AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ma
October 26, 2013 - November 19, 2013
controlled landing ????
In order to stop, the engine must have been denied either fuel, spark or
mechanical integrity, and for it to restart you must determine and restore
whichever element is missing before the starter will be of any use. (and
you've had to aerodynamically stall the airframe to stop the engine's wind
milling rotation) With all the redundancies and complexities you're
proposing you're unlikely to troubleshoot and solve the problem in the air.
It's excellent to think up and have a solution for the various scenarios,
but at some point you need to follow the KISS principle and not layer one
"what if" on top of another. The likelihood of two or more failures on any
one flight on a properly designed and maintained aircraft are exceeding
unlikely.
By all means design for any single "what if" or failure you can possibly
conceive, but to layer one on top of another on top of another and try to
have a work-around is just going to increase the likelihood of a problem not
decrease it.
Just my unsolicited two cents which you're quite entitled to delete or
ignore (or deposit in the bank if you so desire)
Bob McC
_____
| From: | owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com |
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred
Klein
Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 1:30 PM
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
On Oct 26, 2013, at 10:09 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Can you spin your starter w/ the Master Switch off?
Why would you want access to the
starter with the master switch off?
Under what conditions would you first
have the switch off and then find that
the engine has assumed a condition that
needs encouragement to get running again?
Assuming that the engine is at risk for
doing such a thing, what prevents you
from turning the master switch back on?
Bob...my imagination knows no limits...I'm thinkin the Master's off after
detecting smoke and acrid smells coming from the panel...I'm wanting to
avoid the risk of flippin the Master back on and exacerbating the situation
which caused me to flip it off in the first place.
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
At 01:21 PM 10/26/2013, you wrote:
>On Oct 26, 2013, at 10:56 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>>Even so, unless you've got a clutched PRSU then you're
>> not going to need the starter anyhow. If the engine
>> has lost power due to same event that's causing smoke
>> . . . it's likely that mitigation of risk for
>> that cause is far outside the manipulation of any switches.
>
>Bob...I wouldn't disagree with you.
>
>The origin of this question arose when you noted that my Revision XX
>diagram showed the starter switch fed from the engine (sorry, MP)
>bus rather than the main bus...I still don't see the down side if I
>were to do this.
You're still wrapped around the axles of distraction.
Let's get your list of loads spread out on the
hypothetical architecture I published . . . and sift
the FEMA/operational sands for that configuration.
Then we can begin to study a means by which the EXP-Bus
can morph into the same architecture. It may be that
the starter switch gets powered from someplace different
simply because you've run out of polyfuses on a particular
bus. But downside or upside cannot be discussed until after
roll-call.
I have a finite amount of time to offer to this process . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | EXP 2 Bus workaround |
At 01:36 PM 10/26/2013, you wrote:
>Fred;
>
>Not meaning to be critical or judgmental, but your "properly
>designed" and maintained electrical system has somehow found a way
>to generate "smoke in the cockpit" and you've turned off the master
>switch. So far so good.
>The electrical problem (or fire) has progressed to the point of
>stopping the engine and now you want to be further distracted by
>operating the starter to turn over the failed engine rather than to
>"FLY THE AIRCRAFT" to a controlled landing ????
Gently my friend. Members here on the is are, for the most
part, not aviation professionals. Fewer still have a grasp
on the materials, processes and what-if analysis that goes
into crafting the elegant solution. There was a time when
Z-19 was considered a 'solution' and to be sure, every feature
on it operates in a predicable manner with no surprises.
Fred's willingness to participate in this exercise has
prompted a review of the ideas on which Z-19 stands along
with brain-storming for simpler alternatives based on
better ideas.
Fred has mentioned that a friend of his opined that
many band-aid-on-top-of-band-aid designs on airplanes
to be products of ignorance and poor logic. Yup, those
things happen.
I've watched it my whole career in situations where I
was one of many and with little influence. It doesn't even
take a design by committed/regulation to produce an
accident waiting to happen. Review the materials I posted
on the N811HB accident.
Many individuals who monitor the List have expressed
a reluctance to post lest they become targets of
words that fall outside the realm of entertaining
and persuasive information.
This is a classroom and it's my greatest wish that
people carry knowledge out the door that adds value to
their aviation experience.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I have learned a lot in your classroom. Thanks Bob.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411476#411476
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
At 02:51 PM 10/26/2013, you wrote:
>
>I have learned a lot in your classroom. Thanks Bob.
. . . and you've been an honorable participant for
which I thank YOU.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | EXP 2 Bus workaround |
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 3:38 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus workaround
At 01:36 PM 10/26/2013, you wrote:
Fred;
Not meaning to be critical or judgmental, but your =13properly
designed=14 and
maintained electrical system has somehow found a way to generate
=13smoke in
the cockpit=14 and you=12ve turned off the master switch. So far so
good.
The electrical problem (or fire) has progressed to the point of stopping
the
engine and now you want to be further distracted by operating the
starter to
turn over the failed engine rather than to =13FLY THE AIRCRAFT=14 to a
controlled landing ????
Gently my friend.
Was trying to be. If it came across differently, that was not the
intention.
I apologize.
Members here on the is are, for the most
part, not aviation professionals. Fewer still have a grasp
on the materials, processes and what-if analysis that goes
into crafting the elegant solution. There was a time when
Z-19 was considered a 'solution' and to be sure, every feature
on it operates in a predicable manner with no surprises.
Agree
Fred's willingness to participate in this exercise has
prompted a review of the ideas on which Z-19 stands along
with brain-storming for simpler alternatives based on
better ideas.
And many of his (and others) scenarios point to the areas of potential
improvement.
Fred has mentioned that a friend of his opined that
many band-aid-on-top-of-band-aid designs on airplanes
to be products of ignorance and poor logic. Yup, those
things happen.
Part of the point of my original comment was intended to not lose sight
of
that philosophy.
I've watched it my whole career in situations where I
was one of many and with little influence. It doesn't even
take a design by committed/regulation to produce an
accident waiting to happen. Review the materials I posted
on the N811HB accident.
Exactly.
Many individuals who monitor the List have expressed
a reluctance to post lest they become targets of
words that fall outside the realm of entertaining
and persuasive information.
Myself included, but part of the issue is not that the thoughts are
intended
to be critical or demeaning in any way shape or form but that perhaps
the
command of English usage or even the degree of articulation is lacking
so
that comments are misinterpreted.
This is a classroom and it's my greatest wish that
people carry knowledge out the door that adds value to
their aviation experience.
Absolutely. I've learned immeasurably through lurking here many years,
but
as you've stated I'm often reluctant to share because of the fear of
misstating my thoughts or verbalizing in a way that is open to
misinterpretation. E-mails lack the intonations of a face to face
conversation that sometimes conveys as much meaning as the actual words.
Bob . . .
Once again, if my wording was inappropriate, I apologize. I'll keep
quiet
now.
Bob McC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | EXP 2 Bus workaround |
> Gently my friend.
>Was trying to be. If it came across differently, that was not the
>intention. I apologize.
Understand. Perhaps is was the bold, technicolor font that
offered a poor first blush. That is a down-side for keyboard
communications. We can be deprived of useful communications
data when relying on the written word.
No value to be shared in 'being quiet' . . . the ideas you
proffered were sound.
I'm kind of 'stoked with this thread. There's not been
a new z-figure in years. This is a good thing that
these things get debated. Fred's worries about the
smoke+silence failure prompted a thought on my part
that perhaps Engine A switch ought to power from the
battery with backup being Engine B from the main bus.
This is backwards from how we've used the e-bus but it
does suggest better human factors for powering down
the electrics while leaving the engine up.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
On Oct 26, 2013, at 11:36 AM, Bob McCallum wrote:
> Not meaning to be critical or judgmental, but your =93properly
designed=94 and maintained electrical system has somehow found a way to
generate =93smoke in the cockpit=94 and you=92ve turned off the master
switch. So far so good.
Thanks Bob M....I needed that...sometimes my imagination needs a
comeuppance and a breath of fresh air...Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
On Oct 26, 2013, at 12:25 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> You're still wrapped around the axles of distraction.
> Let's get your list of loads spread out on the
> hypothetical architecture I published . . . and sift
> the FEMA/operational sands for that configuration.
I'm on it Bob...thanks, Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I have drawn a schematic (attached) for Fred using the EXP Bus. It might not be
as good as Bob's designs, but I think it is better than many TC aircraft electrical
systems. Fred definitely does not want to take a soldering iron to the
circuit board. So I could not make some changes that I would like to. If Fred
decides to use my schematic, the only changes that he will have to make will
be pulling fast-on connectors off from switches and moving them around. The
main feature of this schematic is the addition of a master relay that is in
parallel with the battery contactor. Not to worry, this relay can not be energized
while starting the engine. The switch, that is normally the master switch,
must be off in order to start the engine. This also serves as a theft deterrent
because a thief will turn on what he thinks is the master switch, but the
engine will not start. The former avionics master switch now controls the
battery contactor. Since the new master switch also turns on the alternator field,
the former ALT switch can now be used for the second fuel pump. I think
that the EXP Bus has enough switches so that additional switches will not have
to be added to the panel.
Now that I am all done with the schematic and stand back and look at the big
picture, I see that in case the EXP Bus smokes, shutting off the master switches
will also kill the engine. How to fix that? How about an Engine bus fed by
the master relay and also by a diode from the EXP Bus?
Comments are welcome. Just do not be too hard on me. :-)
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411483#411483
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fred_exp_2_bus_200.dwg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fred_exp_2_bus_152.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | EXP 2 Bus workaround - Master Solenoid Failure |
=0A=0AI really enjoy this what-if stuff, so here goes...=0A=0A=0AI'm referr
ing to Bob's drawing sent out yesterday afternoon, Z-08_Full.pdf.- It app
ears that people are touching on this issue but I have not seen it clearly
stated. =0A=0A=0AGiven:=0A1. Stated design goal: To be able to survive any
single component failure w/ little or no drama.=0A=0A2. Electrically-depend
ent engine=0A=0A3. Engine/prop does not windmill, because of some kind of P
SRU =0A4. You are flying w/ Engine A switch On=0A5. Engine B switch Off=0A
=0A=0AScenario:=0A1. You are in flight and Main Batt Contactor fails (coil
burns up, loose wire, whatever)=0A=0A2. Engine shuts down, prop stops=0A=0A
3. Pilot takes several seconds to gather his thoughts=0A4. Pilot turns Engi
ne B switch On - power restored to engine systems except starter=0A=0A5. Pi
lot hits starter button to re-light.- Starter inop because failed Main Ba
tt Contactor is in series w/ Starter Contactor.=0A6. Forced landing=0A=0A7.
Failure to meet design goal - single component failure causes forced landi
=============
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround - Master Solenoid Failure |
At 08:47 PM 10/26/2013, you wrote:
>I really enjoy this what-if stuff, so here goes...
>
>I'm referring to Bob's drawing sent out yesterday afternoon,
>Z-08_Full.pdf. It appears that people are touching on this issue
>but I have not seen it clearly stated.
>
>Given:
>1. Stated design goal: To be able to survive any single component
>failure w/ little or no drama.
>2. Electrically-dependent engine
>3. Engine/prop does not windmill, because of some kind of PSRU
Turns out not true.
>4. You are flying w/ Engine A switch On
>5. Engine B switch Off
>
>Scenario:
>1. You are in flight and Main Batt Contactor fails (coil burns up,
>loose wire, whatever)
Okay . . .
>2. Engine shuts down, prop stops
No, the alternator doesn't quite producing just
because the battery is off line. Further, based on
the exchange with Fred/Bob Mc/Bob N I realized that
the Engine source coming from the battery should
be switched by ENG A. Next iteration will show that.
But it's also possible that the pilot would be unaware
of the loss of contactor until the next flight
when turning battery switch on doesn't light things up.
>3. Pilot takes several seconds to gather his thoughts
>4. Pilot turns Engine B switch On - power restored to engine systems
>except starter
. . . but engine IS windmilling
>5. Pilot hits starter button to re-light. Starter inop because
>failed Main Batt Contactor is in series w/ Starter Contactor.
>6. Forced landing
>7. Failure to meet design goal - single component failure causes
>forced landing :(
>8. Thanks for playing...
inaccurate statement of premises . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround - Master Solenoid Failure |
At 10:15 PM 10/26/2013, you wrote:
>
>
>At 08:47 PM 10/26/2013, you wrote:
>
>>I really enjoy this what-if stuff, so here goes...
>>
>>I'm referring to Bob's drawing sent out yesterday afternoon,
>>Z-08_Full.pdf. It appears that people are touching on this issue
>>but I have not seen it clearly stated.
Actually, there IS a compelling reason to move the
starter button source to the MP-Bus . . .
E-bus and Main bus on the EXP-Bus assembly have
fixed numbers of protected load-taps. Moving the
starter control to the MP-Bus frees up a load-tap
on the EXP-Bus.
But this still doesn't help you use the starter
in-flight with a contator crapped . . . you may be
able to energize the starter contactor but because
the battery contactor is open, there's no FAT wire
power to the contactor.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround - Master Solenoid Failure |
=0AI believe that some of the installations of the Rotax 912 (and probably
other power systems) do not windmill (but the 912 may not be electrically-d
ependent ).=0A=0AHowever, I don't think you can categorically say that ALL
engines will windmill.- In addition some flight conditions may cause a wi
ndmilling prop to stop.- A possible scenario: The pilot becomes task satu
rated on the electrical failure and lets the airspeed bleed down and the pr
op stops.=0A=0A=0ADooh! I forgot about the alternator - BUT - I've never tr
usted an alternator that was not connected to a battery, therefore I would
be reluctant to have that as a fall back.=0A=0A=0AWhat about moving the sta
rter feed to the battery side of the master?=0A=0A=0A-Jeff=0A=0A=0A=0A_____
___________________________=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bo
b(at)aeroelectric.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday
, October 26, 2013 8:15 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP 2 Bus work
around - Master Solenoid Failure =0A =0A=0A--> AeroElectric-List message
posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" =0A=0AA
t 08:47 PM 10/26/2013, you wrote:=0A=0A> I really enjoy this what-if stuff,
so here goes...=0A> =0A> I'm referring to Bob's drawing sent out yesterday
afternoon, Z-08_Full.pdf.- It appears that people are touching on this i
ssue but I have not seen it clearly stated.=0A> =0A> Given:=0A> 1. Stated d
esign goal: To be able to survive any single component failure w/ little or
no drama.=0A> 2. Electrically-dependent engine=0A> 3. Engine/prop does not
windmill, because of some kind of PSRU=0A=0A- Turns out not true.=0A=0A
> 4. You are flying w/ Engine A switch On=0A> 5. Engine B switch Off=0A>
=0A> Scenario:=0A> 1. You are in flight and Main Batt Contactor fails (coil
burns up, loose wire, whatever)=0A=0A- Okay . . .=0A=0A> 2. Engine shut
s down, prop stops=0A=0A=0A- No, the alternator doesn't quite producing
just=0A- because the battery is off line. Further, based on=0A- the e
xchange with Fred/Bob Mc/Bob N I realized that=0A- the Engine source com
ing from the battery should=0A- be switched by ENG A. Next iteration wil
l show that.=0A=0A- But it's also possible that the pilot would be unawa
re=0A- of the loss of contactor until the next flight=0A- when turnin
g battery switch on doesn't light things up.=0A=0A> 3. Pilot takes several
seconds to gather his thoughts=0A> 4. Pilot turns Engine B switch On - powe
r restored to engine systems except starter=0A=0A- . . . but engine IS w
indmilling=0A=0A> 5. Pilot hits starter button to re-light.- Starter inop
because failed Main Batt Contactor is in series w/ Starter Contactor.=0A>
6. Forced landing=0A> 7. Failure to meet design goal - single component fai
lure causes forced landing :(=0A> 8. Thanks for playing...=0A=0A- inaccu
==============
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Battery contactor failure |
At 12:00 AM 10/27/2013, you wrote:
>I believe that some of the installations of the Rotax 912 (and
>probably other power systems) do not windmill (but the 912 may not
>be electrically-dependent ).
Only if the fuel is delivered by engine driven pump
or gravity. The ignition is electronic driven directly
from magnets on the starter ring gear.
>However, I don't think you can categorically say that ALL engines
>will windmill. In addition some flight conditions may cause a
>windmilling prop to stop. A possible scenario: The pilot becomes
>task saturated on the electrical failure and lets the airspeed bleed
>down and the prop stops.
That's s double failure again. Failure tolerant systems
with a plan-b do not saturate pilots.
>Dooh! I forgot about the alternator - BUT - I've never trusted an
>alternator that was not connected to a battery, therefore I would be
>reluctant to have that as a fall back.
Because you know them to be unreliable or simply
don't know. Actually, Cessna and others who opted
for the split rocker switch were probably in violation
of legacy design goals.
Until that time, airplanes flew nicely on either
battery, generator or both. When the alternator
came along, the airframe guys elected to put
alternators on even tho they were not plug-n-play
for the failure tolerance offered by generators.
The Bonanza and Barons continued to offer alternator-
only operations but if I recall correctly, the Liberal
airplanes had split rockers.
PM alternators are easy to get on-line without a
battery and it may well be that belt-driven alternators
on a Lycoming are too. They run very fast. I need to
get some time on B&C's test bench and run some experiments.
>What about moving the starter feed to the battery side of the master?
If you're willing to have an always hot feeder to a
starter contactor . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround - Master Solenoid Failure |
Good Morning All,
I have not followed all of this thread, but agree that not all engines
windmill like our friendly Continentals and Lycomings. I have about twenty
hours flying a Legend Cub powered by the Jabiru engine. It is a nice smooth
running engine, but if it runs out of fuel or the mags are shut off, the prop
stops!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 10/27/2013 3:32:26 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
jluckey(at)pacbell.net writes:
I believe that some of the installations of the Rotax 912 (and probably
other power systems) do not windmill (but the 912 may not be
electrically-dependent ).
However, I don't think you can categorically say that ALL engines will
windmill. In addition some flight conditions may cause a windmilling prop to
stop. A possible scenario: The pilot becomes task saturated on the
electrical failure and lets the airspeed bleed down and the prop stops.
Dooh! I forgot about the alternator - BUT - I've never trusted an
alternator that was not connected to a battery, therefore I would be reluctant
to
have that as a fall back.
What about moving the starter feed to the battery side of the master?
-Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround - Master Solenoid Failure |
Old Bob
Just curious whether you've tried it and whether it was the 4, 6, or 8
cylinder jab? (You probably have tried it or talked to someone who has
if you posted it.)
There were lots of opinions that my geared setup would not windmill but
it most certainly does. More opinions than facts as is often the case on
the internet. For sure there are some known engines/reduction units that
do not windmill.
(break)
I like the concept of minimal connections and components in the truly
essential engine circuits so I like feeding them directly from battery
busses. Engine stoppage occurs far more often than the need to kill
every last electric circuit in a dire emergency. (I'm sure that a
significant percentage of engine out landings/crashes occur with the
battery master still on anyway). I favor feeding "keep it running"
engine circuits directly from battery busses. Sure, route backups
through the master if one wishes but not primary circuits. Then
regardless of windmilling, I see little need to wire such that an engine
can be cranked with the master off or with a failed battery contactor.
That caters to multiple failures and raises other safety concerns IMO.
Ken
On 27/10/2013 5:31 AM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
> Good Morning All,
> I have not followed all of this thread, but agree that not all engines
> windmill like our friendly Continentals and Lycomings. I have about
> twenty hours flying a Legend Cub powered by the Jabiru engine. It is a
> nice smooth running engine, but if it runs out of fuel or the mags are
> shut off, the prop stops!
> Happy Skies,
> Old Bob
> In a message dated 10/27/2013 3:32:26 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> jluckey(at)pacbell.net writes:
>
>
> I believe that some of the installations of the Rotax 912 (and
> probably other power systems) do not windmill (but the 912 may not
> be electrically-dependent ).
>
> However, I don't think you can categorically say that ALL engines
> will windmill. In addition some flight conditions may cause a
> windmilling prop to stop. A possible scenario: The pilot becomes
> task saturated on the electrical failure and lets the airspeed bleed
> down and the prop stops.
>
> Dooh! I forgot about the alternator - BUT - I've never trusted an
> alternator that was not connected to a battery, therefore I would be
> reluctant to have that as a fall back.
>
> What about moving the starter feed to the battery side of the master?
>
> -Jeff
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery contactor failure |
=0A=0AMy comment is italics=0A=0A=0A-Jeff=0A=0A=0A_________________________
_______=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, October 26, 2013
9:32 PM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Battery contactor failure=0A =0A=0A--
bob(at)aeroelectric.com>=0A=0AAt 12:00 AM 10/27/2013, you wrote:=0A=0A> I beli
eve that some of the installations of the Rotax 912 (and probably other pow
er systems) do not windmill (but the 912 may not be electrically-dependent
).=0A=0AOnly if the fuel is delivered by engine driven pump=0Aor gravity. T
he ignition is electronic driven directly=0Afrom magnets on the starter rin
g gear.=0A=0A> However, I don't think you can categorically say that ALL en
gines will windmill.- In addition some flight conditions may cause a wind
milling prop to stop.- A possible scenario: The pilot becomes task satura
ted on the electrical failure and lets the airspeed bleed down and the prop
stops.=0A=0AThat's s double failure again. Failure tolerant systems=0Awith
a plan-b do not saturate pilots.=0A=0ADisagree - There is way too much cas
e history of pilots becoming distracted, over seemingly trivial issues, to
suggest that you can write-off this scenario.=0A=0A> Dooh! I forgot about t
he alternator - BUT - I've never trusted an alternator that was not connect
ed to a battery, therefore I would be reluctant to have that as a fall back
.=0A=0A- Because you know them to be unreliable or simply=0A- don't kno
w. Actually, Cessna and others who opted=0A- for the split rocker switch
were probably in violation=0A- of legacy design goals.=0A=0AOnce upon a t
ime waaay back in the late 70s I had seen a few alternators lose voltage re
gulation when battery became disconnected.- This was in the marine enviro
nment.- Regulators are most certainly better now but those experiences ha
ve stuck with me.=0A=0A- Until that time, airplanes flew nicely on either
=0A- battery, generator or both. When the alternator=0A- came along, th
e airframe guys elected to put=0A- alternators on even tho they were not
plug-n-play=0A- for the failure tolerance offered by generators.=0A=0A-
The Bonanza and Barons continued to offer alternator-=0A- only operation
s but if I recall correctly, the Liberal=0A- airplanes had split rockers.
=0A=0A- PM alternators are easy to get on-line without a=0A- battery an
d it may well be that belt-driven alternators=0A- on a Lycoming are too.
They run very fast. I need to=0A- get some time on B&C's test bench and r
un some experiments.=0A=0A> What about moving the starter feed to the batte
ry side of the master?=0A=0A- If you're willing to have an always hot fee
der to a=0A- starter contactor . . .=0A=0AAre there reasons to not do thi
s?Is that any worse than having an always hot feed to the "main" bus?=0A-
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
> If you're willing to have an always hot feeder to a
> starter contactor . . .
That doesn't sound very safe when you're on he ground. Keys are out, master e
tc off, someone is by the prop and someone else accidentally actuates the st
arter by pushing the starter button or whatever. Even if the engine doesn't s
tart you can still do some damage.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround - Master Solenoid Failure |
Good Morning Ken
You wrote:
"Just curious whether you've tried it and whether it was the 4, 6, or 8
cylinder jab? (You probably have tried it or talked to someone who has
if you posted it.)"
I flew the airplane over twenty hours in less than a week flying off a lot
of the required time for an experimental category airplane. It was at the
factory in Texas, so I did have the factory folks to help with any
difficulties encountered.
The runways were long and the traffic was nil so I had no hesitation to do
things that would cause the engine to quit. I never had to make a "forced"
landing as the starter always worked, but I did shut off the fuel at least
once just to check how well it would restart. Same for shutting off the
ignition. It also quit at low speeds if the idle RPM was set on the low side.
To get a nice short Cub style three point landing, the idle RPM had to be
so low that the engine would quit and the prop would stop turning well
before touchdown. I do not recall the exact airspeed at which the prop would
stop, but it was not much below sixty mph. It has been over five years since I
did that test flying.
That was the only feature of the Jabiru install that I really did not care
for. If it were up to me, I would have used the O-200 Continental or an O-
320 Lycoming.
The high idle made for longer than necessary ground roll out and/or
excessive use of the brakes.
It is a 6 cylinder 3300 Jabiru with the BMW carburetor.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.c
om>=0ATo: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" =0ASent: Sunday, October 27, 2013 6:24 AM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-Li
st: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround=0A =0A=0A=0A-If you're willing to have an al
ways hot feeder to a=0A>-starter contactor . . .=0A=0AThat doesn't sound
very safe when you're on he ground. Keys are out, master etc off, someone i
s by the prop and someone else accidentally actuates the starter by pushing
the starter button or whatever. Even if the engine doesn't start you can s
till do some damage. =0A=0AThat is not the case, with the master off you wi
ll not be able to crank as the coil circuit for starter contactor will not
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
-=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
>That doesn't sound very safe when you're on he ground. Keys are out,
>master etc off, someone is by the prop and someone else accidentally
>actuates the starter by pushing the starter button or whatever. Even
>if the engine doesn't start you can still do some damage.
There are TWO inputs to a starter contactor.
FAT wire power to operate the motor and
small wire power through the starter switch
to energize the contactor coil. One COULD
consider an always hot FAT wire that bypasses
the battery contactor while shutting down
the power source for the starter push-button.
But this is contrary to legacy design goals
for achieving max-dark on an electrical system
when all switches are OFF.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Accident library addition |
I was made aware of this incident involving a LA235 that
appeared to have suffered electrical system difficulties.
http://tinyurl.com/mwo3f4x
The NTSB said 'everything was working but the
battery was dead.' This engine seems to have
run out of fuel because transfer pumps were
deprived of power to bring fuel to a header
tank.
The documents are markedly devoid of a finding for
root cause. The narrative paints and image of an
owner/pilot who hasn't got a clue for the significance
of "anomalies" in system operation. The airplane
had been begging for help for perhaps two months
before the accident. His notion of making the
airplane flightworthy was to install a freshly
charged battery . . . that failed minutes after
takeoff.
His header tank must have been nearly dry at
takeoff which begs the question as to his use
of a checklist for verification if header tank
fuel and functionality of the transfer pumps
were working and the altrrnator was charging
the battery.
As near as we can tell, nothing was broken. No
parts had failed to do their intended task except
that a working alternator failed to charge a battery.
This accident has more to teach about the technical
skills and operational philosophy of the owner/operator
than about the design of an electrical system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
The requirement for a main battery contactor comes from the FAA's requirement to
have the main battery disconnected "by one hand" in the event of a forced landing.
Cutting off the main source of electrical energy should reduce the chance
of ignition one supposes.
NASCAR and various racing groups have the same problem but they usually have decided
that a contactor failure is to be avoided by the elimination of electrical
coil-type contactors, instead choosing rugged mechanical switches like "Flaming
River Battery Switches".
So keep in mind:
1) A contactor won't fail if you don't have one.
2) A contactor by regulations only has to open, not close. Sort of like a parachute.
3) Really big switches can be used instead of small switches and contactors. My
Grandfather's Chevy had a starter footswitch. Still seems like a good idea.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411531#411531
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I figured out the reason for D3 in the EXP2Bus (questioned in a previous post).
