Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review


Subject:    Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review
From:    A. Dennis Savarese (dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net)
Date:    Fri Oct 10 - 5:03 AM
With regards to Peter's statement "The knob feels about the same,", he 
is of course 100% correct.  One of the things that I did was remove the 
flap handle ball and grind flats on 4 sides of the ball to give it a 
somewhat different feel.  

Then I created a gear/flap warning "system" using a simple piezoelectric 
alarm device which operates on 28 volts and puts out a high frequency 
shrill at about 90 DB 
(http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId 62399&cp 3
2058.2032230.2032266&parentPage=family) and some 1N4001 diodes.  I 
interfaced the alarm circuit to the flap down microswitch and the nose 
gear microswitch and of course, ground and 28 volts.  If the flaps go 
down before the gear is down, the alarm sounds off.  And it is loud!  
It's not 100% fool proof, but it's certainly better than forgetting the 
gear altogether.  Although I haven't added it yet, a red or yellow lamp 
could easily be added to the instrument panel next to the airspeed 
indicator.  It would also come on with the alarm.  Once the gear goes 
down, the alarm turns off.
Dennis

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Peter K. Van Staagen 
  To: yak-list@matronics.com 
  Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:20 PM
  Subject: RE: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review


<petervs@knology.net>

  About gear up landings... I've almost done this twice when another 
plane
  entered the pattern without saying a word. Fortunately my instructor 
drilled
  in multiple gear checks and I caught it on final. What I had done both 
times
  was put the flaps down instead of the gear. The knob feels about the 
same,
  the plane decelerates, the air systems makes that familiar noise. Then 
when
  I got slowed down I put the flaps up, thinking I was putting them 
down.
  Again, the knob feels the same and there is that familiar sound. But 
the
  plane did not fly right. It was hard to slow down. I fly a close 
pattern and
  steep decent and so the throttle was at the idle stop and I was still 
fast.
  I was looking around for clues and saw the three red lights. I looked 
at
  them and thought ok the gear lights are red, wait... red is bad, red 
is bad,
  holy crap the handle is in the up position. I could not understand why 
until
  much later. I knew I had put it down. I got the gear down, checked the 
poles
  and lights and handle three more times. Then on short final realized 
my
  flaps were up. I landed with the flaps up I wasn't about to touch 
anything
  until I understood what had happened. 

  About warning horns. They don't always work. Ask my friend who landed 
his
  twin commanche gear up. He was task saturated and annoyed by the 
"stall
  warning" going off all the way from short final to touchdown. He never
  realized the tone was not the stall warning but actually the gear 
warning.

  Avoiding a gear up landing is all about discipline. Here are my rules.

  1) If I have a GIB I brief them that the only thing they have to do on 
the
  flight is to make sure I put the gear down. I tell them to make sure 
the
  three lights are green and the two poles are up. I tell them to tell 
me that
  over the intercom. No one rides without duties.

  2) I make three gear checks, one before I roll off the perch, one on 
base
  and the other on short final.

  3) I make two announcements. One on base over the radio that gear is 
down
  and pressure is up. One to the GIB, "Three Green, Three Poles." I 
expect the
  reply "Three Green, two poles." I even make the radio call at 
controlled
  fields after being cleared to land. I want that gear check on the 
towers
  tape recording, and I don=92t want to change my discipline just 
because I am
  landing somewhere different.

  4) On short final I remember the saying "Three Green over the Green."

  5) In formation flight I check everyone's gear. I make sure everyone 
makes a
  gear check radio call. If my wingman let's me land gear up, he is 
paying for
  it!

  6) If anything unusual happens in the pattern, get out the check list 
and
  start over.

  7) If you cannot remember checking the gear all three times the next 
day,
  you have to severely reprimand yourself.

  For fun, let=92s everyone list the tools they use to for gear checks.

  Squatch out.

  __|__
  __|__ ----=(*)=----
  __|__ ----=(*)=----
  __|__ ----=(*)=----
  ----=(*)=----


  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
  [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, 
Mark G
  CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
  Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:58 PM
  To: yak-list@matronics.com
  Subject: RE: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review

  Doc.  Let me know how you make out.  I agree that over a grand is a 
lot of
  money.  Too freaking much money to be honest.  You can build some 
fancy
  stuff for a grand.  I need to rethink this.  Possibly ultrasonic or 
laser
  might be more effective and cheaper.  And here I was all gung-ho for a
  little while.  
   
  Don't talk to me about the market. 
   
