Kolb-Archive.digest.vol-dz
November 18, 2002 - November 30, 2002
> related to the Isocyanoacrylate compounds which are sold as "crazy
glue'....
> And they will quickly do the same cute things to your lungs... (turn 'em
> into styrofoam...) These two-part coatings really require a forced air
hood
> with a separate external air supply to spray safely... conventional masks,
> even the highest quality charcoal ones, become completely worthless after
> only a couple of minutes as the mask filter medium becomes encapsulated
and
> neutralized...you will gleefully shoot on, oblivious to the fact that your
> mask has totally crapped out and you might as well have a pair of your
high
> school sweeties undies over yer head as the clogged up mask you are
> wearing... I personally wear an old aqualung when I shoot these
poisons...
> (I finally wore out the last remaining pair of the undies to the point
that
> even I was ashamed to be seen out on the driveway in 'em...)
>
> The rule of thumb here is that you are issued only one set of lungs...
once
> you screw em up in the course of trying to hurry through an afternoon's
> painting without taking the time to go to the store to get the right gear,
> you are screwed for life and will likely pay later with asthma, cancer, or
> whatever... and that is particularly true with the two-part stuff... Be
> damned careful with those products... This ain't the time to go cheap or
cut
> corners... they are lethal.
>
> Sermon over... As I said, this advice is worth what Ye paid fer it...
>
> Back into my garbage can....
>
> Beauford, The Aluminum Butcher of Brandon, FL
> FF #076
> Nothin' fell off yet....
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Pierzina" <planecrazzzy(at)lycos.com>
> To: "z Kolb-List"
> Subject: Kolb-List: 66" Prop
>
>
> >
> > Hey Guys,
> > For those of you with Firestars/ 503's & 66"prop's -
Is
> it a three blade ? or two,
> > I know their was a thread about this alitte while back , but , it was
> like the roof...it was over my head...
> > Gotta Fly...
> > Mike
> >
> > P.S. I can't find the right respirator for these poly
> chemicals....I was told " buy the cheap one and crack the garage
door....so
> much for "Heated Garage" at least the temp is above 32* in the daytime. (
> Minnesota )
> > ---
> > Sometimes you just have to take the leap
> > and build your wings on the way down...
> > Gotta Fly...
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Pike <rwpike(at)preferred.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 150 hr. inspection |
Depends on how much of a mechanic you are. I do all my own work, but then I
used to make a living as a motorcycle mechanic 30 years ago, and the Rotax
is no more difficult than any other 2 stroke, actually easier, because
unlike a motorcycle engine, you don't have to reassemble the transmission
and shifter mechanism when you reassemble it.
CPS sells an engine vacuum and pressure tester, which will tell you if your
seals are leaking, and I use it every year, which comes out to about every
50 hours or so. Good peace of mind, well worth the cost.
When the seals start failing it does not affect the crank as much as it
affects your mixture.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
>I plan to remove my 618 shortly to send in to a service center for a 150 hr.
>inspection. How many other Rotax owners have done this? Would you recommend
>this, as things have shown up. I understand that seals begin to leak at this
>stage and start the process where the crank ends up failing. Anyway, for
>peace of mind, I'll send mine in.
>Fly Safe
>Bob Griffin
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jason Omelchuck <jason(at)acuityinc.com> |
| Subject: | Gap seal solid or see through? |
I am to the point of making my gap seal for my MKIII Classic. I think
there is merit to making it solid and enclosing a soft pack BRS in it, but
then it is not see through. My question is, when flying and particularly
when turning, do any of you ever look up through the gap seal to see the
ground or just to clear your turn. I know when flying a Cessna, I lean
forward quite a bit and look to see where I am turning or to look at the
ground when I am really banking. As I sit in my partially completed MKIII,
I can imagine that it would be valuable to be able to look through the gap
seal, but I also think it would be very clean to have the chute installed
there. I know there are those of you out there who have thousands of hours
with a solid gap seal and have not crashed yet. I also know there are those
of you out there that can look through the gap seal and probably don't feel
is is saving your life every time you do. I am searching for input on if
you feel it is useful or gives you plane a better "feel" or not.
Thanks
Jason Omelchuck
MKIII (classic)
Portland OR
JASON OMELCHUCK
ACUITY INCORPORATED
PHONE 503.221.6995 x 102
FAX 503.221.3139
www.acuityinc.com <http://www.acuityinc.com/>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Gap seal solid or see through? |
> My question is, when flying and particularly
> when turning, do any of you ever look up through the gap seal to see the
> ground or just to clear your turn.
> Jason Omelchuck
> JASON OMELCHUCK
Jason/Gents:
The forward section of my gap seal is clear lexan
with a BRS in the middle of my sight pic. I don't
use it to clear myself, or do I have any use for
an open space behind me to see where I have been.
The main reason I built my out of lexan was it was
easier to construct, being able to see the ribs
through the lexan to drill.d
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Pike <rwpike(at)preferred.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Gap seal solid or see through? |
All that clear plastic makes it hot in the summer. I am going to cover part
of mine up with paint just to keep some of the sun out and keep it cooler.
But it depends on your ventilation, you may not need to worry about it.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
>I am to the point of making my gap seal for my MKIII Classic. I think
>there is merit to making it solid and enclosing a soft pack BRS in it, but
>then it is not see through. My question is, when flying and particularly
>when turning, do any of you ever look up through the gap seal to see the
>ground or just to clear your turn. I know when flying a Cessna, I lean
>forward quite a bit and look to see where I am turning or to look at the
>ground when I am really banking. As I sit in my partially completed MKIII,
>I can imagine that it would be valuable to be able to look through the gap
>seal, but I also think it would be very clean to have the chute installed
>there. I know there are those of you out there who have thousands of hours
>with a solid gap seal and have not crashed yet. I also know there are those
>of you out there that can look through the gap seal and probably don't feel
>is is saving your life every time you do. I am searching for input on if
>you feel it is useful or gives you plane a better "feel" or not.
>
>Thanks
>Jason Omelchuck
>MKIII (classic)
>Portland OR
>
>
>JASON OMELCHUCK
>ACUITY INCORPORATED
>PHONE 503.221.6995 x 102
>FAX 503.221.3139
>www.acuityinc.com <http://www.acuityinc.com/>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | FireFly Ailerons??? |
In reading different threads, I have seen mention of different Aileron chords on
the Firefly. I am about to the Aileron building point and According to my print.,
my ailerons should be 11 inchs wide. I called Kolb to confirm this, and
asked if there haad been any changes since my kit was shipped to original owner..19
months ago or so. They said no..11 inchs is correct.
Can anyone here expand on the different Aileron widths over the years and their
effect on the little bird??
Don Gherardini
FireFly 098
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Volum" <pvolum(at)etsmiami.com> |
| Subject: | Gap seal solid or see through? |
Mine is made of aluminum. I've never felt an overwhelming need to look
diagonally upwards and backwards. (Then again, I've never flown with a
transparent gap seal either). The permanent installation has also given
me useful space for mounting switches and instruments that wouldn't fit
on the panel.
Peter Volum
Mk III
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jason
Omelchuck
Subject: Kolb-List: Gap seal solid or see through?
I am to the point of making my gap seal for my MKIII Classic. I think
there is merit to making it solid and enclosing a soft pack BRS in it,
but
then it is not see through. My question is, when flying and particularly
when turning, do any of you ever look up through the gap seal to see the
ground or just to clear your turn. I know when flying a Cessna, I lean
forward quite a bit and look to see where I am turning or to look at the
ground when I am really banking. As I sit in my partially completed
MKIII,
I can imagine that it would be valuable to be able to look through the
gap
seal, but I also think it would be very clean to have the chute
installed
there. I know there are those of you out there who have thousands of
hours
with a solid gap seal and have not crashed yet. I also know there are
those
of you out there that can look through the gap seal and probably don't
feel
is is saving your life every time you do. I am searching for input on
if
you feel it is useful or gives you plane a better "feel" or not.
Thanks
Jason Omelchuck
MKIII (classic)
Portland OR
JASON OMELCHUCK
ACUITY INCORPORATED
PHONE 503.221.6995 x 102
FAX 503.221.3139
www.acuityinc.com <http://www.acuityinc.com/>
==
Contribution
=
=
=
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Weber" <bweber2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Powerfin Torque Values |
Hi all,
I seem to have lost my paper work on my Powerfin. I have a 2 blade prop on
Rotax 447. The bolt pattern is 6 bolts attached to the mounting plate plus 2
bolts on each side to set the prop blades. I seem to remember the outside
bols having a different torque value than those thru the mounting plate.
What are the proper torque values and tightening sequence?
Thanks
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Weber" <bweber2(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Gap seal solid or see through? |
Jason,
You can have both a clear gap seal and a chute mounted there as I do on my
Firestar. Just build the transparent gap seal, the install the chute and
trim the gap seal to go around it. I could send a couple of pictures if you
like.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Jason Omelchuck <jason(at)acuityinc.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: Gap seal solid or see through?
>
>
> I am to the point of making my gap seal for my MKIII Classic. I think
> there is merit to making it solid and enclosing a soft pack BRS in it, but
> then it is not see through. My question is, when flying and particularly
> when turning, do any of you ever look up through the gap seal to see the
> ground or just to clear your turn. I know when flying a Cessna, I lean
> forward quite a bit and look to see where I am turning or to look at the
> ground when I am really banking. As I sit in my partially completed
MKIII,
> I can imagine that it would be valuable to be able to look through the gap
> seal, but I also think it would be very clean to have the chute installed
> there. I know there are those of you out there who have thousands of
hours
> with a solid gap seal and have not crashed yet. I also know there are
those
> of you out there that can look through the gap seal and probably don't
feel
> is is saving your life every time you do. I am searching for input on if
> you feel it is useful or gives you plane a better "feel" or not.
>
> Thanks
> Jason Omelchuck
> MKIII (classic)
> Portland OR
>
>
> JASON OMELCHUCK
> ACUITY INCORPORATED
> PHONE 503.221.6995 x 102
> FAX 503.221.3139
> www.acuityinc.com <http://www.acuityinc.com/>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jason Omelchuck <jason(at)acuityinc.com> |
| Subject: | see through gap seal |
I am to the point of making my gap seal for my MKIII Classic. I think
there is merit to making it solid and enclosing a soft pack BRS in it, but
then it is not see through. My question is, when flying and particularly
when turning, do any of you ever look up through the gap seal to see the
ground or just to clear your turn. I know when flying a Cessna, I lean
forward quite a bit and look to see where I am turning or to look at the
ground when I am really banking. As I sit in my partially completed MKIII,
I can imagine that it would be valuable to be able to look through the gap
seal, but I also think it would be very clean to have the chute installed
there. I know there are those of you out there who have thousands of hours
with a solid gap seal and have not crashed yet. I also know there are those
of you out there that can look through the gap seal and probably don't feel
is saving your life every time you do. I am searching for input on if you
feel it is useful or gives you plane a better "feel" or not.
Thanks
Jason Omelchuck
MKIII (classic)
Portland OR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Hocker" <hocker(at)gte.net> |
Hey Kolbers,
I'm new to the list, and I'm looking for a used BRS or GRS ballistic chute for
my '86 Kolb Twinstar if anyone knows of one for sale. I'm located in Bradenton,
Florida. I haven't had any luck locating one in the ultralight classifieds
so far. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart(at)ldd.net> |
| Subject: | Re: FireFly Ailerons??? |
>
>In reading different threads, I have seen mention of different Aileron chords
on the Firefly. I am about to the Aileron building point and According to my print.,
my ailerons should be 11 inchs wide. I called Kolb to confirm this, and
asked if there haad been any changes since my kit was shipped to original owner..19
months ago or so. They said no..11 inchs is correct.
>Can anyone here expand on the different Aileron widths over the years and their
effect on the little bird??
>
>Don Gherardini
>FireFly 098
>
Don,
I may be the culprit that is spreading incorrect information about the current
FireFly aileron chord length. I used the words "nine inch chord" in a post not
long ago. I checked my FireFly flight log, and this is what I found.
"October 1, 1999, flight #7, about ten minutes, 2.29tt. ..... Before heading
out I called to talk to them (TNK) about the washer idea. Chris Jerome thought
it was a good idea. He also said that he had researched the aileron problem,
and that some of the early FireFlys had 15" chord ailerons. Their FireFly had
9" chord ailerons. ......"
I will update to the info in:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly26.html
to reflect that eleven inches is the current FireFly design aileron chord. At
this point, would I think about building another set of ailerons? No. Stick pressures
at cruise with nine inch ailerons remained too heavy at cruise, and it
was not until I changed the push rod moment arm and limited ailerons defection
to 20 degrees down that aileron stick pressures became reasonable.
My apologies for the confusion.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart(at)ldd.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick & Martha Neilsen" <neilsenrm(at)cs.com> |
| Subject: | Powerfin Torque Values |
I can't seem to lay my hands on my PowerFin paper work but I have been using
175 in. lb. or 20 NM for all the bolts. Be sure to torque the bolts on the
sides of the prop evenly or the pitch will change as you tighten the bolts.
For the six prop bolts use a crisscross pattern. Also it is always a good
idea to work up to the max torque in small steps.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIII
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bill Weber
Subject: Kolb-List: Powerfin Torque Values
Hi all,
I seem to have lost my paper work on my Powerfin. I have a 2 blade prop on
Rotax 447. The bolt pattern is 6 bolts attached to the mounting plate plus 2
bolts on each side to set the prop blades. I seem to remember the outside
bols having a different torque value than those thru the mounting plate.
What are the proper torque values and tightening sequence?
Thanks
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Duncan McBride <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net> |
It's funny the things you begin to contemplate once the inspection is over (Yes!
319DM is airworthy!) and flight becomes a distinct possibility. A few things
the DAR mentioned - I just ordered a little clear vinyl envelope thingy to
store my registration, certificate, operating limitations, and weight and balance.
It got me to thinking that one, there isn't anyplace to keep stuff in a
stock Mark III, and two, do I need to have a little tool bag with the most-likely-to-be-needed
tools should I have to put down in the proverbial cow pasture
and effect repairs? I asked around the field and was told that something to
kill fire ants and repel cows would be good, and never fly beyond gliding distance
to the field without my cell phone. What about it, guys? This might be
an interesting survey. Do I need a handy little tool wrap like you used to
get with a Honda 50, with extra spark plugs, safety wire, and a Leatherman tool,
or will it just be dead weight? What do y'all carry along with you, just in
case? Water? MRE? Tie-downs? I gotta figure this out before I get too far.....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
Do I need a handy little tool wrap like you used
to get with a Honda 50, with extra spark plugs,
safety wire, and a Leatherman tool, or will it
just be dead weight? What do y'all ca!
> rry along with you, just in case? Water? MRE? Tie-downs? I gotta figure this
out before I get too far.....
Duncan/Gents:
I have been carrying a Rotax tool wrap since 447
and Firestar days. I have all the Rotax stuff
plus what I think I will need to do the little
things that need doing. Tie wraps, safety wire,
black plastic electrical tape, spare fuel filter
and o rings, anything I need to do the stuff that
might just need to be done.
Water and a couple MRE's are not a bad idea. Tie
downs are good too.
You will not need any of this stuff until you need
it. :-) Then if you don't have it it is similar
to needing a parachute and not having it on board.
If you are running a 912 you probably do not need
to carry a spare set of spark plugs, that is eight
of those little buggers, unless you are doing
serious cross country work and feeding it on a
steady diet of 100LL. Even then a couple one or
two would be enough to get you going, or you can
pull out the lead fouled plug, clean out the lead
with a piece of safety wire and be on your way.
BTW: If you run 100LL it is not a bad idea to
also run Alcore TCP.
Take care,
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SGreenpg(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Gap seal solid or see through? |
Jason,
My gap seal is clear and I seldom look through it. My BRS is a canister on
top. If I were doing it over I would use the VLS inside the gap seal.
Steven Green
N58SG
MKIII 210 hrs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Laird <rlaird(at)cavediver.com> |
At 06:25 PM 11/18/2002, you wrote:
>also run Alcore TCP.
What is "Alcore TCP"???
-- Robert
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
> What is "Alcore TCP"???
>
> -- Robert
Robert/Gents:
Alcore TCP is a lead scavenger. Developed way
back in the 30's or 40's to scavenge lead from
those big round engines and help keep the crank
cases clear of lead and the many many spark plugs
from lead fouling.
I did not use it during my 234 hour 1994 flight
and got lead fouled spark plugs about every 75 to
80 hours in the 912. During the 2001 flight I
flew 135 hours, used Alcore TCP and experienced no
lead fouling in the 912S.
It works.
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Gap seal solid or see through? |
In a message dated 11/18/02 11:28:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jason(at)acuityinc.com writes:
> I am to the point of making my gap seal for my MKIII Classic. I think
> there is merit to making it solid and enclosing a soft pack BRS in it, but
> then it is not see through. My question is, when flying and particularly
> when turning, do any of you ever look up through the gap seal to see the
> ground or just to clear your turn. I know when flying a Cessna, I lean
> forward quite a bit and look to see where I am turning or to look at the
> ground when I am really banking. As I sit in my partially completed MKIII,
> I can imagine that it would be valuable to be able to look through the gap
> seal, but I also think it would be very clean to have the chute installed
> there. I know there are those of you out there who have thousands of hours
> with a solid gap seal and have not crashed yet. I also know there are
> those
> of you out there that can look through the gap seal and probably don't feel
> is saving your life every time you do. I am searching for input on if
> you feel it is useful or gives you plane a better "feel" or not.
>
> Thanks
> Jason Omelchuck
> MKIII (classic)
> Portland OR
>
> Jason, there is also a pretty large contingent of "underside chute
> mounters" as well ....Not for the purpose of making a 'clean' airplane as
> much as for the purpose of greater reliability of the chute being able to
> do its job. A man was killed in Disneyland 7 years ago or so when the wings
> of his challenger folded up as he overstressed them during acrobatic
> practice for a new Disney act. He fired his chute which was located between
> the wings but to little avail as the rocket hung up in the metal of the
> folded up wings. I have seen several locations used for mounting to bypass
> this possibility.
> On the Phantom type tractor the Michigan gang usually mounts in on the boom
> behind the cage. On my Firestar KX, I mounted one (softpak) under my boom
> facing out the side aimed a little back into pure space. I know many on
> this list including JH mount it between the wings but about the only time I
> expect to use mine is when the wings fold .... And unless I'm already
> inverted, I expect that fold to be UP over the cage, right in front of the
> rocket, just like at Disneyworld.
>
> The major detriment to aiming for the lateral free space is the additional
> fall heighth necessary to open the canopy,and I admit this is the major
> tradoff in my estimation. There have been some saves at 75',but I would
> suspect the rocket was aimed nearly straight up for those.
>
> George Randolph
> Firestar KX driver from Akron, O
Without any experiential proof, I am of the opinion that the most reliable
position to aim your rocket is into unoccupied space and the only place I can
imagine that to be is where I mounted mine. At failure, whatever fails, will
be flowing back and up, as you go down. I think the trajectory of the rocket
should not challenge upness, (new technical term), as that space will try to
be occupied by the bad stuff (quite clearly bad as it has decided to depart
its rightful home on your airplane).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim and Phyllis Hefner" <hefners_tucson(at)hotmail.com> |
447 w/66" 2 blade IVOon FF013. 110hrs TT (65hrs since I solo'd in January).
I think the 447 is a great fit for the FF. I do all tail-up take'off's and never
feel like the plane wants tonose over. I have the pitch set for cruise, which
takes some of the spunk out of it, but it stillcan ditch you if you shove the
power full forward all at once... you just don't do that!I tried the recommended
full-stick-back take-off a couple times and ditched that for a tail-up take-off,
which is much more under control. In cross winds, the plane wanted to
dance sideways, since it was trying to fly before it had enough speed with the
stick back. I'm sure most FF fliers have figured this out by now, but thought
I'd mention it in case someone hasn't.
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
Fly out of SanManuel (E77), 40miles North of Tucson
4300' paved strip
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Wetzel <A href="mailto:dougwe(at)wrq.com?subject=Re:%20Surveyreplyto=200211142247.gAEMlMq16598(at)matronics.com">dougwe(at)wrq.com
Subject: Survey
-- Kolb-List message posted by: Doug Wetzel dougwe(at)wrq.com
How about a poll on what powerplants Firestar and Firefly owners are
using?
Inquiring minds want to know..
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart(at)ldd.net> |
| Subject: | Re: see through gap seal |
>
>I am to the point of making my gap seal for my MKIII Classic. I think
>there is merit to making it solid and enclosing a soft pack BRS in it, but
>then it is not see through. My question is, when flying and particularly
>when turning, do any of you ever look up through the gap seal to see the
>ground or just to clear your turn.
Jason,
I always worry that someone much faster is going to come down on top of me from
behind. I had a vacant space in the upper middle of my panel and I stuck a little
spherical mirror there. It is great, in that, I can see behind me as I
look ahead. And best of all on final I can look back up over the wing.
You can see it at:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly27.html
I hope I never see another plane in it, but I keep looking.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart(at)ldd.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | woody <duesouth(at)govital.net> |
| Subject: | Re: aluminum bonding |
Back in the early eighties there was a plane that was 90% taped together.
Not much to look at but that was due to the designer not being real
artistic. He even sold sample pieces to experiment with.
This of course was on flat sheets. I don't think there would be enough
surface area for tubes to be stuck together.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | woody <duesouth(at)govital.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Gap seal solid or see through? |
I haven't had the need to look up. Could happen I suppose. By going solid
you can also fabric cover the windshield bow and eliminate a lot of drafts.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Pike <rwpike(at)preferred.com> |
Since I have a little shelf behind the seat, there is a little cardboard
box there, and I have 3 screw in tiedowns, suitably shortened and with the
ropes attached. There is a little vinyl bag with metric 8, 10, 12, 13 mm
wrenches, a spark plug wrench, and a 3/8 -7/16" wrench, leatherman, safety
wire, electrical tape, 2 fresh pre gapped plugs, some screwdrivers, and a
shop rag. The box also has a quart of 2 stroke oil, and a small first aid
kit, suntan lotion, and a couple small toilet paper thingys that come in
MRE kits. The box is about 10" square, and 2" high. Also holds sectionals, etc.
Richard Pike
MKII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
>It's funny the things you begin to contemplate once the inspection is over
>(Yes! 319DM is airworthy!) and flight becomes a distinct possibility. A
>few things the DAR mentioned - I just ordered a little clear vinyl envelope
>thingy to store my registration, certificate, operating limitations, and
>weight and balance. It got me to thinking that one, there isn't anyplace to
>keep stuff in a stock Mark III, and two, do I need to have a little tool bag
>with the most-likely-to-be-needed tools should I have to put down in the
>proverbial cow pasture and effect repairs? I asked around the field and was
>told that something to kill fire ants and repel cows would be good, and
>never fly beyond gliding distance to the field without my cell phone. What
>about it, guys? This might be an interesting survey. Do I need a handy
>little tool wrap like you used to get with a Honda 50, with extra spark
>plugs, safety wire, and a Leatherman tool, or will it just be dead weight?
>What do y'all ca!
>rry along with you, just in case? Water? MRE? Tie-downs? I gotta figure
>this out before I get too far.....
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | [PLEASE READ] - Why Do I Have A Fund Raiser Each Year? |
Dear Listers,
I got to thinking today that perhaps I should explain why I have a Fund
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vincehallam(at)aol.com |
keeping cows away when landed out was a problem for me and my Tipsy
Belfair./I got a small electric fence unit [fist size but they make much
smaller gizmos now ] hooked to the aircraft [radio] battery..and to a trio of
light stakes with thirty meters
of thin s.s.wire to ring rond the parked plane. I might have dispensed with
the stakes and attached directly to nose wingtips and tail, but cattle buk
their heads up when they touch the fence and do some damage.Any way I
usually managed to park in a corner with the wire strung straight across the
gap ......Young cattle get really curios and bunch round trying to eat the
dope
vnz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Volum" <pvolum(at)etsmiami.com> |
| Subject: | see through gap seal |
Jack, Isn't the sun's reflection off the mirror a problem?
Peter
I always worry that someone much faster is going to come down on top of
me from behind. I had a vacant space in the upper middle of my panel
and I stuck a little spherical mirror there. It is great, in that, I
can see behind me as I look ahead. And best of all on final I can look
back up over the wing.
You can see it at:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly27.html
I hope I never see another plane in it, but I keep looking.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart(at)ldd.net> |
| Subject: | see through gap seal |
Peter,
Not so far.
Jack
>
>Jack, Isn't the sun's reflection off the mirror a problem?
>
>Peter
>
>
>I always worry that someone much faster is going to come down on top of
>me from behind. I had a vacant space in the upper middle of my panel
>and I stuck a little spherical mirror there. It is great, in that, I
>can see behind me as I look ahead. And best of all on final I can look
>back up over the wing.
>
>You can see it at:
>
>http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly27.html
>
>I hope I never see another plane in it, but I keep looking.
>
>Jack B. Hart FF004
>Jackson, MO
>
>
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart(at)ldd.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jimmy <jhankin(at)planters.net> |
Since I installed the back enclosure for the winter I noticed the altimeter hand
is fluctuating about 100 feet. The long hand is swinging back and forth like
a clock pendulum. I did not notice this before.
Could the tight enclosure cause this or do I have a defective unit.
Has anyone else experienced this.
I have a Firefly with a 447 Rotax.
Jimmy Hankinson
912-863-7384
Rocky Ford, Ga. 30455
jhankin(at)planters.net
Kolb Firefly/447/240hrs
Local field, Pegasus/2000/Grass
Airport JYL/Sylvania, Ga.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
> Could the tight enclosure cause this or do I have a defective unit.
> Jimmy Hankinson
Jimmy/Gents:
The altimeter hasn't changed, but you static air
pressure probably has. If the static pressure
source is in the cockpit enclosure, somewhere, it
is reading and reporting.
Take care,
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Thanksgiving Weekend |
Hello Kolbers,
We plan to be in the Jacksonville FL. area over the Thanksgiving holidays and are
looking to find some activity in the area. We will not have our aircraft, but
will have ground transportation. We will be staying at Hanna RV resort park.
Would love to hook up with any Kolb flyers/builders as well as any Vans RV builders/flyers.
Thanks
Paul & Charley
Cessna 4958p
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ZepRep251(at)aol.com |
Jimmy;If you have an external pitot static source,tee the altimiter static
into it and you're cured.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Edward Steuber" <esteuber(at)rochester.rr.com> |
Jimmy,
There is another easier way than going to an external static source.
Try using a plug on the backside of the altimeter. Plastic works best . Drill
a very , very .very small hole in the plug and screw it in. If the altimeter
still jumps then the hole is too big and you will have to "undrill " it or go
to an external static source.
The idea here is to allow a smaller fluctuation to be sensed in the
altimeter to dampen the movement. The rate of change of the altimeter will be
affected ever so little unless you are flying a swept wing Kolb with afterburner
and capable of the "time to climb " record.
Ed in Western NY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | possums <possums(at)mindspring.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart(at)ldd.net> |
Bob & Dale,
Just a point you might want to consider. A doubler might make sense after removing
a dent from the front end of the tail boom because that is where the greatest
stress occurs from tail feather deflections and tail first landings. But
as one moves toward the tail those stresses decrease in proportion of the distance
from the through the tube bolt at the rear end of the fuselage cage.
Except for cosmetic reasons, why remove the dent?
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
>
>I had a similar dent near the front of the tube but it was close enough to
>the end that I could get a special 16" reach c-clamp to it. I made a set of
>wooden dies, male and female and straightened it that way. Then I made a
>.006, rolled doubler about 12" long and put it around the spot, riveting
>along the seam and around each end. Depending on the severity of your dent,
>you might leave it and put a similar doubler around the tube at that point.
>Another option might be to fabricate a hardwood or metal plug, tapered on
>one end that is a good slide fit inside the tube and drive it through the
>area of the dent, forcing it back out. I think I would go with a doubler in
>either case. I checked with an AI and his recommendation was, with
>Aluminum, straighten as much as you can and then use a doubler.
>
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart(at)ldd.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gherkins Tim-rp3420 <rp3420(at)motorola.com> |
Dale,
I agree with Jack, just leave it alone. You stated it is on the bottom of the
tube. Who would ever know? Maybe the folks you fly over??? If it still bothers
you that much, I would fill it with Poly fiber fill, and paint the tube your
favorite color.
By the way, how did you get the dent in the first place? Something we can all
learn from?
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack & Louise Hart [mailto:jbhart(at)ldd.net]
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: No Traffic
Bob & Dale,
Just a point you might want to consider. A doubler might make sense after removing
a dent from the front end of the tail boom because that is where the greatest
stress occurs from tail feather deflections and tail first landings. But
as one moves toward the tail those stresses decrease in proportion of the distance
from the through the tube bolt at the rear end of the fuselage cage.
Except for cosmetic reasons, why remove the dent?
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
>
>I had a similar dent near the front of the tube but it was close enough to
>the end that I could get a special 16" reach c-clamp to it. I made a set of
>wooden dies, male and female and straightened it that way. Then I made a
>.006, rolled doubler about 12" long and put it around the spot, riveting
>along the seam and around each end. Depending on the severity of your dent,
>you might leave it and put a similar doubler around the tube at that point.
>Another option might be to fabricate a hardwood or metal plug, tapered on
>one end that is a good slide fit inside the tube and drive it through the
>area of the dent, forcing it back out. I think I would go with a doubler in
>either case. I checked with an AI and his recommendation was, with
>Aluminum, straighten as much as you can and then use a doubler.
>
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart(at)ldd.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bourne" <biglar(at)gogittum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 11/20/02 message |
I want it, I want it......................... Do not
Archive.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike and Dixie Shackelford" <dixieshack(at)webtv.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 11/20/02 message of Wed,
Shackelford)
>
> Where is everyone?? Only two messages.....and the one from Possum
> didn't print the body....
>
> Not Kolb related, well, maybe....the airport is 5 minutes away. An old
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dale Sellers" <dsellers(at)sgtcollege.org> |
Good point!!!
Dale Sellers
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jack & Louise
Hart
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: No Traffic
Bob & Dale,
Just a point you might want to consider. A doubler might make sense after
removing a dent from the front end of the tail boom because that is where
the greatest stress occurs from tail feather deflections and tail first
landings. But as one moves toward the tail those stresses decrease in
proportion of the distance from the through the tube bolt at the rear end of
the fuselage cage.
Except for cosmetic reasons, why remove the dent?
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
>
>I had a similar dent near the front of the tube but it was close enough to
>the end that I could get a special 16" reach c-clamp to it. I made a set of
>wooden dies, male and female and straightened it that way. Then I made a
>.006, rolled doubler about 12" long and put it around the spot, riveting
>along the seam and around each end. Depending on the severity of your
dent,
>you might leave it and put a similar doubler around the tube at that point.
>Another option might be to fabricate a hardwood or metal plug, tapered on
>one end that is a good slide fit inside the tube and drive it through the
>area of the dent, forcing it back out. I think I would go with a doubler
in
>either case. I checked with an AI and his recommendation was, with
>Aluminum, straighten as much as you can and then use a doubler.
>
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart(at)ldd.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dale Sellers" <dsellers(at)sgtcollege.org> |
It is Bob who has the dent, not me.
Dale Sellers
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gherkins
Tim-rp3420
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: No Traffic
Dale,
I agree with Jack, just leave it alone. You stated it is on the bottom of
the tube. Who would ever know? Maybe the folks you fly over??? If it
still bothers you that much, I would fill it with Poly fiber fill, and paint
the tube your favorite color.
By the way, how did you get the dent in the first place? Something we can
all learn from?
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack & Louise Hart [mailto:jbhart(at)ldd.net]
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: No Traffic
Bob & Dale,
Just a point you might want to consider. A doubler might make sense after
removing a dent from the front end of the tail boom because that is where
the greatest stress occurs from tail feather deflections and tail first
landings. But as one moves toward the tail those stresses decrease in
proportion of the distance from the through the tube bolt at the rear end of
the fuselage cage.
Except for cosmetic reasons, why remove the dent?
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
>
>I had a similar dent near the front of the tube but it was close enough to
>the end that I could get a special 16" reach c-clamp to it. I made a set of
>wooden dies, male and female and straightened it that way. Then I made a
>.006, rolled doubler about 12" long and put it around the spot, riveting
>along the seam and around each end. Depending on the severity of your
dent,
>you might leave it and put a similar doubler around the tube at that point.
>Another option might be to fabricate a hardwood or metal plug, tapered on
>one end that is a good slide fit inside the tube and drive it through the
>area of the dent, forcing it back out. I think I would go with a doubler
in
>either case. I checked with an AI and his recommendation was, with
>Aluminum, straighten as much as you can and then use a doubler.
>
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart(at)ldd.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bourne" <biglar(at)gogittum.com> |
Dale:
I mentioned quite a while ago, that I'd dropped the wing, and dented
the leading edge. Once again, not structural, but it looked bad, and was
right in front of my nose when I walked by. I blocked it up on the
workbench with the dent down. Then inserted a length of water pipe, shimmed
the back end to match the thickness of the aluminum in the leading edge, and
hit it with a hammer...............not too hard. The dent was just about
gone, and smoothed the rest with poly-fill. That tail boom's a lot heavier,
but you may be able to adapt the technique. GoGittum Lar
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gherkins Tim-rp3420" <rp3420(at)motorola.com>
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: No Traffic
>
> Dale,
> I agree with Jack, just leave it alone. You stated it is on the bottom of
the tube. Who would ever know? Maybe the folks you fly over??? If it
still bothers you that much, I would fill it with Poly fiber fill, and paint
the tube your favorite color.
> By the way, how did you get the dent in the first place? Something we can
all learn from?
> Tim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jack & Louise Hart [mailto:jbhart(at)ldd.net]
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: No Traffic
>
>
> Bob & Dale,
>
> Just a point you might want to consider. A doubler might make sense after
removing a dent from the front end of the tail boom because that is where
the greatest stress occurs from tail feather deflections and tail first
landings. But as one moves toward the tail those stresses decrease in
proportion of the distance from the through the tube bolt at the rear end of
the fuselage cage.
>
> Except for cosmetic reasons, why remove the dent?
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Jackson, MO
>
> >
> >I had a similar dent near the front of the tube but it was close enough
to
> >the end that I could get a special 16" reach c-clamp to it. I made a set
of
> >wooden dies, male and female and straightened it that way. Then I made a
> >.006, rolled doubler about 12" long and put it around the spot, riveting
> >along the seam and around each end. Depending on the severity of your
dent,
> >you might leave it and put a similar doubler around the tube at that
point.
> >Another option might be to fabricate a hardwood or metal plug, tapered on
> >one end that is a good slide fit inside the tube and drive it through the
> >area of the dent, forcing it back out. I think I would go with a doubler
in
> >either case. I checked with an AI and his recommendation was, with
> >Aluminum, straighten as much as you can and then use a doubler.
> >
>
>
> Jack & Louise Hart
> jbhart(at)ldd.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gherkins Tim-rp3420 <rp3420(at)motorola.com> |
Dale,
My bad! Bob, Give us the low down on how you obtained the dent. I want to keep
from doing it in the future.
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Sellers [mailto:dsellers(at)sgtcollege.org]
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: No Traffic
It is Bob who has the dent, not me.
Dale Sellers
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gherkins
Tim-rp3420
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: No Traffic
Dale,
I agree with Jack, just leave it alone. You stated it is on the bottom of
the tube. Who would ever know? Maybe the folks you fly over??? If it
still bothers you that much, I would fill it with Poly fiber fill, and paint
the tube your favorite color.
By the way, how did you get the dent in the first place? Something we can
all learn from?
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack & Louise Hart [mailto:jbhart(at)ldd.net]
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: No Traffic
Bob & Dale,
Just a point you might want to consider. A doubler might make sense after
removing a dent from the front end of the tail boom because that is where
the greatest stress occurs from tail feather deflections and tail first
landings. But as one moves toward the tail those stresses decrease in
proportion of the distance from the through the tube bolt at the rear end of
the fuselage cage.
Except for cosmetic reasons, why remove the dent?
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
>
>I had a similar dent near the front of the tube but it was close enough to
>the end that I could get a special 16" reach c-clamp to it. I made a set of
>wooden dies, male and female and straightened it that way. Then I made a
>.006, rolled doubler about 12" long and put it around the spot, riveting
>along the seam and around each end. Depending on the severity of your
dent,
>you might leave it and put a similar doubler around the tube at that point.
>Another option might be to fabricate a hardwood or metal plug, tapered on
>one end that is a good slide fit inside the tube and drive it through the
>area of the dent, forcing it back out. I think I would go with a doubler
in
>either case. I checked with an AI and his recommendation was, with
>Aluminum, straighten as much as you can and then use a doubler.
>
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart(at)ldd.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | possums <possums(at)mindspring.com> |
>
>Also notice how low the doors are and those wing tips. Maybe it isn't a
>Kolb?
>
>Rick Neilsen
>Redrive VW powered MKIII
It's not - but it's close.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gherkins Tim-rp3420 <rp3420(at)motorola.com> |
| Subject: | Inspection holes |
Kolbers,
Here's something to talk about. I am starting to cover my Firestar II, and I have
some ideas where to place my inspection hole rings. I am sure there are many
of you that have had your Kolb for many years and wished you had inspection
holes in specific areas of your wing panels or else where.
Where would you place inspection rings?
Thanks,
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: possums [mailto:possums(at)mindspring.com]
Subject: Kolb-List:
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Inspection holes |
> Where would you place inspection rings?
> Tim
Tim/Gents:
Funny you should ask.
Big Lar just asked me bc for some ideas and I
posted pics on my index page. Took them down
yesterday. See if I can scrounge them up again
and put back on the index page.
Basically, used 5 for each wing panel.
Two (one on each side of the drag strut bolt) just
inboard of inboard rib.
One on the inside nose of the inboard rib to check
lateral bracing on front of main spar and noses of
main ribs.
One just aft of main spare "H" brace bolt and drag
strut attachment.
One between end of main spar and bow tip to get at
inside of strobe/nav light and check bow tip
bracing.
If you still want to see the pics, I will post to
my index page tonight. Right now I am going to
load up the yellow rocket, my DRZ400E (strictly)
off road dirtbike thumper and hit the woods in the
Coosa Wildlife Management Area. Beautiful day to
get muddy. Been raining for two days straight,
but the sun is out this afternoon. :-)
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Leonard S.Voelker" <lenvoelker(at)ccis.com> |
Hi, Folks,
Let me introduce myself. My name is Leonard Voelker but I prefer to be simply called
Len. I retired from NASA Dryden Flight Research center last April after
22 years with them. Before that I was with the Flight Dynamics Lab at Wright Patterson
Air Force Base and before that at LTV and before that at Lockheed Ga.
At Lockheed I was assigned to the experimental flutter group simply because I
had been a low speed wind tunnel driver at the University of Wash. while attending
school. I eventually got a BS degree in Aeronautics and Astronautics there
in 1964. I've been in the flutter discipline (structural dynamics and aeroelasticity)
ever since trying to save the world from that terrible aeronautics
scourge. What a wonderful career I've had and mostly by chance since flutter is
usually taught only at the graduate level. In my case it was all on-the-job
training for about 40 years. If any of you have had flutter type experiences or
questions I would especially welcome hearing from you, on line or off.
I live on the high (Mohave) desert in California City, CA which is about 100 miles
north of Los Angeles and am thoroughly spoiled by the 350 days or so of VFR
weather per year although it does get windy here sometimes. The world's largest
wind farm is only about 30 miles away and is there for a reason.
As a future retirement toy I started building a Kolb Mark III Classic back in1999
but switched to the early Xtra version (#16) when they came out. Progress has
been slow but the airframe is now nearly complete. I have yet to cover and
paint it, finish installing the instrumentation, and installing an engine.
Engine selection has been my biggest worry. I very much want an 80 hp four stroke
with a redrive for the perceived performance, reliability, range and fuel economy
but can't afford the Rotax 912. Possible alternatives under consideration
include various VW conversions, an Atkins rotary, and the BMW. Any other suggestions?
I am not an experienced propulsion jock (I especially don' t have a
clue regarding two-strokes) and so I will need to rely very heavily on the fabulous
experience of you listers for advice. I would especially like to hear more
from Richard Neilsen (VW) and Hans van Alphen (BMW), perhaps off line since
you guys have been there, done that.
Len Voelker - The Flutter Nut
Early Mark III Xtra/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Volum" <pvolum(at)etsmiami.com> |
Hello Len, and welcome!
With your background and experience, you will no doubt be a great
addition to the Kolb list.
I have had a personal problem with aileron flutter on my Mk III (912 /
Warp Drive).
In brief - I bought it in flying condition, took it apart, refurbished
it and rebuilt it.
Before the restoration, she flew fine at speeds up to 100MPH, but since
I rebuilt her, I've had aileron flutter problems. At first the flutter
would start at 80MPH, but I've since added an additional outboard hinge
to reduce the amount of flexing, and drooped both ailerons by about 1/4
of an inch to keep them under load even during level flight. The
flutter now doesn't start until I reach 90MPH.
The flutter starts quickly and gets dangerously violent. Cutting power
and pulling back to bleed off speed gets rid of it, but this has to be
done damned quickly. During the flight tests I made while "tweaking"
the ailerons and trying them out, I became fairly adept at getting rid
of the flutter quickly, but I still had an eye on the BRS just-in-case.
The archives are brimming with information about flutter on the Mk III
which makes me believe it is a fairly common occurrence. I attribute the
cause on mine to be the added weight of the new paint. I considered
ordering the counterweight kit that Kolb offers, but decided against it.
The "sweet spot" on the Mk III lies in the 55-75MPH range, so I now just
think of the Vne as being 85 vs. the previous 100.
If you ever come down to Miami, I would like very much to meet you and
get your "hands on" opinion should you feel there is another way I could
eliminate the flutter without having to install counterbalance weights.
Peter Volum
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Leonard
S.Voelker
Subject: Kolb-List: New Lister
Hi, Folks,
Let me introduce myself. My name is Leonard Voelker but I prefer to be
simply called Len.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Timandjan(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Inspection holes |
In a message dated 11/21/02 11:24:12 AM, rp3420(at)motorola.com writes:
Kolbers,
Here's something to talk about. I am starting to cover my Firestar II, and I
have some ideas where to place my inspection hole rings. I am sure there are
many of you that have had your Kolb for many years and wished you had
inspection holes in specific areas of your wing panels or else where.
Where would you place inspection rings?
Thanks,
Tim >>
I just had to replace a wingtip Kunzelman strobe, the wire broke in the wing
during removal and I am sure glad that I had put inspenction rings in the
area which made it possible for me to get to the wires. Planning ahead sure
helps.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeremy Casey" <jrcasey(at)ldl.net> |
Peter,
Without sounding like a pompous jerk, why haven't you installed
the counter-balances??? You went to the trouble of repainting the plane
and even "tweaked" on the ailerons in an attempt to fix the problem
(even adding an extra set of hinges to stiffen the thing up) when
mass-balancing is the PROVEN fix!!! I say this in all friendly
concern...you are playing with fire. (We don't need a
Kolb/flutter/structural failure in the NTSB archives...)
Your concerned fellow Kolber,
Jeremy Casey
jrcasey(at)ldl.net
Hello Len, and welcome!
With your background and experience, you will no doubt be a great
addition to the Kolb list.
I have had a personal problem with aileron flutter on my Mk III (912 /
Warp Drive).
In brief - I bought it in flying condition, took it apart, refurbished
it and rebuilt it.
Before the restoration, she flew fine at speeds up to 100MPH, but since
I rebuilt her, I've had aileron flutter problems. At first the flutter
would start at 80MPH, but I've since added an additional outboard hinge
to reduce the amount of flexing, and drooped both ailerons by about 1/4
of an inch to keep them under load even during level flight. The
flutter now doesn't start until I reach 90MPH.
The flutter starts quickly and gets dangerously violent. Cutting power
and pulling back to bleed off speed gets rid of it, but this has to be
done damned quickly. During the flight tests I made while "tweaking"
the ailerons and trying them out, I became fairly adept at getting rid
of the flutter quickly, but I still had an eye on the BRS just-in-case.
The archives are brimming with information about flutter on the Mk III
which makes me believe it is a fairly common occurrence. I attribute the
cause on mine to be the added weight of the new paint. I considered
ordering the counterweight kit that Kolb offers, but decided against it.
The "sweet spot" on the Mk III lies in the 55-75MPH range, so I now just
think of the Vne as being 85 vs. the previous 100.
If you ever come down to Miami, I would like very much to meet you and
get your "hands on" opinion should you feel there is another way I could
eliminate the flutter without having to install counterbalance weights.
Peter Volum
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Leonard
S.Voelker
Subject: Kolb-List: New Lister
Hi, Folks,
Let me introduce myself. My name is Leonard Voelker but I prefer to be
simply called Len.
==
Contribution
=
=
=
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gherkins Tim-rp3420 <rp3420(at)motorola.com> |
| Subject: | Inspection holes |
John,
When you get a chance, post the pictures.
Thanks,
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: John Hauck [mailto:jhauck(at)sw.rr.com]
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Inspection holes
> Where would you place inspection rings?
> Tim
Tim/Gents:
Funny you should ask.
Big Lar just asked me bc for some ideas and I
posted pics on my index page. Took them down
yesterday. See if I can scrounge them up again
and put back on the index page.
Basically, used 5 for each wing panel.
Two (one on each side of the drag strut bolt) just
inboard of inboard rib.
One on the inside nose of the inboard rib to check
lateral bracing on front of main spar and noses of
main ribs.
One just aft of main spare "H" brace bolt and drag
strut attachment.
One between end of main spar and bow tip to get at
inside of strobe/nav light and check bow tip
bracing.
If you still want to see the pics, I will post to
my index page tonight. Right now I am going to
load up the yellow rocket, my DRZ400E (strictly)
off road dirtbike thumper and hit the woods in the
Coosa Wildlife Management Area. Beautiful day to
get muddy. Been raining for two days straight,
but the sun is out this afternoon. :-)
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wayne" <boyter(at)mcsi.net> |
| Subject: | Fw: [cgshawk] HAC Carb Conversions Now Available!!! |
Has any one try this new (high altitude compensating carb kit)
Wayne Boyter
Kolb Mark III
Rotax 582
72" Warp drive three blade prop.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Travis" <slowflyer(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Fwd: [cgshawk] HAC Carb Conversions Now Available!!!
>
>
> >From: "Tom Olenik" <olenik-aviation(at)buyitsellitfixit.com>
> >Reply-To: cgshawk(at)yahoogroups.com
> >To: "Cgshawk(at)Yahoogroups. Com"
> >Subject: [cgshawk] HAC Carb Conversions Now Available!!!
> >Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:23:44 -0400
> >
> >Hi guys,
> >
> >I talked to Chuck and he said it would be ok if I posted this news
release
> >here. This got sent out to my own mailing list last week and the
response
> >has been pretty good so far. As of today, I could probably fill another
10
> >orders in the short term, but after that, there would probably be a
fairly
> >good wait.
> >
> >Tom Olenik
> >Olenik Aviation
> >http://www.buyitsellitfixit.com
> >Phone: 440-293-3368
> >----------------------
> >Hi guys,
> >
> >For over a year now, I have been trying to make a kit to convert existing
> >Bing 54 carburetors to HAC (High Altitude Compensating) Carbs, and the
> >effort has finally panned out. While HAC carbs are nothing new, only
> >recently have all the parts been available separately to convert existing
> >carbs.
> >
> >Over 10 years ago Rotax paid for some R&D that allowed Bing to produce
> >carburetors that would automatically adjust your fuel/air mixture
according
> >to density altitude. This means that jets would never need to be changed
> >for altitude or climate changes. Some people who ran these carbs flight
> >tested them up over legal VFR altitudes. The carburetors were really the
> >same as the standard carb except one carb would have an additional barbed
> >fitting that a line would go to from a compensating chamber, and the
> >jetting
> >in them was changed. The compensating chamber itself has been the real
> >difficult issue.
> >
> >A few years ago, Bing standardized the Bing 54 carb so that a plug could
> >simply be removed and the additional barbed fitting added. This would
make
> >it possible to convert that carb to HAC. However, since Rotax paid for
the
> >R&D, Bing was prohibited from selling the HAC chamber to anyone except
> >Rotax. In addition, Rotax would only sell the HAC chamber complete with
> >the
> >carburetors, air-filters, lines and the whole works already installed and
> >ready to go for a premium price. Most people were not willing to pay the
> >$600 - $800 that they cost over the years and there was little demand for
> >them. This lead to Rotax discontinuing the HAC carbs in the Spring of
> >2002.
> >Since Rotax is no longer selling them, Bing is now offering the HAC
chamber
> >as a separate part which makes the conversion possible.
> >
> >As a result, just 4 days ago, I was finally able to source all the
> >components needed to convert a regular set of Bing 54 carbs to HAC. I am
> >now offering these together in a couple of kits described below:
> >
> >Basic HAC Conversion Kit: This kit includes the HAC chamber, the
necessary
> >amount of line, clamps, fittings and jets to do all the work your self.
It
> >does not include a new air-filter, although I strongly recommend using an
> >approved single dual filter. Running two individual filters can lead to
> >problems with the HAC system. The correct filter is available from us
and
> >usually a few of them are in stock. This basic kit will cost $169.03 for
a
> >582 or $198.79 for a dual carb 503. The 503 requires more jets to be
> >changed, so that is the difference in the cost. This kit will require
the
> >owner to change the jets in their existing carbs, add the barb fitting to
> >one carb, cut and fit all the lines to the appropriate places on the
carbs,
> >drill a port in their air-filter, and figure out a way of securing the
HAC
> >chamber close to the carbs. If you are not comfortable doing all this,
> >then
> >perhaps the deluxe kit may be appropriate.
> >
> >Deluxe HAC Conversion Kit: This kit includes everything that the basic
kit
> >does plus the air-filter. We also do most of the work for you. What you
> >will get with this kit is a HAC chamber already secured to a new
air-filter
> >by safety wire with all of the lines already cut to length and clamped in
> >place with the exception of the ends which would clamp to your existing
> >carbs. With this kit you would just need to change the jets in your
> >existing carbs, add a barb fitting to one carb, and clamp the loose ends
of
> >the hoses to the proper fittings on your existing carbs. This kit will
> >cost
> >$235.03 for the 582 or $264.79 for a dual carb 503. If you wish, you can
> >send in your existing carbs and we will do the conversion for you for
this
> >price. However, any updates or other service that may be needed on your
> >carbs would be extra.
> >
> >We are anticipating that there will be a fairly high demand for these
kits
> >and the supply of some of the components will take some time to catch up
> >with that demand. For this reason we will be charging $100 deposits to
> >secure your position on the waiting list and orders will be filled in the
> >order that the deposit was received. The balance will be charge when the
> >kit is shipped. The first half dozen or so kits should be able to be
> >shipped within 2 weeks. After that it could be a month or more as some
of
> >these parts are not even in the country. This will be the case at least
> >for
> >the near future. When the supply catches up we should be able to fill
> >orders almost immediately. This offer has not yet been made public, so
> >subscribers to the Olenik Aviation newsletter are the first to get this
> >information. News releases will be hitting the magazines in coming
months,
> >however.
> >
> >Below are a couple of pictures of what the HAC system looks like and the
> >same pictures that will be used to help explain the doing the conversion
in
> >the instruction which have yet to be written. In these pictures, one
carb
> >is removed so that you can see where all the lines go. If you notice in
> >the
> >first picture, there is an additional barbed fitting in the carb near the
> >float bowl and next to the fuel line inlet. This is the barbed fitting
> >that
> >must be added and it is only added to one of the two carbs. It is
> >possible,
> >if you have an older carb, you may not be able to add this fitting. If
> >your
> >carb has a screw plugging a port in this area, then you should be good to
> >go. If you see no screw, plug, or place for a fitting in this area, you
> >would need at least one new carb before doing the conversion. When
bought
> >with the HAC conversion kit, we will sell a new Bing 54 for a special
price
> >of $150. If in doubt, check with us to see if your carb can be
converted.
> >
> >For questions and ordering, e-mail me at olenik(at)buyitsellitfixit.com or
> >call: 440-293-3368
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
>
>
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Inspection holes |
> Two (one on each side of the drag strut bolt) just
> "inboard" of inboard rib.
Guys:
The above should have read "just "outboard" of the
inboard rib."
Xin loi,
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Beauford Tuton" <beauford(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FireFly Ailerons??? |
Brother Gherardini....
I had the early plans and built mine to 15 inches.... I am not sure whether
11 or 9 is correct, but I can absolutely assure you that 15 inches will give
the average human forearms like Popeye in about two hours of touch and
go's... if the Kolb mafia in London say 11 now, betcha you can take that to
the bank... I , too, redrilled the linkage and relocated the rods... helped
a lot and is acceptable now... I'll leave the 15 inchers on there... I think
the extra chord helps with lowering the stall and I imagine it adds some
bouyancy to the power-off flare for landing... with my flabby butt in there
it wants to behave like a Buick strapped to a feather duster anyway... I
sure wouldn't want to go scratching around to remove any area from the wing
on mine...
Fer what it's worth....
Beauford, The Aluminum Butcher of Brandon
FF#076
(nothin' big's come off yet.....)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack & Louise Hart" <jbhart(at)ldd.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: FireFly Ailerons???
>
> >
> >In reading different threads, I have seen mention of different Aileron
chords on the Firefly. I am about to the Aileron building point and
According to my print., my ailerons should be 11 inchs wide. I called Kolb
to confirm this, and asked if there haad been any changes since my kit was
shipped to original owner..19 months ago or so. They said no..11 inchs is
correct.
> >Can anyone here expand on the different Aileron widths over the years and
their effect on the little bird??
> >
> >Don Gherardini
> >FireFly 098
> >
> Don,
>
> I may be the culprit that is spreading incorrect information about the
current FireFly aileron chord length. I used the words "nine inch chord" in
a post not long ago. I checked my FireFly flight log, and this is what I
found.
>
> "October 1, 1999, flight #7, about ten minutes, 2.29tt. ..... Before
heading out I called to talk to them (TNK) about the washer idea. Chris
Jerome thought it was a good idea. He also said that he had researched the
aileron problem, and that some of the early FireFlys had 15" chord ailerons.
Their FireFly had 9" chord ailerons. ......"
>
> I will update to the info in:
>
> http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly26.html
>
> to reflect that eleven inches is the current FireFly design aileron chord.
At this point, would I think about building another set of ailerons? No.
Stick pressures at cruise with nine inch ailerons remained too heavy at
cruise, and it was not until I changed the push rod moment arm and limited
ailerons defection to 20 degrees down that aileron stick pressures became
reasonable.
>
> My apologies for the confusion.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Jackson, MO
>
>
> Jack & Louise Hart
> jbhart(at)ldd.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
> The archives are brimming with information about flutter on the Mk III
> which makes me believe it is a fairly common occurrence. I attribute the
> cause on mine to be the added weight of the new paint. I considered
> ordering the counterweight kit that Kolb offers, but decided against it.
> The "sweet spot" on the Mk III lies in the 55-75MPH range, so I now just
> think of the Vne as being 85 vs. the previous 100.
>
> If you ever come down to Miami, I would like very much to meet you and
> get your "hands on" opinion should you feel there is another way I could
> eliminate the flutter without having to install counterbalance weights.
>
> Peter Volum
Peter/Gents:
Short and sweet.
The cure for aileron flutter on the Mark III and
any other Kolb aircraft is the FACTORY DESIGNED
AND FABRICATED AILERON COUNTERBALANCE WEIGHTS.
Aileron flutter can and will violent, snatching
the stick out of your hand, then beating you to
death with it if the aileron linkage/system and or
wing does not fail first.
What is your hangup with the proven solution to
the problem? I had terrible aileron flutter
problems until the day I put the counterbalance
weights on my Mark III. From that day forth, not
a hint of flutter at any speed, in all kinds of
turbulence. Nada, nothing. I am happy and my
airplane is a joy to fly. Trying to fly when you
know you have a flutter problem is grossly
uncomfortable and dangerous. Not only to
yourself, but your passenger or the person on the
ground you will kill or maim when you fall out of
the sky.
"Don't want to put counterbalance weights on."
Your choice.
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Inspection holes |
> When you get a chance, post the pictures.
> Thanks,
> Tim
Tim/Gang:
You got'em:
http://home.sw.rr.com/jhauck/Miss%20P'fer%20Construction/
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bob n <ronoy(at)shentel.net> |
Re: the guy in the Cessna that hit the goose. Insurance guys call that a
goosadent.
Bob N.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
> She is steady as a rock until the flutter starts, and the flutter only
> starts when I reach 90MPH (actually, 92). As I never fly at that speed
> (unless I'm intentionally trying to test it), and as the speed at which
> the flutter starts is consistent and predictable, where is the danger in
> considering my Vne 85MPH?
> Peter
Peter/Gents:
The point at which aileron flutter is initiated is
not predictable all the time. Flutter is the Kolb
aircraft is also triggered by turbulence, a bump
in the air (just a little one will do it), the way
you hold the stick, and anyother number of ways.
You are flying a time bomb without aileron
counterbalance weights. The weights weigh next to
nothing. They are easy to install, after the
fact. All the instructions for installing are in
the archives. I prefer to install mine after I
have covered and painted. Simple task. Proven to
work. Makes life comfortable and safe.
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Volum" <pvolum(at)etsmiami.com> |
Thanks John.
I had already replied to Jeremy when I read your message. Something
about the way you said the same thing has hit home. I am now going to
order the counterbalance weights without further delay.
I am curious to know, however, how many Mk III pilots are flying with
the counterbalance weights, and how many without. The fact that mine
flew fine without them (until I added a new coat of paint) shows that
not all need them.
If almost all need them, then I feel Kolb should include them as part of
the kit, as the alternative of discovering that you need them when you
are "up there" could be dangerous.
Peter
Peter/Gents:
Short and sweet.
The cure for aileron flutter on the Mark III and
any other Kolb aircraft is the FACTORY DESIGNED
AND FABRICATED AILERON COUNTERBALANCE WEIGHTS.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Chmielewski" <edchmiel(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
Peter and Kolbers,
Flutter is, as John Hauck pointed out, very unpredictable and can
occur under certain conditions before Vne. One variable is wear and slop in
the linkage and hinges which can increase over time. Flutter at our slower
speeds is still flutter and needs to be eliminated, as it can be
catastrophic in just a few seconds. Good luck with the counterbalances,
Peter.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Volum" <pvolum(at)etsmiami.com>
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Aileron flutter
>
> Thanks John.
>
> I had already replied to Jeremy when I read your message. Something
> about the way you said the same thing has hit home. I am now going to
> order the counterbalance weights without further delay.
>
> I am curious to know, however, how many Mk III pilots are flying with
> the counterbalance weights, and how many without. The fact that mine
> flew fine without them (until I added a new coat of paint) shows that
> not all need them.
>
> If almost all need them, then I feel Kolb should include them as part of
> the kit, as the alternative of discovering that you need them when you
> are "up there" could be dangerous.
>
> Peter
>
>
> Peter/Gents:
>
> Short and sweet.
>
> The cure for aileron flutter on the Mark III and
> any other Kolb aircraft is the FACTORY DESIGNED
> AND FABRICATED AILERON COUNTERBALANCE WEIGHTS.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | possums <possums(at)mindspring.com> |
>
>Mike is alive and well and flying from his home field near Panama City to
>Moultrie GA (home of Maule aircraft) Saturday morning. He has tweeked his
>"F word" (B00-0-0) to fly it's best and she is running great. He will stop
>in Quincy FL where I will join him in my FireFly (fanfare?) for the last
>60 miles of the trip. The advertised purpose of the trip was a big car
>show at Spence field. I have heard that a number of other Southern
>aviators are joining in so it may become a fly-in. The forecast looks
>good. Hope to see some of you there.
>
>Duane the plane, Tallahassee, FL FireFly SN 007, 447, Ivo and Mk3/912 in
>workshop.
Here's a picture, but don't know if it's his old plane or his new one.
http://www.homestead.com/southernflyers/Photo2.html
http://www.homestead.com/southernflyers/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bob n <ronoy(at)shentel.net> |
Slightly off the subject of even FAT ULs.
Go to www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/photo/visitorsguide
for a good look at the National Air & Space Museum's Steven F.