When the master switch is open, D3 prevents current from flowing in series through
the master contactor coil and into the EXP2Bus.
I drew a new schematic (pdf attached) using the EXP2Bus and also a separate Engine
Bus. I also have a dwg version if anyone is interested.
The Engine bus is fed from two paths so that any one failure will not cut power
to the engine. The EXP2Bus also has outputs that can supply engine loads.
An endurance bus is not needed because the SkyView and GPS both have internal
backup batteries. The COM radio is powered by either the EXP2Bus or by the ENG
bus through dual diodes inside of the EXP2Bus (CLRNC DEL input).
Comments and suggestions welcome.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411532#411532
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/exp2_and_eng_bus_548.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Bob,
What are your thoughts on having a separate switch for the alternator field versus
using the second half of a double pole master switch?
I know that your designs use a progressive transfer switch with the center position
battery only with the alternator off. But I am thinking about the EXP2Bus
(or any electrical system) that does not have the progressive transfer switch,
just a common DPDT switch. Assuming the pilot has a plan B, for instance
an E-Bus, she could shut off the one DPDT Master-Alt switch in the event of an
alternator failure. Most likely the pilot will want the master off anyway to
conserve the battery.
Or is it better to have a separate Alt switch?
Thanks, Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411535#411535
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
>>> If you're willing to have an always hot feeder to a
>>> starter contactor . . .
>>
>> That doesn't sound very safe when you're on he ground. Keys are out, mast
er etc off, someone is by the prop and someone else accidentally actuates th
e starter by pushing the starter button or whatever. Even if the engine does
n't start you can still do some damage.
>>
>> That is not the case, with the master off you will not be able to crank a
s the coil circuit for starter contactor will not be powered. See dwg.
You're correct, sorry I spoke before i took a look at the actual circuit.
Sacha
Ps. What is the issue with wether the prop windmills or stops? Is it that t
he engine is easier to restart if the prop is windmilling?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
>>> That doesn't sound very safe when you're on he ground. Keys are out, master
etc off, someone is by the prop and someone else accidentally actuates the starter
by pushing the starter button or whatever. Even if the engine doesn't start
you can still do some damage.
>>
>> There are TWO inputs to a starter contactor.
>> FAT wire power to operate the motor and
>> small wire power through the starter switch
>> to energize the contactor coil. One COULD
>> consider an always hot FAT wire that bypasses
>> the battery contactor while shutting down
>> the power source for the starter push-button.
>> But this is contrary to legacy design goals
>> for achieving max-dark on an electrical system
>> when all switches are OFF.
>>
Got it, thanks!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
At 11:53 AM 10/27/2013, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>What are your thoughts on having a separate switch for the
>alternator field versus using the second half of a double pole master switch?
Depends on how well the alternator performs without
a battery. It would be nice to have it run independently
of the battery.
> I know that your designs use a progressive transfer switch with
> the center position battery only with the alternator off. But I am
> thinking about the EXP2Bus (or any electrical system) that does not
> have the progressive transfer switch, just a common DPDT
> switch. Assuming the pilot has a plan B, for instance an E-Bus,
> she could shut off the one DPDT Master-Alt switch in the event of
> an alternator failure. Most likely the pilot will want the master
> off anyway to conserve the battery.
The ideas behind the e-bus was to offer a means by
which everything not needed during en route flight,
i.e. cruising for an hour or more watching the ground
go by. This includes the battery contactor which
draws .8 to 1.0 amps by itself . . . as much as one
or two more radios.
> Or is it better to have a separate Alt switch?
It's nice to turn battery on leaving alternator
off for ground ops. A non-rotating alternator
draws about 3A of field current and gets hot.
When the system is fitted with crowbar ov protection,
then there's a circuit breaker that can be pulled to
disable the alternator for maintenance.
Some of my earlier drawings were dpdt bat/alt switch
+ circuit breaker. But there was such a love affair
going on over the split rocker switch that I decided
to describe a replacement for the same functionality
in a toggle switch.
Whether or not a separate switch is advised is predicated
on alternator performance sans battery.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
If the prop is windmilling then the starter isn't needed for a restart. All
you need is to provide fuel and spark, it already turning.
Bob McC
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2013 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround
If you're willing to have an always hot feeder to a
starter contactor . . .
That doesn't sound very safe when you're on he ground. Keys are out, master
etc off, someone is by the prop and someone else accidentally actuates the
starter by pushing the starter button or whatever. Even if the engine
doesn't start you can still do some damage.
That is not the case, with the master off you will not be able to crank as
the coil circuit for starter contactor will not be powered. See dwg.
You're correct, sorry I spoke before i took a look at the actual circuit.
Sacha
Ps. What is the issue with wether the prop windmills or stops? Is it that
the engine is easier to restart if the prop is windmilling?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: hypothetical question |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Rob,
If you tried to fly from NY to Paris using a magnetic compass in 1927, you'd probably not make it. Lindbergh's primary navigation device was an "Earth Inductor Compass" see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_inductor_compass
I stand by what I said. A magnetic compass is a pretty weak tool for long-distance
navigation. On aircraft, the pilot steers compass courses, but aerial navigation
depends on making corrections to account for all sorts of disturbances
from the straight line course.
As you approach the magnetic poles, the magnetic compass becomes worthless, when
you cross the equator, the compensators have to be flipped. Then there are the
dozen compass errors they teach in ground school.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411576#411576
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Accident library addition |
| From: | "racerjerry" <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
Simplicity does have its virtues, especially when things start going to hell.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411581#411581
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Allen <billallensworld(at)gmail.com> |
Erics suggestion that a mechanical master switch be considered over a
"solenoid" contactor seems to have merit.
On small OBAM aircraft one is always looking for ways to introduce a weight
saving synergy.
I am reworking the panel on my LongEz with a Dynon Skyview and can see
that my current consumption will reduce using modern avionics.
This then opens up the possibility of removing the 40amp alternator from
the aft of my Lycoming (worst place for weight on a pusher) and replacing
it with a 20amp unit in place of one magneto, and with a (B&C SD20) 20amp
unit, one scrutinises all consumers to reduce appetites where possible.
While populating my electrical load schedule, I was taken aback to see that
the master contactor takes a constant 2amps. That would make it the most
hungry consumer of watts in my aircraft, 10% of my alternators output going
to keep the master latched.
Thus I'm struggling to see why I should not use a mechanical master along
the lines of that suggested by Eric; (
http://www.flamingriver.com/index.php/products/c0015/s0001/FR1013) particularly
as I'm at the "clean sheet" stage. And I've had an electrical master fail
on a certified aircraft (PA30).
Am I missing something here?
Bill Allen
LongEz160
N99BA
On 27 October 2013 17:52, Eric M. Jones wrote:
> emjones(at)charter.net>
>
> The requirement for a main battery contactor comes from the FAA's
> requirement to have the main battery disconnected "by one hand" in the
> event of a forced landing. Cutting off the main source of electrical energy
> should reduce the chance of ignition one supposes.
>
> NASCAR and various racing groups have the same problem but they usually
> have decided that a contactor failure is to be avoided by the elimination
> of electrical coil-type contactors, instead choosing rugged mechanical
> switches like "Flaming River Battery Switches".
>
> So keep in mind:
>
> 1) A contactor won't fail if you don't have one.
> 2) A contactor by regulations only has to open, not close. Sort of like a
> parachute.
> 3) Really big switches can be used instead of small switches and
> contactors. My Grandfather's Chevy had a starter footswitch. Still seems
> like a good idea.
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411531#411531
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Bill,
Be aware that the main contactor is best replaced by a big switch in the same location.
That is, a remote actuator (like a long actuator rod) is best. Flaming
River sells these, but you can make one. Since flaps and ailerons and rudders,
etc. use remote mechanical actuators, most builders can do something like this.
Remember you only have to have the ability to turn OFF the battery.
Harbor Freight sells the big switches too. Roll your own actuator.
There comes a time in designing a big airplane when contactors are necessary, but
small single engine homebuilts probably don't need them.
Since FAA regulations are to turn OFF the battery in an emergency, one might add
some contacts to turn ON the ELT, turn off the fuel, etc. when one emergency
T-handle is pulled.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411630#411630
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Charging the Aux Battery |
At 11:41 AM 10/1/2013, you wrote:
>
>
>Bob
>
>Thank you for the dissertation about the theme I had proposed.
>I confess that I still didn't read it thoroughly, so I will have to digest
>it conveniently.
>
>Meanwhile, I can confirm that my question was not academic, I am building an
>RV-10 and did consider the Dual battery, One main Alternator - one Aux
>alternator system.
>
>So far, I am considering a variation of the Z-14 architecture, but still
>didn't reach the "end of the line" in what regards the final schematic, so
>would appreciate all suggestions.
Okay, start with Z-14 and tell us what you would
do differently and why that seems to be a good idea.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
This then opens up the possibility of removing the 40amp alternator
from the aft of my Lycoming (worst place for weight on a pusher) and
replacing it with a 20amp unit in place of one magneto, and with a
(B&C SD20) 20amp unit, one scrutinises all consumers to reduce
appetites where possible.
The B&C 20A machine drives from a vacuum
pump pad. I don't think you want to replace
any magnetos with other than an electronic
ignition.
While populating my electrical load schedule, I was taken aback to
see that the master contactor takes a constant 2amps. That would make
it the most hungry consumer of watts in my aircraft, 10% of my
alternators output going to keep the master latched.
Actually, it's more like 1 amp cold and drops to about
.6 amps warm for a Cole-Hersee contactor. See
http://tinyurl.com/k6bwdqo
http://tinyurl.com/mpcgp3t
Thus I'm struggling to see why I should not use a mechanical master
along the lines of that suggested by Eric;
(http://www.flamingriver.com/index.php/products/c0015/s0001/FR1013)
particularly as I'm at the "clean sheet" stage. And I've had an
electrical master fail on a certified aircraft (PA30).
That works too. The Piper Pacer and Tri-Pacers
were originally fitted with manual battery switches
and starter push-buttons.
How did the contactor fail . . . and how did
you become aware of the failiure? If your
system is architectured for failure tolerance,
a contactor failure is not an emergency; only
a maintenance event.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Allen <billallensworld(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the reply.
1. Yes, well caught, the B&C SD20 fits on the vacpad not the mag location.
My mis-type. - trying to colour in one point (the draw of the master relay)
and not paying attention to the details. I'm using a Pmag-E and an
LSEas ignition systems.
2. Your tests showing the real draw on the master solenoid are very
revealing, presuming that the master solenoid I have from Aircraft Spruce (
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php?clickkey=10293
) is
a Cole-Hersee - I'm unfamiliar with the term but gather from googling that
they are to solenoids what Hoover is to vacuum cleaners.
However, 0.8amps is still almost the equivalent of a Garmin 430 (0.2a stby),
Funkwerk Com (0.1a stby),DynonXPDR-262 (0.15a stby) and AeroLED
Navlights(0.4a). All are "brochure figures" unless I've misread them.
3. The failure I experienced on my PA30 was on the ground. I found a
totally dead system with a good battery, and traced it quickly to the
master relay not activating. A new unit fixed it, and upon stripping the
old one, I found moisture penetration of the internals to be the cause.
Cleaning it up got it working again, but not to the point that I wanted to
risk the disruption it could cause if it failed again.
Had it failed in flight I would not have lost engine power, but would have
lost all ships power, unless there is an e-bus on a 1966 PA30 that I'm not
aware of, which is possible.
If you'd like me to mail it to you for dissection, I can do that.
4. What I've learnt from this (ie, point 2 above) is to actually measure
the current used by each of the consumers one plans to use. If the
acceptance of 2amps for the master relay (but actually 0.8amps) is read
across in this way for all other units, it's easily possible to end up with
an alternator, wires, switches, fuses etc all way oversize and overweight.
regards,
Bill Allen
On 29 October 2013 11:18, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com**>
>
>
> This then opens up the possibility of removing the 40amp alternator from
> the aft of my Lycoming (worst place for weight on a pusher) and replacing
> it with a 20amp unit in place of one magneto, and with a (B&C SD20) 20amp
> unit, one scrutinises all consumers to reduce appetites where possible.
>
> The B&C 20A machine drives from a vacuum
> pump pad. I don't think you want to replace
> any magnetos with other than an electronic
> ignition.
>
>
> While populating my electrical load schedule, I was taken aback to see
> that the master contactor takes a constant 2amps. That would make it the
> most hungry consumer of watts in my aircraft, 10% of my alternators output
> going to keep the master latched.
>
> Actually, it's more like 1 amp cold and drops to about
> .6 amps warm for a Cole-Hersee contactor. See
>
> http://tinyurl.com/k6bwdqo
> http://tinyurl.com/mpcgp3t
>
>
> Thus I'm struggling to see why I should not use a mechanical master along
> the lines of that suggested by Eric; (http://www.flamingriver.com/**
> index.php/products/c0015/**s0001/FR1013<http://www.flamingriver.com/index.php/products/c0015/s0001/FR1013>)
> particularly as I'm at the "clean sheet" stage. And I've had an electrical
> master fail on a certified aircraft (PA30).
>
> That works too. The Piper Pacer and Tri-Pacers
> were originally fitted with manual battery switches
> and starter push-buttons.
>
> How did the contactor fail . . . and how did
> you become aware of the failiure? If your
> system is architectured for failure tolerance,
> a contactor failure is not an emergency; only
> a maintenance event.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com> |
| Subject: | King KT78 Manual |
Does anyone have a copy of the King KT78 manual and or pinouts?
I tried a google search and came across a link to one at www.gobookee.org
but they want a 'credit card verification' to download a 'free' document and
I'm suspicious. J
Alternatively, does anyone have any experience with gobookee?
Johannesburg Jay
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Transponder Interference with Icom A-22 Comm Radio |
| From: | "djtoddb" <djtoddb(at)yahoo.com> |
I just installed a Sandia Transponder with an Icom A-22 handheld radio hard wired
into the electrical system. On the first flight, ATC had a difficult time
understanding me and I heard "clicks" in then headset while receiving. Not knowing
if it was RF interference from the transponder OR feedback from the aircraft
12 volt power system, I removed the hard wire power from the radio and used
the battery pack... Everything worked great. I even placed the VHF receiver
within a inch of the transponder antenna while it was being interrogated and
it still worked fine.
Seems I am having some strange pulses running through the 12V system while the
transponder is ON because it is eliminated when I remove acft power from it and
use the battery pack.
QUESTION - Is there something I can do or install that will isolate electrically
the Comm Radio from getting this feedback from the transponder OR is there something
I can add to the Transponder Power feed?
--------
Titan Tornado II with Jab 3300
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411680#411680
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cardinalnsb <cardinalnsb(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Harbor Freight sells the big switches too |
"Harbor Freight sells the big switches too. Roll your own actuator."
The one I bought at HF was of poor quality and I would not use it on a motorhome.
Skip Simpson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jan <jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK> |
What about using a Kilovac EV200 with a circuit saver ? Any experience with
them ?? They pull in under high A.. then the circuit saver lowers the
current to hold the relay closed... (but I am told the circuit saver is
'noisy' ... i.e. lots of EMC ...)
Anyone have any comments ??
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Allen
Sent: 29 October 2013 13:28
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactors
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the reply.
1. Yes, well caught, the B&C SD20 fits on the vacpad not the mag location.
My mis-type. - trying to colour in one point (the draw of the master relay)
and not paying attention to the details. I'm using a Pmag-E and an LSE as
ignition systems.
2. Your tests showing the real draw on the master solenoid are very
revealing, presuming that the master solenoid I have from Aircraft Spruce
(http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php?clickkey=1029
3
<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php?clickkey=1029
3> ) is a Cole-Hersee - I'm unfamiliar with the term but gather from
googling that they are to solenoids what Hoover is to vacuum cleaners.
However, 0.8amps is still almost the equivalent of a Garmin 430 (0.2a stby),
Funkwerk Com (0.1a stby),DynonXPDR-262 (0.15a stby) and AeroLED Navlights
(0.4a). All are "brochure figures" unless I've misread them.
3. The failure I experienced on my PA30 was on the ground. I found a totally
dead system with a good battery, and traced it quickly to the master relay
not activating. A new unit fixed it, and upon stripping the old one, I found
moisture penetration of the internals to be the cause. Cleaning it up got it
working again, but not to the point that I wanted to risk the disruption it
could cause if it failed again.
Had it failed in flight I would not have lost engine power, but would have
lost all ships power, unless there is an e-bus on a 1966 PA30 that I'm not
aware of, which is possible.
If you'd like me to mail it to you for dissection, I can do that.
4. What I've learnt from this (ie, point 2 above) is to actually measure the
current used by each of the consumers one plans to use. If the acceptance of
2amps for the master relay (but actually 0.8amps) is read across in this way
for all other units, it's easily possible to end up with an alternator,
wires, switches, fuses etc all way oversize and overweight.
regards,
Bill Allen
On 29 October 2013 11:18, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
>
wrote:
>
This then opens up the possibility of removing the 40amp alternator from
the aft of my Lycoming (worst place for weight on a pusher) and replacing it
with a 20amp unit in place of one magneto, and with a (B&C SD20) 20amp unit,
one scrutinises all consumers to reduce appetites where possible.
The B&C 20A machine drives from a vacuum
pump pad. I don't think you want to replace
any magnetos with other than an electronic
ignition.
While populating my electrical load schedule, I was taken aback to see that
the master contactor takes a constant 2amps. That would make it the most
hungry consumer of watts in my aircraft, 10% of my alternators output going
to keep the master latched.
Actually, it's more like 1 amp cold and drops to about
.6 amps warm for a Cole-Hersee contactor. See
http://tinyurl.com/k6bwdqo
http://tinyurl.com/mpcgp3t
Thus I'm struggling to see why I should not use a mechanical master along
the lines of that suggested by Eric;
(http://www.flamingriver.com/index.php/products/c0015/s0001/FR1013
<http://www.flamingriver.com/index.php/products/c0015/s0001/FR1013> )
particularly as I'm at the "clean sheet" stage. And I've had an electrical
master fail on a certified aircraft (PA30).
That works too. The Piper Pacer and Tri-Pacers
were originally fitted with manual battery switches
and starter push-buttons.
How did the contactor fail . . . and how did
you become aware of the failiure? If your
system is architectured for failure tolerance,
a contactor failure is not an emergency; only
a maintenance event.
Bob . . .
===================================
-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
===================================
http://forums.matronics.com
===================================
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
What about using a Kilovac EV200
with a
circuit saver ? Any experience with them ?? They pull in under
high A.. then
the circuit saver lowers the current to hold the relay closed…
(but I am
told the circuit saver is ‘noisy’ … i.e. lots of EMC
…)
Anyone have any comments
??
From:
owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Allen
Sent: 29 October 2013
13:28
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re:
AeroElectric-List:
Contactors
Hi Bob,
1. Yes, well caught, the B&C SD20 fits on the vacpad not
the mag
location. My mis-type. - trying to colour in one point (the draw of the
master
relay) and not paying attention to the details. I'm using
a Pmag-E
and an LSE as ignition systems.
2. Your tests showing the real draw on the master solenoid are
very
revealing, presuming that the master solenoid I have from Aircraft
Spruce (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterre
lay.php?clickkey=10293 ) is
a Cole-Hersee - I'm unfamiliar with the term but gather from googling
that they
are to solenoids what Hoover
is to vacuum cleaners.
However, 0.8amps is still almost the equivalent of a Garmin 430
(0.2a
stby), Funkwerk Com (0.1a stby),DynonXPDR-262 (0.15a stby) and AeroLED
Navlights (0.4a). All are "brochure figures" unless I've
misread
them.
3. The failure I experienced on my PA30 was on the ground. I
found a
totally dead system with a good battery, and traced it quickly to the
master
relay not activating. A new unit fixed it, and upon stripping the old
one, I
found moisture penetration of the internals to be the cause. Cleaning
it up got
it working again, but not to the point that I wanted to risk the
disruption it
could cause if it failed again.
Had it failed in flight I would not have lost engine power, but
would
have lost all ships power, unless there is an e-bus on a 1966 PA30 that
I'm not
aware of, which is possible.
If you'd like me to mail it to you for dissection, I can do
that.
4. What I've learnt from this (ie, point 2 above) is to
actually
measure the current used by each of the consumers one plans to use. If
the
acceptance of 2amps for the master relay (but actually 0.8amps) is read
across
in this way for all other units, it's easily possible to end up with an
alternator, wires, switches, fuses etc all way oversize and
overweight.
On 29 October 2013 11:18, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L.
Nuckolls,
III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
This then opens up the possibility of removing the 40amp
alternator from
the aft of my Lycoming (worst place for weight on a pusher) and
replacing it
with a 20amp unit in place of one magneto, and with a (B&C SD20)
20amp
unit, one scrutinises all consumers to reduce appetites where
possible.
The B&C 20A machine drives from a vacuum
pump pad. I don't think you want to replace
any magnetos with other than an electronic
ignition.
While populating my electrical load schedule, I was taken aback to see
that the
master contactor takes a constant 2amps. That would make it the most
hungry
consumer of watts in my aircraft, 10% of my alternators output going to
keep
the master latched.
Actually, it's more like 1 amp cold and drops to
about
.6 amps warm for a Cole-Hersee contactor. See
http://tinyurl.com/k6bwdqo>
http://tinyurl.com/mpcgp3t>
Thus I'm struggling to see why I should not use a mechanical master
along the
lines of that suggested by Eric; (http://www.flamingriver.com/index.php/products/c0015/s
0001/FR1013)
particularly as I'm at the "clean sheet" stage. And I've had
an
electrical master fail on a certified aircraft
(PA30).
That works too. The Piper Pacer and Tri-Pacers
were originally fitted with manual battery switches
and starter push-buttons.
How did the contactor fail . . . and how did
you become aware of the failiure? If your
system is architectured for failure tolerance,
a contactor failure is not an emergency; only
a maintenance event.
Bob . . .
http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/
contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerald Folkerts" <jfolkerts1(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | King KT78 Manual |
Jay,
I have one for KT78A. If you want, send me your email address.
Best,
Jerry Folkerts
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay Hyde
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:55 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: King KT78 Manual
Does anyone have a copy of the King KT78 manual and or pinouts?
I tried a google search and came across a link to one at www.gobookee.org
but they want a 'credit card verification' to download a 'free' document and
I'm suspicious. J
Alternatively, does anyone have any experience with gobookee?
Johannesburg Jay
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: King KT78 Manual |
At 10:55 AM 10/29/2013, you wrote:
>Does anyone have a copy of the King KT78 manual and or pinouts?
Check here http://tinyurl.com/kcwmt6f
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 08:28 AM 10/29/2013, you wrote:
>Hi Bob,
>
>Thanks for the reply.
>
>1. Yes, well caught, the B&C SD20 fits on the vacpad not the mag
>location. My mis-type. - trying to colour in one point (the draw of
>the master relay) and not paying attention to the details. I'm
>using a Pmag-E and an LSE as ignition systems.
Okay, you've got a 15a current budget . . . 5A of
rated output should be 'walled off' for battery
recharging in flight . . . and remember, the SD-20
doesn't give you any useful output until you're airborne.
>2. Your tests showing the real draw on the master solenoid are very
>revealing, presuming that the master solenoid I have from Aircraft
>Spruce
>(<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php?clickkey=10293>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php?clickkey=10293
>) is a Cole-Hersee - I'm unfamiliar with the term but gather from
>googling that they are to solenoids what Hoover is to vacuum cleaners.
>However, 0.8amps is still almost the equivalent of a Garmin 430
>(0.2a stby), Funkwerk Com (0.1a stby),DynonXPDR-262 (0.15a stby) and
>AeroLED Navlights (0.4a). All are "brochure figures" unless I've misread them.
So do all the math. Get this form
http://tinyurl.com/7jqypwj
and do an inventory of every electrical
load . . . including the battery contactor.
Don't fuss with bus-decisions yet, just
get a read on total loads under various
flight conditions.
>
>3. The failure I experienced on my PA30 was on the ground. I found a
>totally dead system with a good battery, and traced it quickly to
>the master relay not activating. A new unit fixed it, and upon
>stripping the old one, I found moisture penetration of the internals
>to be the cause. Cleaning it up got it working again, but not to the
>point that I wanted to risk the disruption it could cause if it failed again.to
Surely your anticipated system can function
with the battery contactor open . . . whether
it opens from failure or the fact that you
shut it off, getting to an airport of intended
destination shouldn't be a foreboding task.
>Had it failed in flight I would not have lost engine power, but
>would have lost all ships power, unless there is an e-bus on a 1966
>PA30 that I'm not aware of, which is possible.
No, they don't have that feature . . . but if
it were my airplane . . . it would.
Do you have a flight-bag back-up?
http://tinyurl.com/lg3n4gh
>If you'd like me to mail it to you for dissection, I can do that.
Not useful at this stage. The major point is that
it failed on the ground. I won't say that failures
in fight never happen . . . but they are exceedingly
rare. If one has failed in flight, I'd give pretty
good odds that the pilot was 'warned' . . . probably
conducted more than one flight where the contactor
had to be 'jiggered' in some way before the panel lit
up . . . and he doesn't even know what an e-bus is.
I'd also give pretty good odds that the contactor
you replaced had been in service for a considerable
period of time.
I'm supposed to get a networked computer at Cessna
on Monday. I'd should be able to search the archives
for history on part numbers used for both production
and spares on the single engine line going back a
very long way.
>4. What I've learnt from this (ie, point 2 above) is to actually
>measure the current used by each of the consumers one plans to use.
That's never wrong. When you get all the numbers, give
us a list of your findings.
> If the acceptance of 2amps for the master relay (but actually
> 0.8amps) is read across in this way for all other units, it's
> easily possible to end up with an alternator, wires, switches,
> fuses etc all way oversize and overweight.
That's not typical. I've never seen a value greater
than 1.0A assigned to battery contactors on single
engine airplanes. Further, the numbers from installation
manuals on items used in TC aircraft should be golden.
Updating load analysis and weight and balance for
any changes to an airplane is pretty much a given for
which the manufacturer is obligated to support with
good numbers.
Add 'em all up and see if you've busted your 15A
bubble. Running loads only, intermittent loads like
flap motors, trim motors, transmitters, etc are
not significant energy consumers.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 04:44 PM 10/29/2013, you wrote:
>What about using a Kilovac EV200 with a circuit
>saver ? Any experience with them ?? They pull
>in under high A.. then the circuit saver lowers
>the current to hold the relay closed=85 (but I am
>told the circuit saver is =91noisy=92 =85 i.e. lots of EMC =85)
>
>Anyone have any comments ??
A fine contactor with a price to match . . .
and yes . . . pwm management of holding
current is not noise free. Most users
have not found the noise to be a problem.
I think I've got an EV200 in the skunk-werks
box of goodies somewhere . . . if I can put
my hands on it, I'll see if I can get the
EMC lab gurus to do a quick conducted survey
on it.
We'll have a contactor-cooler product available
pretty soon. The 9024 4-function module will
include that capability. I'll it checked for
conducted emissions too. The goal would be
to offer a low cost alternative to lowering
operating current (and temperature rise) on
the generic contactors. Reduced operating
temp should improve on what has already been
a good service life.
But aside from weight and cost, the EV200 is
a fine opportunity for increased service life
assuming you find $value$ in the exchange.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Trusting a chargers reputation, what an idiot! |
| From: | rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us |
Hi group
I'm an idiot. I purchased an Odyssey PC545 a while back and listened
to the distributors rhetoric, blah, blah blah I best buy one of his
magical chargers custom suited for an odyssey battery. Wasn't very
much so I bought one. My battery is aft located on my Europa Monowheel,
so a bit of contortion needed to get to it. No problem. Very early on the
strain relief for the insulation at the charger broke in half, so I was
just measuring the charger output at the break (which is easily located
forward). Today we were working on the flap control and were crawling
around in the back of the aeroplane and decided we should check the
voltage at the battery with the charger connected. The charger was
indicating float (green) and at the forward break in the insulation at
13.54 volts. When we tested at the battery, it was only 12.75 volts?
Closer inspection revealed really poor solder connection to the battery
clamps. There is a plating on the clamps, and the solder never stuck real
well. EZ fix, scratch, mild activated flux and solder. Just a note, best
check charge voltage right at the battery, don't trust a green LED
saying all is well.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Trusting a chargers reputation, what an idiot! |
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
Ron I am busy with a new build and have a similar problem...the battery
voltage at the battery is 13.4 and the MGL Efis shows supply voltage as
12.9. I have checked all feeds and connectors, but cannot isolate the
voltage drop....
Best...
Bob Verwey
On 30 October 2013 06:29, wrote:
> Hi group
>
> I'm an idiot. I purchased an Odyssey PC545 a while back and listened to
> the distributors rhetoric, blah, blah blah I best buy one of his magical
> chargers custom suited for an odyssey battery. Wasn't very much so I bought
> one. My battery is aft located on my Europa Monowheel, so a bit of
> contortion needed to get to it. No problem. Very early on the strain relief
> for the insulation at the charger broke in half, so I was just measuring
> the charger output at the break (which is easily located forward). Today we
> were working on the flap control and were crawling around in the back of
> the aeroplane and decided we should check the voltage at the battery with
> the charger connected. The charger was indicating float (green) and at the
> forward break in the insulation at 13.54 volts. When we tested at the
> battery, it was only 12.75 volts? Closer inspection revealed really poor
> solder connection to the battery clamps. There is a plating on the clamps,
> and the solder never stuck real well. EZ fix, scratch, mild activated flux
> and solder. Just a note, best check charge voltage right at the battery,
> don't trust a green LED saying all is well.
>
> Ron Parigoris
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com> |
| Subject: | King KT78 Manual |
Thanks Bob- I received a copy from Stein; so helpful, thanks Stein!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: 30 October 2013 01:56 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: King KT78 Manual
-->
At 10:55 AM 10/29/2013, you wrote:
>Does anyone have a copy of the King KT78 manual and or pinouts?
Check here http://tinyurl.com/kcwmt6f
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com> |
| Subject: | King KT78 Manual |
Thanks- I was already sent a copy. As we have all mentioned, "ain't this
list great!"
J
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerald
Folkerts
Sent: 30 October 2013 01:11 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: King KT78 Manual
Jay,
I have one for KT78A. If you want, send me your email address.
Best,
Jerry Folkerts
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay Hyde
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:55 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: King KT78 Manual
Does anyone have a copy of the King KT78 manual and or pinouts?
I tried a google search and came across a link to one at www.gobookee.org
but they want a 'credit card verification' to download a 'free' document and
I'm suspicious. J
Alternatively, does anyone have any experience with gobookee?
Johannesburg Jay
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trusting a chargers reputation, what an idiot! |
At 01:38 AM 10/30/2013, you wrote:
>Ron I am busy with a new build and have a similar problem...the
>battery voltage at the battery is 13.4 and the MGL Efis shows supply
>voltage as 12.9. I have checked all feeds and connectors, but cannot
>isolate the voltage drop....
Are you sure the two instruments agree with each
other? Measure some other common point of interest
between the EFIS and your meter . . . see if they
EVER agree.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com> |
| Subject: | Trusting a chargers reputation, what an idiot! |
Hey there Bob-V, I agree with Bob-N :-)
Even though I think that the MGL instrument is pretty good there may be a
calibration issue; I would check both points with an independent meter and
see what you get.
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: 30 October 2013 01:23 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Trusting a chargers reputation, what an
idiot!
-->
At 01:38 AM 10/30/2013, you wrote:
>Ron I am busy with a new build and have a similar problem...the battery
>voltage at the battery is 13.4 and the MGL Efis shows supply voltage as
>12.9. I have checked all feeds and connectors, but cannot isolate the
>voltage drop....
Are you sure the two instruments agree with each
other? Measure some other common point of interest
between the EFIS and your meter . . . see if they
EVER agree.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: King KT78 Manual |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
> but they want a 'credit card verification' to download a 'free' document
Do a search of "gobookee scam".
After reading about the experiences of others, you will never give them your credit
card number.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411750#411750
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: King KT78 Manual |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
> but they want a 'credit card verification' to download a 'free' document
Do a search of "gobookee scam".
After reading about the experiences of others, you will never give them your credit
card number.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411751#411751
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Transponder Interference with Icom A-22 Comm Radio |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Maybe something like this ebay item # 131025623616 will help.
I learned that sellers in China sometimes exaggerate the capabilities of their
products. So divide the rated output of the DC to DC Converter by 2. Also note
that most of these devices have a non-isolated output. I interpret that to
mean that the negative input and negative output are connected together, if that
is of any concern to you. I think that converters without a heat-sink can
only handle up to one amp.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411752#411752
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder Interference with Icom A-22 Comm |
Radio
At 11:28 AM 10/29/2013, you wrote:
I just installed a Sandia Transponder with an Icom A-22 handheld
radio hard wired into the electrical system. On the first flight,
ATC had a difficult time understanding me and I heard "clicks" in
then headset while receiving. Not knowing if it was RF interference
from the transponder OR feedback from the aircraft 12 volt power
system, I removed the hard wire power from the radio and used the
battery pack... Everything worked great.
Radios of this variety are never qualified to DO160
recommendations for immunity to noise common to
the vehicular dc bus. The exact nature of
ATC's complaint would be good. The 'clicking'
you describe is not particularly interesting.
Further, the noise heard on your transmitted
signal may be very different than anything
you hear on receive.
Is this test with engine running or not? Does
it go away with the alternator off? Could you
record a sample of the noise received by
your listeners. Got access to a pocket recorder
and second transceiver to run an experiment.
Have somebody talk to you on the compromised
radio so you can offer an interpretation of
what you hear.
I even placed the VHF receiver within a inch of the transponder
antenna while it was being interrogated and it still worked fine.
Since the complaint was against your transmitted
signal, the experiment may not have any
significance.
Seems I am having some strange pulses running through the 12V system
while the transponder is ON because it is eliminated when I remove
acft power from it and use the battery pack.
Check your transmitted signal with the
radio hookd to the airplane with the
transponder on/off, alternator on/of
and any other electro-whizzies.
QUESTION - Is there something I can do or install that will isolate
electrically the Comm Radio from getting this feedback
from the transponder OR is thernee something I can add to the
Transponder Power feed?
Not enough data for a specific suggestion.
A simple noise filter may do the job but
it would help to know exactly where the
noise is coming from.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator without a Battery |
| From: | Thomas E Blejwas <tomblejwas(at)yahoo.com> |
Bob,
It has taken days for me to respond because I couldn't get the website to respond
to my enquiries and, consequently, I was unable to open your new drawing.
Today I could! Thanks for your response.
You state that you wouldn't shut down a battery unless there is smoke in the cockpit
and, in which case you would shut down the alternator as well. If a battery
is shorting and drawing more and more current from the alternator, why wouldn't
you disconnect it or do you consider this too unlikely to design against?
You ask why two batteries? I'm reconsidering. If the battery can be disconnected
and the engine continues to run on only the alternator, then one battery probably
meets my design goals. Thanks for the question.
As you suggested, I've looked at your new drawing, but I don't think it meets all
my design goals. A shorted battery can't be disconnected. I'll continue to
study it w.r.t my other design goals. Thanks.
Tom
Sent from my iPad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jan <jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK> |
Hi Bob,
It will be very interesting to hear what you find out about EMC if you get
the chance to do it ...
I will be very interesting to hear more about your contactor cooler circuit
/ module when you have it available ... will be ideal for a generic
contactor
All the best
Jan
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: 30 October 2013 00:30
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Contactors
At 04:44 PM 10/29/2013, you wrote:
What about using a Kilovac EV200 with a circuit saver ? Any experience with
them ?? They pull in under high A.. then the circuit saver lowers the
current to hold the relay closed... (but I am told the circuit saver is
'noisy' ... i.e. lots of EMC ...)
Anyone have any comments ??
A fine contactor with a price to match . . .
and yes . . . pwm management of holding
current is not noise free. Most users
have not found the noise to be a problem.
I think I've got an EV200 in the skunk-werks
box of goodies somewhere . . . if I can put
my hands on it, I'll see if I can get the
EMC lab gurus to do a quick conducted survey
on it.
We'll have a contactor-cooler product available
pretty soon. The 9024 4-function module will
include that capability. I'll it checked for
conducted emissions too. The goal would be
to offer a low cost alternative to lowering
operating current (and temperature rise) on
the generic contactors. Reduced operating
temp should improve on what has already been
a good service life.
But aside from weight and cost, the EV200 is
a fine opportunity for increased service life
assuming you find $value$ in the exchange.
Bob . . .
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
Hi Bob,
It will be very interesting to
hear what
you find out about EMC if you get the chance to do it
…
I will be very interesting to hear
more
about your contactor cooler circuit / module when you have it available
…
will be ideal for a generic contactor
All the
best
Jan
From:
owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls,
III
Sent: 30 October 2013
00:30
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE:
AeroElectric-List:
Contactors
At 04:44 PM 10/29/2013, you wrote:
What about using a Kilovac EV200
with a
circuit saver ? Any experience with them ?? They pull in under
high A..
then the circuit saver lowers the current to hold the relay
closed… (but
I am told the circuit saver is ‘noisy’ … i.e. lots of
EMC
…)
Anyone have any comments ??
A fine contactor with a price to match . . .
and yes . . . pwm management of holding
current is not noise free. Most users
have not found the noise to be a problem.
I think I've got an EV200 in the skunk-werks
box of goodies somewhere . . . if I can put
my hands on it, I'll see if I can get the
EMC lab gurus to do a quick conducted survey
on it.
We'll have a contactor-cooler product available
pretty soon. The 9024 4-function module will
include that capability. I'll it checked for
conducted emissions too. The goal would be
to offer a low cost alternative to lowering
operating current (and temperature rise) on
the generic contactors. Reduced operating
temp should improve on what has already been
a good service life.
But aside from weight and cost, the EV200 is
a fine opportunity for increased service life
assuming you find $value$ in the exchange.
Bob . . .
http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/
contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Allen <billallensworld(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Bob,
You wrote;
<>
Noted.
<< So do all the math. Get this form http://tinyurl.com/7jqypwj and do an
inventory of every electrical load . . . including the battery contactor.Don't
fuss with bus-decisions yet, just get a read on total loads under
various flight
conditions.>>
Got the form. Willdo.
<>
Presumably that's what the e-bus is there for in your designs, if not the
architecture of Mr.Piper in 1966, when my PA30 was built.
<< Do you have a flight-bag back-up? http://tinyurl.com/lg3n4gh >> Yes I
do.
<< I'd also give pretty good odds that the contactor you replaced had been
in service for a considerable period of time >>
I have no reason to doubt it was new with the aircraft, in 1966.
What I've learnt from this is to actually measure the current used by
each of the consumers one plans to use.
<>
Will do.
Thanks.
Bill Allen
**
**
On 30 October 2013 02:22, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 08:28 AM 10/29/2013, you wrote:
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> 1. Yes, well caught, the B&C SD20 fits on the vacpad not the mag location.
> My mis-type. - trying to colour in one point (the draw of the master relay)
> and not paying attention to the details. I'm using a Pmag-E and an LSE
> as ignition systems.
>
>
> Okay, you've got a 15a current budget . . . 5A of
> rated output should be 'walled off' for battery
> recharging in flight . . . and remember, the SD-20
> doesn't give you any useful output until you're airborne.
>
> 2. Your tests showing the real draw on the master solenoid are very
> revealing, presuming that the master solenoid I have from Aircraft Spruce (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php?clickkey=10293) is a Cole-Hersee - I'm unfamiliar with the term but gather from googling
> that they are to solenoids what Hoover is to vacuum cleaners.
>
> However, 0.8amps is still almost the equivalent of a Garmin 430 (0.2a
> stby), Funkwerk Com (0.1a stby),DynonXPDR-262 (0.15a stby) and AeroLED
> Navlights (0.4a). All are "brochure figures" unless I've misread them.
>
>
> So do all the math. Get this form
>
> http://tinyurl.com/7jqypwj
>
> and do an inventory of every electrical
> load . . . including the battery contactor.
> Don't fuss with bus-decisions yet, just
> get a read on total loads under various
> flight conditions.
>
>
> 3. The failure I experienced on my PA30 was on the ground. I found a
> totally dead system with a good battery, and traced it quickly to the
> master relay not activating. A new unit fixed it, and upon stripping the
> old one, I found moisture penetration of the internals to be the cause.
> Cleaning it up got it working again, but not to the point that I wanted to
> risk the disruption it could cause if it failed again.to
>
>
> Surely your anticipated system can function
> with the battery contactor open . . . whether
> it opens from failure or the fact that you
> shut it off, getting to an airport of intended
> destination shouldn't be a foreboding task.
>
>
> Had it failed in flight I would not have lost engine power, but would have
> lost all ships power, unless there is an e-bus on a 1966 PA30 that I'm not
> aware of, which is possible.
>
>
> No, they don't have that feature . . . but if
> it were my airplane . . . it would.
>
> Do you have a flight-bag back-up?
>
> http://tinyurl.com/lg3n4gh
>
>
> If you'd like me to mail it to you for dissection, I can do that.
>
>
> Not useful at this stage. The major point is that
> it failed on the ground. I won't say that failures
> in fight never happen . . . but they are exceedingly
> rare. If one has failed in flight, I'd give pretty
> good odds that the pilot was 'warned' . . . probably
> conducted more than one flight where the contactor
> had to be 'jiggered' in some way before the panel lit
> up . . . and he doesn't even know what an e-bus is.
>
> I'd also give pretty good odds that the contactor
> you replaced had been in service for a considerable
> period of time.
>
> I'm supposed to get a networked computer at Cessna
> on Monday. I'd should be able to search the archives
> for history on part numbers used for both production
> and spares on the single engine line going back a
> very long way.
>
>
> 4. What I've learnt from this (ie, point 2 above) is to actually measure
> the current used by each of the consumers one plans to use.
>
>
> That's never wrong. When you get all the numbers, give
> us a list of your findings.
>
>
> If the acceptance of 2amps for the master relay (but actually 0.8amps) is
> read across in this way for all other units, it's easily possible to end up
> with an alternator, wires, switches, fuses etc all way oversize and
> overweight.
>
>
> That's not typical. I've never seen a value greater
> than 1.0A assigned to battery contactors on single
> engine airplanes. Further, the numbers from installation
> manuals on items used in TC aircraft should be golden.
> Updating load analysis and weight and balance for
> any changes to an airplane is pretty much a given for
> which the manufacturer is obligated to support with
> good numbers.
>
> Add 'em all up and see if you've busted your 15A
> bubble. Running loads only, intermittent loads like
> flap motors, trim motors, transmitters, etc are
> not significant energy consumers.
>
> **
>
> ** Bob . . .
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Prather <mapratherid(at)gmail.com> |
Seems like the relay (contactor) that draws 0.8-2A (depending on how it's
measured) is one that is sized to be capable of carrying starter currents
(though not necessarily capable of switching them reliably). An
architecture that uses such a contactor for all devices is probably fine
when you have 40A+ to play with. But, in an application where you're on a
tight energy budget, maybe it would make sense to have parallel
contactors/relays. A smaller relay might be able to handle everything but
starting current, and only consume 100-200mA to do it. The heavy one would
only be energized when starting the engine. It may break the architecture
goal of running the B-lead current through the heavy starter wire, but that
may still be a good deal.
Regards,
Matt-
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Bill Allen wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
> You wrote;
>
> < rated output should be 'walled off' for battery
> recharging in flight . . . and remember, the SD-20
> doesn't give you any useful output until you're airborne.>>
>
> Noted.
>
> << So do all the math. Get this form http://tinyurl.com/7jqypwj and do
> an inventory of every electrical load . . . including the battery
> contactor.Don't fuss with bus-decisions yet, just get a read on total
> loads under various flight conditions.>>
>
> Got the form. Willdo.
>
> < it opens from failure or the fact that you shut it off, getting to an
> airport of intended destination shouldn't be a foreboding task.>>
>
> Presumably that's what the e-bus is there for in your designs, if not the
> architecture of Mr.Piper in 1966, when my PA30 was built.
>
>
> << Do you have a flight-bag back-up? http://tinyurl.com/lg3n4gh >> Yes
> I do.
>
>
> << I'd also give pretty good odds that the contactor you replaced had
> been in service for a considerable period of time >>
>
> I have no reason to doubt it was new with the aircraft, in 1966.
>
> What I've learnt from this is to actually measure the current used by
> each of the consumers one plans to use.
>
> < us a list of your findings. Add 'em all up and see if you've busted
> your 15A
> bubble. Running loads only, intermittent loads like
> flap motors, trim motors, transmitters, etc are
> not significant energy consumers.>>
>
>
> Will do.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Allen
>
>
> **
>
> **
>
>
> On 30 October 2013 02:22, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 08:28 AM 10/29/2013, you wrote:
>>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> Thanks for the reply.
>>
>> 1. Yes, well caught, the B&C SD20 fits on the vacpad not the mag
>> location. My mis-type. - trying to colour in one point (the draw of the
>> master relay) and not paying attention to the details. I'm using a
>> Pmag-E and an LSE as ignition systems.
>>
>>
>> Okay, you've got a 15a current budget . . . 5A of
>> rated output should be 'walled off' for battery
>> recharging in flight . . . and remember, the SD-20
>> doesn't give you any useful output until you're airborne.
>>
>> 2. Your tests showing the real draw on the master solenoid are very
>> revealing, presuming that the master solenoid I have from Aircraft Spruce (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php?clickkey=10293) is a Cole-Hersee - I'm unfamiliar with the term but gather from googling
>> that they are to solenoids what Hoover is to vacuum cleaners.
>>
>> However, 0.8amps is still almost the equivalent of a Garmin 430 (0.2a
>> stby), Funkwerk Com (0.1a stby),DynonXPDR-262 (0.15a stby) and AeroLED
>> Navlights (0.4a). All are "brochure figures" unless I've misread them.
>>
>>
>> So do all the math. Get this form
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/7jqypwj
>>
>> and do an inventory of every electrical
>> load . . . including the battery contactor.
>> Don't fuss with bus-decisions yet, just
>> get a read on total loads under various
>> flight conditions.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 3. The failure I experienced on my PA30 was on the ground. I found a
>> totally dead system with a good battery, and traced it quickly to the
>> master relay not activating. A new unit fixed it, and upon stripping the
>> old one, I found moisture penetration of the internals to be the cause.
>> Cleaning it up got it working again, but not to the point that I wanted to
>> risk the disruption it could cause if it failed again.to
>>
>>
>> Surely your anticipated system can function
>> with the battery contactor open . . . whether
>> it opens from failure or the fact that you
>> shut it off, getting to an airport of intended
>> destination shouldn't be a foreboding task.
>>
>>
>> Had it failed in flight I would not have lost engine power, but would
>> have lost all ships power, unless there is an e-bus on a 1966 PA30 that I'm
>> not aware of, which is possible.
>>
>>
>> No, they don't have that feature . . . but if
>> it were my airplane . . . it would.
>>
>> Do you have a flight-bag back-up?
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/lg3n4gh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If you'd like me to mail it to you for dissection, I can do that.
>>
>>
>> Not useful at this stage. The major point is that
>> it failed on the ground. I won't say that failures
>> in fight never happen . . . but they are exceedingly
>> rare. If one has failed in flight, I'd give pretty
>> good odds that the pilot was 'warned' . . . probably
>> conducted more than one flight where the contactor
>> had to be 'jiggered' in some way before the panel lit
>> up . . . and he doesn't even know what an e-bus is.
>>
>> I'd also give pretty good odds that the contactor
>> you replaced had been in service for a considerable
>> period of time.
>>
>> I'm supposed to get a networked computer at Cessna
>> on Monday. I'd should be able to search the archives
>> for history on part numbers used for both production
>> and spares on the single engine line going back a
>> very long way.
>>
>>
>>
>> 4. What I've learnt from this (ie, point 2 above) is to actually measure
>> the current used by each of the consumers one plans to use.
>>
>>
>> That's never wrong. When you get all the numbers, give
>> us a list of your findings.
>>
>>
>>
>> If the acceptance of 2amps for the master relay (but actually 0.8amps)
>> is read across in this way for all other units, it's easily possible to end
>> up with an alternator, wires, switches, fuses etc all way oversize and
>> overweight.
>>
>>
>> That's not typical. I've never seen a value greater
>> than 1.0A assigned to battery contactors on single
>> engine airplanes. Further, the numbers from installation
>> manuals on items used in TC aircraft should be golden.
>> Updating load analysis and weight and balance for
>> any changes to an airplane is pretty much a given for
>> which the manufacturer is obligated to support with
>> good numbers.
>>
>> Add 'em all up and see if you've busted your 15A
>> bubble. Running loads only, intermittent loads like
>> flap motors, trim motors, transmitters, etc are
>> not significant energy consumers.
>>
>> **
>>
>> ** Bob . . .
>>
>> *
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Jean" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Aviation intercom |
Does anyone have the schematic or Manual for the WGA Model AIR-1177
Aviation Intercom System? I am trying to figure out the input and
output jacks on the box. I intend to mount it in a panel along with an
isolation amp.
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
I use automotive "cube" relays (one for the master relay, one for alternator) rated
at 70A. They are light and consume less than 300mA each. Is there a reason
not to use them? The only potential drawback I'm aware of is that they can
break the contact if subject to violent shocks. But loosing panel power for a
few milliseconds doesn't seem such a big issue (the autopilot does reset but then
in such violent turbulence you might be hand flying the thing in any case,
and the GNS430 doesn't even notice any absence of power that lasts that little).
Are there other risks I am not considering here? This is a VFR only machine and
I'm a low time PPL so not the most experienced in these matters.
Sacha
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
Sacha,
I have used one of these Bosch 70amp relays for the master in my
experimental Bonanza for the past 8 years - rock solid! I still use the
caveman relay for the starter.
Bob Verwey
A35 ZU-DLW
On 1 November 2013 07:10, Sacha wrote:
>
> I use automotive "cube" relays (one for the master relay, one for
> alternator) rated at 70A. They are light and consume less than 300mA each.
> Is there a reason not to use them? The only potential drawback I'm aware
> of is that they can break the contact if subject to violent shocks. But
> loosing panel power for a few milliseconds doesn't seem such a big issue
> (the autopilot does reset but then in such violent turbulence you might be
> hand flying the thing in any case, and the GNS430 doesn't even notice any
> absence of power that lasts that little).
>
> Are there other risks I am not considering here? This is a VFR only
> machine and I'm a low time PPL so not the most experienced in these matters.
>
> Sacha
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | PLEASE READ - Matronics Email List Fund Raiser During |
November!
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator without a Battery |
At 09:21 PM 10/30/2013, you wrote:
Bob,
It has taken days for me to respond because I couldn't get the
website to respond to my enquiries and, consequently, I was unable to
open your new drawing. Today I could! Thanks for your response.
No problem. I started at Cessna last Monday
and the IT Spirits have yet to honor me with
a CAT5 portal to the outside world . . . So
I've been 'disconnected' to some degree as
well . . .
You state that you wouldn't shut down a battery unless there is smoke
in the cockpit and, in which case you would shut down the alternator
as well. If a battery is shorting and drawing more and more current
from the alternator, why wouldn't you disconnect it or do you
consider this too unlikely to design against?
First, how does such a fault become known
to you? You would need a battery-specific
ammeter combined with a bus voltage indicator
combined with the skills to monitor and
interpret those readings for signs of failure.
You ask why two batteries? I'm reconsidering. If the battery can be
disconnected and the engine continues to run on only the alternator,
then one battery probably meets my design goals. Thanks for the question.
A design goal for discussions on this List is
to identify drivers of risk based on useful
study and exploitation of the physics.
As you suggested, I've looked at your new drawing, but I don't think
it meets all my design goals. A shorted battery can't be
disconnected. I'll continue to study it w.r.t my other design goals. Thanks.
Have you identified any instance where a 'shorted
battery' took a system down? A battery is like
a house plant. Given attention tailored to its
needs, it will thrive and perform with great
predictability . . . and reliability. Instances
of battery failure are generally driven by failure
to track the battery's condition and to service
or replace it when performance falls below limits.
I've not heard the phrase "shorted battery" uttered
or written over the course of my career where the
battery was not first subjected to abuses of
poor system architecture and/or poorly implemented
operation and maintenance.
We're encouraged to change oil, plugs, add
magic potions, install engine analyzers, and
read voraciously from every author that claims
to offer words of wisdom for getting the most
from an engine. Now the battery is becoming
an integral component of the system that spins
the prop. I suggest that it be treated with
no less curiosity and respect for capabilities
and limits than your engine.
I will suggest that design goals for your system
include crafting and implementation of an
architecture and maintenance that recognizes
the role of the battery and optimizes conditions
for it to perform.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aviation intercom |
At 07:30 PM 10/31/2013, you wrote:
>Does anyone have the schematic or Manual for the WGA Model AIR-1177
>Aviation Intercom System? I am trying to figure out the input and
>output jacks on the box. I intend to mount it in a panel along with
>an isolation amp.
>
>Roger
I've not been able to find this product on the 'net.
Where did you find this critter?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A&P Student Battery/Starter Contactor Question |
At 07:44 PM 10/31/2013, you wrote:
Dear Bob,
I just finished a very nice conversation with Bill Bainbridge at B
and C Specialty Products, following through with a question to his
company that I had sent through his website. I learned a great deal
from Bill, though he's referred me to you for what was my initial
question. Here was the original question:
Hi Folks,
I'm an A&P student at Miramar College in San Diego. I'm researching
battery contactors and starter contactors, and haven't been able to
figure out why battery contactors are negatively-controlled, and
starter contactors are positively-controlled. Why can't both of them,
(with slightly different wiring) both be, say, positively controlled?
Is there some historical reason or some technical reason? I would so
appreciate your expertise, as I heard you have a lot of expertise
(from Lyle at Gibbs Repair Station here in San Diego). Thanks so much
for your time. Regards.
Bob, I've been reading through your FAQ's on contactors on your
website--I'm learning much more than we learn in our A & P textbooks!
However, I haven't quite been able to piece together the information
for my answer. I think if I'm out in the bush wiring a plane together
and I have two battery contactors and no starter contactor (as my
instructor says... A & P Mechanics are the smartest people in the
world, and they'll figure out a way to do something...:-)...) that's
when I wonder why they are electrically wired differently.
Hi Lisa,
I don't know that there was any great
debate for the realization of design goals
beyond simplicity and convenience.
Doing a pull-down circuit on a battery
contactor is simpler. One could bring a wire
off the hot side of a contactor into the
cockpit mounted battery switch and back out
to a pull-up terminal of a contactor
coil . . . twice the wire and you need to fuse
the hot end of the supply wire.
I've seen starter contactors wired as a
"pull to ground" control system, just
no on airplanes. The legacy off-l-r-both-start
key-switch could be wired to utilize a
starter contactor with either pull-down or
pull-up control. Power to control the
starter contactor is already available from a
bus in the cockpit so you don't have twice the
wire . . . but you DO need circuit protection
off the bus.
It might have some roots in a system safety
decision. A starter pull-down control line on
a starter contactor is more likely to become
faulted to ground and initiate unintended
starter operation. A pull-up control line is
less likely to get faulted to a source of
power.
The short answer to your question does not
offer insights into any great thinking on the
part of designers who adopted these conventions
100 years ago. Designers in those days were
probably not into reliability studies of
probability for hazardous failure.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aviation intercom |
Bob (and Roger)...
I found the intercom on the maker's website, (
www.warrengregoire.com/aviation-intercoms.htm ) but no manuals or
schematics there.
However, there is contact information:
*
Warren Gregoire and Associates LLC*
FOR PILOTS AND AIRCRAFT OWNERS
1933 Davis Street, Suite 276, San Leandro, CA 94577, USA
HOURS*
_
_TELEPHONES*
*/*TOLL-FREE*/ *1-800-634-0094* - USA and Canada
510-633-9353 - All Other Countries
510-633-9355 - FAX
INTERNET*
*warrengregoire(at)hotmail.com -
Questions?
warrengregoire(at)hotmail.com -
Sales Department
Harley Dixon
-----------------------------------------------------------------
On 11/1/2013 8:13 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 07:30 PM 10/31/2013, you wrote:
>> Does anyone have the schematic or Manual for the WGA Model
>> AIR-1177 Aviation Intercom System? I am trying to figure out
>> the input and output jacks on the box. I intend to mount it
>> in a panel along with an isolation amp.
>>
>> Roger
>
> I've not been able to find this product on the 'net.
> Where did you find this critter?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> *
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 12:10 AM 11/1/2013, you wrote:
>
>I use automotive "cube" relays (one for the master relay, one for
>alternator) rated at 70A. They are light and consume less than 300mA
>each. Is there a reason not to use them? The only potential
>drawback I'm aware of is that they can break the contact if subject
>to violent shocks. But loosing panel power for a few milliseconds
>doesn't seem such a big issue (the autopilot does reset but then in
>such violent turbulence you might be hand flying the thing in any
>case, and the GNS430 doesn't even notice any absence of power that
>lasts that little).
>
>Are there other risks I am not considering here? This is a VFR only
>machine and I'm a low time PPL so not the most experienced in these matters.
The legacy battery contactor is tasked with
carrying normal operating loads usually in
the tens of amps but predicated on getting an
engine started . . . loads of perhaps 200A.
Hence the selection of contactors that seem
unnecessarily oversized to the task. But the
one device can do it all. Some of the designs
we're considering DO add smaller relays which
function as a mini-contactor to handle loads
other than starting and/or battery recharging.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 12:21 AM 11/1/2013, you wrote:
>Sacha,
>I have used one of these Bosch 70amp relays for the master in my
>experimental Bonanza for the past 8 years - rock solid! I still use
>the caveman relay for the starter.
>
>Bob Verwey
>A35 ZU-DLW
But you don't crank the engine through it do you?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aviation intercom |
Does anyone have the schematic or Manual for the WGA Model AIR-1177 Aviatio
n Intercom System=3F I am trying to figure out the input and output jacks on
the box. I intend to mount it in a panel along with an isolation amp.
I've not been able to find this product on the 'net.
Where did you find this critter=3F
A Google search brings it right up: http://www.warrengregoire.com/aviation-
intercoms.htm
Roger
--
Do you have a slow PC=3F Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfi
ghter=3Fcid=sigen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
From my newly acquired perch within the halls
of Cessna Engineering I've discovered that the
battery and starter contactors used on the single
engine fleet have pretty much always been in the
same style and ratings as the Cole-Hersee, RBM,
Stancore, White-Rogers devices we've been discussing
here on the List.
Before the Great Shut-Down, Cessna purchased individual
contactors for installation on the line. After the
Great Resurrection, the contactors came to Cessna as
part of a power distribution box mounting up to
4 such contactors. Battery, starter, alternator, ground-
power. Of course, they're all 24 volt devices.
During my earlier tenure at Cessna (64-69) the starter
contactors were a low-duty cycle version of the battery
contactor. They left something to be desired as SWITCHING
devices for starter currents. I suspect that the
modern starter contactors have exploited discoveries
common to contemporary automotive starter contactors
for small area, very high pressure contacts.
http://tinyurl.com/96wy5mq
Yes, there have been some serviceability issues managed
by some modifications to the contact materials, springs,
etc. etc. But the general configuration of the modern
contactor has changed little since 1948. But in particular,
there's no reason to believe that the modern encarnation
of the 70 series device is any less suited to task
as a battery contactor than it has been for many years.
I dug up a 1960 copy of an Allied Electronics catalog
hoping to discover the price of these devices back then.
They don't appear in that catalog.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Watts on resistors |
| From: | Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
Bob and all
The VP-X Pro installation manual recomends, in order to have Volt indication from
the Aux Batt, to connect the + terminal to a certain pin in the box, trough
a 1Kohm - 1W resistor.
Problem is that I can only find 1Kohm - 2W resistor. So, to learn something else
today, can someone please explain if there is any problem if I use the 2W instead
of 1W resistor.
(Please don't answer indicating a source for 1W resistors...)
Regards
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Watts on resistors |
> Problem is that I can only find 1Kohm - 2W resistor. So, to learn
> something else today, can someone please explain if there is any problem
> if I use the 2W instead of 1W resistor.
The 2 watt resistor will work exactly the same in the circuit as a 1
watt.
The only difference is that the 2 watt is somewhat larger with more
surface
area and can dissipate more heat without burning up.
Roger
--
Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Watts on resistors |
It should be no problem, Carlos, as long as you have enough room and the circuit
isn't frequency sensitive. Wattage is the resistor's ability to dissipate heat,
and the resistor is bigger as the wattage goes up.
Henador Titzoff
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 11/1/13, Carlos Trigo wrote:
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Watts on resistors
To: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com"
Date: Friday, November 1, 2013, 7:21 AM
--> AeroElectric-List message
posted by: Carlos Trigo
Bob and all
The VP-X Pro installation manual recomends, in order to have
Volt indication from the Aux Batt, to connect the + terminal
to a certain pin in the box, trough a 1Kohm - 1W resistor.
Problem is that I can only find 1Kohm - 2W resistor. So, to
learn something else today, can someone please explain if
there is any problem if I use the 2W instead of 1W
resistor.
(Please don't answer indicating a source for 1W
resistors...)
Regards
Carlos
Lists This Month --
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more about
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-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Watts on resistors |
At 09:21 AM 11/1/2013, you wrote:
>
>Bob and all
>
>The VP-X Pro installation manual recomends, in order to have Volt
>indication from the Aux Batt, to connect the + terminal to a certain
>pin in the box, trough a 1Kohm - 1W resistor.
>Problem is that I can only find 1Kohm - 2W resistor. So, to learn
>something else today, can someone please explain if there is any
>problem if I use the 2W instead of 1W resistor.
>(Please don't answer indicating a source for 1W resistors...)
That's an easy one.
The resistor is a substitute for a fuse. Further,
it's called out as 1-watt for mechanical convenience
and robustness. Examples:
Some years back I suggested that the most valuable
and often least accessible data point for diagnosing
an alternator problem is to watch FIELD VOLTAGE
behavior while putting an alternator through
its paces.
I published this little feature in Z-23 suggesting
a permanently attached wire PROTECTED by a resistor
leading from the alternator field to some handy point
in the cockpit.
Emacs!
A fuse would be okay too. A 1/4 watt would work but 1/2
watt was mechanically more robust, 1w would have
been better yet. So as long as you don't mind a larger
'lump' in your battery sense lead, a 2W resistor is
okay as well.
http://tinyurl.com/kyc6tq6
I think it was here on the List that I once suggested
a tubular, 10-watt wire wound resistor with flag
terminals as a suitable enclosure for a reed switch
current sensor.
Emacs!
The 'jeep' was to put lead wires on the reed switch
then epoxy into place down the center of the tubular
resistor. Then wind an excitation coil around the
center of the resistor over the reed. Calibrate
closure current for the reed by adjusting coil
turns.
In this case, the actual value of the resistor
wasn't critical . . . just needed to be high
enough not to adversely affect current through
the the coil. The resistor became a robust
'housing' for the current sense relay offering
a convenient terminals to tie off ends
of the coil.
These are but two examples of many where the
designer's 'sizing' of a component may not
have obvious foundation in the original
design goals for the part.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Watts on resistors |
> The VP-X Pro installation manual recomends, in order to have
> Volt indication from the Aux Batt, to connect the + terminal
> to a certain pin in the box, trough a 1Kohm - 1W resistor.
Hmmm . . . I think Marc harvested that concept for
sense wire protection off of Z-23.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Watts on resistors |
Hi Carlos,
My view is 2W will be fine - it means that the resistor will cope with a
higher voltage (45v) & so dissipate more energy. A 1W resistor will cope
with 32v (theoretically).
Peter
On 01/11/2013 14:21, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
> Bob and all
>
> The VP-X Pro installation manual recomends, in order to have Volt indication
from the Aux Batt, to connect the + terminal to a certain pin in the box, trough
a 1Kohm - 1W resistor.
> Problem is that I can only find 1Kohm - 2W resistor. So, to learn something else
today, can someone please explain if there is any problem if I use the 2W
instead of 1W resistor.
> (Please don't answer indicating a source for 1W resistors...)
>
> Regards
> Carlos
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Watts on resistors |
| From: | Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> |
So it sounds like they are using a resistor to protect the sensor wire from over
current/unintentional ground instead of a fuse, is that the purpose here?
Tim
> On Nov 1, 2013, at 8:15 AM, "R. curtis" wrote:
>
>
>> Problem is that I can only find 1Kohm - 2W resistor. So, to learn something
else today, can someone please explain if there is any problem if I use the 2W
instead of 1W resistor.
>
> The 2 watt resistor will work exactly the same in the circuit as a 1 watt.
> The only difference is that the 2 watt is somewhat larger with more surface
> area and can dissipate more heat without burning up.
>
> Roger
>
> --
>
> Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Watts on resistors |
At 10:48 AM 11/1/2013, you wrote:
>
>So it sounds like they are using a resistor to protect the sensor
>wire from over current/unintentional ground instead of a fuse, is
>that the purpose here?
>Tim
Exactly. The input impedance to the instrumentation
system is either sufficiently large that added
1K of resistance is insignificant . . . or is a
calculated part of the input voltage divider.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
>>> Sacha,
>>> I have used one of these Bosch 70amp relays for the master in my experimental
Bonanza for the past 8 years - rock solid! I still use the caveman relay for
the starter.
>>>
>>> Bob Verwey
>>> A35 ZU-DLW
>>
Thanks Bob V for the validation.
>> But you don't crank the engine through it do you?
No, the starter contactor is not the automotive type.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
On Nov 1, 2013, at 13:37, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
wrote:
>
> At 12:10 AM 11/1/2013, you wrote:
>>
>> I use automotive "cube" relays (one for the master relay, one for alternator)
rated at 70A. They are light and consume less than 300mA each. Is there a reason
not to use them? The only potential drawback I'm aware of is that they can
break the contact if subject to violent shocks. But loosing panel power for
a few milliseconds doesn't seem such a big issue (the autopilot does reset but
then in such violent turbulence you might be hand flying the thing in any case,
and the GNS430 doesn't even notice any absence of power that lasts that little).
>>
>> Are there other risks I am not considering here? This is a VFR only machine
and I'm a low time PPL so not the most experienced in these matters.
>
> The legacy battery contactor is tasked with
> carrying normal operating loads usually in
> the tens of amps but predicated on getting an
> engine started . . . loads of perhaps 200A.
Ah. Ok now I understand your previous question. In my case the fat wire to the
starter contactor is always hot. The master just activates the coil circuit.
I now know this is against conventional design where master OFF is supposed to
correspond to max darkness. In my case the total length of fat (positive) wire
is approx 50cm (20"): battery to starter contactor to starter motor.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
There is a potential problem in using only the starter contactor to
switch the starter motor power - those contactors are known to
occasionally weld themselves together. In that case, with only the
starter contactor switching power to the starter, there is then no way
of disengaging it from the running engine until the battery is flat (if
that ever happens as the starter is now a generator). In the UK the
authorities insist that a light is installed in the panel warning the
pilot the starter remains energised, as there have been several
accidents. The engaged starter saps a large amount of power from the
engine and gets very hot, with unpleasant consequences.
If a modern starter with a piggy-back solenoid is fitted, to avoid the
master relay handling the starting current, the jumper that normally
energises the solenoid can be brought into a cockpit switch to disable
the starter if the the starter contactor does weld on. A small
additional parts count, but the switch never does any switching except
in emergency.
Peter
On 01/11/2013 17:44, Sacha wrote:
>
>
> On Nov 1, 2013, at 13:37, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
wrote:
>
>>
>> At 12:10 AM 11/1/2013, you wrote:
>>>
>>> I use automotive "cube" relays (one for the master relay, one for alternator)
rated at 70A. They are light and consume less than 300mA each. Is there a reason
not to use them? The only potential drawback I'm aware of is that they
can break the contact if subject to violent shocks. But loosing panel power for
a few milliseconds doesn't seem such a big issue (the autopilot does reset but
then in such violent turbulence you might be hand flying the thing in any case,
and the GNS430 doesn't even notice any absence of power that lasts that little).
>>>
>>> Are there other risks I am not considering here? This is a VFR only machine
and I'm a low time PPL so not the most experienced in these matters.
>> The legacy battery contactor is tasked with
>> carrying normal operating loads usually in
>> the tens of amps but predicated on getting an
>> engine started . . . loads of perhaps 200A.
> Ah. Ok now I understand your previous question. In my case the fat wire to the
starter contactor is always hot. The master just activates the coil circuit.
>
> I now know this is against conventional design where master OFF is supposed to
correspond to max darkness. In my case the total length of fat (positive) wire
is approx 50cm (20"): battery to starter contactor to starter motor.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
There is a potential problem in using only the starter
contactor to switch the starter motor power - those contactors are known to
occasionally weld themselves together. In that case, with only the starter
contactor switching power to the starter, there is then no way of
disengaging it from the running engine until the battery is flat (if that
ever happens as the starter is now a generator). In the UK the authorities
insist that a light is installed in the panel warning the pilot the starter
remains energised, as there have been several accidents. The engaged starter
saps a large amount of power from the engine and gets very hot, with
unpleasant consequences.
Good point, I hadn't thought of that failure mode.
If a modern starter with a piggy-back solenoid is fitted, to
avoid the master relay handling the starting current, the jumper that
normally energises the solenoid can be brought into a cockpit switch to
disable the starter if the the starter contactor does weld on. A small
additional parts count, but the switch never does any switching except in
emergency.
You're speaking about the solenoid on the starter motor? I don't recall
seeing any external jumper there (the engine is a Rotax 912). I'll have a
check next time I'm down at the hangar.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Trusting a chargers reputation, what an idiot! |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
> the battery is 13.4 and the MGL Efis shows supply voltage as 12.9. I have checked
all feeds and connectors, but cannot isolate the voltage drop....
Subtracting 12.9 from 13.4 equals 0.5 volts which is the voltage drop across a
diode. Is the MGL EFIS powered through an E-Bus diode? What happens when the
E-Bus alternate feed path (if installed) is turned on?
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411967#411967
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Watts on resistors |
Many thanks to all who responded.
Apart from the aplication itself (resistor already installed), it's always
a pleasure to learn something every day.
And this list is one of the best to this purpose.
Best
Carlos
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: sexta-feira, 1 de Novembro de 2013 15:40
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Watts on resistors
At 09:21 AM 11/1/2013, you wrote:
Bob and all
The VP-X Pro installation manual recomends, in order to have Volt indication
from the Aux Batt, to connect the + terminal to a certain pin in the box,
trough a 1Kohm - 1W resistor.
Problem is that I can only find 1Kohm - 2W resistor. So, to learn something
else today, can someone please explain if there is any problem if I use the
2W instead of 1W resistor.
(Please don't answer indicating a source for 1W resistors...)
That's an easy one.
The resistor is a substitute for a fuse. Further,
it's called out as 1-watt for mechanical convenience
and robustness. Examples:
Some years back I suggested that the most valuable
and often least accessible data point for diagnosing
an alternator problem is to watch FIELD VOLTAGE
behavior while putting an alternator through
its paces.
I published this little feature in Z-23 suggesting
a permanently attached wire PROTECTED by a resistor
leading from the alternator field to some handy point
in the cockpit.
Emacs!
A fuse would be okay too. A 1/4 watt would work but 1/2
watt was mechanically more robust, 1w would have
been better yet. So as long as you don't mind a larger
'lump' in your battery sense lead, a 2W resistor is
okay as well.
http://tinyurl.com/kyc6tq6
I think it was here on the List that I once suggested
a tubular, 10-watt wire wound resistor with flag
terminals as a suitable enclosure for a reed switch
current sensor.
Emacs!
The 'jeep' was to put lead wires on the reed switch
then epoxy into place down the center of the tubular
resistor. Then wind an excitation coil around the
center of the resistor over the reed. Calibrate
closure current for the reed by adjusting coil
turns.
In this case, the actual value of the resistor
wasn't critical . . . just needed to be high
enough not to adversely affect current through
the the coil. The resistor became a robust
'housing' for the current sense relay offering
a convenient terminals to tie off ends
of the coil.
These are but two examples of many where the
designer's 'sizing' of a component may not
have obvious foundation in the original
design goals for the part.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
>> If a modern starter with a piggy-back solenoid is fitted,
>> to avoid the master relay handling the starting current, the jumper that
>> normally energises the solenoid can be brought into a cockpit switch to
>> disable the starter if the the starter contactor does weld on. A small
>> additional parts count, but the switch never does any switching except in
>> emergency.
>
> You're speaking about the solenoid on the starter motor? I don't recall
> seeing any external jumper there (the engine is a Rotax 912). I'll have a
> check next time I'm down at the hangar.
I couldn't find anything there unfortunately. The starter motor just has one terminal
for the fat positive wire.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aviation intercom |
Does anyone have the schematic or Manual for the WGA Model AIR-1177 Aviat
ion Intercom System=3F I am trying to figure out the input and output jacks
on the box. I intend to mount it in a panel along with an isolation amp.
The box has on-off volume and squelch controls. There are 3 cables comi
ng out of each side of the box, one side for Pilot and the other for Copilo
t. 2 of the cables are mic and headset jacks, and there is another cable wi
th a 1/4=22 plug attached, and don't know where this gets plugged into. Also
there are 3 small jacks on the end of the box marked EXP, COPILOT, AUX. D
on't know what these are for either.
I called the company some time ago and got some rather arrogant non ans
wers so this is why I decided to ask on the list if anyone has any experien
ce with this device.
Any assistance appreciated.
Roger
--
Do you have a slow PC=3F Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfi
ghter=3Fcid=sigen
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | CONTACT EXTRACTOR |
| From: | "racerjerry" <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
Can someone give me the (working tip end) dimensions of the Bendix/King contact
extraction tool p/n 047-05099-001 that is used to remove contacts p/n 030-01107-00xx
as used on KT 76 and KX 155. Please no guesses I need a caliper on
this one. I will be working under extremely difficult conditions.
Apparently, this tool is also known as Molex p/n HT-1884
Thank you for your help.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=411998#411998
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
Sacha,
Apologies, I'm not very familiar with Rotax components. It would be good
to know how much current a Rotax starter pulls - I guess it is likely
that as the engine is only 1200cc the draw would rather less than a
starter for a 5/6 litre Lyc. I believe a Lyc starter pulls between 200
to 500A depending on starter type and compression ratio. If a Rotax
pulls substantially less the potential for the starter contactor to weld
itself shut would be lower (probably not a linear relationship), and so
the risk of a problem that much lower. You may decide you can tolerate
the risk without additional mitigations.
Peter
On 02/11/2013 21:10, Sacha wrote:
>
>
>>> If a modern starter with a piggy-back solenoid is fitted,
>>> to avoid the master relay handling the starting current, the jumper that
>>> normally energises the solenoid can be brought into a cockpit switch to
>>> disable the starter if the the starter contactor does weld on. A small
>>> additional parts count, but the switch never does any switching except in
>>> emergency.
>> You're speaking about the solenoid on the starter motor? I don't recall
>> seeing any external jumper there (the engine is a Rotax 912). I'll have a
>> check next time I'm down at the hangar.
> I couldn't find anything there unfortunately. The starter motor just has one
terminal for the fat positive wire.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Peter
Actually I realized today that I can easily use the semi-useless alternator off
warning light that I fitted on my panel as a "starter on warning light" with
minimal rewiring. Since 99.9% of the time I'm going to be on the ground while
starting my engine, I think I can live with the fact of not being able to disable
the starter motor if the contactor gets stuck somehow since I can just shut
down the engine.
Out of interest I will try to measure how many amps are drawn by the starter next
time I'm down at the hangar. Though I suspect this would vary somewhat depending
on temperature.
I've almost finished the CAD drawings of my electrical system so I'll be submitting
them to the list for review and criticism soon.
Sacha
On Nov 3, 2013, at 21:42, Peter Pengilly wrote:
> Apologies, I'm not very familiar with Rotax components. It would be good to know
how much current a Rotax starter pulls - I guess it is likely that as the
engine is only 1200cc the draw would rather less than a starter for a 5/6 litre
Lyc. I believe a Lyc starter pulls between 200 to 500A depending on starter
type and compression ratio. If a Rotax pulls substantially less the potential
for the starter contactor to weld itself shut would be lower (probably not a linear
relationship), and so the risk of a problem that much lower. You may decide
you can tolerate the risk without additional mitigations.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Sacha
Being able to pull the mixture control whilst on the ground will stop the
engine from producing power, but if the start motor is still energised due
to the failed contactor, won't it keep cranking until you pull a terminal
off the battery? I'm not that familiar with the starters used in aviation
(I hand-swing my engine), so am unsure if they have a disengage mechanism
like they do on cars.
Thanks
Etienne
On 4 November 2013 00:07, Sacha wrote:
>
> Thanks Peter
> Actually I realized today that I can easily use the semi-useless
> alternator off warning light that I fitted on my panel as a "starter on
> warning light" with minimal rewiring. Since 99.9% of the time I'm going to
> be on the ground while starting my engine, I think I can live with the
> fact of not being able to disable the starter motor if the contactor gets
> stuck somehow since I can just shut down the engine.
> Out of interest I will try to measure how many amps are drawn by the
> starter next time I'm down at the hangar. Though I suspect this would vary
> somewhat depending on temperature.
> I've almost finished the CAD drawings of my electrical system so I'll be
> submitting them to the list for review and criticism soon.
> Sacha
>
> On Nov 3, 2013, at 21:42, Peter Pengilly wrote:
>
> > Apologies, I'm not very familiar with Rotax components. It would be good
> to know how much current a Rotax starter pulls - I guess it is likely that
> as the engine is only 1200cc the draw would rather less than a starter for
> a 5/6 litre Lyc. I believe a Lyc starter pulls between 200 to 500A
> depending on starter type and compression ratio. If a Rotax pulls
> substantially less the potential for the starter contactor to weld itself
> shut would be lower (probably not a linear relationship), and so the risk
> of a problem that much lower. You may decide you can tolerate the risk
> without additional mitigations.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 03:16 AM 11/2/2013, you wrote:
>
>
>There is a potential problem in using only the starter contactor to
>switch the starter motor power - those contactors are known to
>occasionally weld themselves together. In that case, with only the
>starter contactor switching power to the starter, there is then no
>way of disengaging it from the running engine until the battery is flat
This was a greater risk when starter contactors
were intermittent duty versions of the battery
contactors (large surface area, low pressure).
The modern automotive contactor is a low area,
very high pressure connection. These CAN stick
but probably not if the battery is good. Too
many batteries are flogged until they don't
crank the engine any more . . . they've been
unsuited for use on an airplane for some period
of time before a soggy battery makes a 'soft closure'
of a contactor and causes it to stick.
> (if that ever happens as the starter is now a generator).
Doesn't happen. Every starter has a disconnect
mechanism that prevents a running engine from
back-driving the starter. Consider that a starter
armature runs at or near it's max horsepower rpm
while cranking an engine at ~200 rpm. An engine
running at 2000 rpm would drive a starter at 10x
it's rated running speed . . . throws windings
and/or tears up gearboxes.
> In the UK the authorities insist that a light is installed in the
> panel warning the pilot the starter remains energised, as there
> have been several accidents. The engaged starter saps a large
> amount of power from the engine and gets very hot, with unpleasant
> consequences.
Yes, the starter does continue to run from
due to applied electrical energy. These are
NOT efficient motors. They draw substantial
current even when no mechanically loaded. Given
their design goals for intermittent duty operation,
they simply cannot reject internal heat generated
while running unloaded
Keep the battery in good shape and starter
contactor sticking is very rare. Starter energized
light is a simple hedge against taxiing out with
a starter energized. Having a battery contactor
carry starter current is a pretty cheap insurance.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
Being able to pull the mixture control whilst on the ground will stop the
engine from producing power, but if the start motor is still energised due
to the failed contactor, won't it keep cranking until you pull a terminal
off the battery? I'm not that familiar with the starters used in aviation (I
hand-swing my engine), so am unsure if they have a disengage mechanism like
they do on cars.
Hi Etienne,
I'm not really sure either. But in any case it sounds manageable enough
(though maybe expensive if the starter motor gets wrecked) if one is on the
ground.
By the way I stuck a loop-type ammeter on the ground cable today and set it
to the MAX function and then got in and cranked away. I usually put the
electric fuel pump on for 10 seconds before I start the engine and it
usually starts immediately. This time I left the fuel pump off so I needed
to crank the engine four or five times before it started. The maximum
recorded current was 99.6 amps, i.e. 100A. Outside temp was 15C.
I'm thinking that my automotive 70A relay might even take this kind of
current if I decided to run the starter current through it since it's such a
short amount of time. Or I could mount two 70A relays in parallel (total
coil current would still only be 0.7 amps), but honestly I'm not sure it
would be worth the hassle. What do people think?
Sacha
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>
>I couldn't find anything there unfortunately. The starter motor just
>has one terminal for the fat positive wire.
Rotax starter doesn't have a contactor/solenoid
combo. Rotax uses a simple external contactor
to control power to the motor. The pinion gear
is extended inertially on spiral grooves cut into
the motor shaft.
Recommend you have either a battery contactor
or manually operated battery switch.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: CONTACT EXTRACTOR |
At 10:09 AM 11/3/2013, you wrote:
>
>Can someone give me the (working tip end)
>dimensions of the Bendix/King contact extraction
>tool p/n 047-05099-001 that is used to remove
>contacts p/n 030-01107-00xx as used on KT 76 and
>KX 155. Please =93 no guesses =93 I need a
>caliper on this one. I will be working under extremely difficult
conditions.
>
>Apparently, this tool is also known as Molex p/n HT-1884
>Thank you for your help.
How many terminals do you need to extract?
The tool size is not critical . . . it needs
to fit inside the width of the slot in the
connector housing and be no thicker than the
depth of the slot. It's a thin blade that
is used to depress the retention tang
on the pin.
Emacs!
Unless you have bunch of terminals to pull,
suggest you try a sewing needle inserted into
the center of the slot. The tang is only about
.4" inside and not hard to reach.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trusting a chargers reputation, what an idiot! |
At 07:55 AM 11/2/2013, you wrote:
>
>
> > the battery is 13.4 and the MGL Efis shows supply voltage as
> 12.9. I have checked all feeds and connectors, but cannot isolate
> the voltage drop....
>
>Subtracting 12.9 from 13.4 equals 0.5 volts which is the voltage
>drop across a diode. Is the MGL EFIS powered through an E-Bus
>diode? What happens when the E-Bus alternate feed path (if
>installed) is turned on?
>Joe
Excellent question!!!!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: CONTACT EXTRACTOR |
| From: | "racerjerry" <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
Bob, Thank you for your response. Fortunately, I have only two terminals to extract.
I was hoping to get measurements of the actual tool; especially the blade thickness,
so the contact would release easily, yet I wouldnt have to worry about permanently
deforming the retainer clip. Also, I dont have a spare Bendix/King
card edge connector body to give me the slot width, but I could probably guesstimate
that.
My idea was to cut a sliver of shim stock. Do YOU have a guess as to blade thickness
of this tool?
Yes, I may have to resort to the sewing needle approach, but I dont know if these
old eyes will be able to keep the needle centered in the slot. Besides, trying
different sizes, I can ruin only so many of my wifes sewing needles before
there is hell to pay.
Thanks again,
Jerry King
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412114#412114
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Jean" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trusting a chargers reputation, what an idiot! |
> the battery is 13.4 and the MGL Efis shows supply voltage as
>> 12.9. I have checked all feeds and connectors, but cannot isolate
>> the voltage drop....
Were you able to measure the voltage at the connector going
into the EFIS? If this measures at 13.4V, then you may have
a calibration error in your EFIS.
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: CONTACT EXTRACTOR |
At 02:11 PM 11/4/2013, you wrote:
>
>Bob, Thank you for your response. Fortunately,
>I have only two terminals to extract.
>I was hoping to get measurements of the actual
>tool; especially the blade thickness, so the
>contact would release easily, yet I wouldnt
>have to worry about permanently deforming the retainer clip.
There is possibility of 'flattening' the
clip even when the 'right tool' is used.
I always tweak the clip to increase it's
grip before re-inserting a used terminal
back into the housing.
> Also, I dont have a spare Bendix/King card
> edge connector body to give me the slot width,
> but I could probably guesstimate that.
I don't think I've ever actually measured one.
The last two that I made were fabricated from
flat spring stock cabbaged from a pocket tape
measure. I used a cutoff wheel in a Dremel to
sculpt the material.
Many moons ago I published this offering
Vhttp://tinyurl.com/nknv4bk
I believe these numbers were suited to
the various versions of this pin retention
methodology . . . but that was some time ago.
>Yes, I may have to resort to the sewing needle
>approach, but I dont know if these old eyes
>will be able to keep the needle centered in the
>slot. Besides, trying different sizes, I can
>ruin only so many of my wifes sewing needles before there is hell to pay.
Get your own needles. In fact, I think
sewing machine needles are about the right
thickness and they offer a 'handle' of sorts
on the machine end. Again, a little sculpting
with a Dremel would tailor them to the task.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CONTACT EXTRACTOR |
I find that one of my very small flat screwdrivers (watchmaker type)
often works well on these types of pins.
Ken
On 04/11/2013 6:50 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> At 02:11 PM 11/4/2013, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> Bob, Thank you for your response. Fortunately, I have only two
>> terminals to extract.
>> I was hoping to get measurements of the actual tool; especially the
>> blade thickness, so the contact would release easily, yet I wouldnt
>> have to worry about permanently deforming the retainer clip.
>
> There is possibility of 'flattening' the
> clip even when the 'right tool' is used.
> I always tweak the clip to increase it's
> grip before re-inserting a used terminal
> back into the housing.
>
>> Also, I dont have a spare Bendix/King card edge connector body to
>> give me the slot width, but I could probably guesstimate that.
>
> I don't think I've ever actually measured one.
> The last two that I made were fabricated from
> flat spring stock cabbaged from a pocket tape
> measure. I used a cutoff wheel in a Dremel to
> sculpt the material.
>
> Many moons ago I published this offering
>
> Vhttp://tinyurl.com/nknv4bk
>
> I believe these numbers were suited to
> the various versions of this pin retention
> methodology . . . but that was some time ago.
>
>
>> Yes, I may have to resort to the sewing needle approach, but I dont
>> know if these old eyes will be able to keep the needle centered in the
>> slot. Besides, trying different sizes, I can ruin only so many of my
>> wifes sewing needles before there is hell to pay.
>
> Get your own needles. In fact, I think
> sewing machine needles are about the right
> thickness and they offer a 'handle' of sorts
> on the machine end. Again, a little sculpting
> with a Dremel would tailor them to the task.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection
is active.
http://www.avast.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | When is 2AWG not 2AWG? |
I purchased some 2AWG welding cable from McMaster-Carr. But the 2AWG ring terminals
are too big. After trying all the ring terminals in my collection, the ones
that fit are for 4AWG.
Does welding cable have a smaller diameter than... regular wire?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412123#412123
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: When is 2AWG not 2AWG? |
At 07:51 PM 11/4/2013, you wrote:
>
>I purchased some 2AWG welding cable from McMaster-Carr. But the 2AWG
>ring terminals are too big. After trying all the ring terminals in
>my collection, the ones that fit are for 4AWG.
>
>Does welding cable have a smaller diameter than... regular wire?
The standard for sizing wire is predicated
on the cross-section of copper . . . so a
10AWG SOLID wire will be a tad smaller in
diameter than STRANDED wire due to the
included air-space between strands. As a
general rule, copper wires can be counted
on to be as-advertised. Aluminum wire has a
slightly higher resistance. Assuming that
it is marked for AWG equivalency, then a
2AWG aluminum wire would be decidedly larger
than it's copper cousin.
Terminals are another matter. You cannot
know the tooling for which the terminal was
designed . . . which may indeed bring a
'too big' terminal down to size with the
right squish. So pick the terminal with
the tightest practical fit and then close
the gap with wedges/solder or judicious
application of force.
The 'rating' for wire is more consistent
and reliable than the sizing of terminals.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: When is 2AWG not 2AWG? |
Thanks! :)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412126#412126
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trusting a chargers reputation, what an idiot! |
I run a wire direct from the Bat bus to the EFIS CB (2 amp) then via a
switch to the EFIS. Sooooo, thinking out loud, it can only be the CB or the
switch causing the voltage drop?
My master switch is one of those manual types recently discussed on the
list. All parts brand new, but worth checking! I imagine a .5v volt drop
across the master could turn exiting once the starter starts pulling 200
amps!
Best...
Bob Verwey
On 4 November 2013 21:20, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 07:55 AM 11/2/2013, you wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > the battery is 13.4 and the MGL Efis shows supply voltage as 12.9. I
>> have checked all feeds and connectors, but cannot isolate the voltage
>> drop....
>>
>> Subtracting 12.9 from 13.4 equals 0.5 volts which is the voltage drop
>> across a diode. Is the MGL EFIS powered through an E-Bus diode? What
>> happens when the E-Bus alternate feed path (if installed) is turned on?
>> Joe
>>
>
> Excellent question!!!!
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: CONTACT EXTRACTOR |
| From: | "racerjerry" <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
OK, I am armed. Wife gave me an assortment of different size sewing machine needles
(much better to not stab yourself with) and I also raided my collection
of jewelers screwdrivers. Now, if I could only see the back of the connector
to tell which wire is which
Bob & Ken, thank you very much for the tips.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412132#412132
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Trusting a chargers reputation, what an idiot! |
But are you measuring the voltage at the EFIS using the same voltmeter with
which you measured battery voltage? If you're simply depending on the EFIS
reading then it could simply be the difference in calibration between the
two instruments.
Bob McC
From: bob.verwey(at)gmail.com
Date: Tue=2C 5 Nov 2013 07:14:59 +0200
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Trusting a chargers reputation=2C what
an idiot!
I run a wire direct from the Bat bus to the EFIS CB (2 amp) then via a swit
ch to the EFIS. Sooooo=2C thinking out loud=2C it can only be the CB or the
switch causing the voltage drop? My master switch is one of those manual t
ypes recently discussed on the list. All parts brand new=2C but worth check
ing! I imagine a .5v volt drop across the master could turn exiting once th
e starter starts pulling 200 amps!=0A
=0A
Best...Bob Verwey
On 4 November 2013 21:20=2C Robert L. Nuckolls=2C III <nuckolls.bob@aeroele
ctric.com> wrote:
=0A
=0A
lls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
At 07:55 AM 11/2/2013=2C you wrote:
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
> the battery is 13.4 and the MGL Efis shows supply voltage as 12.9. I have
checked all feeds and connectors=2C but cannot isolate the voltage drop...
.
=0A
=0A
Subtracting 12.9 from 13.4 equals 0.5 volts which is the voltage drop acros
s a diode. Is the MGL EFIS powered through an E-Bus diode? What happens w
hen the E-Bus alternate feed path (if installed) is turned on?
=0A
Joe
=0A
=0A
=0A
Excellent question!!!!
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Bob . . .
=0A
=0A
=0A
om" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
=0A
ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
=0A
et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
=0A
et="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
=0A
"_blank">www.mrrace.com
=0A
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=0A
le=2C List Admin.
=0A
=0A
-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Li
st
=0A
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http://forums.matronics.com
=0A
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=0A
=0A
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=0A
=0A
=0A
============0A
============0A
============0A
============0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CONTACT EXTRACTOR |
Did the Aeroelectric list address change? Suddenly many of my messages from the
list are going to junk mail and are not being put into the proper folder.
The new address seems to be:
owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)xenia.matronics.com
what has occurred here? Did I miss something?
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: CONTACT EXTRACTOR
At 02:11 PM 11/4/2013, you wrote:
>
>Bob, Thank you for your response. Fortunately,
>I have only two terminals to extract.
>I was hoping to get measurements of the actual
>tool; especially the blade thickness, so the
>contact would release easily, yet I wouldnt
>have to worry about permanently deforming the retainer clip.
There is possibility of 'flattening' the
clip even when the 'right tool' is used.
I always tweak the clip to increase it's
grip before re-inserting a used terminal
back into the housing.
> Also, I dont have a spare Bendix/King card
> edge connector body to give me the slot width,
> but I could probably guesstimate that.
I don't think I've ever actually measured one.
The last two that I made were fabricated from
flat spring stock cabbaged from a pocket tape
measure. I used a cutoff wheel in a Dremel to
sculpt the material.
Many moons ago I published this offering
Vhttp://tinyurl.com/nknv4bk
I believe these numbers were suited to
the various versions of this pin retention
methodology . . . but that was some time ago.
>Yes, I may have to resort to the sewing needle
>approach, but I dont know if these old eyes
>will be able to keep the needle centered in the
>slot. Besides, trying different sizes, I can
>ruin only so many of my wifes sewing needles before there is hell to pay.
Get your own needles. In fact, I think
sewing machine needles are about the right
thickness and they offer a 'handle' of sorts
on the machine end. Again, a little sculpting
with a Dremel would tailor them to the task.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Burnaby" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
Innovation in the world of batteries. I love this stuff!
http://tiny.cc/jf625w
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
=0ADoes anyone have a picture showing a row of W58 series (reset-only)-ci
rcuit breakers w/ .250 quick connect terminalsand how the feed side was bus
sed?=0A=0AI can see using several quick connect terminals jumpered- toget
her but i'm curious about other more elegant solutions.=0A=0ATIA=0A=0A-Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rene Felker" <rene(at)felker.com> |
| Subject: | Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
No pictures.but copper bus bar across the terminals.
Rene' Felker
N423CF
801-721-6080
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Luckey
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 7:54 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bussing W58 Series Breakers
Does anyone have a picture showing a row of W58 series (reset-only) circuit
breakers w/ .250 quick connect terminals and how the feed side was bussed?
I can see using several quick connect terminals jumpered together but i'm
curious about other more elegant solutions.
TIA
-Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Copper Foil width for VOR antenna |
| From: | "p32gxy" <p32gxy(at)gmail.com> |
So ... the first thing I did was to establish a baseline... this would be the Vee
Dipole VOR antenna. With the folded balun. The antenna was tuned for best VSWR
in the VOR band... the attached pic shows what was accomplished... it is essentially
below 1:2... considering all the iron-mongery around the antenna...
good enough :-).
A more accurate tuning would be completed after the copper foil is glassed in...
that way the dielectric of the glass would also be compensated for.
The loop antennas to be experimented have to beat this to be worthy of consideration
for install... stay tuned... for the loop antennas...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412159#412159
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/vor_half_wave_vee_wing_install_tuned_rg400_w_balun_small_214.jpg
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | matronics servers have the flu |
It seems that the ISP that hosts Matt's Internet portal
did something dumb with their domain name servers. My
access to any features on matronics have been sketchy
at best. Matt's not getting very good answers from
the so-called 'service reps' . . .
I think we're in good hands . . . Matt's trying
to chase the rats out of the woodpile.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
At 06:53 PM 11/5/2013, you wrote:
>Does anyone have a picture showing a row of W58 series
>(reset-only) circuit breakers w/ .250 quick connect terminals and
>how the feed side was bussed?
>
>I can see using several quick connect terminals jumpered together
>but i'm curious about other more elegant solutions.
Keystone electronics makes a .250 wide
faston socket for use on etched circuit
boards. A bus-board could be fabricated
to accept a row of these clips spaced at
what ever matches your breaker layout.
Emacs!
This would make a very low parts count
bus-bar for fast-on tabbed breakers.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Network Issues At Matronics Last Few Days... |
Dear Listers,
Starting sometime on Friday November 1st, my Internet Service Provider (ISP) began "upgrading" their Domain Name Servers (DNS). DNS servers allow the resolution of computer names such as "www.matronics.com" to real addresses such as 64.81.74.3. This also impacts email delivery as well, since there is another layer of resolution that applies to email names.
Because of this upgrade on the part of my ISP, DNS service started getting unreliable
around Friday sometime, but I didn't notice it until sometime on Saturday.
When I used a tool called "nslookup" to test the resolution of name-to-address,
about 50-75% of the time my ISP's servers would response with an "SERVFAIL"
indicating that they didn't know the answer. I opened a ticket with the
ISP on Saturday, and by Sunday afternoon I had no feedback on the ticket so I
called in to support. "We upgrading the DNS servers, and it should back by Sunday
at 5pm." 5pm came and went with no resolution.
Well, long story short by Tuesday morning things were still not fixed and in fact
much worse. So, I opted to move all my DNS service to a different service
provider. I have a lot of DNS entries, so it took a while to get everything moved
over. It generally takes about 24 hours for a change like that to fully
propagate across the Internet which would be Wednesday morning sometime. I've
noticed that the Matronics web server traffic is picking up again, so many sites
have already propagated the new information.
I really should have just moved the DNS on Saturday when I first noticed the troubles,
but with stuff like this, you just keep believing that it gonna be fixed
any minute now.... And, in fact, that's what my ISP kept telling me...
Its always a giant bummer when stuff like this happens and particularly during
the Fund Raiser. I apologize to anyone that has tried to make a Contribution
in the last few days and had issues or was simply unable to connect. By the time
you read this email, the DNS should be fully propagated, and I ask that you
please try again.
The Contribution web site URL is:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or, you can send a personal check to the following address:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore, CA 94550
Thank you for your kind consideration and patience,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
Now, why didn't I think of that???=0A=0AI may have a few of those clips lef
t over from a previous project. Don't even need a circuit board, I could si
mply solder them to a brass strip to form a buss.=0A=0A=0AThx Bob, =0A=0A
=0A-Jeff=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "Robert L. Nu
ckolls, III" =0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matron
ics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, November 5, 2013 8:53 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElect
ric-List: Bussing W58 Series Breakers=0A =0A=0A=0AAt 06:53 PM 11/5/2013, yo
u wrote:=0A=0A=0ADoes anyone have a picture=0Ashowing a row of W58 series (
reset-only)- circuit breakers w/ .250=0Aquick connect terminals and how t
he feed side was bussed?=0A>=0A>I can see using several quick connect termi
nals jumpered- together=0Abut i'm curious about other more elegant soluti
ons.=0A>=0A=0AKeystone electronics makes a .250 wide=0Afaston socket for us
e on etched circuit=0Aboards.- A bus-board could be fabricated=0Ato accep
t a row of these clips spaced at=0Awhat ever matches your breaker layout.
=0A=0A=0A -=0A=0AThis would make a very low parts count=0Abus-bar for fas
t-on tabbed breakers.=0A=0A=0A=0A- Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
I think I'd like to give that a go too when I upgrade my current wiring. Can
a circuit board carry enough current though? The copper layers don't look
very thick. On the other hand, the brass strips that are found in home
electrical stores seem a bit oversized to the task.
Now, why didn't I think of that???
I may have a few of those clips left over from a previous project. Don't
even need a circuit board, I could simply solder them to a brass strip to
form a buss.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
Can a circuit board carry enough current though=3F The copper layers don't
look very thick. On the other hand, the brass strips that are found in h
ome electrical stores seem a bit oversized to the task.
Something I have found that works great is soft copper tubing. You can
purchase by the foot at your local hardware store. Take a 1/4=22 diameter p
iece and flatten gently with a hammer and it makes a great bus bar. If you
want to attach it to the CB's with screws you can drill holes and screw it
on or solder if you prefer. a similar method makes a nice forrest of tabs
for grounding.
Roger
--
Do you have a slow PC=3F Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfi
ghter=3Fcid=sigen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
At 06:53 PM 11/5/2013, you wrote:
Does anyone have a picture showing a row of W58 series
(reset-only) circuit breakers w/ .250 quick connect terminals and
how the feed side was bussed?
I can see using several quick connect terminals jumpered together
but i'm curious about other more elegant solutions.
Keystone electronics makes a .250 wide
FastOn socket for use on etched circuit
boards. A bus-board could be fabricated
to accept a row of these clips spaced at
what ever matches your breaker layout.
If you're really handy with sheet metal and
getting rows of holes accurately located, you
could fabricate from scratch . . .
Emacs!
Suggest you not try to bus more than 5 breakers
at once. The finished bus-bar needs to press-on/
pry-off of n-terminals all at once. Unless
I could locate the holes on a digitally indicated
milling machine, I'd probably go the etched
circuit board route. $60 will get you 3 boards
5 breakers long that can be sheared into 3
bus bars each. Enough material with precisely
located holes to neatly tie 45 breakers together
in groups of up to 5.
Have you bought the breakers? They are available
in screw terminal versions . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
At 02:09 PM 11/6/2013, you wrote:
>I think Id like to give that a go too when I
>upgrade my current wiring Can a circuit board
>carry enough current though? The copper layers
>dont look very thick. On the other hand, the
>brass strips that are found in home electrical
>stores seem a bit oversized to the task.
Yes, the number of breakers that can be fed
from one piece of double sided board won't
overheat it. You also connect the feeder
wire as close as practical to the center
so that copper clad is only 'feeding'
two breakers.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
At 01:49 PM 11/6/2013, you wrote:
>Now, why didn't I think of that???
>
>I may have a few of those clips left over from a previous project.
>Don't even need a circuit board, I could simply solder them to a
>brass strip to form a buss.
yes. you need to fixture them to be
VERY well aligned before soldering.
Normal to the buss surface and no
twisting of the breaker terminal.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
=0AThe nice thing about using 3 or 4 insulated quick connect terminals =0Al
ike this:=0A=0Ajumped together is that it makes the buss well insulated.-
There would be no exposed B+ or metal bar.- (For the purposes of this di
scussion lets call this a "jumper buss")=0A=0AWith a buss bar like the one
shown below we lose that insulation -- also could be difficult to work with
for several reasons: difficult to pry on and off, easily bend brass bar or
break circuit board, etc.=0A=0AWhat are the problems, issues, cons of a "j
umper buss"?=0A=0A=0A-Jeff=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A F
rom: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" =0ATo: aeroel
ectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, November 6, 2013 2:07 PM=0ASu
bject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bussing W58 Series Breakers=0A =0A=0A=0AAt 06
:53 PM 11/5/2013, you wrote:=0A=0ADoes anyone have a picture showing a row
of W58 series (reset-only)-=0Acircuit breakers w/ .250 quick connect term
inals and how the feed side=0Awas bussed?=0A=0AI can see using several quic
k connect terminals jumpered- together=0Abut i'm curious about other more
elegant solutions.=0A=0A=0AKeystone electronics makes a .250 wide=0AFastOn
socket for use on etched circuit=0Aboards.- A bus-board could be fabrica
ted=0Ato accept a row of these clips spaced at=0Awhat ever matches your bre
aker layout.=0A=0AIf you're really handy with sheet metal and=0Agetting row
s of holes accurately located, you=0Acould fabricate from scratch . . . =0A
=0A=0A=0A- Suggest you not try to bus more than 5 breakers=0A- at once.
The finished bus-bar needs to press-on/=0A- pry-off of n-terminals all a
t once.- Unless=0A- I could locate the holes on a digitally indicated
=0A- milling machine, I'd probably go the etched=0A- circuit board rout
e. $60 will get you 3 boards=0A- 5 breakers long that can be sheared into
3=0A- bus bars each. Enough material with precisely=0A- located holes
to neatly tie 45 breakers together=0A- in groups of up to 5.=0A=0A- Hav
e you bought the breakers? They are available=0A- in screw terminal versi
ons . . . =0A=0A- Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
At 08:29 PM 11/6/2013, you wrote:
>The nice thing about using 3 or 4 insulated quick connect terminals
>like this:
>[]
>
>
>jumped together is that it makes the buss well insulated. There
>would be no exposed B+ or metal bar. (For the purposes of this
>discussion lets call this a "jumper buss")
>
>With a buss bar like the one shown below we lose that insulation --
>also could be difficult to work with for several reasons: difficult
>to pry on and off, easily bend brass bar or break circuit board, etc.
>
>What are the problems, issues, cons of a "jumper buss"?
Technically not a 'buss' due to the
daisy chain of serial connections . . .
but lots of those breakers have
been wired that way. Probably not
high risk . . . but what's wrong
with a nice fuse-block?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Coming Soon - The List of Contributors - Please Make |
A Contribution Today!
Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message acknowledging everyone
that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its my way
of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation
for the Lists.
Please take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors
(LOC)! As a number of members have pointed out over the years, the List seems
at least as valuable a building / entertainment tool as your typical magazine
subscription!
Assure that your name is on this year's LOC! Show others that you appreciate the
Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your
Credit card or Paypal on the Secure Web Site:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps
these Lists going and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about
how the Lists have helped you!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com> |
| Subject: | Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
I do the same, however, the copper tube (I use the stuff that is used as
water pipes in houses) is hard drawn and slightly brittle. To get around
that I use a small blowtorch to heat it up until it glows red hot and then
let it cool in air. That anneals it and makes it softer and more resistant
to cracking and easier to form- like when you flatten it.
Jay
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of R. curtis
Sent: 06 November 2013 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bussing W58 Series Breakers
Can a circuit board carry enough current though? The copper layers don't
look very thick. On the other hand, the brass strips that are found in
home electrical stores seem a bit oversized to the task.
Something I have found that works great is soft copper tubing. You can
purchase by the foot at your local hardware store. Take a 1/4" diameter
piece and flatten gently with a hammer and it makes a great bus bar. If you
want to attach it to the CB's with screws you can drill holes and screw it
on or solder if you prefer. a similar method makes a nice forrest of tabs
for grounding.
Roger
_____
.
Do you have a slow PC? <http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen>
Try a free scan!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
C'mon guys, you can buy copper strip cut to size, and save yourself a lot
of hassle. Plus it looks better!
Best...
Bob Verwey
IO 470 A35 ZU-DLW
On 7 November 2013 12:27, Jay Hyde wrote:
> I do the same, however, the copper tube (I use the stuff that is used as
> water pipes in houses) is hard drawn and slightly brittle. To get around
> that I use a small blowtorch to heat it up until it glows red hot and the
n
> let it cool in air. That anneals it and makes it softer and more resista
nt
> to cracking and easier to form- like when you flatten it.
>
>
> Jay
>
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *R. curtis
> *Sent:* 06 November 2013 10:43 PM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Bussing W58 Series Breakers
>
>
> Can a circuit board carry enough current though? The copper layers don
=92t
> look very thick. On the other hand, the brass strips that are found in
> home electrical stores seem a bit oversized to the task.
>
>
> Something I have found that works great is soft copper tubing. You can
> purchase by the foot at your local hardware store. Take a 1/4" diameter
> piece and flatten gently with a hammer and it makes a great bus bar. If
> you want to attach it to the CB's with screws you can drill holes and scr
ew
> it on or solder if you prefer. a similar method makes a nice forrest of
> tabs for grounding.
>
>
> Roger
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> .
> SPAMfighter href="http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
">slow
> PC? Try a free scan!
>
>
> *www.aeroelectric.com <http://www.aeroelectric.com>*
>
> *www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.buildersbooks.com>*
>
> *www.homebuilthelp.com <http://www.homebuilthelp.com>*
>
> *www.mypilotstore.com <http://www.mypilotstore.com>*
>
> *www.mrrace.com <http://www.mrrace.com>*
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List *
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com *
>
> *
>
===========
m>
ldersbooks.com>
.com>
com>
om/contribution>
===========
www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
===========
===========
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
At 04:38 AM 11/7/2013, you wrote:
>C'mon guys, you can buy copper strip cut to size, and save yourself
>a lot of hassle. Plus it looks better!
>
I'll second that but with foundations in physics. Review
the articles on our website that cite the term "gas tight"
http://tinyurl.com/mjjl9dt
I'll remind Listers that connectivity-magic happens
when two conductors are held together with such force
and rigidity across compliant surfaces that (1) ingress
of moisture laden air and (2) relative motion between
conductors is prevented.
This design goal is the reason why round-wires and
terminals become decidedly un-round under the crush
of a crimped joint -OR- encapsulated in a cocoon of
metal in the soldered joint.
The most problematic joints in a wiring system are
installer-fabricated with poor regard for process.
Threaded fasteners are particularly needful of
attention to details of flatness, force and
rigidity.
This is why the fuse-blocks dropped onto B&C's
counter at OSH turned out to be a kind of
installer's dream for relief of worries about
knowledge and skill sets. First, the metal to
metal joints were minimized. All but the threaded
stud on the end of the assembly are manufactured
for integrity and service life. If the builder
can get a nice flat flag on an AMP terminal
cinched down on a 10-32 stud, probabilities for
very low risk and cost of ownership are good.
The circuit breakers under discussion are
suited to service in appliances and/or systems
were design goals call for protection of a single
feeder. But lining a bunch of them up on a panel
with some notion of bussing their supply terminals
is a mis-application of original design goals.
The technical definition of a buss is a conductive
structure ideally comprised of one piece of
metal from which numerous taps supply power to
various loads in the system with an architecture
that prevents any single failure from propagating
beyond the single feeder. Here's a collection
of pictures for a 'buss and breaker' structure
removed from a legacy Piper airplane . . .
http://tinyurl.com/lmbcm66
http://tinyurl.com/lucl439
http://tinyurl.com/myhmoew
The OBAM aviation builder-sphere is replete
with arguments against religious observation
of legacy design goals, "Well, the guy next
to me in the hanger has been flying this
(you fill in the blank) for years and hasn't
had a bit of trouble."
Given that our art is beginning its second
century of real-life application, there are
constellations of lessons-learned derived
from a distillation of proven recipes for
success re-enforced by understanding of the
physics upon which they're built.
Nobody stands over us with a rule book under
one arm and a citation book under the other . . .
but there ARE folks who we pay to worry that
would be glad to assume that role in our
craft. That event will mark the time when
innovation and exploration of new ideas will
slow to a crawl . . . if not halt completely.
We would do well to expand our understanding of
the arts and science while propagating it to
the greatest number of interested individuals.
There will always be those who don't find
value in this endeavor . . . most will survive
with little more than an elevated cost of
ownership and laundry soap for the underwear.
But a few will become candidates for trial in the Court
of Dark-n-Stormy Nights where the narrator
was not on board the airplane.
The short response is, "buy already mill-flat
materials from which to craft buss bars and
fat-terminal jumpers". It is the exceedingly
rare OBAM aviation shop that can take a round
piece of metal and achieve such flatness.
See: http://tinyurl.com/khymmf3
http://tinyurl.com/leunhah
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
There seems to be a typo on this ebay site. I don't think that one cubic
inch of copper weighs 4 pounds! ??
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48-oz-1-16-Flat-Copper-Sheet-Plate-4-x-4-/2711921244
76?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/48-oz-1-16-Flat-Copper-Sheet-Plate-4-x-4-/271192124
476?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f244f6c3c> &hash=item3f244f6c3c
Bill
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bussing W58 Series Breakers
At 04:38 AM 11/7/2013, you wrote:
C'mon guys, you can buy copper strip cut to size, and save yourself a lot of
hassle. Plus it looks better!
I'll second that but with foundations in physics. Review
the articles on our website that cite the term "gas tight"
http://tinyurl.com/mjjl9dt
I'll remind Listers that connectivity-magic happens
when two conductors are held together with such force
and rigidity across compliant surfaces that (1) ingress
of moisture laden air and (2) relative motion between
conductors is prevented.
This design goal is the reason why round-wires and
terminals become decidedly un-round under the crush
of a crimped joint -OR- encapsulated in a cocoon of
metal in the soldered joint.
The most problematic joints in a wiring system are
installer-fabricated with poor regard for process.
Threaded fasteners are particularly needful of
attention to details of flatness, force and
rigidity.
This is why the fuse-blocks dropped onto B&C's
counter at OSH turned out to be a kind of
installer's dream for relief of worries about
knowledge and skill sets. First, the metal to
metal joints were minimized. All but the threaded
stud on the end of the assembly are manufactured
for integrity and service life. If the builder
can get a nice flat flag on an AMP terminal
cinched down on a 10-32 stud, probabilities for
very low risk and cost of ownership are good.
The circuit breakers under discussion are
suited to service in appliances and/or systems
were design goals call for protection of a single
feeder. But lining a bunch of them up on a panel
with some notion of bussing their supply terminals
is a mis-application of original design goals.
The technical definition of a buss is a conductive
structure ideally comprised of one piece of
metal from which numerous taps supply power to
various loads in the system with an architecture
that prevents any single failure from propagating
beyond the single feeder. Here's a collection
of pictures for a 'buss and breaker' structure
removed from a legacy Piper airplane . . .
http://tinyurl.com/lmbcm66
http://tinyurl.com/lucl439
http://tinyurl.com/myhmoew
The OBAM aviation builder-sphere is replete
with arguments against religious observation
of legacy design goals, "Well, the guy next
to me in the hanger has been flying this
(you fill in the blank) for years and hasn't
had a bit of trouble."
Given that our art is beginning its second
century of real-life application, there are
constellations of lessons-learned derived
from a distillation of proven recipes for
success re-enforced by understanding of the
physics upon which they're built.
Nobody stands over us with a rule book under
one arm and a citation book under the other . . .
but there ARE folks who we pay to worry that
would be glad to assume that role in our
craft. That event will mark the time when
innovation and exploration of new ideas will
slow to a crawl . . . if not halt completely.
We would do well to expand our understanding of
the arts and science while propagating it to
the greatest number of interested individuals.
There will always be those who don't find
value in this endeavor . . . most will survive
with little more than an elevated cost of
ownership and laundry soap for the underwear.
But a few will become candidates for trial in the Court
of Dark-n-Stormy Nights where the narrator
was not on board the airplane.
The short response is, "buy already mill-flat
materials from which to craft buss bars and
fat-terminal jumpers". It is the exceedingly
rare OBAM aviation shop that can take a round
piece of metal and achieve such flatness.
See: http://tinyurl.com/khymmf3
http://tinyurl.com/leunhah
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
| From: | Bill <wtrooper(at)gmail.com> |
I disagree with letting it "cool in air" *unless* the alloys of copper
water-pipe and spark-plug gaskets differ significantly which I doubt*.*
As a fledgling A&P in 1973 we were taught to heat copper spark-plug gaskets
to "cherry red" and *quench immediately in water*.
I admit having no experience with allowing the gaskets to cool in air.
Here's an EAA demo:
http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=57437956001
Respectfully -
Bill
SF bay area
> On 7 November 2013 12:27,
> you
> wrote:
>
>> I do the same, however, the copper tube (I use the stuff that is used as
>> water pipes in houses) is hard drawn and slightly brittle. To get around
>> that I use a small blowtorch to heat it up until it glows red hot and then
>> let it cool in air. That anneals it and makes it softer and more resistant
>> to cracking and easier to form- like when you flatten it.
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
At 09:08 AM 11/7/2013, you wrote:
>There seems to be a typo on this ebay site. I don't think that one
>cubic inch of copper weighs 4 pounds! ??
>
><http://www.ebay.com/itm/48-oz-1-16-Flat-Copper-Sheet-Plate-4-x-4-/271192124476?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f244f6c3c>http://www.ebay.com/itm/48-oz-1-16-Flat-Copper-Sheet-Plate-4-x-4-/271192124476?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f244f6c3c
>
>Bill
>
That's an unfortunate citation. In the time
before etched circuit boards, copper was rated/sold
by gage and/or thickness times some dimension
that described area. Then came copper clad ecb
materials where somebody thought it was a good
idea to speak to the thickness of copper not in
terms of thickness but in some new convention
like 'ounces per square foot'.
It's a close cousin to logic that speaks of 'circular
mil area' of a wire. A 10AWG solid wire is 102 mils
in diameter with a real cross section of
3.14 x (.051)^2 = 0.00816 square inches. 10AWG
said to have a CMA of 102^2 or 10,400 'circular
mils'. It's 'handier' to rate current density in
a wire in Amps per CMA . . . it's a discipline
specific vernacular for folks who work with wires
a lot . . . but it bugs a physicist.
The ounces per square foot are easier to measure/verify
than the actual thickness of the copper where
1 ounce per square foot is 1.344 mils.
Copper has a density of 5.168 oz/cu-in. So a
sheet of copper 1" square and ".001344" thick
will have weight of 5.168 x 0.001344 = .006945
oz/sq-in x 144 = 1.000 oz/sq foot.
Getting back to the eBay ad, we have .062"
thick for 0.323 oz/sq-in x 144 = 46.5
oz/sq-ft. Hence the citation for "48 oz"
copper . . . a description that would be
meaningless to guys who do copper gutters
and flashing . . . or buss bars in airplanes.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
I disagree with letting it =22cool in air=22 unless the alloys of copper wate
r-pipe and spark-plug gaskets differ significantly which I doubt.
Air cooling of the cherry red hot copper will anneal it, however it wil
l anneal to a softer state if you quench the copper in water.
Roger
--
Do you have a slow PC=3F Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfi
ghter=3Fcid=sigen
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
| From: | William Mills <wtrooper(at)gmail.com> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Copper sheet specs redux |
I've had some direct emails asking about the selection
of copper sheet for fabrication of bus bars. It seems
that copper is sold in a market that adopted the Birmingham
guage system as opposed to the Brown and Sharp tables
common to the brass and aluminum markets. Then there's
the stainless steel guys who have their own tables
. . . sigh . . .
This excerpt from a copper sheet gauge table
illustrates the reason why our calculated weight
earlier this morning was a bit different than
the cited weight in the Ebay ad. The "48 oz"
copper being offered was indeed a couple mils
thicker than 1/16" thus explaining the difference.
Emacs!
When bussing breakers the maximum loads you might
see on a bus bar can't be more than alternator
rating. Assume 60A alternator. 10AWG wire example
I cited earlier this morning has a cross section
of 0.0082 sq-in. 10AWG round wire will produce
a 10C rise with 30A of current flowing in it.
If ALL alternator current is fed to the center
of a one-piece bus bar and equally distributed
to half the bus on each side, then the bus carries
30 A max, probably much less.
A 16 Gauge copper buss bar (.065" thick) 1/2"
wide has a copper cross section of .065 x .5 or
0.032 square inches. This is 4x larger than a
10AWG wire so we can expect temperature rise to
be no more than 2.5 degrees C.
Run all the current to one end of the bus bar
such that the whole 60A flows through the copper.
Heating value rises by the square of current. So
2x current is 4x heat or 4x temperature rise so
we're back up to 10C max at end where the feeder
is attached.
The nice thing is that flat copper sheet will reject
heat better than a round wire so the expected rise
will be LESS than the round wire equivalent.
Now, consider the same, 0.064" copper jumped between
two contactor FAT wire terminals. Let's make the jumper
1" wide for 1/2 the resistance per inch of the bus bar
example above. So 60A of alternator current would bring
our rise down to 5C. Hit it with a 200A starter current
for 3x current, 9x rise and the strip of copper could
be expected to rise about 50C during cranking. But it's
got more area than wire and is heat-sinked to the studs
on either end so the heating will be less than 50C. Even
less considering that most cranking intervals are but
a few seconds . . . too short for the rise to stabilize.
This little exercise suggests that .065" copper in 1/2"
wide strips is just fine behind the panel . . . and 1"
strips is okay between contactors, probably no more
marginal for heat rejection than the starter itself. A
piece of 1/8" copper would drop the 50C rise to 25C at
200A in 10AWG wire equivalents . . . MUCH more headroom.
One could fabricate a thicker contactor-jumper from
two layers of 1/16" copper. Get all the joints bright
and clean. Torque the fasteners down tight. All will
be right with the universe.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
Hmmm,
Your A&P school had it wrong. With pure copper, such as spark plug
gaskets it makes zero difference whether you quench or not.
Other metals are very different, but copper does not need quenching.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_%28metallurgy%29
Quenching with most metals makes it harder, not softer. Copper again is
an exception where quenching doesn't harden, but it doesn't soften either.
On 11/7/2013 10:03 AM, Bill wrote:
> I disagree with letting it "cool in air" */unless/* the alloys of
> copper water-pipe and spark-plug gaskets differ significantly which I
> doubt*.*
> *
> *
> As a fledgling A&P in 1973 we were taught to heat copper spark-plug
> gaskets to "cherry red" and */quench immediately in water/*.
> I admit having no experience with allowing the gaskets to cool in air.
>
> Here's an EAA demo:
> http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=57437956001
>
> Respectfully -
> Bill
> SF bay area
>
> On 7 November 2013 12:27,
> you
> wrote:
>
> I do the same, however, the copper tube (I use the stuff that
> is used as water pipes in houses) is hard drawn and slightly
> brittle. To get around that I use a small blowtorch to heat
> it up until it glows red hot and then let it cool in air.
> That anneals it and makes it softer and more resistant to
> cracking and easier to form- like when you flatten it.
>
> *
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
| From: | Bill <wtrooper(at)GMAIL.COM> |
Hi Kelly -
Likely it was a time consideration: quench instantly in water rather than
gradually in air.
BTW, water quenching wasn't learned in school. As a "fledgling A&P" I was a
graduate, licensed and employed at an FBO/Repair Station (water quenching
learned here). No matter, both systems work equally well. As I said
initially below; "I admit having no experience with allowing the gaskets to
cool in air". Now I know TWO systems.
Thanks for the input -
Bill
On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 6:38 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> kellym(at)aviating.com>
>
> Hmmm,
> Your A&P school had it wrong. With pure copper, such as spark plug gaskets
> it makes zero difference whether you quench or not.
> Other metals are very different, but copper does not need quenching.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_%28metallurgy%29
> Quenching with most metals makes it harder, not softer. Copper again is an
> exception where quenching doesn't harden, but it doesn't soften either.
>
> On 11/7/2013 10:03 AM, Bill wrote:
>
>> I disagree with letting it "cool in air" */unless/* the alloys of copper
>> water-pipe and spark-plug gaskets differ significantly which I doubt*.*
>> *
>> *
>> As a fledgling A&P in 1973 we were taught to heat copper spark-plug
>> gaskets to "cherry red" and */quench immediately in water/*.
>> I admit having no experience with allowing the gaskets to cool in air.
>>
>> Here's an EAA demo:
>> http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=57437956001
>>
>> Respectfully -
>> Bill
>> SF bay area
>>
>> On 7 November 2013 12:27,
>> you
>> wrote:
>>
>> I do the same, however, the copper tube (I use the stuff that
>> is used as water pipes in houses) is hard drawn and slightly
>> brittle. To get around that I use a small blowtorch to heat
>> it up until it glows red hot and then let it cool in air.
>> That anneals it and makes it softer and more resistant to
>> cracking and easier to form- like when you flatten it.
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bussing W58 Series Breakers |
Sure. I maintain enough extra gaskets that I put fresh ones on, the
anneal the old ones at my leisure. I just string them on some old safety
wire, heat, then let cool and they are ready for next plug servicing.
On 11/7/2013 8:23 PM, Bill wrote:
> Hi Kelly -
>
> Likely it was a time consideration: quench instantly in water rather
> than gradually in air.
>
> BTW, water quenching wasn't learned in school. As a "fledgling A&P" I
> was a graduate, licensed and employed at an FBO/Repair Station (water
> quenching learned here). No matter, both systems work equally well. As
> I said initially below; "I admit having no experience with allowing
> the gaskets to cool in air". Now I know TWO systems.
>
> Thanks for the input -
> Bill
>
> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 6:38 PM, Kelly McMullen > wrote:
>
> >
>
> Hmmm,
> Your A&P school had it wrong. With pure copper, such as spark plug
> gaskets it makes zero difference whether you quench or not.
> Other metals are very different, but copper does not need
> quenching. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_%28metallurgy%29
> Quenching with most metals makes it harder, not softer. Copper
> again is an exception where quenching doesn't harden, but it
> doesn't soften either.
>
> On 11/7/2013 10:03 AM, Bill wrote:
>
> I disagree with letting it "cool in air" */unless/* the alloys
> of copper water-pipe and spark-plug gaskets differ
> significantly which I doubt*.*
> *
> *
> As a fledgling A&P in 1973 we were taught to heat copper
> spark-plug gaskets to "cherry red" and */quench immediately in
> water/*.
> I admit having no experience with allowing the gaskets to cool
> in air.
>
> Here's an EAA demo:
> http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=57437956001
>
> Respectfully -
> Bill
> SF bay area
>
> On 7 November 2013 12:27,
> you
> wrote:
>
> I do the same, however, the copper tube (I use the
> stuff that
> is used as water pipes in houses) is hard drawn and
> slightly
> brittle. To get around that I use a small blowtorch
> to heat
> it up until it glows red hot and then let it cool in
> air. That anneals it and makes it softer and more
> resistant to
> cracking and easier to form- like when you flatten it.
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> ===================================
> om" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
> ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
> et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
> et="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
> "_blank">www.mrrace.com
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> le, List Admin.
> ===================================
> -List"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> ===================================
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
>
>
> *
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
Recommend you have either a battery contactor
or manually operated battery switch.
Yup, sounds like a good idea. For what it's worth there is an aircraft at
my local field which uses the same automotive "cube" 70A relay that I'm
using as a battery contactor. His engine is a Rotax 912 (the certified
version although his a/c is not TC being of his own custom design). I
measured the peak startup current this morning and it came to 110A, but the
automotive relay seems to take this in its stride. The owner told me he's
been running that way for 500 hours and 8 years without any problem.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 07:29 AM 11/8/2013, you wrote:
>
> Recommend you have either a battery contactor
> or manually operated battery switch.
>
>Yup, sounds like a good idea. For what it's worth there is an aircraft at
>my local field which uses the same automotive "cube" 70A relay that I'm
>using as a battery contactor. His engine is a Rotax 912 (the certified
>version although his a/c is not TC being of his own custom design). I
>measured the peak startup current this morning and it came to 110A, but the
>automotive relay seems to take this in its stride. The owner told me he's
>been running that way for 500 hours and 8 years without any problem.
The plastic 'cube' relays I've seen all feature
fast-on tabs. The 70A versions too albeit larger
ones. How do you make wired connections to this
relay with robustness capable of carrying starter
current? Can you take some pictures of the installations
and post them?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)GMAIL.COM> |
On Nov 9, 2013, at 3:46, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectri
c.com> wrote:
> The plastic 'cube' relays I've seen all feature
> fast-on tabs. The 70A versions too albeit larger
> ones. How do you make wired connections to this
> relay with robustness capable of carrying starter
> current? Can you take some pictures of the installations
> and post them?
Yes the Faston tabs are 3/8" instead of the regular 1/4". Here's a pic I too
k yesterday but its not easy to see how the connections are made on the cube
.
Sacha
Note that he appears to be using something (on the left) that looks to me li
ke a battery contactor in lieu of a starter contactor. The master contactor i
s the red "384" series cube on the right.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... |
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Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Minimizing audio interference |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I was going to post on VansAirforce in a thread about audio strobe noise, but decided
to post here first to make sure that my post is accurate and correct.
Let me know if it's not.
Thanks, Joe
Whenever current from separate loads shares the same conductor (wire or metal airframe),
the current from one load can affect the current from another load.
The interference can be minimized by:
1. Keeping the shared conductors as short as possible
2. Increasing the wire size of the shared conductor
3. Do not share a conductor with more than one load.
4. Keep the positive and negative conductors of the offending circuit together
and twisted.
If the microphone jack is not isolated from ground with insulating washers, then
part of the mic current flows though the airframe which also carries current
from other aircraft loads. This violates rule 3 above. The mic circuit is
especially vulnerable because its signal gets amplified.
If the strobe uses the airframe for the negative current path, this also violates
rule 3 above. It is better to power the strobe with twisted positive and
negative wires instead of using the airframe for the negative conductor.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412627#412627
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Minimizing audio interference |
At 07:59 AM 11/10/2013, you wrote:
I was going to post on VansAirforce in a thread about audio strobe
noise, but decided to post here first to make sure that my post is
accurate and correct. Let me know if it's not.
Thanks, Joe
Whenever current from separate loads shares the same conductor (wire
or metal airframe), the current from one load can affect the current
from another load. The interference can be minimized by:
1. Keeping the shared conductors as short as possible
Generally speaking, the only conductors that
might be shared by an antagonist and potential
victim are grounds . . . and grounding a victim
onto a location already polluted with antagonistic
perturbations is easily avoided with attention to
the architecture of the ground system. See Figure Z-15
2. Increasing the wire size of the shared conductor
Better yet . . . do not share . . .
3. Do not share a conductor with more than one load.
. . . high on the list of design goals for the
elegantly crafted airframe.
4. Keep the positive and negative conductors of the offending circuit
together and twisted.
Twisting speaks to magnetic coupling between antagonistic
stimulus and potential victims. This coupling mode is
weak. Further, it's unlikely that one finds it mechanically
advantageous to route the wires for antagonists (generally
airframe bundles) along with wires belonging to potential
victims . . . generally situated on the panel.
If the microphone jack is not isolated from ground with insulating
washers, then part of the mic current flows though the airframe which
also carries current from other aircraft loads. This violates rule 3
above. The mic circuit is especially vulnerable because its signal
gets amplified.
Yes
If the strobe uses the airframe for the negative current path, this
also violates rule 3 above. It is better to power the strobe with
twisted positive and negative wires instead of using the airframe for
the negative conductor.
Not a great sin . . . the BIG guys ground nasty
loads to airframes all the time. It's easy to craft
TWO ground systems wherein the second is attentive to
risks to potential victims.
Noises from strobe systems heard on headphones and/or
transmitted signals are almost always conducted by
virtue of poor grounding choices for audio system
wiring and rarely, radiated noises from strobe tubes into
the co-located antennas. Wingtip mounted comm and vor antennas
share this risk.
Some avionics not designed in the spirit and intent
of DO160 suggestions for immunity to bus noises may
also exhibit vulnerability to strobes or other sources.
This condition calls for adding filters to the victim's
14v supply.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Minimizing audio interference |
> 3. Do not share a conductor with more than one load.
>
> . . . high on the list of design goals for the
> elegantly crafted airframe.
Am I right in assuming that this refers to properly
fused wires from one of the busses and does not
include the fat wires wich carry most if not all the
loads in the aircraft.
Roger
--
Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Minimizing audio interference |
At 10:52 AM 11/10/2013, you wrote:
3. Do not share a conductor with more than one load.
. . . high on the list of design goals for the
elegantly crafted airframe.
Am I right in assuming that this refers to
properly fused wires from one of the busses and does
not include the fat wires wich carry most if not all
the loads in the aircraft.
Obviously, everything in the airplane
requiring power and ground will have
a lot of conductors in common.
It's known that some accessories tend to
be antagonists (high currents, noisy,
trashy voltage transients, strong RF
emitters, etc.) while other things tend
to be potential victims (stuff that processes
tiny signals).
We're getting off into the weeds with the
'shared conductors' terminology. When it comes
to power distribution, all things
electric 'share' conductors with each other.
DO-160 or similar qualification protocols suggest
means by which the most vulnerable of victims
can get power from the noisiest of busses with
little risk of difficulty.
99% of noise problems are founded on
a very limited range of installation issues
NONE of which have to do with twisting feeders,
co-location of coax cables in wire bundles,
or failure to include any sort of 'filter' on
either a victim or antagonist . . .
We've discussed the high order probabilities for
noise in either transmitted or received signals
when victim grounds that should be centralized
on the panel get tied down somewhere else.
A second order risk is seen when levels of
transmitted RF rise to unusual levels in the
vicinity of tha panel. This condition can present
when the antenna is too close to the equipment
installed . . . or a coax shield has detached
in a connector causing the entire feedline to
become a radiator.
"Shared conductors" is not a good way to talk
about a noise issue. You have a victim, an
antagonist and a PROPAGATION MODE. Breaking
the propagation mode is the path to noise-free
Nirvana.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Minimizing audio interference |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
> "Shared conductors" is not a good way to talk
> about a noise issue.
What if we say that audio signals should not share conductors with other loads?
An audio signal is unlikely to share a positive 12 volt wire. But many audio
signals use ground as a common path in their circuit. A problem arises when
other loads share the same ground conductor as the audio circuit.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412669#412669
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Minimizing audio interference |
At 09:46 PM 11/10/2013, you wrote:
>
>
> > "Shared conductors" is not a good way to talk
> > about a noise issue.
>
>What if we say that audio signals should not share conductors with
>other loads? An audio signal is unlikely to share a positive 12
>volt wire. But many audio signals use ground as a common path in
>their circuit. A problem arises when other loads share the same
>ground conductor as the audio circuit.
>Joe
"Audio signals" are not "loads". All devices
in the airplane share a common 12v supply bus.
Eventually, ALL grounds come together too.
Study up on the 'ground loop' phenomenon illustrated
in part here.
http://tinyurl.com/6w87rvb
The design task is to re-ground those devices
marked
Emacs!
such that their shared grounds do not inject
noises. Everybody needs a ground that's
ultimately common with all other grounds.
It's WHERE the grounds are placed and
how they come together that produces the
recipe for success.
In the targets we used to build at Beech
there were three ground systems. Power,
analog and digital. Just as everything
comes to ground at the forest of tabs in
Figure Z-15, so too did all the grounds
in the target come to a common point in the
power distribution box . . . but what happened
to them along the way determines their
probability of offering in ingress point
for noise into a potential victim.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | A List Contribution - It's Your Personal Squelch Button... |
There is an automatic "squelch button" of sorts for the Fund Raiser messages.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Minimizing audio interference |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I like it that Z15-3.1 shows not only the right way, but also the wrong way to
ground devices. I understand that earphones and microphones should not be grounded
locally, but should only be grounded at the panel end (intercom or radio).
I am a little confused with the engine sensors. Grounding might be different
for different types of sensors and their display (EMS or steam gauge). Some
sensors are grounded automatically by nature of their construction and mounting.
But for sensors that have isolated ground, I assume that the ground wire
should terminate at the EMS or display device and not at the engine case. Of
course always follow the manufactures installation instructions.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412750#412750
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Matronics Email Disruption Fixed... |
Dear Listers,
Starting around midnight this morning 11/11/13, the Matronics Barracuda spam filter
that receives all incoming email from the Internet, developed a problem and
started rejecting all incoming
email. I just got off the phone with the Barracuda technical support and we have
If you have posted to any of the Lists during this time, you will need to resend
your email to the respective List.
My apologies for the disruption!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | How does the Cessna Ground pwr socket work? |
Gents
Just to be sure on how the Cessna (3-lug) ground power socket works:
I followed figure Z-31A, where the third and thinner lug is connected to one
of the contactor coil's terminal.
Where does that thinner lug on the Cessna female socket gets power to
energize the contactor's coil?
Thanks
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Minimizing audio interference |
At 08:30 AM 11/11/2013, you wrote:
>
>I like it that Z15-3.1 shows not only the right way, but also the
>wrong way to ground devices. I understand that earphones and
>microphones should not be grounded locally, but should only be
>grounded at the panel end (intercom or radio).
> I am a little confused with the engine sensors. Grounding might
> be different for different types of sensors and their display (EMS
> or steam gauge). Some sensors are grounded automatically by nature
> of their construction and mounting.
Yes. Many oil pressure, oil temperature, CHT, EGT sensors are
guilty of 'local grounding' . . . and for the manner in which they
were originally intended to be used . . . it didnt' matter.
> But for sensors that have isolated ground, I assume that the
> ground wire should terminate at the EMS or display device and not
> at the engine case. Of course always follow the manufactures
> installation instructions.
Oh, absolutely. But absent a end-to-end design goal,
one has to play the DIY integration game. One useful
way to deal with a locally grounded signal source
looks like this:
Emacs!
There are low cost integrated circuits that do the
task of making remote voltage measurements across
hostile environments. Alternatively, one can take all
grounds for the instrument to the crankcase. The same
game is played in audio systems. I did the specification
for design of an intercom system on the Lears that
coupled all stations together by way of a transformer
coupled, twisted pair . . . Intercoms scattered about
the airplane could be grounded locally for power and
control without the worry of noises on the ground-
differences finding their way into the audio.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How does the Cessna Ground pwr socket work? |
At 12:22 PM 11/11/2013, you wrote:
>
>
>Gents
>
>Just to be sure on how the Cessna (3-lug) ground power socket works:
>
>I followed figure Z-31A, where the third and thinner lug is connected to one
>of the contactor coil's terminal.
>
>Where does that thinner lug on the Cessna female socket gets power to
>energize the contactor's coil?
>
>Thanks
>Carlos
That ground power connector has been around
for a very long time . . . it dates back to
WWII or earlier. The latest version MS3506
http://tinyurl.com/nc6ybc3
replaced the earlier version AN2552 back in
the 60s
http://www.pilotshop.rs/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/128
The 'skinny' pin is smaller because it's not intended
to carry much current . . . generally no more than what's
needed to close the ground power contactor in the airplane.
It's very robust for that current level because ground
power jacks on an airplane take a beating . . . a contact
physically sized for 2A or so wouldn't last long in the
all-weather flight-line fast-moving-line-boy environment.
The real 'magic' of this pin is based on its length.
It's shorter than the other two. As you push a hot plug
into the jack, the two current carrying pins are electrically
engaged before the pilot pin . . . this means that the
power pins cannot be loaded before they are engaged
for carrying the load. Similarly, when you pull the plug,
the pilot pin will break first, open the ground power
contactor and prevent arcing at the power pins should
they happen to be loaded at the break.
Next time you're at an FBO and can take a peek
at their ground power plug . . . I think every one
I've seen had blackened and arc-pitted power contacts.
No doubt damaged by hot-plugging or hot-disconnecting
under load where the supported vehicle did not have
a ground power contactor.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How does the Cessna Ground pwr socket work? |
>
>
>Where does that thinner lug on the Cessna female socket gets power to
>energize the contactor's coil?
Oops!! . . . didn't answer the question. The pilot
pin is often jumpered to the (+) power pin right
next to it. In some cases, the ground power source
control panel wants to manage the ground power
contactor in the vehicle so a 3rd wire is
brought back to the source for extra attention.
In any case, the pilot pin gets + voltage from the same
source as the adjacent power pin.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | How does the Cessna Ground pwr socket work? |
Thanks Bob
Both explanations were welcome.
Got the general idea and the trick of the designer.
Best
Carlos
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: segunda-feira, 11 de Novembro de 2013 22:19
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How does the Cessna Ground pwr socket work?
-->
>
>
>Where does that thinner lug on the Cessna female socket gets power to
>energize the contactor's coil?
Oops!! . . . didn't answer the question. The pilot
pin is often jumpered to the (+) power pin right
next to it. In some cases, the ground power source
control panel wants to manage the ground power
contactor in the vehicle so a 3rd wire is
brought back to the source for extra attention.
In any case, the pilot pin gets + voltage from the same
source as the adjacent power pin.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Replacement Crimpers |
| From: | "Bill_Higdon" <willard561(at)aol.com> |
Bob,
I need to replace my long serving Paladin crimpers, not due to wear, rather someone
else decided they needed them more than I do. One of my criteria for the
replacement is the use of field swappable dies. Having read your writings on crimpers
for use with the common wire terminals Id like your opinion on the following
dies the first one the Sargent 4100-40 is the leader in my opinion
http://www.stanleysupplyservices.com/sargent-4100-40-insulated-terminal-die-set-10-22awg-double-crimp/p/685-440
The following 2 are both in the same class as far as I can see, and not quite to
the standard of the Sargent. They are the AMP BM-534
http://www.automationdirect.com/static/specs/dinwiring.pdf
and the Paladin PA2035 die set
http://www.tessco.com/products/displayProductInfo.do?sku=420434&eventPage=1
Thanks,
Bill Higdon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412861#412861
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Minimizing audio interference |
Bob N, for us neophytes, please enlighten us on the triangular device in
your sketch.
Best...
Bob Verwey
IO 470 A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW
On 11 November 2013 21:05, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 08:30 AM 11/11/2013, you wrote:
>
>
> I like it that Z15-3.1 shows not only the right way, but also the wrong
> way to ground devices. I understand that earphones and microphones should
> not be grounded locally, but should only be grounded at the panel end
> (intercom or radio).
> I am a little confused with the engine sensors. Grounding might be
> different for different types of sensors and their display (EMS or steam
> gauge). Some sensors are grounded automatically by nature of their
> construction and mounting.
>
>
> Yes. Many oil pressure, oil temperature, CHT, EGT sensors are
> guilty of 'local grounding' . . . and for the manner in which they
> were originally intended to be used . . . it didnt' matter.
>
> But for sensors that have isolated ground, I assume that the ground
> wire should terminate at the EMS or display device and not at the engine
> case. Of course always follow the manufactures installation instructions.
>
>
> Oh, absolutely. But absent a end-to-end design goal,
> one has to play the DIY integration game. One useful
> way to deal with a locally grounded signal source
> looks like this:
>
> [image: Emacs!]
> There are low cost integrated circuits that do the
> task of making remote voltage measurements across
> hostile environments. Alternatively, one can take all
> grounds for the instrument to the crankcase. The same
> game is played in audio systems. I did the specification
> for design of an intercom system on the Lears that
> coupled all stations together by way of a transformer
> coupled, twisted pair . . . Intercoms scattered about
> the airplane could be grounded locally for power and
> control without the worry of noises on the ground-
> differences finding their way into the audio.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Minimizing audio interference |
I believe that is an Op Amp - see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_amplifier
Jay
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Verwey
Sent: 12 November 2013 09:43 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Minimizing audio interference
Bob N, for us neophytes, please enlighten us on the triangular device in
your sketch.
Best...
Bob Verwey
IO 470 A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW
On 11 November 2013 21:05, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
At 08:30 AM 11/11/2013, you wrote:
I like it that Z15-3.1 shows not only the right way, but also the wrong way
to ground devices. I understand that earphones and microphones should not
be grounded locally, but should only be grounded at the panel end (intercom
or radio).
I am a little confused with the engine sensors. Grounding might be
different for different types of sensors and their display (EMS or steam
gauge). Some sensors are grounded automatically by nature of their
construction and mounting.
Yes. Many oil pressure, oil temperature, CHT, EGT sensors are
guilty of 'local grounding' . . . and for the manner in which they
were originally intended to be used . . . it didnt' matter.
But for sensors that have isolated ground, I assume that the ground wire
should terminate at the EMS or display device and not at the engine case.
Of course always follow the manufactures installation instructions.
Oh, absolutely. But absent a end-to-end design goal,
one has to play the DIY integration game. One useful
way to deal with a locally grounded signal source
looks like this:
Emacs!
There are low cost integrated circuits that do the
task of making remote voltage measurements across
hostile environments. Alternatively, one can take all
grounds for the instrument to the crankcase. The same
game is played in audio systems. I did the specification
for design of an intercom system on the Lears that
coupled all stations together by way of a transformer
coupled, twisted pair . . . Intercoms scattered about
the airplane could be grounded locally for power and
control without the worry of noises on the ground-
differences finding their way into the audio.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Meredith" <msmeredith(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Ground Wire Routing; Compass Issues |
Bob and Listers,
Here's a question for the group from a new guy. It's
prompted by the recent discussion (and couple of weeks ago) about minimizing
radio noise and compass deviation. What is the best routing for the ground
wire from my instrument panel forest of tabs to the firewall single point
ground?
Airplane is a modified open cockpit 1951 DeHavilland Super
Chipmunk (IO-540) rebuilt over the past 4 years. For the configuration
think Pitts S-2C: radio stack between the rear seat pilot's knees, VFR
round gages with a handful of electric instruments and a (planned) mini-iPad
portable mounted on the sidewall. Firewall forward is pure Pitts clone.
The new electrical system is pretty much finished (I hope!) except for
neatening up and securing the wire bundles. System was tested incrementally
and everything worked first try except an issue with the electric compass
noted below. I stuck exactly to the Z-11 architecture and have followed
the Connection and discussion among this group for a couple of years.
Pretty much every component is B&C (with lots of great installation guidance
from TJ).
Wire routing: I put the main and e-bus fuse blocks under
the radio/xponder with a big wire bundle running vertically up to the panel
then fanning out to instruments and switches via 18-22 AWG wires. Battery,
contactors, regulator and single point ground are at the firewall about 6
feet forward of the rear instrument panel and radio stack/fuse blocks.
Component location and wire bundle routing (either left, right or
centerline) from the firewall to the rear cockpit were aimed to keep
everything shortest from point A to point B. Radio and transponder antenna
coax run aft centerline from the radio stack under the control stick and
pilot's seat, bundled with the power wires for the lights, strobes, fuel
pump and a remote compass detector. The lights, strobes and fuel pump are
the only devices grounded locally; everything else grounds at the firewall.
My main question is about the 6 AWG panel ground wire: it
runs from the forest of tabs behind the right side of the panel, up the
right sidewall then under the floor to the firewall ground. It's WIDELY
separated from the 6 AWG main power wire that runs straight down the middle
from the battery contactor to the fuse blocks between the pilot's knees.
Was that routing a bad decision?
A possible rerouting to ensure a clean radio and minimal
compass deviation (I may not always have the portable GPS): collocate/twist
together the 6 AWG ground fat wire with the 6 AWG main power wire running
fuselage center. To do so, I'd need to run a new and longer ground wire
from the right side of the panel via the bundle of small power and ground
wires to centerline, then down to the radio stack/fuse blocks where it can
join up with the 6 AWG main power wire, then forward under the centerline
floor to the firewall.
Question is prompted by this helpful info from Sacha a
couple of weeks back:
". if they're kept very close together (eg by twisting) then as long as you
are at a distance D away from
the pair, where D is much greater than d, then the magnetic field
becomes
very small. Typically d is of the order of a few millimeters so if
you're eg
a meter away, then D is hundreds of times greater than d and the
magnetic field
is for all intents and purposes zero."
"D" for my routing of panel wires is about 3 inches behind
the wet compass and remote compass indicator. There are lots of small
ground wires mixed in with power wires in this bundle; some wires go to the
switches and instruments and some to the ground forest of tabs. Would it
help to just wrap the wet compass and remote detector with shielding and
leave wire routing as is?
The electric compass indicator is fed from a remote detector
(flux valve? don't know) behind the pilot's head far from anything else
electrical. It's not a gyro, just an indicator. It had negligible
deviation and worked fine before the rebuild. Have not tested deviation now
because the airplane is still on blocks in a steel hangar. But when powered
up the indicator has a steady oscillation left and right about 10 degrees,
about once per second..if it doesn't settle out when I get the airplane out
in the open then I have another problem. Unfortunately for the compass I
installed a steel rollover bar behind the pilot's head close to the remote
detector, knowing I was likely introducing a compass problem but scored the
rollbar as priority. Well, now it's time to think about the compasses.
Perhaps I can move the remote detector farther away from the rollbar but
it's old, big (5-6 inch diameter cylinder) and heavy so space and balance
are issues. Perhaps I could buy a new and lightweight remote compass system
but would rather keep the current functioning system.
I have one more unrelated question but I'll save that for
another email. I've appreciated the expertise of the group over the past
couple of years of reading the conversations, and thank you in advance for
your suggestions!
Mark Meredith
Super Chipmunk N7DW
(Google "Super Chipmunk Restoration" for pics/story of the rebuild and
airplane's interesting history)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Minimizing audio interference |
At 03:43 AM 11/12/2013, you wrote:
>I believe that is an Op Amp ' see
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_amplifier
>
>Jay
>
>http://www.matni.com/Arabic/Elec-Info/LM741%20DETAILS/philk2w.j
>
Jay is correct. The "operational amplifier" has a rich
history in the evolution of electronics. Check out
the articles on Wikipedia about George Philbrick,
Bob Widlar, Jim Williams, and Bob Pease just to
name a few of the colorful pioneers of the electronic
arts and sciences.
The op-amp comes in many flavors and sizes tailored
to a constellation of tasks. I cut my op-amp teeth about
1962 on this vacuum tube version that sold for a couple hundred
dollars in 2013 money . . .
Emacs!
http://www.matni.com/Arabic/Elec-Info/LM741%20DETAILS/philk2w.j
I doubt that there were more than a few dozen
products available.
The last op-amp I stuck to a board looked like
a little brick of plastic about the size of a match
head . . .
Emacs!
. . . and costs about $2. The Digikey site offers
over 30,000 variations on the theme. We've come
a long way baby . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Replacement Crimpers |
At 08:46 PM 11/11/2013, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>I need to replace my long serving Paladin
>crimpers, not due to wear, rather someone else
>decided they needed them more than I do. One of
>my criteria for the replacement is the use of
>field swappable dies. Having read your writings
>on crimpers for use with the common wire
>terminals Id like your opinion on the
>following dies the first one the Sargent 4100-40 is the leader in my opinion
I'm not really in a position to offer useful
information on the various products. I've
evaluated a few tools and compared with the
performance of my $high$ Amp crimpers . . . and
found most to be satisfactory alternatives.
I started to look at exchangeable die-sets
a few years back but the cost of serviceable
complete tools was so low that the idea of making
one handle do lots of jobs wasn't very attractive.
Further, the costs of loose die-sets is driven
by volume of sales . . . seems that die-sets
could easily approach the cost of a complete
tool!
Sorry I can't be more helpful . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: wiring assistance |
At 02:48 PM 11/12/2013, you wrote:
Bob,
know this a long shot but i need assistance to finish wiring my
Glasair. i am hoping you know someone over this way that i could
contact. i was told that Greg Richter has done this sort of thing
but i have been unable to contact him. had a guy who was supposed to
assist me but he is too busy now. according to him i am only about
6 working hours away from being finished but i can't get him
back. i am located in the middle of South Carolina.
basically what needs to b done to finish the install is 6 circuit
breakers and connect, finish the transponder harness (it's 90%
done), finish the audio panel harness (it's 85% done), wire the new
electric tach, rehookup the old engine instruments, and calibrate the
new GRT Hxr w/autopilot.
the airplane has now been down 5 months which is absolutely
ridiculous. any direction and guidance would be most appreciated.
thanks.
Wince Holliday
N745CW
Wince, I am not personally aware of anyone in your
neighborhood who might be helpful . . . I've posted
your query to the aeroelectric-list. Perhaps someone
on the list can help or knows somebody who can.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Please Make A List Contribution Today; Some Nice Comments... |
Dear Listers,
I've been getting some very nice comments from Listers along with their List Support
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Page <jpx(at)qenesis.com> |
| Subject: | Carling G-Series switch configuration |
Here is the link to the Carling G-Series toggle switch data:
http://www.carlingtech.com/sites/default/files/documents/Carling-TS-G-Series-Ext.pdf
I find the switching descriptions unclear.
I believe a 2GH51-73 is a standard toggle switch, with quick connect
terminals that operates as an AeroElectric 2-10. Can anyone confirm
that ?
And how would the 2GG switch actually operate ?
Thanks,
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Carling G-Series switch configuration |
At 09:42 PM 11/13/2013, you wrote:
>
>Here is the link to the Carling G-Series toggle switch data:
>http://www.carlingtech.com/sites/default/files/documents/Carling-TS-G-Series-Ext.pdf
>
>I find the switching descriptions unclear.
>
>I believe a 2GH51-73 is a standard toggle switch, with quick connect
>terminals that operates as an AeroElectric 2-10. Can anyone confirm
>that ?
The 2GH switch is form, fit and function equivalent
to the 2-10 switch. Carling just has a funny (?)
way of describing it's operation which should be
simply described as 2-pole, on-on-on, progressive
transfer.
Emacs!
The isn't clear as to which of the 6 tab positions
on the switch are populated. I'm thinking that a
2GG switch is a 2GH with three of the six tabs simply
left off. Another variation on the theme is the
2GE switch having only 4 tabs . . . two are jumpered
together to fabricate a SP3T operation out of the
box. My guess says you can do any of these three
functions using a GH switch with simple choices
of how the terminals are wired (or not).
I wrote to them about this probably 20 years
ago . . . no response.
Hmmm . . . maybe they did respond and just didn't
tell me about it. Just found this document on Carling
that
http://tinyurl.com/mxv8g2l
This document confirms the suppositions cited
above.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Trim motor speed control |
I have two trim motors that I need to control. The motors provided are 24v motors
(3-5amps). But they are intended for with a 12v electrical system. This is
done because the 12v motors on a 12v system turn too fast and you keep overshooting
when you try to adjust the trim.
This is the elevator trim motor.
http://www.grainger.com/product/WARNER-LINEAR-Linear-Actuator-18G685?s_pp=false
But my electrical system is 24v. Which means the motors will turn too fast. I looked
for 48v versions and they're either too expensive or not available at all.
So I'm going to have to slow down the existing motors. And to that end, I
have come up with 3 possibilities:
1) Put in a DC-DC step down converter. I can get one for about $250. But it is
a rather large box that I'll have to mount somewhere and put in the necessary
breakers and wiring. I may need 14v for other things in the future so this wouldn't
be the worst solution.
http://www.lonestaraviation.com/Step-Down-Conveter-24V-to-13.8-Volts.html
2) I had picked up a motor speed controllers for the heater fan speed controller.
But it's only $10! You know the old saying about something being too good
to be true?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009HKFAIQ/ref=pe_385040_30332190_pe_175190_21431760_M3T1_ST1_dp_1
3) Finally, I could get a dedicated trim motor controller. But I would need their
"HD" version and I would need two them... at $245 each for a $490 total.
http://www.tcwtech.com/safety_trim.html
I've pretty much removed option #2 because I have to think that there's this $10
solution either generates noise, is unreliable, or... something else.
So the question(s) are: Does anyone have any experience with a situation like this
and if so, which path did you chose? Or does anyone have any opinions on which
would be the best solution? And finally, is there an option that I haven't
considered? (and changing my entire electrical system to 14v is NOT an option)
:)
Thanks,
Don
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=413041#413041
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Trim motor speed control |
| From: | Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> |
I would call TCW. I sent my Firgelli linear actuator (pitch trim) to them for approval.
It was rated well over his specification, but in this application never
sees much of a load. He approved it and it I'm using it now.
I would recommend his trim controller for just the stuck trim switch over ride
protection alone. Speed control is also available and 2 speeds if you want that.
I'm not sure if they work with 28 v systems.
Tim
> On Nov 14, 2013, at 9:45 AM, "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com> wrote:
>
>
> I have two trim motors that I need to control. The motors provided are 24v motors
(3-5amps). But they are intended for with a 12v electrical system. This is
done because the 12v motors on a 12v system turn too fast and you keep overshooting
when you try to adjust the trim.
>
> This is the elevator trim motor.
> http://www.grainger.com/product/WARNER-LINEAR-Linear-Actuator-18G685?s_pp=false
>
> But my electrical system is 24v. Which means the motors will turn too fast. I
looked for 48v versions and they're either too expensive or not available at
all. So I'm going to have to slow down the existing motors. And to that end,
I have come up with 3 possibilities:
>
> 1) Put in a DC-DC step down converter. I can get one for about $250. But it is
a rather large box that I'll have to mount somewhere and put in the necessary
breakers and wiring. I may need 14v for other things in the future so this wouldn't
be the worst solution.
> http://www.lonestaraviation.com/Step-Down-Conveter-24V-to-13.8-Volts.html
>
> 2) I had picked up a motor speed controllers for the heater fan speed controller.
But it's only $10! You know the old saying about something being too good
to be true?
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009HKFAIQ/ref=pe_385040_30332190_pe_175190_21431760_M3T1_ST1_dp_1
>
> 3) Finally, I could get a dedicated trim motor controller. But I would need
their "HD" version and I would need two them... at $245 each for a $490 total.
> http://www.tcwtech.com/safety_trim.html
>
> I've pretty much removed option #2 because I have to think that there's this
$10 solution either generates noise, is unreliable, or... something else.
>
> So the question(s) are: Does anyone have any experience with a situation like
this and if so, which path did you chose? Or does anyone have any opinions on
which would be the best solution? And finally, is there an option that I haven't
considered? (and changing my entire electrical system to 14v is NOT an option)
:)
>
> Thanks,
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=413041#413041
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim motor speed control |
At 11:45 AM 11/14/2013, you wrote:
I have two trim motors that I need to control. The motors provided
are 24v motors (3-5amps). But they are intended for with a 12v
electrical system. This is done because the 12v motors on a 12v
system turn too fast and you keep overshooting when you try to adjust the trim.
This is the elevator trim motor.
http://www.grainger.com/product/WARNER-LINEAR-Linear-Actuator-18G685?s_pp=false
First, why such a 'horse' of an actuator?
What are the force, speed and travel requirements
for moving the trim mechanism on your airplane?
But my electrical system is 24v. Which means the motors will turn too
fast. I looked for 48v versions and they're either too expensive or
not available at all. So I'm going to have to slow down the existing
motors. And to that end, I have come up with 3 possibilities:
With a full load current rating of 2.3A (assuming
that it's moving a 100# load), your voltage
control task is pretty simple. But with a PM motor,
inrush current is pretty high compared to the 2.3A
max running load.
1) Put in a DC-DC step down converter. I can get one for about $250.
But it is a rather large box that I'll have to mount somewhere and
put in the necessary breakers and wiring. I may need 14v for other
things in the future so this wouldn't be the worst solution.'
How about this one?
Rated for 8A (plenty of headroom) but
in addition to an adjustable output voltage
(controls speed) there's an adjustable
current limit (controls inrush).
Use this dc/dc converter upstream of your
dpdt center off polarity control switch.
Set voltage for max desired speed. Then
set the current limit to some benign value
well above max rated load for the actuator . . .
say 3A.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim motor speed control |
Emacs!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim motor speed control |
Don,
Agree with the others about the heftiness of your actuators. 100 pounds and
4 inch travel sounds like something for a jet. Finding a lower current
actuator would ease your problem.
But assuming you can't change actuators, here is a full featured 2 axis trim
controller:
Start with the circuit published in the June 2013 issue of Kitplanes
(schematic attached).
Modify the circuit to use an LM338 (40 volt, 5 amp, 7 amp surge, $2.03 from
Mouser) instead of the LM317 shown.
Power the low current logic part of the circuit with a separate regulator
(LM317) set to supply 12 volts. The heat sink specified is more than
adequate for both jobs.
This gives you all the features of the fanciest commercial controllers for
less than $35 in parts.
If you do not have access to the Kitplanes issue email me off list for a set
of figures, photos and text.
Tom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim motor speed control |
My link to the suggested power supply
didn't paste . . . her 'tis again.
> How about this one?
http://tinyurl.com/mk6vs4l
> Rated for 8A (plenty of headroom) but
> in addition to an adjustable output voltage
> (controls speed) there's an adjustable
> current limit (controls inrush).
>
> Use this dc/dc converter upstream of your
> dpdt center off polarity control switch.
> Set voltage for max desired speed. Then
> set the current limit to some benign value
> well above max rated load for the actuator . . .
> say 3A.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>-----
>No virus found in this message.
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | re: wire routing |
>
>
> "D" for my routing of panel wires is about 3 inches
> behind the wet compass and remote compass indicator. There are
> lots of small ground wires mixed in with power wires in this
> bundle; some wires go to the switches and instruments and some to
> the ground forest of tabs. Would it help to just wrap the wet
> compass and remote detector with shielding and leave wire routing as is?
Most of the situation you describe does not
raise concerns for large effects on a compass
except wires routed within inches of the
wet compass. While still inside the hangar, you
probably can't gage the effects of these wires.
You will probably have to wait until you get outside.
The magnitude and direction of interference
will vary with orientation of the fuselage
. . . i.e. compass 'heading'.
Back in the old days of panel mounted radios
with harnesses carrying perhaps 5A, it was
not uncommon to see several degrees of error
injected onto a compass reading when a radio was turned
ON/OFF. An SD-20 alternator on the back of an engine
had enough external field leakage to deflect the
magnetic compass 10-15 degrees on some headings.
That was 'fixed' with moving the compass from
a point on the glare shield onto the windshield.
Just raising the compass 12" or so reduced the
effects to 'acceptable'.
There's no way to accurately predict deleterious
effects for the situation you describe . . . it's
a try-it-and-see situation.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Trim motor speed control |
>
> > This is the elevator trim motor.
> > http://www.grainger.com/product/WARNER-LINEAR-Linear-Actuator-18G685?s_pp=false
>
>
> First, why such a 'horse' of an actuator?
> What are the force, speed and travel requirements
> for moving the trim mechanism on your airplane?
>
One word... Canard. :D
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=413053#413053
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim motor speed control |
Don,
<< why such a 'horse' of an actuator? ... One word... Canard. >>
Must confess to still being confused. My Defiant had very light control
forces which were still heavier than any Eze I've seen. Assume you are
planning to use springs and not aerodynamic trim tabs? Could you supply
more information?
Tom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Make Sure You're Listed! List of Contributors Published |
in December!
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Thank you!
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Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Trim motor speed control |
The aircraft is a Velocity XL. The trim motor is the one supplied by the factory.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=413138#413138
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Trim motor speed control |
The aircraft is a Velocity XL. The trim motor is the one supplied by the factory.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=413139#413139
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Carling G-Series switch configuration |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
2GH _ _ _ _CIRCUIT 1 ON_ _ _ _2 CIRCUITS ON_ _ _ _ CIRCUIT 2 ON
2GG _ _ _ 2 CIRCUITS ON _ _ _ CIRCUIT 1 ON _ _ _ OFF
The above is quoted from the Carlingswitch data sheet.
I interpret this to mean that 2GH is always on, either circuit 1 or circuit 2 is
on, or both are on.
And 2GG is similar to the 2-10 switch. It can be off, or circuit 1 on, or both
circuits 1 & 2 on.
It is hard to know for sure without having the switch in hand.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=413141#413141
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Trim motor speed control |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Motor Speed Control--
An important point of trim motor speed controlling is that the torque should not
be reduced when the speed is reduced (in fact, it could go up...but not down).
This makes regular voltage controllers undesirable except where torque isn't
an issue.
The second point is that trim speed should usually be reduced as a function of
airspeed. Often this is critical and can give the pilot sudden difficulties. Tee-ing
off the pitot line and using the pressure signal is easy to do.
Many speed controls use an LM3524 modulating PWM chip and a P-fet to drive the
trim motor that will take a voltage-input based on the pitot pressure. This makes
the motor go faster at slow speeds and slower at high speeds. No input from
the pilot is needed.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=413143#413143
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Switch S700 2-11 |
| From: | "Mike M" <mjwings(at)msn.com> |
Bob,
I am looking for a switch that has three potions (Off/On/On). B&C has a switch
S700 2-11 which is shown as On/On/Off but does not have a diagram which shows
how this switch is wired. Can you provide a schematic of this switch?
Mike Marker
--------
Mike Marker
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=413150#413150
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim motor speed control |
11/15/2013
Hello Don, Thanks for the quick response. I=92ve got the picture. Take a
look at the Firgelli Automations FA-SC24 Actuator Speed Controller seen
here:
http://www.firgelliauto.com/product_info.php?cPath=99&products_id=362
Note the the 12V to 40V operating range.
OC
====
From: Don Johnston
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: Trim motor speed control
Owen,
Thanks for reaching out to me.
The aircraft is a Velocity-XL. I am trimming a canard-width elevator. I
have been told by the factory and other builders that existing trim is
right at the upper limit of usable speed. The trim motor is connected to
a fiberglass leaf spring.
Fon
Sent from my Android mobile device.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch S700 2-11 |
At 10:42 AM 11/15/2013, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>I am looking for a switch that has three potions (Off/On/On). B&C
>has a switch S700 2-11 which is shown as On/On/Off but does not have
>a diagram which shows how this switch is wired. Can you provide a
>schematic of this switch?
What are you trying to do? You can wire an on-on-on
to be off/on/on by simply leaving one terminal
unused.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim motor speed control |
At 07:56 AM 11/15/2013, you wrote:
>
>Motor Speed Control--
>
>An important point of trim motor speed controlling is that the
>torque should not be reduced when the speed is reduced (in fact, it
>could go up...but not down). This makes regular voltage controllers
>undesirable except where torque isn't an issue.