  Mark
   

  ________________________________

  From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Roger Kemp MD
  Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 3:32 PM
  To: yak-list@matronics.com
  Subject: RE: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review


<viperdoc@mindspring.com>

  No, not missing anything and I see your logic as hopefully you see 
mine. The
  squat switch does not have to be on the sleeve of the strut but could 
be on
  the scissor although the best place for it is on the barrel of the 
strut. At
  the tech order strut operating pressure (I forget the numbers), my 
struts
  collapse about 1/4-1/2 in with wt. on them. That may not be enough to 
be
  practical for a WOW switch.
  The ground proximity warning sonar is practical and $1295 is 
reasonable I
  guess. Just means I have to leave off another accessory planned for 
the
  winter if I chose to install this. For now the check list still works 
and my
  insurance rates remain the same. Amaratizing the $1300 over the $50 to 
$100
  extra I would get off my $1800 annual premiums means at best it would 
be 13
  years before I could re-coupe the investment in the GPWS. I could bend 
the
  plane doing something else over that time too.
  Self insuring, investing the premiums in this Bear market, and simply
  waiting out the recovery also means that I could make enough over the 
next
  10 years to replace a couple of aircraft too. The new housing sales 
pending
  starts are already up 30% in this "bad economy". Did not see that on 
the big
  "three" either did you.
  Doc 

  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
  [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, 
Mark G
  CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
  Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:20 PM
  To: yak-list@matronics.com
  Subject: RE: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review

  Doc, in order to have  a WOW switch work, something has to MOVE.  The
  distance it MOVES has to enough to make a SWITCH activate or 
deactivate.
  Think about the 50 .... what moves?  The struts when inflated 
correctly can
  be so stiff as to not move at all on landing.   Yes, the slide lock 
can be
  replaced with an electronic version (solenoid).  Headset noises are no
  problem either.  A Rad/Alt could also be used instead of GPWS, but at 
more
  expense.  

  The simple fact though is that if you have a GPWS, you really do not 
need a
  weight on wheels switch.  Just some control logic.  When the gear is 
down
  and you are below min altititude, the solenoid locks the pin so the 
gear can
  not be raised and audio alerts are disabled.  When the aircraft takes 
off,
  and gets above minimum alt. then the gear lock pin UNLOCKS, the gear 
can
  then be raised, and audio alerts are re-activated. 

  Am I missing something?

  Mark


  ________________________________

  From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Roger Kemp MD
  Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 1:55 PM
  To: yak-list@matronics.com
  Subject: RE: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review


  Someone yesterday said a WOW switch would not work on the YAK? Why? We 
are
  talking about a weight on wheels switch. I disables the up circuit on 
the
  gear handle. Since we have a manual slide lock a simple micro circuit 
could
  be added to the slide lock that when there is weight on the wheels and 
the
  slide lock is open there is gear warning horn or beep beep in the head 
set.
  With enough bucks you could even have a synthetic "Bitching Betty" 
saying
  "check gear, check gear". (or whatever you want to say, like" take 
your
  &*^%$#@ hands of the gear handle!") Yes, when you slide the slide lock 
open
  for TO you would get that warning also. For a few folks I have seen 
TO, that
  may not be such a bad idea either. The radar altimeter could also be
  incorporated for a ground proximity warning also on landing warning of 
gear
  up landing when there is no weight on the wheels.

  Just a thought.

  Doc


  From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
  [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
  Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 12:12 PM
  To: yak-list@matronics.com
  Subject: Re: Re: RED ALERT - Safety Review


  Guys,

  As Elmar and Mark pointed out, it's already been built, it has been
  available for years.  The sticking point is the $1250.00 uninstalled 
cost
  and to a somewhat lesser degree the mentality that "it won't happen to 
me".
  TJ and I have talked about all this before.  But if we are going to to 
drag
  this horse out and beat it some more I would like to restate my 
opinion,
  knowing full well that with it and $1.50 you can get a cup of coffee.  


  At the risk of being drug out of my office and summarily tarred and
  feathered I would (somewhat cautiously suggest) that if we REALLY want 
to be
  proactive on this gear warn issue IMHO the only way to enact it across 
the
  board is a UP charge on our insurance premiums.  This upcharge would 
be
  refunded upon the installation of a acceptable gear warn system.  
Reading
  TJ's curent email I also assume that once it was installed we could 
enjoy a
  reduction of our annual premiums also.  As unpopular as it may be to 
suggest
  yet another increase in our flying expenses, I honestly think this may 
be
  the only way to get everyone's attention and have a real impact on the
  problem of gear up landings. 


  Retracting the gear on the ramp is yet another issue and must be delt 
with
  in another manner.


  Always Yakin,

  Doug

  On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Tim Gagnon <NiftyYak50@fuse.net> 
wrote:



  tjyak50 wrote:
  > We've gone around and around on this subject for years.
  > There is always a way to find a reason why each system isn't 
perfect.
  >
  > So nobody does anything.


  Build it and they will come.


  Read this topic online here:

  http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7999#207999


  --
  Always Yakin,
  Doug Sapp
  Phone 509-826-4610
  Fax 509-826-3644


  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
  http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> 
  http://www.matronics.com/contribution




Other Matronics Email List Services

  • Post A New Message
  •   Yak-List@matronics.com
  • UN/SUBSCRIBE
  •   http://www.matronics.com/subscription
  • List FAQ
  •   http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm
  • Full Archive Search Engine
  •   http://www.matronics.com/search
  • 7-Day List Browsing
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse
  • Browse the List Digests
  •   http://www.matronics.com/digest
  • Live Online Chat!
  •   http://www.matronics.com/chat
  • Archive Downloading
  •   http://www.matronics.com/archives
  • Photo Share
  •   http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
  • Other Email Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
  • Contributions
  •   http://www.matronics.com/contributions

    These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous contributions of its members.

    -- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --