
>>
>>>    grinding, etc., all things I really needed since I
>>>      
>>>
>>didn't know
>>    
>>
>>>    squat going in. The only thing I didn't get
>>>      
>>>
>>was time puzzling
>>    
>>
>>>    through the plans and figuring things out, there
>>>      
>>>
>>was just no time
>>    
>>
>>>    for that. We amateurs came out with real, new
>>>      
>>>
>>skills and
>>    
>>
>>>    well-built empennages. Now I am toiling in my
>>>      
>>>
>>garage with help
>>    
>>
>>>    from VAF, this list, and a couple of buddies in
>>>      
>>>
>>town who are also
>>    
>>
>>>    building RVs. But the beginning workshop was a
>>>      
>>>
>>huge help and
>>    
>>
>>>    confidence builder for guys like me, who don't
>>>      
>>>
>>have any handyman
>>    
>>
>>>    background at all. I didn't even own a shop
>>>      
>>>
>>vac!
>>    
>>
>>>    The TWTT and its kind are clearly frauds and I
>>>      
>>>
>>don't understand
>>    
>>
>>>    how they're still in business. Why the FAA has
>>>      
>>>
>>to promulgate new
>>    
>>
>>>    amateur rules instead of enforcing the current
>>>      
>>>
>>ones is a mystery
>>    
>>
>>>    to me. Though I do think the FAA should generate
>>>      
>>>
>>new rules
>>    
>>
>>>    allowing the completely pro-built experimental
>>>      
>>>
>>aircraft but
>>    
>>
>>>    demanding very high, factory-like build standards
>>>      
>>>
>>and of course no
>>    
>>
>>>    repairman's certificate for the owner.
>>>
>>>       
>>>      
>>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>    
>>
>>>        From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>>>        [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On
>>>      
>>>
>>Behalf Of John Cox
>>    
>>
>>>        Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:09 PM
>>>        To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>>        Subject: RE: RE: Builder Available!
>>>
>>>        If the owner is always working and doing 10%
>>>      
>>>
>>of the build and
>>    
>>
>>>        the other six builder assist employees (ie
>>>      
>>>
>>TWTT) do 90% of the
>>    
>>
>>>        build, but the owner was learning by watching,
>>>      
>>>
>>listening and
>>    
>>
>>>        writing a check, do I conclude that you think
>>>      
>>>
>>this qualifies?
>>    
>>
>>>        The wide spread misunderstanding provides a
>>>      
>>>
>>solid base for the
>>    
>>
>>>        FAA to implement a new policy.
>>>
>>>        I still love those guys toiling in their
>>>      
>>>
>>garage with little
>>    
>>
>>>        outside assistance who pose questions and
>>>      
>>>
>>become the intent
>>    
>>
>>>        and integrity of this great ole abused rule.
>>>
>>>        John Cox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>>>
>>>http://forums.matronics.com
>>>
>>>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>>>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>      
>
>
>  
>




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