RV-Archive.digest.vol-ad
February 19, 1994 - June 03, 1994
wood
Apr 93, 10, Bolts for Wood Props
Feb 93, 6, Safety
Mar 92, 9, Flying Tips
publications
Dec 93, 14, Calendars
Jun 93, 8, Magazine Features
Apr 93, 8, Comments on Recent Aviation Consumer Magazine Articles
Aug 92, 10, Aft C.G. Comments
Mar 92, 12, Recommended Reading
public relations
Oct 93, 8, Kitplanes and the General Public
Apr 93, 7, Aerobatic Competition Ban on RV-3
Apr 93, 8, Comments on Recent Aviation Consumer Magazine Articles
push-pull tube
see control tube
racing
Jun 93, 7, Sun 100 Race
radio
antenna
Oct 93, 7, Antennas
comm
Aug 93, 8, New Products
Aug 92, 9, Choosing a Comm Radio
GPS
Aug 93, 8, New Products
Jun 93, 15, New Products
Apr 93, 11, New Products
Jun 92, 12, New Products
King
Aug 93, 8, New Products
Loran
Aug 93, 8, New Products
marker beacon
Aug 93, 8, New Products
nav/comm
Aug 92, 9, Choosing a Comm Radio
TKM MX 11 & MX300V
Aug 92, 9, Choosing a Comm Radio
transponder
Aug 93, 8, New Products
VOR
Aug 93, 8, New Products
rear spar
see wing
Regina
Oct 92, 17, Calendar and Recent Events
revisions
Oct 92, 18, Plans Revisions
Ridell, Ralph
Sep 91, 6, Preparing an RV-4 for Aerobatic Competition
Mar 91, 5, The RV-4 in Competitive Aerobatics
riveting
Jun 93, 9, Building Techniques and Hints
riveting techniques
Feb 93, 14, Hot Stuff!
rivets
Apr 93, 9, Soft Rivets: Boon or Boondoggle?
Mar 91, 12, Pea Soup
rod end bearings
Jun 93, 14, Hardware Problems
Jun 92, 13, Rod End Bearing - Min. Thread Engagement
roll rate
Sep 91, 6, Preparing an RV-4 for Aerobatic Competition
rudder
cable guide
Dec 92, 13, Builder's Tips
skin stiffeners
Dec 91, 14, Control Surface Skin Stiffeners
trailing edge
Oct 92, 13, Builders Tips
trim
Feb 93, 13, Check those Flange Angles
rudder pedal
Apr 92, 9, RV-6 Overhead Rudder Pedals
Sep 90, 7, Mandatory Change Notice (RV-6 rudder pedal)
rumors
Sep 91, 11, Rumors
running lights
Feb 93, 11, Weight and Balance Considerations in Lighting Systems
RV-3
Mar 92, 6, List of finished RV-3s
RV-6F
Oct 93, 19, First Flights - RV-6F
RV-8
Sep 90, 7, RV-8 Revisited
RV college
see classes
safety
Dec 93, 7, Safety
Dec 93, 13, Don't Be a Jerk
Apr 93, 5, Low Altitude/Low Visibility Traffic Pattern Hazards
Apr 93, 7, Aerobatic Competition Ban on RV-3
Oct 92, 5, Flying at Aft CG
Jun 92, 5, Safety
Jun 92, 7, Safety Followup
Apr 92, 6, Safety
Mar 92, 7, Second Hand Homebuilts
Dec 91, 10, Safety
Dec 91, 12, Other things to look out for
Sep 91, 13, Safety: Keep the Engine Running!!!
Mar 91, 14, Safety
Sep 90, 9, Safety: High Density Traffic
Sep 90, 14, RV Accidents
Salmon Arm
Jun 92, 10, Gatherings
SAMA
Mar 92, 10, SAMA-Simplified Certification
Jun 91, 8, SAMA - Primary Aircraft Category Progress Report
Sep 90, 6, SAMA: Primary Category Certification
Sask
Oct 92, 17, Calendar and Recent Events
Scappoose
Jun 93, 12, Builders Conferences
Jun 92, 10, Gatherings
SCAT tube
Jun 92, 7, Safety Followup
screw dimple die
Aug 93, 9, Useful Stuff
scud running
Dec 92, 9, Confessions of a Scud Runner
Dec 92, 10, 1992 RV Accidents
seat belt
see shoulder harness
second hand
see used kits
Sensenich
see propeller
shimmy
see landing gear
shipping
Apr 93, 12, Shipping Tips
Dec 92, 10, 1992: The Usual Year-In-Review Stuff
Dec 92, 16, Ordering from Van's
Aug 92, 12, Shop Notes
Jun 92, 12, New UPS Service
short field procedures
see landing technique
shoulder harness
Apr 92, 14, Seat Belts/Shoulder Harnesses
Dec 91, 13, New Products
Sep 91, 13, New Products
Jun 91, 6, RV-6 Shoulder Harness Re-Design
silicone cleaner
Jun 92, 12, Builders Tips
skin, riveting
Feb 93, 14, Hot Stuff!
sliding canopy
see canopy
slosh
Dec 93, 15, Fuel Tank Slosh Sealer
Oct 93, 15, Fuel Tank Slosh Problem
Jun 91, 5, Fuel Tank Sloshing
slow flight
Apr 92, 7, Refresher Course-Slow Flight
soaring
Dec 93, 16, RV Soar Heads- Unite!
spar
see wing
speed
see airspeed
spinner plate
see propeller
stability
Oct 92, 5, Flying at Aft CG
Jun 92, 5, Safety
stainless hose
Sep 90, 14, Possible Problems
stall strip
Sep 91, 6, Preparing an RV-4 for Aerobatic Competition
starter
see engine
static stability
see stability
static system
Sep 91, 11, Air Speed & Static System
step, RV-6A
Jun 92, 12, New Products
stick
see flight controls
stories
Jun 92, 9, The Pronghorn RV-4
Dec 91, 8, The Flatlanders Fly West
Jun 91, 9, Flying Stories
strobe lights
Feb 93, 11, Weight and Balance Considerations in Lighting Systems
Sun'N'Fun
Apr 93, 10, Summer's Here!
Feb 93, 10, Sun'N'Fun Travel- Enroute Stopovers
Apr 92, 5, On the Road Again
Jun 91, 7, Sun'N'Fun Trip
Sun 100
Jun 93, 7, Sun 100 Race
television
Aug 93, 13, NOTARVs
test flying
see flight testing
Texas
Jun 92, 9, The Pronghorn RV-4
thermocouple
see engine
throttle
see engine
thrust
Aug 93, 5, How does it go fast?
tilt-up canopy
see canopy
Tolle, Alan
Aug 92, 11, New Products
tools
cutting wheel
Apr 92, 12, RV-6 Builder/Pilot Dick Meyers...
suppliers
Apr 92, 12, Bob Swanson....
Mar 92, 5, Tool Supplier Survey
wire grip
Aug 92, 11, Wire Grip Ends for Choke Cables
torque values
see AN hardware torque values
trailing edge
see control surface
transponder
see radio
travel
Aug 93, 13, Fly-In Reviews
Aug 93, 13, NOTARVs
Aug 93, 14, tRaVeling
Jun 93, 5, The First RV-6 in New Zealand
Jun 93, 12, Builders Conferences
Apr 93, 3, Proceeding Cautiously to Victory - Building an RV in Greece
Apr 93, 10, Summer's Here!
Feb 93, 10, Sun'N'Fun Travel- Enroute Stopovers
Feb 93, 10, England
Jun 92, 10, Travel Club
Jun 92, 10, Gatherings
Apr 92, 5, On the Road Again
Apr 92, 13, Summer Traveling
Dec 91, 8, The Flatlanders Fly West
Sep 90, 14, Travellers Club
trim
Feb 93, 13, Check those Flange Angles
Oct 92, 13, Builders Tips
Aug 92, 5, Altering the Aileron Trailing Edge - one way to trim your
airplane
Aug 92, 11, Mechanical Aileron Trim System
upholstery
Apr 92, 14, Upholstered Interiors
UPS
Apr 93, 12, Shipping Tips
Jun 92, 12, New UPS Service
used kits
Jun 93, 13, Oh, Those Good Deals
Mar 92, 7, Second Hand Homebuilts
VA-126 & 146
Dec 92, 16, AN-218, VA-126
Van's Homecoming
Aug 93, 13, Fly-In Reviews
Aug 93, 14, tRaVeling
Oct 92, 17, Calendar and Recent Events
Dec 91, 8, The Flatlanders Fly West
Sep 91, 12, RV Homecoming
Sep 90, 5, Fly-In Reviews
vapor-lock
Dec 91, 10, Safety
vendors
Feb 93, 10, New Addresses
vent
Oct 93, 14, Increasing the Effectiveness of Air Vents: Vortex Generators
Vetterman
see engine exhaust system
VFR
Dec 92, 9, Confessions of a Scud Runner
vibration dampener
see propeller
videos
Aug 93, 13, NOTARVs
VOR
see radio
vortex generator
Oct 93, 14, Increasing the Effectiveness of Air Vents: Vortex Generators
W-425
Feb 93, 7, Kit Improvements and Explanations
washer
Apr 93, 13, Washer Clarification
washer AN-960-10L
Aug 93, 7, Mystery Washer Explained
water
Dec 93, 11, Drain Holes in RVs
weather
Dec 92, 5, IFR in RVs
Dec 92, 8, IFR in an RV-6
Dec 92, 9, Confessions of a Scud Runner
Oct 92, 10, IFR in RVs
weight & balance
Feb 93, 11, Weight and Balance Considerations in Lighting Systems
Oct 92, 5, Flying at Aft CG
Aug 92, 10, Aft C.G. Comments
Jun 92, 5, Safety
Jun 92, 7, An Unfortunate Paradox
Apr 92, 6, Safety
Wentz, Don
Dec 93, 13, Don't Be a Jerk
wheel fairing
see landing gear
windshield
Dec 92, 13, Building a Fairing around the RV-6 Optional Windshield
wing
aileron bellcrank
Dec 93, 12, Accidental Use of .063 Angle for Aileron Bellcrank Mount
Apr 93, 13, We Goofed
Feb 93, 7, Kit Improvements and Explanations
construction
Sep 90, 12, Wing Tips
flap
see flap
fuselage attach
Jun 93, 9, Rear Spar/Fuselage Alignment & Drilling
fuselage skin joint
Oct 92, 15, Builders Tips
gusset
Feb 93, 7, Kit Improvements and Explanations
incidence
Jun 93, 9, Rear Spar/Fuselage Alignment & Drilling
jig
Feb 93, 5, Jigs - Let's Be Reasonable
Dec 92, 13, Builder's Tips
lightening hole
Dec 92, 15, Kit Changes
pre-built
Dec 93, 14, Reduced Labor RV-6 Wing Kits
Apr 92, 11, Building Wing Spars
rear spar
Jun 93, 9, Rear Spar/Fuselage Alignment & Drilling
Oct 92, 11, Accidents
rear spar fitting
Aug 93, 7, More on Rear Spar Fittings
rib
Dec 93, 14, Laser Cut Bulkheads and Ribs
Dec 92, 15, Kit Changes
rib installation
Sep 91, 15, Builders Tips and Safety Notes
riveting skin
Feb 93, 14, Hot Stuff!
skin
Jun 91, 13, Wing Tips
spar
Dec 91, 5, Tired Wings? Anodized Spars and Fatigue Strength
spar assembly
Dec 93, 12, General Caution
spar bolt
Jun 93, 10, "Tight" Bolts in Spar Splice Plates
spar construction
Apr 92, 11, Building Wing Spars
wingtip lights
Feb 93, 11, Weight and Balance Considerations in Lighting Systems
wire grip
see tools
wiring
Jun 92, 13, Wing Wiring Conduit
Dec 91, 13, New Products
wood propeller
see propeller
workshop
Sep 91, 5, But, is it Housebroken?
yearbook
Dec 93, 14, RV Yearbooks
Zenair
Dec 93, 4, First Flights - RV-6F
Oct 93, 19, First Flights - RV-6F
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Test, Please Ignore... |
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | wing wiring conduit |
Hey All,
I'm prepping my wing ribs and am getting ready to drill holes for the
wing wiring conduit, and am wondering about options for material and
placement. I've heard and read a couple of methods using different materials
and locations to run it and am weighing the pros and cons. Here's what I
know so far:
In talking to Bill Benedict the other day he said just use 1/2" flexible
tubing from the H/W store and run it close to the bottom of the rib
so if it sags it'll have support and not get in the way of the aileron
bellcrank. He also said you could optionally run it through the leading edge
ribs just forward of the spar, and behind the fuel tank, which would keep
it out of the way of the bellcrank altogether, and also put it closer to the
leading edge light.
Frank Justice's instructions, on the other hand, call for 1/2" PVC pipe, aft
of the spar (through the main ribs), and towards the top of the wing. Since
PVC is rigid there wouldn't be a problem with sagging, and I think the PVC
might be more resistant to heat (and/or fire?), and stronger, but it's
probably a little heavier, and I suspect it could cause an annoying squeak
as the wing flexes.
Then there's the flexible conduit supplied by Van's which I've heard nothing
about, but looks to be very light but might be more difficult to run wire
through since it's corrugated.
Any opinions on all of this? I know it's a relatively minor issue, but I
worry about the tiniest little things....
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re: wing wiring conduit |
I recommended 1/2" CPVC (the tan stuff made for HOT water pipes) and ran
it behind the main spar for one big reason; it would allow you to
replace wiring or add new at any time without having to disassemble
anything. The pipe is very light and is very close to the center of
gravity; go to your hardware store and lift a piece. It provides
absolute protection of the wiring from chafing, and RTV or ProSeal is
used around each rib hole to keep the rib from chafing a hole in the
conduit. One disadvantage is that wiring brought into the fuselage
behind the main spar must be routed over it to get to the panel. This
means you have to drill and grommet several little holes in the bulkhead
there; it is not big enough for one big hole.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
| Subject: | Re: wing wiring conduit |
>
> Hey All,
>
> I'm prepping my wing ribs and am getting ready to drill holes for the
> wing wiring conduit, and am wondering about options for material and
> placement. I've heard and read a couple of methods using different materials
> and locations to run it and am weighing the pros and cons. Here's what I
> know so far:
>
>
> Randall
>
Randall,
In the "For what it's worth dept."
I am using the corragated tubing from Van's as wire conduit. It is super
light. To install I used a unibit to drill the holes. The end holes should
11/16" and the intermediary holes 13/16" by slightly collapsing the tube
it fits into the 11/16" holes in the low portion of the corrigations. I
placed this tube in front of the spar. Some planning and trial fitting
should be done as to where to drill the hole on the inboard leading edge
rib (this is the one that the fuel tank screws into) because you have to bend
the tube to get it behind the rear fuel tank bulkhead. (It is a slight
bend if planned correctly.)
I also used the black grommets supplied by Van's, these installed in the
rear of the spar, in the main ribs. MAKE SURE THE WIRE USED HERE DOES NOT
INTERFER WITH THE PUSHPULL TUBES ETC.. I will be using a Whelen Strobe
P/S centrally located. The wiring exactly fits into these bushings.
Two reasons to run the strobe wire in the main rib area. 1) Keep the
high voltage away from the fuel tank. In time the wire could break down
and Possibly arc and if there is any fuel present BOOM! Not a pretty picture.
2) I want to seperate the main electrical conductor from the high voltage
conductor. To minimize interferance. I do not plan on installing any
com or nav antennas in the wing tip (besides com antenas need to be
vertical) but I can visualize where satellites will be providing more
information to us in the future than just navigation, and who knows what
the antenna requirements will be.
As for pulling new cable (don't try pushing cable not fun) you can use
two means installed in the conduit (either type conduit) to help the pulling.
1) Run a string into the conduit, leaving enough string on one end, outside
of the conduit, to equal the length plus a foot. This way when you use
the string to pull a cable you will have string to pull the original
length back into the conduit. I have found a 35mm film canister stores the
excess string just fine, a bit of duct tape to hold the canister in place.
2) Use some old cable to pull new cable. This if you are replaceing a cable
already installed.
Finally, use shielded cable for anything you run out the wing. Those wires
are running very close and very parallel to each other. It would be pretty
easy to induce a signal from one wire to the rest.
Blue skies and Tail Winds
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6 In the womb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)iatc.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | Re: wing wiring conduit |
> In the "For what it's worth dept."
>
> I am using the corragated tubing from Van's as wire conduit. It is super
> light. To install I used a unibit to drill the holes. The end holes should
> 11/16" and the intermediary holes 13/16" by slightly collapsing the tube
> it fits into the 11/16" holes in the low portion of the corrigations. I
> placed this tube in front of the spar. Some planning and trial fitting
> should be done as to where to drill the hole on the inboard leading edge
> rib (this is the one that the fuel tank screws into) because you have to bend
> the tube to get it behind the rear fuel tank bulkhead. (It is a slight
> bend if planned correctly.)
>
> I also used the black grommets supplied by Van's, these installed in the
> rear of the spar, in the main ribs. MAKE SURE THE WIRE USED HERE DOES NOT
> INTERFER WITH THE PUSHPULL TUBES ETC.. I will be using a Whelen Strobe
> P/S centrally located. The wiring exactly fits into these bushings.
>
> Two reasons to run the strobe wire in the main rib area. 1) Keep the
> high voltage away from the fuel tank. In time the wire could break down
> and Possibly arc and if there is any fuel present BOOM! Not a pretty picture.
> 2) I want to seperate the main electrical conductor from the high voltage
> conductor. To minimize interferance. I do not plan on installing any
> com or nav antennas in the wing tip (besides com antenas need to be
> vertical) but I can visualize where satellites will be providing more
> information to us in the future than just navigation, and who knows what
> the antenna requirements will be.
>
> As for pulling new cable (don't try pushing cable not fun) you can use
> two means installed in the conduit (either type conduit) to help the pulling.
> 1) Run a string into the conduit, leaving enough string on one end, outside
> of the conduit, to equal the length plus a foot. This way when you use
> the string to pull a cable you will have string to pull the original
> length back into the conduit. I have found a 35mm film canister stores the
> excess string just fine, a bit of duct tape to hold the canister in place.
> 2) Use some old cable to pull new cable. This if you are replaceing a cable
> already installed.
>
> Finally, use shielded cable for anything you run out the wing. Those wires
> are running very close and very parallel to each other. It would be pretty
> easy to induce a signal from one wire to the rest.
>
> Blue skies and Tail Winds
>
> Doug Bloomberg
> RV-6 In the womb
>
>
What Doug described is pretty much what I've done, however I did run the
Van's conduit thru the rear of the leading edge ribs and then under the
fuel tanks. My strobes have the hi-voltage power supplies in the wing tips,
so I'm not 'much' worried about the hi-volts under the tank. I was more
concerned with jamming the aileron tubes. Also, I'm trying to avoid any
wires from the wings and the aft portion of the plane from traveling thru
the cabin area. What I'm doing is routing the aft wires out the fuselage
side just foward of the rear spar, run the wires under the wing/root fairing
and then reenter the fuselage just forward of the panel. Haven't done it
yet but I plan on doing it this way.
Also with some advise from Don, I've pretty much finished the panel and
have the instruments all mounted. However, for the electrical system I
plan on using two seperate fuse-blocks like you find on modern autos (the
kind with the blade fuses. I'll have a seperate one for the avionics and
one that will cover everything else. They will be mounted on the right
fuselage lower side, just forward of the panel. I'll be using an external
shunt ammeter and will be using contactors to provide power to each fuse-block.
In addition, the toggle switches on my panel (for the higher power devices)
will control small power relays that are located near the fuseblocks (on the
right side) and also on the pilot side (for the left wing pitot heat and
lights/strobes). This will keep all higher current wires away from the panel
and will hopefully minimize the electrical fire hazard. Using the fuse-blocks
makes the wiring and power-bus distribution very straighforward and easy to
update. I can easily reach over to replace a fuse if ever needed. I looked
at both the panel-mounted breaker standard fuse approach but like the above
described approach better.
Gary B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.wv.tek.com> |
| Subject: | Re: wing wiring conduit |
Reply to: RE>wing wiring conduit
Randal,
My most recient experience with my bud Don Wentz showed that routing thru the
wing spar is a clever idea...he heard that someware
so we punched a clean hole thru the webbing someware near the tank inboard
edge...get with him on the exact location...
we used a wire bundle ...wires wrapped and shielded... and shoved it
thru... then realized we had more wires to add...and it was a mother gettin
any thing thru.... in face Don decided to redo the wiring any way, so we
will be yankin that out and putting probably another bundle in there.
I have stuffed probably a mile of wires thru wing conduits... I like a larger
conduit... Don used something that was around what? 5/8"? I think...
it was thick stuff too... use something thick! you will thank your self
when your pushing!
as far as location... Thick conduit will not sag.. in fact I used to glue
the conduit at each rib... sure I took into account the flex so I left some
space between the glue nodule and the rib... sag is not really an issue.
avoiding the belcrank didn'[t seem to be difficult but I would watch where
you put your conduit anyway... here is what I did...
I made a template that fit inside of each rib... I marked it for fluting,
lightening holes, and the conduit... the conduit was high...
top and forward of the middle lightening hole... that seemed to work with out
any trouble... remember the belcrank is on the botom so avoiding it was no
prob.
Use something stiff...but I don't think PVC is necessary. Don used a tubing
of some sort...ask him where he got it... it worked good...
the larger I/D the better. you have plenty of room on the rib for a hole...
have seen some wings with a tube thru the lightening holes...it was
safety wired or held there somehow... quick and dirty! but functional.
good luck Randal
Doug Miner
(Ex-Phlogiston)
--------------------------------------
Date: 3/2/94 4:17 PM
From: Randall Henderson
Hey All,
I'm prepping my wing ribs and am getting ready to drill holes for the
wing wiring conduit, and am wondering about options for material and
placement. I've heard and read a couple of methods using different materials
and locations to run it and am weighing the pros and cons. Here's what I
know so far:
In talking to Bill Benedict the other day he said just use 1/2" flexible
tubing from the H/W store and run it close to the bottom of the rib
so if it sags it'll have support and not get in the way of the aileron
bellcrank. He also said you could optionally run it through the leading edge
ribs just forward of the spar, and behind the fuel tank, which would keep
it out of the way of the bellcrank altogether, and also put it closer to the
leading edge light.
Frank Justice's instructions, on the other hand, call for 1/2" PVC pipe, aft
of the spar (through the main ribs), and towards the top of the wing. Since
PVC is rigid there wouldn't be a problem with sagging, and I think the PVC
might be more resistant to heat (and/or fire?), and stronger, but it's
probably a little heavier, and I suspect it could cause an annoying squeak
as the wing flexes.
Then there's the flexible conduit supplied by Van's which I've heard nothing
about, but looks to be very light but might be more difficult to run wire
through since it's corrugated.
Any opinions on all of this? I know it's a relatively minor issue, but I
worry about the tiniest little things....
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re[2]: wing wiring conduit |
Doug M and Randall:
Randall and I have been batting some ideas around privately the last day or two
with about the same conclusions but still some questions.
>My most recient experience with my bud Don Wentz showed that routing thru the
>wing spar is a clever idea...he heard that someware
>so we punched a clean hole thru the webbing someware near the tank inboard
>edge...get with him on the exact location...
I have a wing but no fuselage to look at, but it appears that there is a "just
right" place just inboard of the inboard main rib flange.
>we used a wire bundle ...wires wrapped and shielded... and shoved it
>thru... then realized we had more wires to add...and it was a mother gettin
>any thing thru.... in face Don decided to redo the wiring any way, so we
>will be yankin that out and putting probably another bundle in there.
I figured from the beginning that at some point I would want to replace or add
wires, so I looked for a solution optimized for that. This means use a rigid
conduit with no bends, and both ends accessible.
>I have stuffed probably a mile of wires thru wing conduits... I like a larger
>conduit... Don used something that was around what? 5/8"? I think...
>it was thick stuff too... use something thick! you will thank your self
>when your pushing!
Rigid gets you the same effect as thick for this purpose. I used 1/2" CPVC (tan
hot water pipe) which is 1/2" inside diameter; large enough for two coax cables
and about 4 #16 wires.
> the conduit was high...
>top and forward of the middle lightening hole... that seemed to work with out
>any trouble... remember the belcrank is on the botom so avoiding it was no
>prob.
I put mine on top and forward of the front lightening hole, thinking I would cut
a small access hole in the fuselage skin; the thought just struck me though that
the bulkhead flanges may block this. Will have to check tonight. If this is the
case, is there room to get your fingers down between the fuselage and the wing
skin to manipulate the wires from the conduit to the spar hole?
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
rv-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re[3]: wing wiring conduit |
OK, rather than try to work this into the paragraphs below, I will just add my
comments here:
It is relatively easy to transition from behind the spar to infront of it, but
probably not necessary. I initially did it to keep the wiring in the cockpit in
front of the spar. However, when I wired the cockpit, I ended-up with most
everything BEHIND the spar (mainly due to all of my stinking electric trims and
PTT switches and stuff that runs-up the cntl sticks).
I got some 5/8" nylon tube from Boeing surplus for almost free, but I think
Frank's CPVC pipe would be easier to get and just as functional for a straight
run.
Whatever you use, leaving a 'pull string' in for later use isn't a bad idea.
Separating the strobe output lines from everything else is a good idea too.
More up-front thought into what will need to go from the panel to the
wings/sticks wouldn't hurt either. It would help you to better plan how you do
the wings (although it is a little tough to visualize the panel and cockpit
wiring when you are building the wings!).
dw
Doug M and Randall:
Randall and I have been batting some ideas around privately the last day
-or two
with about the same conclusions but still some questions.
>My most recient experience with my bud Don Wentz showed that routing
-thru the
>wing spar is a clever idea...he heard that someware
>so we punched a clean hole thru the webbing someware near the tank inboard
>edge...get with him on the exact location...
I have a wing but no fuselage to look at, but it appears that there is
-a "just
right" place just inboard of the inboard main rib flange.
>we used a wire bundle ...wires wrapped and shielded... and shoved it
>thru... then realized we had more wires to add...and it was a mother gettin
>any thing thru.... in face Don decided to redo the wiring any way, so we
>will be yankin that out and putting probably another bundle in there.
I figured from the beginning that at some point I would want to replace
-or add
wires, so I looked for a solution optimized for that. This means use
-a rigid
conduit with no bends, and both ends accessible.
>I have stuffed probably a mile of wires thru wing conduits... I like
-a larger
>conduit... Don used something that was around what? 5/8"? I think...
>it was thick stuff too... use something thick! you will thank your self
>when your pushing!
Rigid gets you the same effect as thick for this purpose. I used 1/2"
-CPVC (tan
hot water pipe) which is 1/2" inside diameter; large enough for two coax
-cables
and about 4 #16 wires.
> the conduit was high...
>top and forward of the middle lightening hole... that seemed to work
-with out
>any trouble... remember the belcrank is on the botom so avoiding it was no
>prob.
I put mine on top and forward of the front lightening hole, thinking I
-would cut
a small access hole in the fuselage skin; the thought just struck me though
-that
the bulkhead flanges may block this. Will have to check tonight. If this
-is the
case, is there room to get your fingers down between the fuselage and
-the wing
skin to manipulate the wires from the conduit to the spar hole?
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
| Subject: | Flying a RV-6, WOW! |
Is it Worth the Time, the Money, the Effort ???
YOU BET IT IS !!!
For those of you who do not have a Buddy with a flying RV and have at best
only had a flight with Van for 15 TOO short minutes somewhere back when
you didn't know a flange from a rib. I rode with a friend in his newly
completed RV-6. In two trips I have spent almost 4 hours in his RV.
My buddy Mas Yoshida started his RV-6 3 1/2 years ago, In Jan he had his
first flight. There is nothing glaringly different about his plane other
than he did an Excellent job of building it. Very craftsman efforts.
It is your basic RV-6, low time O-360, with constant speed prop. He has
a full vacuum system, DG, Horizon. He added electric flaps but retained
the manual trim. Mas also uses Van's spring aileron trim system.
Electrics are a VAL radio and a Garmin GPS-100.
First some thoughts by Mas on changes he would do over. 1) shorten the
arm on the trim tab, it is too sensitive, 1/8 turn has you climbing or
decending at a fairly large Delta from level. 2) He has his engine controls
located horizonally on a small plate below the panel. He suggests moving
the controls onto the lower middle of the panel. This keeps people from
kicking the controls when climbing in or out of the cockpit. 3) Mas had problems
with his radio transmissions, the tower folks complained that he was almost
unreadable on the ground and never better that 4/4 in the air. Mas' antenna
was bent back (45degrees) whip located under the fuselage in the main spar area.
He moved it to the top side and now uses a D&M tapered antenna. He can now
call up the tower from 80 miles out (we were at 7500' the tower is at 5600').
Now for the good stuff....
Taxiing was excellent, visablity was great over the nose, you could actually
see the ground ahead of you, maybe 40' out or so. The wind was light both days
so cross wind taxiing was not a factor, but Mas says it is very tracktable.
Take off at 5660' MSL on a 55F day was done using 10 degrees flaps. After
runup Mas was cleared to the active. After lining up on the centerline
we had 10,000' of runway ahead of us (Runways tend to be longer at higher
elevations) Mas gingerly pushing in the throttle until we showed 25" MP @
2700 RPM. (The tail was off the ground long before we reached the above power
settings) Using the runway distance markers we were off and climbing before
the first intersection, and the 1st 1000' marker. This with half fuel left tank,
full fuel right, Mas at 175Lbs, and me ... well those that have met me know
I am one of those "full Figured Girls" so I figure we were at Gross or
a little under, this RV weighs in at 1045 empty. Mas kept full throttle
until we were 500' off the deck, which wasn't long, climb rate was ~1800'/min.
Staying under the TCA opps... Class B the nose went down until level
flight. And boy is the nose low, some difference from the Bonanza.
Flying North we overflew a couple of airfields looking for friends, none
up or out that day. When I first took over the controls I tended to
overcontrol. Then I loosened my grip rested my wrist on my thigh and all
was well. We trimmed for pitch and roll and it flew hands off, ball centered.
(Mas did during flight testing have to squeeze the aileron trailing edge
of the light, while in flight, wing. This gave a level flight attitude.
I glanced at the airspeed indicator and it looked to read about 165-170 mph.
We were at 7,500' temp about 50F. The GPS indicated 216 mph ground speed.
Mas did some magic twiddling to the GPS and it showed 198mph TAS. The
gauges showed 20" MP, 2400 RPM.
Normal and steep turns were easy and very precise, when placed into a
proper bank it stayed there. I went looking for some turbulence, we do
get that here in Colorado and the plane handled it well, about as much bounce
as a Bonanza, and oh so much easier to correct. I didn't notice a tendency
to overcorrect, which is Good news.
Turns in general were very uneventful, little if any rudder was used at
cruise speeds. At speed under 85 I noticed the need for a little rudder
to keep the ball centered.
After playing and getting used to just normal flying we did a bunch of stalls.
We cleared the area, we were flying at 9500' MSL, and slowed down.
With idle power and no flaps I gently held the nose up, with about 10 degrees
nose high attitude I held it there. At first I felt a bit of turbulance
in my butt, then I definately felt a shaking in the stick, with a much
stronger shake. Just one though, the left wing dropped. Kicking right
rudder and about an inch relaxing of the stick it was flying. No power
increase, and about 50' lost in altitude. The airspeed said >40 mph the
GPS said 56 mph. I tried again with flaps, 10, 20, 40. Pretty much the
same, except the GPS read lower 52 or 51 was the lowest.
While flying slow I did some slow flight, with full flaps the airspeed was
on the peg. I don't remember what the GPS read. The controls were sloppy
(for a RV) and the nose was up about 15 degrees, maybe a little more.
I increased speed and noticed the controls got more precise. The speed
where they felt nice and tight and looseness gone was 70 mph indicated. Mas
said this is the speed he does not want to get below in the pattern.
At 80 mph I tried some departure stalls. With full power it wanted to loop.
Climbing thru 10,000' I throttled back to normal cruise climb and held the
nose about 35 degrees off the horizon, It slowed down after a while, shook
a little (the shaking is not apparent, Aunt Tilly would not notice it, but
being the ACE RVator I be, I knew a stall was a coming) The harder shake and
the left wing dropped, right rudder and relax the stick we were flying again.
I tried left and right turns, again stalls broke to the left. I figure
the breaking to the left is caused by the torque and the fact the vertacle
stabilizer is not offset.
All this stall stuff has taken 15 or 20 minutes and the oil and head temps
were up, but not in the red. I lowered the nose and we cruised for a while.
2400 rpm was a nice speed, minimum vibrations. I think the gyro's were happy
by not buzzing around, why turn the engine in a range that causes
vibrations, it just lowers the MTBF of the gyros. Also the mass of that constant
speed really helped dampen the power pulses.
I played ground attack role, put the nose down and strafed some trucks and
cars. At 200+ indicated the controls did get stiffer, but were they
responsive.
Playing done with I asked Mas if he wanted a Burger and coke. He said
Yep. (Never heard of a RVator to turn down some good grub.) So we
headed to Greeley Co. The Weld County airport is a nice friendly airport,
the regional EAA flyin is held there the last weekend in June, last year
we had 26 or 27 RV's turn up. A squadron from Waco flew in, 16 RVs in that
group alone. Weld County is 4600' MSL has a E-W and N-S runway layout.
The E-W runway is longish at 6800' the N-S is a short 3500'. I put
the plane into the downwind at 95 slowed, using 10 degrees flaps to 85,
turned base, slowed to 80, turned final, put in 10 more degrees of flap.
Slowed to 75, a nailed the center line. With about 7 mph of wind coming
from our 10:00 Mas took the controls and wheel landed at 55 or 60 mph.
The rollout was short. I asked why not 40 degrees flap and Mas said it tended
to desend like a stone. I guess you need power to keep up the lift at
full flap settings.
After a darned good lunch, @ $2.50 each were climbed in an headed back
towards JeffCo, home base.
I now took time to look around, I noticed how really great the view was.
I also noticed how you really need to wear a hat, or cook. Light colored
objects and some of the instruments tended to reflect on the canopy.
I would keep the glare shields etc. dark and as non-reflective as possible.
Leg room was good, noise was low, we had Peltor 7004s on, Vetterman's
crossover system worked well, we felt a little rumble on our heels but not
much. The vents were placed right and worked well. (the vents are mounted
in the panel, so that our knees would not smack them). All in all a very
good layout. I have ridden in Mustang II's and Thorp's the RV-6 is MUCH
more comfortable and wider.
We diverted to Tri-County airport, site of the Annual Builder Conference
Held Oct 22,23 this year, for some fuel. 100LL was $1.80/gal. The right
tank, which was full at takeoff, took 8.3 gallons, the tach said we had
flown 1.3 hours. This was pretty good.
After some hanger talk, and Mas smiling and answering LOTS of questions,
RVators have to know how to answer lots of questions, we headed out.
Jeffco was 5 minutes away. Another wheel landing and a long taxi to the
hanger (2 mile runways are sometimes a pain) we called it a day.
Boy, it is some airplane. I have flown 3 other RV-6's but not as long and
not as intense in the stalls and slow flight. But, ya know they all
flew alike. The wooden props are not as efficient, or as smooth. The
O-320's cannot climb like the bigger engine, but a 150 HP, club propped
RV is better'n anything else out there.
Dick VanGruensven I thank you, now if my boss would ever let me come
home instead of being here in Richland Washington I could bash some
rivets!!!
Get to work men IT IS WORTH THE TIME, MONEY, AND EFFORT....
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6 Not Even close enough to finished...
Dang IT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | Aileron bellcrank |
I am trynig to install the control rod between the aileron bellcrank and
the aileron. How do you know if it is nuertral position?? One drawing I
lookerd at had it one place while another piscture that I saw has it
ont
another way. Is there something I'm missing somewhere?? I don't wanrt to have
to redo this.
Chris Krieg
sorry for all the typos, I had my termtype set wrong and the stupid backspace
key does't seem to function proporly (see what I mean)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ward9(at)llnl.gov (Rich Ward) (Richard Ward) |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron bellcrank |
>I am trynig to install the control rod between the aileron bellcrank and
>the aileron. How do you know if it is nuertral position?? One drawing I
Hi Chris,
I just did this a few weeks ago. There is a dimension on one of the
drawings (the one that details the bellcrank construction and mounting),
the lower left side of that drawing for an rv4). If I recall right for an
rv4, the neutral position is when the bellcrank hole for the rod going to
the fuselage is 1 3/8" from the inside surface (root side) of the
L-brackets that hold the bellcrank. I noted when I was doing mine that this
was a revision to the drawing, so if your drawings are old, maybe you don't
have it.
-- Rich, rv4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.wv.tek.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron bellcrank |
Reply to: RE>Aileron bellcrank
Hmmm... two thoughts come to mind here..
1) the belcrank is two horned... are the pivot pointsin the horns susposed
to be parallel with the fusealage? I dont have the plans in my office sorry.
2) this may be easier... the alieron is very easy to set neutral... so do
that.. then adjust the rod-ends on both the stick to belcrank and belcrank to
aileron to the mid-range of their travel... that will get you really close.
You ought to be able to rig your aileron's deflection then... is it 11deg up
and 22 down? like I said I dont have the plans here...but the deflection is
the important thing.
Doug Miner
--------------------------------------
Date: 3/8/94 6:59 PM
From: Chris Krieg
I am trynig to install the control rod between the aileron bellcrank and
the aileron. How do you know if it is nuertral position?? One drawing I
lookerd at had it one place while another piscture that I saw has it
ont
another way. Is there something I'm missing somewhere?? I don't wanrt to have
to redo this.
Chris Krieg
sorry for all the typos, I had my termtype set wrong and the stupid backspace
key does't seem to function proporly (see what I mean)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
Matt:
Can you please add me back to the LIST!!
I think the last mail I got was about a month ago, there was some talk
about an index to all the RVators... Can you send me that if it has
been published now?
I'm working in GPS field now, at Ashtech - in Sunnyvale.
My new email address is: chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com
Chris.Schulte
RV-6 #21390
P.S. send me your email address again I've
lost it in the job move.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
| Subject: | Different Ailerons on 4's & 6's |
I know the RV-4 ailerons are longer then the RV-6 but are they
structurally different?
I was looking at some pictures while working on my ailerons and
thought I noticed that all the ailerons I've got pictures of have a
seam on the top side of the aileron.
In the drawings I have from VANs there is only one seam and it is on
the bottom of the aileron... It took me a while to come to the
conclusion that all the pictures I had were of RV-4 turning wings.
I'm I right? or should I just go back to the hanger??
Chris.
with seam's on the bottom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mor374(at)ccmime.its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
| Subject: | Re: Different Ailerons on 4's & 6's |
Hi Chris,
Funny you mention this, I was working on my RV4 ailerons last night. You are
right there is a structural difference between RV6's and 4's. I have worked on
both and on the 4's you have a seperate "D" nose peice while on the 6's its all
one part. The 4 is easier to build.
So keep going, you not doing the wrong thing.
Happy Riviting
John
Subject: Different Ailerons on 4's & 6's
Text item: Text_1
I know the RV-4 ailerons are longer then the RV-6 but are they
structurally different?
I was looking at some pictures while working on my ailerons and
thought I noticed that all the ailerons I've got pictures of have a
seam on the top side of the aileron.
In the drawings I have from VANs there is only one seam and it is on
the bottom of the aileron... It took me a while to come to the
conclusion that all the pictures I had were of RV-4 turning wings.
I'm I right? or should I just go back to the hanger??
Chris.
with seam's on the bottom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Different Ailerons on 4's & 6's |
> I was looking at some pictures while working on my ailerons and
> thought I noticed that all the ailerons I've got pictures of have a
> seam on the top side of the aileron.
>
> In the drawings I have from VANs there is only one seam and it is on
> the bottom of the aileron... It took me a while to come to the
> conclusion that all the pictures I had were of RV-4 turning wings.
>
> I'm I right? or should I just go back to the hanger??
Yeah the RV-4 aileron skins are two-piece whereas the RV-6 are one-piece. I
don't think there's any other difference (besides the length). I don't
know why Van's does them different - maybe they made the new design for the
RV-6 and it never propogated back to the -4, or maybe it has something to
do with the length.
A guy around here who builds wings for people uses RV-4 aileron skins
on all of the RV-6 wings he builds - he says he likes the design better and
he finds its easier to get them straight. He also prefers them because he is
able to turn the end ribs around and rivet them on from the inside, which
leaves a flat surface on the outside. He joggles the seams and they end
up looking really nice. He also uses pop rivets on both the top and the
bottom and he claims that that's the reason they come out so straight --
I guess the normal procedure is to buck the top rivets and then pop-rivet
the bottom, and since the bucked rivets tend to stretch the skin more it's
hard to avoid a bow in the aileron.
I'm relating his methods just as a point of interest -- me, I'll stick with
the stock ailerons, hope I can get em straight, and not worry about how flat
the ends are. Besides, I'm not as proficient with a joggle tool, nor am I
very bold about going outside the plans.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
Text item: Text_1
I'm just about done my second aileron...
They look very good, when I put them side to side I find they are
equal length (for - aft). But If I take one over to the plans and
stand one up on it's edge aligned with the side view (a full scale
drawing) I notice my ailerons are shorter (for -aft) the Vans
drawings, and not by millimeters, There is almost an 1/8" difference.
Looking back at the construction... since the skin is pre-bent I don't
know If I could have screwed it up that badly? Does anyone else have
any insight? I've not yet put them on the wings so I don't know how
noticeable the deviation will be.
Comment, advise, please.
BTW I bought my wing kit in spring/summer of 91.
Chris.
RV-6 #21390
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt G. Dralle 510-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron sizes |
>
> I'm just about done my second aileron...
>
> They look very good, when I put them side to side I find they are
> equal length (for - aft). But If I take one over to the plans and
> stand one up on it's edge aligned with the side view (a full scale
> drawing) I notice my ailerons are shorter (for -aft) the Vans
> drawings, and not by millimeters, There is almost an 1/8" difference.
>
> Looking back at the construction... since the skin is pre-bent I don't
> know If I could have screwed it up that badly? Does anyone else have
> any insight? I've not yet put them on the wings so I don't know how
> noticeable the deviation will be.
>
> Comment, advise, please.
>
> BTW I bought my wing kit in spring/summer of 91.
>
> Chris.
> RV-6 #21390
>
>
Humm, I wouldn't worry about that difference. The plans can shrink, the
original could have shrunk. Now, if you said that there was a 1" difference,
I'd get worried...
Matt Dralle
RV-4 Someday...
Chris S., I got your email and I'll respond soon.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
smtplink.ashtech.com!chris(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re[2]: Aileron sizes |
As Matt said, 1/8" isn't that scary. Remember, these things are hand built and
not any 2 are ever going to be the same. You may have pulled the skin tighter
on one vs the other, which would definitely change the length. When you mount
them on the wing, your biggest concern will be aligning the trailing edge of the
aileron with the flap anyway.
Keep on buckin'
dw
>
> I'm just about done my second aileron...
>
> They look very good, when I put them side to side I find they are
> equal length (for - aft). But If I take one over to the plans and
> stand one up on it's edge aligned with the side view (a full scale
> drawing) I notice my ailerons are shorter (for -aft) the Vans
> drawings, and not by millimeters, There is almost an 1/8" difference.
>
> Looking back at the construction... since the skin is pre-bent
I don't
> know If I could have screwed it up that badly? Does anyone else have
> any insight? I've not yet put them on the wings so I don't know how
> noticeable the deviation will be.
>
> Comment, advise, please.
>
> BTW I bought my wing kit in spring/summer of 91.
>
> Chris.
> RV-6 #21390
>
>
Humm, I wouldn't worry about that difference. The plans can shrink, the
original could have shrunk. Now, if you said that there was a 1" difference,
I'd get worried...
Matt Dralle
RV-4 Someday...
Chris S., I got your email and I'll respond soon.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
Text item: Text_1
Has anyone got a fix on the number of RV's that are flying to date?
I've lost track a few years back, It was easy when there were only 34
RV-6's in the air? A break down of 3's, 4's, & 6's would be cool.
Another thing I wonder about is how many 6A's started out as 6's and
vise versa... I know a couple people have opted for that extra 15 lbs
in the nose (I can't figure out why)
Chris.
RV-6(F) #21390
San Jose, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Doug Has Questions... |
>
> Matt,
>
> How can someone sign up for the RV mailer? Can we cross post to a compuserve
> address?
To be added to the rv-list mailing list, all you have to do is send a reqest to
"rv-list-request(at)matronics.com" asking to be added.
What do you mean by "cross post" exactly?? I don't think I mind...
>
> Also, I attended the RV forum in Frederick and someone asked if there was a
> bulletin bd or ??? for RV builders. How about writting to Ken Scott at Van's
> and post how to get a hold of you. I would do it but you are the "Chief" of
> the RV mailer, and doing a VERY good job bytheway.
>
This is a great idea! I will send a message off to Ken this week. I guess
Van's isn't on the Internet just yet, aye?? Too bad! :-)
> Thanks
>
> Doug doug(at)ksr.com
>
Matt Dralle
Matronics
RV-4 Builder
dralle(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
| Subject: | Visited a couple of builders in New England. |
Howdy,
Saw two RV projects this weekend. Gary Batteler, RV-6A Westboro, MA;
Mike Henning RV-4, Nashua, NH.
Gary I met two years ago at the RV forum in Frederick Md is
almost complete. Excellent workmanship... He estimates being
in the air August. It is a very nice RV, some good tricks in
building were improvised by Gary, ie. using automotive style fuses
in a panel which swings down from below the passengers side of the
instrument panel. Also Gary has progressed swiftly and his plane is ever
so clean, a really good job. Gary is a contributer to the rv mailer.
Mike, I just met at a Shopping Mall in Nasuha NH. His EAA
chapter was having a chapter Mall show. Mike had transported
his completed wings and empenage to the mall. A crowd was gathered
around him. His workmanship was again excellent, (I guess New Englanders
are not just master craftsmen with wood). Mike did a great show and tell.
He let folks get involved, they dimpled and riveted two small pieces of
aluminum and gave them to the folks. Very effective.
Your man in the air and currently on the ground in Waltham, Mass
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6
ps I attended Sun 'n Fun. ~105 RV's showed up, Heck even Van had a smile.
:^)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
I'm going on vacation this week, heading to Nashville on Wednesday (4/27),
will be there Thru Friday, then probably down to Miami and the Keys, etc.
for a couple of days. I'd like to visit builders along the way if anyone's
interested. E-mail me if you want to meet and talk RVs.
Randall
randall(at)edt.com
RV-6, getting ready to start fitting wing skins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Doug Has Questions... |
>
> This is a great idea! I will send a message off to Ken this week. I guess
> Van's isn't on the Internet just yet, aye?? Too bad! :-)
>
I've thought about this in the past, trying to figure a way to get them
hooked in to the RV-list without having to sign up for internet, since
I doubt Van would want to spring for an internet account. I'm not calling him
cheap, but he usually likes to have a pretty good reason for something before
spending moeny on it. Since it's a local phone call to Van's from here, I was
thinking I might ask Ken if he'd be interested in some sort of e-mail
forwarding arrangement to and from here from their DOS system over a modem.
Does anyone have any suggestions of how that might be automated?
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
(8.6.4/SMI-4.1)
Hello,
My name is Cheryl Sanchez and I have just joined the RV mailing
list. I am building an RV-3 which I have been working on for the last
couple of years. Progess has been slow but the more I get done the
more I want to spend time on it to get it done. Starting out I had no
experience working with metal and almost none with any tools. However,
I started by working with some scrap aluminum a friend gave me and learned
how to drill and rivet.
Most of the work on the tail kit is complete. It's probably 80%
finished. The main wing spar is 99% complete and I expect to prime it
this coming weekend. I have a friend who is an aircraft mechanic who
has a fancy pneumatic rivit machine we will use to set the 3/16" rivets.
I chose to taper the spar cap strips for the weight savings. On the
RV-3 none of the spar or fuselage bulkhead holes are pre-drilled so
I did that on our drill press. I have also cut all the lightening
holes in the wing ribs and deburred them. As soon as I rivet the main
spar I will build the rear spars and then start putting one of the
wings together.
I have been flying since I was in high school and got my
pilots license in 1984. A few years later I bought a Cessna 152.
I kept that for a while and traded it for a 172. In 1987 I got my
instrument rating. I sold the Cessna just before I started working
on the RV-3. I have also done a bit of aerobatics that I really
enjoyed. In choosing a plane to build the ability to do some
aerobatics was a requirement. So was performance and cost. The
RV-3 seems to fit quite well with the kind of plane I want.
I live in Westford, MA, which is where I am building the
plane. I would be interested in meeting other builders who live in
this area.
Cheryl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt G. Dralle 510-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: Doug Has Questions... |
> Subject: Re: Doug Has Questions...
> >
> > This is a great idea! I will send a message off to Ken this week. I guess
> > Van's isn't on the Internet just yet, aye?? Too bad! :-)
> >
>
> I've thought about this in the past, trying to figure a way to get them
> hooked in to the RV-list without having to sign up for internet, since
> I doubt Van would want to spring for an internet account. I'm not calling him
> cheap, but he usually likes to have a pretty good reason for something before
> spending moeny on it. Since it's a local phone call to Van's from here, I was
> thinking I might ask Ken if he'd be interested in some sort of e-mail
> forwarding arrangement to and from here from their DOS system over a modem.
> Does anyone have any suggestions of how that might be automated?
>
> Randall
>
I would suppose that VAN's could get a UUCP feed from somewhere, but this type
of setup would require some expertise in computing that they probably don't
have, or want to bother with - I could be wrong. I have toyed with the idea of
giving them a dialin account on the Matronics.com machine where they could read
the mail as necessary. I don't know what they'd be interested in.
I will post something soon on the new Matronics BBS system, that has a special
forum just for RV builders. This might be an option.
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mor374(at)ccmime.its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Doug Has Questions... |
>Subject: Re: Doug Has Questions...
>Author: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) at ccmime
>Date: 26/4/94 3:59 AM
>>
>> This is a great idea! I will send a message off to Ken this week. I guess
>> Van's isn't on the Internet just yet, aye?? Too bad! :-)
>>
>I've thought about this in the past, trying to figure a way to get them
>hooked in to the RV-list without having to sign up for internet, since
>I doubt Van would want to spring for an internet account. I'm not calling him
>cheap, but he usually likes to have a pretty good reason for something before
>spending moeny on it. Since it's a local phone call to Van's from here, I was
>thinking I might ask Ken if he'd be interested in some sort of e-mail
>forwarding arrangement to and from here from their DOS system over a modem.
>Does anyone have any suggestions of how that might be automated?
Hi Randall,
Do you run SLIP on your site LAN?? Is there a Terminal server on the LAN? If
you do then I would suggest a Dialup Slip Connection from Vans to your Host. AllVans
would need is an account on you Mail Host and some software for his PC.
A
Good FREE software package I use is WINQVT. Its a Shareware package that I wouldbe
happy to Email to you preconfigured for Van's use.
Regards
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Where Abouts of Quent Johnson??? |
Does anyone know anything about Quent Johnson?? His email address doesn't
work anymore and causes email bounces. I am removing his name from the
list until it can be fixed. I have a couple of phone numbers for him, but as
yet have not been able to contact him.
Any help you might be able to lend you be apperciated.
Matt Dralle
RV-4
rv-list-owner(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | New RV FORUM on the Matronics BBS System... |
Hello everyone,
I have added a new RV FORUM on the Matroincs BBS system. This Forum is similar
to the RV-LIST except that is is in a BBS format instead of the usual Internet
email format.
Uses will have full access to the BBS system, and may send email to other
members on the BBS as well as upload and download files such as graphics images
of their project. I have uploaded a number of TIFF images of my RV-4 already.
Please spread the word about the BBS system; the more people that know about it,
the more successful it will become. Currently, there is no way to cross post
from the rv-list(at)matroincs.com Internet list to the BBS, but this is planned in
the future. Also, Internet email access from the BBS is planned for the near
future.
To access the Matronics BBS system, follow these steps:
1) Set your terminal to 8 bits, no parity, 1 stop bit, 14400 baud max.
2) Set your terminal type to "PC/ANSI" if possible. There are colorful
graphics that show best when using this type of theminal.
3) Dial 1-510-606-6281.
4) Carefully login the first time being careful to answer all of the
registration questions.
5) Once on the BBS system and at the Main Menu, select the "Join a NEW FORUM"
option, followed by the "VAN'S RV DISCUSSIONS" Forum, Number "1". The
default Forum is the "Matronics Customer Center" and will be of limited
interest to RV builders.
6) You may send email to other users on the system, and upload and download
files as desired.
Any and all suggestions on the BBS system would be greatly apperciated. You
may send them to me either on the BBS system or to my Internet address,
"dralle(at)matronics.com".
Please pass the word about the new system. It takes users to make a BBS system
like this successful.
Matt Dralle
Matronics
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt G. Dralle 510-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Another Test - Please Ignore... |
Again, sorry.
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Internet Access for Van's (was Re: Doug Has Questions...) |
>>
>> This is a great idea! I will send a message off to Ken this week. I guess
>> Van's isn't on the Internet just yet, aye?? Too bad! :-)
>>
>I've thought about this in the past, trying to figure a way to get them
>hooked in to the RV-list without having to sign up for internet, since
>I doubt Van would want to spring for an internet account. I'm not calling him
>cheap, but he usually likes to have a pretty good reason for something before
>spending moeny on it. Since it's a local phone call to Van's from here, I was
>thinking I might ask Ken if he'd be interested in some sort of e-mail
>forwarding arrangement to and from here from their DOS system over a modem.
>Does anyone have any suggestions of how that might be automated?
>
Well after getting quite a few responses to this and talking to various folks
it looks like there are cheap enough alternatives that if they really want
to they could get an internet connection of their own for not much money.
Which would be fine with me as I wouldn't have to hassle with administering
some extra mail network or worry about what my bosses think of it. So I plan
to work with Brent to see if they'd want to do it, and help them set it up if
they do. In the meantime, thanks everyone for your suggestions, and I'll keep
you posted.
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: Internet Access for Van's (was Re: Doug Has Questions...) |
> >> This is a great idea! I will send a message off to Ken this week. I guess
> >> Van's isn't on the Internet just yet, aye?? Too bad! :-)
> >>
> >I've thought about this in the past, trying to figure a way to get them
> >hooked in to the RV-list without having to sign up for internet, since
> >I doubt Van would want to spring for an internet account. I'm not calling him
> >cheap, but he usually likes to have a pretty good reason for something before
> >spending moeny on it. Since it's a local phone call to Van's from here, I was
> >thinking I might ask Ken if he'd be interested in some sort of e-mail
> >forwarding arrangement to and from here from their DOS system over a modem.
> >Does anyone have any suggestions of how that might be automated?
> >
>
> Well after getting quite a few responses to this and talking to various folks
> it looks like there are cheap enough alternatives that if they really want
> to they could get an internet connection of their own for not much money.
> Which would be fine with me as I wouldn't have to hassle with administering
> some extra mail network or worry about what my bosses think of it. So I plan
> to work with Brent to see if they'd want to do it, and help them set it up if
> they do. In the meantime, thanks everyone for your suggestions, and I'll keep
> you posted.
>
> Randall
>
>
Hum, I guess you need to define "cheap" for me. I pay about $22/month for
my UUCP connection - that's cheap. What kind of costs are you seeing for full
blown Internet connections? Speeds?
Thanks,
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ward9(at)llnl.gov (Richard S. Ward) |
| Subject: | Re: Internet Access for Van's (was Re: Doug Has Questions...) |
>
>Hum, I guess you need to define "cheap" for me. I pay about $22/month for
>my UUCP connection - that's cheap. What kind of costs are you seeing for full
>blown Internet connections? Speeds?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Matt
My private netcom.com account is $18.00 per month and that include 5 meg
of free disk storage. Baud rate is 14.4kbaud. They offer a private slip
account for $25 or so.
-- Rich
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mag(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re: New RV FORUM on the Matronics BBS System... |
Matt:
Good luck with the new BBS. I tried to start one about 2 years ago, but
could never generate enough users to reach critical mass. Being right
here in Van's back yard, I even had a forum through which people could
ask questions directly of Van. One of his employees would log in each
morning and download the questions, uploading the answers that evening.
The biggest problem with the BBS seemed to be the long-distance phone
charges. People were reluctant to use the board fearing (rightly so)
that there'd be nothing usefull accomplished for their "nickel."
If the BBS were available via the Internet, that might help generate a
critical mass of users.
Good Luck,
Michael
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
| Subject: | Cheryl Sanchez's RV-3 |
Howdy,
I visited the newest member of our group, Cheryl Sanchez
sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com last evening April 27.
Cheryl lives ~35 N. of Boston near Westford, MA. Been working
on the plane for over a year, but a house move has slower her down
somewhat. But, in the trade off of moving she now has a heated, insulated,
well lit aircraft factory (where the homebuilder had mistakenly placed
a garage, tsk tsk).
Cheryl has completed the horizonal stab. riveted the frame work for the
verticle stab, and is mostly complete (sans riveting to the spar) the
elevator and rudders. She also is ready to rivet her wing spars. Now
to get to this point is a much bigger deal than it is for us RV-4,6,6A
builders. She, as other RV-3ers, had to lay out the wing spar, taper
the flanges, drill the lightening holes, corrosion proof it and rivet it.
Pretty much what a NON-phlogiston spar is like. The big, make that BIG
difference is she had to drill ALL of the rivet holes, and bolt holes.
The problem is not only do you have to drill the holes but they have to be
reamed out, and it has to be right the first time out...
She did a GOOD job!!! Her workman ship is excellent, her flush rivets
really are.
Folks, Welcome her to the group she'll make a good addition.
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
suscribe rv-list gil(at)rassp.hac.com
---
Gil Alexander - Information Super Highway Address
| Internet : gil(at)rassp.hac.com
Hughes Aircraft Company | UUCP : ..!usc!hac2arpa!rassp!gil
Bldg R01 M/S B505 | Voice : (310) 334-7840
PO Box 92426 | RASSP Hot Line: (310) 334-5404
Los Angeles, CA 90009 | RASSP Fax : (310) 334-1672
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | I sure hope they fit! |
For any of you local RVators that may be interested, we will be plugging-in my
wings for the first time, saturday between 12-4 pm. Come on out to my house if
you want to see this momentous occasion (momentous for me, at least)!
By the way, Doug Minor came-out a couple times to help rivet my wing bottom
skins on. We learned that if your wings are in a leading-edge-down position, it
is easy to rivet the complete bottom skins on without any pop rivets (as long as
you start with the right locations). It only took 3hrs 20 mins to do a whole
wing bottom, start to finish. My wings had been in storage for 2 years, so I
didn't even get to use the tip of leaving-out the wing-walk ribs.
I helped Brent anderson do one of his RV-4 wings a while back. It was in the
jig, nose-up, and access was much more difficult.
don wentz, RV-6 N790DW 180hp (almost done?)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re: I sure hope they fit! |
>We learned that if your wings are in a leading-edge-down position, it
>is easy to rivet the complete bottom skins on without any pop rivets (as long
>as you start with the right locations). My wings had been in storage for 2
>years, so I didn't even get to use the tip of leaving-out the wing-walk ribs.
>I helped Brent anderson do one of his RV-4 wings a while back. It was in the
>jig, nose-up, and access was much more difficult.
Riveting the bottom skins on with the "leaving out the wing-walk ribs" method is
just as easy leading edge up as leading edge down, so you can do it in the jig.
However, if you are going to have to turn your wing leading edge down to rivet
the bottom, plan to fit your aileron and flap that way too. While this can be
done just as well in the jig, it is much easier the other way. If anybody is
interested in Don's riveting sequence, let me know and I will write it up for
you.
frank(at)SSD.intel.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Wow, That's A Bunch Of New Members... |
Hello everyone!
Some have you may have seen the recent posting in Rec.Aviation.Hombuilt about
the RV-LIST. That posting has spurred no less than 17 new members already!
The total member count now stands at 59! This is just great, as the more
members we have on the list, the more expertise there is to draw from when we
all encounter those next to impossible problems.
But don't feel like you have to have a problem to post the the list. Just
about everyone likes to hear about the current progress on your project, and
maybe something you've learned.
I hope to see a lot of activity on the list - the information exchange is
always most interesting!
Happy Building!
Matt Dralle
RV-4 Plans #1763.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carl Gaddis <cgaddis(at)dw3f.ess.harris.com> |
Hello fellow RV-ers,
My name is Carl Gaddis. I live in Melbourne, FL. I started building an
RV-6 in my garage in Sept. '93. I have completed both stabilizers and
half the rudder. My wings will arrive in July.
It has been a very educational experience. I managed to screw up a few
times and had to order new parts, but my quality is improving. The
vertical stabilizer turned out much better than the horizontal stabilizer.
My wife is getting pretty good at using a rivet gun.
Anyhow, it is nice to meet all of you.
Carl Gaddis RV-6
AOPA, EAA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Controll surface rivet tool. |
For those of you that have not started/completed you empenage controll
surfaces, I have a simple tool that makes the riveting of the trailing edge
stifeners much easer. I made mine from .250" X 2.5" steel plate. This is
well worth the time and effort. Anybody in the SF bay aera that wants to
borrow mine is welcome. I live in the Milpitas area.
Dwg. (sorta') below. If you have access to FrameMaker, I can send you a
better Dwg.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
XXX |<- 6"->|
- ----------------------------------
| |O \
3" | \ <---- Angle not to scale
| | \
_ |o_____________________________________\
BBBBB R
|<---------------18"------------------->|
The tapered end fits into the trailing edge of the skin and is used as
a rivet set ( back rivet ) indicated with a "R". The square end is supported
by a 3/8" block of wood "BBBBB" on your work surface. Use a hammer to set
the rivets by striking at the point market XXX.
I have also put two countersunk holes (#40 & #30) in the square end to
use as a diple tool. This works great for the last two or three rivets in
the tip end of the controll surfaces.
____________________________________________________________________________
| |
| ( ) |
| ( ) ( ) Chris Ruble |
| /\ )( ) I want my new RV! cruble(at)cisco.com |
| / \) /\ ) ) / Piper PA-28-180 |
| / \/ \ ) __|__ N8085W |
|/ \ \ _____(o)_____ Shelter 92, SJC |
|________\___\___!_ ! _!_____________________________________________________|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: I sure hope they fit! |
I'm interested in any wing completion techniques. I just finished up my
Ailerons this past week and plan to fit them and the flaps to the wing assemble
next. I put a one piece top skin on my RV-6 wings so the bottom skins are yet
to be attached. And yes, I have already riveted my wing walk ribs in place.
Chris.
RV-6 #21390
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: I sure hope they fit!
Date: 4/29/94 3:55 PM
>We learned that if your wings are in a leading-edge-down position, it
>is easy to rivet the complete bottom skins on without any pop rivets (as long
>as you start with the right locations). My wings had been in storage for 2
>years, so I didn't even get to use the tip of leaving-out the wing-walk ribs.
>I helped Brent anderson do one of his RV-4 wings a while back. It was in the
>jig, nose-up, and access was much more difficult.
Riveting the bottom skins on with the "leaving out the wing-walk ribs" method is
just as easy leading edge up as leading edge down, so you can do it in the jig.
However, if you are going to have to turn your wing leading edge down to rivet
the bottom, plan to fit your aileron and flap that way too. While this can be
done just as well in the jig, it is much easier the other way. If anybody is
interested in Don's riveting sequence, let me know and I will write it up for
you.
frank(at)SSD.intel.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ERNST(at)UIPHYA.PHYSICS.UIUC.EDU |
I have just joined the RV builders' list, and am in the very early stages
of work on an RV-6A. I have the plans set (#23205) and just took a
metalworking workshop given by -6A builder John Shoemaker (very informative
class). I'm currently shopping for tools and planning my shop. It seems
as though both Avery and Cleaveland offer high-quality tools aimed at
RV builders, and I will probably go with them for riveting tools. Other
tools, though, appear to be available from other suppliers at lower
prices (and perhaps acceptably lower quality). I'm going to Oshkosh
this year, and am curious as to what bargains are available (especially
from Avery and Cleaveland).
I look forward to hearing what other RV builders have to say.
Rick Ernst ernst(at)uiphya.physics.uiuc.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Hi folks,
My name is Gil Alexander, and I am building an RV6A, s/n 20701,
in my 2-car garage. I have completed the tail section and both wings,
except for one fuel tank. I just received my fuselage kit a couple of
weeks ago, and already have a jig from another RV6 builder.
I live in Los Angeles near Marina del Rey, and we have a small, but
active, local RV builders group in the LA basin area. I am also a member
of EAA chapter 40 in Van Nuys. I am an Electronics Engineer, CAD Tool
User/Developer by profession. My progress sometimes seems slow, but at
least it is usually positive progress!
I have 300 hrs. power flying, mostly from 70's, but have about 750
hrs. in sailplanes. I built a 42 ft. span wooden sailplane in 1977 (a BJ1b
Duster), and re-finished the fuselage and tail surfaces of my present
sailplane, a fibreglass Schemmp-Hirth Mini-Nimbus in 1987. Have my three
diamonds, and was very interested to talk to Van and find out that he has a
HP18 sailplane (all metal, of course!!) that he aerotows from his strip.
Summertime glider flying takes away some of my building time, and I seem to
make more progress over winters.
I used my previous homebuilding experience to qualify for the work
experience portion of my FAA Airframe Mechanics rating, and recieved an "A"
(not an "A&P") ticket last November. If any of you want to go this route,
just log your building hours, and have an A&P sign a letter attesting to
the reasonabless of the hours.
My phone numbers are:
310-391-4029 home
310-334-7840 work
and my e-mail address is:- gil(at)rassp.hac.com
Good building ....... Gil A.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Hi everyone. I just joined the list, so here is a quick rundown on me and
my project.
I am building an RV-6 (#23490). I have uncrated the empannage kit, and
today ordered mega $$$ worth of tools from Bob Avery. I figure that this
is going to be a long project (no kidding) so I decided to purchase a
fairly large tool inventory to make life easier. I have tentatively begun
rounding the edges of my horizontal stab rear spar flanges, so I can say
that, YES I have officially begun building!
My background is in electrical engineering, I am a recent (80 hrs) PP-ASEL
and this is my first homebuilt. I was involved with scale RC aircraft for
a number of years prior to starting my RV-6. I live in Winnipeg, Canada,
and if anyone on the list is building an RV in the area and needs a hand
just drop me a line.
I spoke with Bob Avery today regarding primer. Obviously Zinc Chromate is
the simplest way to go but I think I would prefer something a bit newer,
like an epoxy primer. Bob recommended DuPont Variprime (sp?) which is a 2
part epoxy, self etching primer. I am also wondering what kind of cleaner
or solvent to use prior to priming. Is Varsol OK?. How about this allodine
stuff? Is it worth the hassle? I would like to be thorough and prime
everything, but is it a waste of time priming the Alclad parts? WIll it add
20 lbs to my empty weight?
Cheers,
Curt Reimer
creimer(at)mbnet.mb.ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Baines <bill(at)nickel.ucs.sfu.ca> |
| Subject: | My RV progress and screwups so far... |
Well this is the first 'progress post' to the list. I don't think that I have posted
here since late December.
I did a lot of talking before xmas, visited a couple of RV owners/builders and
shopped for tools. Under the Xmas tree was a shiny new 25 Gal Sears compressor,
and
a Craftsman air drill, so the challange was set. (Or, there was support and a
vote of confidence from my better half -- I suppose.)
Just before Xmas I ordered plans, but didn't order empennage -- but instead asked
if they had any empennage kits in stock. Nine sets were in stock. Between Xmas
and
New Years I sent a money order. In the first week of January I phoned Vans and
asked
if it had been shipped yet. "Not 'till jan 15th" they replied. All nine sets had
been sold in a little more than a week...!
I spent a lot of time building the Jig and getting tools. I bought a 4X rivet gun
locally at a discount price from an industrial supply place who thought they
could sell them as high quality ZIP guns. Works OK with a high quality air valve
to
restrict the airflow, but it will be too heavy for the -3 rivets. Fine for the
-4
rivets so far.
I bought a set of US Tool rivet sets and springs from a local supplier. The -4
snap
tends to leave a smile on the rivet. Close inspection reveals a sharp edge on one
side of
the snap. Duct tape fixes that, but I will probably pick up an Avery set sometime
soon.
Sears/Crafstman Air drill (Chicago Pneumatic copy) works fine although a
trigger with a bit more 'feather' would be nice. I picked up several 6" drill bits
from Boeing surplus. I had not used 6" bits before, but I like them and will use
them
as often as possible from now on. Easier to get holes lined up and accurate.
Also purchased from Boeing Surplus:
2 machine countersinks ($5 each) -- had to dig around for good ones.
One is
essentially new.
Quick change chuck ($5)
Countersink cutters (.50 each) interesting that the newer looking -3
100
degree cutter doesn't do a good job. I think that the angle is too big
--
which might explain why it was new and in surplus. One cutter is 'right
on'
and does a great job.
Quick change rivet gun springs (.50 each) -- brand new! but about .050"
too
small to fit on the rivet gun! They are in the trash now...
Cleco pliers (.50) -- Taiwan copies, but dug around and found a couple
in
pretty good shape.
(Lots of good stuff a boeing surplus, but take a micrometer with you and measure
the cheap things that look new :-))
Other tools:
Low cost 1" belt sander. Haven't used this as much as I thought I would, but it
did
help round the HS spar stiffeners.
6" Grinder with a Scotchbrite wheel from Vans. This thing is great! Used lots,
works
great.
Lots of "C" Clamps -- mostly small ones.
Touchup spray gun for primer. Presently using Stitts epoxy but will probably do
the rest of the aircraft with Super Koroporon (sp?). Stitts $cdn 85.00 /qt with
reducer
etc. Super Koroporon is about $cdn 120.00 for a 2 gallon kit. I have been using
acetone
and laquer thinner for cleaning before priming. I am priming everything, except
the outside clad surfaces which will be painted properly on completion.
RV Progress:
============
I have about 75 construction hours logged including the Jig. The RH HS Skin is
completely
fitted, drilled and countersunk. The LH skin is being fitted now.
I made a pretty significant mistake that took time to correct. After working hours
on
roundinng and smoothing the edges of the HS stiffeners, I installed and bucked
-6 rivets
instead of -7 rivets. They looked OK to me but the shop head was a bit on the small
side.
After I discovered my mistake (i.e. when I went looking for -6 rivets and discovered
that
bag was already opened) I got out the trusty old FAA 4313 manual and looked for
guidance.
Basically the unbucked rivet should protrude 1.5 diameters before bucking. A -6
rivet is
.032" short, and a -7 rivet is .032" longer than 1.5 diameters. I contacted Vans
and
offered 4 alternatives for advice:
1) drill out and replace the rivets.
2) drill out and replace with oversize (5/32) rivets
3) ignore it
4) throw it away and start over with new parts.
They asked which way I had installed the rivets -- i.e. the proper way was with
the
factory head against the sheet aluminum web. They said that the factory head should
be
against the thinest material. I had put them in the other way around. It turns
out that
most people put them in the other way around because the factory heads are visible.
If I
had put them in properly, then -6 length rivets would probably have been OK.
My decision was to try to drill out the rivets, and if it went badly, replace all
with
5/32 rivets and if that went badly, order new pieces from Vans. (I was trying to
avoid
rounding those stiffener edges again...)
I succeeded drilling out all the rivets, and only slightly damaged 3 holes which
I
enlarged and fit with 5/32 rivets. I had primed the stiffeners before riveting
them the
first time, so I used the presence/absence of primer in the hole as an indication
if the
hole had been damaged.
Its gone slower than I had hopped, but I am working full time, and trying to put
in
sufficient part time hours working for a nearby Avionics shop to satisfy the MOT
(Canadian FAA) that I am current and deserve to have my AME (FAA A&P) licences
back. I
big bunch of Bell 212 Helicopters went through destined for UN contracts in Somalia,
so a
lot of potential RV hours were diverted :-( to midnight helicopter maintenance.
The little airport I am working part time at has 3 RV's and one that visits from
time to
time, so every now an then I get goosebump encouragement as one takes to the air.
Bill
RV4 (Plans #3684)
---
Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support,
Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Curt, good approach on your tools. Amazing how many of us builders have built
RC airplanes at one time or another. I think we have put possibly too much
effort into primers, but, just stay away from automotive stuff.
don wentz, RV-6 20369
Hi everyone. I just joined the list, so here is a quick rundown on me and
my project.
I am building an RV-6 (#23490). I have uncrated the empannage kit, and
today ordered mega $$$ worth of tools from Bob Avery. I figure that this
is going to be a long project (no kidding) so I decided to purchase a
fairly large tool inventory to make life easier. I have tentatively begun
rounding the edges of my horizontal stab rear spar flanges, so I can say
that, YES I have officially begun building!
My background is in electrical engineering, I am a recent (80 hrs) PP-ASEL
and this is my first homebuilt. I was involved with scale RC aircraft for
a number of years prior to starting my RV-6. I live in Winnipeg, Canada,
and if anyone on the list is building an RV in the area and needs a hand
just drop me a line.
I spoke with Bob Avery today regarding primer. Obviously Zinc Chromate is
the simplest way to go but I think I would prefer something a bit newer,
like an epoxy primer. Bob recommended DuPont Variprime (sp?) which is a 2
part epoxy, self etching primer. I am also wondering what kind of cleaner
or solvent to use prior to priming. Is Varsol OK?. How about this allodine
stuff? Is it worth the hassle? I would like to be thorough and prime
everything, but is it a waste of time priming the Alclad parts? WIll it add
20 lbs to my empty weight?
Cheers,
Curt Reimer
creimer(at)mbnet.mb.ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
matronics.com!SSD.intel.com!frank(at)netcom.com
| Subject: | I sure hope they fit! -- Update |
Well, Ken Scott, Mike Wilson, Rion Bourgois, Brent Ohlgren, and Doug Minor all
showed-up for the 'big event'.
Ken's expertise made everything go relatively smoothly and they plugged right
in! I Recommend that you CAREFULLY determine which steel center straps go what
way and clearly mark them. I initially had them mixed-up and it mad the bolts
not fit well. Once Ken marked them correctly (you should be able to read the
inscribed notations on them when installed, ie. 'top aft', 'top fwd', etc.) the
main wing bolts went-in almost by hand! Very little 'persuasion' required. The
rear-spar attach points fit too, which I had been really concerned about.
So now I have a "whole" airplane sitting in the garage. What a sight!!!! It's
amazing how all those little pieces just keep getting bigger and bigger. Take
heart you new builders, it gets there eventually.
Welcome to all the new RV-LIST members, hope we can help.
BTW, I will be in San Jose next week and it looks like I will have Tuesday
evening (5/10) free. I would love to stop in on a project or two in the area,
if we can set it up.
don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Rivet dimensions |
To all RV riveters,
I just read bill Bill Baines posting, and decided to go
to the authoritative source for rivet dimensions. It's the Military
Specification created by the US Army for use by all DoD agencies.
MIL-R-47196A RIVETS, BUCK TYPE, PREPARATION AND INSTALLATION OF
What is interesting about this document is that while we aim for a
0.5 D high ( D is the basic rivet diameter), and a 1.5 D diam. formed
(driven) head, the Military gives exact acceptable limits. If it meets
these limits, it's good enough for a fighter, then it should be good enough
to be structurally sound on our RVs.
For 3/32 rivets
0.5 D = 0.047 inches --- Mil Spec min. height = 0.038 inches
1.5 D = 0.140 inches --- Mil Spec min. diam. = 0.122 inches
For 1/8 rivets
0.5 D = 0.063 inches --- Mil Spec min. height = 0.050 inches
1.5 D = 0.188 inches --- Mil Spec min. diam. = 0.163 inches
For 3/16 rivets
0.5 D = 0.094 inches --- Mil Spec min. height = 0.075 inches
1.5 D = 0.281 inches --- Mil Spec min. diam. = 0.244 inches
One other interesting item came up that I have not seen quoted
anywhere else, there is a MAXIMUM height for the driven head! I am not
sure of the reasoning for this, but they are:
3/32 max ht 0.050 inches
1/8 max ht 0.070 inches
3/16 max ht 0.105 inches
So fellow RV builders, aim for 0.5 D/1.5 D diven rivet heads,
but don't rework them unless they fall outside of the tolerances quoted
above. These tolerances are quite large, and I have a feeling Van knows
this when he gave the Option 3 to Bill "ignore it".
Another interesting Mil Spec requirement is that wet Zinc
Chromate to spec. TT-P-1757 (most aircraft type zinc chromates) must be
used when two dissimilar metals are being riveted (coat the rivet,
countersink, and the hole and rivet while wet). On an RV this is the case
where 4130 steel brackets are being attached to Alum. structures ..... so
use that zinc chromate wet when you rivet these parts!!!!!
Hope this helps everyone .... good building .... Gil A.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu (Randy S. McCallister) |
Hi fellow RV builders,
I guess all new builders tend to concentrate on the way they do their
rivets. I doubt anyone gets every rivet exactly by the mil spec...though
we all try. I get a rush when I see just the right shop head. (Okay, its
been a slow life). I have found that using the little rivet accessories
that Avery sells to measure height of the rivet, roundness of shop head,
etc. gives me something to shoot for. I am finding that for each piece of
the tail section I do, I end up replacing from a quarter to a third of all
rivets. Is this normal? I squeeze whenever possible rather than hammer. I
think I have greater control using this method. I find I have the most
successful rivets when I measure the rivet in the material. If the rivet
needs trimming to get it to match the -4 height of my Avery gauge then I
cut the material off of the rivet to get the height specification. It gets
strange when I just have to shave a fraction of an inch. I usually do this
by using my one inch belt sander. I try not to heat the rivet too much but
I am really not sure this is an acceptable practice? If I don't take that
fraction of an inch off of the rivet before I squeeze then invariably the
rivet wants to bend.
Anyone have suggestions?
Thanks -Randy
****************************************************************
Randy S. McCallister, Telecommunications Senior Engineer
Installation and Repair Supervisor, Radford University
rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu
Phone: 703-831-6227
Fax: 703-831-5893
<<<<
o(0-0)o
+----------------ooO-(_) Ooo---------------+
| "Once you have flown, you will walk the |
| earth with your eyes turned skyward, |
| for there you have been, there you long |
| to return" -- da Vinci |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil |
Rick Ernst wrote:
>It seems as though both Avery and Cleaveland offer
>high-quality tools aimed at RV builders, and I will
>probably go with them for riveting tools. Other
>tools, though, appear to be available from other
>suppliers at lower prices (and perhaps acceptably
>lower quality).
Rick, where are you located?
I confess, I'm a tool scrounger! I've tried to go the
cheapest, best-quality tradeoff route and have learned
some lessons that might be useful to newer builders,
like how not to end up with two sets of squeezers (ouch!).
If anyone's interested, E-mail me direct. I'll either
respond personally or, if there's demand, post my notes
to the list.
Dave Hyde
davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Update: I walked into my shop this morning (at 0430!!)
and saw...A WING! These things keep popping up! Seriously,
both wings are framed up now, and I'll start skinning them
in the very near future.
Update II: My wife got a back-seat hop in an RV-4 at the
Frederick Forum a few weeks ago. I figured the project was
over when they did an aileron roll in sight of the field (with
plenty of altitude) just before coming back into the pattern.
Surprise: SHE LOVED IT! Now you know why I'm in the shop
at 0430!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil |
| Subject: | Primer (again?!) |
>I have tentatively begun rounding the edges of my horizontal
>stab rear spar flanges, so I can say that, YES I have officially
>begun building!
That first swipe of the file is pretty scary, isn't it?
>I spoke with Bob Avery today regarding primer....
>Bob recommended DuPont Variprime (sp?) which is a
>2 part epoxy, self etching primer.
Just for info, this is what I'm using on everything.
>How about this allodine stuff?
I just found out I left my bag at home, so I don't have names,
but can get them... Someone spoke on corrosion control at this
year's Frederick, MD, RV-Forum. He showed test results indicating
that priming alclad parts increased the life by something like a
factor of 10 (that's from memory, don't hold me to it). It
depends a lot on where you keep your airplane. I live on the
Chesapeake Bay (salt/brackish water, high humidity), so I'm
priming everything. I tend to put a heavier coat on the non-
clad stuff, but I don't know if it helps. Sure makes me feel
better, though.
As far as Alodine goes, the same guy mentioned it at Frederick.
He said that you "shouldn't" Alodine parts you were going to
cover with etching primer. After I had nearly wet my pants
thinking of my wing spar flange strips someone asked him what
would happen if you did just this. He explained that it was
no big deal, just that the etchant would 'eat through' (my words,
not his) the alodine into the surface, and then the alodine
wouldn't be doing anything for you. It didn't hurt anything,
but you didn't gain anything by it either.
>but is it a waste of time priming the Alclad parts? WIll it add
>20 lbs to my empty weight?
I would guess (guess!) maybe 10 lb, but it's worth it to me for
the added protection, and also for peace of mind not having to
worry about corrosion on parts I can't easily inspect.
Dave Hyde
davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mor374(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
| Subject: | Project report from Australia |
Hi all,
All this activity on the list has inspired me to send a quick report
of my RV4 project so far. I really envy you guys in the States, it
must be nice to go down to the "local" surplus sale at Boeing for your
tools. Our aircraft industry is very much smaller than yours and there
is no such thing as "Cheap" second hand tools.
Well now to the project so far:-
Tailplane - Totally finished and ready for painting, hanging up on the
workshop wall for inspiration. Its funny, but after having built an RV
elevator trim tab that is the one place I have a real good look at
when I check out somebody else's project. that one part took me about
10 hours of blood, sweat and tears :-).
First wing - Ready for skinning, I will be going home tonight and
starting on the first skin. You seem to spend hours getting the jig
just right but it is worthwhile in the end.
Matt, is there a FTP area on the Matronics host? I was thinking of
scanning a couple of pictures of the project and sending them to you.
How about some of the other guys doing the same?. After all a visit
from some of us guys in OZ is a bit expensive. Don, I really would like to
get a look at your project now that the wings are on.
Happy rivetting
John Morrissey
RV4 (second time around!!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
Hello RV-list,
My name is John Henderson, and I am a new subscriber to this
list. I am a PhD student at Auburn University, Alabama in Electrical
Engineering. My specialization for this degree is numerical
electromagnetics and my specialization for my masters was
microelectronics fabrication. (See--I'm familiar with fabricating in
aluminum. ;) ) I am supported by a NASA Graduate Student Researchers
Program fellowship through Langley Research Center in Hampton, VA.
I completed the last of my class requirements last quarter and am
getting along with my dissertation research. I will tentatively
graduate a year from June. At that time, God willing, I hope to be
gainfully employed. (I am looking for a EE faculty position -- any
connections out there?) I have been interested in homebuilts for several
years, and after years of consideration, I'm 99% convinced that I
will build an RV-6. However, construction can't begin until I'm out of
here -- I'm using the desire of starting construction as an incentive
to come to the office every day and work hard on my research. So,
hopefully, I will begin in a 1-1/2 -- 2 years.
I figure by receiving this distribution, and by reading the RVator
until then, that I can get a LOT of good information BEFORE I begin
anything. In the meantime, I am also looking out for good deals in
used tools. (What's the smallest compressor I can get away with to
power a rivet gun? Are there such things as electric rivet guns?)
In June, I will be attending a conference in Seattle. I hope to
drive down to North Plains for a plant tour and demonstration ride
if Van's is open to that. (Has anybody done this?)
John Henderson
Department of Electrical Engineering
Auburn University
johnh @ eng.auburn.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rivet dimensions |
Gil:
Thanks for the solid information on rivet driving. This is the kind of
stuff I like to include in the RV instructions I am writing.
frank(at)ssd.intel.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Baines <bill(at)nickel.ucs.sfu.ca> |
| Subject: | Small clarification on ...screwups so far... |
Thnaks Gil for the more specific rivet tolerances. I have printed your
message and it is going into my construction log. The note about pounding
wet chromate rivets is a good one. years ago I worked part time in a
seaplane base, and that was standard practise when doing float repairs.
Regarding my posted progress report last night, I think I should clarify...
The 4 alternatives were not recommended by Vans' Staff. I
called, explained my error, and offered 4 alternatives. They
suggested that option 3 would be OK if I had pounded the
rivets in the other way (shop head against the thick material) but even then
they suggested that I contact MOT (our FAA) for advice.
Option 2 (Replace with oversize rivets) would be structurally OK, but again
an MOT contact was recommended.
I chose Option 1, and it turned out OK. I put the rivets in the correct way
the second time around.
Begin forwarded message:
> ... I contacted Vans and offered 4 alternatives for advice:
>
> 1) drill out and replace the rivets.
>
> 2) drill out and replace with oversize (5/32) rivets
>
> 3) ignore it
>
> 4) throw it away and start over with new parts.
>
>
Nice to see the activity on this list.
Bill
---
Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support,
Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu (Randy S. McCallister) |
help
this is a test, please ignore...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
matronics.com!ccm2.hf.intel.com!Don_Wentz(at)netcom.com
| Subject: | Re: I sure hope they fit! -- Update |
Don:
Tuesday night one of our San Jose EAA Chapters (338) will be having it's monthly
meeting in Sunnyvale. We have around 6 RV builders in our group - three are
flying now at least 3 6's are under construction. I can't remember what the
topic will be this month but your welcome to pop in if you like!
Chris.
Treasurer Chapter 338
RV-6(F) #21390
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Welcome to all the new RV-LIST members, hope we can help.
BTW, I will be in San Jose next week and it looks like I will have Tuesday
evening (5/10) free. I would love to stop in on a project or two in the area,
if we can set it up.
don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
| Subject: | More on floating RV's |
Text item: Text_1
I just got off the phone with Eustace Bowhay up in British Colombia,
I'm trying to see how far the float kits have come. He told me they
just about have an RV-4 on floats! He said it would be flying in
about 1 month!! The RV-4's home base is at Lake Tahoe, CA.
His is also working on putting together an RV-6A, He's only building
the nose dragger version so he can use it as a prototype for a
float conversion. Eustace said he may lend the 6A his ^'s floats to
save on development time.
According to Eustace the build time on a set of floats will be about
400 hours. But he is working on a possible fast build float kit that
will come completely drilled - all you would have to do is rivet them
together!!
The Zenair floats are said to look exactly like EDO 1650's.
More later....
Chris.Schulte
RV-6(F) #21390
PS: I wonder what they'll call the nose dragger float plane RV-6AF??
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Project report from Australia |
Hi all,
> All this activity on the list has inspired me to send a quick report
> of my RV4 project so far. I really envy you guys in the States, it
> must be nice to go down to the "local" surplus sale at Boeing for your
> tools. Our aircraft industry is very much smaller than yours and there
> is no such thing as "Cheap" second hand tools.
Don't feel too bad, 'good' tools at Boeing are a rare find, usually clecoe
pliers, drills (dull), and stop cntsinks about it. When you think about it,
since your butt and all the time & $$ are going to depend on what you build,
buying good, quality tools may not be so bad!
> Well now to the project so far:-
> Tailplane - Totally finished and ready for painting, hanging up on the
> workshop wall for inspiration. Its funny, but after having built an RV
> elevator trim tab that is the one place I have a real good look at
> when I check out somebody else's project. that one part took me about
> 10 hours of blood, sweat and tears :-).
Amen brother!
> Matt, is there a FTP area on the Matronics host? I was thinking of
> scanning a couple of pictures of the project and sending them to you.
> How about some of the other guys doing the same?. After all a visit
> from some of us guys in OZ is a bit expensive. Don, I really
> would like to get a look at your project now that the wings are on.
As soon as I get a good photo back, I'll send it in.
Keep up the good work John.
dw
Happy rivetting
John Morrissey
RV4 (second time around!!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | twg(at)blink.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278)) |
Hi all,
My name is Tom Goeddel from Fair Haven, NJ (central NJ, near the shore south
of NY City), and I am building an RV-6A. I've been at it for 630 hours over
the course of 2 years. With small children I only get to put in a little time
here and there, so it's been slow but steady progress. I have the empennage done
(save some of the glass work - I'm glad I'm not building a plastic plane...)
and the left wing is well on its way. I still have to fit the bottom skins
and fabricate control surfaces. The fuel tank is done short of putting on the
cover plate. I'm working out of a one car garage, so space is tight, and
hence, the one-wing-at-a-time sequence. I have been fabricating and priming
parts (using VeriPrime, for what it's worth) for the right wing as I go along
so the second one should go a little quicker. I have the feeling I'm not the
fastest builder in the world, but I'm enjoying every minute of it (well, almost
every minute - you can keep the ProSeal). I'm hoping to have it done in
time to celebrate the 100th aniversary of powered flight :-).
I'd also be interested in thoughts on riveting sequences for the wings - there
seem to be 100 different ways to do it that all manage get the job done.
Another question - does anyone know of a source for smallish colored nav light
lens covers that would fit the front corner of the wing tips? Most Glasairs
I've seen do it this way with the red/green colored lens rather than clear over
a colored light, but I've never seen this done on an RV. Or maybe pointers to
info about moulding plexiglass covers in the oven and then dyeing them? I used
to color model airplane canopies with Rit fabric dye in warm water, but I don't
know if this would work well enough, or produce the politically correct
"aviation red/green" colors.
Many thanks to Doug Bloomberg for introducing me to this list, and to Matt
for running it.
Stop by if any of you are in the area!
Tom Goeddel
t.goeddel(at)att.com
(908) 949-5278 (work)
(908) 842-4387 (play)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Primer (again?! ... more) |
Some further comments on primers ... being a new member, I hope it
doesn't repeat too much previous discussions. If people are interested, I
can post a comparison of different primers I did for our local South bay
RVator a while back. ... just let me know ..... Gil A.
>From: tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil!davehyde(at)matronics.com
>Date: Tue, 3 May 94 08:10:15 EDT
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Primer (again?!)
>
>>I spoke with Bob Avery today regarding primer....
>>Bob recommended DuPont Variprime (sp?) which is a
>>2 part epoxy, self etching primer.
>
>Just for info, this is what I'm using on everything.
I have used Variprime, and it seems pretty good, but I had trouble
getting it to a good spraying consistency with different shop conditions.
I spoke to Van about this, and he says he adds more of the clear part (the
acid) to get a good consistency (there is usually no thinner/reducer
recommended). I am not sure of the advisability of not following the
manufacturer's instructions in this area, especially when it involves a
higher acid level. It is nasty stuff to breathe (I saw an auto. mag. refer
to it as "yellow death"), so take the right precautions. It is NOT an
epoxy product, and will be attacked by various solvents, so be careful what
paint type you spray over it.
>>How about this allodine stuff?
>
> I just found out I left my bag at home, so I don't have names,
>but can get them... Someone spoke on corrosion control at this
>year's Frederick, MD, RV-Forum. He showed test results indicating
>that priming alclad parts increased the life by something like a
>factor of 10 (that's from memory, don't hold me to it). It
>depends a lot on where you keep your airplane. I live on the
>Chesapeake Bay (salt/brackish water, high humidity), so I'm
>priming everything. I tend to put a heavier coat on the non-
>clad stuff, but I don't know if it helps. Sure makes me feel
>better, though.
> As far as Alodine goes, the same guy mentioned it at Frederick.
>He said that you "shouldn't" Alodine parts you were going to
>cover with etching primer. After I had nearly wet my pants
>thinking of my wing spar flange strips someone asked him what
>would happen if you did just this. He explained that it was
>no big deal, just that the etchant would 'eat through' (my words,
>not his) the alodine into the surface, and then the alodine
>wouldn't be doing anything for you. It didn't hurt anything,
>but you didn't gain anything by it either.
The Navy, who has to worry about a far worse corrosion problem than the
rest of us, specifies acid etch, alodine, then epoxy primer. As ststed
above, the alodine seems sort of redundant, but I find when I have my
rubber gloves, face mask etc. on doing an acid etch, then the added time
and work needed to alodine is fairly negligble. Also a well alodined part
looks pretty!! Chemical prices seem cheaper mail order (Alexander Aircraft
- no relation!) than buying at your local auto paint store.
Several of us in the LA area have been using a AKZO two-part epoxy
primer made to a spec. used by McD-D on their DC-10s etc. It's easy to
use, fast drying, and as hard as **** when dry, but is easy to put on too
thick a layer. The important thing is that the paint is well bonded to the
Aluminum, and a good acid etch really helps. I too will feel happier when
I fly my RV6A knowing that the interior parts are primed.
>
>>but is it a waste of time priming the Alclad parts? WIll it add
>>20 lbs to my empty weight?
>
>I would guess (guess!) maybe 10 lb, but it's worth it to me for
>the added protection, and also for peace of mind not having to
>worry about corrosion on parts I can't easily inspect.
Look at the WWII planes being recovered from swamps etc. Their
Alclad, with alodine and a layer of zinc chromate, is usaully in amazing
condition. Sometimes I think that any good paint is OK, compared to no
paint.
The Mil Specs for epoxy primers only call for a minimum thickness of
0.0012 inch on Alclad, and 0.0015 inch on non-Alclad materials for
interior structures. I am not sure how to measure these thickness in our
workshops, but I would guess we are all applying the primers too thick, and
adding more weight than needed. I think that a 0.0015 inch paint layer
will only just about hide the metal surface ... does anyone out there have
more knowledge on this???
>
>Dave Hyde
>davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Lyon, DECwest Engineering" <lyon(at)decwet.enet.dec.com> |
| Subject: | RV-4 builder and new rv-list member |
Hi fellow RV builders and enthusiasts!
I'm Bob Lyon, aviation nut and RV-4 builder. Actually, I purchased RV-4 plans
set #3126 and the empennage kit a little over two years ago. Since then I've
spent mucho bucks in tools (primarily from US Tools and Avery) and generally
procrastinated about getting started. I hope to finally get my garage in order
here soon and begin bucking rivets this summer,
I'm also a PP-ASEL with about 270 hours, 200 of which were logged in the
PA38-112 (Tomahawk) I owned until last August. I couldn't justify (or afford)
building and owning at the same time, so I sold the beast after Arlington(sigh).
I've got a couple hours as a back seater in an RV-4, an hour in the front of a
Pitts S2B, and just took an hour of dual gyro instruction this past weekend.
Some of the mail I've received asks about primers. Having spent the better
part of three years contracted to Boeing projects all around the greater
Seattle area, I figured that might be a good place to find out. I contacted
a friend of mine who works in quality engineering at the Renton plant where the
737s and 757s are assembled. He got me the source and part numbers that Boeing
uses to prime their planes with (I'll get these and post them).
The stuff is a 2 part etching epoxy primer and comes in yellow or green. MEK
can be used for cleanup, but there is a special reducer necessary if thinning
more than 5% by volume. It is expensive (about $100 for a 2 gal kit and 1 gal
of reducer) and it has a limited shelf life (about 2 years), but this stuff is
superb! I've seen an untreated piece of .030 aluminum sheet shot with one coat
of primer, let dry, and bent and practically zero radius with absolutely no
cracking, chipping, or flaking. It is mildly difficult to remove using 150 grit
aluminum oxide sandpaper! Hope this helps ...
Cheers,
Bob Lyon,
lyon(at)zso.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Bellevue, WA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Tom, I know one local builder who did that for his RV-4 and the FAA told
him they were 'not the right color, therefore unapproved'.
Whatever...
dw
>Another question - does anyone know of a source for smallish colored
>nav light
>lens covers that would fit the front corner of the wing tips? Most Glasairs
>I've seen do it this way with the red/green colored lens rather than
>clear over
>a colored light, but I've never seen this done on an RV. Or maybe pointers to
>info about moulding plexiglass covers in the oven and then dyeing
>them? I used
>to color model airplane canopies with Rit fabric dye in warm water,
>but I don't
>know if this would work well enough, or produce the politically correct
>"aviation red/green" colors.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mor374(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
| Subject: | Re: Rivet details |
Hi Randy,
Sounds like you are being a bit "Super critical" of your work. In all
the RV projects I have been involved with so far I have only trimmed
about three or four rivets. If a rivet is too long its harder to drive
straight, the head will tend to drive off centre. Compare your rivets
with the allowable tolerances that were posted earlier and I think you
will be surprised.
Other hints:
Try a heavier bucking bar, I sometimes tape a couple of bars together
to get a greater mass. E.G. I was riveting the top row of flush rivets
on my aileron by using a bit of bent 1" x 1/2" bar stock that I bent
in my trusty bench vice. This bit of steel didn't weigh much so I just
taped a second bar to the handle. It worked very well, and I got a
really nice smooth finish on the outer skin.
When you are using your squeezers, use the smallest yoke that will do
the job. A 4" yoke can be a bit of a Handful because they tend to
distort more than the smaller yokes. Give the squeezer a "a bit of a
wiggle" before you start applying too much pressure so that you are
sure that you have the rivet square between the jaws. All squeezers
seem to have a bit of a 'Sweet spot' so try and centre the rivet in
the jaws.
Keep at it, you will get better!!
John
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Rivet details
Date: 03/5/ 0 9:19 AM
Hi fellow RV builders,
I guess all new builders tend to concentrate on the way they do their
rivets. I doubt anyone gets every rivet exactly by the mil spec...though
we all try. I get a rush when I see just the right shop head. (Okay, its
been a slow life). I have found that using the little rivet accessories
that Avery sells to measure height of the rivet, roundness of shop head,
etc. gives me something to shoot for. I am finding that for each piece of
the tail section I do, I end up replacing from a quarter to a third of all
rivets. Is this normal? I squeeze whenever possible rather than hammer. I
think I have greater control using this method. I find I have the most
successful rivets when I measure the rivet in the material. If the rivet
needs trimming to get it to match the -4 height of my Avery gauge then I
cut the material off of the rivet to get the height specification. It gets
strange when I just have to shave a fraction of an inch. I usually do this
by using my one inch belt sander. I try not to heat the rivet too much but
I am really not sure this is an acceptable practice? If I don't take that
fraction of an inch off of the rivet before I squeeze then invariably the
rivet wants to bend.
Anyone have suggestions?
Thanks -Randy
****************************************************************
Randy S. McCallister, Telecommunications Senior Engineer
Installation and Repair Supervisor, Radford University
rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu
Phone: 703-831-6227
Fax: 703-831-5893
<<<<
o(0-0)o
+----------------ooO-(_) Ooo---------------+
| "Once you have flown, you will walk the |
| earth with your eyes turned skyward, |
| for there you have been, there you long |
| to return" -- da Vinci |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Rivet details |
Randy:
A couple more riveting tips to keep rivets from bending over:
Make sure the work is supported firmly so it doesn't shift or tilt as the hammer
hits it.
Don't force a rivet into a hole; it the holes don't line up drill them out
again. Misalignment causes the rivet to be tilted with respect to the work.
When squeezing round head rivets, push on the head while closing the jaws, then
try to look and see that the other end of the rivet hits in the exact center of
the flat jaw.
Always drill thick material with a drill press so the holes will be
perpendicular.
Use the Avery tool every place possible.
Once you get good at this you will find you can routinely drive slightly
over-length rivets witout ever having them bend over.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu (Randy S. McCallister) |
Thanks to all who responded.
I guess I might have been under an incorrect assumption. I thought it was
better to "squeeze" when possible. I am also realizing some problems with
various squeezer heads. I have both a 1 1/2 and a 3 inch head for my Tatco
squeezer. Bob Avery talked me out of getting anything larger for squeezing
rivets, although I guess they might be handy for dimpling. In using the
larger head, it must be more possible to set up errors unless you are
perfectly plumb with the rivet. I believe this is what I am interpreting
from your replys. I have a 3x gun with lots of really good bucking bars so
I guess I'll try that for a while.
I have a friend that just completed his RV-6 without having a squeezer
period. I just thought he had taken an extra risk doing it that way.
Perhaps not.
Your thoughts and comments are welcome.
Randy McCallister
RV-6 Tailfeathers in hand
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Rivet details |
Very good advice John.
dw
Hi Randy,
Sounds like you are being a bit "Super critical" of your work. In all
the RV projects I have been involved with so far I have only trimmed
about three or four rivets. If a rivet is too long its harder to drive
straight, the head will tend to drive off centre. Compare your rivets
with the allowable tolerances that were posted earlier and I think you
will be surprised.
Other hints:
Try a heavier bucking bar, I sometimes tape a couple of bars together
to get a greater mass. E.G. I was riveting the top row of flush rivets
on my aileron by using a bit of bent 1" x 1/2" bar stock that I bent
in my trusty bench vice. This bit of steel didn't weigh much so I just
taped a second bar to the handle. It worked very well, and I got a
really nice smooth finish on the outer skin.
When you are using your squeezers, use the smallest yoke that will do
the job. A 4" yoke can be a bit of a Handful because they tend to
distort more than the smaller yokes. Give the squeezer a "a bit of a
wiggle" before you start applying too much pressure so that you are
sure that you have the rivet square between the jaws. All squeezers
seem to have a bit of a 'Sweet spot' so try and centre the rivet in
the jaws.
Keep at it, you will get better!!
John
______________________________ Reply Separator _______________________________
__
Subject: Rivet details
Date: 03/5/ 0 9:19 AM
Hi fellow RV builders,
I guess all new builders tend to concentrate on the way they do their
rivets. I doubt anyone gets every rivet exactly by the mil spec...though
we all try. I get a rush when I see just the right shop head. (Okay, its
been a slow life). I have found that using the little rivet accessories
that Avery sells to measure height of the rivet, roundness of shop head,
etc. gives me something to shoot for. I am finding that for each piece of
the tail section I do, I end up replacing from a quarter to a third of all
rivets. Is this normal? I squeeze whenever possible rather than hammer. I
think I have greater control using this method. I find I have the most
successful rivets when I measure the rivet in the material. If the rivet
needs trimming to get it to match the -4 height of my Avery gauge then I
cut the material off of the rivet to get the height specification. It gets
strange when I just have to shave a fraction of an inch. I usually do this
by using my one inch belt sander. I try not to heat the rivet too much but
I am really not sure this is an acceptable practice? If I don't take that
fraction of an inch off of the rivet before I squeeze then invariably the
rivet wants to bend.
Anyone have suggestions?
Thanks -Randy
****************************************************************
Randy S. McCallister, Telecommunications Senior Engineer
Installation and Repair Supervisor, Radford University
rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu
Phone: 703-831-6227
Fax: 703-831-5893
<<<<
o(0-0)o
+----------------ooO-(_) Ooo---------------+
| "Once you have flown, you will walk the |
| earth with your eyes turned skyward, |
| for there you have been, there you long |
| to return" -- da Vinci |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Randy, you're on the right track. Using my Tatco with 3" jaw, I found it very
easy to bend rivets when I squeezed them. I ended-up NOT using it to do 1/8
rivets, rather, whenever possible to use the Avery tool or the gun. Then I was
just very careful when squeezing 3/32 rivets (don't get me wrong, I squeezed
every rivet I could get the jaws to reach, a squeezer does a great job).
I recommend to new builders to just get the 1.5" or maximum 2" jaw. this still
has enough depth to do 90% of the squeezable stuff and is easier to use (it even
costs less!). As for not having any squeezer? I can't imagine dimpling all
those ribs without one.
If I were you, I'd send the 3" back and use the $$ somewhere else (like DJ
Lauritsen Dimple dies). Then learn how to use the Avery tool and the gun for
riveting 1/8" rivets and you'll be set.
don w.
Thanks to all who responded.
I guess I might have been under an incorrect assumption. I thought it was
better to "squeeze" when possible. I am also realizing some problems with
various squeezer heads. I have both a 1 1/2 and a 3 inch head for my Tatco
squeezer. Bob Avery talked me out of getting anything larger for squeezing
rivets, although I guess they might be handy for dimpling. In using the
larger head, it must be more possible to set up errors unless you are
perfectly plumb with the rivet. I believe this is what I am interpreting
from your replys. I have a 3x gun with lots of really good bucking bars so
I guess I'll try that for a while.
I have a friend that just completed his RV-6 without having a squeezer
period. I just thought he had taken an extra risk doing it that way.
Perhaps not.
Your thoughts and comments are welcome.
Randy McCallister
RV-6 Tailfeathers in hand
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave.Bonorden(at)amd.com (Dave Bonorden) |
Hello!
New guy, here. I heard about this list a while ago, but just recently saw it discussed
in rec.av.homebuilt and got the address, etc.
I really enjoyed the recent discussions about riveting and I'm looking forward
to more good stuff on this list.
I've got RV-4 #2652, a much-neglected-of-late project occupying a small part (that's
the first clue about my recent progress) of my garage. I'm almost finished
with the tail (still have to do glass tips and bend the leading edges of the
control surfaces) and the wing kit is waiting. I bought the Phlogistan spar
and it looks beautiful and it looks even better when I think about NOT driving
3/16 rivets and trimming all those flanges. I've been priming all inside surfaces
with variprime. Seems to work great for me. I agree with the guy that
said it sprays best if you mix it on the thin side (err in favor of more acid).
I'll sacrifice 15 lbs to have my airplane last 50 years.
I've wanted an RV since about 1985, but wasn't sure I could build it until I started
helping a friend on his RV-6 (N91CN, Cliff Nunnery) and realized it wasn't
so hard. I still don't think it's hard, but it takes alot more time than I
realized. Of course, I haven`t dealt with proseal or the canopy yet :). For
anyone thinking about starting an RV project, I highly recommend finding a project
in your area and getting some experience working on it. It will be a real
confidence builder.
I've flown with Cliff in the -6 twice with plenty of acro both times. What a plane!
He's got an O-360 with CS prop. I've also bagged rides in Van's -6A proto
and the 2nd RV-4 proto, both at Sun 'n' Fun '91. I'm always looking for more
RV rides!
There's LOTS of RV activity here in Austin, TX, including Mark Frederick's Harmon
Rocket project that I just went and looked at today. This is Mark's 4th RV
project. He's still got his 3rd one, a -4. He kept having people come into
his hangar and offer him big $ for his 3/4 finished projects, so he didn't finish
his first two.
For flying background, I've got commercial, multi, instrument tickets. I just went
over 500 hrs total time 2 weeks ago. I've got about 15 hrs in taildraggers
(J-3 and 7EC). I'm a mission pilot in the Civil Air Patrol and our squadron
safety officer. I'm also an FAA Accident Prevention Counselor. I was a Flight
Test Engineer in the Air Force for a few years and managed to log rides in
an F-15, F-16 and T-38s. The world would be a much better place if everybody
had their own T-38 :).
Looking forward to reading this list!
David Bonorden
6213 Oliver Loving Trail
Austin, TX 78749
(800) 538-8450 x55647
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
To all RV rivet squeezers,
I guess we must all be weaklings in S. Calif.
... I thought this discussion was about PNUEMATIC squeezers!!
I have recommended that all new builders to get a C-yoke
pnuematic squeezer ... buy it used, use it for your project (share it if
possible), then sell it .... it will probably end up costing less than a
new hand squeezer. Cheap (relative of course) yokes can be obtained from
Sid Goldin (ex-Kit Aircraft Tools) in Visalia, CA. -- just mention you are
building a RV. Forget the hand squeezers!!! I don't even have one.
I was lucky enough to have another builder "find" one in a
neighbour's garage (retired aircraft assembly worker!!) for $100, and we
are managing to share this tool over 3 simultaneous RV projects. It's
usually easy to know when you need it, and it's so much quicker, the task
is completed in less than a day, so it's an easy tool to share. Make sure
you have a regular yoke (2 to 3 inch) and a smaller yoke of the type that
uses the yoke itself (not a flat die) to form the shop heads against. I
use this smaller yoke the most, since it gets into tighter spaces, and
can't even remember when I used my 4.5 inch yoke last.
I fully agree with the discussion about 1/8 rivets, even with a
pnuematic squeezer, and much prefer hitting them with the Avery tool, or
using a regular rivet gun, though squeezing late at night is more socially
acceptable!
happy pounding ...... Gil Alexander -- #20701
>Randy, you're on the right track. Using my Tatco with 3" jaw, I found it very
>easy to bend rivets when I squeezed them. I ended-up NOT using it to do 1/8
>rivets, rather, whenever possible to use the Avery tool or the gun. Then I
>was
>just very careful when squeezing 3/32 rivets (don't get me wrong, I squeezed
>every rivet I could get the jaws to reach, a squeezer does a great job).
>
>I recommend to new builders to just get the 1.5" or maximum 2" jaw. this
>still
>has enough depth to do 90% of the squeezable stuff and is easier to use (it
>even
>costs less!). As for not having any squeezer? I can't imagine dimpling all
>those ribs without one.
>
>If I were you, I'd send the 3" back and use the $$ somewhere else (like DJ
>Lauritsen Dimple dies). Then learn how to use the Avery tool and the gun for
>riveting 1/8" rivets and you'll be set.
>don w.
>
>
>
>Thanks to all who responded.
>
>I guess I might have been under an incorrect assumption. I thought it was
>better to "squeeze" when possible. I am also realizing some problems with
>various squeezer heads. I have both a 1 1/2 and a 3 inch head for my Tatco
>squeezer. Bob Avery talked me out of getting anything larger for squeezing
>rivets, although I guess they might be handy for dimpling. In using the
>larger head, it must be more possible to set up errors unless you are
>perfectly plumb with the rivet. I believe this is what I am interpreting
>from your replys. I have a 3x gun with lots of really good bucking bars so
>I guess I'll try that for a while.
>
>I have a friend that just completed his RV-6 without having a squeezer
>period. I just thought he had taken an extra risk doing it that way.
>Perhaps not.
>
>Your thoughts and comments are welcome.
>
>
>
> Randy McCallister
> RV-6 Tailfeathers in hand
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Intoduction (Nav Lights) |
I would have hit the FAA guy with the closest piece of wood I could find
if he told me that!! Maybe this guy put pink and orange lenses in the wing tips
thinking they would be good enough? There are a number of RV's and other
airplanes flying around here with colored Plexiglas covers on the wing tips and
white bulbs underneath.... If your worried about certification, pop the lenses
out off a whelen tip light and match there color and transparency ... this was
got to be good enough for any FAA guy.
Chris.Schulte
RV-6 #21390
San Jose CA
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Tom, I know one local builder who did that for his RV-4 and the FAA told
him they were 'not the right color, therefore unapproved'.
Whatever...
dw
>Another question - does anyone know of a source for smallish colored
>nav light
>lens covers that would fit the front corner of the wing tips? Most Glasairs
>I've seen do it this way with the red/green colored lens rather than
>clear over
>a colored light, but I've never seen this done on an RV. Or maybe pointers to
>info about moulding plexiglass covers in the oven and then dyeing
>them? I used
>to color model airplane canopies with Rit fabric dye in warm water,
>but I don't
>know if this would work well enough, or produce the politically correct
>"aviation red/green" colors.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Retarder for Variprime |
OK, as promised, I checked my can of Variprime retarder for the product
number. The # is 8100S. I've had vari good results using this stuff on hot
days, and it keeps the primer from dusting.
Happy building....Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carl Gaddis <cgaddis(at)dw3f.ess.harris.com> |
rassp.hac.com!gil(at)matronics.com (Gil Alexander) writes:
>Another interesting Mil Spec requirement is that wet Zinc
>Chromate to spec. TT-P-1757 (most aircraft type zinc chromates) must be
>used when two dissimilar metals are being riveted (coat the rivet,
>countersink, and the hole and rivet while wet). On an RV this is the case
>where 4130 steel brackets are being attached to Alum. structures ..... so
>use that zinc chromate wet when you rivet these parts!!!!!
HEY! Wait a minute... I used Dupont Variprime on all my parts before
riveting. Is this OK, or am I going to have abnormally high corrosion
problems?
Carl Gaddis, RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
>Carl Gaddis, RV-6 repiles to
>rassp.hac.com!gil(at)matronics.com (Gil Alexander) writes:
>>Another interesting Mil Spec requirement is that wet Zinc
>>Chromate to spec. TT-P-1757 (most aircraft type zinc chromates) must be
>>used when two dissimilar metals are being riveted (coat the rivet,
>>countersink, and the hole and rivet while wet). On an RV this is the case
>>where 4130 steel brackets are being attached to Alum. structures ..... so
>>use that zinc chromate wet when you rivet these parts!!!!!
>HEY! Wait a minute... I used Dupont Variprime on all my parts before
>riveting. Is this OK, or am I going to have abnormally high corrosion
>problems?
>
>Carl Gaddis, RV-6
Dunno Carl,
I read that variprime has zinc chromate in it. I used 3 coats on each
touching surface between the steel and aluminum.
Also, Some one wrote that the guy at (instructor and forum speaker)
Frederick said using variprime will null and void (not exact quote
mind you) any alodining you did the echant would destroy, melt,
dissolve the alodine, whatever. The Dupont folks didn't agree with that.
I believe the Dupont folks. The forum speaker also said to use WD-40 under
the rivets to keep em from corroding. So...
how do you then get paint to stick to the WD-40ed aluminum or ozing out from
under the rivets WD-40. (This fellow teaches future A/Ps, I always
wondered where some A/Ps learned how to do that lousy a work)
The nice person at Dupont said, "variprime is intended to be used
with alodining for maximum protection of aluminum parts. Also, variprime
should be sprayed on lightly 1/2 to 1 mil thick." Ok how do I measure a
mil", says I. The nice Dupont person replied, "You should still see
the aluminum under the paint, you don't want a thick coat."
So for corrosion protection I intend to keep on
1) Keep scratches to a minimum.
2) After all machining is done and just before riveting, use an
alumi-prep type cleaner/etchant. Following directions and
appling it with an ultra-fine scotch brite pad. Washing it off
with LOTS of water.
3) Using alodine, washing it of with water
4) Recommended coats of variprime.
Now I live in a dry climate, but who knows where I may end up.
So I am planning for eventual humid conditions, but not as bad or
good as Dave Hyde. Darn, having to live right on the bay...
I have for the project so far alodined everything, variprimed
all of my spars, both tail and wing. On the ribs variprimed the
rivet flanges, the raw aluminum where lightening holes were cut,
or any other tooling holes, and the skins where they touch
another piece of aluminum.
To cut the variprime, so its more vicous I use acetone. I also use
acetone to clean up after myself.
So thats my $.02....
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6 Denver
ps.. When talking to paint company types. Use the WORDS "Corrosion
Protection" NOT >Priming< means something entirely different.
Priming is what you do when you fill the imperfections of an autobody
or other object with a heavy paint, this paint also provids a base for
the color coat to lay onto and to bond with.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Variprime and rivet holes |
Carl,
I guess this is a case were the Mil Specs are going to the
ultimate. The intent here is to prevent dissimilar metals corrosion INSIDE
the rivet holes. The primer used may not fully penetrate the hole, or may
get scraped off as the rivets are inserted and driven. Van mentions a
similar thing in his instructions for using wet zinc chromate on cad.
plated AN bolts when inserting them for final assembly.
There are not many places in the RV where steel and alum are
riveted together (elevator drive horns, seat belt attach, aileron drive
tubes [I welded mine], bellcrank bearings come to mind), and I suppose that
some wet chromate would provide a little extra protection. It's also easy
to do, but I wouldn't worry to much if you haven't. I bet Cessna doesn't,
and the Bakersfield Bunch don't use any primer at all!! Just inspect
these parts carefully during the lifetime of the plane, and you will get
30+ years instead of 33+ years lifespan!!
I have been cadmium plating most of my steel parts, which seems
to be a really good corrosion inhibitor and fairly inexpensive ($40 lot
charge for lots of stuff).... but I'll probably powder coat the big stuff
such as the gear and engine mount. Don't cad. plate any heat treated 4130
though.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on this subject???
thanks .... Gil Alexander RV6A # 20701
>rassp.hac.com!gil(at)matronics.com (Gil Alexander) writes:
>
>>Another interesting Mil Spec requirement is that wet Zinc
>>Chromate to spec. TT-P-1757 (most aircraft type zinc chromates) must be
>>used when two dissimilar metals are being riveted (coat the rivet,
>>countersink, and the hole and rivet while wet). On an RV this is the case
>>where 4130 steel brackets are being attached to Alum. structures ..... so
>>use that zinc chromate wet when you rivet these parts!!!!!
>
>HEY! Wait a minute... I used Dupont Variprime on all my parts before
>riveting. Is this OK, or am I going to have abnormally high corrosion
>problems?
>
>Carl Gaddis, RV-6
---
Gil Alexander - Information Super Highway Address
| Internet : gil(at)rassp.hac.com
Hughes Aircraft Company | UUCP : ..!usc!hac2arpa!rassp!gil
Bldg R01 M/S B505 | Voice : (310) 334-7840
PO Box 92426 | RASSP Hot Line: (310) 334-5404
Los Angeles, CA 90009 | RASSP Fax : (310) 334-1672
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
Hi all,
I am having a very bad day as far as email is going, I was testing a
new MIME gateway for our network when I managed to blow away all my RV
mail. ):-((( (Unhappy to the MAX) Does anybody have a listing of
RV-Mail I can FTP to my machine??? I seem to remember that there was a
file you could FTP from roxanne, with the move to matronics.com is it
available from there??
With all the new members of the list this would be a great source of
info.
There are days when a rivet gun in you hand is worth a hole lot more
than a room full of PC's.
See ya
John Morrissey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: Project report from Australia |
--------------
> Hi all,
>
> ...
>
> Matt, is there a FTP area on the Matronics host? I was thinking of
> scanning a couple of pictures of the project and sending them to you.
> How about some of the other guys doing the same?. After all a visit
> from some of us guys in OZ is a bit expensive. Don, I really would
> like to get a look at your project now that the wings are on.
>
>
> Happy rivetting
>
> John Morrissey
> RV4 (second time around!!)
--------------
All-
Sorry, no FTP access to matronics.com for now. The anonymous ftp directory
on matronics.com is still open for some cool picture distribution. I
recently put a bunch of pics of my RV-4 on it. Look in pub/rv-stuff.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: Woe is me, :-( |
--------------
> Hi all,
>
> I am having a very bad day as far as email is going, I was testing a
> new MIME gateway for our network when I managed to blow away all my RV
> mail. ):-((( (Unhappy to the MAX) Does anybody have a listing of
> RV-Mail I can FTP to my machine??? I seem to remember that there was a
> file you could FTP from roxanne, with the move to matronics.com is it
> available from there??
>
> With all the new members of the list this would be a great source of
> info.
>
> There are days when a rivet gun in you hand is worth a hole lot more
> than a room full of PC's.
>
> See ya
>
> John Morrissey
>
>
--------------
John,
I'll send you the backposting file.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CH2MHILL!CVA!SKimura(at)ch2m1.attmail.com |
Hi All,
I'm yet another newbe to this rv list. Unfortunately,
I don't have a project to speak of. Yet.
I'm a *very* low-time PP, getting current now after
14 years of inactivity. I read about the RV-4 when it
first came out and dreamt of building one since.
I live in Corvallis, OR, about 60 miles from Van's place
(!), but I haven't seen it yet. I'm a Systems Analyst,
and love anything with wheels, engines, or wings.
I've enjoyed reading the rv-mail, and hopefully I'll
have a project to report on some day!
Steve Kimura
CH2M Hill, Inc.
kimuras(at)cva.msmail.ch2m.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Hi folks,
I thought I would like to start a painting discussion...
A friend has asked me to paint his RV6A in early June. He
completed it over a year ago and has been flying it in DP40 primer (chosen
because he bought Phlogiston wings in this color ... that's why he finished
quicker than the rest of us). We have a large hangar (50 x 100) available
to do the painting, but it will be difficult to keep to paint booth
standards. I have a Croix HVLP system (works great) to use.
I would like help on a few following points:
1. What type of paint to use .... I need something that can be buffed out
to touch up any defects caused by stray dirt. The obivious choices are:-
a. Acrylic lacquer ... DuPont auto type
b. Acrylic enamel - with added hardener ... DuPont Centari or equiv.
c. A polyurethane .... Ranthane or Imron
... any others???
I have a good quality face mask (with new charcoal cartridges), but
don't have a supplied air respirator.
2. How dangerous are options b. and c. in the conditions described, and is
a good face mask OK for a non-professional situation?? --- the local auto
paint stores say "don't worry about it".
3. Randolph Paints says their lacquer has been used on all of the Vero
Beach Pipers ... has anyone had experience using this paint recently on a
homebuilt?? At least it's less toxic, but how does it hold up??
4. We will clean, then red Schotchbrite all of the primered surfaces, then
give a solvent wipe before painting. Is this satisfactory preparation??
Any other thoughts are welcome ..... Gil Alexander
After this, there's a RV3 that needs a re-paint, but it's owner used a
base/clearcoat enamel combination with no hardener. ..... After this
practise, I should be good when it comes to mine!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu (Randy S. McCallister) |
| Subject: | Drill bit question |
Just wondering if anyone in the group has been specific about the kind of
drill bits they use for the RV project? Does it really matter if you use
the 118 degree drill bits vs. the 135 degree standard?
- Randy
<<<<
o(0-0)o
+----------------ooO-(_) Ooo---------------+
| "Once you have flown, you will walk the |
| earth with your eyes turned skyward, |
| for there you have been, there you long |
| to return" -- da Vinci |
________________________________________________________________________________
I'm working on my rudder and the plans call for using a little
RTV in the trailing edge to help prevent cracking. Can anyone
tell me what RTV is and where I could get some?
thanks,
Carl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Variprime retarder |
OK, as promised, I checked my can of Variprime retarder for the product
number. The # is 8100S. I've had vari good results using this stuff on hot
days, and it keeps the primer from dusting.
Happy building....Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil |
Forgot this last time I posted - Don Wentz, can
I get some info on your landing light kits?
Dave Hyde
davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil |
| Subject: | RTV, F-405, and senders |
Carl asked about RTV...
I got some help from the list on this one about a year ago - RTV
stands for room temperature vulcanizing. It's silicone caulk.
I got mine at the hardware store. I used the clear stuff that
said something like "safe for metar" or "non-toxic" or something
like that - it's apparently got less acetic acid (vinegar) in it
and less likely to cause corrosion, although I doubt the regular
stuff would be a problem.
And I've got questions...
The -4 manual describes a 'jig' used to set the proper spacing
on the front and rear F-405's (I think...maybe 404?) so that
the spar will fit in between them. Has anyone just used the
spar as the jig? Why not bolt the fwd and rear formers to
the spar, then cleco in the joining pieces,
and squeeze/rivet them with the formers on the spar?
Fuel senders - I'm ordering my senders soon to put in the fuel
tanks. Do I need to order the gauges at the same time? I'm
planning on using the senders shown on the plans (ordered from
Van's) but I don't know about the gauges yet. Are other gauges
compatible with these senders? I've seen other float-types in
Aircraft Spruce that are supposedly incompatible with all but
same-brand gauges. Anyone got any ideas?
Thanks,
Dave Hyde
davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | twg(at)blink.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278)) |
| Subject: | re: Painting a RV6A |
> I would like help on a few following points:
> c. A polyurethane .... Ranthane or Imron
>
> I have a good quality face mask (with new charcoal cartridges), but
> don't have a supplied air respirator.
>
> 2. How dangerous are options b. and c. in the conditions described, and is
> a good face mask OK for a non-professional situation?? --- the local auto
> paint stores say "don't worry about it".
Everything I've read from believable sources has said don't get anywhere near
the polyurethanes without a supplied air respirator - it's nasty stuff.
I remember in particular an article a few years ago in one of the model
airplane magazines by a guy who painted his model with Imron, using a plain
old charcoal filter mask. Shortly after finishing the job, he started
coughing up blood and had to be hospitalized for several days. I know a lot
of people have managed to get away with using Imron without an air fed
respirator, but I wouldn't risk it myself. It's not just long term
exposure that is the problem.
While on the thread of painting, the most recent issue of Fine Woodworking
magazine has an article showing how to build your own HVLP spray system using
an industrial vacuum cleaner blower. The particular blower/motor the author
selected would support 2 guns, and cost about $150, if I remember right.
He noted another model blower that was well under $100 that should work
fine for a one gun system. Built mostly out of plywood; looked pretty
simple to throw one together. He used a good quality (>$300) commercial HVLP
gun with his home brew turbine. I haven't tried it myself so I can't
give you any opinion one way or the other on how well the thing works, but it
looked like the perfect answer for the REAL homebuilder :-).
Tom Goeddel
RV-6A
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Painting a RV6A |
I have heard one YES vote for the Croix HVLP paint system this morning,
but previously have heard several NOs for HVPL in general. This
question is coming up more often; can any of you who have had personal
experience painting with HVLP, preferably with high-quality airplane or
auto paint, share your experiences? List the brand of painting
equipment, type of paint, and good or bad points.
frank(at)ssd.intel.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
I posted a response about the supposed dangers of using RTV, but I neglected
to answer the original question. RTV can be got at any automotive parts
store.The same goes for the alternatives I mentioned. I got some ultra-blue
at Fred Meyers.
Randall Henderson
randall(at)edt.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Carl, RTV is a vendor name for a 'silicone sealant' material. I would
recommend keeping silicone in general as far away from your project as you
can (causes paint sticking problems). Better to use a non acidic rubber
caulking material available at most hdwr stores.
Chris Shulte, need to hear from you about tomorrow.
don wentz
I'm working on my rudder and the plans call for using a little
RTV in the trailing edge to help prevent cracking. Can anyone
tell me what RTV is and where I could get some?
thanks,
Carl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
>I'm working on my rudder and the plans call for using a little
>RTV in the trailing edge to help prevent cracking. Can anyone
>tell me what RTV is and where I could get some?
>thanks,
>Carl
Blue snot...
You can get it at any auto-parts store or hardware store. There are a
couple of different colors that adhere differently and harden differently
It's basically silicon gel, I use surplus GM or FORD silicon that I picked
up a few years back for 50 cents a tube.
It's made by the same manufacture, Permatex.
Chris.
RV-6 #21390
San Jose, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Drill bit question |
Randy,
I use the split point drill bits, I think Avery sells them. It
doesn't really matter what you use, I recommend what ever works best
for you. The split points tend NOT to walk around on you, and there
is usually no need to center punch holes before drilling. I still
center punch for critical hole (just in case).
Chris.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Just wondering if anyone in the group has been specific about the kind of
drill bits they use for the RV project? Does it really matter if you use
the 118 degree drill bits vs. the 135 degree standard?
- Randy
<<<<
o(0-0)o
+----------------ooO-(_) Ooo---------------+
| "Once you have flown, you will walk the |
| earth with your eyes turned skyward, |
| for there you have been, there you long |
| to return" -- da Vinci |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
(Forgive me if this is duplicate info -- I think I mis-routed my original
posting on this.)
Regarding RTV, it's an adhesive sealant. You can get it at any automotive
parts store, or even at Fred Meyers around here. BUT.... There was some
discussion about possible corrosiveness of RTV a while back in this group and
elsewhere. Below is a copy of what I found out and posted back then.
--------
A while back I read on the rv-list that there was some concern that
using RTV on your elevator and rudder trailing edges might cause
problems down the line as it contains acetic acid, which can be corrosive.
I read this just after I'd finished closing up my left elevator with nice
little dabs of Permatex RTV at the ends of the stiffeners. How convenient.
I subsequently read in AOPA Pilot in an article about windshields that
"commercial RTV" has salts in it and can be highly corrosive. So I called
Permatex (now Lok-Tite) in Cleveland, OH and asked their rep about it.
He told me that the stuff I used (part #16B) can be corrosive to steel but
isn't generally a problem with aluminum. Hmmmm. He also said that it
contains acetic acid but no salts (he wouldn't give me the exact formula,
for obvious reasons). I then asked him what other products they have that
would not be corrosive, and he said the "Ultra" series - Ultra Black, Ultra
Blue, etc, or "Super Weatherstrip Adhesive".
I'm no chemist, so I have to take this guy's word for it, although when
I asked Van about this recently he indicated that he didn't think it would
be a problem, especially if it was applied over a primed surface.
I guess I'll find out for sure some day if little holes start appearing in
the skins at the end of the stiffeners. In the meantime I used some "Super
Weatherstrip Adhesive" I had laying around on the rest of the empennage
control surfaces. I intend to stay away from RTV in the future, just to be
safe.
Randall Henderson
randall(at)edt.com
~
~
~
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: fuel senders |
>
>Fuel senders - I'm ordering my senders soon to put in the fuel
>tanks. Do I need to order the gauges at the same time? I'm
>planning on using the senders shown on the plans (ordered from
>Van's) but I don't know about the gauges yet. Are other gauges
>compatible with these senders? I've seen other float-types in
>Aircraft Spruce that are supposedly incompatible with all but
>same-brand gauges. Anyone got any ideas?
>
Buy the senders now, the gages can wait....
The senders recommended for the RV are "Stewart Warner" type and have
a resistance range of 33 to 240 ohms. These are the senders sold by
Vans.
There are only 3 basic sender/gage systems for auto applications:
I. Stewart Warner (SW) also used on some AMC applications
II. A Ford/Chrysler standard
III. A GM standard
Any auto/marine gage that can be used for Stewart Warner senders should
be suitable ... check Hot Rod catalogs ... VDO makes several kinds,
including 2 inch and 2 5/8 inch ones (auto style though, with a rear clamp)
with a BLACK bezel that would look a little more in place in a plane
cockpit.
I bought a dual Westach fuel level gage from Aircraft Spruce that was
intended for use with their capacative senders. Being an Electronics
Engineer it should be easy to add circuitry to make the sender and gage
compatible .. right?? Imagine my surprise when I found that Van's senders
SEEM to be directly compatible with the Westach dual gage!! This was a
year ago, and since gages are still a way off in my project, I did not
complete the experiments.
I will get my gage and senders, and finish off the experiments, and
report to this list in a week or two. I should be able to correlate sender
angle vs. resistance vs. gage reading. Perhaps the manufacturers don't
want compatibility to be known so than can sell you their own expensive
senders??
Does anyone have a Rochester fuel level gage they can try with a Van's
sender??
happy building ..... Gil Alexander RV6A #20701
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
Van was going to follow-up on a material that my dad has used for aircraft
window installation. A RVator issue may report his findings if favorable. It's
called Lexal and I think it's an acrylic caulk. Anyway it's supposed to be
non-corrosive to aluminum and I'm sure you could get the latest word from
Van's.
Earl Brabandt (N66VR under construction) RV-6 almost back to work--just a few
more projects first!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Regarding primer:
The stuff I and several other local Portland area builders are using is
two-part epoxy primer available from Courtaulds Aerospace. I'm not sure, but
I think it's the same stuff Boeing uses. I'll attest to the "bullet-proof-
ness" of the stuff. A bit more of a pain to use than some others since the pot
life is relatively short - 4 hours or so.
The number of Courtaulds' Kent, WA distribution plant is 206-821-8500 (ask for
Sally). They'll sell it at $44 for a 2 gal kit if you buy at least six kits
(should take about 2 kits to do the interior of an RV-6 using a conventional
spray system). It's a lot more for single kits, $80 or $90 I think. (They used
to give us RV builders the discount for single kits but no more....) There's
also a reducer that's about $11/gal, which should be enough for the whole
thing.
This stuff isn't self-etching, and although it sticks QUITE well anyway, you
should clean the surface with acid etch and/or buff with scotch-brite before
priming for best results. I'm using the Phosphoric acid based etch/cleaner
followed by Alodyne 1201 for max corrosion protection. I get both from
Aircraft Spruce.
Courtaulds puts out a technical bulletin entitled "Painting Procedures and
Techniques" that describes their recommendations for all this. Seems like a
good thing to have. Call their technical number 1-800-332-7686 x354 for that.
All that being said, I wouldn't recommend going the whole route unless
you're particularly worried about corrosion. I spend a lot of time at the
coast, and hope to put it on floats some day, so I figure it's a good idea for
me, but it's a big pain in the butt, and adds a lot of extra hours of building
time. After all, there are a lot of 30+ yr old Cessnas still flying around
and they didn't use any primer on most of those! And how many of us plan to
leave our precious RVs out in the rain anyhow? Of course you should always
prime the non-alclad parts, but a can of Zinc Chromate would work ok for that.
Randall Henderson
randall(at)edt.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Some people have mentioned the extra weight of priming the interior parts.
I've often wondered about this but have never heard a definitive answer.
So what the hell, I'll hazard an estimate.
I've done the interior and exterior of the tail and all interior wing parts
including the inside of the skins, and I've used up maybe 90% of one 2 gal. kit,
plus about 1/2 gal of thinner. I figure it'll take about the same amount to
do the interior of the fuse. I'm not sure exactly what the paint weighs, call
it 6 lbs/gal. Since a normal spray gun is about 25% efficent, that means I'll
have 25% of 4.5 gals at 6 lbs/gal, or (.025 x 4.5 x 6) = ~6.75 lbs.
It's actually probably somewhat less since I'm not that great of a painter and
tend to have a lot of overspray, and there's usually some some paint left over
from each batch I mix up, but it gives a rough idea. Does this make
sense? Anyone have any better data on this?
Randall Henderson
randall(at)edt.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re: RTV, F-405, and senders |
Dave:
On fuel senders and gauges: Yes, there are some incompatibilities
between mechanical senders and gauges (not to mention capacitive-type
senders), so it is best to get both at the same time. As I remember you
have already built your tanks. but for those who haven't, it is best to
have get both the gauges and the senders and hook them up so you can
adjust the float arm before you rivet on the baffle at the back of the
tank. That way you will know exactly what the gauge means at all
levels.
frank(at)ssd.intel.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: Duckworks
Forgot this last time I posted - Don Wentz, can
I get some info on your landing light kits?
Dave Hyde
davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Dave: You don't need information, just send money. You'll be glad you did.
frank(at)ssd.intel.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re: Drill bit question |
Just wondering if anyone in the group has been specific about the kind of
drill bits they use for the RV project? Does it really matter if you use
the 118 degree drill bits vs. the 135 degree standard?
I looked this up in Machinery's Handbook and another text on metalworking
and got the same answer; most any angle works for aluminum. There was no
explanation of why the tables showed more restrictive criteria for harder
metals.
It is definitely worth the little extra to buy split-point bits; on these
the tip is ground just like a regular bit, but then the back side of the flute
is ground away to leave a very sharp point rather than a sharp ridge. Like
Chris says, you should seldom if ever have to use a centerpunch with a
split-point bit, and that will save you lots of hours.
Another interesting drill bit to have is the Black and Decker "bullet point"
available in most hardware stores. This is a regular bit with about 1/8" of the
tip turned down to a much smaller diameter. Great for drilling very accurate
holes without centerpunching. Unfortunately they only go down to 1/8" size.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: fuel senders |
Randall,
Don't use a gage for calibration, the scale and pointer just
don't have a good enough resolution. Do calibrate the senders before tank
close-up ..... beg, borrow or steal a good digital meter, and adjust the
senders to 33 ohms and 240 ohms at each end of the scale. Then your
senders should work with any accurate, compatible meter.
keep on gaging ..... Gil Alexander
>>
>> Buy the senders now, the gages can wait....
>>
>
>Amazing coincidence -- I was talking to Bill Benedict on the phone 5 minutes
>before this came through, and he recommended I buy at least one fuel gage
>now so I can adjust the length of the arm on the fuel sender before closing
>up the tank to calibrate it with the gage.
>
>Randall Henderson
>randall(at)edt.com
---
Gil Alexander - Information Super Highway Address
| Internet : gil(at)rassp.hac.com
Hughes Aircraft Company | UUCP : ..!usc!hac2arpa!rassp!gil
Bldg R01 M/S B505 | Voice : (310) 334-7840
PO Box 92426 | RASSP Hot Line: (310) 334-5404
Los Angeles, CA 90009 | RASSP Fax : (310) 334-1672
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: fuel senders |
There is one other thing to beware of when setting up a gauge if you dont
use a digital volt meater (DVM) as discribed below. Your charging system puts
out more voltage than a battery will supply. Any adjustments should be made
with a charger onthe system to simulate actual operating conditions. This also
applys to any other adjustable electrical system component, like electric gear
retaction motors or flap actuator motors.
____________________________________________________________________________
| |
| ( ) |
| ( ) ( ) Chris Ruble |
| /\ )( ) Gotta love it! cruble(at)cisco.com |
| / \) /\ ) ) / Piper PA-28-180 |
| / \/ \ ) __|__ N8085W |
|/ \ \ _____(o)_____ Shelter 92, SJC |
|________\___\___!_ ! _!_____________________________________________________|
----- Begin Included Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rassp.hac.com!gil(at)matronics.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: fuel senders |
Randall,
Don't use a gage for calibration, the scale and pointer just
don't have a good enough resolution. Do calibrate the senders before tank
close-up ..... beg, borrow or steal a good digital meter, and adjust the
senders to 33 ohms and 240 ohms at each end of the scale. Then your
senders should work with any accurate, compatible meter.
keep on gaging ..... Gil Alexander
>>
>> Buy the senders now, the gages can wait....
>>
>
>Amazing coincidence -- I was talking to Bill Benedict on the phone 5 minutes
>before this came through, and he recommended I buy at least one fuel gage
>now so I can adjust the length of the arm on the fuel sender before closing
>up the tank to calibrate it with the gage.
>
>Randall Henderson
>randall(at)edt.com
---
Gil Alexander - Information Super Highway Address
| Internet : gil(at)rassp.hac.com
Hughes Aircraft Company | UUCP : ..!usc!hac2arpa!rassp!gil
Bldg R01 M/S B505 | Voice : (310) 334-7840
PO Box 92426 | RASSP Hot Line: (310) 334-5404
Los Angeles, CA 90009 | RASSP Fax : (310) 334-1672
----- End Included Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
> From edt.com!randall(at)matronics.com Mon May 9 18:24:30 1994
>
> Some people have mentioned the extra weight of priming the interior parts.
> I've often wondered about this but have never heard a definitive answer.
> So what the hell, I'll hazard an estimate.
>
> I figure it'll take about the same amount to
> do the interior of the fuse. I'm not sure exactly what the paint weighs, call
> it 6 lbs/gal. Since a normal spray gun is about 25% efficent, that means I'll
> have 25% of 4.5 gals at 6 lbs/gal, or (.025 x 4.5 x 6) = ~6.75 lbs.
> Does this make
> sense? Anyone have any better data on this?
>
The 25% transfer efficiency is probably close, but you might want to call
if 50% to be safe. The big thing you haven't considered yet is the weight
of the solvent vs. the solids. The solvent flashes-off of course so you need
to estimate how much of the paint is going into the atmosphere.
Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
| Subject: | Fuel sender adjustments |
Text item: Text_1
True you may need adjust for the power of your electrical system when
adjusting some sender / guage combinations. But most guages are
designed to run on multiple voltage systems. You'll get the same
reading at 10 volts as you do at 24 volts.
Anyway, if you want accuracy there is only two ways to do it, Get a
fuel totalizer or simple land when the engine stops :) either way you
know when the tank is really empty.
Chris.
RV-6 #21390
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
>> Just wondering if anyone in the group has been specific about the kind of
>> drill bits they use for the RV project? Does it really matter if you use
>> the 118 degree drill bits vs. the 135 degree standard?
And Frank responded:
>
> Another interesting drill bit to have is the Black and Decker "bullet point"
> available in most hardware stores. This is a regular bit with about 1/8" of
> the
> tip turned down to a much smaller diameter. Great for drilling very accurate
> holes without centerpunching. Unfortunately they only go down to 1/8" size.
I've been getting those bullet point bits as replacements for my base set of
drills whenever I break one of my regular bits -- they really work well, and
seem pretty durable. But as Frank mentioned, they don't go below 1/8". And
no numbered sizes as far as I know. I get the numbered bits from Avery, don't
know what angle they are, don't really care. EXCEPT -- when it comes to the
Plexiglas canopy, apparently there's a danger of chips & cracks using regular
bits. In "Sportplane Construction Techniques" Tony Bineglis describes how to
grind the tip of a regular bit to 60 deg. tip angle and 0 deg. rake angle.
Or just buy a Plexiglas bit from Aircraft Spruce.
While on the subject of drills, I use a #41 bit (from Avery) instead of #40
for any -3 rivet holes that will be dimpled, since the dimple tends to enlarge
the hole. It doesn't make a lot of difference but it helps a little.
Randall Henderson
randall(at)edt.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: more drill bits |
All RV drillers,
I have used the Cobalt drills from Avery, and did not
find them better than regular drills for drilling thin aluminum. They are
formed with a coarser "pitch", and I found them to grab as they exited the
backside of the hole, no matter how little (or a lot of) pressure you apply
to the drill. Save the cobalt drills for steel parts.
I also find the #41 best for all holes, dimpled or not,
and don't buy #40 any more. I have had very good luck buying regular
aircraft drills from ATS (their other stuff isn't so good though). All
their drills are split point (don't buy non-split point), and I believe are
118 degrees ... sold expressly for aircraft fabrication.
A useful trick I found is to buy 6 inch long #41 drills
from ATS, and use my grinder to shorten them to about 4 inches. This size
seems an optimum for such critical tasks as wing skin drilling. The longer
length makes it easier for you to get normal (90 degrees) to the skin by
using the reflection on the surface .. just make the drill and the
reflection into a straight line. But I also found that the full 6 inch
length was a little to "whippy" for a #41, hence the cutting down to 4
inches. The split points rarely wander, making punch marks unnecessary.
Try this .... you'll like it.
>>>Original:
>>> Just wondering if anyone in the group has been specific about the kind of
>>> drill bits they use for the RV project? Does it really matter if you use
>>> the 118 degree drill bits vs. the 135 degree standard?
>
>And Frank responded:
>>
>> Another interesting drill bit to have is the Black and Decker "bullet point"
>> available in most hardware stores. This is a regular bit with about 1/8" of
>> the
>> tip turned down to a much smaller diameter. Great for drilling very accurate
>> holes without centerpunching. Unfortunately they only go down to 1/8" size.
>
>I've been getting those bullet point bits as replacements for my base set of
>drills whenever I break one of my regular bits -- they really work well, and
>seem pretty durable. But as Frank mentioned, they don't go below 1/8". And
>no numbered sizes as far as I know. I get the numbered bits from Avery, don't
>know what angle they are, don't really care. EXCEPT -- when it comes to the
>Plexiglas canopy, apparently there's a danger of chips & cracks using regular
>bits. In "Sportplane Construction Techniques" Tony Bineglis describes how to
>grind the tip of a regular bit to 60 deg. tip angle and 0 deg. rake angle.
>Or just buy a Plexiglas bit from Aircraft Spruce.
>
>While on the subject of drills, I use a #41 bit (from Avery) instead of #40
>for any -3 rivet holes that will be dimpled, since the dimple tends to enlarge
>the hole. It doesn't make a lot of difference but it helps a little.
>
>Randall Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re[2]: more drill bits |
> I have used the Cobalt drills from Avery, and did not
>find them better than regular drills for drilling thin aluminum.
Cobalt drills can stand the high heat of drilling in hard materials better
than High Speed Steel bits; that is their only advantage. Hence they are not
any better (just more expensive) for drilling in aluminum. (Looked this up in
Machinery's Handbook after buying a bunch)
> I also find the #41 best for all holes, dimpled or not,
>and don't buy #40 any more.
My countersink bit pilot doesn't like #41 holes, but I could have just taken
a few thousandths off of it; didn't think about it until now. Otherwise, if
your rivets drop easily into your holes stick with #41 and save switching bits.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[3]: more drill bits |
I also use #41 bits. I found the #40 hole opens up more than I liked when
dimpled. I also use a drill with controlable trigger speed. It allows me
to start slow and guide the position of the bit as it begins to cut. Also
believe slower speed keeps the bit sharp longer.
J-MikeWilson
> I have used the Cobalt drills from Avery, and did not
>find them better than regular drills for drilling thin aluminum.
Cobalt drills can stand the high heat of drilling in hard materials
better
than High Speed Steel bits; that is their only advantage. Hence
they are not
any better (just more expensive) for drilling in aluminum. (Looked
this up in
Machinery's Handbook after buying a bunch)
> I also find the #41 best for all holes, dimpled or not,
>and don't buy #40 any more.
My countersink bit pilot doesn't like #41 holes, but I could
have just taken
a few thousandths off of it; didn't think about it until now. Otherwise, if
your rivets drop easily into your holes stick with #41 and save switching
bits.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
| Subject: | Re[4]: more drill bits (drill speed) |
With regards to drill speed, when drilling through soft metals such as
aluminum it's important to keep the drill bit rotation speed fast.
Slow turning bits will tend to leave you with three sided holes (one
more side then cutting surfaces on the bit).
This is especially apparent when drilling bigger holes and you may not
see it in a #41.
Your mileage may vary...
Chris.
RV-6 #21390
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
I also use #41 bits. I found the #40 hole opens up more than I liked when
dimpled. I also use a drill with controlable trigger speed. It allows me
to start slow and guide the position of the bit as it begins to cut. Also
believe slower speed keeps the bit sharp longer.
J-MikeWilson
> I have used the Cobalt drills from Avery, and did not
>find them better than regular drills for drilling thin aluminum.
Cobalt drills can stand the high heat of drilling in hard materials
better
than High Speed Steel bits; that is their only advantage. Hence
they are not
any better (just more expensive) for drilling in aluminum. (Looked
this up in
Machinery's Handbook after buying a bunch)
> I also find the #41 best for all holes, dimpled or not,
>and don't buy #40 any more.
My countersink bit pilot doesn't like #41 holes, but I could
have just taken
a few thousandths off of it; didn't think about it until now. Otherwise, if
your rivets drop easily into your holes stick with #41 and save switching
bits.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Duckworks |
Dave, did you send your address?
dw
Subject: Duckworks
Forgot this last time I posted - Don Wentz, can
I get some info on your landing light kits?
Dave Hyde
davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Dave: You don't need information, just send money. You'll be
glad you did.
frank(at)ssd.intel.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
| Subject: | Floatplane RV-6 pix? |
Hey, y'all,
At about midnight last night I finished reading the archive
to this list through the end of 1993. (660 pages! Still
have 140 to get caught up for 1994) That took a week of
sleepless nights. I have lots of questions for the group, but
I'll try to hold some off until I have the plans and am more
informed.
In the meantime:
At the end of last year, there was discussion of the RV-6
floatplane, and the pictures and video of it. Could someone
scan a photo or two, and put them on roxanne where those of
us without old RVators can get them? (Any format EXCEPT .bmp
will be fine.)
About 14 months ago, Don Wentz mentioned Doug Stenger having
a fuselage with joggled joints. How do you joggle metal skins?
(Very carefully, I suppose.) Is there any concern about the
thinned metal tearing?
Other tidbits:
A good friend of mine told me that his dad used to do aircraft
maintenance, and he had "six of everything" in the way of metal
tools cluttering up the garage that he'd probably be glad to
get rid of. Looks like it could be a start to my tool collection.
Van's is expecting me on the 24th of June for a visit and demo ride.
Sent in my $$$ to get the RVator and EAA membership.
John Henderson
Department of Electrical Engineering
Auburn University
RV-6 ?????
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
| Subject: | Re[5]: more drill bits (drill speed) |
> From netcom.com!uucp(at)matronics.com Thu May 12 18:04:25 1994
> Date: Thu, 12 May 94 13:36:30 PST
> From: Chris Schulte <smtplink.ashtech.com!chris(at)matronics.com>
> Message-Id: <9405121336.A04392(at)smtplink.ashtech.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re[4]: more drill bits (drill speed)
>
> With regards to drill speed, when drilling through soft metals such as
> aluminum it's important to keep the drill bit rotation speed fast.
> Slow turning bits will tend to leave you with three sided holes (one
> more side then cutting surfaces on the bit).
>
> This is especially apparent when drilling bigger holes and you may not
> see it in a #41.
>
> Your mileage may vary...
>
>
> Chris.
> RV-6 #21390
>
>
>
>
Howdy,
I agree with Chris, speed really helps, but controlling the speed is the
question. I think I have found an answer. A couple years ago I bought an
Ingersol-Rand drill motor from Action Air Parts, in the fly market at
Oshkosh.
First the drill motor: It's a 7AH, rated 0-6000 rpm. It has a truely
variable speed trigger, I can turn the bit about 50 rpm, that starts the
hole, then a quick squeeze of the trigger, 6000 rpm and a beautiful hole.
Using 135 degree split point bits, I no longer need to center punch each
hole.
Now the commercial :^)
I paid (get this) $45.00 for this wonderful drill motor. Jerry has more
drill motors for sale, in the $40 to $50 range. I don't know if he has
any more of this particular drill but there are others. Jerry bought out
the Rockwell B-1 line of hand tools some years ago. He reconditions all
of his rivet guns, and some of the drill motors. Ya have to ask him. He is
vary familiar with RVs. Some price from his flyer: Chicago-Pneu. rivet
guns 2X, 3X, 4X $150.00; Cleco rivet guns 2X-4X $95.00; Rockwell 0-3000
drill motor, teasing trigger $49.50; Chicago-Pneumatic right angle
drill motor $130.00 2500 rpm; Chic-Pnue squeezer 4" yoke $350.00.
Action Air Parts, 106 Airport Drive, Port Huron, MI 48074 810 364-5885
I am not related to the folks there nor do I get a commision, but the tools
work, and the price is good. Call or write Jerry hes a good guy.
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6 More holes to go, darn it!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
Hi,
Last Saturday two friends were Killed in a RV-4. Richard Lichbaugh, pilot;
and Les Spross, passenger, were killed at Black Forest, glider port, BF is
midway between Denver and Co Springs.
Richard had bought the RV a year ago, and was not a builder type. He was
learning aerobatics and I would judge him an average GA pilot. Les was
1 month away from finishing his RV-4.
The reason for the accident was stupidity...
The RV-4 made a low pass (20') down the runway, pulled up turned to the
left, it snapped (stalled) and hit the ground. Both pilots were average
weight 170 lbs or so. There was quiet a bit of turbulance, that might
be the contributing factor to the high speed stall. Seems I remember from
aerodynamics that the G-load increases dramatically when banking and
hitting turbulance. The FAA stated the airframe didn't fail.
So.... When Van, common sense, your buddies, your mom, say not to do
something because it's stupid and dangerous, Please believe them, please!!
Les was a very good friend, I will miss him a lot.
Doug Bloomberg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Followup: fuel senders |
Rv fuel gaugers,
Just a followup to my fuel senders message of a few days
ago. I found the various sender resistances:-
Empty Full
GM 0 ohms 90 ohms
Ford/Chrysler 73 ohms 8 to 12 ohms
AMC/SW (Vans) 240 ohms 33 ohms
The important item to note is that the EMPTY reading of a Stewart
Warner (Vans) sender is 240 ohms ... don't install the sender upside down.
The geometry of Vans stock sender (for full and empty levels) becomes
obvious when you realize it is designed to be mounted flat on the TOP
surface of a fuel tank, hence the funny bends in the arm. The stops for
the arm are easy to adust to get these readings within 1 or 2 ohms.
As a separate note, sometime back, one of the Bakersfield Bunch
(can't remmember who) told me that when you set up the swinging of the fuel
sender arm in the tank, the empty and full positions of the float should be
slightly (a quarter inch) away from the surfaces of the tank. If the
floats are any closer to the tank surfaces, then some "dinging" can occur
with g forces during aerobatics, looking unsightly.
QUESTION:-
Has anyone else heard of this, or set up their floats in this way????
Personally, I think I will also install low fuel level switches
(from Aircraft Spruce) in the access plate, and connect them to yellow
lights by the guages.
...... Gil Alexander
>Randall,
> Don't use a gage for calibration, the scale and pointer just
>don't have a good enough resolution. Do calibrate the senders before tank
>close-up ..... beg, borrow or steal a good digital meter, and adjust the
>senders to 33 ohms and 240 ohms at each end of the scale. Then your
>senders should work with any accurate, compatible meter.
>
> keep on gaging ..... Gil Alexander
>
>
>>>
>>> Buy the senders now, the gages can wait....
>>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Floatplane RV-6 pix? |
Hi John, I don't know the answer to your question about joggling, but you
could call Doug (503-324-6993) and ask him.
If those question marks behind the 'RV-6' at the end of your note means
you are undecided, I personally would recommend: If you want utility,
build an RV-6A, if you want maximum sportiness, do a -4. Yes the -6 is
slightly better looking than the -6A, but having ridden in all 3 types,
the -6A is awful nice in ground ops, and landings. I'm doing a -6 now,
but if I was starting over, it would be a -6A.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
Hope to fly in June, don wentz, RV-6 #20369, 180hp F.I. N790DW.
Hey, y'all,
At about midnight last night I finished reading the archive
to this list through the end of 1993. (660 pages! Still
have 140 to get caught up for 1994) That took a week of
sleepless nights. I have lots of questions for the group, but
I'll try to hold some off until I have the plans and am more
informed.
In the meantime:
At the end of last year, there was discussion of the RV-6
floatplane, and the pictures and video of it. Could someone
scan a photo or two, and put them on roxanne where those of
us without old RVators can get them? (Any format EXCEPT .bmp
will be fine.)
About 14 months ago, Don Wentz mentioned Doug Stenger having
a fuselage with joggled joints. How do you joggle metal skins?
(Very carefully, I suppose.) Is there any concern about the
thinned metal tearing?
Other tidbits:
A good friend of mine told me that his dad used to do aircraft
maintenance, and he had "six of everything" in the way of metal
tools cluttering up the garage that he'd probably be glad to
get rid of. Looks like it could be a start to my tool collection.
Van's is expecting me on the 24th of June for a visit and demo ride.
Sent in my $$$ to get the RVator and EAA membership.
John Henderson
Department of Electrical Engineering
Auburn University
RV-6 ?????
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Elect. trim kits for sale |
I have two electric trim kits for the RV-6 for sale. I think I payed about $150
each for them from Van's. They are complete with servos, indicators, and
hardware. Let's make a deal.
____________________________________________________________________________
| |
| ( ) |
| ( ) ( ) Chris Ruble |
| /\ )( ) Gotta love it! cruble(at)cisco.com |
| / \) /\ ) ) / Piper PA-28-180 |
| / \/ \ ) __|__ N8085W |
|/ \ \ _____(o)_____ Shelter 92, SJC |
|________\___\___!_ ! _!_____________________________________________________|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmbrown(at)netcom.netcom.com (John Brown) |
| Subject: | Hangar Space AVail |
If there is anyone in the Bay area that would like to share a hangar
at RHV, please let me know. I am starting to work on a RV-6 and I have
a hangar on India Row at RHV. I am paying $320.50 per month and would
like to split it, doesn't have to be 50/50. Let me know via email
thanks..
-------sig cut here-------
jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL
Building an RV-6 N61JB "The Golden BeeBee"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [Enclosed file: rv1] |
Thanks for including me to the RV-List. I have been "dinking" around with
my RV6 project for a little over three years now. So far I have the tail
done except for the rudder and left elevator. (I haven't decided exactly
how or whether I want do electric trim tabs.) The right wing is also
complete except for the bottom skin and Wingtip. I wanted access to it
while I do the Left wing so I have an example to work from. Speaking of
the Left Wing, it is in the Jig, the Outboard Leading Edge is complete, and
the (single piece) top skin is drilled and clecoed in place. I just
finished the left fuel tank last night.
This brings me to a question I would like to pose to other builders; "...to
Slosh or not to Slosh...?" It has been a topic in the "RVator for several
issues now, and I am looking for any additional advoce.
I have been very careful to keep the interior surfaces very clean. All
parts were scrubbed with "Scotchbright" and carefully cleaned with a mild
Phosphoric acid solution several times. New latex gloves were used when
ever handling any interior surfaces.
I am particularly interested sloshing as a corrosion protection more than a
sealant. I was very careful, and generous with the "Proseal", so I
feel all of the leaks have been sealed.
If anyone has had any practical experience (good or bad) with tanks that have
been sloshed, I would like to hear from you. If you could send me the
following information, I would appreciate it:
- How long has the tank been in service?
- What kind of preparation did you do before sloshing?
- What kind of cleaner did you use? Naphtha? Coleman Fuel? MEK,
Acetone, etc...?
- How long was it between the time you cleaned the interior surfaces
and the tank was sloshed?
- What Sloshing compound did you use and what was your procedure?
Pressurize the tank? How long did you let it dry?
- If you have had a problem, what are the symptoms and the severity?
- If you have not had any problems, what do you attribute your
success to?
If there is enough of a response, I'll E-Mail the results to the Mailing list.
Thanks!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com> |
Hi, I joined the list about a week ago. Personally, I'm at the stage where
the only money I've spent at Van's was the info packet and the video, but I
already know that eventually they're going to be getting another ten grand or
more from me. Gladly.
I'm sold on the RV-6. It's gorgeous, it's fast, it's slow, it's sleek. I'm
having the most wonderful pipe dreams (I even know what design I want to
paint on it.) I really should try to get a ride in one soon. :-)
But naturally I have some questions.
I'm not 100% aware of how Riveting works. I've never driven a rivet I
understand how the hand tools they show in the video work, and I understand
the theory, but when it comes to imagining the riveting of things like the
middle of the wing skins.... How far does the head of the rivet gun travel?
Are you holding the top of the rivet all the way into the countersink when
you pull the trigger, or does the bucking bar push it slightly out of the
hole and the hammer drives it back in? I'm sure this is all old hat to those
of you who have driven thousands of rivets by now, but I'm of the "there are
no dumb questions" school. They really should have an example of rivet gun
riveting in the video, since that's what you have to do the most of.
I've also been poring over the optional equipment catalog I picked up at the
RVator's meeting held at Van's (I was incredibly impressed by their operation
and wrote about it on r.a.homebuilt), and I realized that you can spend
almost as much on the avionics as the airframe, if not more. One thing I was
curious about was that VM 1000 thing, that engine monitoring system that has
everything displayed on one 5" square LCD plate. Is it any good? Is it more
cost effective than a full set of other gauges? or is it overkill?
Are the prices Van's can get on these things good, or are you all getting
your instruments from other sources? Are you buying new engines through
them, or are you all going with used ones? Which is better for a -6, the
O-320 or the O-360? Why? (In the back of one issue of the newsletter that
was with the info packet there was an ad for an IO-360-A1A and a note under
it said that it was not recommended, why?). Is anyone using something like a
three blade IvoProp? What do you need for flying inverted aside from the
Christian Oiler and the floppy pickup tube?
After looking more closely at some wing photos, and seeing a couple of planes
(I saw a -4 in the transient parking at Independence airport in Oregon last
Friday. It was immaculate. Anyone we know?) it looks like the fuel tank is
detachable (umpteen million screws). Has anyone lengthened them?
Hmmm, anyone consider Flaperons? (Just an idle question) What would that do
to the behaviour?
I know that these things are WAY in the future (I still need a place with a
garage to build it in) but those are the things on my mind. And even though
all these things are questions about the finished product, I would like to
say that I do enjoy working with my hands and I'm looking forward to the
building process.
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
John Henderson wrote:
> RV-6 ?????
and Don Wentz wrote:
> If those question marks behind the 'RV-6' at the end of your note means
> you are undecided, I personally would recommend: If you want utility,
> build an RV-6A, if you want maximum sportiness, do a -4. Yes the -6 is
> slightly better looking than the -6A, but having ridden in all 3 types,
> the -6A is awful nice in ground ops, and landings. I'm doing a -6 now,
> but if I was starting over, it would be a -6A.
Ok I admit, even though I've been signing my e-mail "RV-6", I'm one of
those who's still on the fence about this (as Don knows). At this point
I'm a month or so from ordering the fuse so I guess I'd better decide pretty
soon. So I'll pour out my thoughts, for anyone who cares or wants to comment.
I know that in the end it's an individual choice that one has to make oneself,
but it's worth discussion.
Right now I'm leaning towards the -6A, because I can't really come up with
too many reasons not to, other than I think the -6 is cooler. Which, to me
anyway, is a pretty compelling reason in itself. But there are a couple of
other points that nag at me. One is that I've heard the -6A landing gear
installation is quite a bit more hassle to build. Another is that the -6A
gear extends up into the floor of the cockpit. Anyone who has one find this
annoying at all? The only other thing is the possibility for a float
installation, which I hope to do someday. I know that Eustace Bowhay is
working on a -6A float conversion, but since it's not actually DONE yet I
worry about that, as well as the fact that in general, a conventional gear
configuration lends itself to float conversion better than a tri-gear.
As far as the pilot skills involved, I can't say I'm really worried about
being able to handle a tailwheel, I have about 25 hours of tailwheel time
and currently fly a Champion Citabria that I have a share in, so I'm by no
means an expert tailwheel pilot but I'm not a complete novice either. Even so,
do I really want to have the extra worry of having to be that much more on
top of the thing when landing in with a stiff crosswind? I just don't know...
Randall Henderson
RV-6(A?F?)
Left spar in the jig, leading edge skin drilled, tank under construction
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mor374(at)ccmime.its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
Hi Richard,
So many questions!! So Little Time!! :-)
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Hello list
Date: 16/5/ 0 9:13 PM
>Hi, I joined the list about a week ago. Personally, I'm at the stage where
>the only money I've spent at Van's was the info packet and the video, but I
>already know that eventually they're going to be getting another ten grand or
>more from me. Gladly.
>I'm sold on the RV-6. It's gorgeous, it's fast, it's slow, it's sleek. I'm
>having the most wonderful pipe dreams (I even know what design I want to
>paint on it.) I really should try to get a ride in one soon. :-)
You WILL enjoy it! They are a delight to fly! What flying have you done? A low
time Cessna would do better with the RV-6A, as they are a real pussycat on the
ground. (Real Pilots fly taildraggers!!!!!!) :-)
>But naturally I have some questions.
>I'm not 100% aware of how Riveting works. I've never driven a rivet I
>understand how the hand tools they show in the video work, and I understand
>the theory, but when it comes to imagining the riveting of things like the
>middle of the wing skins.... How far does the head of the rivet gun travel?
>Are you holding the top of the rivet all the way into the countersink when
>you pull the trigger, or does the bucking bar push it slightly out of the
>hole and the hammer drives it back in? I'm sure this is all old hat to those
>of you who have driven thousands of rivets by now, but I'm of the "there are
>no dumb questions" school. They really should have an example of rivet gun
>riveting in the video, since that's what you have to do the most of.
Van's supplies a fair bit of offcut material with the kit for you to play with.
Basically all you do is drill the hole in the material you are going to rivet
together, Debur it, countersink or dimple it, put the rivet in and put the gun
up against the rivet head, apply the bucking bar to the other side of the rivet
and pull the trigger for a short burst. Inspect the rivet. (The Avery rivet
gauge is good for this.) If the rivet needs more setting then give it another
short burst. Best advice I can give you is contact other builders in your area
and ask them to show you how. Talk to your local EAA chapter.
>I've also been poring over the optional equipment catalog I picked up at the
>RVator's meeting held at Van's (I was incredibly impressed by their operation
>and wrote about it on r.a.homebuilt), and I realized that you can spend
>almost as much on the avionics as the airframe, if not more. One thing I was
>curious about was that VM 1000 thing, that engine monitoring system that has
>everything displayed on one 5" square LCD plate. Is it any good? Is it more
>cost effective than a full set of other gauges? or is it overkill?
How much money do you have, When I look at what I want to put into the aircraft
I make a list of the essential stuff I need to get the thing off the ground,
then I have a list of highly desirable and the finally a list of dreamware. By
all means make provision for the fancy stuff in the panel but buy the boring
stuff like Gascolators and Harnesses first. Flying around in a basic VFR
aircraft is a lot more fun than sitting the workshop waiting for the next Pay to
come in. :-)
In relation to the all in one engine instrument - main advantage is space saving
in the panel. As to cost, you have to work that out for yourself.
>Are the prices Van's can get on these things good, or are you all getting
>your instruments from other sources? Are you buying new engines through
>them, or are you all going with used ones? Which is better for a -6, the
>O-320 or the O-360? Why? (In the back of one issue of the newsletter that
>was with the info packet there was an ad for an IO-360-A1A and a note under
>it said that it was not recommended, why?). Is anyone using something like a
>three blade IvoProp? What do you need for flying inverted aside from the
>Christian Oiler and the floppy pickup tube?
All I can say her is shop around, I bought a lot of my basic instruments second
hand from Century Instruments, The prices Vans Quotes are pretty good as far as
Australian prices are concerned.
>After looking more closely at some wing photos, and seeing a couple of planes
>(I saw a -4 in the transient parking at Independence airport in Oregon last
>Friday. It was immaculate. Anyone we know?) it looks like the fuel tank is
>detachable (umpteen million screws). Has anyone lengthened them?
Would not be to hard, but with around 600Nm range the RV6 is pretty good in this
area. We have a guy over here in OZ who is planning to fly over to Oshkosh in a
RV4, He has a rear seat tank ( Detachable) A tank in the forward fuselage, The
whole leading edge is tank along with the Wing tips. This guy is HEAVY!! but he
flies!
>Hmmm, anyone consider Flaperons? (Just an idle question) What would that do
>to the behaviour?
To do a roll in an RV all you have to do is put the stick all the way over to
one side and count to 2 and its all over. Flaperons would be REAL exciting. Why
spoil a good thing!!
>I know that these things are WAY in the future (I still need a place with a
>garage to build it in) but those are the things on my mind. And even though
>all these things are questions about the finished product, I would like to
>say that I do enjoy working with my hands and I'm looking forward to the
>building process.
Who needs a garage?? you have a lounge room don't you? :-) Or are you married??
:-(.
Start the project!! You'll LOVE IT!!!!
best of luck
John Morrissey
RV6 VH-HRV
RV4 VH-???
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lackerma(at)rad.rpslmc.edu (lauren ackerman) |
Randall Henderson asked the following:
>Right now I'm leaning towards the -6A, because I can't really come up with
>too many reasons not to, other than I think the -6 is cooler. Which, to me
>anyway, is a pretty compelling reason in itself. But there are a couple of
>other points that nag at me. One is that I've heard the -6A landing gear
>installation is quite a bit more hassle to build. Another is that the -6A
>gear extends up into the floor of the cockpit. Anyone who has one find this
>annoying at all? ...
I had a ride in Van's 6A and did find that my fat thighs were
bothered by the gear extending into the floor initially, but while
flying ignored it. I do wonder what the effect would be in the long
run. I too am flipping back and forth between the 6 and 6A.
By the way, I would like to hear more from the tail dragger
crowd about their cross wind experience. I learned in a Champ
and almost ground looped a number of times in the beginning. However
most of my time has been in tri-geared airplanes.
laurens ackerman 6?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
mauser(at)claris.com
| Subject: | Re[2]: Hello list |
Lots of good advice there.
As to local builders, we have our 70+ member Portland RVators right here.
Send me your address/phone # and you'll get the next newsletter.
Don't miss our annual Northwest RV Fly-in at Scappoose Or, 10am Saturday June
11.
don wentz
Hi Richard,
So many questions!! So Little Time!! :-)
______________________________ Reply Separator _______________________________
__
Subject: Hello list
Date: 16/5/ 0 9:13 PM
>Hi, I joined the list about a week ago. Personally, I'm at the stage where
>the only money I've spent at Van's was the info packet and the video, but I
>already know that eventually they're going to be getting another
ten grand or
>more from me. Gladly.
>I'm sold on the RV-6. It's gorgeous, it's fast, it's slow, it's
sleek. I'm
>having the most wonderful pipe dreams (I even know what design I want to
>paint on it.) I really should try to get a ride in one soon. :-)
You WILL enjoy it! They are a delight to fly! What flying have you
done? A low
time Cessna would do better with the RV-6A, as they are a real pussycat
on the
ground. (Real Pilots fly taildraggers!!!!!!) :-)
>But naturally I have some questions.
>I'm not 100% aware of how Riveting works. I've never driven a rivet I
>understand how the hand tools they show in the video work, and I understand
>the theory, but when it comes to imagining the riveting of things like the
>middle of the wing skins.... How far does the head of the rivet
gun travel?
>Are you holding the top of the rivet all the way into the countersink when
>you pull the trigger, or does the bucking bar push it slightly out of the
>hole and the hammer drives it back in? I'm sure this is all old
hat to those
>of you who have driven thousands of rivets by now, but I'm of the
"there are
>no dumb questions" school. They really should have an example of rivet gun
>riveting in the video, since that's what you have to do the most of.
Van's supplies a fair bit of offcut material with the kit for you
to play with.
Basically all you do is drill the hole in the material you are going
to rivet
together, Debur it, countersink or dimple it, put the rivet in and
put the gun
up against the rivet head, apply the bucking bar to the other side
of the rivet
and pull the trigger for a short burst. Inspect the rivet. (The Avery rivet
gauge is good for this.) If the rivet needs more setting then give
it another
short burst. Best advice I can give you is contact other builders
in your area
and ask them to show you how. Talk to your local EAA chapter.
>I've also been poring over the optional equipment catalog I picked
up at the
>RVator's meeting held at Van's (I was incredibly impressed by their
operation
>and wrote about it on r.a.homebuilt), and I realized that you can spend
>almost as much on the avionics as the airframe, if not more. One
thing I was
>curious about was that VM 1000 thing, that engine monitoring system
that has
>everything displayed on one 5" square LCD plate. Is it any good?
Is it more
>cost effective than a full set of other gauges? or is it overkill?
How much money do you have, When I look at what I want to put into
the aircraft
I make a list of the essential stuff I need to get the thing off the ground,
then I have a list of highly desirable and the finally a list of
dreamware. By
all means make provision for the fancy stuff in the panel but buy the boring
stuff like Gascolators and Harnesses first. Flying around in a basic VFR
aircraft is a lot more fun than sitting the workshop waiting for
the next Pay to
come in. :-)
In relation to the all in one engine instrument - main advantage
is space saving
in the panel. As to cost, you have to work that out for yourself.
>Are the prices Van's can get on these things good, or are you all getting
>your instruments from other sources? Are you buying new engines through
>them, or are you all going with used ones? Which is better for a -6, the
>O-320 or the O-360? Why? (In the back of one issue of the newsletter that
>was with the info packet there was an ad for an IO-360-A1A and a note under
>it said that it was not recommended, why?). Is anyone using something
like a
>three blade IvoProp? What do you need for flying inverted aside from the
>Christian Oiler and the floppy pickup tube?
All I can say her is shop around, I bought a lot of my basic instruments
second
hand from Century Instruments, The prices Vans Quotes are pretty
good as far as
Australian prices are concerned.
>After looking more closely at some wing photos, and seeing a couple
of planes
>(I saw a -4 in the transient parking at Independence airport in Oregon last
>Friday. It was immaculate. Anyone we know?) it looks like the
fuel tank is
>detachable (umpteen million screws). Has anyone lengthened them?
Would not be to hard, but with around 600Nm range the RV6 is pretty
good in this
area. We have a guy over here in OZ who is planning to fly over to
Oshkosh in a
RV4, He has a rear seat tank ( Detachable) A tank in the forward
fuselage, The
whole leading edge is tank along with the Wing tips. This guy is
HEAVY!! but he
flies!
>Hmmm, anyone consider Flaperons? (Just an idle question) What
would that do
>to the behaviour?
To do a roll in an RV all you have to do is put the stick all the
way over to
one side and count to 2 and its all over. Flaperons would be REAL
exciting. Why
spoil a good thing!!
>I know that these things are WAY in the future (I still need a place with a
>garage to build it in) but those are the things on my mind. And
even though
>all these things are questions about the finished product, I would like to
>say that I do enjoy working with my hands and I'm looking forward to the
>building process.
Who needs a garage?? you have a lounge room don't you? :-) Or are
you married??
:-(.
Start the project!! You'll LOVE IT!!!!
best of luck
John Morrissey
RV6 VH-HRV
RV4 VH-???
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-6 vs RV-6A |
The plot thickens...
I've talked with Bowhay, and he will make the floats work for the 6A,
but it will probably be more expensive more complicated, require more
work to fit the kit, and require more time to switch from float to
gear and back. Which is one of the major things I'm interested in! 4
hours of work any time at all if you've ever worked on other planes!!!
For me the choice was simple, I didn't have any time in tail draggers
when I started building my airplane...Hmmm, well maybe I had 2 hours
in a Christen Eagle, but I never did any landings. I thought when
the 6A came out it was damn ugly compared to the conventional gear. I
sat in both planes up at Vans and thought the visibility in the three
point attitude wasn't bad either (But I was no expert then)
I went for the plane that I would be the happiest flying! Now I've
got about 1000 hrs TT in all kinds of planes & copters, with 200+ in
tail draggers. I've flown the 6 and 6A and the 6 lands very easy like
a real airplane. To me the sitting in the 6A cockpit with a stick
it's just not natural to have a nose wheel!!
Anyway, there is one reason why I would consider build the 6A nose
wheel plane! And that is if I ever go to sell the thing I think for
the SAME equipment and craftsmanship of airplane I could get an easy
$10,000 more for the nose wheel plane!! Pilots now a days are just
plane scared of tail draggers. People that build airplanes want tail
draggers people that buy airplanes want nose draggers.
I want my airplane for me! I want to be able to put floats on it,
That are simple (simple is safe) I want an RV-6!!
Chris.
RV-6 #21390
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Ok I admit, even though I've been signing my e-mail "RV-6", I'm one of
those who's still on the fence about this (as Don knows). At this point
I'm a month or so from ordering the fuse so I guess I'd better decide pretty
soon. So I'll pour out my thoughts, for anyone who cares or wants to comment.
I know that in the end it's an individual choice that one has to make oneself,
but it's worth discussion.
Right now I'm leaning towards the -6A, because I can't really come up with
too many reasons not to, other than I think the -6 is cooler. Which, to me
anyway, is a pretty compelling reason in itself. But there are a couple of
other points that nag at me. One is that I've heard the -6A landing gear
installation is quite a bit more hassle to build. Another is that the -6A
gear extends up into the floor of the cockpit. Anyone who has one find this
annoying at all? The only other thing is the possibility for a float
installation, which I hope to do someday. I know that Eustace Bowhay is
working on a -6A float conversion, but since it's not actually DONE yet I
worry about that, as well as the fact that in general, a conventional gear
configuration lends itself to float conversion better than a tri-gear.
As far as the pilot skills involved, I can't say I'm really worried about
being able to handle a tailwheel, I have about 25 hours of tailwheel time
and currently fly a Champion Citabria that I have a share in, so I'm by no
means an expert tailwheel pilot but I'm not a complete novice either. Even so,
do I really want to have the extra worry of having to be that much more on
top of the thing when landing in with a stiff crosswind? I just don't know...
Randall Henderson
RV-6(A?F?)
Left spar in the jig, leading edge skin drilled, tank under construction
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: RV-6 vs RV-6A |
RV6??er's
I selected a 6A due to my training on 150s, and why make things
harder than they have to be?? Why risk an expensive groundloop just to
prove you are a real man?? If you really need a taildragger to operate off
short, rough strips, then do it, otherwise go for the safer 6A. [BTW. I
have been checked out in a Citabria and a Super Cub towplane, and own a
taildragger sailplane with a belly towhook]
I have ridden in a local RV6A (Lee Williams - N131LH, our first
South Bay completion), and Lee covered his gear legs with carpet, and I
found no interference with my fat thighs (I'm 5-11 and 210 #, a typical,
overweight homebuilder!). The RV6 has plenty of headroom, so perhaps the
cushions during Laurens' flight were not adjusted correctly to avoid leg
interference with the gear legs??
One item though. Lee did not use the upright from the base of the
instrument panel to the floor. He mounted his engine controls horizontally
on a small subpanel under the main panel. This does give more leg room,
but also gives the impression of a LOT more leg room.
just my $0.02 ... Not intending to insult the real men out there ... Gil
P.S. Lee altitude tested his RV6A (180HP and constant speed prop) the
other week, and reached 19,700 ft. At 12,000 ft he still has 1000 fpm
climb. So leave room in your RV for an oxygen bottle and OxySaver nasal
cannulas .... it's the only way to go for long distance flights. If anyone
needs more info on oxygen setups, I have a lot of experience from my
sailplane setups .. almost every flight out in the West needs oxygen.
>Randall Henderson asked the following:
>
>>Right now I'm leaning towards the -6A, because I can't really come up with
>>too many reasons not to, other than I think the -6 is cooler. Which, to me
>>anyway, is a pretty compelling reason in itself. But there are a couple of
>>other points that nag at me. One is that I've heard the -6A landing gear
>>installation is quite a bit more hassle to build. Another is that the -6A
>>gear extends up into the floor of the cockpit. Anyone who has one find this
>>annoying at all? ...
>
>
>I had a ride in Van's 6A and did find that my fat thighs were
>bothered by the gear extending into the floor initially, but while
>flying ignored it. I do wonder what the effect would be in the long
>run. I too am flipping back and forth between the 6 and 6A.
>By the way, I would like to hear more from the tail dragger
>crowd about their cross wind experience. I learned in a Champ
>and almost ground looped a number of times in the beginning. However
>most of my time has been in tri-geared airplanes.
>
>
> laurens ackerman 6?
---
Gil Alexander - Information Super Highway Address
| Internet : gil(at)rassp.hac.com
Hughes Aircraft Company | UUCP : ..!usc!hac2arpa!rassp!gil
Bldg R01 M/S B505 | Voice : (310) 334-7840
PO Box 92426 | RASSP Hot Line: (310) 334-5404
Los Angeles, CA 90009 | RASSP Fax : (310) 334-1672
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-6 vs RV-6A |
>Randall Henderson asked the following:
>>Right now I'm leaning towards the -6A, because I can't really come up with
>>too many reasons not to, other than I think the -6 is cooler. Which, to me
>>anyway, is a pretty compelling reason in itself. But there are a couple of
>>other points that nag at me. One is that I've heard the -6A landing gear
>>installation is quite a bit more hassle to build. Another is that the -6A
>>gear extends up into the floor of the cockpit. Anyone who has one find this
>>annoying at all? ...
>I had a ride in Van's 6A and did find that my fat thighs were
>bothered by the gear extending into the floor initially, but while
>flying ignored it. I do wonder what the effect would be in the long
>run. I too am flipping back and forth between the 6 and 6A.
>By the way, I would like to hear more from the tail dragger
>crowd about their cross wind experience. I learned in a Champ
>and almost ground looped a number of times in the beginning. However
>most of my time has been in tri-geared airplanes.
> laurens ackerman 6?
Laurens, if it was Van's blue -6A, his seat pads are pretty spartan, might
have contributed.
Just think of it this way: If you have any doubt at all, the -6A is for
you.
I really thought this would generate more traffic than it did :-) , it
usually becomes an emotional subject. The RV in general is a fairly
docile tail dragger, once on the ground. The problem appears to be the
touchdown itself. In a TCraft, I found that if you just hold it right
above the ground until it is so slow it drops on, it stays on. But, in an
RV you can't do that, or the tail will hit first, which causes a rather
exciting launch off of the mains, followed by (hopefully) a quick addition
of throttle to catch it before the next, bad bounce.
I have ridden thru and watched a lot of RV landings, mostly taildragger.
Most, even the factory pilot, tend to wheel land them as that final flare
is too difficult if not done just right. At our latest bldrs group
meeting last saturday at a grass strip, 3 of the 4 taildraggers bounced
all over the place, as they were trying to do the 'flared' shorter field
landing instead of the wheel landing. The -6A that was there just held it
off and greased it in in a nice easy flare. Why was he smoother? Because
the -6A can be flared much deeper (higher angle of attack) than the -4 or
-6.
So, the -6A is not only easier ON the ground, but is easier to GET ONTO
the ground.
What does all of this mean? Simply that if you have any trepidation at
all about the taildragger, don't do it. In fact, I'll bet you that in the
next couple of years, you will be in the majority at fly-ins if you park
in the '-6A section', than if you are in a -6.
Oh yes, one other thing that Randall & I had discussed but he forgot to
mention. Each of our wives (mine is 30ish, his probably close to that)
has expressed interest in learning to fly, at least to some level of
proficiency, once we have 'our own' airplanes. Which would you rather
send a student pilot up in? A taildragger or a nosedragger (don't forget
that you have put $30K and several years of loving effort into building
that thing)? hmmm......