Not true. Speed and torque are not directly related
in terms of motor performance. Speed of a motor is a
function of terminal voltage AND load on the motor.
Torque requirement for moving a flight control surface
is a function of aero-dynamic loads. For example, the
average torque needed to extend a flap from 0-10
degrees is often a small fraction of that required to
push it all the way out to 30 degrees.
Assuming one wishes to slow flap motion as it approaches
fully deployed, there is risk of having the motor STALL
under some conditions of load . . . the risk is a function
of motor resistance and a REDUCTION in available torque
at voltages intended to simply slow it down. It has NOTHING
to do with the manner in which voltage is controlled. You
can set the terminal voltage of the motor by means of regulated
power supply, battery, PWM controller, variable resistor,
you name it. As long as you're holding the motor voltage
constant, then it's possible to experience an unintended
STALL which is illustrated in the following plot of
an exemplar motor's performance in a pitch trim actuator.
Emacs!
Folks that would like to explore all the details of
my assertion are invited to download the data package
at http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Motors
The figure above is an excerpt from one of the figures
in that data package. In high speed trim, applied voltage
was 26.5 volts which means that for ALL other conditions,
the motor speed can be predicted right off the plots.
Aerodynamic loads reflected to the motor ranged from .72 oz-in
to 1.82 oz-in. With high speed voltage applied, the motor
can be expected to run someplace between 3870 and 5304 rpm
for a variation of +/- 16%.
With low speed voltage applied, the same motor's speed
variance from center was predicted to be +/- 100
percent . . . with the motor stalling at max loads.
The data package speaks to the characterization of
motor stall current as (Eapplied-Ecemf)/Resistance
of the motor. Motors being operated at FIXED voltages
appear to 'lose torque' because their speed regulation
is terrible compared to the higher speed operation.
Note that torque-current demand on the motor at say 1.5 oz-in
is exactly the same irrespective of speed (applied
voltage). The motor appears 'crippled' because the SAME
variations in current (CAB) over designed torque range
is a LARGER PERCENTAGE of motor's predictable
behavior at the lower speed (FDE).
Virtually ALL voltage control methodologies popular
with the OBAM aviation community are simply modifications
to applied voltage. The seemingly 'crippled' behavior
of the motor will be the same no matter HOW that
voltage is adjusted. LM317, pwm . . . you pick it.
There ARE ways to close the loop on speed control
by sensing motor current and inserting a derived
correction of speed by increasing terminal voltage
as load increases . . . or by sensing motor speed
with some form of tachometer and closing the loop
on measured speed.
Assertions for expecting loads on a motor to
go UP as shaft speed goes down are incorrect,
the flight surface has no way to know that it's
moving slower . . . it IS influenced only by change
of dynamic pressure and moment arms.
>The second point is that trim speed should usually be reduced as a
>function of airspeed. Often this is critical and can give the pilot
>sudden difficulties. Tee-ing off the pitot line and using the
>pressure signal is easy to do.
I've designed a number of pitch trim controllers.
The first two went on the Lear 55 and the second
was a fleet retrofit to the 30 series. I
proposed a continuously variable pitch trim rate
based on IAS but it proved unnecessary. Trim rates
optimized for cruising flight fell into one fairly
narrow range, speeds for approach to landing in another
narrow range. Turns out that approach:cruise trims
in the Lear systems were 4:1 ratio. Use a flaps-not-stowed
switch to select high speed and we were done.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim motor speed control |
At 11:46 AM 11/15/2013, you wrote:
>11/15/2013
>
>Hello Don, Thanks for the quick response. I've got the picture. Take
>a look at the Firgelli Automations FA-SC24 Actuator Speed Controller seen here:
>
><http://www.firgelliauto.com/product_info.php?cPath=99&products_id=362>http://www.firgelliauto.com/product_info.php?cPath=99&products_id=362
>
>Note the the 12V to 40V operating range.
Note also the notation:
The FA-SC24 is intended to control the speed of one Linear actuator
or motor, Do not connect two actuators/motors to the same FA-SC24.
The slowest the actuator/motor will run is about 10% of the full
speed. Reducing the speed can affect the maximum load the actuator can move.
Motor current is proportional to load torque
at any speed. There will come a time as voltage
falls that STALL torque (Eapplied/Resistance of
Motor) is some number smaller than load torque
and the motor stalls.
The load torque doesn't rise because the speed
went down; ability to CARRY rated torque fell
off because stall current came down proportionally
with the drop in applied voltage.
If we could wind the motor with unobtainium having
zero resistance, the speed torque curve would not
have that left-to-right, downward slope . . . it would
be flat. This means that speed is absolutely locked
to applied voltage no matter what load is applied.
The same motor would be 100% efficient because it
doesn't get hot!
I've worked with designs that deliberately picked
a too-large motor with lower values of internal
resistance just to get a flatter speed-torque
curve without use of external electronic controls.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Switch S700 2-11 |
| From: | "Mike M" <mjwings(at)msn.com> |
Bob,
I want to wire my electronic ignition switch such that to can select the Main or
Aux battery bus (Off/Aux Bus/Main Bus). The drawing depicts what I'm thinking.
I'm not sure that the S700 2-11 is internally wired as depicted...that is
why I asked for clarification on the switch configuration.
I also want to use this switch for a pulsed landing light (Off/On Steady/Pulsed)
Mike Marker
--------
Mike Marker
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=413171#413171
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ign_sw_184.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch S700 2-11 |
At 03:08 PM 11/15/2013, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>I want to wire my electronic ignition switch such that to can select
>the Main or Aux battery bus (Off/Aux Bus/Main Bus). The drawing
>depicts what I'm thinking. I'm not sure that the S700 2-11 is
>internally wired as depicted...that is why I asked for clarification
>on the switch configuration.
>
>I also want to use this switch for a pulsed landing light (Off/On
>Steady/Pulsed)
The S700-2-10 switch can be wired for single
pole three postion as shown below . . . just leave
the lower throw terminal (3)unhooked and you
get the desired behavior.
Emacs!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery contactor failure |
| From: | "anthonyharding" <anthonyharding41(at)gmail.com> |
Often this is a great time to install Battery Master Switch...Well then the main battery starter cable through the car is Dead after start up....So i gives a better suggestion you can used the well batteries and you can found the well shop at : http://www.johnslittlegadgetstore.com.au/.. Thanks..
--------
anthony harding
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=413193#413193
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Switch S700 2-11 |
| From: | "Mike M" <mjwings(at)msn.com> |
Thanks Bob! I made several failed attempts to figure out how to wire the S700
2-10 switch to perform desired function...but you drawing makes it obvious. So
I'll be using the 2-10.
Mike Marker
--------
Mike Marker
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=413201#413201
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch S700 2-11 |
At 09:37 AM 11/16/2013, you wrote:
>
>Thanks Bob! I made several failed attempts to figure out how to
>wire the S700 2-10 switch to perform desired function...but you
>drawing makes it obvious. So I'll be using the 2-10.
The 2-11 nomenclature is not carried over from
the mil-specs like the other dash numbers. I think
B&C added this callout to describe one of the
variants of the 2-10 . . . which are fundamentally
unnecessary since the 2-10 can be wired to accomplish
the same tasks.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Fund Raiser Behind By 25% - Please Contribute Today! |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Thomas Blejwas <tomblejwas(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Questions about Z-08 |
Bob,=0A-=0AIn the postings on running an alternator without a battery, yo
u suggested I consider your new draft Z-08, which is buried in the long str
eam on "EXP 2 Bus workaround."- The more I look at Z-08, the more I like
the simplicity.- It seems to meet most of my design goals, but answers to
a few questions would be helpful.=0A-=0A1.- What were your criteria in
deciding to connect "Engine A" with a switch (1-3) and "Engine B" through
a relay?- By the way, what does the "K2" inside a green hexagon indicate
on the relays?=0A-=0A2.- You show both A and B connected to the "Motive
Power Distribution Bus"-through a single stud and bolt connector.- I'v
e read that lock washers do little to prevent a bolt from loosening.- Wha
t do you do to give this type of connection the reliability one needs for c
ritical components?- Or can we?- Wouldn't a different connection for A
and B-be prudent?-=0A-=0A3.- With respect to screw type connectors,
what about the ground connection to the-engine block?- The high vibrat
ion of a running engine would seem to make these especially susceptible to
loosening.- What about two block connections going to two brass bolts thr
ough the firewall ground bus, or would this set up an electrically noisy gr
ound loop?=0A-=0A4.- I found your discussions about single versus dual
batteries and properly maintaining batteries to be interesting.- Since, a
s I mentioned in an earlier post, I've experienced a car battery shorting w
hile I was driving.- I accurately interpreted the limited info and stoppe
d the car in a convenient place.- Yes, the battery did not get the kind o
f attention you have suggested.- But will the next owner of my plane be a
s conscientious as me?- So, what is the downside of changing the DC Power
Master from OFF/BAT/BAT+ALT to OFF/ALT/ALT+BAT, assuming that ALT FIELD ca
n be disconnected if the alternator needs to be disconnected?- If I did s
o, I would use an MGL Battery Monitor to see both voltage and current acros
s the battery.=0A-=0AI appreciate your approach to challenging people lik
e me to think through our decisions.- Great forum?- Thanks.=0A=0ATom=0A
=0AThomas E. Blejwas=0A12 Via Entrada=0ASandia Park, NM 87047=0A505-286-929
4=0Atomblejwas(at)yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Trim motor speed control |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
EMJ said: An important point of trim motor speed controlling is that the torque
should not be reduced when the speed is reduced (in fact, it could go up...but
not down). This makes regular voltage controllers undesirable except where torque
isn't an issue.
BN said: Not true. Speed and torque are not directly related in terms of motor
performance. Speed of a motor is a function of terminal voltage AND load on the
motor.
EMJ said: Thats absurd and examples are so trivial I wont even bother to note one.
Besides, I didnt say they were related. The point is that motor speed for
trimming and flaps should be reduced at high airspeed to prevent overstressing
the pilot and the aircraft. This is common practice. I didnt invent this idea.
Furthermore reducing the voltage is a poor mans way to reduce the speed of any
actuator. I didn't invent that idea either.
BN said: Torque requirement for moving a flight control surface is a function of
aero-dynamic loads. For example, the average torque needed to extend a flap
from 0-10 degrees is often a small fraction of that required to push it all the
way out to 30 degrees.
Folks that would like to explore all the details of my assertion are invited to download the data package at http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Motors ....
Virtually ALL voltage control methodologies popular with the OBAM aviation community
are simply modifications to applied voltage.
EMJ said: And they are all wrong. Start with yours. The modern methods for changing
motor speed without reducing torque as I saidshould be used.
BN said: Assertions for expecting loads on a motor to go UP as shaft speed goes
down are incorrect
EMJ said: And WHO said that Bob? I said the torque should not be reduced as the
motor speed decreasesas is the case if the voltage is merely reduced.
EMJ said: The second point is that trim speed should usually be reduced as a function
of airspeed. Often this is critical and can give the pilot sudden difficulties.
Tee-ing off the pitot line and using the pressure signal is easy to do.
BN said: I've designed a number of pitch trim controllers. The first two went on
the Lear 55 and the second was a fleet retrofit to the 30 series. I proposed
a continuously variable pitch trim rate based on IAS but it proved unnecessary.
Trim rates optimized for cruising flight fell into one fairly narrow range,
speeds for approach to landing in another narrow range. Turns out that approach:
cruise trims in the Lear systems were 4:1 ratio. Use a flaps-not-stowed switch
to select high speed and we were done.
EMJ said: Whatever... but Im not sure Learjet experience (where the amount of trim
motion needed at 500 knots is tiny and the motor are big) is relevant for
the stock RVs that have speed/trim problems using reduced voltage at high airspeeds.
Thanks...the loyal (occasional) opposition.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=413380#413380
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim motor speed control |
At 02:52 PM 11/18/2013, you wrote:
>
>EMJ said: An important point of trim motor speed
>controlling is that the torque should not be
>reduced when the speed is reduced (in fact, it
>could go up...but not down). This makes regular
>voltage controllers undesirable except where torque isn't an issue.
Help me out. Are you talking about available torque or
demanded torque? In the examples I cited and data plots
published, torque demanded is a function of the mechanism
being powered. I'm aware of no piece of machinery that
demands more torque as the speed is reduced.
A speed/torque 'curve' is not really curved but a
straight line that depicts motor speed/torque performance
based on terminal voltage applied. The 'curve' has
downward slope and is set by the motor's internal
resistance. Internal resistance limits AVAILABLE torque
at that voltage. My assertion is that for any applied
voltage you choose, performance of the motor is
predictable and easily illustrated by plotting the
appropriate 'curve'.
>EMJ said: And they are all wrong. Start with
>yours. The modern methods for changing motor
>speed without reducing torque as I saidshould be used.
Okay, suppose the target speed is satisfied
by reducing applied voltage to say, 5 volts.
Describe the mechanism by which a motor's performance
is improved by using one form of voltage 'adjustment'
over some other form. I.e., what is the "modern method"
to which you refer?
>EMJ said: And WHO said that Bob? I said the
>torque should not be reduced as the motor speed
>decreasesas is the case if the voltage is merely reduced.
Okay, you've answered the question. My apologies. Yes,
AVAILABLE torque can be degraded to the point where a
motor is at risk for stalling at the lower extreme of
RPM vs. available torque for the voltage applied. My
assertion is that 5 volts average applied voltage produces
the same performance irrespective of the mechanism by
which that voltage is produced.
>EMJ said: Whatever... but Im not sure Learjet
>experience (where the amount of trim motion
>needed at 500 knots is tiny and the motor are
>big) is relevant for the stock RVs that have
>speed/trim problems using reduced voltage at high airspeeds.
No argument that adjustable trim rates for aircraft
with broader operating speeds is a good thing and
may apply to airplanes of any size . . .
Pilots would like to ask for and get very tiny movements
in the trim system at cruise. If the motor speed is
optimized for that condition, then it's painfully slow
for setting the airplane up to land. The idea that
there was value in crafting a continuously adjustable
trim rate was rejected as unnecessarily complex. Lear's
pilots were quite happy with the 4:1 ratio.
Trim motor motion on a Beechjet at Mach cruise needed
to be so small that servoing to a speed was impossible.
The smallest trim adjustment offered by the autopilot
is a mere 133 milliseconds long.
The Lear systems were SERVOed speed controllers where
motor characteristics did not impact available torque
from the motors. Voltage was adjusted to hold target speed
irrespective of voltage or load. The controller that
finally went onto the airplanes held +/- 1% of target
speed over the full range of load, voltage and temperature.
In the Lear system, tachometers on the motor shafts
provided speed feedback data. The motors used in
OBAM aircraft are seldom fitted with such devices.
The PM motor CAN be used as it's own tach generator.
If you PWM the applied voltage 0ne can sample the Cemf
of the motor and use that value to report motor speed
to the servo-loop.
With a servoed speed control loop, the motor's
speed/torque curve no longer defines performance
limits at slow speed. The controller drives voltage to
maintain target speed even at the maximum expected load.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions about Z-08 |
At 01:57 PM 11/18/2013, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>In the postings on running an alternator without a battery, you
>suggested I consider your new draft Z-08, which is buried in the
>long stream on "EXP 2 Bus workaround." The more I look at Z-08, the
>more I like the simplicity. It seems to meet most of my design
>goals, but answers to a few questions would be helpful.
>
>1. What were your criteria in deciding to connect "Engine A" with a
>switch (1-3) and "Engine B" through a relay?
the wires associated with "A" go mostly cold with
opening the battery contactor. The relay is a 'mini
contactor' located adjacent to the battery hence
the contactor control switch "B" on the panel
> By the way, what does the "K2" inside a green hexagon indicate on
> the relays?
Artifact reference designators not yet germane to the
drawing.
>
>2. You show both A and B connected to the "Motive Power
>Distribution Bus" through a single stud and bolt connector. I've
>read that lock washers do little to prevent a bolt from
>loosening. What do you do to give this type of connection the
>reliability one needs for critical components? Or can we? Wouldn't
>a different connection for A and B be prudent?
The fuseblock connection is a stud that can
be secured with a locking nut . . . unlike headed
screws that engage threaded holes on popular terminal strips.
>
>3. With respect to screw type connectors, what about the ground
>connection to the engine block? The high vibration of a running
>engine would seem to make these especially susceptible to
>loosening. What about two block connections going to two brass
>bolts through the firewall ground bus, or would this set up an
>electrically noisy ground loop?
You could use two straps to the engine if you
wish . . . but some thread-locker on the single
bolt would secure it. Vibration is not an automatic
loosening force on a threaded fastener . . . it's
mass who's cg is not centered on the bolt that
provides loosening torque due to vibration. In this
case, a terminal on a soft piece of wire or braid
doesn't offer a significant mass.
>
>4. I found your discussions about single versus dual batteries and
>properly maintaining batteries to be interesting. Since, as I
>mentioned in an earlier post, I've experienced a car battery
>shorting while I was driving. I accurately interpreted the limited
>info and stopped the car in a convenient place. Yes, the battery
>did not get the kind of attention you have suggested. But will the
>next owner of my plane be as conscientious as me?
It should be noted in your POH/Maintenance documents.
There are numerous critical structures that receive
annual and/or pre-flight inspection. Adding the battery(ies)
to such a list isn't a far-fetched idea.
> So, what is the downside of changing the DC Power Master from
> OFF/BAT/BAT+ALT to OFF/ALT/ALT+BAT, assuming that ALT FIELD can be
> disconnected if the alternator needs to be disconnected? If I did
> so, I would use an MGL Battery Monitor to see both voltage and
> current across the battery.
With the crowbar ov protection, you could
do the DC power switching as a simple two-pole,
on-off device. You can pull the breaker to
kill the altenrator field circuit.
>
>I appreciate your approach to challenging people like me to think
>through our decisions. Great forum? Thanks.
>
I'm pleased that you find value in the exercise.
I believe that the attentive builder is a much
lower-risk pilot because he is privy to things
our flight instructors never told us . . . or were
included in the cookie-cutter POH.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EXP 2 Bus workaround |
| From: | "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
Fred, I think we left this study dangling for lack of a list of proposed loads
on your ship's bus structures. Have you had time to consider this? Doesn't need
to be a drawing, just a text listing of each load . . . perhaps grouped by supply
bus.
Bob . . .
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=413418#413418
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Burnaby" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
| Subject: | Wow!...it's really going to happen. |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMaprpJKcls
Pretty exciting stuff.
Think of the area, internal and external, of a composite airframe,
including spars, ribs, bulkheads...a flying battery.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kent Ogden" <ogdenk(at)upstate.edu> |
| Subject: | Roll Servo Wiring for RV-10 |
Hi all,
I am trying to get my wings closed up on my RV-10, but I would like to get
all the wiring in first if possible. I haven't decided on an autopilot
yet, but I was wondering if the roll servos that are out there would use a
more or less similar wiring harness. If, for example, I got a SteinAir
wiring harness for a Trutrak servo, would it be compatible with another
AP? I guess I don't know how many different servos there are, do
different AP's use basically the same servos?
Kent
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Rhodenbaugh <timrhod(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Roll Servo Wiring for RV-10 |
You may be able to use the same wires perhaps relocating a few pins but the s
ervos differ depending on which autopilot you use. I switched from a blue m
ountain system to a truetrac and was able to use the same wires already inst
alled just had to relocate the pins.
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 19, 2013, at 11:36 AM, "Kent Ogden" wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I am trying to get my wings closed up on my RV-10, but I would like to get
all the wiring in first if possible. I haven't decided on an autopilot yet
, but I was wondering if the roll servos that are out there would use a more
or less similar wiring harness. If, for example, I got a SteinAir wiring h
arness for a Trutrak servo, would it be compatible with another AP? I guess
I don't know how many different servos there are, do different AP's use bas
ically the same servos?
>
> Kent
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Garmin Database Question. |
Good Morning All,
This is not particularly Aero Electric specific, but many of us do use
either the GNS 430 or the 530 for navigation.
I often play with the Garmin simulator so that maybe someday I will get
good enough to use ten per cent of the capability instead of only five
percent. Along that line, it would be nice to have a more current database than
what Garmin supplies free. They are now using a 2007 based data bank.
A year ago or so, someone posted a method whereby we could update the
database on the free simulator. I tried that last spring and it worked great.
However, I lost the procedure and would like to install a new update. Do any
of you know how to do the update?
Or, does anyone remember who posted the procedure?
Sure wish I could find that old procedure.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Stearman N3977A
LL22
Downers Grove, IL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sheldon Olesen <saolesen(at)sirentel.net> |
I looked up the pinouts for a USB port on Wikipedia and ended up confused. They
label pin 2 & 3 as data - and data + respectively. I need to know which is
data transmit and data receive. Any help would be appreciated.
I also don't like the 24ga wires included with the plug. Are there any USB plugs
that I can add on my own wires or have 22ga wires?
Thanks,
Sheldon Olesen
Sent from my iPad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin Database Question. |
Bob,
Check out this thread...
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=76306
Not sure if it still applies.
On 11/19/13, 10:49 AM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
> Good Morning All,
> This is not particularly Aero Electric specific, but many of us do use
> either the GNS 430 or the 530 for navigation.
> I often play with the Garmin simulator so that maybe someday I will
> get good enough to use ten per cent of the capability instead of only
> five percent. Along that line, it would be nice to have a more
> current database than what Garmin supplies free. They are now using a
> 2007 based data bank.
> A year ago or so, someone posted a method whereby we could update the
> database on the free simulator. I tried that last spring and it worked
> great. However, I lost the procedure and would like to install a new
> update. Do any of you know how to do the update?
> Or, does anyone remember who posted the procedure?
> Sure wish I could find that old procedure.
> Happy Skies,
> Old Bob
> Stearman N3977A
> LL22
> Downers Grove, IL
> *
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Roll Servo Wiring for RV-10 |
On 11/19/2013 11:36 AM, Kent Ogden wrote:
I would determine the max number of wires required for any AP servo,
then get the Trutrak harness with any extra wires bundled in with it.
That number is probably zero. Stein can probably answer that one off
the top of his head.
You will find you have plenty of access for adding/changing the
terminating plug once the wing is closed up. But routing the wire is
much easier before you close things. A good service loop is desirable
at that servo location in any case. Go for it.
Bill
> Hi all,
> I am trying to get my wings closed up on my RV-10, but I would like to
> get all the wiring in first if possible. I haven't decided on an
> autopilot yet, but I was wondering if the roll servos that are out
> there would use a more or less similar wiring harness. If, for
> example, I got a SteinAir wiring harness for a Trutrak servo, would it
> be compatible with another AP? I guess I don't know how many
> different servos there are, do different AP's use basically the same
> servos?
> Kent
>
> *
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 10:55 AM 11/19/2013, you wrote:
>
>
>I looked up the pinouts for a USB port on Wikipedia and ended up
>confused. They label pin 2 & 3 as data - and data +
>respectively. I need to know which is data transmit and data
>receive. Any help would be appreciated.
The USB serial communications is 'party-line'
communications on a twisted pair. The host
controller (usually in your computer) queries
the data bus to see who's out there and which
of several modes of communications are being
requested. Only one device can talk while all
devices can listen. Hence, unlike RS232, there
are no separate tx, rx lines.
>I also don't like the 24ga wires included with the plug. Are there
>any USB plugs that I can add on my own wires or have 22ga wires?
Digikey sells all manner of serial data cable
connectors. An exemplar A plug that would accept
22awg wire is here
http://tinyurl.com/plg4goq
They sell for about $3.50
When I need a USB cable that will carry power
out to an accessory, I usually order a 'high
current' pre-fab cable and cut one end off.
You end up with a more compact, factory
installed connector on the far end.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
On 11/19/2013 11:55 AM, Sheldon Olesen wrote:
> Are there any USB plugs that I can add on my own wires or have 22ga wires?
http://www.mouser.com/ sells them. I just ordered the following parts
to make up a USB cable to plug a SkyRadar ADSB unit into a GRT HX EFIS.
I haven't made the cable yet so I can't say how hard it will be.
798-UX40-MB-5P
UX40-MB-5P
MINI B CBLE PLUG
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=UX40-MB-5Pvirtualkey64550000virtualkey798-UX40-MB-5P
571-2040305-1
2040305-1
STD IND USB A KIT 4P
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R 40305-1virtualkey57100000virtualkey571-2040305-1
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wow!...it's really going to happen. |
Oh, yeah, I'm excited all right. You get an Albert Einstein looking guy to make
a video about a technology that is so far fetched most people aren't going to
believe it. But some do The proof in the pudding is to put you money where
your mouth is. If you really think this stuff is pretty exciting, contact Per-Ivar
Sellengren and tell him you're so excited you want to know where to send
R&D money!
Henador Titzoff
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 11/19/13, John Burnaby wrote:
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wow!...it's really going to happen.
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, November 19, 2013, 7:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMaprpJKcls
Pretty exciting
stuff.
Think of the area, internal
and
external, of a composite airframe, including spars, ribs,
bulkheads...a flying
battery.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Roll Servo Wiring for RV-10 |
Dynon sells 20" servo wire bundles which IIRC were 5 wire, which are
specific to their servos. I do know Trutrak wiring is different, even
though the servos physically interchange with each other. Dynon did a
fair amount of development to magnify force and travel for their RV-10
elevator servo. I don't know what the others have, the Dynon was a
simple install...drill a few holes and bolt it in. Well thought out.
On 11/19/2013 10:27 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
> On 11/19/2013 11:36 AM, Kent Ogden wrote:
> I would determine the max number of wires required for any AP servo,
> then get the Trutrak harness with any extra wires bundled in with it.
> That number is probably zero. Stein can probably answer that one off
> the top of his head.
>
> You will find you have plenty of access for adding/changing the
> terminating plug once the wing is closed up. But routing the wire is
> much easier before you close things. A good service loop is desirable
> at that servo location in any case. Go for it.
>
> Bill
>
>> Hi all,
>> I am trying to get my wings closed up on my RV-10, but I would like
>> to get all the wiring in first if possible. I haven't decided on an
>> autopilot yet, but I was wondering if the roll servos that are out
>> there would use a more or less similar wiring harness. If, for
>> example, I got a SteinAir wiring harness for a Trutrak servo, would
>> it be compatible with another AP? I guess I don't know how many
>> different servos there are, do different AP's use basically the same
>> servos?
>> Kent
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sheldon Olesen <saolesen(at)sirentel.net> |
Bob and DJ, thanks! Your suggestions are helpful and will be used.
Thanks again,
Sheldon Olesen
Sent from my iPad
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| Subject: | Re: Roll Servo Wiring for RV-10 |
| From: | DeWitt Whittington <dee.whittington(at)gmail.com> |
Kent,
Please send your question to Chuck Busch at Trio Avionics in California. We
have bought the Trio Pro Pilot and Gold Series servos for our Sportsman.
Although we aren't flying yet, I still think Trio is the top of the heap
for auto pilots in experimental aircraft.
Email him at ezflyr82(at)cox.net or info(at)trioavionics.com
He's a super nice guy. I always make it a point to talk to him and the Trio
team at Oshkosh and Sun 'n Fun. If you ever get the chance, either in
October 26, 2013 - November 19, 2013
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ma