Udvar-Hazy Center now under construction at Dulles. Planned opening Dec
'03
Bob N. hoping to last
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Pike <rwpike(at)preferred.com> |
Pete: Put the counterbalances on.
Easy, uncomplicated.
Peace of mind.
We don't want to lose you.
And they offer the added benefit that if some obnoxious moron is fooling
around with your opposite wingtip, you snatch the one at your end down and
the one in front of him bats him upside the head.
What more could you ask for?
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>Hello Len, and welcome!
>
>With your background and experience, you will no doubt be a great
>addition to the Kolb list.
>
>I have had a personal problem with aileron flutter on my Mk III (912 /
>Warp Drive).
>
>In brief - I bought it in flying condition, took it apart, refurbished
>it and rebuilt it.
>
>Before the restoration, she flew fine at speeds up to 100MPH, but since
>I rebuilt her, I've had aileron flutter problems. At first the flutter
>would start at 80MPH, but I've since added an additional outboard hinge
>to reduce the amount of flexing, and drooped both ailerons by about 1/4
>of an inch to keep them under load even during level flight. The
>flutter now doesn't start until I reach 90MPH.
>
>The flutter starts quickly and gets dangerously violent. Cutting power
>and pulling back to bleed off speed gets rid of it, but this has to be
>done damned quickly. During the flight tests I made while "tweaking"
>the ailerons and trying them out, I became fairly adept at getting rid
>of the flutter quickly, but I still had an eye on the BRS just-in-case.
>
>The archives are brimming with information about flutter on the Mk III
>which makes me believe it is a fairly common occurrence. I attribute the
>cause on mine to be the added weight of the new paint. I considered
>ordering the counterweight kit that Kolb offers, but decided against it.
>The "sweet spot" on the Mk III lies in the 55-75MPH range, so I now just
>think of the Vne as being 85 vs. the previous 100.
>
>If you ever come down to Miami, I would like very much to meet you and
>get your "hands on" opinion should you feel there is another way I could
>eliminate the flutter without having to install counterbalance weights.
>
>Peter Volum
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Leonard
>S.Voelker
>To: "Kolb-List Digest List"
>Subject: Kolb-List: New Lister
>
>
>
>Hi, Folks,
>
>Let me introduce myself. My name is Leonard Voelker but I prefer to be
>simply called Len.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry" <tswartz(at)hydrosoft.net> |
Peter,
My Mk III with 912 didn't flutter for the first 20 or 30 hrs. but then one
day it did and I found if I slowed down real quick it would stop. The speed
at which the flutter would seemed to get lower as time went on and I was
always able to catch it in before it got very bad. Then one day it shook
pretty good and I said enough. I have the counter weights and never a
flutter since. Get the counter weights, don't take any chances.
Now if I take my feet off the rudder peddles I will get a little oscillation
but it stops as soon as I put my feet back on the pedals.
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Peter Volum
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Aileron flutter
Thanks John.
I had already replied to Jeremy when I read your message. Something
about the way you said the same thing has hit home. I am now going to
order the counterbalance weights without further delay.
I am curious to know, however, how many Mk III pilots are flying with
the counterbalance weights, and how many without. The fact that mine
flew fine without them (until I added a new coat of paint) shows that
not all need them.
If almost all need them, then I feel Kolb should include them as part of
the kit, as the alternative of discovering that you need them when you
are "up there" could be dangerous.
Peter
Peter/Gents:
Short and sweet.
The cure for aileron flutter on the Mark III and
any other Kolb aircraft is the FACTORY DESIGNED
AND FABRICATED AILERON COUNTERBALANCE WEIGHTS.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
| From: | ul15rhb(at)juno.com |
Guys,
The Original Firestar and Mark II never had aileron counter weights. I've
never had a problem with aileron flutter of any kind. Maybe it has
something to do with full-span ailerons and slower speeds. I've made the
ailerons heavier by adding more paint over the original.
Ralph
>
>
> > She is steady as a rock until the flutter starts, and the flutter
> only
> > starts when I reach 90MPH (actually, 92). As I never fly at that
> speed
> > (unless I'm intentionally trying to test it), and as the speed at
> which
> > the flutter starts is consistent and predictable, where is the
> danger in
> > considering my Vne 85MPH?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jerb <ulflyer(at)airmail.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
Gee Peter,
You have a very small operation window. Any slight rapid decent would put
you into the potential speed range. If what John Hauck says is true, that
being there not difficult to install after the plane has been covered, why
not do it and sleep better at night. Once flutter starts it rapidly
increases in intensity and can be difficult or impossible to stop. The
very violent nature itself can further loosen things up making the aircraft
more prone to flutter. I strongly urge you to reconsider and put them on
ASAP.
jerb
>
>
> > She is steady as a rock until the flutter starts, and the flutter only
> > starts when I reach 90MPH (actually, 92). As I never fly at that speed
> > (unless I'm intentionally trying to test it), and as the speed at which
> > the flutter starts is consistent and predictable, where is the danger in
> > considering my Vne 85MPH?
>
> > Peter
>
>Peter/Gents:
>
>The point at which aileron flutter is initiated is
>not predictable all the time. Flutter is the Kolb
>aircraft is also triggered by turbulence, a bump
>in the air (just a little one will do it), the way
>you hold the stick, and anyother number of ways.
>
>You are flying a time bomb without aileron
>counterbalance weights. The weights weigh next to
>nothing. They are easy to install, after the
>fact. All the instructions for installing are in
>the archives. I prefer to install mine after I
>have covered and painted. Simple task. Proven to
>work. Makes life comfortable and safe.
>
>john h
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vincehallam(at)aol.com |
leen....1957 I was co jockeying on Bristol Britannia, We fired small
explosive charges on the side of the fin at small speed incremnts at
something like VNE plus 5 ?percent [ up to Vdf ] ,just to make sure we d be
below a dodgy harmonic flutter speed.Bonk tests we called them.When the
thrumming showed signs of not dying away that was it ,we backed off. We all
wore chutes,What a scramble that would have been,4 crew ,370 knots plus tas
,no fin, airliner type pressure doors.
by the way real reason to write,,can you post any info on Akins Rotary?
vnz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vincehallam(at)aol.com |
Hi more bullshit ...I got a nasty case of flutter taking a Meteor jet out for
the Korean busines from UK probably meant to be about 15-20 sectors ,It was
hardly noticeabl;e at first I thought it was the elevators reported and
checked after evey flight,cable tensions balances ,settings .changed tabs
changed elevators.eventually changed whole back half of the aircraft.Then
they changed the pilot.It didnt help ,,when It got to india they scrapped
it!! However I read a test pilots report many years later about their
flutter problems and it was due to some fancy new springtab ailerons of which
it so happened Id had the very first production set
even so dont mess with it that just happened to be 8 tons of really
rugged airoplane....................................vnz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
Dear Listers,
We are quickly approaching the end of November and the official end of the
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Email List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Volum" <pvolum(at)etsmiami.com> |
Hi Terry.
From the responses received, the decision is a no brainer. I've already
ordered the kit.
My rudder behaves exactly as yours does. Never gave it much thought, as
it is negligible at all speeds and only happens when I take my feet
right off the pedals. Resting my feet on the pedals stops it, but now
I'm wondering...
Is this fairly common?
Has this situation turned nasty with anybody else out there?
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Aileron flutter
Peter,
My Mk III with 912 didn't flutter for the first 20 or 30 hrs. but then
one
day it did
Get the counter weights, don't take any chances.
Now if I take my feet off the rudder peddles I will get a little
oscillation
but it stops as soon as I put my feet back on the pedals.
Terry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Pike <rwpike(at)preferred.com> |
Had the same problem, made a counterbalance for the rudder, cured it.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>Peter,
>Now if I take my feet off the rudder peddles I will get a little oscillation
>but it stops as soon as I put my feet back on the pedals.
>
>Terry
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
> Is this fairly common?
>
> Has this situation turned nasty with anybody else out there?
>
> Peter
Peter/Gents:
I think rudder flutter or shuffle, is pretty
common among Kolbs.
My MK III would start a slow, almost
imperceptible, shuffle if I relaxed pressure on
the rudder pedals. Usually occurred on long cross
countries.
If allowed to accelerate, it would work up a
pretty good shake.
Redesigning my rudder trim tab and doubling up on
rudder pedal springs put a stop to rudder flutter.
Sometimes when it was not perceptible through the
pedals, I would notice a tiny bit of shuffle at
the wing tips.
Richard Pike designed and installed a rudder
counter balance weight, I think, for his MK III.
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Volum" <pvolum(at)etsmiami.com> |
Any photos Richard?
P.
Had the same problem, made a counterbalance for the rudder, cured it.
Richard Pike
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rudder Flutter |
| From: | ul15rhb(at)juno.com |
Guys,
I experienced severe rudder flutter about 13 years ago in the Original
Firestar (same one I've got today). I happened to be flying over a
nuclear power plant smokestack (back in the days when nobody would think
otherwise) and I used to fly with my feet on the floor panel. As I flew
over the stack, the plane initiated a slow yaw oscillation that was the
same as going full rudder one way and the other in succession. I could
not stop it using rudder, so I pulled up into a stall and got it stopped.
There was no damage but this could have progressed to the point where the
cage could have suffered cracks in the welds. What I suspect happened is
the thermal energy from the stack induced the yawing action and without
feet on the pedals gave it enough energy to continue the oscillation. The
sway from the long boom tube may have played a part in that too.
I always fly with the feet on the pedals and never over plant
smokestacks.
Ralph
>
>
> > Is this fairly common?
> >
> > Has this situation turned nasty with anybody else out there?
> >
> > Peter
>
> Peter/Gents:
>
> I think rudder flutter or shuffle, is pretty
> common among Kolbs.
>
> My MK III would start a slow, almost
> imperceptible, shuffle if I relaxed pressure on
> the rudder pedals. Usually occurred on long cross
> countries.
> If allowed to accelerate, it would work up a
> pretty good shake.
>
> Redesigning my rudder trim tab and doubling up on
> rudder pedal springs put a stop to rudder flutter.
>
> Sometimes when it was not perceptible through the
> pedals, I would notice a tiny bit of shuffle at
> the wing tips.
>
> Richard Pike designed and installed a rudder
> counter balance weight, I think, for his MK III.
>
> john h
>
>
>
=
> Contribution
> Gifts!
> Admin.
> _->
>
> messages.
> ======================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Frank Reynen" <frank_reynen(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
Peter,
Addition of amphib Full Lotus floats on my 912 equipped MKIII keeps my max
speed down to less than 80 MPH.
Dont have counterweights and after 730 hrs have not experienced flutter.
Frank Reynen MKIII/
www.webcom.com/reynen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Volum" <pvolum(at)etsmiami.com>
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Aileron flutter
>
> I am curious to know, however, how many Mk III pilots are flying with
> the counterbalance weights, and how many without. The fact that mine
> flew fine without them (until I added a new coat of paint) shows that
> not all need them.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Pike <rwpike(at)preferred.com> |
| Subject: | Rudder counterbalance |
I made and installed this several years ago. It is very similar to the
counterbalance that goes into the ailerons. The part that sticks to the
front was 4130 steel tubing with a short length of water pipe riveted on
for weight. Had to add a bit extra, as the initial weight was not enough.
Added to it until all movement went away, then riveted and epoxied it in
place and painted it.
The reason I went with the counterweight was because I knew about the
rudder shake but didn't know how bad it was. Vince Nicely (lister-Firestar
II) followed me up one day to watch. I let it get going and he jumped me
quick: "You better make it quit, if I didn't know better, I'd say the
fuselage tube was making sine waves!"
That was enough to convince me.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Here is a link to the web page
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg6.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CaptainRon <CaptainRon(at)theriver.com> |
Hi Len I am pretty much at in the same situation as you. I am also agonizing
over engine selection. The Rotax is out as too expensive and not worth the
bother. Jabiru 80HP is probably the best deal going now if you have your
mind set on a purpose built aircraft motor, its $8500 and it comes with
everything sans the prop. I am on any specific day thinking of either or the
Jabiru 2200, the Great Plains VW, and the 2cycle Hirth. I think they are all
satisfactory for the M3X. I still don't know which way I will go. I would
really like to cut the cage up and modify it to accept a Conti O-200, But I
don't know if I want to waite that long before I take to flight. The O-200
in my opinion would be the best there is for the M3X when installed.
========================
>
> Hi, Folks,
>
> Let me introduce myself. My name is Leonard Voelker but I prefer to be simply
> called Len. I retired from NASA Dryden Flight Research center last April after
> 22 years with them. Before that I was with the Flight Dynamics Lab at Wright
> Patterson Air Force Base and before that at LTV and before that at Lockheed
> Ga. At Lockheed I was assigned to the experimental flutter group simply
> because I had been a low speed wind tunnel driver at the University of Wash.
> while attending school. I eventually got a BS degree in Aeronautics and
> Astronautics there in 1964. I've been in the flutter discipline (structural
> dynamics and aeroelasticity) ever since trying to save the world from that
> terrible aeronautics scourge. What a wonderful career I've had and mostly by
> chance since flutter is usually taught only at the graduate level. In my case
> it was all on-the-job training for about 40 years. If any of you have had
> flutter type experiences or questions I would especially welcome hearing from
> !
> you, on line or off.
>
> I live on the high (Mohave) desert in California City, CA which is about 100
> miles north of Los Angeles and am thoroughly spoiled by the 350 days or so of
> VFR weather per year although it does get windy here sometimes. The world's
> largest wind farm is only about 30 miles away and is there for a reason.
>
> As a future retirement toy I started building a Kolb Mark III Classic back
> in1999 but switched to the early Xtra version (#16) when they came out.
> Progress has been slow but the airframe is now nearly complete. I have yet to
> cover and paint it, finish installing the instrumentation, and installing an
> engine.
>
> Engine selection has been my biggest worry. I very much want an 80 hp four
> stroke with a redrive for the perceived performance, reliability, range and
> fuel economy but can't afford the Rotax 912. Possible alternatives under
> consideration include various VW conversions, an Atkins rotary, and the BMW.
> Any other suggestions? I am not an experienced propulsion jock (I especially
> don' t have a clue regarding two-strokes) and so I will need to rely very
> heavily on the fabulous experience of you listers for advice. I would
> especially like to hear more from Richard Neilsen (VW) and Hans van Alphen
> (BMW), perhaps off line since you guys have been there, done that.
>
> Len Voelker - The Flutter Nut
> Early Mark III Xtra/?
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
| From: | CaptainRon <CaptainRon(at)theriver.com> |
I am glad you brought this subject up. For the simple reason that it has
never occured that there is any aircraft outhere that does not have some
sort of active dampning mechanism. Anyone that flies any aircraft at any
speed should want his controls ballanced. It is indeed a time bomb with the
fuse lit. Russian Roulette is not anywhere on my fun menue. :-) Go ballance
your ailrons asap.
=========================
11/21/02 16:34Peter Volum
> I am curious to know, however, how many Mk III pilots are flying with
> the counterbalance weights, and how many without. The fact that mine
> flew fine without them (until I added a new coat of paint) shows that
> not all need them.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cooley" <johnc(at)datasync.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
Hi Gang,
Never have had any rudder flutter in my Firestar II at any speed.
Later,
John Cooley
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Volum" <pvolum(at)etsmiami.com>
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Aileron flutter
>
> Hi Terry.
>
> >From the responses received, the decision is a no brainer. I've already
> ordered the kit.
>
> My rudder behaves exactly as yours does. Never gave it much thought, as
> it is negligible at all speeds and only happens when I take my feet
> right off the pedals. Resting my feet on the pedals stops it, but now
> I'm wondering...
>
> Is this fairly common?
>
> Has this situation turned nasty with anybody else out there?
>
> Peter
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Aileron flutter
>
>
> Peter,
>
> My Mk III with 912 didn't flutter for the first 20 or 30 hrs. but then
> one
> day it did
>
> Get the counter weights, don't take any chances.
>
> Now if I take my feet off the rudder peddles I will get a little
> oscillation
> but it stops as soon as I put my feet back on the pedals.
>
> Terry
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Fund Raiser Free Gift Shipping Status... |
Dear Listers,
A couple of people have written asking what the shipping status was of
their free List Contribution Gifts. Seemed like some status was in order
and I thought I detail where we're at...
Flight Bag Requests
-------------------
On 11/20/02 I shipped out the first batch of Flight Bag-Only (FBO) gift
requests. I shipped all FBO gift requests I had received from 11/1 to
11/19 except for 3 (Sorry guys!) - I ran out of my first shipment flight
bags! Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore ( http://www.buildersbooks.com
) is supplying me with another batch flight bags which should arrive in
about 2 weeks.
By the way, these are REALLY nice Flight Bags. Extremely well built and
very professional looking. Folds down into a very small size, but will
hold a huge amount of stuff. If you fly, and you've got a lot of stuff,
they you WANT one of these guys. Surf over to the List Contribution page
for details on how to get one of your own!!!
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The Flight Bags have been shipped out US Mail Parcel Post in a large, and I
mean LARGE, padded white plastic envelope. According to the Post Office,
worse case delivery time would be 8 days to destinations on the East Coast,
but indicated it would likely take a lot less time.
Archive CDROM Requests
----------------------
The Archive CDROMs will be mastered and burned on or about December 1 and
should ship out shortly there after. Shipping will be US Mail, Media Rate
in a big padded white envelope. The Archive List data included will be up
to November 30th.
Flight Bag and Archive CDROM Requests
-------------------------------------
These combination orders will ship out when the Archive CDROMs are complete
as described above, likely a little after December 1. The Flight Bag and
the CDROM will be shipped together in the same Giant white padded envelope!
Again, I want to thank Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore for providing
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And finally, I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a
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Email List Administrator
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
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Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Airgriff2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re:counter weights |
In a message dated 11/22/02 11:50:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kolb-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> >I am curious to know, however, how many Mk III pilots are flying with
> >the counterbalance weights, and how many without
My MK3 I built 7 yrs ago had an aileron flutter at 75- 80 mph. It was built
on the heavy side with a good amount of paint. Dennis (old Kolb) said some
mk3,s were showing up with flutter, but was usually a result of building on
the heavy side. He suggested I install the counter weights. I did and flew
the plane to 90 mph. Smooth as silk.
Fly Safe
Bob Griffin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
> My guess is
> that equal tabs on both ailerons (turned down) would help too, as
> would spades. -BB
BB/Gents:
The solution for aileron flutter is factory
counterbalance weights.
I tried trim tabs and passed this on in a msg to
the List last Thursday:
> Put a trim tab on each aileron,
> loading both in the up position. Flew it this way
> to Oshkosh. Still had flutter problems.
HEAVY unbalanced ailerons on Kolb aircraft cause
flutter. Not all Kolbs are plagued with flutter
problems. Those of us that go heavy on the dope
and paint usually end up with flutter. If you
don't fly but 50 mph, you probably will not ever
encounter flutter, no matter how heavy you build
the ailerons.
On the other hand, I have never encountered, nor
have I ever heard of but one aircraft that had
elevator flutter. That aircraft was an old
Twinstar with the mechanical trim tab on one
elevator. Trim tab mechanism came apart and
caused elevator flutter which resulted in
uncontrolled descent and fatal crash.
Rudder and aileron flutter may have another
contributing factor, positioning of the hinges, in
addition to extra weight.
Bottom line is, counterbalance weights fix the
aileron flutter problem.
Experimentation with a lot of the ideas you guys
are tossing around now was done 10, 15 years ago.
No need to reinvent the wheel, but you can if you
want to. :-)
Take care,
john h
PS: 30F when I got up at 0715 this morning.
Beautiful Saturday. Supposed to be in the 50's by
noon. Bet that old MK III will perform like a new
one in this cold air. Might have to give her a
chance.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> |
John and all, I'll admit to trying things my way, at least on my plane...
on any one else's I follow "recommended procedures".
I just like to understand the why behind everything. OK, the factory
counterbalances work, but not necessarily because they balance
the arrangement. If that were the case then every airplane that was
ever designed would have had perfectly (static) balanced controls
and never, ever had flutter problems. Too bad that at our level, it
remains more art than science.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
| From: | ul15rhb(at)juno.com |
John and others,
I've had the Original Firestar up to 90 mph with no signs of flutter. The
ailerons are full-span unlike the new Kolbs. Another thing I didn't
mention in an earlier post, the aileron ribs (with Homer's bumps) were
purposely aligned with the wing ribs. Many Kolbs I've seen aren't build
that way. Not only does it cut drag but may have something to do with the
absence of flutter.
Ralph
>
>
> > My guess is
> > that equal tabs on both ailerons (turned down) would help too, as
> > would spades. -BB
>
> BB/Gents:
>
> The solution for aileron flutter is factory
> counterbalance weights.
>
> I tried trim tabs and passed this on in a msg to
> the List last Thursday:
>
> > Put a trim tab on each aileron,
> > loading both in the up position. Flew it this way
> > to Oshkosh. Still had flutter problems.
>
> HEAVY unbalanced ailerons on Kolb aircraft cause
> flutter. Not all Kolbs are plagued with flutter
> problems. Those of us that go heavy on the dope
> and paint usually end up with flutter. If you
> don't fly but 50 mph, you probably will not ever
> encounter flutter, no matter how heavy you build
> the ailerons.
>
> On the other hand, I have never encountered, nor
> have I ever heard of but one aircraft that had
> elevator flutter. That aircraft was an old
> Twinstar with the mechanical trim tab on one
> elevator. Trim tab mechanism came apart and
> caused elevator flutter which resulted in
> uncontrolled descent and fatal crash.
>
> Rudder and aileron flutter may have another
> contributing factor, positioning of the hinges, in
> addition to extra weight.
>
> Bottom line is, counterbalance weights fix the
> aileron flutter problem.
>
> Experimentation with a lot of the ideas you guys
> are tossing around now was done 10, 15 years ago.
> No need to reinvent the wheel, but you can if you
> want to. :-)
>
> Take care,
>
> john h
>
> PS: 30F when I got up at 0715 this morning.
> Beautiful Saturday. Supposed to be in the 50's by
> noon. Bet that old MK III will perform like a new
> one in this cold air. Might have to give her a
> chance.
>
>
>
=
> Contribution
> Gifts!
> Admin.
> _->
>
> messages.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
> OK, the factory
> counterbalances work, but not necessarily because they balance
> the arrangement. Bob Bean
Bob/Gang:
If they don't "balance the arrangement", then what
do they do?
I do not know of anyone who encountered aileron
flutter, installed factory aileron counterbalance
weights, and then encountered flutter again.
If you are bound and determined to try using
aileron trim tabs loaded in the same direction,
try them pushing down rather than up the way I did
it. In normal flight, flaps in the neutral
position, the natural tendency of the flap is to
push down. I will assume that the same thing is
happening to the ailerons. I may or may not be
right in this assumption. If this is true, when I
experimented with trim tabs pushing up on each
aileron, then I may have been aggravating rather
than helping dampen the flutter problem.
Take care,
john h
Take care,
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
> I've had the Original Firestar up to 90 mph with no signs of flutter.
> Ralph
Ralph/Gents:
Some do and some don't. As I have said earlier, I
believe heavy ailerons are a major contributing
factor.
Because you did 90 mph without flutter is no sign
that it won't. You may have lucked out and had
all the ingredients for flutter minus the
"trigger". The trigger can be a small bump in the
air or severe turbulence, or just about anything
to upset the static state of the ailerons and get
them working with/and against each other.
I also built and flew the original Firestar.
Normally, did not encounter flutter, unless in
some type high speed aerobatic maneuver, or
accelerating to high speed to enter an aerobatic
manuever, or decelerating after completing an
aerobatic maneuver.
On the Firestar, when it went into flutter, it was
a very sudden uncontrolled action. The stick was
immediately snatched from my hand and turned
instantly into a blur as it tried to beat me to
death. Immeditate action was chop throttle, get
ahold of the stick somehow, pull aft and lateral
to slow down and load the ailerons.
Another contributing factor to the Mark III
aileron flutter problem may be the hinge
arrangement of the the flaps piggy backed on the
ailerons that are then attached to the trailing
edge of the wing.
I know that slop, no matter how small, in the
aileron linkage system encourages flutter, when
the ailerons are not balanced. However, after
installation of the counterbalance weights, the
ailerons will not flutter no matter how much slop
has been introduced into the system with wear.
I personally do not think flutter is a problem to
play with. I believe after you get into severe
flutter once, you may agree with me. Ask Dick
Rahill. However, sitting on the ground before you
have flown a Kolb is easy to make a lot of
decisions that don't make much sense. Not
speaking of you Ralph, but those on the List that
are making changes or not making changes that have
zero flight experience in a Kolb.
Take care and to each his own,
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CaptainRon <CaptainRon(at)theriver.com> |
The way I see counter ballancing, is to call them inertia arrestors. In
other words in flutter you have a panel moving to opposits rapidly, causing
vibration and at a certain frequency you get into harmonic vibration, and
then you come up on bye bye time. A simple way of stopping that dybamic
movement is by placing the center of gravity either right on the hinge or a
bit further away from the hinge and the aerodynamic force that is causing
the panel to move. So when the panel gets kicked by the airflow up or down
the counter ballance with its inertia wants to keep going the other way,
opposit where the panel goes. Its simple and it works. You have opposit
momentums cancelling each other. It does not let the flutter get started.
============================
11/23/02 10:12Bob Bean
> OK, the factory
> counterbalances work, but not necessarily because they balance
> the arrangement.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
| From: | CaptainRon <CaptainRon(at)theriver.com> |
John the cause of flutter has to do with aerodynamic assymetry of airflow.
On light ailrons I think you may have the same identical vibration causing
buffeting, and I guess most people even sense them, but because of their
lighter mass they may not have enough inertia/energy to create the
sympathetic vibes in the structure that will bring about full blown flutter,
and destrution. There are many factors I can think right off that will
agrevate vibrations into flutter. However in all instances that I can think
of, nabbing it at the source with inertial dampners like counter ballancing
is the cheapest fastest most effective, and imprtantly a no brainer way of
getting rid of that danger.
=======================
> Ralph/Gents:
>
> Some do and some don't. As I have said earlier, I
> believe heavy ailerons are a major contributing
> factor.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
Question? I noticed on the Mark III Xtra that the aileron has a section at
the outer end pointing forward around the end of the wing tip. Is this a
counter balance or just a newer design?
Thanks
pp
----- Original Message -----
From: "CaptainRon" <CaptainRon(at)theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Aileron flutter
>
> John the cause of flutter has to do with aerodynamic assymetry of airflow.
> On light ailrons I think you may have the same identical vibration causing
> buffeting, and I guess most people even sense them, but because of their
> lighter mass they may not have enough inertia/energy to create the
> sympathetic vibes in the structure that will bring about full blown
flutter,
> and destrution. There are many factors I can think right off that will
> agrevate vibrations into flutter. However in all instances that I can
think
> of, nabbing it at the source with inertial dampners like counter
ballancing
> is the cheapest fastest most effective, and imprtantly a no brainer way of
> getting rid of that danger.
>
>
> =======================
> > Ralph/Gents:
> >
> > Some do and some don't. As I have said earlier, I
> > believe heavy ailerons are a major contributing
> > factor.
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Duncan McBride <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | First flight 319DM |
Well, it flies. This morning I took up 319DM for its first flight. I've been
on the ground for a few hours now and I'm only beginning to enjoy it. All the
really important things went well: the wings stayed on, the engine ran fine,
I didn't bend the gear. But it was a busy time and I only had a moment to look
around and think "Wow, I'm really flying this thing!" The flight went according
to plan, climbed straight ahead to 1000', shallow turns to 3000' staying
within gliding distance of the field, and then power off to determine the indicated
airspeed for pre-stall indications. I got a buffet around 35mph IAS two
or three times, and went ahead with two poweroff stalls (definite break at 32
indicated with the left wing dropping a little each time). Landing was fun,
the tailwheel hit a split second before the mains.
The major distraction was that I was only getting 4400 rpm max on the 912. I had
done mag checks at 4000 rpm on the ground, several times, and just didn't think
I had to do a full power runup. I thought if I had to tweak the prop pitch
some it wouldn't be much, and I could do it after flying. So on takeoff, I
advanced the throttle slowly and just about the time I got to 4000 rpm the plane
wanted to fly - the throttle went in the rest of the way and I was climbing
out of ground effect when I noticed it was steady on 4300 rpm. I was climbing
so I stayed with it, but I was kicking myself the whole flight for not setting
the pitch before flying.
The second distraction was the aileron trim. It required right stick pressure
to keep the wings level. It's either a little twist in the wings or my big butt
in the left seat, or a combination of both. I just finished searching the
archives, and I have to decide between John's bungee and Richard's ground adjustable
tab. Or something involving duct tape.
On the ground, I tied the main gear to my truck and weighed down the tailwheel
with two bags of petrified Sakrete, and ended up cranking about 4 turns into the
IVO prop adjuster before I could get 5300 rpm static. I'll be looking for
5500+ climbing out. Now the 912 idles smoother, and at 2500 rpm it taxies twice
as fast as it did before. Well, duhh.
Thanks to all for the help and encouragement I received being a member of the list.
To all of you builders who have come along since I joined in '98, I hope
I can give a little back. My first contribution is "Before you fly, do a full
throttle runup and set your prop pitch." Oh yeah, don't forget to make a contribution
to Matt for keeping this forum going.
"Wow. I really flew the thing!" And the weather looks good tomorrow...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: First flight 319DM |
> "Wow. I really flew the thing!" And the weather looks good tomorrow...
Duncan/Gents:
Ya done good!!!
The roll to the left is normal. When you put
someone in the right seat it will neutralize the
roll tendency. Bungee works got. Costs nothing,
if you have a stray piece of bungee and two small
hose clamps.
Recommend tying off on the tailwheel rather than
mains. Then you won't need to put two hard bags
of Sakrette on you tail. :-)
Have fun and be careful. Try not to get in a
hurry and don't let anyone else rush
you...................
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Pike <rwpike(at)preferred.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
Possibly. But I had added an extra hinge to the ailerons right out at the
wingtips (Doubled stainless "L" brackets, the ones that Kolb sells to
anchor the front of the stabilizer, and attached in just the same way) and
that didn't help at all. Zero slop is not a cure. But it may contribute to
the problem.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>Another contributing factor to the Mark III
>aileron flutter problem may be the hinge
>arrangement of the the flaps piggy backed on the
>ailerons that are then attached to the trailing
>edge of the wing.
>
>
>john h
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
In a message dated 11/22/02 10:18:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
johnc(at)datasync.com writes:
> Hi Gang,
>
> Never have had any rudder flutter in my Firestar II at any speed.
>
> Later,
> John Cooley
>
> Never had any in my Firestar KX either....course I never go over 65 cause
> I'm usually pitched for takeoff, not cruise. Besides as I recall the 5 rib
> that I have was Vne at 75 when I bought it in '91
George RAndolph
Firestar driver from Akron, O
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | possums <possums(at)mindspring.com> |
>
>Memories.....................the original spark that got me interested in
>flying - nearly 50 years ago -
Geeess - 50 yrs on the list and still not flying.
On a more serious note:
Capt'n Ron is probably right - "You have opposite
momentums cancelling each other. It does not let the flutter get started."
The "getting started" thing seems to be the problem.
Even with the "x-hinges" we had one flutter almost to
the ground. Broke ribs loose, broke aileron controls, etc.
http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html
The designer will have already investigated and eliminated the problem in
the construction and subsequent flight test evaluations of the prototype.
If mass balancing is required, the plans probably will contain instructions
regarding the exact degree of balance which must be obtained. The designer
might state this requirement as "Balance 100%", or "Add weight until X
number of degrees (usually 10' to 20') nose-down attitude of the surface is
obtained."
The least useful instruction might be one specifying an exact weight to be
installed for the balance, with no information regarding the required
balance attitude. This would not be a good practice because subsequent
aircraft could turn out to be heavier than the original prototype upon
which the designer based his calculations. In that event, the weight
specified would, most likely, prove to be insufficient.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary robert voigt" <johndeereantique(at)qwest.net> |
kolb crew, I'am looking for adell clamps and someone mentioned they
were in spruce aircraft catalog, i looked and could find nothing, have i
got the spelling right. looking to attach a full enclosure with these
clamps without drilling into the cage.
thanks in advance,
Gary r. voigt
kxp/447
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bourne" <biglar(at)gogittum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: adell clamps!!! |
Strange..............I expect better from ACS. They're listed under
"MS21919 Clamps," in the "Clamps" section; page 114 of the 2001-2002
catalog. Helpful Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary robert voigt" <johndeereantique(at)qwest.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: adell clamps!!!
>
> kolb crew, I'am looking for adell clamps and someone mentioned they
> were in spruce aircraft catalog, i looked and could find nothing, have i
> got the spelling right. looking to attach a full enclosure with these
> clamps without drilling into the cage.
>
> thanks in advance,
> Gary r. voigt
> kxp/447
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bourne" <biglar(at)gogittum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: adell clamps!!! |
Arrrrgggghhh ! ! ! No sooner hit "send" and saw some clamps on the same
page that I've been curious about. Does anyone have experience with the
"Speed Clamps" on the same page, center of the right column ?? (Tinnerman
A3122) I'm looking for strong clamps that'll conform to fairly small hose.
The regular heavy duty screw clamps (hose clamps ??) have too wide a center
section, and leave a flat spot, instead of even pressure all the way around.
Thanks. GoGittum Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary robert voigt" <johndeereantique(at)qwest.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: adell clamps!!!
>
> kolb crew, I'am looking for adell clamps and someone mentioned they
> were in spruce aircraft catalog, i looked and could find nothing, have i
> got the spelling right. looking to attach a full enclosure with these
> clamps without drilling into the cage.
>
> thanks in advance,
> Gary r. voigt
> kxp/447
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bourne" <biglar(at)gogittum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: First flight 319DM |
Congratulations, Duncan.....................sounds like a great "really
early" Christmas present for yourself. Have fun & fly safe.
Lar.........................soon to join ya.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: First flight 319DM
>
> Well, it flies. This morning I took up 319DM for its first flight. I've
been on the ground for a few hours now and I'm only beginning to enjoy it.
All the really important things went well: the wings stayed on, the engine
ran fine, I didn't bend the gear. But it was a busy time and I only had a
moment to look around and think "Wow, I'm really flying this thing!" The
flight went according to plan, climbed straight ahead to 1000', shallow
turns to 3000' staying within gliding distance of the field, and then power
off to determine the indicated airspeed for pre-stall indications. I got a
buffet around 35mph IAS two or three times, and went ahead with two poweroff
stalls (definite break at 32 indicated with the left wing dropping a little
each time). Landing was fun, the tailwheel hit a split second before the
mains.
>
> The major distraction was that I was only getting 4400 rpm max on the 912.
I had done mag checks at 4000 rpm on the ground, several times, and just
didn't think I had to do a full power runup. I thought if I had to tweak
the prop pitch some it wouldn't be much, and I could do it after flying. So
on takeoff, I advanced the throttle slowly and just about the time I got to
4000 rpm the plane wanted to fly - the throttle went in the rest of the way
and I was climbing out of ground effect when I noticed it was steady on 4300
rpm. I was climbing so I stayed with it, but I was kicking myself the whole
flight for not setting the pitch before flying.
>
> The second distraction was the aileron trim. It required right stick
pressure to keep the wings level. It's either a little twist in the wings
or my big butt in the left seat, or a combination of both. I just finished
searching the archives, and I have to decide between John's bungee and
Richard's ground adjustable tab. Or something involving duct tape.
>
> On the ground, I tied the main gear to my truck and weighed down the
tailwheel with two bags of petrified Sakrete, and ended up cranking about 4
turns into the IVO prop adjuster before I could get 5300 rpm static. I'll
be looking for 5500+ climbing out. Now the 912 idles smoother, and at 2500
rpm it taxies twice as fast as it did before. Well, duhh.
>
> Thanks to all for the help and encouragement I received being a member of
the list. To all of you builders who have come along since I joined in '98,
I hope I can give a little back. My first contribution is "Before you fly,
do a full throttle runup and set your prop pitch." Oh yeah, don't forget to
make a contribution to Matt for keeping this forum going.
>
> "Wow. I really flew the thing!" And the weather looks good tomorrow...
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: adell clamps!!! |
Lar, Yes I have experience with " speed clamps ". My comment would be if
you want more grief ( I know how you enjoy it ) go ahead and try the seed
clamp... You be soorrry.
Richard Harris
MK3 N912RH
Arkansas
----- > Arrrrgggghhh ! ! ! No sooner hit "send" and saw some clamps on the
same
> page that I've been curious about. Does anyone have experience with the
> "Speed Clamps" on the same page, center of the right column ?? (Tinnerman
> A3122) I'm looking for strong clamps that'll conform to fairly small
hose.
> The regular heavy duty screw clamps (hose clamps ??) have too wide a
center
> section, and leave a flat spot, instead of even pressure all the way
around.
> Thanks. GoGittum Lar.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | possums <possums(at)mindspring.com> |
>
>John and all, I'll admit to trying things my way, at least on my plane...
>on any one else's I follow "recommended procedures".
When we change anything on these "flying lawn chairs" - we transform
ourselves into test pilots and what we think we are beyond that, I know not.
per "Peter Pan"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart(at)ldd.net> |
| Subject: | Victor 1+ is running |
Spent most of the day tidying up the engine. It was getting late, so I put a wire
tie to hold the radiator shutter up. Pulled it out of the hangar and took
it around the pattern one time. It was great. Seven weeks of no flying. Installed
a more robust cooling system plumbing and radiator mount, added a little
expansion tank with pressure cap, used some vinyl reinforced tubing on the
radiator to head burp line so I can see if there is coolant present, and lightened
the head clamp that holds the muffler.
Now the trick is going to be not messing it up. Unearth bound again.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart(at)ldd.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Jones" <kevin-jones(at)snet.net> |
| Subject: | Ultralight advice |
There is a single place ultralight for sale on ebay. Could any of you jockeys who
already have ultralights give me any comments about it. It is listed at 1994
ultralight plane airplane rotax trade? That is supposed to be the url for it
but it doesn't work. I get it by doing a search on airplane costing more than
$700 and less than $2000.
kj
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cooley" <johnc(at)datasync.com> |
| Subject: | Re: First flight 319DM |
Hi Duncan / Gang,
Congrats on your successful first flight. Hope you have many more safe
flying hours.
Later,
John Cooley
Firestar II
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: First flight 319DM
>
> Well, it flies. This morning I took up 319DM for its first flight. I've
been on the ground for a few hours now and I'm only beginning to enjoy it.
All the really important things went well: the wings stayed on, the engine
ran fine, I didn't bend the gear. But it was a busy time and I only had a
moment to look around and think "Wow, I'm really flying this thing!" The
flight went according to plan, climbed straight ahead to 1000', shallow
turns to 3000' staying within gliding distance of the field, and then power
off to determine the indicated airspeed for pre-stall indications. I got a
buffet around 35mph IAS two or three times, and went ahead with two poweroff
stalls (definite break at 32 indicated with the left wing dropping a little
each time). Landing was fun, the tailwheel hit a split second before the
mains.
>
> The major distraction was that I was only getting 4400 rpm max on the 912.
I had done mag checks at 4000 rpm on the ground, several times, and just
didn't think I had to do a full power runup. I thought if I had to tweak
the prop pitch some it wouldn't be much, and I could do it after flying. So
on takeoff, I advanced the throttle slowly and just about the time I got to
4000 rpm the plane wanted to fly - the throttle went in the rest of the way
and I was climbing out of ground effect when I noticed it was steady on 4300
rpm. I was climbing so I stayed with it, but I was kicking myself the whole
flight for not setting the pitch before flying.
>
> The second distraction was the aileron trim. It required right stick
pressure to keep the wings level. It's either a little twist in the wings
or my big butt in the left seat, or a combination of both. I just finished
searching the archives, and I have to decide between John's bungee and
Richard's ground adjustable tab. Or something involving duct tape.
>
> On the ground, I tied the main gear to my truck and weighed down the
tailwheel with two bags of petrified Sakrete, and ended up cranking about 4
turns into the IVO prop adjuster before I could get 5300 rpm static. I'll
be looking for 5500+ climbing out. Now the 912 idles smoother, and at 2500
rpm it taxies twice as fast as it did before. Well, duhh.
>
> Thanks to all for the help and encouragement I received being a member of
the list. To all of you builders who have come along since I joined in '98,
I hope I can give a little back. My first contribution is "Before you fly,
do a full throttle runup and set your prop pitch." Oh yeah, don't forget to
make a contribution to Matt for keeping this forum going.
>
> "Wow. I really flew the thing!" And the weather looks good tomorrow...
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Airgriff2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 31 Msgs - 11/23/02 |
In a message dated 11/23/02 11:51:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kolb-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> : First flight 319DM
>
>
Congratulations Duncan, on your first flight. Take your time, be careful, and
enjoy every minute. What a feeling of accomplishment ! Huh ?
Fly Safe
Bob Griffin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> |
Lar and all, for oil lines I like the little 5/16" spiral hose clamps,
they're strong and rustproof. -Don't buy clamps from auto supply
stores as the worm is usually just plated junk. Always go to a
plumbing supplier-Lowes has em. When you lower a $500 pump
into a nasty sulferous well you can't afford to have rust-prone
hardware on it. One word of caution, any clamp can be over tightened,
use common sense . -BB (I think auto zone has adels)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jerb <ulflyer(at)airmail.net> |
Bob and All,
Control surfaces are not always fully balanced - on some planes they are
balanced to some percentage. I believe this is to prevent hunting - the
tenancy for the control to oscillate between one direction and the other.
jerb
>
>John and all, I'll admit to trying things my way, at least on my plane...
>on any one else's I follow "recommended procedures".
>I just like to understand the why behind everything. OK, the factory
>counterbalances work, but not necessarily because they balance
>the arrangement. If that were the case then every airplane that was
>ever designed would have had perfectly (static) balanced controls
>and never, ever had flutter problems. Too bad that at our level, it
>remains more art than science.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob, Kathleen, & Kory Brocious" <bbrocious(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: First flight 319DM |
Duncan, congratulations! My dad said he didn't get there in time to see you fly
but had a nice chat with you afterwards. He said you have a beautiful airplane.
Hopefully he will see you Sunday morning. The best advice I've heard yet was
take it slow. Don't let anybody or anything push you.
Best regards,
Bob
Bob, Kathleen, and Kory BrociousTenacity Farm
Campbellsburg, Kentucky
From: Duncan McBride <DUNCANMCBRIDE(at)COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Kolb-List: First flight 319DM
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:49:52 -0500
-- Kolb-List message posted by: Duncan McBride
Well, it flies. This morning I took up 319DM for its first flight. I've been on
the ground for a few hours now and I'm only beginning to enjoy it. All the really
important things went well: the wings stayed on, the engine ran fine, I didn't
bend the gear. But it was a busy time and I only had a moment to look around
and think "Wow, I'm really flying this thing!" The flight went according
to plan, climbed straight ahead to 1000', shallow turns to 3000' staying within
gliding distance of the field, and then power off to determine the indicated
airspeed for pre-stall indications. I got a buffet around 35mph IAS two or three
times, and went ahead with two poweroff stalls (definite break at 32 indicated
with the left wing dropping a little each time). Landing was fun, the tailwheel
hit a split second before the mains.
The major distraction was that I was only getting 4400 rpm max on the 912. I had
done mag checks at 4000 rpm on the ground, several times, and just didn't think
I had to do a full power runup. I thought if I had to tweak the prop pitch
some it wouldn't be much, and I could do it after flying. So on takeoff, I advanced
the throttle slowly and just about the time I got to 4000 rpm the plane
wanted to fly - the throttle went in the rest of the way and I was climbing out
of ground effect when I noticed it was steady on 4300 rpm. I was climbing so
I stayed with it, but I was kicking myself the whole flight for not setting
the pitch before flying.
The second distraction was the aileron trim. It required right stick pressure to
keep the wings level. It's either a little twist in the wings or my big butt
in the left seat, or a combination of both. I just finished searching the archives,
and I have to decide between John's bungee and Richard's ground adjustable
tab. Or something involving duct tape.
On the ground, I tied the main gear to my truck and weighed down the tailwheel
with two bags of petrified Sakrete, and ended up cranking about 4 turns into the
IVO prop adjuster before I could get 5300 rpm static. I'll be looking for 5500+
climbing out. Now the 912 idles smoother, and at 2500 rpm it taxies twice
as fast as it did before. Well, duhh.
Thanks to all for the help and encouragement I received being a member of the list.
To all of you builders who have come along since I joined in '98, I hope
I can give a little back. My first contribution is "Before you fly, do a full
throttle runup and set your prop pitch." Oh yeah, don't forget to make a contribution
to Matt for keeping this forum going.
"Wow. I really flew the thing!" And the weather looks good tomorrow...
Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CaptainRon <CaptainRon(at)theriver.com> |
I have been thinking about this flutter topic, I am fairly certain that one
can go to a heavier counter weight without any danger. the penalty in doing
so is the unecessary weight gain and some strange feel in the controls
during rapid movement, when the ailrons just want to continue with the pilot
input because of the counter weight's inertia. In some cases I suppose
heavier counter weight may be needed because of higher energy air impacting
the surfaces. Of course I doubt that this ever will be the case in a Kolb.
So just heaving the ailrons ballaced at neutral is enough for us. It is an
interesting subject though.
===========================================
11/23/02 19:19possums
>
>>
>> Memories.....................the original spark that got me interested in
>> flying - nearly 50 years ago -
>
> Geeess - 50 yrs on the list and still not flying.
>
> On a more serious note:
> Capt'n Ron is probably right - "You have opposite
> momentums cancelling each other. It does not let the flutter get started."
>
> The "getting started" thing seems to be the problem.
> Even with the "x-hinges" we had one flutter almost to
> the ground. Broke ribs loose, broke aileron controls, etc.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bourne" <biglar(at)gogittum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: adell clamps!!! |
Thanks for the heads up. I tried different tensions on the screw clamps,
and they looked fine. 2 weekends of roaring around out in the desert shows
dust sticking (and discolored) below several hose connections, so I'll snug
them down a little more, and see what happens. (That little VW thinks it's
1/2 mountain goat ! ! ! ) The narrow clamps circle the hose fine, but some
don't give sufficient tension. Large, wider clamps have a wider flat, and
don't pull tight evenly on the smaller hose. Some fittings don't have room
for 2 small ones, and you don't want it squeezing beyond the end of the
internal fitting - it'll cut the hose. On the adell clamp
thing...................Ace Hardware & Aircraft Supply carries adells, as
well, but the coding is wrong. Remember the article in one of the flying
magazines a year or 2 ago ?? We commented on it at the
time....................the clamps have a code stamped on them, which
specifies band material, and cushion material, to enable you to select the
proper one for the job. I have many aluminum a/c quality adells from AC
Spruce on Vamoose; and some plated steel from Ace Hardware. If I remember
a-right, I think the cushion material is the same on both. Can't see any
difference after 3 or 4 years, except maybe weight. I
published 2 sets of pictures on photoshare last night...................1
Kolb related, 1 not. It's up to Matt now..................c'mon Matt; I
sent in my money weeks ago ! ! ! Big Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Harris" <rharris@magnolia-net.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: adell clamps!!!
<rharris@magnolia-net.com>
>
> Lar, My MK III kit came with speed clamps back in 95. When I first saw
> them I thought they would be great, but I had a problem with getting tight
> enough, and when I did they would pop loose a few notches after a flight
or
> two. I talked to Dennis about them, and he said they no longer supplied
> they with a kit for that reason.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | b young <byoung(at)brigham.net> |
Curiosity, tho'..................why do
you recommend against those clamps ?? What would you
recommend ??
GoGittum Lar.
==================
there are a couple of sizes of the screw clamps... on the
smaller size tubing i used the small clamps ( about 1/4
inch wide ) and have not had a problem.
boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | b young <byoung(at)brigham.net> |
<<<>>>
I fly with them. always have. flying around the mountains,
i am constantly changing altitude and my pilot training
told me that the traidoff for going slow in a climb is that
you can go fast on a decent, in smooth air i will set the
airspeed at 100 with no problems.
boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick & Martha Neilsen" <neilsenrm(at)cs.com> |
When I purchased my MKIII classic from the old Kolb they were saying that if
you built the ailerons light you don't need the balance weights. I ended up
using trailing edge material from AC Spruce on my flaps and ailerons so they
(Kolb) gave me the counter balance weights. I figured that I didn't need to
fully balance the ailerons, which is really hard to figure due to the flaps
hanging on the aileron torque tube. I ended up using only three inches of
the solid bar stock extended as far as possible to get the most counter
balance for the least weight. I figure the are 50-75% balanced. I have not
experienced any flutter in the four years flying my MKIII.
My $.02 worth
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIII
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of CaptainRon
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New Lister
I have been thinking about this flutter topic, I am fairly certain that one
can go to a heavier counter weight without any danger. the penalty in doing
so is the unecessary weight gain and some strange feel in the controls
during rapid movement, when the ailrons just want to continue with the pilot
input because of the counter weight's inertia. In some cases I suppose
heavier counter weight may be needed because of higher energy air impacting
the surfaces. Of course I doubt that this ever will be the case in a Kolb.
So just heaving the ailrons ballaced at neutral is enough for us. It is an
interesting subject though.
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ul15rhb(at)juno.com |
Guys,
One more thought on the topic of flutter. If the hinges are not drilled
on center, this would raise or lower the aileron leading edge tube
relative to the trailing edge of the wing. Could this cause turbulence
over the aileron which might initiate flutter? This might explain why
some Kolbs have flutter and others don't. I have seen Kolbs that have
binding ailerons where the hinges weren't drilled properly.
Just a thought ....
Ralph
writes:
>
>
> When I purchased my MKIII classic from the old Kolb they were saying
> that if
> you built the ailerons light you don't need the balance weights. I
> ended up
> using trailing edge material from AC Spruce on my flaps and ailerons
> so they
> (Kolb) gave me the counter balance weights. I figured that I didn't
> need to
> fully balance the ailerons, which is really hard to figure due to
> the flaps
> hanging on the aileron torque tube. I ended up using only three
> inches of
> the solid bar stock extended as far as possible to get the most
> counter
> balance for the least weight. I figure the are 50-75% balanced. I
> have not
> experienced any flutter in the four years flying my MKIII.
>
> My $.02 worth
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW Powered MKIII
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> CaptainRon
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: New Lister
>
>
>
>
> I have been thinking about this flutter topic, I am fairly certain
> that one
> can go to a heavier counter weight without any danger. the penalty
> in doing
> so is the unecessary weight gain and some strange feel in the
> controls
> during rapid movement, when the ailrons just want to continue with
> the pilot
> input because of the counter weight's inertia. In some cases I
> suppose
> heavier counter weight may be needed because of higher energy air
> impacting
> the surfaces. Of course I doubt that this ever will be the case in a
> Kolb.
> So just heaving the ailrons ballaced at neutral is enough for us. It
> is an
> interesting subject though.
>
>
> >
>
>
=
> Contribution
> Gifts!
> Admin.
> _->
>
> messages.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Duncan McBride <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net> |
>
> <<< are flying with
> the counterbalance weights, and how many without. The fact
> that mine
> flew fine without them (until I added a new coat of paint)
> shows that
> not all need them.>>>>
>
I didn't even think about it - when I heard the counterweight kits were
available I ordered one right away. They were on before the first flight.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Leonard S.Voelker" <lenvoelker(at)ccis.com> |
Hi, Kolbers,
Thanks very much for all of the kind welcomes offered to this newby.
I seem to have found an even more controversial 'f' word than Fergy, and on my
very first post, too. Flutter! It has taken me days to study all of the responses
before I could put something reasonable together. I must say that I was
quite overwhelmed by all of the experiences and explanations offered. Most of
the comments and advice were right on. Many of you guys have demonstrated a far
better understanding of flutter than most aerospace engineers. I guess that's
because you have lived it (especially John Hauck). Way to go!
First, let me congratulate Peter Volum for deciding to install aileron balance
weights on his aircraft. They are indeed, by far, the best way to cure the problem
and for the reasons given. I installed aileron balance weights on my Mark
III as quickly as possible after I read about possible flutter in the Builders
Manual. It is far better to have large flutter margins than small ones. Any
additional mass on the ailerons, especially toward the trailing edge can significantly
lower aileron flutter speeds. Besides having too much paint on the ailerons,
rain water trapped inside could also do it. The Mark III Builder's Manual
suggests two other ways besides the standard lap joint to attach the aileron
ribs to the trailing edge tube. The joints for both of these methods are heavier
than the standard method and are right at the trailing edge. John Hauck
and others have indicated that not only some Mark III's have had aileron flutter
problems but also some Firestars and Ultrastars. What about Fireflys and Kolbras?
In my opinion it should probably be mandatory for any of these models to
have aileron balance weights if even one of them exhibited flutter. If these
were certificated rather than experimental aircraft that would certainly be the
case. Shame on both Old Kolb and New Kolb for not making sure that that was
done.
Speaking of certificated civil aircraft, the rule is to maintain at least a 20%
flutter speed margin on Vmax in terms of equivalent airspeed. Indicated airspeed
is probably close enough to equivalent airspeed for our purposes. If Peter
Volum were to accept this as a guide line for his experimental aircraft and
his indicated flutter speed is 92 mph, then his Vmax should be 77 mph. Vne is
5% less than Vmax so his new Vne should be 73 mph until he gets those aileron
balance weights on. O.K.?
Now for some flutter basics. Flutter is an aeroelastic instability that is caused
by the "coupling" of two (or more) structural resonant modes of vibration at
some fluid speed when that structure is emersed in fluid flow. Even so, flutter
is not in itself a resonent phenomenon. No single aircraft resonant mode by
itself will go unstable (subsonically) in "classical" flutter. The coupling
forces stem from certain local structural mass and stiffness characteristics as
well as unsteady aerodynamics. Note that structural strength has nothing to
do with it. Unsteady aerodynamic forces are generated by the vibratory motion
of the structure itself and are usually completely independent of the steady state
aerodynamic forces. In the case of aileron flutter on Kolbs the two modes
that are probably coupling are antisymmetric aileron rotation (as indicated by
the laterally flailing control stick) and wing first antisymmetric vertical
bending. Adverse inertial coupling is provided by the aileron c.g.'s being aft
of their hinge lines. The purpose of the balance weights is to move the aileron
c.g. forward to eliminate this coupling force. One could overbalance the ailerons
with even more weight to obtain even more stabilty but this is usually
not a good idea. At some point one could cause wing bending-torsion flutter to
become critical. Besides, who needs more weight than is necessary. The reason
that the aileron balance weight didn't work at the inboard end is that nearly
all of the dynamic motion is taking place outboard rather than inboard. The inboard
end of the aileron nearly coincides chordwise with the wing spar attachment.
The spar forces the wing first bending mode's node line to be there also.
Node lines have zero vertical motion and without vibratory motion the balance
weight is ineffective. Also, the aileron, as well as the wing, is flexible and
could be twisting. If the balance weight is only at the inboard end the outboard
portion of the aileron could still behave as though it was unbalanced. Finally,
the inboard balance weight will only serve to lower the flutter frequency
because of the increased aileron rotational inertia. This may actually lower
rather than increase the flutter speed.
Way back above I mentioned "classical" flutter. Some characteristics of classical
flutter include exponentially increasing sinusoidal oscillation amplitudes
at a constant frequency. The amplitudes increase without limit until the structure
catastrophically fails. Structural failure typically occurs within only one
to two seconds from flutter onset. No one reported any structural failures
and no one can slow an aircraft down sufficiently to stop flutter in only one
second. So what is going on here? For classical flutter one assumes that the structure
is perfectly linear in the dynamic sense. For linear structures the resonant
frequencies stay constant regardless of the vibration amplitude because
the mass and stiffnesses stay constant. For non-linear structures they don't.
If the instaneous effective stiffness, for example, increases with increasing
deflection for a pair of coupling modes during flutter, the flutter amplitudes
usually increase rapidly at first and then may become constant before the
structure fails. I believe that Homer Kolb's unique designs, in which the ailerons
are attached to the wing with three piano hinges and the flaps are attached
to the aileron torque tube with three more piano hinges, provide enough non-linearity
to save the day. That is, at aileron instantaneous zero deflection
the aileron contributes very little bending stiffness along the hingeline. However,
as the aileron rotates either up or down the instantaneous hingeline bending
stiffness increases with increasing deflection much in the same way as
creasing a sheet of paper increases its stiffness. This limited the flutter amplitudes
to a structurally tolerable level until the aircraft could be slowed
down enough to stop the oscillations. Such oscillations are still very dangerous.
If one of those hinges fails, say from fatigue, explosive flutter could still
result.
I had mentioned earlier that unsteady aerodynamics are independent of steady state
aerodynamics. Thus loading the ailerons up or down with little trim tabs will
do absolutely no good for preventing flutter and their mass at the trailing
edge may do some harm. The only control surface that is not aerodynamically
loaded in the static sense most of the time is the rudder.
Speaking of the rudder, Kolb rudders also seem to be somewhat flutter prone with
too little of a flutter margin to cover likely builder variations. Standing
on the rudder pedals was a good last ditch way to get back down on the ground
the first time but having to do it all of the time doesn't seem like much fun
to me. Balance weights here seem like a good way to go too, since the flutter
fundamentals are the same. Was it Richard Pike that put a balance weight on his
rudder? Who ever it was, I would be interested in the details. I want one, too.
Sorry, Vince Hallam. I don't have much info yet On Mazda rotrary engine conversions In Kitplanes magazine Atkins advertizes that he has some info at www.AtkinsRotary.com.
Congratulations to Duncan McBride for his successful first flight. By the way,
the Builders Manual suggests adjusting the flaps, one up and one down a little
bit, as an easy way to trim out the aircraft for static roll.
Geez, I write long posts. I talk too much, too. I promise to keep my messages shorter
in the future. Thanks guys.
Len Voelker
Mark III Xtra/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | All New List FAQs! |
Dear Listers,
I got to looking at the Email List FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions) today
and realized that they where miserably out of date. I spent a wad of time
today completely revising them and adding in documentation on all of the
many new features such as the List Browse and Photoshare. Many of the
little-known features are documented in there now, too, so even if you're a
seasoned List veteran, you might want to give it a read. Never know what
you might discover.
At the bottom of this message in the Trailer you will find a new link item
called "List FAQ" with a URL for this specific List. Just click on it and
print it out or read it online.
Don't forget that November is the List Fund Raiser month! The "2002 List
of Contributors" is just days away and I know you'll want to make sure your
name is on it!! Please make your Contribution today to support the
continued operation of these List Services!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kirk Smith" <snuffy(at)usol.com> |
". However, as the aileron rotates either up or down the instantaneous
hingeline bending stiffness increases with increasing deflection much in the
same way as creasing a sheet of paper increases its stiffness. This limited
the flutter amplitudes to a structurally tolerable level until the aircraft
could be slowed down enough to stop the oscillations. Such oscillations are
still very dangerous. If one of those hinges fails, say from fatigue,
explosive flutter could still result."
Surmising from the above statement. It appears that the hinge is preventing
classic flutter and absorbing a lot of stress due to the flutter. I would
think it a good idea for those who have experienced flutter to really
inspect those hinges very closely for cracks, deformities, and loseness
then. Thanks for the excellent post Len. ...........Kirk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
Besides having too much paint on the ailerons,
rain water trapped inside could also do it.
> What about Fireflys and Kolbras?
The reason that the aileron balance weight
didn't work at the inboard end is that nearly all
of the dynamic motion is taking place outboard
rather than inboard.
> I had mentioned earlier that unsteady aerodynamics are independent of steady
state aerodynamics. Thus loading the ailerons up or down with little trim tabs
will do absolutely no good for preventing flutter and their mass at the trailing
edge may do some harm. The only control surface that is not aerodynamically
loaded in the static sense most of the time is the rudder.
> Sorry, Vince Hallam. I don't have much info yet On Mazda rotrary engine conversions In Kitplanes magazine Atkins advertizes that he has some info at www.AtkinsRotary.com.
> Len Voelker
Len/Gents:
Good to have you on board. Answered a lot of
questions for me on aileron flutter. I like what
you said, that is one Kolb experienced aileron
flutter, they all should have counter balance
weights. I agree with this whole heartedly.
Amazing how long it took to get folks attention
and do something about it. I guess they thought I
was making it all up. :-)
Loading ailerons with rain water or dew or when
washing the aircraft as a cause of flutter, I
never thought of this one. May have been the
trigger for flutter back in 1989, in my Firestar,
at the Flight Farm in Monteray, NY. Something
else, I found in later years and never connected
to aileron flutter, was mud daubers building nests
inside the aileron. That adds a lot of weight to
the inside trailing edge.
We only have one Kolbra flying and no reported
flutter problems. Have heard of no problems with
the Fire Fly.
Thanks for the info on why my inboard mounted
counterbalance weights did not work. Shucks! If
I had mounted the on the outboard end, they
probably would have done their job and I could say
I never experienced aileron flutter in my Mark
III. But they didn't. The problem is fixed. And
I can fly comfortably. Last night, pushing
sunset, I flew 95 to 105 mph indicated, at times.
It was a comforting feeling knowing I did not have
to anticipate flutter should I hit a little bump
in the smooth evening air.
This is for Vince Hallam and anyone else
interested in "rotary power":
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/
Tracy and Laura Crook for many years. Tracy is an
old pioneer in the ultralight and gyrocopter
field. He was one of the first builders of the
Kolb Twinstar. He is now into Mazda Rotary
Conversions, that is providing components to
convert Wankle engines rather than providing the
completed conversions. He is designed and has a
gearbox produced for these engines. All the
necessary info is at the web site.
Thanks again for the professional information.
Answered a lot of questions for me.
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hans van Alphen" <HVA(at)bellsouth.net> |
>Builders Manual suggests adjusting the flaps, one up and one down a little
bit, as an >easy way to trim out the aircraft for static roll.
>
>Len Voelker
>Mark III Xtra/?
>
>
Thanks Len on an excellent explanation of flutter.
On static roll, I have tried the differential of flaps but it was not very
effective and it needed a very large amount of differential.
I installed a small 2" x 12" trim tab on the outboard right aileron and it
seems far more effective.
I believe Richard Pike has made his ground adjustable.
Hans van Alphen
Mark III Xtra
BMW powered
85 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dale Sellers" <dsellers(at)sgtcollege.org> |
I have a question for those of you with Ultra Stars with the old style
landing gears. I replaced the cross braces in mine with new stock. On the
ends where the braces mount to the axle tubes and to the upper gear attach
bolt, I flattened the brace material completely and drilled my attach holes
through it. Is this an ok procedure or should I have reinforced the
attachment in some way? I didn't have the old ones to go by.
Dale Sellers
Georgia Ultra Star
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
> I have a question for those of you with Ultra Stars with the old style
> landing gears. I replaced the cross braces in mine with new stock. On the
> ends where the braces mount to the axle tubes and to the upper gear attach
> bolt, I flattened the brace material completely and drilled my attach holes
> through it. Is this an ok procedure or should I have reinforced the
> attachment in some way? I didn't have the old ones to go by.
>
> Dale Sellers
Dale/Gents:
Procedure was heat to cherry red and flatten.
IIRC they are attached with 3/16 bolts. This is a
weak area, if you make landings like me on those
stiff legs. I have sheared these little bolts on
touch down which starts a chain of events that
leads finally to an outboard main wing rib getting
bent. Might be a good item to change out every so
many landings, or what ever.
Better yet, a larger more shear resistant bolt.
Take care,
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
Dear Len, Thank you for so much very good info on flutter. And as far as
you keeping you posts shorter in the future, DONT YOU DARE !, Any time you
have the desire to share so much of your expierience in here, I certainly
welcome you to post your thoughts in their entirety! dont worry, this aint
readers digest!
In the Last 3 weeks, I have had a couple of my A&P buddies, actually old
classmates and Spartan Alumni in my shed looking over my Firefly project.
Both these guys have spent alot of their carreer time working in AC
manufacturing, one , still at American in Tulsa, and the other for 15 years
at FairChild/D-Howard in San Antoine. Now, you talk about steeped in
regulations, after spending so much time in GA, these guys spout FAR'S out
of habit. Anyway...one asked after looking at the wings and ailerons, "How
are the control surfaces balanced?"...........when I said there were no
provisions in the plans for balancing the surfaces, the other fella quickly
asked.."What did you say the speed envelope was?".....When I described the
expected performance, they both looked at me and said almost in unison, "Do
you want us to help you balance them?"..." You ARE gonna right?"
Don Gherardini
FireFly 098
Central Illinois
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Original Firestar's with flutter? |
| From: | ul15rhb(at)juno.com |
Group,
In all the years of flying the Original Firestar, this topic of flutter
has got my attention. I would like to take a poll of all Original
Firestar's with full-span ailerons, that may have seen a flutter problem
at one time. John Hauck is one of them. Are there any others out there?
Thanks,
Ralph Burlingame
Original Firestar
16 years flying it
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dale Sellers" <dsellers(at)sgtcollege.org> |
John, That makes me want to add a backup cable. That's scary.
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Hauck
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Ultra Star
> I have a question for those of you with Ultra Stars with the old style
> landing gears. I replaced the cross braces in mine with new stock. On
the
> ends where the braces mount to the axle tubes and to the upper gear attach
> bolt, I flattened the brace material completely and drilled my attach
holes
> through it. Is this an ok procedure or should I have reinforced the
> attachment in some way? I didn't have the old ones to go by.
>
> Dale Sellers
Dale/Gents:
Procedure was heat to cherry red and flatten.
IIRC they are attached with 3/16 bolts. This is a
weak area, if you make landings like me on those
stiff legs. I have sheared these little bolts on
touch down which starts a chain of events that
leads finally to an outboard main wing rib getting
bent. Might be a good item to change out every so
many landings, or what ever.
Better yet, a larger more shear resistant bolt.
Take care,
john h
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Pike <rwpike(at)preferred.com> |
| Subject: | Rudder flutter, counterbalance |
Added a little data to the web page about the rudder counterbalance.
Took some more pictures of it this morning, but they don't improve on the
existing picture.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg6.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave & Eve Pelletier" <pelletier(at)cableone.net> |
Hi Guys,
I'm a new guy. Met Lar at Paulden (AZ)_last month. I'm the one with a red
MkIII. I also have a Firestar. (It's for sale, but I'm not telling anyone 'cuz
I really like the plane.) I'm not a builder (yet) since I bought both planes
used.
Y'know they say that it's not one thing that causes an accident, but a combination.
I can vouch for that. I took the Firestar apart after I'd flown about
30 hrs and painted it. (It wasn't UV protected.) When I put it back together
I didn't hook up the ASI correctly, and so it was reading real, real slow.
I decided to not land and just fly by the seat of my pants for awhile and ,
later, dipped down to check out a creek bed.
That's when it hit the fan. The whole plane started to shake, rattle & roll
and there wasn't even any music playing. I immediately pulled back power and
eased back on the stick and it stopped. Scared the hell out of me. I headed
back to the strip and landed. I checked with a number of experts (including
Kolb) and they said "aileron flutter." Ordered the weights from Kolb and we
installed them. My instructor tested it and said he'd exceeded Vne with no problems.
I haven't had a problem since.
Arizona Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ul15rhb(at)juno.com |
>
>
> Hi Guys,
> I'm a new guy. Met Lar at Paulden (AZ)_last month. I'm the one
> with a red MkIII. I also have a Firestar. (It's for sale, but I'm
> not telling anyone 'cuz I really like the plane.) I'm not a builder
> (yet) since I bought both planes used.
> Y'know they say that it's not one thing that causes an accident,
> but a combination. I can vouch for that. I took the Firestar apart
> after I'd flown about 30 hrs and painted it. (It wasn't UV
> protected.) When I put it back together I didn't hook up the ASI
> correctly, and so it was reading real, real slow. I decided to not
> land and just fly by the seat of my pants for awhile and , later,
> dipped down to check out a creek bed.
> That's when it hit the fan. The whole plane started to shake,
> rattle & roll and there wasn't even any music playing. I
> immediately pulled back power and eased back on the stick and it
> stopped. Scared the hell out of me. I headed back to the strip and
> landed. I checked with a number of experts (including Kolb) and
> they said "aileron flutter." Ordered the weights from Kolb and we
> installed them. My instructor tested it and said he'd exceeded Vne
> with no problems. I haven't had a problem since.
> Arizona Dave
Dave,
What kind of Firestar do you have? Original, KX, KXP, or a new model
Firestar (ones with vertical aileron push rods)?
Ralph
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jimmy <jhankin(at)planters.net> |
Has anyone that has a Firefly experienced flutter?
Is there a aileron balance unit that works on a Firefly? I have rounded wing tips.
Thanks to anyone for an answer....
I have not experienced flutter, but there again I don't fly fast, only about 55
or 60.
Jimmy Hankinson
912-863-7384
Rocky Ford, Ga. 30455
jhankin(at)planters.net
Kolb Firefly/447/240hrs
Local field, Pegasus/2000/Grass
Airport JYL/Sylvania, Ga.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
> John, That makes me want to add a backup cable. That's scary.
>
> Dale
Dale/Gents:
No fear intended. Don't recommend backing up with
a cable. Will look like one of those
Challengers. The cables always look like an
"after-thought".
May never happen to you and it may never have
happened to anyone else, but I broke one (1) on
the end of one strut and the end result was a bent
outboard main rib on the low side. Just something
to check periodically, especially if you have a
harder than normal landing. I think what get them
is landing heavy on on wheel. I usually broke the
right gear on my Ultrastar. That was because I
had to do a 45 degree turn just prior to touchdown
and the right wing was usually low.
Take care,
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Briar Patch Visit |
Where do I start?
I guess, Thank you to all is first in order.
Thank you Jeremy for sharing your afternoon with us and sharing your knowledge
of Kolb aircraft. Your project is top notch and you have every right to brag.
Your construction of your Mark III classic is excellent to say the least. I can
understand your wanting to get airborne with the field you have and family members
that love aviation. I only wish that we could had the whole day to spend
with you and the other visitors.Witch brings me to thank you number two.
Thank you John Hauck Sir! I'm glad the temps and your bird won the decision over
the Suzuki. Tuff choice I'm sure. When I asked you to consider flying over to
Jeremy's, I had no idea who I was inviting. You sir, are to Kolb aircraft, as
Willie G. Davidson is to Harley Davidson Motorcycle Company. Your (been there
done that) experience with Kolb aircraft plus your aviation background, no
doubt, makes you the undisputed authority on the subject, in my book anyway, darn
twice to Alaska in it!
My father-n-law (Charley Harris) has well over 20,000 hours in the air in almost
every type of aircraft you can name. Over 3000 in Falcon 50's as of recent and
he and I were star struck when you approached the briar patch. I quote,"Damn
that thing has a very nice sound" and your fly by left us both in awe. The 912s
as Jeremy convinced us, is by far the engine of choice. And as I mentioned,
I'm an old dirt bike nut myself and the 2 strokes were, until you arrived, my
pick of Rotax engines. Witch brings me to the (Loaded) question? And this one
will give the list members,as well as TNK some thinking.
How does the new Mark III X-Tra stack up against the proven veteran classic that
you and others currently operate? BANG! there ya go!
ps. We had a wonderful time with you guys and look forward to more! as a new student
pilot, upon return to LUL I for the first time had the opportunity to fly
at night and it was excellent! Also in case your wondering we made it back in
2hrs 36min. Not bad for a fat boy in a stock 150!
Thanks again!
Paul & Charley
N49958P
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Briar Patch Visit |
Correction Cessna 4958P
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Petty" <ppetty@c-gate.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: Briar Patch Visit
>
> Where do I start?
>
> I guess, Thank you to all is first in order.
> Thank you Jeremy for sharing your afternoon with us and sharing your
knowledge of Kolb aircraft. Your project is top notch and you have every
right to brag. Your construction of your Mark III classic is excellent to
say the least. I can understand your wanting to get airborne with the field
you have and family members that love aviation. I only wish that we could
had the whole day to spend with you and the other visitors.Witch brings me
to thank you number two.
> Thank you John Hauck Sir! I'm glad the temps and your bird won the
decision over the Suzuki. Tuff choice I'm sure. When I asked you to consider
flying over to Jeremy's, I had no idea who I was inviting. You sir, are to
Kolb aircraft, as Willie G. Davidson is to Harley Davidson Motorcycle
Company. Your (been there done that) experience with Kolb aircraft plus your
aviation background, no doubt, makes you the undisputed authority on the
subject, in my book anyway, darn twice to Alaska in it!
> My father-n-law (Charley Harris) has well over 20,000 hours in the air in
almost every type of aircraft you can name. Over 3000 in Falcon 50's as of
recent and he and I were star struck when you approached the briar patch. I
quote,"Damn that thing has a very nice sound" and your fly by left us both
in awe. The 912s as Jeremy convinced us, is by far the engine of choice. And
as I mentioned, I'm an old dirt bike nut myself and the 2 strokes were,
until you arrived, my pick of Rotax engines. Witch brings me to the (Loaded)
question? And this one will give the list members,as well as TNK some
thinking.
>
> How does the new Mark III X-Tra stack up against the proven veteran
classic that you and others currently operate? BANG! there ya go!
>
> ps. We had a wonderful time with you guys and look forward to more! as a
new student pilot, upon return to LUL I for the first time had the
opportunity to fly at night and it was excellent! Also in case your
wondering we made it back in 2hrs 36min. Not bad for a fat boy in a stock
150!
>
> Thanks again!
> Paul & Charley
> N49958P
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary robert voigt" <johndeereantique(at)qwest.net> |
| Subject: | FULL ENCLOSURE/KXP...INFO WANTED |
Hello gang!!! I'am having one Hel*&$%#@### of a time trying to
install the original full enclosure that came with the kit on a firestar
kxp model. first of all my nose cone was not installed to spec. to
accept the door panel, should be 48" from panel to rear of cage, which
it is not... 2nd of all you need three guys to hold windshield, piano
hinge and support tubes (5/8 x 0.058") and try and rivet. just want to
know how many of you have installed this type with the door panel. i
think i may just have a full wrap around windshield bend it, get in and
close it. please let me know what the rest of you have done. also if you
have some pics or good web site to look at...that would be great also.
frustrated lar!!!
opps!!! frustrated Gary!!!.....Lar, don't mean to pick on you but
your terminology is catchy.
it's easier to rebuild a johndeere
thanks in advance,
bleeding green
Gary r. voigt
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: UltraStar Flutter |
I had a highly modified US with long bungie corded legs, full window & 3/4
front pod. the Cuyuna has hiperformance package with dual Micuni's for
43hp, It turned a wide chord 3 blade Precision P-Tip prop that could pull
310lb thrust . I one competition I did an unusually steep banking turn &
all hell broke loose as instant & vioent flutter took over. it quit as soon
as I cut the power & shoved the nose over. When I told Old Kolb about this
I sensed they found the incident icredulous. I had another incident while
flying about 70mph in some turbulent cold air, again It got to shaking and
shuddering. It stopped immediatley after lowering power. Being a lot
dummer back then, I never heard of mass balancing. I simply approached the
problem as need to get the slop out of all control surfaces & associated
rods, pins, knuckles, bushings (primitive busing bearing!, bekcranks ect.
With the control stick held solid, you could move the leading edge of the
flaperons up & down 2". The wing tip could be raises & lowered almost an
inch & you could move it back & forth at least an inch. this was a result
of poor drilling technique in setting up the wing pins. The 1/4' pins were
replaced with 5/16" bolts, and there respective holes were drilled out &
fitted with oillit bushings that were pressed & epoxied inplace. Oilite
bushings were used in all bearing surfaces in the T mixer & in the control
stick, Nylon V blocks clamped to the cotrol tube keeped it from flopping up
& down & flappin the flaperons. Lastly, installing a steel collar around
the inboard edge of the wing tube & Xing it tremendously stiffened the wing
as far as twist goes
Doing all this mad the plane a pure joy to fly. It was much more
responsive & predictable. The flutter never revisited that craft again.
On a MKII I briefly owned, I could get the empenage to flutter when I
had a passenger aboard & we would do a fast gradual descent above 70mph. I
never did have the time to figure out what was going on there, but it was a
slow oscilation & never became threatening.
On my present SlingShot, it has mass balanced flapperons & I percieved
zero flutter in some faily wild conditions. ....Richard Swiderski
----- Original Message -----
From: <ul15rhb(at)juno.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flutter
>
> >
> >
> > Hi Guys,
> > I'm a new guy. Met Lar at Paulden (AZ)_last month. I'm the one
> > with a red MkIII. I also have a Firestar. (It's for sale, but I'm
> > not telling anyone 'cuz I really like the plane.) I'm not a builder
> > (yet) since I bought both planes used.
> > Y'know they say that it's not one thing that causes an accident,
> > but a combination. I can vouch for that. I took the Firestar apart
> > after I'd flown about 30 hrs and painted it. (It wasn't UV
> > protected.) When I put it back together I didn't hook up the ASI
> > correctly, and so it was reading real, real slow. I decided to not
> > land and just fly by the seat of my pants for awhile and , later,
> > dipped down to check out a creek bed.
> > That's when it hit the fan. The whole plane started to shake,
> > rattle & roll and there wasn't even any music playing. I
> > immediately pulled back power and eased back on the stick and it
> > stopped. Scared the hell out of me. I headed back to the strip and
> > landed. I checked with a number of experts (including Kolb) and
> > they said "aileron flutter." Ordered the weights from Kolb and we
> > installed them. My instructor tested it and said he'd exceeded Vne
> > with no problems. I haven't had a problem since.
> > Arizona Dave
>
> Dave,
>
> What kind of Firestar do you have? Original, KX, KXP, or a new model
> Firestar (ones with vertical aileron push rods)?
>
> Ralph
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | possums <possums(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FULL ENCLOSURE/KXP...INFO WANTED |
>
>
> Hello gang!!! I'am having one Hel*&$%#@### of a time trying to
>install the original full enclosure that came with the kit on a firestar
>kxp model. first of all my nose cone was not installed to spec. to
>accept the door panel, should be 48" from panel to rear of cage, which
>it is not... 2nd of all you need three guys to hold windshield, piano
>hinge and support tubes (5/8 x 0.058") and try and rivet. just want to
>know how many of you have installed this type with the door panel. i
>think i may just have a full wrap around windshield bend it, get in and
>close it.
You can do it that way - you know.
http://www.mindspring.com/~possums/Sideview.jpg
http://www.mindspring.com/~possums/Airscoops.jpg
http://www.mindspring.com/~possums/Gapseal.jpg
The faster you go - the tighter it seals.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jerb <ulflyer(at)airmail.net> |
| Subject: | Engine, Drive & Prop Rotation |
Folks,
Someone posted a message list the rotation direction for various engines
and drive configurations. I thought I kept a copy but can't find
it. Search the archives and can't turn it up either. This was posted say
within the last month. If you happen to recall it and can give me a clue
what date it was sent I would be grateful.
Thanks,
jerb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
Dear Listers,
There are only a few days left until the November List of Contributors. I
thought I'd take another opportunity to pass along some of the really nice
things people have been saying recently about the Lists and how much they
mean to them.
If you receive value from the Lists in the form of ideas, assistance,
comradery, moral support, inspiration, or just plain 'ol good
entertainment, then won't take a moment to make a Contribution to support
the continued operation and upgrade of them?
Secure List Contribution Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution
What does the List mean to you? Here's what some of your fellow
contributing List members have said...
------------------------- What Listers Are Saying -------------------------
Great service for aviation types like me.
Larry H
Best investment I've made.
Harley B
I've been on this list since around 1996 and used it to
help me finish my RV-6A three years ago. I'm still here
because I still learn from it and use it to help others
like me who may be where nobody else is building a RV.
Thanks for your service to our community. It's appreciated.
Jim S
[List] people are a great break away from politics, religion
and other sordid subjects.
Robert B
This site is a great confidence builder for the amateur builder.
Gene L
Great service!
Barry P
Very handy list to have, a good place for a beginner to
get great answers from those who already experienced it.
...sure enjoy reading it.
Joel R
...valuable service!
Chris & Indira K
This is the better than any morning paper - the best and
most frequent service that I use on the Internet. Great
job! This will make building the RV doable for me.
Pete E
I enjoy all of the ideas, suggestions and humor that comes
with this list. I don't think I could build my RV4 with
out everyone's help.
Ross S
GRRRRRRRRRRRREAT!
James W
The list is a great source of information, motivation,
entertainment, passionate debate, and light-hearted back
slapping. I wouldn't be without it.
Roger H
...would still be looking for plans to hook-up s-tec auto
pilot without your service!
David S
The new [digest] format is good.
Graham S
Great information you can't get anywhere else. Lots of nice
people who have "Been there...done that."
George D
My normal morning routine:
1 Kiss "the princess"
2 Good cup of coffee
3 Log onto "List"
A wonderful means of exchanging ideas, asking questions,
gathering information, and sharing experiences.
Robert G
Great lists. Not only are the lists professionally and efficiently
managed, but the *people* on the lists are very helpful, friendly
and fun to chat with. Thank you for this wonderful resource.
Ihab A
Thanks a million, well maybe not a million!!! (:
Ken H
I need this fix every morning or I get grumpy...
Wayne P
Very useful lists
Paul E
This communication medium that you created, nurtured and
continue to maintain is the best thing since AN rivets!
Jim J
The information I gleaned off the list has always been
helpful.
Kenneth B
I've been a subscriber to varied lists for several years
now. The knowledge provided has been extremely useful
throughout.
David P
Enjoy everyone's input even though I am not a
builder...just a flyer.
Douglas P
Just laughin' and a scratchin'
Dennis N
It is a real asset and good for comic relief.
Ross S
I can't build my plane without your service!
Kent H
Great info on the lists!
Wesley H
I'm very new to the List but have already benefited
greatly.
Jim S
The "List" has been my best source for information
concerning my aviation projects. Besides, it also
brings a bunch of people together to share their
interests and knowledge. Thanks for providing a
state of the art, easy to use resource tool.
David A
I have saved a lot of grief and dollars from referencing
this site. It is truly an extension of Van's product
support.
Joseph C
Terrific asset this List is to the builder!
Scott J
Great service!
Tony B
Look forward to the list each and every day.
John B
I could not cope up here in this lonely island without
the help of the List and all the wonderful helpful
people that have the experience of aircraft building
and flying for fun.
Johann J
This list is part of my daily routine. I'm addicted.
Terry D
Great forum!
John H
This list is my main interest in the Internet.
George R
Great list. The best out there on any subject.
Kevin H
Been on the list since 1998 and I still look forward to
reading the list every day. A most valuable tool. I have
picked up many useful tips during the construction of
my RV-4.
Jerry I
Thanks for all of your hard work on the lists. It is
one of the reasons I bought a CJ-6A. Without the
Yak-list, I believe it would have been much more
difficult to get all the information that I need
for safe operation and maintenance of this fine
aircraft.
David L
The List has been an amazing source of useful
information. I consider it one of my best builder
tools.
Gunter M
An excellent channel of information. I have gained a
wealth of knowledge on both building and flying Kolb
aircraft.
Jim B
Enjoy the wealth of information that is shared.
Richard N
Fine service.
Beauford T
[The] List is the first stop of the day. Made lot of
friends from it.
Orie S
The information I gleaned off the List has always been
helpful.
Kenneth B
Over the 3+ years that I have been building, I check it
several times each day. I have learned a lot of very
useful tips that have helped me in my building.
Richard D
Not only is it worth a contribution for the info gleaned
from it but the personalities alone are pure entertainment!
Stephen F
This is great stuff!!! Entertaining, too!! Fast answers
from those who really know...
Bob R
I am building an RV-9A and have received help from
the lists and occasionally been able to give help to
others.
Alden Van W
This list has saved me countless hours of work and worry
already, and I'm only halfway there! Undoubtedly the most
important aid I have yet found in this sometimes
intimidating process of building an aircraft.
Paul H
I've been a member since '96 and have learned so much from
the vast knowledge of the listers.
Gary Z
Outstanding List, exceptionally maintained.
David S
Thanks for all the improvements you've made this year. The
Photoshare feature definitely proves "one picture is worth
a thousand words".
Richard H
I finished my RV6A this year. It is a much better airplane
because of the help I found on the RV and Aeroelectric
Lists.
Dale W
Can't imagine building without the list.
Larry H
The list continues to be a great resource of information
and advice.
Jeff O
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Gerken" <gerken(at)us.ibm.com> |
11/26/2002 06:52:50 AM
>Arrrrgggghhh ! ! ! No sooner hit "send" and saw some clamps on the same
>page that I've been curious about. Does anyone have experience with the
>"Speed Clamps" on the same page, center of the right column ?? (Tinnerman
>A3122) I'm looking for strong clamps that'll conform to fairly small
hose.
>The regular heavy duty screw clamps (hose clamps ??) have too wide a
center
>section, and leave a flat spot, instead of even pressure all the way
around.
>Thanks. GoGittum Lar.
I am behind on my mail, so if someone already answered your request I am
sorry for the delay.
The best sealing hose clamps I have found are the Oetiker Stepless
stainless type. Available from McMaster Carr. Try them, you'll never
settle for a screw-drive again.
Jim Gerken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jimmy <jhankin(at)planters.net> |
Asked the list yesterday about aileron flutter on a firefly. No one responded,
so I guess that no one on the list with a Firefly has had this problem.
I have had no occurrence of this, but then I don't fly fast only about 55 or 60.
Thanks anyway.
Jimmy Hankinson
912-863-7384
Rocky Ford, Ga. 30455
jhankin(at)planters.net
Kolb Firefly/447/240hrs
Local field, Pegasus/2000/Grass
Airport JYL/Sylvania, Ga.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart(at)ldd.net> |
>
>Asked the list yesterday about aileron flutter on a firefly. No one responded,
so I guess that no one on the list with a Firefly has had this problem.
>I have had no occurrence of this, but then I don't fly fast only about 55 or 60.
>
>Thanks anyway.
>
Jimmy,
I have been following this thread but not with a great deal of interest until it
hit me that some of the problems I had with the FireFly may have been high frequency
aileron flutter, and I did not recognize at the time that was the cause.
Early, when I was flying cross country to EAA Chapter 453 meetings, I noticed
a drumming sound, I blamed it on the IVO three blade prop. Changed to a
two blade IVO at 19 hours total time, and the drumming noise went away.
One other time, I remember hearing a buzzing noise and after I checked things out
I found one of the aileron gap seals had become partially attached. I re-cemented
the gap seal and the buzz has not reappeared.
At about 52 hours total time, I was returning from air show in Poplar Bluff to
Perryville, MO, and I noticed a clicking noise. Upon checking it out, I discovered
the left inboard aileron hinge pin was worn to the point that the hinge
would make a clicking noise if one wiggled the aileron up and down from behind
the hinge. I was a little shocked at this because during preflight I grab the
ailerons and shake them, but I was grabbing the ailerons and shaking them between
the outer and middle hinges. Currently, as a preflight, I shake the ailerons
at the trailing edge and behind each hinge.
I replaced the hinge pin, and I made some modifications to remove all slop from
the aileron control system. The aileron pivot hole passing through the inboard
steel rib had excessive clearance and so I shimmed the pivot bolt with brass
shim stock. The shim stock is held in place with JBWeld. Next I removed one
side of the clevis on the aileron horn and bolted the push rod bearing directly
to the remaining side of the clevis. This removed all slop from this connection.
Also, I used brass shim stock to remove as much of the play from the
aileron crank mechanism that passes below the seat.
Some of these modifications can be seen at:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly54.html
I have never felt anything through the stick to indicate aileron flutter caused
by excessive air speed. I believe all of the problems I have seen with the FireFly
were caused/induced by engine/prop caused vibration. The most important
thing one can do is to check aileron hinges and linkages, and to remove or minimize
all slack or free play and to reduce engine/prop vibration to a minimum.
The FireFly has just over 89 hours total time, and the replacement aileron hinge
pin is still tight.
I hope this is of help.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart(at)ldd.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firefly flutter |
| From: | CaptainRon <CaptainRon(at)theriver.com> |
Well I'd say ballance them anyway Jim. Its easy to do, you can make the
ballance from any tube with some weight attached within it, or get the Kolb
kit. You can never tell when the wear factor and some other variables will
allow your controls to loosen up enough for flutter to start. No reason not
to do it, and every reason to do it. :-)
11/26/02 6:48Jimmy
>
> Asked the list yesterday about aileron flutter on a firefly. No one
> responded, so I guess that no one on the list with a Firefly has had this
> problem.
> I have had no occurrence of this, but then I don't fly fast only about 55 or
> 60.
>
> Thanks anyway.
>
> Jimmy Hankinson
> 912-863-7384
> Rocky Ford, Ga. 30455
> jhankin(at)planters.net
> Kolb Firefly/447/240hrs
> Local field, Pegasus/2000/Grass
> Airport JYL/Sylvania, Ga.
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Original Firestar flutter |
| From: | ul15rhb(at)juno.com |
Same here Jimmy. I asked for a poll of all Original Firestar owners who
had flutter and got no responses. Maybe the old ones were designed right
the first time.
Ralph
>
> Asked the list yesterday about aileron flutter on a firefly. No one
> responded, so I guess that no one on the list with a Firefly has had
> this problem.
> I have had no occurrence of this, but then I don't fly fast only
> about 55 or 60.
>
> Thanks anyway.
>
> Jimmy Hankinson
> 912-863-7384
> Rocky Ford, Ga. 30455
> jhankin(at)planters.net
> Kolb Firefly/447/240hrs
> Local field, Pegasus/2000/Grass
> Airport JYL/Sylvania, Ga.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Original Firestar flutter |
> Same here Jimmy. I asked for a poll of all Original Firestar owners who
> had flutter and got no responses. Maybe the old ones were designed right
> the first time.
>
> Ralph
Ralph/Gents:
Basically, there is not difference in design of
any of the Kolb ailerons on any model. They are
built and hung on the trailing edge of the wing in
the same manner.
Linkage has nothing to do with the flutter
problem, although if ailerons are not counter
weighted loose linkage will help initiate flutter.
The primary cause of flutter is heavy unbalance
ailerons and airspeed. Where that airspeed is is
not magic, but some are slower and some are
faster.
The prevention and cure is simple for those that
want it.
Usually, when aileron flutter hits, you will be
the most surprised, startled, scared person to
know.
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bourne" <biglar(at)gogittum.com> |
OK, I also see them on the same page 114 in the '01/'02 AC Spruce catalog,
right below the speed clamps I was advised to stay away from. I'll order
some and give them a try. Thanks. Vamoose & Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Gerken" <gerken(at)us.ibm.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: clamps
>
>
> >Arrrrgggghhh ! ! ! No sooner hit "send" and saw some clamps on the same
> >page that I've been curious about. Does anyone have experience with the
> >"Speed Clamps" on the same page, center of the right column ??
(Tinnerman
> >A3122) I'm looking for strong clamps that'll conform to fairly small
> hose.
> >The regular heavy duty screw clamps (hose clamps ??) have too wide a
> center
> >section, and leave a flat spot, instead of even pressure all the way
> around.
> >Thanks. GoGittum Lar.
>
> I am behind on my mail, so if someone already answered your request I am
> sorry for the delay.
> The best sealing hose clamps I have found are the Oetiker Stepless
> stainless type. Available from McMaster Carr. Try them, you'll never
> settle for a screw-drive again.
>
>
> Jim Gerken
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "T. K. Frantz" <tkrolfe(at)usadatanet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firefly flutter |
Jimmy wrote:
>
> Asked the list yesterday about aileron flutter on a firefly. No one responded,
so I guess that no one on the list with a Firefly has had this problem.
> I have had no occurrence of this, but then I don't fly fast only about 55 or
60.
>
> Thanks anyway.
>
> Jimmy Hankinson
> 912-863-7384
> Rocky Ford, Ga. 30455
> jhankin(at)planters.net
> Kolb Firefly/447/240hrs
> Local field, Pegasus/2000/Grass
> Airport JYL/Sylvania, Ga.
>
Jimmy,
Back when I was just beginning, I had an experience with flutter. I was flying
with a friend that has and older single seat Drifter. We had flown for
about 45 minutes when he suddenly started to swoop down and I thought he was going
to buzz someone he knew. Turns out his engine quit and he was doing a
dead stick, heading for a fenced in horse field. There was a real nice open field
to our left, but it was guarded by high tension wires at one end and
trees at the other. He made a good landing, but kept rolling and rolling, finally
coming to a stop against the trees at the end. What I couldn't see from
on top was that the field sloped and he has no brakes.
Now I'm concerned about how he is and trying to decided how to get down, since
I have less than 50 hr.'s. of flying time at that point and don't want to
attempt a landing in this horse field. I finally decided to give it a try and
made an OK landing having to dodge large piles of horse shit. Find out that
he is OK and that I would need to fly back home and drive down to pick him up.
The owner of the field was "very" anxious for me to get out of his field.
Made it out after two or three false lift-off's due to the bumps in the field.
Climbed out and began heading home. A few minutes later my FireFly started
shaking violently and scared the hell out of me. I thought, sure now I have a
major problem! Looked all around and didn't see anything wrong until I saw
my hand on the stick.
The excitement of what had just happened and the cold, I wasn't dressed warm enough,
led to my shaking and it turned out that I was causing the problem
because my hand was shaking so badly. Had to clamp both of my knees against my
stick hand to stop the shaking and lo and behold the plane stopped shaking
also. Flew the rest of the way home with my knees firmly clamped against the stick
hand.
That has been my only experience in the FireFly with any kind of flutter. Now
have 176 hr.'s on it.
Like you, I don't fly fast, not what I built it for!
Sorry for the windy story, just thought you might see the humor in it. We did
extract his Drifter from that field and I helped him repair it and he now
accompanies me again.
Terry Frantz
Quarryville. PA
FireFly # 95 175 hr.
Private grass strip
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart(at)ldd.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Original Firestar flutter |
>
>
>> Same here Jimmy. I asked for a poll of all Original Firestar owners who
>> had flutter and got no responses. Maybe the old ones were designed right
>> the first time.
>>
>> Ralph
>
>Ralph/Gents:
>
>
>Linkage has nothing to do with the flutter
>problem, although if ailerons are not counter
>weighted loose linkage will help initiate flutter.
>
If there is no aileron control system looseness, one will feel aileron flutter
onset at an earlier stage in the stick. Also no play in the system means that
system stiffness is increased so there is a better chance that the onset of flutter
will be delayed to a higher speed and flutter amplitude build up will be
slower which gives one more time to reduce speed and get out of the situation
with out structural failure.
And if there is no aileron control system play, the plane flies better ailerons
balanced or unbalanced.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart(at)ldd.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim and Phyllis Hefner" <hefners_tucson(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firefly flutter |
Jimmy, no flutter whatsoever on my FF (#013-105hrs TT). I have had VG's
installed since around 60hrs, so I don't know what affect they have on
flutter, but they did stop the overbanking tendency that I experienced
without them.
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
Date: Tue Nov 26 - 5:49 AM
Asked the list yesterday about aileron flutter on a firefly. No
one responded, so I guess that no one on the list with a Firefly has had
this problem.
I have had no occurrence of this, but then I don't fly fast only
about 55 or 60.
Thanks anyway.
Jimmy Hankinson
912-863-7384
Rocky Ford, Ga. 30455
jhankin(at)planters.net
Kolb Firefly/447/240hrs
Local field, Pegasus/2000/Grass
Airport JYL/Sylvania, Ga.
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Original Firestar flutter |
> If there is no aileron control system looseness, one will feel aileron flutter
onset at an earlier stage in the stick. Also no play in the system means that
system stiffness is increased so there is a better chance that the onset of
flutter will be delayed to a higher speed and flutter amplitude build up will
be slower which gives one more time to reduce speed and get out of the situation
with out structural failure.
> Jack B. Hart FF004
Jack/Gents:
The above may be true. However, not all flutter
sneaks up on you. Also, a brand new airplane with
squeaking tight control system will flutter. You
won't have time to think cause at times, as in my
case, the flutter is explosively initiated.
What I was trying to impress on the List was not
to fly intentionally with extremely sloppy control
systems, but ya could if ya had counterbalance
weights.
A little aileron balance eliminates the concern
for the degrees of "tightness" in your aileron
control system. With counterbalance weights,
there will be no flutter.
Nope, I don't like to fly with a bunch of slop in
the controls. Instead of chasing a problem by
changing rod end bearings every 25 hours, loading
ailerons with trim tabs, and all the other
unprofessional experimentation I was doing trying
to prevent flutter, the problem was solved with
the counterbalance weights. The last time I
changed a rod end bearing since the Mark III had
aprx 200 hours, was a couple hundred hours ago
when I was getting ready to go to Alaska. Most of
my rod end bearings have more than 1,500 hours on
them. Reason I changed the out: Battery acid had
corroded the outside of the bearing housing, not
because it had any minute amount of play.
My Mark III has some play/looseness in the aileron
control system, but it is acceptable to me and I
don't concern myself with a nagging flutter
problem anymore.
End of flutter discussion on my end. I am about
fluttered out. I have the solution and the peace
of mind to fly and enjoy.
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SR3SA2L1(at)aol.com |
Has anyone had any good or bad experience using those plastic alligator
toothed hose clamps (you squeeze them and they self lock)?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jerb <ulflyer(at)airmail.net> |
Jack,
I don't think you were getting flutter. It more likely you were hearing
the noise created by the prop passing the exhaust or the trailing edge of
the wing. Dennis claimed use of the prop extension made a significant
reduction in the noise level created as the blades passed the trailing
edges of the wings. The three blade would change the pitch. I've never
have nor has my partner ever commented on experiencing what would be
perceived as flaperon flutter on our FireFly (145 hours).
jerb
>
> >
> >Asked the list yesterday about aileron flutter on a firefly. No one
> responded, so I guess that no one on the list with a Firefly has had this
> problem.
> >I have had no occurrence of this, but then I don't fly fast only about
> 55 or 60.
> >
> >Thanks anyway.
> >
>
>
>Jimmy,
>
>I have been following this thread but not with a great deal of interest
>until it hit me that some of the problems I had with the FireFly may have
>been high frequency aileron flutter, and I did not recognize at the time
>that was the cause. Early, when I was flying cross country to EAA Chapter
>453 meetings, I noticed a drumming sound, I blamed it on the IVO three
>blade prop. Changed to a two blade IVO at 19 hours total time, and the
>drumming noise went away.
>
>One other time, I remember hearing a buzzing noise and after I checked
>things out I found one of the aileron gap seals had become partially
>attached. I re-cemented the gap seal and the buzz has not reappeared.
>
>At about 52 hours total time, I was returning from air show in Poplar
>Bluff to Perryville, MO, and I noticed a clicking noise. Upon checking it
>out, I discovered the left inboard aileron hinge pin was worn to the point
>that the hinge would make a clicking noise if one wiggled the aileron up
>and down from behind the hinge. I was a little shocked at this because
>during preflight I grab the ailerons and shake them, but I was grabbing
>the ailerons and shaking them between the outer and middle
>hinges. Currently, as a preflight, I shake the ailerons at the trailing
>edge and behind each hinge.
>
>I replaced the hinge pin, and I made some modifications to remove all slop
>from the aileron control system. The aileron pivot hole passing through
>the inboard steel rib had excessive clearance and so I shimmed the pivot
>bolt with brass shim stock. The shim stock is held in place with
>JBWeld. Next I removed one side of the clevis on the aileron horn and
>bolted the push rod bearing directly to the remaining side of the
>clevis. This removed all slop from this connection. Also, I used brass
>shim stock to remove as much of the play from the aileron crank mechanism
>that passes below the seat.
>
>Some of these modifications can be seen at:
>
>http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly54.html
>
>I have never felt anything through the stick to indicate aileron flutter
>caused by excessive air speed. I believe all of the problems I have seen
>with the FireFly were caused/induced by engine/prop caused vibration. The
>most important thing one can do is to check aileron hinges and linkages,
>and to remove or minimize all slack or free play and to reduce engine/prop
>vibration to a minimum.
>
>The FireFly has just over 89 hours total time, and the replacement aileron
>hinge pin is still tight.
>
>I hope this is of help.
>
>Jack B. Hart FF004
>Jackson, MO
>
>
>Jack & Louise Hart
>jbhart(at)ldd.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Original Firestar flutter |
| From: | ul15rhb(at)juno.com |
> Ralph/Gents:
>
> Basically, there is not difference in design of
> any of the Kolb ailerons on any model. They are
> built and hung on the trailing edge of the wing in
> the same manner.
>snip>
> john h
John, there is a difference between the ailerons on the Original Firestar
and the later models. I have the plans of the Original Firestar and the
late model Firestars I and II. The Original Firestar ailerons are
full-span (10.56') long with a taper of 1.23' inboard and 11" outboard.
The Firestar I ailerons are the same as the Original. The Firestar II
model ailerons are shorter with a span of only 8' and no taper (11"). I
think most builders opt for the Firestar II model when building, so I
would suspect the majority of late model Firestars have ailerons built
with no taper and are shorter by 2.5'.
It's entirely possible the reason we have not seen flutter on the
Original's is due to the taper and longer span. Just a guess.
Tell me more about your flutter experience in the Original Firestar you
had. Do you remember what speed and attitude you were at when it started?
Any info would be appreciated ....
Thanks,
Ralph
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Jones" <kevin-jones(at)snet.net> |
Give a greenhorn some help. How do those counterbalances look. Can
someone draw me a picture or could you describe them for me.
kj
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Gherardini" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flutter
>
> Dear Len, Thank you for so much very good info on flutter. And as far as
> you keeping you posts shorter in the future, DONT YOU DARE !, Any time you
> have the desire to share so much of your expierience in here, I certainly
> welcome you to post your thoughts in their entirety! dont worry, this aint
> readers digest!
>
> In the Last 3 weeks, I have had a couple of my A&P buddies, actually old
> classmates and Spartan Alumni in my shed looking over my Firefly project.
> Both these guys have spent alot of their carreer time working in AC
> manufacturing, one , still at American in Tulsa, and the other for 15
years
> at FairChild/D-Howard in San Antoine. Now, you talk about steeped in
> regulations, after spending so much time in GA, these guys spout FAR'S out
> of habit. Anyway...one asked after looking at the wings and ailerons, "How
> are the control surfaces balanced?"...........when I said there were no
> provisions in the plans for balancing the surfaces, the other fella
quickly
> asked.."What did you say the speed envelope was?".....When I described the
> expected performance, they both looked at me and said almost in unison,
"Do
> you want us to help you balance them?"..." You ARE gonna right?"
>
> Don Gherardini
> FireFly 098
> Central Illinois
>
>
=
> _->
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart(at)ldd.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firefly flutter |
Jimmy,
After all the discussion, I thought why not go to the experts, TNK. I called and
asked the question "Have you heard of any aileron flutter problems on the FireFly?"
Next I asked "Is there was an aileron balancing kit available for a
FireFly?" And then I asked "Do you intend to ever offer a aileron balancing kit
for a FireFly?" The answer to all three questions was "No."
So, I would not worry about balancing the ailerons on your FireFly.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart(at)ldd.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Beauford Tuton" <beauford(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firefly flutter |
Jimmy:
Have dived FF #076 to near VNE (85mph indicated ) with no trace of flutter
so far... This was when I was first getting the feel of the thing trying to
make sure nothing major was going to come off the airplane...... I don't
make a practice of operating out on the edge of the little bird's
envelope... it rarely sees over 68 indicated, usually operating around 60
indicated or less...(have low confidence in the airspeed indications)...
My ailerons are likely at the heavy end of the weight range... 15 inch
chord with 3 criss-cross coats of silver on top under the color coats...
Mebbe after things (hinges and linkages) loosen up some more, something
flutterish will develop, but so far, so good at 80 hours.
By the way, I have noticed the yaw oscillation some Kolbers described...
when I put my feet flat on the floor, within 10 seconds the airplane starts
a pronounced tail-wag... It only develops so far in amplitude... seems self
limiting... I sat and watched it for about a minute one time... never got to
be what I would call threatening, but was clearly present. It stopped
immediately when I placed one foot on one rudder pedal. I initially thought
this yaw problem might be related to the fact that my tail boom is 5 inches
shorter than the plans specify, but after reading that others have
experienced the same thing, it likely ain't...
When the first Firefly has the first major aileron flutter problem, I'll
probably add the counterweights...
Beauford, Aluminum Butcher of Brandon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jimmy" <jhankin(at)planters.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: Firefly flutter
>
> Asked the list yesterday about aileron flutter on a firefly. No one
responded, so I guess that no one on the list with a Firefly has had this
problem.
> I have had no occurrence of this, but then I don't fly fast only about 55
or 60.
>
> Thanks anyway.
>
> Jimmy Hankinson
> 912-863-7384
> Rocky Ford, Ga. 30455
> jhankin(at)planters.net
> Kolb Firefly/447/240hrs
> Local field, Pegasus/2000/Grass
> Airport JYL/Sylvania, Ga.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Original Firestar flutter |
| From: | ul15rhb(at)juno.com |
John and others,
I'm beginning to think there are marked differences in characteristics
between the two types of ailerons on Kolb aircraft (long and tapered vs
short and non-tapered). The long and tapered on the Originals, KX, and
KXP somehow resist any kind of flutter (I don't know enough about the
Firefly to comment).
One more thing that I forgot to mention and the reason I'm responding to
your post is that I had, up until last year, a half inch of slop in my
control stick in roll control. Why was this? Because the stick I got
with my kit was drilled out too large (factory error) and I lived with
the slop all those years until I was able to get one that was drilled
right. Soooooo, with a half inch of slop in the aileron control system,
one would think this 'ol Firestar would be a prime candidate for flutter.
Well, it flew that way for 15 years without a problem at speeds up to 90
mph.
John, I'm not dodging the issue of getting some counter weights, but do
think there might be a good reason most of us have not seen flutter
without counter weights.
I may consider getting some ......
Ralph
> Jack/Gents:
>
> The above may be true. However, not all flutter
> sneaks up on you. Also, a brand new airplane with
> squeaking tight control system will flutter. You
> won't have time to think cause at times, as in my
> case, the flutter is explosively initiated.
>
> What I was trying to impress on the List was not
> to fly intentionally with extremely sloppy control
> systems, but ya could if ya had counterbalance
> weights.
>
> A little aileron balance eliminates the concern
> for the degrees of "tightness" in your aileron
> control system. With counterbalance weights,
> there will be no flutter.
>
> Nope, I don't like to fly with a bunch of slop in
> the controls. Instead of chasing a problem by
> changing rod end bearings every 25 hours, loading
> ailerons with trim tabs, and all the other
> unprofessional experimentation I was doing trying
> to prevent flutter, the problem was solved with
> the counterbalance weights. The last time I
> changed a rod end bearing since the Mark III had
> aprx 200 hours, was a couple hundred hours ago
> when I was getting ready to go to Alaska. Most of
> my rod end bearings have more than 1,500 hours on
> them. Reason I changed the out: Battery acid had
> corroded the outside of the bearing housing, not
> because it had any minute amount of play.
>
> My Mark III has some play/looseness in the aileron
> control system, but it is acceptable to me and I
> don't concern myself with a nagging flutter
> problem anymore.
>
> End of flutter discussion on my end. I am about
> fluttered out. I have the solution and the peace
> of mind to fly and enjoy.
>
> john h
>
>
>
> _->
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Original Firestar flutter |
Ralph/Gents:
> John, there is a difference between the ailerons on the Original Firestar
> and the later models.
I am fully aware that all Kolb ailerons are not
the same dimension. What I was trying to get
across was, "the design principal for all model
Kolb aircraft is basically the same." That is to
say, "they all hang from a leading edge hinge.
All weight is on one side of the pivot point."
Length, width, cord, thickness, color does not
have much to do with it. The fact that all that
static weight is hanging out there on one side of
the pivot is. The solution is to put some weight
on the other side of the hinge line. This stops
flutter. Period. :-)
I did not start screwing around with the flutter
problem in Kolb aircraft last week. I have been
involved with it for over 18 years in three
different model Kolb aircraft. My flutter problem
was solved in Sep 1993, when I installed counter
balance weights. I put a little weight on the
other side of the hinge line to help balance the
damn ailerons.
> Tell me more about your flutter experience in the Original Firestar you
> had. Do you remember what speed and attitude you were at when it started?
I haven't flown my original Firestar since 11
March 1990. Been almost 13 years ago. I do not
remember at what speeds it went into flutter, but
it was probably over vne, most times in turbulent
air, or hitting a bump in the air. The Ultrastar
would go into flutter at 65 miles an hour on a
straight and level cross country flight with no
turbulence. Firestar was about 70 to 90 mph. I
have had the Firestar go into flutter with the
engine shut down in a 90 mph dive, also coming out
of a loop at 70 or 80 mph.
Ya'll have fun with this flutter. Hopefully, I
have already had mine and don't want no mo!!!
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Original Firestar flutter |
Ralph/Gents:
I am not trying to sell aileron counter balance
weights any more than I am trying to sell
parachutes. If I was a supplier and made my
living selling these items, Yes! But I am not. I
am just one guy that has been there and done
that. I share my experience with you all so you
don't have to make the same mistakes. Your
decision to do exactly what you want to do. If
you do not believe me, makes not a hill of beans.
Your choice.
The fact that you control stick was drilled
inaccurately and oversize producing a lot of
lateral slop in the stick really does not have
much bearing on aileron flutter. The key is the
controls that tie the left and the right aileron
together. Those parts that siamese them together,
but allow them to move exactly opposite of each
other.
Hell, if you don't need them don't put them on.
Wait until someone else bust their ass, then put
them on. Same same parchute. :-)
john h
PS: Homer Kolb and Dennis Souder would not listen
and did not believe me when I explained to them
that I was having aileron flutter problems with
the US, FS, and the Mk III. When Dicky "Pooh"
Rahill came close to busting his ass with aileron
flutter down at Sun and Fun one year, all of the
sudden they came up with some workable
counterbalance weights. That was Sun and Fun
1993, cause I got a set of Firestar weights to put
on my Mark III in Sep 1993.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Pike <rwpike(at)preferred.com> |
Yep. They work great until they get a few years on them, or some time out
in the sun, then they get brittle and break.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>Has anyone had any good or bad experience using those plastic alligator
>toothed hose clamps (you squeeze them and they self lock)?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Original Firestar flutter |
> A while back I called the old Kolb people and asked them if I should put a
> counter balance on my old Firestar and they said that with the old Firestar
> they used the larger ailrons and that they did not need to have the
> counterweights on them. I have had mine up to 80mph with no sign of a
> problem.
>
> Steve
Steve/Gents:
Who did you talk to and what year was that?
You make want to get a second oppinion. :-)
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
> Weather got real good for my flight down to Brownsville, TX, and back the
> other day.
John Williamson
John/Gents:
Poor ole Kolbra is getting no rest.
Good to see you enjoying your airplane, doing a
little cross country.
How many hours and how is the Jabiru performing?
What is your fuel burn, what rpm, and what cruise
airspeed?
How about all up weight on take off?
I have looked at you pics and especially enjoyed
the ones from Corpus Cristy to Brownsville. Was a
friendly reminder of Miss P'fer flying the same
route, down the coast and across the King Ranch.
Was my first taste of flying in a sparsely
populated area. Looking forward to doing it
again.
A quick check of your US map also indicated I have
missed three states out of 49 in the North
American Continent:
Colorado
Utah
Nevada
If I could have made my flight out to Copperstate
this year I could have easily gotten these three
states. Perhaps next year.
Take care,
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firefly flutter |
Jim et al,
I have over 128 Hrs on my Fly and have had no flutter at speeds up to 90 mph and
in some fairly bad winds. I do not have aileron counterbalances.
Duane the plane, Tallahassee, FL, FireFly SN 007, 447, two blade Ivo.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jimmy
Subject: Kolb-List: Firefly flutter
Asked the list yesterday about aileron flutter on a firefly. No one responded,
so I guess that no one on the list with a Firefly has had this problem.
I have had no occurrence of this, but then I don't fly fast only about 55 or 60.
Thanks anyway.
Jimmy Hankinson
912-863-7384
Rocky Ford, Ga. 30455
jhankin(at)planters.net
Kolb Firefly/447/240hrs
Local field, Pegasus/2000/Grass
Airport JYL/Sylvania, Ga.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary robert voigt" <johndeereantique(at)qwest.net> |
| Subject: | Re: FULL ENCLOSURE/KXP...INFO WANTED |
Hello possums, i like the way you mounted your winshield, it looks like
i will just have to do a little custom work. i like your rubber seal in
front, where did you get it?
also what thickness lexan did you use .090"?
also how is your door handle made and attached? sorry about all the questions
but i may go the way you did.
thanks,
Gary r. voigt
possums wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hello gang!!! I'am having one Hel*&$%#@### of a time trying to
> >install the original full enclosure that came with the kit on a firestar
> >kxp model. first of all my nose cone was not installed to spec. to
> >accept the door panel, should be 48" from panel to rear of cage, which
> >it is not... 2nd of all you need three guys to hold windshield, piano
> >hinge and support tubes (5/8 x 0.058") and try and rivet. just want to
> >know how many of you have installed this type with the door panel. i
> >think i may just have a full wrap around windshield bend it, get in and
> >close it.
>
> You can do it that way - you know.
>
> http://www.mindspring.com/~possums/Sideview.jpg
> http://www.mindspring.com/~possums/Airscoops.jpg
> http://www.mindspring.com/~possums/Gapseal.jpg
>
> The faster you go - the tighter it seals.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Leonard S.Voelker" <lenvoelker(at)ccis.com> |
Hi, Richard Pike, Ken Korenek and all Kolbers,
Here I go again. Richard, you and any others have my most heartfelt blessings to
spread
my words re flutter to whom ever you like. I belong to EAA chapter49 in Lancaster
CA.
One of my future projects there is to put together a presentation on flutter. I
have some neat videos on actual flutter, mostly of wind tunnel models but there
is a segment of an F-117's
(stealth fighter) modified elevator ripping off in flutter. In that instance the
pilot was able to safely land the airplane on the V-tail's other elevator Thanks
for the great pic of your rudder balance. Well done.
Kirk Smith is right on about inspecting the hinges if you have experienced flutter.
You should
also go over the entire airplane with a fine toothed comb. Flutter usually shakes
the entire
airframe violently and may overstress many places besides just the ailerons or
rudder as John Houck, Richard Pike and others know so well.
Ken, I was at LTV, Grand Prairie, TX. from 1968 to about 1974. It was so far back
my
memory eludes me. My immediate supervisor was Bill Brock. The head of Dynamics
was Lee Head. They provided the best supervision of my career and I learned a lot
from
them. Most of my time at LTV I was assigned to the A-7D Project where I was a small
part of
a large team clearing carriage of external stores (bombs, mines, fuel tanks, etc.)
of flutter on the A-7. The number of store configurations to be considered
was astronomical counting not only the proposed take-off configurations but also
all of their possible down loadings, theoretically about 5,000,000 when I
joined LTV and over 30,000,000 when I left. The work
encompassed weeding out the really flutter prone ones by analysis, wind tunnel
testing others and flight testing the "iffy" ones. Which leads to a good true
story. I was there.
One day we were flight testing one of the "iffy" configurations. The aircraft was
instrumented with a bunch of accelerometers whose signals were telemetered to a
ground
station. We engineers were all nice and safe on the ground monitoring those signals
while
the test pilot had his butt on the line. A series of test points at 10-20 knot
increments had been planned to be flown in ascending order of airspeed. At each
test point the pilot was to
provide a series of stick raps and rudder kicks for structural excitation and then
loiter while we evaluated the responses. If all looked good we would radio
the pilot clearance to proceed to the next test point. The process was slow and
tedious as usual. Things
were going fine although we noticed that the pilot was getting onto the next condition
faster
and faster. The last test point, at maximum airspeed, required the pilot to dive
the aircraft to
get there. We knew that there was an atmospheric temperature inversion that day
but didn't
think much about it. Anyway, the test plane came screaming downhill in the warm
air a little
faster than usually possible. Just as he was pulling out of the dive at the test
altitude the
airplane plunged into the more dense cold air. The dynamic pressure instantly jumped
up a
whopping 40 psf and the airplane began to flutter before any stick raps were given.
The
pilot managed to quickly pull the stick back and throttle back, climbing out of
the cold air in
only two or three seconds. The flutter stopped almost as quickly as it had started
and no
damage resulted to the aircraft. However, the test pilot's knees were still shaking
at the
post-flight briefing an hour later. The experience must have made a believer out
of him because he never ever sneaked up on the next test point again before
clearance was
granted.
Fly safe and flutter free.
Len Voelker
Mark III Xtra/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SR3SA2L1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Original Firestar flutter |
John,
I talked to them right after they came out with the counter balance on the
Firestar ( FS2 I think). I thought it was Dennis I talked to but I could be
mistaken. After reading the posts on flutter in all three control surfaces I
will now counter balance them all. Can't hurt - right?
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bourne" <biglar(at)gogittum.com> |
Yah, as the man said.............after some time, they'll break. Also, if
you put real tension on them, they sometimes won't hold the pressure, and
will pop loose. Seems like it's worse when they get hot.........maybe the
plastic softens, or something. I tried them on fuel lines and radiator
hoses, and wasn't impressed. Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <SR3SA2L1(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: clamps
>
> Has anyone had any good or bad experience using those plastic alligator
> toothed hose clamps (you squeeze them and they self lock)?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christopher Armstrong" <cen33475(at)centurytel.net> |
| Subject: | Original Firestar flutter |
I'm beginning to think there are marked differences in characteristics
between the two types of ailerons on Kolb aircraft (long and tapered vs
short and non-tapered). The long and tapered on the Originals, KX, and
KXP somehow resist any kind of flutter (I don't know enough about the
Firefly to comment).
Yah, one is long and tapered and one is short and square! So why would that
matter?
My SWAG is that because flutter is a couple between the flexing of the
structure and the unsteady aerodynamics that result from the flexing of the
structure, when the wing bends or twists most of the deflection is at the
outboard end. so the control surface area farther out on the wing tends to
be subjected to much more dynamic motion and unsteady aerodynamic forces
then the control surface area inboard. the inboard area, acting in steady
air acts as a damper for the outboard area and keeps the flutter speed
higher.
My Flutter experience is limited to the destruction of a supersonic wind
tunnel when the F-16 and air to air missile models we were separation
testing turned into a sort of a blur for less then a second and then the
missile model broke the sting out of the wind tunnel and together they went
zooming through the wind tunnels turning vanes at Mach 2.5! oops!
(fortunately it wasn't real money, just "taxpayers money"!) We were video
taping this with a 1000 frames per second camera at the time and on super
slow mo replay got to see what the actual deflections were during the blur.
It went from just perceptible on the first few oscillations to probably 35
degrees divergent just before it failed the sting.
I also got to do some flutter flight testing on the F-16 at Edwards AFB, But
nothing exciting happened while I was there, which is good.
Topher
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | possums <possums(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FULL ENCLOSURE/KXP...INFO WANTED |
>
>
> Hello possums, i like the way you mounted your winshield, it looks like
>i will just have to do a little custom work. i like your rubber seal in
>front, where did you get it?
>also what thickness lexan did you use .090"?
>also how is your door handle made and attached? sorry about all the questions
>but i may go the way you did.
>
> thanks,
> Gary r. voigt
I used the full enclosure parts off my old Firestar.
I'm sure they still sell the option??
Came with the door handle attachment
in 1989. The lexan is about 1/16th inch - not the 1/8 th inch - don't remember
the exact numbers. The black rod that loops over your head that comes with
the kit holds the back of the windshield. The rubber channel came from
Air Craft Spruce. Part # 05-01300 #1 RUBBER CHANNEL - epoxied on the lexan.
Got to duck your head a bit to get in.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jerb <ulflyer(at)airmail.net> |
I used the black squeeze clamps and didn't have any problems. The only
problem with them today is cost. They tend to be a one shot deal. Air
Discount used to sell them cheap, but every where else I see them, their
60-70 cents each, that's high for one shots. I pretty much have switched
over to small radiator screw type hose clamps. Reusable and they do the
job. I bought Walmart out a few years back (about 20 3/pkgs) before they
dropped that packaging. Had to planes to do and wanted a few extra. Glad
I did.
jerb
>
>Yep. They work great until they get a few years on them, or some time out
>in the sun, then they get brittle and break.
>Richard Pike
>MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
> >
> >Has anyone had any good or bad experience using those plastic alligator
> >toothed hose clamps (you squeeze them and they self lock)?
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Leonard S.Voelker" <lenvoelker(at)ccis.com> |
Steve,
Sorry, John but I feel compelled to horn in.
I'm afraid that I may have overstated my case for installing balance weights to
prevent control surface flutter. Installing them CAN sometimes hurt, especially
if you don't need them. Too much balance weight, while curing the control surface
flutter problem, can cause bending-torsion flutter of the primary surface.
Control surface balance weights are heavy, often weighing about as much as the
control surfaces themselves. Weight hurts performance and makes the controls feel
sluggish. Moreover, additional weight on the empennage moves the airplane's
c.g. aft significantly because of the long tail boom's moment arm. This can
unbalance the entire airplane. An aft c.g. degrades the aircraft's rigid-body
pitch stability and can be deadly if it is too far aft. It might be better sometimes
to build light-weight control surfaces, go easy on the paint and fly slower.
Based on the list's comments, aileron balance weights should be a must for Mark
III's and some other Kolb models, but not all. Rudder balance weights may sometimes
be necessary, especially if you install a navigation light on the trailing
edge (not a good idea). Elevator balance weights don't seem necessary for
any of the Kolb aircraft if built according to directions.
I can imagine instances where high speed flight might be very desirable, such as
trying to go somewhere while battling strong headwinds, getting hit by Montezuma's
revenge, or seeing an approaching thunderstorm about to engulf your emergency
landing site when you are low on fuel. High speed flight can be lots of
fun but it only seems like high speed flight if you are flying very low. High
speed flight occurs during many acrobatic maneuvers but Kolbs weren't designed
for acrobatics. All in all, I don't think that there is much danger of Kolbs
ever winning at the Reno Air Races either.
Dang, there's still no free lunch when it comes to airplanes but I hope that this
helps to "balance" out my previous comments.
Len Voelker
Mark III Xtra/?
________________________________________________________________________________
Len, let me see if I'm understand this "Balance" and "Flutter" to the extent
I think I do.
Please correct and expand on anything you see wrong here.
1: Control surfaces do not always need to be 100%balanced to prevent
flutter.???
2:The situation of repainting an Aileron surface and then having flutter
develop because of added weight might be corrected by adding enough
conterbalance to compensate for the increased weight of the paint.
(theroetically). to return the craft back to prior performance.???.
3: if a wing trailing edge in any particular design is weak and flexs...say,
in the outboard 1/4th of the wing, and the aileron attach point is similar
to Kolbs piano hinge/trailing edge method, this might be a contributing
cause and might be corrected by stiffening the outboard wing to eliminate
flex, in an effort to keep wing trailing edge and aileron in better
alignment .????
4: any of the above methods , if correct, might only raise the "flutter
envelope" to a airspeed above the normal airspeed envelope of the craft.???
5: If only increasing (raising) the speed envelope where flutter might
occour is the goal..then a minimum amount of counterbalance would be all
that is necessary to provide a wider margin of saftey in the "normally
expected" envelope of the craft. Thereby minimizing any extra flexing
moments on the wing and control surface from adding too much weight.???
I sure enjoy reading your posts , for they have been very informative.
Don Gherardini
FireFly 098
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fackler, Ken" <kfackler(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Kolb for sale in Findlay OH |
Good evening, Kolbers, and Happy Thanksgiving to one and all!
An acquaintance of mine has located a Kolb for sale in the vicinity of
Findley OH. Does anyone here know anything about this plane and/or the
seller?
-Ken Fackler
Mark II / 503
Rochester MI
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Blane Cox" <coxhb(at)hotmail.com> |
I have inadvertantly exceeded 80 MPH in my Firefly with no flutter. It was so smooth
that I was surprised I was going that fast. (I did notice my engine speeding
up.) My aileron hinge pins get replaced every 50 hours as they wear faster
than I thought they would. They leave a dark residue (smoker) on the aileron
behind the hinge. The aileron has a gap seal. Myhorizontal stabilizer bolts get
replaced every twenty hours due to a groove wear pattern that develops.
I asked the factory about aileron weights. They said it would make the FF too heavy
for UL regs.
Sadly, I sold my plane in June. So now I'm Kolbless and I can't get up! : ) So
I fly on the mailing list now and hope for another plane soon.
Blane
Johnson City, TN
MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | b young <byoung(at)brigham.net> |
Has anyone had any good or bad experience using those
plastic alligator
toothed hose clamps (you squeeze them and they self lock)?
========================
i lused the plastic clamps on the plastic hose as suplied by
kolb and after about 40 to 50 hours i noticed some stains on
the engine..... after some checking i found the hose
fittings leaking.... the clear plastic hose was also
stained where it had been in contact with the fuel.
carefull inspection showed that there was a stained line on
the inside of the plastic fule line where the plastic
clamps
came together over the plastic hose... (the stain on the
inside of the fuel lines was evidence of leakage and was
caused by a bit less
pressure at that point ) in short i was spraying a small
mist of gas on the heads, cooling fins, and exhaust stacks.
ask me how lucky i feel.
changed to black fuel line i bought at napa with gear
clamps... no more staining.
boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | b young <byoung(at)brigham.net> |
Has anyone had any good or bad experience using those
plastic alligator
toothed hose clamps (you squeeze them and they self lock)?
========================
i lused the plastic clamps on the plastic hose as suplied by
kolb and after about 40 to 50 hours i noticed some stains on
the engine..... after some checking i found the hose
fittings leaking.... the clear plastic hose was also
stained where it had been in contact with the fuel.
carefull inspection showed that there was a stained line on
the inside of the plastic fule line where the plastic
clamps
came together over the plastic hose... (the stain on the
inside of the fuel lines was evidence of leakage and was
caused by a bit less
pressure at that point ) in short i was spraying a small
mist of gas on the heads, cooling fins, and exhaust stacks.
ask me how lucky i feel.
changed to black fuel line i bought at napa with gear
clamps... no more staining.
boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ul15rhb(at)juno.com |
>
> Has anyone had any good or bad experience using those plastic
> alligator
> toothed hose clamps (you squeeze them and they self lock)?
I use them on my Firestar with the blue UV fuel line. They may start
leaking after a period of time because they don't clamp hard enough. I
can readily inspect and replace them as necessary (the rear cage area is
open for easy access). Don't use them on the fuel pump or pulse ports.
Use stainless worm clamps there and some protective covering over the
blue line so the clamps don't dig in. For the pulse line, use single-ply
auto fuel line.
I may do as Boyd suggested, using auto fuel line and worm clamps all
over. My only concern was one breaking and going through the prop. I did
have a stainless worm clamp break at the pump. Luckily, it didn't loosen
all the way.
Ralph
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | b young <byoung(at)brigham.net> |
Has anyone had any good or bad experience using those
plastic alligator
toothed hose clamps (you squeeze them and they self lock)?
========================
i lused the plastic clamps on the plastic hose as suplied by
kolb and after about 40 to 50 hours i noticed some stains on
the engine..... after some checking i found the hose
fittings leaking.... the clear plastic hose was also
stained where it had been in contact with the fuel.
carefull inspection showed that there was a stained line on
the inside of the plastic fule line where the plastic
clamps
came together over the plastic hose... (the stain on the
inside of the fuel lines was evidence of leakage and was
caused by a bit less
pressure at that point ) in short i was spraying a small
mist of gas on the heads, cooling fins, and exhaust stacks.
ask me how lucky i feel.
changed to black fuel line i bought at napa with gear
clamps... no more staining.
boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | New Gift Selection Added - List Fund Raiser! [Please Read] |
Dear Listers,
I've just added a great new last minute Gift Selection to this year's List
Fund Raiser line up! I have a very limited number of sets of a wonderful
collection of Aircraft Technical books by Jeppesen entitled "The A&P
Technical Series Book Set". This is a great opportunity to make a generous
Contribution to support the Lists and walk away with a great set of
reference manuals at the same time.
This set of books normally retails for over $117 PLUS shipping, but you can
pick up your set AND make this year's List Contribution for a cool C-note -
that's a $100, by the way! :-) I'm thinking "Great Christmas Gift"...
There's more information on the books and making your Contribution at the
List Contribution web site:
Email List Contribution Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution
We're coming close to the official end of this year's List Fund Raiser and
if you haven't yet made your Contribution, there's still time get your name
on that List of Contributors! The percentage of contributors is kind of
low this year but I'm hoping many of you are just holding out until the
last minute!
I want to thank each and everyone of you that has already made a donation
to support the continued operation and upgrade of these List Services. As
I've mentioned in the past, running these Lists is a labor of love for me
and the hours upon hours of code development, system maintenance, and
upgrades are MY Contribution to support this great resource for Builders
and Flyer's alike. Won't your take a minute and make YOUR Contribution today?
I want to thank you for your support both during the Fund Raiser but also
throughout the year in the form of kind words and moral support. A nice
comment from a List member about how much the lists have helped them is
always a sure way to brighten my day!
Thank you to all!
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Steuber" <esteuber(at)rochester.rr.com> |
Gang,
I know this has been said before but the best thing I have found is also
the cheapest ( key word for most of us ). The old .041 safety wire with 2 loops
and twisted "moderatly " has always given me the best and lightest way to
secure these little hoses , either fuel or air suction lines for the fuel pump...no
leaks and secure...I can feel the heat from the flames already...actually
the warmth would be welcome .....here in Western NY......................BRRRRRRRR
ED
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Pike <rwpike(at)preferred.com> |
I totally agree, and was just thinking of putting a picture of such an
arrangement on my web page.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>Gang,
> I know this has been said before but the best thing I have found is
>also the cheapest ( key word for most of us ). The old .041 safety wire with
>2 loops and twisted "moderatly " has always given me the best and lightest
>way to secure these little hoses , either fuel or air suction lines for the
>fuel pump...no leaks and secure...I can feel the heat from the flames
>already...actually the warmth would be welcome .....here in Western
>NY......................BRRRRRRRR ED
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | b young <byoung(at)brigham.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 11/27/02 |
The chap I rent hangar space from has a pair of skis for
sale that are from
a Super Cub. He's asking $900 for them. They do appear to be
in good
condition, however. Does this sound like a reasonable price?
=====================
900 for cub skies seems like an ok price..... i supose that
it might depend on which cub they are for... a j3 or super
cub j3 may be fine but supercub skies may be a bit heavy
someone mentioned that hinge pins were wearing out
fast..... they will last longer if you put a drop of
triflow or good grade of oil on the pins.... too much oil
makes a mess but a small amount seems to help.
boyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
> someone mentioned that hinge pins were wearing out
> fast.....
> boyd
Boyd/Gents:
Happy Thanksgiving everybody! I am headed for the
big city of Wetumpka, Alabama, 15 miles down the
road, to eat a turkey with my gal friend and her
family.
Wanted to add my two cents forth on hinge pins.
Early on in the game of ultralighting, I changed
out my hinge pins quite frequently. Had something
to do with preventing "flutter" or something like
that. Everything had to be perfect, ya know.
Well, if you all think about this a minute, you
will probably wonder why you are wearing out these
stainless steel hinge pins inside aluminum hinge
loops???? I didn't back then, but I do now. I
don't think you can wear out the hinge pins. Mine
have been in elevator and ailerons for hundreds of
hours. My right wing has original hinges and
pins. Time: 1,700+ hours. They were still
serviceable last time I flew. :-)
Sometimes I think we change out a lot of stuff
that is perfectly good. But if it makes us feel
good..............do it!!!
Take care,
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "dama" <dama(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Builder/Pilot Database |
If you are new around here, check out the Kolb database in the site below.
If you would like to be added just give me an email. Send those updates
also. Passing another 100 hour mark is a good excuse, or perhaps some new
equipment.
Kip
Firestar II
Atlanta
http://www.springeraviation.net/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SR3SA2L1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Price for skis |
Ken ( or anyone else),
I have a set of blueprints that I got from the old KOLB newsletter that shows
you how to build skies that don't require you to remove the wheels. It
doesn't look too hard or expensive. Let me know if you want a copy or I can
put a copy into the archieve.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SR3SA2L1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Firefly flutter |
Hi Blane,
You may want to put together a flight simulator program and use the Kolb
numbers for the flight envelope. A while back I asked the List if anyone had
done this and several had. I was sent one from a list member but could not
get it to run (probably my old and slow W95/200mhz system). At least then
you will be able to keep your skills up to a degree. If I get one of these
programs I will send you a copy (I am at the point that I need one too).
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SGreenpg(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
In a message dated 11/28/2002 10:39:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, bbrocious(at)hotmail.com
writes:
> What have other Kolbers done when it came time to weigh in?
> Thanx,
>
>
> N57KB, Mark III 98%
> Bob
Bob,
I have a friend who races round track and has a set scales for setting up his car.
These scales have 4 load cells that all tie into the computer and are very
accurate. Being able to weight all three points at one time really simplifies
things.
Steven Green
N58SG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Leonard S.Voelker" <lenvoelker(at)ccis.com> |
Don Gheradini,
Wow, you are learning fast. You pose good questions. Unfortunately the answers
are not quite so simple but here goes.
It is true that control surfaces do not always need to be 100% balanced to prevent
flutter. Mass balancing is done to locate the control surface's c.g. directly
on the hingeline in order to eliminate the inertial coupling effect of the
control surface with the primary to which it is attached (when the control surface
is rotating and the primary surface is flapping). Now control surfaces are
not perfectly rigid structures and flex in both bending and torsion. Thus to
perfectly mass balance a control surface requires distributed balance weights
all along its hingeline to offset the aileron's sectional c.g.'s. This is seldom
possible with most structural arrangements. Putting all of the balance weight
on the outboard end overbalances the outboard portion of the control surface
and underbalances the inboard portion. In the case of the Kolb Mark III's
ailerons this has been proven by flight test to be good enough. When John Hauck
put all of the balance weight at the inboard end it didn't work. There was little
dynamic motion there while the effectively unbalanced outboard part of the
aileron and wing were fluttering like crazy.
I suppose that you could put just a little balance weight on the outboard end and
then go flight test it, noting the new flutter speed. If it was not satisfactory,
increase the balance weight or its moment arm and go flight test it again.
Eventually you will find just how much weight that you will need to raise
the aileron flutter speed to some value just beyond that at which you normally
fly. However, such an approach is time consuming and very dangerous. It is certainly
not recommended.
Theoretically, adding just enough counterweight to compensate for the added paint
could return the aircraft to its prior status. However, the weight of the paint
is distributed. Theoretically, you would need distributed counterweights,
too. Even then all conditions would not be exactly the same as before. The ailerons
would be heavier which would effectively make the wing heavier, too, at
its trailing edge. Partial counter weight all concentrated at the outboard end
would likely raise the flutter speed but how would you know how much that partial
weight should be? Using static balance as a guide provides a way to determine
a finite amount of counter weight that usually works.
As I have indicated before, perhaps not clearly enough, I believe that the rather
unique aileron and flap hinge arrangement on Kolbs has been very beneficial
for containing flutter amplitudes and not allowing the flutter to become explosive.
Without this containment we would probably have had pieces of broken Kolb
airplanes and dead bodies lying around all over the place.
The "logic" that I have provided is really a SWAG since in truth very little is
actually known about non-linear effects on flutter speeds. Linear flutter analyses
are hard enough to do accurately. Non-linear flutter analyses are so difficult
that only a relatively few have ever been attempted. Local stiffness increases
with oscillation amplitude have been found to sometimes limit flutter
amplitudes. Local stiffness decreases on the other hand have sometimes led to
especially explosive flutter. The whole issue is so very configuration dependent,
however, that broad generalities are even less appropriate than for flutter
of linear structures.
Physically stiffening the wing's trailing edge spar may not be of much benefit
and could do some harm. The added mass resulting from stiffening the spar with
more structure will move the wing's sectional c.g.'s farther aft which could
lead to lower wing bending-torsion flutter speeds. One must be careful, when fixing
one flutter problem, not to create another one. There are many variables
which affect aircraft flutter speeds. I've only touched on a few of those which
I have guessed to be the most significant regarding aileron flutter of Kolbs.
I hope that these comments continue to spur the List's interest and further understanding
of flutter, an admittedly complicated but fascinating topic which I
feel is equally important with static loads and strength for assuring structural
integrity.
Len Voelker
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
> I hope that these comments continue to spur the List's interest and further understanding
of flutter, an admittedly complicated but fascinating topic which
I feel is equally important with static loads and strength for assuring structural
integrity.
>
> Len Voelker
Len/Gents:
Thanks for all that professional information.
Flutter is a very interesting subject.
In the case of Kolb aircraft, the solution to the
aileron flutter problem was solved when Kolb
Aircraft designed and fabricated the aileron
counterbalance weights for the Firestar, Summer
1993.
I have thoroughly tested the aileron
counterbalance weights on my Mark III (designed
and built for Firestar because that's all they had
come up with at that time) for nearly 1,500 hours
in many different speed, turbulence, and
configuartion modes. No hint of aileron flutter.
In addition, I have not heard of any flutter
problem with any Kolb model aircraft after
installation of aileron counterbalance weights.
Sounds to me like we may have that problem
solved. However, the counterbalance weights must
be installed in order to perform their assigned
task. :-)
Fluttering off into the sunset,
john h
hauck's holler, alabama
PS: Hope you all had as good a Thanksgiving Day
as I and mine have had.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart(at)ldd.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Piano Hinges |
>
>Well, if you all think about this a minute, you
>will probably wonder why you are wearing out these
>stainless steel hinge pins inside aluminum hinge
>loops???? I didn't back then, but I do now. I
>don't think you can wear out the hinge pins. Mine
>have been in elevator and ailerons for hundreds of
>hours. My right wing has original hinges and
>pins. Time: 1,700+ hours. They were still
>serviceable last time I flew. :-)
>
John,
I commend you on your ability to fly your plane for 1700+ hours and your aileron
pins are still serviceable.
But speaking as the owner of a FireFly, I recommend FireFly owners check aileron
hinges regularly. The combination of a Rotax 447 vibration, propeller blades
passing close to the aileron training edge, the standard clearance between the
aileron horn bolt and the hole provided in the steel inner rib, and play in
the aileron push rod clevis and the push rod bearing pins set up a unique condition
that is very hard on the inboard piano hinge.
Reducing all clearances can reduce the amount of movement that will be present
in the inner piano hinge, and this will reduce the wear to the hinge pin. But
if one is to fly with a propeller this close to the trailing edge, there is no
way to remove all the vibration and pulsating torque loads that the inner aileron
hinge is going to experience. Lubrication can be of some help, but minimizing
all movement or stiffening is the best one can do other than checking the
hinges for wear. All it takes is a gentle shake of the aileron as you walk
by the back of the wing on preflight. If you find a worn pin, you will know
it.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart(at)ldd.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dallas Shepherd" <cen23954(at)centurytel.net> |
At 3 PM today I crashed my Kolb on take off. I suspect=0D
carburetor ice. I had just refueled the two 5 gallon tanks=0D
from my 30 gallon carrier which I had just filled from the=0D
station two days ago. Temp, 50 degrees and sunny. I was=0D
about 100 feet in the air when i saw my rpm's decreasing from 3200 to 2600
and the engine quit. I was still climbing and the stall came up fast and
just as I reached for my chute handle we hit the trees and came straight
down through them. Limbs slowed the fall but chewed up =0D
wings and we hit the ground hard in an over center position. The lexan didn
t break, but I smashed my face into it as the aluminum windshield frame
collapsed on my side. The cage deformed, but held. Had my 12 year old
grandson with me and he got his harness unbuckled and got out his side. I
was hanging not quite upside down with my face against the lexan and had
trouble getting unbuckled with all my weight hanging against the belt. I
finally got it and got out the passenger side. Gas was coming in from the
vent holes of the tanks and I couldn't find the master switch. It had
broken off the end of the=0D
dash which had come completely loose. I located it and turned the switch
off. No fire. From the engine back it looks all right. Will know more
after my old body heals a bit and I can pull it out of the woods. One of
the wings is caught between two trees so the tail is up in the air over
center.=0D
This is a rural area, but within minutes of the crash I had dozens of
people out in that woods, plus the sheriff and the state patrol, fire truck,
ambulance, first aid people, all my neighbors, my kids who were visiting,
and some people didn't know. Had to talk to two FAA people and they told me
finally that they would not be coming to investigate and I could move the
plane. One of the 911 people said her birthday was this coming saturday, I
said, so was mind. I'll be 70 how old are you. A good looking gal of 36 she
admitted.=0D
So what to do next after salvage. I only had liability insurance on it.
The engine did not sputter at all, just lost the rpm's and quit. I'll haul
it out of there and see=0D
what's left.=0D
Dallas Shepherd=0D
Norfork, Arkansas=0D
Kolb Mark 3/ 2200 jabiru
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Pike <rwpike(at)preferred.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Price for skis |
Send me a copy, I'll put it on my web page with some other old archived stuff.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>Ken ( or anyone else),
>
>I have a set of blueprints that I got from the old KOLB newsletter that shows
>you how to build skies that don't require you to remove the wheels. It
>doesn't look too hard or expensive. Let me know if you want a copy or I can
>put a copy into the archieve.
>
>Steve
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "H MITCHELL" <mitchmnd(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piano Hinges |
If you are concerned about aileron hinge wear you might want to oil them at least
once a year. I soak a small patch of cloth attached to a piece of wire and
pass it over each hinge until some of the oil soaks between the loops of each
hinge. This should make them operate more smoothly and last longer.
If the pins on your plane are held in place by safety wire or other neat arrangement
slip them out and grease them for more permanent lubrication.
It is also a good idea to make absolutely sure the hinge rivets are still tight
if you think you have had a flutter episode.
Duane the plane, Tallahassee, FL, FireFly/Mk3912
----- Original Message -----
From: John Hauck
Subject: Kolb-List: Piano Hinges
> someone mentioned that hinge pins were wearing out
> fast.....
> boyd
Boyd/Gents:
Happy Thanksgiving everybody! I am headed for the
big city of Wetumpka, Alabama, 15 miles down the
road, to eat a turkey with my gal friend and her
family.
Wanted to add my two cents forth on hinge pins.
Early on in the game of ultralighting, I changed
out my hinge pins quite frequently. Had something
to do with preventing "flutter" or something like
that. Everything had to be perfect, ya know.
Well, if you all think about this a minute, you
will probably wonder why you are wearing out these
stainless steel hinge pins inside aluminum hinge
loops???? I didn't back then, but I do now. I
don't think you can wear out the hinge pins. Mine
have been in elevator and ailerons for hundreds of
hours. My right wing has original hinges and
pins. Time: 1,700+ hours. They were still
serviceable last time I flew. :-)
Sometimes I think we change out a lot of stuff
that is perfectly good. But if it makes us feel
good..............do it!!!
Take care,
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piano Hinges |
> If you find a worn pin, you will know it.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
Jack/Gents:
Question: Why is the stainless steel hinge pin
wearing faster than the aluminum loops of the
piano hinge? or are they? If the loops are worn
also, what good does it do to install new pins?
A fix for the Fire Fly prop drumming problem
caused by prop to aileron clearance might be a
prop extension.
I ran a 2" extention for the majority of the life
of the Mark III. Went to a 4" extention and I
believe I am getting better performance and
probably not beating up the area around the rear
of the fuselage and prop so much.
Can assume you don't want to go that route because
of added weight, increased performance will put
you over the Part 103 limits for a legal
untralight, but some other Fire Fly owners might
want to try the extention.
Take care,
john h
PS: A great documentary on National Geographic
Explorer about Perigrin Falcons. Super air to air
photography. The fastest bird in existence.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One less Kolb |
> At 3 PM today I crashed my Kolb on take off.
> Dallas Shepherd=0D
Dallas/Gents:
Thank God you and your Grandson are OK.
I am sorry you lost your airplane, but it can be
replaced.
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: One less Kolb |
| From: | ul15rhb(at)juno.com |
Dallas, I'm so sorry to hear about your crash and I feel sick inside when
I hear of things like this. I'm glad to hear that you and your grandson
are ok. I hope your face didn't get too cut up. I'm very surprised you
wrote this report today. If this were me, I would be so pissed off that I
could not write for a few days. You did a remarkable job on reporting
this accident!
If its any conciliation to you on this Thanksgiving Day, your grandson
and you are alive and will be able to spent time together in the future.
Keep us posted on your situation guy .....
My Deepest Sympathy,
Ralph Burlingame
>
>
> At 3 PM today I crashed my Kolb on take off. I suspect=0D
> carburetor ice. I had just refueled the two 5 gallon tanks=0D
> from my 30 gallon carrier which I had just filled from the=0D
> station two days ago. Temp, 50 degrees and sunny. I was=0D
> about 100 feet in the air when i saw my rpm's decreasing from 3200
> to 2600
> and the engine quit. I was still climbing and the stall came up
> fast and
> just as I reached for my chute handle we hit the trees and came
> straight
> down through them. Limbs slowed the fall but chewed up =0D
> wings and we hit the ground hard in an over center position. The
> lexan didn
> t break, but I smashed my face into it as the aluminum windshield
> frame
> collapsed on my side. The cage deformed, but held. Had my 12 year
> old
> grandson with me and he got his harness unbuckled and got out his
> side. I
> was hanging not quite upside down with my face against the lexan and
> had
> trouble getting unbuckled with all my weight hanging against the
> belt. I
> finally got it and got out the passenger side. Gas was coming in
> from the
> vent holes of the tanks and I couldn't find the master switch. It
> had
> broken off the end of the=0D
> dash which had come completely loose. I located it and turned the
> switch
> off. No fire. From the engine back it looks all right. Will know
> more
> after my old body heals a bit and I can pull it out of the woods.
> One of
> the wings is caught between two trees so the tail is up in the air
> over
> center.=0D
> This is a rural area, but within minutes of the crash I had
> dozens of
> people out in that woods, plus the sheriff and the state patrol,
> fire truck,
> ambulance, first aid people, all my neighbors, my kids who were
> visiting,
> and some people didn't know. Had to talk to two FAA people and they
> told me
> finally that they would not be coming to investigate and I could
> move the
> plane. One of the 911 people said her birthday was this coming
> saturday, I
> said, so was mind. I'll be 70 how old are you. A good looking gal
> of 36 she
> admitted.=0D
> So what to do next after salvage. I only had liability
> insurance on it.
> The engine did not sputter at all, just lost the rpm's and quit.
> I'll haul
> it out of there and see=0D
> what's left.=0D
> Dallas Shepherd=0D
> Norfork, Arkansas=0D
> Kolb Mark 3/ 2200 jabiru
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Piano Hinges |
John I am glad you mentioned this, I also have a heard time understanding
why a pin SS Hinge would wear in a aluminum hinge. The loop should be what
is wearing,,not the pin. thereby makin pin replacement fruitless...but..If
Jackson sees a tight joint after replacing the pin....then something strange
here is happening. In the engineering world..there are so many situations
where 1 faster wearing material is intentionally placed next to another
slower wearing material to make sure all the wear happens on the part
easiest to replace.
Which makes me wonder about these hinges...dosent seem to apply
here...but..maybe??
BTW..Does anyone have any expierience with the extruded or cast body piano
hinges...instead of the formed ones like Kolb supplies. I know they are
several times more costly, but look alot better quality. I am considering
these instead of the supplied hinges.
Don Gherardini
FireFly 098
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piano Hinges |
> BTW..Does anyone have any expierience with the extruded or cast body piano
> hinges...instead of the formed ones like Kolb supplies. I know they are
> several times more costly, but look alot better quality. I am considering
> these instead of the supplied hinges.
>
> Don Gherardini
Don/Gang:
I haven't priced extruded hinges in years. I have
never used them. I get more than satisfactory
service out of the hinges shipped with the kits.
If it works, it works for me.
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Duncan McBride <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: One less Kolb |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dallas Shepherd" <cen23954(at)centurytel.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: One less Kolb
>
> At 3 PM today I crashed my Kolb on take off
So glad to hear you're ok. Like I've been told before, aluminum is cheap.
May your grandson tell the story for many years to come of the only airplane
crash he ever experienced. You too, for that matter.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart(at)ldd.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Piano Hinges |
John & Don,
>Question: Why is the stainless steel hinge pin
>wearing faster than the aluminum loops of the
>piano hinge? or are they? If the loops are worn
>also, what good does it do to install new pins?
The reason the stainless pins wear and the hinges do not is because the hinges
are made of aluminum. Aluminum exposed to oxygen forms a thin aluminum oxide
coating on its surface. Aluminum oxide is a very hard and a good abrasive, so
as the hinges vibrate in rotation, the aluminum oxide surface slowly sands away
the stainless steel pin with very little if any wear to the aluminum.
>
>A fix for the Fire Fly prop drumming problem
>caused by prop to aileron clearance might be a
>prop extension.
>
>Can assume you don't want to go that route because
>of added weight, increased performance will put
>you over the Part 103 limits for a legal
>untralight, but some other Fire Fly owners might
>want to try the extention.
I run a propeller extension and the FireFly is legal.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart(at)ldd.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | possums <possums(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piano Hinges |
>
>John & Don,
>
> >Question: Why is the stainless steel hinge pin
> >wearing faster than the aluminum loops of the
> >piano hinge? or are they? If the loops are worn
> >also, what good does it do to install new pins?
>
>The reason the stainless pins wear and the hinges do not is because the
>hinges are made of aluminum. Aluminum exposed to oxygen forms a thin
>aluminum oxide coating on its surface. Aluminum oxide is a very hard and
>a good abrasive, so as the hinges vibrate in rotation, the aluminum oxide
>surface slowly sands away the stainless steel pin with very little if any
>wear to the aluminum.
I've never seen that - on two planes - in over 1,000 hours.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | possums <possums(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piano Hinges |
I should have mentioned that I "oil" my hinges. But I assumed that everybody
oiled their hinges with silicon or WD-40 or something.
Sorry - don't mean to start a flame war.
> Aluminum oxide is a very hard and
> >a good abrasive, so as the hinges vibrate in rotation, the aluminum oxide
> >surface slowly sands away the stainless steel pin with very little if any
> >wear to the aluminum.
>
>I've never seen that - on two planes - in over 1,000 hours.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bourne" <biglar(at)gogittum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piano Hinges |
I see & understand both points of view, but I'm still stuck on the original
statement, and John, I think you have a point................"why you are
wearing out these stainless steel hinge pins inside aluminum hinge loops ??"
In my little pea brain, that started a short circuit...................Yah,
those pins are STEEL ! ! ! The hinge is ALUMINUM ! ! ! How the hell can
the PINS wear out ?? In any right and reasonable scenario - to my way of
thinking - the steel pins should wear out the aluminum
hinges...........right ?? They're harder ! ! ! So how come the pins are
wearing out ?? Add a little dust/grit, and it would be worse. Seems to me
like the holes in the hinge should be getting bigger, and replacing the pin
wouldn't make much - or any - difference. Did you guys check the
difference in looseness between the "before" & "after" pin change ?????
I'm not real interested in a flame war here, but I'm very curious as to just
WHAT is wearing, and WHY...................'cause my time is coming soon.
Go ahead and have at 'er, but take a quick think about it first.
Curious Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack & Louise Hart" <jbhart(at)ldd.net>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Piano Hinges
>
> >
> >Well, if you all think about this a minute, you
> >will probably wonder why you are wearing out these
> >stainless steel hinge pins inside aluminum hinge
> >loops???? I didn't back then, but I do now. I
> >don't think you can wear out the hinge pins. Mine
> >have been in elevator and ailerons for hundreds of
> >hours. My right wing has original hinges and
> >pins. Time: 1,700+ hours. They were still
> >serviceable last time I flew. :-)
> >
> John,
>
> I commend you on your ability to fly your plane for 1700+ hours and your
aileron pins are still serviceable.
>
> But speaking as the owner of a FireFly, I recommend FireFly owners check
aileron hinges regularly. The combination of a Rotax 447 vibration,
propeller blades passing close to the aileron training edge, the standard
clearance between the aileron horn bolt and the hole provided in the steel
inner rib, and play in the aileron push rod clevis and the push rod bearing
pins set up a unique condition that is very hard on the inboard piano hinge.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bourne" <biglar(at)gogittum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Piano Hinges |
Boy, that was fast ! ! ! While I was typing up my reply to the "piano
hinges" message, Dallas wrote in about his accident, and there were replies
flying everywhere. Dallas, I'm sure sorry to hear about your
crash, but very relieved to hear you're OK. That ol' head bone must've got
perty hard over the years, eh ?? You & your grandson have a special reason
now to REALLY celebrate Thanksgiving. I hope you're not too stiff & sore in
the morning. Big Lar.
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Kolb Mk III - Vamoose
www.gogittum.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "possums" <possums(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Piano Hinges
>
>
> I should have mentioned that I "oil" my hinges. But I assumed that
everybody
> oiled their hinges with silicon or WD-40 or something.
>
> Sorry - don't mean to start a flame war.
>
> > Aluminum oxide is a very hard and
> > >a good abrasive, so as the hinges vibrate in rotation, the aluminum
oxide
> > >surface slowly sands away the stainless steel pin with very little if
any
> > >wear to the aluminum.
> >
> >I've never seen that - on two planes - in over 1,000 hours.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jerb <ulflyer(at)airmail.net> |
| Subject: | Re: One less Kolb |
Dallas,
Sorry to hear of your misfortune, but thankfully you and your grandson were
able to walk away. I noticed that your signature at the end of your post
indicates a Jabiru engine. It that correct. By chance did you catch what
the temp and dew point were at that time of day. Don't bother responding
until you have taken some time to recover from your event.
Check over the throttle and mixture connections. Little things slip by in
the amateur built aircraft sometimes. If the throttle cable becomes
disconnected or breaks, is your carb set up to advance the throttle to full
power. Also what happens to mixture. Fuel filter clogged, vent open? Any
alcohol in the fuel, it collects water?
>
>At 3 PM today I crashed my Kolb on take off. I suspect=0D
>carburetor ice. I had just refueled the two 5 gallon tanks=0D
>from my 30 gallon carrier which I had just filled from the=0D
>station two days ago. Temp, 50 degrees and sunny. I was=0D
>about 100 feet in the air when i saw my rpm's decreasing from 3200 to 2600
>and the engine quit. I was still climbing and the stall came up fast and
>just as I reached for my chute handle we hit the trees and came straight
>down through them. Limbs slowed the fall but chewed up =0D
>wings and we hit the ground hard in an over center position. The lexan didn
>t break, but I smashed my face into it as the aluminum windshield frame
>collapsed on my side. The cage deformed, but held. Had my 12 year old
>grandson with me and he got his harness unbuckled and got out his side. I
>was hanging not quite upside down with my face against the lexan and had
>trouble getting unbuckled with all my weight hanging against the belt. I
>finally got it and got out the passenger side. Gas was coming in from the
>vent holes of the tanks and I couldn't find the master switch. It had
>broken off the end of the=0D
>dash which had come completely loose. I located it and turned the switch
>off. No fire. From the engine back it looks all right. Will know more
>after my old body heals a bit and I can pull it out of the woods. One of
>the wings is caught between two trees so the tail is up in the air over
>center.=0D
> This is a rural area, but within minutes of the crash I had dozens of
>people out in that woods, plus the sheriff and the state patrol, fire truck,
>ambulance, first aid people, all my neighbors, my kids who were visiting,
>and some people didn't know. Had to talk to two FAA people and they told me
>finally that they would not be coming to investigate and I could move the
>plane. One of the 911 people said her birthday was this coming saturday, I
>said, so was mind. I'll be 70 how old are you. A good looking gal of 36 she
>admitted.=0D
> So what to do next after salvage. I only had liability insurance on it.
> The engine did not sputter at all, just lost the rpm's and quit. I'll haul
>it out of there and see=0D
>what's left.=0D
>Dallas Shepherd=0D
>Norfork, Arkansas=0D
>Kolb Mark 3/ 2200 jabiru
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>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jerb <ulflyer(at)airmail.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Piano Hinges |
How close is your prop and the trailing edge of the flaperons on your FireFly?
Are you using a hub extension between the engine flange and the prop as
Kolb (Dennis) recommends?
It the distance that much different than that of the FireStars?
jerb
>
> >
> >Well, if you all think about this a minute, you
> >will probably wonder why you are wearing out these
> >stainless steel hinge pins inside aluminum hinge
> >loops???? I didn't back then, but I do now. I
> >don't think you can wear out the hinge pins. Mine
> >have been in elevator and ailerons for hundreds of
> >hours. My right wing has original hinges and
> >pins. Time: 1,700+ hours. They were still
> >serviceable last time I flew. :-)
> >
>John,
>
>I commend you on your ability to fly your plane for 1700+ hours and your
>aileron pins are still serviceable.
>
>But speaking as the owner of a FireFly, I recommend FireFly owners check
>aileron hinges regularly. The combination of a Rotax 447 vibration,
>propeller blades passing close to the aileron training edge, the standard
>clearance between the aileron horn bolt and the hole provided in the steel
>inner rib, and play in the aileron push rod clevis and the push rod
>bearing pins set up a unique condition that is very hard on the inboard
>piano hinge.
>
>Reducing all clearances can reduce the amount of movement that will be
>present in the inner piano hinge, and this will reduce the wear to the
>hinge pin. But if one is to fly with a propeller this close to the
>trailing edge, there is no way to remove all the vibration and pulsating
>torque loads that the inner aileron hinge is going to
>experience. Lubrication can be of some help, but minimizing all movement
>or stiffening is the best one can do other than checking the hinges for
>wear. All it takes is a gentle shake of the aileron as you walk by the
>back of the wing on preflight. If you find a worn pin, you will know it.
>
>Jack B. Hart FF004
>Jackson, MO
>
>
>Jack & Louise Hart
>jbhart(at)ldd.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Guy Swenson" <guys(at)rrt.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Price for skis |
Steve,
I am interested in a copy of the ski plans.
Guy S.
MKIII Xtra
N3053B
----- Original Message -----
From: <SR3SA2L1(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Price for skis
>
> Ken ( or anyone else),
>
> I have a set of blueprints that I got from the old KOLB newsletter that
shows
> you how to build skies that don't require you to remove the wheels. It
> doesn't look too hard or expensive. Let me know if you want a copy or I
can
> put a copy into the archieve.
>
> Steve
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | [PLEASE READ!] "What is my Contribution used for?" |
Dear Listers,
Some have asked, "What is my Contribution used for?", and this is a valid
question. Here are just a few examples of what your direct List support
enables. It provides for the expensive, business-class, high-speed
Internet connection used on the List, insuring maximum performance and
minimal contention when accessing List services. It pays for the regular
system hardware and software upgrades enabling the highest performance
possible for services such as the Archive Search Engine and List
Browser. It pays for 14+ years worth of online archive data available for
instant random access. And, it offsets the many hours spent writing,
developing, and maintaining the custom applications that power this List
Service such as the List Browse, Search Engine, and Photoshare.
But most importantly, your List Contribution enables a forum where you and
your peers can communicate freely in an environment that is free from
moderation, censorship, advertising, commercialism, SPAM, and computer
viruses. How many places on the Internet can you make all those statements
about these days? I will venture to say - next to none...
It is YOUR CONTRIBUTION that directly enables these many desirable aspects
of this most valuable List service. Please support it today with your List
Contribution. Its the best investment you can make in your Sport - BAR NONE!
Email List Contribution Web Site:
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Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cooley" <johnc(at)datasync.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One less Kolb |
Dallas,
I'm really glad to hear you and your grandson were able to walk away from
your crash. You really have a lot to be thankful for considering what could
have been. It's a terrible thing to loose a plane but as John H. said it can
be replaced, you or your grandson can't be. Hope you have a speedy recovery.
John Cooley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack & Louise Hart <jbhart(at)ldd.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Piano Hinges |
>
>How close is your prop and the trailing edge of the flaperons on your FireFly?
>
>Are you using a hub extension between the engine flange and the prop as
>Kolb (Dennis) recommends?
>
>It the distance that much different than that of the FireStars?
>jerb
>
>
jerb,
I am using the propeller extension that Dennis sent to me. Before changing to the Victor 1+, the propeller clearance to the aileron tube was six inches without the engine running. With the Victor 1+ I sacrificed one inch to help keep the c.g. in a good region. This puts the propeller at the minimum clearance distance that IVO recommends. Using propeller clearance detectors (http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly83.html), I have discovered that the propeller tips come with in about an inch and a half of the aileron tubes at maximum rpm. If this same flexure was taking place with the 447, the blades would have been clearing by about two and a half inches in flight.
I do not know if there is a design propeller clearance difference between a FireStar
and FireFly.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jackson, MO
Jack & Louise Hart
jbhart(at)ldd.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Builder/Pilot Database |
Kip, I sure would like to know about the camera mount you are showing in the
photos on your webpage. Does it do well?, how about vibration? How is it
attached to the wing fold pin?
Richard Harris
MK3 N912RH
Lewisville, Arkansas
> If you are new around here, check out the Kolb database in the site below.
> If you would like to be added just give me an email. Send those updates
also. Passing another 100 hour mark is a good excuse, or perhaps some new
equipment.
> Kip
> Firestar II
> Atlanta
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "dama" <dama(at)mindspring.com> |
Hi Richard, the mount is just left over aluminium except for the main
vertical tube. All you need is a base sturdy enough to make use of the
tripod bolt. Just take a micrometer and measure the outside diameter of your
wing fold bracket. Go to the Aircraft Spruce catalog and find some tubing
with an inner diameter as close as possible. Slip it on and use the same pin
that you would use to hold the wing on the tail bracket. Safety wire the pin
as well as the camera to the mount. Initially I had no vibration but there
has been some wear and turbulence sets up a vibration that eventually dampen
out in a few seconds. The smoother that day, the better the video. I'm sure
that it can be shimmed somehow. Erich Weaver (Santa Barbara, CA) tried a
version a while back and he may have some additional input here.
Kip
Firestar II
http://www.springeraviation.net/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Harris" <rharris@magnolia-net.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Builder/Pilot Database
<rharris@magnolia-net.com>
>
> Kip, I sure would like to know about the camera mount you are showing in
the
> photos on your webpage. Does it do well?, how about vibration? How is it
> attached to the wing fold pin?
>
>
> Richard Harris
> MK3 N912RH
> Lewisville, Arkansas
>
> > If you are new around here, check out the Kolb database in the site
below.
> > If you would like to be added just give me an email. Send those updates
> also. Passing another 100 hour mark is a good excuse, or perhaps some new
> equipment.
>
>
> > Kip
> > Firestar II
> > Atlanta
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hauck <jhauck(at)sw.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One less Kolb |
> At 3 PM today I crashed my Kolb on take off. I suspect=0D
> carburetor ice.
Dallas Shepard
Good Morning Dallas/Gang:
Got up this morning thinking about your engine
problem and your accident. I think I can
empathize with you this morning. I have also had
to get up the day after a catastrophic accident.
Didn't want to, but knew I had to get up and get
things going again.
I know you are probably pretty sore this morning,
but I bet the Grand Son is probably none the less
for wear. Again, I am glad "someone" was watching
over you all, and you were not in a lesser built
aircraft.
I checked weather at 1500, 28 Nov 02, in Mountain
Home:
14:53 51.98 F / 11.1 C 24.98 F / -3.9 C 35%
The above is local time, temp, dew point, and
humidity. Got a real wide temp/dew point spread,
and the humidity is only 35%. Based on what
little bit of weather I know, doesn't look like
there was much possibility for carb ice. Coupled
with the the above, you were most likely at WOT
when the engine failure occurred. Usually don't
have much problem with carb ice in those
conditions.
Then I got to thinking about the carb problem you
had early on in your Mark III's career. IIRC you
lost a carb on takeoff, that is the carb fell out
of the carb socket. Do you suppose you had a
repeat performance of this problem?
Dallas' accident demonstrates how quickly things
happen at aproximately 100 feet on takeoff and the
engine quits. There is no time to ponder what is
going to happen next because it already has.
A question on seat belts/shoulder harnesses: Were
you all using the single strap Kolb across the lap
and over one shoulder type system? If not, what
kind were you using?
You said you smashed your face into the aluminum
windshield bracing. Did the two braces stay
together or did they break?
You mentioned fuel leaking from the fuel tank
vents. Were they vented out the fuel caps? Or
were they vented overboard out the bottom of the
aircraft? If vented overboard out the bottom,
usually they won't leak in the inverted position.
You don't have to answer any of my questions. I
was sitting here pondering your accident. We can
learn a lot from it.
Again, I am thankful you all were OK. You have a
lot to be thankful for Thanksgiving Day 2002.
Take care,
john h
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Sudlow" <sudlow77(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: One less Kolb |
Dallas,
I'm really sorry to hear about your crash, but glad you are ok.
That must have been one heck of a ride. I had an engine lose power at about
a 100 during training - that was hair raising ...
Let us know when you have any further info about contaminants, engine
etc...
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dallas Shepherd" <cen23954(at)centurytel.net>
Subject: Kolb-List: One less Kolb
>
> At 3 PM today I crashed my Kolb on take off. I suspect=0D
> carburetor ice. I had just refueled the two 5 gallon tanks=0D
> from my 30 gallon carrier which I had just filled from the=0D
> station two days ago. Temp, 50 degrees and sunny. I was=0D
> about 100 feet in the air when i saw my rpm's decreasing from 3200 to 2600
> and the engine quit. I was still climbing and the stall came up fast and
> just as I reached for my chute handle we hit the trees and came straight
> down through them. Limbs slowed the fall but chewed up =0D
> wings and we hit the ground hard in an over center position. The lexan
didn
> t break, but I smashed my face into it as the aluminum windshield frame
> collapsed on my side. The cage deformed, but held. Had my 12 year old
> grandson with me and he got his harness unbuckled and got out his side. I
> was hanging not quite upside down with my face against the lexan and had
> trouble getting unbuckled with all my weight hanging against the belt. I
> finally got it and got out the passenger side. Gas was coming in from the
> vent holes of the tanks and I couldn't find the master switch. It had
> broken off the end of the=0D
> dash which had come completely loose. I located it and turned the switch
> off. No fire. From the engine back it looks all right. Will know more
> after my old body heals a bit and I can pull it out of the woods. One of
> the wings is caught between two trees so the tail is up in the air over
> center.=0D
> This is a rural area, but within minutes of the crash I had dozens of
> people out in that woods, plus the sheriff and the state patrol, fire
truck,
> ambulance, first aid people, all my neighbors, my kids who were visiting,
> and some people didn't know. Had to talk to two FAA people and they told
me
> finally that they would not be coming to investigate and I could move the
> plane. One of the 911 people said her birthday was this coming saturday,
I
> said, so was mind. I'll be 70 how old are you. A good looking gal of 36
she
> admitted.=0D
> So what to do next after salvage. I only had liability insurance on
it.
> The engine did not sputter at all, just lost the rpm's and quit. I'll
haul
> it out of there and see=0D
> what's left.=0D
> Dallas Shepherd=0D
> Norfork, Arkansas=0D
> Kolb Mark 3/ 2200 jabiru
>
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>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: One less Kolb |
In a message dated 11/28/02 9:38:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net writes:
>
> >
> >At 3 PM today I crashed my Kolb on take off
>
>
> So glad to hear you're ok. Like I've been told before, aluminum is cheap.
> May your grandson tell the story for many years to come of the only
> airplane
> crash he ever experienced. You too, for that matter.
>
>
>
Sorry to hear about your mishap, Dallas, but very happy to hear that your
Grandson and you will have an account together that will draw you even
closer in the future.... I have grands and I know how important that is...
George Randolph
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | fuel shutoff valve |
| From: | ul15rhb(at)juno.com |
Guys,
I don't know how many of you have installed a fuel shutoff valve on your
aircraft, but I decided not to have one. The reason is that I have heard
too many stories about pilots forgetting to turn the valve on before
takeoff. This story yesterday sounds typical of that situation, although
I'm not accusing Dallas Shepherd of this at all. I don't even know that
he has a fuel valve to switch.
Have any of you guys got into the air and realized your fuel valve was
off?
Curious .....
Ralph
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kirk Smith" <snuffy(at)usol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One less Kolb |
Dallas,
So sorry to hear of your accident , but so glad to hear your grandson
and you are ok. ............Kirk
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Piano Hinges |
In a message dated 11/28/02 10:21:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, jbhart(at)ldd.net
writes:
>
> The reason the stainless pins wear and the hinges do not is because the
> hinges are made of aluminum. Aluminum exposed to oxygen forms a thin
> aluminum oxide coating on its surface. Aluminum oxide is a very hard and a
> good abrasive, so as the hinges vibrate in rotation, the aluminum oxide
> surface slowly sands away the stainless steel pin with very little if any
> wear to the aluminum.
>
If this is the case ...why not add a dab of Penetrox to the hinges to inhibit
the formation of the Al oxide? Or as Mitch says, a little oil to minimize the
abraziveness?
George Randolph
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | woody <duesouth(at)govital.net> |
>
>
>
>John W. and others,
>I'm to the part where I need to do the weight and balance on my Mark III.
>Bathroom scales seem inconsistent and unreliable. What have other Kolbers
>done when it came time to weigh in?
>Thanx,
I did the weight and balance on my Kolb Flyer by hanging it from a tree. I
was not concerned about the weight just where the cg was. On my Twinstar
and MK111 I did use bathroom scales. I used my bodyweight to give me some
form of calibration and accuracy. I felt this was accurate enough for my
purposes.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Duncan McBride <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: fuel shutoff valve |
I have a fuel shutoff. I have the two five-gallon tanks stock from Kolb and
the shutoff is located after the fuel filter, about two feet upstream from
the electric fuel pump. The line from the pump to the mechanical pump is
another three or four feet. If I shut off the fuel, the engine will stop in
less than a minute. I couldn't start, taxi to the runway, and do a runup
without turning on the fuel, the engine would starve long before that. To
have an accident, I'd have to shut off the fuel just before takeoff. I like
having a fuel shutoff, because with my luck the throttle cable will break
about the time the magneto grounds come loose.....
----- Original Message -----
From: <ul15rhb(at)juno.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: fuel shutoff valve
>
> Guys,
>
> I don't know how many of you have installed a fuel shutoff valve on your
> aircraft, but I decided not to have one. The reason is that I have heard
> too many stories about pilots forgetting to turn the valve on before
> takeoff. This story yesterday sounds typical of that situation, although
> I'm not accusing Dallas Shepherd of this at all. I don't even know that
> he has a fuel valve to switch.
>
> Have any of you guys got into the air and realized your fuel valve was
> off?
>
> Curious .....
>
> Ralph
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 11/28/02 6:10:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
lenvoelker(at)ccis.com writes:
> I hope that these comments continue to spur the List's interest and further
> understanding of flutter, an admittedly complicated but fascinating topic
> which I feel is equally important with static loads and strength for
> assuring structural integrity.
>
> Len Voelker
>
>
>
Len, how did you get to be such a readable writer....and....are you old like
me, or young and just smart? Next time I won't beat around the bush so much.
;)
George Randolph
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dallas Shepherd" <cen23954(at)centurytel.net> |
Hi Guys: Thanks for the kind messages. Got up this morning and found that
I could still move so called my friends from the flying club that told me to
tell them when to move on getting it out of the woods. FAA gave me the okay
so about 6 of them came over and took the wings off, propped the tail into
the back of a pick up and rolled it back to the hanger. Problem, pilot
error and water. Being fresh gas and I just filled the two 5 gallon tanks,
i didn't drain the bottom line to check for water. Took the bowl off the
carburetor, found water in the bowl and water in the=0D
fuel filter. Pretty well explains the problem.=0D
One wing completely destroyed, the front of the steel cage for about 15
inches is bent up at a 90 degree angle and the nose cone in pieces. The
panel was completely broken off with 3 inches of the end of the panel where
the master switch was broken from it. Took me awhile to find it after the
crash to shut it off. I did not have a fuel shut off switch on the Kolb and
the gas came from the two vent holes in the top of the cap as the plane was
over center. The enclosure was completely smashed in on my side and against
my face with the lexan against the ground. The gap seal was folded back
against the chute container. We got out through a 15 inch hole on the
passenger side. I think I'm wider then that but I wasn't counting with the
gas dripping in. One side of the stabilizer smashed. The main boon going
back just has two dents in it about an eighth inch deep and the size of the
palm of your hand. The other wing lost some of its skin, but I didn't see
too much damage to it.=0D
Engine and prop look all right. Its a Warp Drive 58" witch I was going
to take off. I have a new Sensenich sitting there in the box I was going to
put on. Jabiru and Warp Drive said to remove the composite prop. Cracks
develop in the hub. The engine seems to be fine. When I feel better I'll
start taking things apart and see what I can salvage. I'm not as sore as I
thought I would be, and John I had the seat belt with one shoulder strap. =0D
Dallas Shepherd=0D
Norfork, Arkansas=0D
Kolb Mark 3/2200 Jabiru
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [ Larry Bourne ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
| From: | Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Larry Bourne
Subject: Filling a Compass
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/biglar@gogittum.com.11.29.2002/index.html
--------------------------------------------
o EMAIL LIST PHOTO SHARE
Share your files and photos with other List members simply by
emailing the files to:
pictures(at)matronics.com
Please view the typical Share above and include the Description Text
Fields as shown along with your submission of files and photos.
o Main Photo Share Index:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [ Larry Bourne ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
| From: | Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Larry Bourne
Subject: Non-Kolb Radial Engine
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/biglar@gogittum.com.2.11.29.2002/index.html
--------------------------------------------
o EMAIL LIST PHOTO SHARE
Share your files and photos with other List members simply by
emailing the files to:
pictures(at)matronics.com
Please view the typical Share above and include the Description Text
Fields as shown along with your submission of files and photos.
o Main Photo Share Index:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mid-State Sandblasting" <plane(at)rtmc.net> |
Hi Dale
I have a set of drawings to up date ultrastar landing gear to a firestar
type. Dennis Soulder designed it. it works great on the soobydoo
Randy still flying the soobydoo with a few goose bumps
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Sellers" <dsellers(at)sgtcollege.org>
Subject: Kolb-List: Ultra Star
>
> I have a question for those of you with Ultra Stars with the old style
> landing gears. I replaced the cross braces in mine with new stock. On
the
> ends where the braces mount to the axle tubes and to the upper gear attach
> bolt, I flattened the brace material completely and drilled my attach
holes
> through it. Is this an ok procedure or should I have reinforced the
> attachment in some way? I didn't have the old ones to go by.
>
> Dale Sellers
> Georgia Ultra Star
>
>
=
> _->
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mid-State Sandblasting" <plane(at)rtmc.net> |
Hi all
1. what's the difference between rotex injection oil, and the rotex regular
oil that you mix in to the gas. is one colored so that you know that when
it is mixed you can see the difference in the color of your gas. are they
interchangeable.
2. on a 503 if you have a oil injection pump on it should you take it off
and mix your oil with the gas for more reliability
3. should a person go 40 miles out of there way to buy 1.55 per gal Amoco
white gas, or just use 1.35 per gal 93 octane any noticeable difference
between them.
A friend of mine asked these questions and I did not know the best answers.
my ultrastar has a Subaru in it and I do not worry about any of these
things. all the info will be forwarded to my new flying buddy and I will
also get a educated.
Randy still flying the soobydoo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jerb <ulflyer(at)airmail.net> |
| Subject: | Re: [ Larry Bourne ] : New Email List Photo Share |
Available!
Gee Lar,
Was it one of those Chinese compasses. They probably fill them with water
to make them cheaper - water freezes at 50 in California so I've been told
by people that live there.
jerb
>
>
>
>A new Email List Photo Share is available:
>
> Poster: Larry Bourne
>
>
> Subject: Filling a Compass
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/biglar@gogittum.com.11.29.2002/index.html
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> o EMAIL LIST PHOTO SHARE
>
> Share your files and photos with other List members simply by
> emailing the files to:
>
> pictures(at)matronics.com
>
> Please view the typical Share above and include the Description Text
> Fields as shown along with your submission of files and photos.
>
> o Main Photo Share Index:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: [ Larry Bourne ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
Hey Larry, thats a R-4360 Pratt'n Whitney pard!...one fine engine too!
Turbo-supercharged 3500 horses! Some of the planes to use them were the
B-29, the B-36, and various cargo planes, in fact I would just about bet
that one you saw came off a Fairchild by the looks of that air scoop. Maybe
a C-117
There was a very rare version of the F4U Corsair with that baby too, they
called it a Super Corsair. the boys down at Reno like em for the unlimiteds
too!
Don
heres a link.....
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/engines/eng34a.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
Dear Listers,
This is the last "official" day of the List Fund Raiser. Based on previous
year's percentages of Lister's making a Contribution, this year we are
nearly 40% behind the normal... And I thought all those great gifts would
eke the percentage up past the average a little. Oh well. Maybe people
just don't really mind the flashing banner ads for Viagra, and popups for
X10 minicams...
There's still plenty of time to get your name of the List of
Contributors. I'll probably publish the LOC on Monday night after I
process the checks from the Post Office.
I do want to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution so
far this year. Your support is greatly appreciated and is what makes the
Lists possible.
How to support your Lists this month: http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kolb for sale in Findlay OH |
I have a FSII and trailer for sale in Parkersburg WV, on the Ohio border.
Paul @ 304 424-6074
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: [ Larry Bourne ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
| From: | Gene Ledbetter <gdledbetter1(at)fuse.net> |
Larry
That radial engine is an R4360 used on the B50 and B36. I went to tech
school on that engine in 1952. Doesn't seem like 50 years ago.
Gene Ledbetter
Cincinnati
Firefly - just turned 140 hours.
Can hardly wait to trailer to Florida so I can spend another winter
flying with Duane the Plane........
------------
On Friday, November 29, 2002, at 10:03 PM, Email List Photo Shares
wrote:
>
>
>
> A new Email List Photo Share is available:
>
> Poster: Larry Bourne
>
>
> Subject: Non-Kolb Radial Engine
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/biglar@gogittum.com.2.11.29.2002/
> index.html
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> o EMAIL LIST PHOTO SHARE
>
> Share your files and photos with other List members simply by
> emailing the files to:
>
> pictures(at)matronics.com
>
> Please view the typical Share above and include the Description
> Text
> Fields as shown along with your submission of files and photos.
>
> o Main Photo Share Index:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-> _-
> ======================================================================
> _-
> ======================================================================
> _-
> ======================================================================
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fackler, Ken" <kfackler(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: List Report... |
Just before Xmas can be a bit of a bite for some, especially with the
economy this year. I know, for example, my own company (EDS) has had about 5
or 6 layoffs in the last 12 months.
So here's my suggestion. Could you have another fundraiser in the spring?
That's just when "flying season" gets going anyway. I don't plan to, but a
lot of the pilots around here put their birds in storage for the winter and
are probably less likely to be interested in supporting the list or anything
else aviation-related.
Just a thought...
-Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Kolb-List: List Report...
>
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> This is the last "official" day of the List Fund Raiser. Based on
previous
> year's percentages of Lister's making a Contribution, this year we are
> nearly 40% behind the normal... And I thought all those great gifts would
> eke the percentage up past the average a little. Oh well. Maybe people
> just don't really mind the flashing banner ads for Viagra, and popups for
> X10 minicams...
>
> There's still plenty of time to get your name of the List of
> Contributors. I'll probably publish the LOC on Monday night after I
> process the checks from the Post Office.
>
> I do want to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution so
> far this year. Your support is greatly appreciated and is what makes the
> Lists possible.
>
> How to support your Lists this month:
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
>
> Thank you!
>
> Matt Dralle
> Email List Admin.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Ballenger" <ulpilot(at)cavtel.net> |
| Subject: | MK III X WING SPAR H SECTION |
Kolbers
I am installing the H section in the spar. I was expecting to have to grease the
the bracket but decided to try it without grease first. The H section just
slide right in. I think it may be a little loose. I have the H section in the
spar with the bolt in place and 4 clecos at 10.25 " from the center of the
1/2" bolt. Now my questions: I removed the bolt and measured a 1/32 " gap between
the spar tube and the H section at the bolt hole. Is this acceptable?
Can I squeeze it down with the bolt while I make up the rivets? I removed one
of the clecos and measured a 1/16 " gap between the H section and the wing spar.
Is this acceptable? Can I take a clamp and squeeze the spar down to the
H section while drilling the holes and installing clecos?
Thanks
Jim Ballenger
Flying a FS KXP 447
Building a MK III X
Virginia Beach, VA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SGreenpg(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: MK III X WING SPAR H SECTION |
In a message dated 11/30/02 6:54:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ulpilot(at)cavtel.net writes:
November 18, 2002 - November 30, 2002
Kolb-Archive.digest.vol-dz