Too late for me, what about you Randall????
don wentz
BTW - No where in that discussion did I say that 'you are an idiot' if you
build a -6. Not the point. I just have talked to a lot of builders who
are 'on the fence', and make the decision based on 'machismo factor',
rather than solid thought. Just trying to add to the pro/con list.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV-6 vs RV-6A |
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
Chris Schulte sez:
> Anyway, there is one reason why I would consider build the 6A nose
> wheel plane! And that is if I ever go to sell the thing I think for
> the SAME equipment and craftsmanship of airplane I could get an easy
> $10,000 more for the nose wheel plane!! Pilots now a days are just
> plane scared of tail draggers. People that build airplanes want tail
> draggers people that buy airplanes want nose draggers.
Maybe. But that's not the way it works with Piper Pacers and Tri-Pacers.
Ever compare the prices of them?
Earl Brabandt N66VR (RV-6 under construction)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV-6 vs RV-6A |
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
Don Wenz sez...
> I really thought this would generate more traffic than it did :-) , it
> usually becomes an emotional subject. The RV in general is a fairly
> docile tail dragger, once on the ground. The problem appears to be the
> touchdown itself. In a TCraft, I found that if you just hold it right
> above the ground until it is so slow it drops on, it stays on. But, in an
> RV you can't do that, or the tail will hit first, which causes a rather
> exciting launch off of the mains, followed by (hopefully) a quick addition
> of throttle to catch it before the next, bad bounce.
Ok Don, if you want traffic, here's my two cents! I've heard this complaint
from others, including Bill Benedict, and I really don't see it. I've
landed the -6 and -6A. Most recently Eustace Bohay's -6 on wheels. I'd
recommend full flaps for three-point landings (something else that some
RV folks seem to fear). The airplane will stall in a more nose down
attitude with full flaps allowing a three-point attitude if you don't
rush things too much with a rapid pull and an accelerated (more nose
high) stall. It's okay if the tail hits just a little before the mains--
maybe even desirable. Zero flaps or partial flaps will be more nose
high at stall. Partial flaps may be possibly part of the problem people
are experiencing. I might add that I've seen Van three-point the aircraft
beautifully. All it takes is the right technique and maybe a little
practice. I don't perceive the RV to be any more difficult to three-point
than a T-Craft--maybe even a little easier. (I have about 400 hours in
T-Crafts.)
> I have ridden thru and watched a lot of RV landings, mostly taildragger.
> Most, even the factory pilot, tend to wheel land them as that final flare
> is too difficult if not done just right. At our latest bldrs group
> meeting last saturday at a grass strip, 3 of the 4 taildraggers bounced
> all over the place, as they were trying to do the 'flared' shorter field
> landing instead of the wheel landing.
Well, in general, if your gonna' do a wheel landing, do a wheel landing.
If you're gonna' do a three-point, go for a full-stall three-point with
the requisite higher speed. Anything in between doesn't usually work
out as well. This is because the attitude of the aircraft in a wheel
landing should be such that you can "pin the nose" after touchdown
with a little forward pressure. It's certainly possible to put the
mains on the ground at any attitude between slightly nose-down and
three-point, but it takes a fine touch at the "in-between" attitudes
and virtually zero vertical speed at touchdown--it's difficult! The
"in-between" attitudes usually result in too much vertical descent
speed, causing the tail to be forced down at impact, causing the angle
of attack of the wing to rapidly increase, causing the airplane to
fly again, causing the pilot to lower the nose, causing too much vertical
speed, causing the tail to be forced down at impact...ga-bounce, ga-bounce,
ga-bounce... Even if the bounce isn't high, a rocking or porpoising
motion often develops in the ground roll.
> Which would you rather
> send a student pilot up in? A taildragger or a nosedragger (don't forget
> that you have put $30K and several years of loving effort into building
> that thing)? hmmm......
This was probably the biggest consideration for me. Teaching a girlfriend
to fly from scratch to Private Pilot in my T-Craft was very stressful.
Actually, the dual flights weren't bad--even without brakes on my side,
but her solos always had me sweating. But I'm still pleased I'm building
a Tail Dragger.
You guys will just have to taunt me with the old Navy line as I gracefully
touch down in my three-point attitude, thus validating that I'm at
absolute minimum speed: "flare to land, squat to pee." :-)
Earl Brabandt N66VR (under construction)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
ccm2.hf.intel.com!Don_Wentz(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re[2]: RV-6 vs RV-6A |
Ahhhh, now we're getting somewhere. You're right earl, I also have seen
some fine three pointers in RVs. I agree that it probably is more
technique/ability/training related than design related. Maybe when my -6
is flying you can teach me that full flaps method. If it works well,
maybe just sharing that data will help some of those folks with a
technique problem.
I wonder if the issue is related to the huge numbers of RVs flying now
with less and less ability of Van to demonstrate what obviously works for
him? The sheer numbers of RVs flying guarantees that some of their pilots
won't necessarily know the best ways to do certain things.
Makes for interesting discussion at least.
Find those dimple dies yet?
don w.
Don Wenz sez...
> I really thought this would generate more traffic than it did :-) , it
> usually becomes an emotional subject. The RV in general is a fairly
> docile tail dragger, once on the ground. The problem appears to be the
> touchdown itself. In a TCraft, I found that if you just hold it right
> above the ground until it is so slow it drops on, it stays on. But, in an
> RV you can't do that, or the tail will hit first, which causes a rather
> exciting launch off of the mains, followed by (hopefully) a quick addition
> of throttle to catch it before the next, bad bounce.
Ok Don, if you want traffic, here's my two cents! I've heard this complaint
from others, including Bill Benedict, and I really don't see it. I've
landed the -6 and -6A. Most recently Eustace Bohay's -6 on wheels. I'd
recommend full flaps for three-point landings (something else that some
RV folks seem to fear). The airplane will stall in a more nose down
attitude with full flaps allowing a three-point attitude if you don't
rush things too much with a rapid pull and an accelerated (more nose
high) stall. It's okay if the tail hits just a little before the mains--
maybe even desirable. Zero flaps or partial flaps will be more nose
high at stall. Partial flaps may be possibly part of the problem people
are experiencing. I might add that I've seen Van three-point the aircraft
beautifully. All it takes is the right technique and maybe a little
practice. I don't perceive the RV to be any more difficult to three-point
than a T-Craft--maybe even a little easier. (I have about 400 hours in
T-Crafts.)
> I have ridden thru and watched a lot of RV landings, mostly taildragger.
> Most, even the factory pilot, tend to wheel land them as that final flare
> is too difficult if not done just right. At our latest bldrs group
> meeting last saturday at a grass strip, 3 of the 4 taildraggers bounced
> all over the place, as they were trying to do the 'flared' shorter field
> landing instead of the wheel landing.
Well, in general, if your gonna' do a wheel landing, do a wheel landing.
If you're gonna' do a three-point, go for a full-stall three-point with
the requisite higher speed. Anything in between doesn't usually work
out as well. This is because the attitude of the aircraft in a wheel
landing should be such that you can "pin the nose" after touchdown
with a little forward pressure. It's certainly possible to put the
mains on the ground at any attitude between slightly nose-down and
three-point, but it takes a fine touch at the "in-between" attitudes
and virtually zero vertical speed at touchdown--it's difficult! The
"in-between" attitudes usually result in too much vertical descent
speed, causing the tail to be forced down at impact, causing the angle
of attack of the wing to rapidly increase, causing the airplane to
fly again, causing the pilot to lower the nose, causing too much vertical
speed, causing the tail to be forced down at impact...ga-bounce, ga-bounce,
ga-bounce... Even if the bounce isn't high, a rocking or porpoising
motion often develops in the ground roll.
> Which would you rather
> send a student pilot up in? A taildragger or a nosedragger (don't forget
> that you have put $30K and several years of loving effort into building
> that thing)? hmmm......
This was probably the biggest consideration for me. Teaching a girlfriend
to fly from scratch to Private Pilot in my T-Craft was very stressful.
Actually, the dual flights weren't bad--even without brakes on my side,
but her solos always had me sweating. But I'm still pleased I'm building
a Tail Dragger.
You guys will just have to taunt me with the old Navy line as I gracefully
touch down in my three-point attitude, thus validating that I'm at
absolute minimum speed: "flare to land, squat to pee." :-)
Earl Brabandt N66VR (under construction)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: RV-6 vs RV-6A |
OK, you guys, I've had this discussion with myself many times.
I am building a 6 and have no experience in taildraggers.
The taildragger appeals to me for a lot of reasons, but I don't
want to end up with a plane that is going to be difficult for me
to handle. On the other hand, there are lots of traildraggers
flying, so how hard can it be?
Is there something unusually unique about the handling of a -6
as compared to other taildraggers?
I've never flown in a -6 or -6A. Is there anyone in the Central
Florida area who would consider offering me a ride?
Thanks ya'll (expecially Don)
Carl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil |
| Subject: | Re: RV-6 vs RV-6A |
My thoughts? Get a -4!
I wanted a single-seater, My wife wanted side-by-side,
so we compromised. That way I can pretend I'm alone
(JUST KIDDING, DINA!).
And we all squat to pee, by the way. I'll build a -6A
when Van's comes up with a tailhook mod and gear that
can take a 700 fpm sink rate at touchdown! The trick
is to just be careful where you squat.
Dave Hyde
davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
"3/4 mile, call the ball"
"RV ball, oh-point-one"
"Roger Ball!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
| Subject: | Re[4]: RV-6 vs RV-6A |
Hey, I've flown alot of airplane, and though I don't have much stick
time in RV's I have flown the 4, 6, and 6A. (I've flown the 6 & 6A
from the left and right seat the 4 I've only flown from the back seat
but still got my hand at a few landings)
What I'm trying to say is in my opinion the 6 is very easy to land and
taxi. I found it easier to hope in and land the 6 then the 6A. The
tail dragger feels natural.
Everyone needs to make there own choice. If in doubt, there are
enough flying now - see if you can bum a ride. Most of the people
I've asked in the past have been more then happy to take me for a
spin! Hell most people wouldn't even let me treat them to a few
gallons of 100 after I logged 30 min. on the stick.
For me it's the taildragger, always has been even when I didn't have
any tail wheel time. You'll learn to fly it! Especially after
rebuilding it from the third or fourth ground loop :)
Chris.
RV-6 #21390
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
OK, you guys, I've had this discussion with myself many times.
I am building a 6 and have no experience in taildraggers.
The taildragger appeals to me for a lot of reasons, but I don't
want to end up with a plane that is going to be difficult for me
to handle. On the other hand, there are lots of traildraggers
flying, so how hard can it be?
Is there something unusually unique about the handling of a -6
as compared to other taildraggers?
I've never flown in a -6 or -6A. Is there anyone in the Central
Florida area who would consider offering me a ride?
Thanks ya'll (expecially Don)
Carl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-6 vs RV-6A |
Wow, I had no idea that I had stumbled onto such a religious issue. :-)
In my case, I'm working on my licence at Evergreen Field (Vancouver
Washington, which is near Portland) And I first started out in a T-craft,
but switched over to a C-150 when we started doing things that required
radios and nav gear. (I've got something like 0.7 hours to go before I've
got all the solo time I need in). I've actually been itching to get back in
the T-craft just to keep my taildragger technique fresh. The funny thing is,
because of all the wheel shimmy in the 150, I land it almost the same way,
nose high, stall warning blaring, mains first, and keeping the nosewheel up
until I can't any more.
(One thing that worrys me about the freely swivelling nosewheel in the -6A is
what if it starts wobbling like the bad wheel on a shopping cart?)
What people are saying about landing an RV-6 sounds to me like what I've
heard about landing a DC-3, that the attitude on the ground is shallower than
the full stall attitude. Virtually requiring wheel landings (And the danger
of a nose-over).
Whether or not touching the tailwheel first is okay is really critical with
regard to the airspeed and rate of sink. In some cases the loss of AOA and
lift as the tail gets pushed up will bring it down gently, in others it will
make the mains slam down and bounce you back into the air in a full stall.
There are ways of altering the gear geometry to affect this, has anyone done
any research on how the gear is configured on the RV taildraggers to see if
there are any possible improvements?
Hmmm, I think some of the other questions I asked in the first note got lost
somewhere....
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: RV-6 vs RV-6A |
Good compromise! Actually, it's a good thing I hadn't flown in a -4
before I started my -6, as it would have made the decision tougher. I
like the side/side and baggage capability of the -6, but the visibility
and centerline seating of the -4 is awesome.
don w.
My thoughts? Get a -4!
I wanted a single-seater, My wife wanted side-by-side,
so we compromised. That way I can pretend I'm alone
(JUST KIDDING, DINA!).
And we all squat to pee, by the way. I'll build a -6A
when Van's comes up with a tailhook mod and gear that
can take a 700 fpm sink rate at touchdown! The trick
is to just be careful where you squat.
Dave Hyde
davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
"3/4 mile, call the ball"
"RV ball, oh-point-one"
"Roger Ball!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[4]: RV-6 vs RV-6A |
Sorry Carl, didn't want to mess you up. As Earl pointed-out, the -6 IS
NOT difficult as taildraggers go, it just takes some technique/training
(all taildraggers have their own unique traits). I have talked to people
who have 0 taildragger time who did first flights in -6s (not recommended,
of course). It's just fun to have this 'discussion' from time to time, as
it gets all the pros/cons out on the table and can help (hinder?) people's
decisions.
I agree with those that think the -6 is sleeker looking, but that isn't a
good enough reason to make a long term decision, right?
dw
OK, you guys, I've had this discussion with myself many times.
I am building a 6 and have no experience in taildraggers.
The taildragger appeals to me for a lot of reasons, but I don't
want to end up with a plane that is going to be difficult for me
to handle. On the other hand, there are lots of traildraggers
flying, so how hard can it be?
Is there something unusually unique about the handling of a -6
as compared to other taildraggers?
I've never flown in a -6 or -6A. Is there anyone in the Central
Florida area who would consider offering me a ride?
Thanks ya'll (expecially Don)
Carl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Dimensions of Parts as supplied |
Well, I've completed my first minor assembly, the HS rear spar. A fine
looking thing it is, too. Now that I am starting my front spar, I am
wondering just how accurate the parts supplied by Van's are. Is it
necessary to measure and trim each piece, or are they ready to use as-is?
A case in point is the HS-602 front spar half. The length dimension given
in the plans is something like 49 7/16 overall, the bend at the narrow end
3/4 " from the end which would make the location of the bend at 48 11/16.
The point is, I am not exactly sure what the overall length of this piece
is supposed to be, but can I count on it being correct as
supplied without having to check each piece against the drawings? I
realize of course, that some parts like skins are supplied oversize and
must be trimmed, but I assume that trimming will be mentioned in the
instructions if required.
When drilling the pilot holes in my HS610 and 614 the drill wandered off a
bit and a few holes are maybe 1/16" off of center. I don't consider this
significant, but does anyone else know better? I want to maintain a high
standard of workmanship, but I don't want to worry about stuff
that has only cosmetic significance. Yes, I should have used a drill press
but after all the other tools plus the kit I just can't afford one right
now. I did drill my 409s and rib lightening holes on a friend's press
though. I don't think that anymore drill press work is required for a
while but I will definitely get one as soon as I need to.
Regarding hand squeezing vs gun riveting 1/8 rivets: I have the TATCO 2"
squeezer from Avery and I found it a real pain (literally!) to squeeze
those rear spar rivets, plus I didn't get a very symmetrical bucked head
anyway. So I tried the gun and after a couple of tries, wow what a
difference! It was faster, easier AND better than the hand squeezer, IMHO.
Regards to All,
Curt Reimer
P.S. I took about 22 hours to build the rear spar, and the kit supposedly
takes 2-3000 hours to finish, so I am 1 % finished already!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lackerma(at)rad.rpslmc.edu (lauren ackerman) |
Thanks for all the comments on the tail dragger versus
the trigear. It all seems to boil down to the following:
1) Some think a tail dragger is better looking
(eye of beholder or something like that!)
2) The gear is easier to build on the 6.
3) The 6 can ground loop and the 6A does not.
4) The 6 is 4-5 mph faster...I used to hear that
but recently that has not been included as an
argument for the 6.
5) The 6A might be easier to sell. There is some
doubt about that statment.
6) In short rough field landings the 6 is best.
any others?
thanks for the conversation.
laurens ackerman RV-6(?)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re: Dimensions of Parts as supplied |
I am
wondering just how accurate the parts supplied by Van's are. Is it
necessary to measure and trim each piece, or are they ready to use as-is?
In 95% of the parts they are. You can just never be sure which 5% are not
quite right. You should measure each piece against the plans.
A case in point is the HS-602 front spar half. The length dimension given
in the plans is something like 49 7/16 overall, the bend at the narrow end
3/4 " from the end which would make the location of the bend at 48 11/16.
The point is, I am not exactly sure what the overall length of this piece
is supposed to be, but can I count on it being correct as
supplied without having to check each piece against the drawings?
I don't remember if this piece matched the plans, but I did have to trim
its length slightly to get everything lined up. You almost need to make a
temporary fixture to get it right unless you like trigonometry. Best method:
on a workboard secure the rear spar with the ribs clecoed to it, making sure the
end rib is perpendicular to the spar. Draw a line perpendicular to the rear
spar at its center. Lay the a front spar against the ribs; if the inboard end
does not come right to the perpendicular line, trim it as required.
When drilling the pilot holes in my HS610 and 614 the drill wandered off a
bit and a few holes are maybe 1/16" off of center. I don't consider this
significant, but does anyone else know better? I want to maintain a high
standard of workmanship, but I don't want to worry about stuff
that has only cosmetic significance. Yes, I should have used a drill press
but after all the other tools plus the kit I just can't afford one right
now. I did drill my 409s and rib lightening holes on a friend's press
though. I don't think that anymore drill press work is required for a
while but I will definitely get one as soon as I need to.
1/16" is not a problem here, but you can do as well by hand as with a drill
press. Use split point dirll bits, start slow, use a light-weight electric or
air drill, and have plenty of light. A high-powered pair of those cheap reading
glasses from the drug store will help too. Keep at it. After 20,000 holes you
will be pretty good. The main advantage of a drill press is that the holes will
be perpendicular to the material, and this helps a lot when riveting thick
stuff.
Regarding hand squeezing vs gun riveting 1/8 rivets: I have the TATCO 2"
squeezer from Avery and I found it a real pain (literally!) to squeeze
those rear spar rivets, plus I didn't get a very symmetrical bucked head
anyway. So I tried the gun and after a couple of tries, wow what a
difference! It was faster, easier AND better than the hand squeezer, IMHO.
The Avery tool will work even better.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Just some added comments ..... Gil Alexander, RV6A #20701
>Thanks for all the comments on the tail dragger versus
>the trigear. It all seems to boil down to the following:
>
>1) Some think a tail dragger is better looking
> (eye of beholder or something like that!)
>
>2) The gear is easier to build on the 6.
***
My fuselage kit (3 weeks ago) came with the new, pre-drilled gear legs.
This probably makes both options easier now than the old RV6 option .....
After Proseal, the gear leg drilling got the most complaints.
***
>
>3) The 6 can ground loop and the 6A does not.
>
>4) The 6 is 4-5 mph faster...I used to hear that
> but recently that has not been included as an
> argument for the 6.
>
>5) The 6A might be easier to sell. There is some
> doubt about that statment.
***
No-one has mentioned it yet, but Van was very clever (cheap??) in
designing the 6A modification to the original design. The only basic
fuselage structural difference is the added doubler on the fuse. side were
the 6A main mount assy. bolts on. Add this to a 6 if you build one, and a
later change from taildragger to nosegear will be easy to accomplish. Buy
new main gear assemblies, change the motor mount, add the nose leg, remove
the tailwheel, some glass work and it's done.
***
>
>6) In short rough field landings the 6 is best.
>
> any others?
>
> thanks for the conversation.
>
>
> laurens ackerman RV-6(?)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Dimensions of Parts as supplied |
>
> Well, I've completed my first minor assembly, the HS rear spar. A fine
> looking thing it is, too.
That's GREAT to hear! Seems like too many of those first parts go more
like: "Well, I've completed my SECOND HS spar, and it looks fine, except...."
> Now that I am starting my front spar, I am
> wondering just how accurate the parts supplied by Van's are. Is it
> necessary to measure and trim each piece, or are they ready to use as-is?
> A case in point is the HS-602 front spar half. The length dimension given
> in the plans is something like 49 7/16 overall, the bend at the narrow end
> 3/4 " from the end which would make the location of the bend at 48 11/16.
> The point is, I am not exactly sure what the overall length of this piece
> is supposed to be, but can I count on it being correct as
> supplied without having to check each piece against the drawings? I
> realize of course, that some parts like skins are supplied oversize and
> must be trimmed, but I assume that trimming will be mentioned in the
> instructions if required.
I tend to check parts like that, since some of them do tend to be off a bit,
and in some places you need to compensate. And funny you should mention
that particular part -- it just happens to be one that doesn't seem to be
quite right, but due to the geometry of the thing it's hard to tell without
somehow jigging it up to the exact angle it will be once it's attached.
The problem that I and a couple of other local builders encountered was that
once we built up the forward spar and set it to the correct angle, the
dimension from end to end was about 1/8" or more longer than the main spar.
So after attaching it to the ribs and main spar, the counterweight arms were
splayed out a bit af the forward end. You can deal with this by 1) trying to
anticipate it by jigging it up and trimming the inboard ends as needed before
riveting the center section together, 2) Cutting off the end tabs after the
fact and fabricating and riveting new ones on to the correct length, or 3)
Making a "flute" in the gap between the tab and the web at the outboard ends
of the HS-601s to "shrink" the length a bit. You'll need some narrow fluting
pliers for this. I did #3, but I think #2 would be better (sarier for a new
builder, since you're -- gasp! -- modifying the part, but it's really no big
deal), but of course #1 would yield the best workmanship.
> When drilling the pilot holes in my HS610 and 614 the drill wandered off a
> bit and a few holes are maybe 1/16" off of center.
The main thing is to maintain minimum edge distance -- 3/16" for 3/32" rivets,
1/4" for 1/8" rivets. 1/16" off isn't bad at that location. Also, be sure
to check for clearance with other parts, as when drilling the HS skin to the
aft spar adjacent to the spar stiffener strips -- it's easy to get too
close to the strips and not be able to dimple the spar, or even to buck a
rivet there! In fact I recommend countersinking those rivets, even if you're
dimpling the rest of your HS skin, since there's so little clearance there.
> Yes, I should have used a drill press
> but after all the other tools plus the kit I just can't afford one right
> now
Naah, I tried that but soon found that it's overkill. Save the drill press
for the stuff where it's really needed, like lightening holes, and practice
your hand drilling technique. Also, did you catch the earlier discussion
about drill bits? Be sure you have split points and they won't wander as
much. Use a center punch where it really matters.
> Regarding hand squeezing vs gun riveting 1/8 rivets: I have the TATCO 2"
> squeezer from Avery and I found it a real pain (literally!) to squeeze
> those rear spar rivets, plus I didn't get a very symmetrical bucked head
> anyway. So I tried the gun and after a couple of tries, wow what a
> difference! It was faster, easier AND better than the hand squeezer, IMHO.
I agree. I was scared of the gun at first, but soon found I could do a better
job faster with it than the squeezer (in most places anyway). Just takes a
little practice.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Re[4]: RV-6 vs RV-6A |
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
> I agree with those that think the -6 is sleeker looking, but that isn't a
> good enough reason to make a long term decision, right?
>
> dw
Maybe not with women, but with airplanes, yeah it's good enough!
Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com> |
One thing that comes to mind with all the hold drilling is a little device my
dad had which attached to his hand drill. It was a little ring about 5" in
diameter with two half inch posts perpendicular to it. The posts went
through holes in a device that attached between the motor and the chuck. It
essentially turned the hand drill into a little portable drill press. You
could hold the ring hard against a surface and be guaranteed a perpendicular
hole in the right spot. Anybody try something like this?
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
This must be the view of taildragger builder
Hmmm... I like it!
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Thanks for all the comments on the tail dragger versus
the trigear. It all seems to boil down to the following:
1) Some think a tail dragger is better looking
(eye of beholder or something like that!)
2) The gear is easier to build on the 6.
3) The 6 can ground loop and the 6A does not.
4) The 6 is 4-5 mph faster...I used to hear that
but recently that has not been included as an
argument for the 6.
5) The 6A might be easier to sell. There is some
doubt about that statment.
6) In short rough field landings the 6 is best.
any others?
thanks for the conversation.
laurens ackerman RV-6(?)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gracely(at)yoda.nidr.nih.gov |
| Subject: | To drag or not to drag |
Boy,this topic can even bring old lizards like myself out from underneath
the rocks.
In many planes other than VAN's The arguments for the tailwheel include
drag of a nose wheel (my little C120 with 85 hp keeps up with those other
Cessnas), maintenance of the nosewheel, and its vulnerability in rough
field stuff. The drag effect is probably less of an issue in the 6 since
they both boogy.
On the other hand, I remember those initial tailwheel lessons after
learning in a 152. I thought, Why am I doing this? A reasonable person
would realize how user-unfriendly a tailwheel can be and realize there is a
good reason why almost all new aircraft are trikes.
On the "other hand", and after 1000 hrs in tailwheels:
1) tailwheels force a level of landing skill that can, but does not have to
be, acquired in a trike.
2) folks learning in tailwheels do it in the same amount of time.
3) No one has yet commented on the the fun of taxiing in a tailwheel. It
is alive, with personality.
4) How shall I land today, wheely, three point?
5) The pleasure of the inadvertent elegant landing is greater.
6) It is the only way to go.
And the 6 looks cool, while the 6a looks like just another general aviation
airplane.
Rick Gracely. RV6 tail done years ago, and ribs on a wing spar gathering
dust in Chris Moody's basement. The midlife crisis of an old wood
sailboat is almost over, and aluminum chips will again fly!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimensions of Parts as supplied |
On Thu, 19 May 1994, Randall Henderson wrote:
> The main thing is to maintain minimum edge distance -- 3/16" for 3/32" rivets,
> 1/4" for 1/8" rivets. 1/16" off isn't bad at that location. Also, be sure
. Unfortunately, the worst case off center rivet is at one end of the
HS-610 (or 614, can't remember) where the taper and 1/4" radius have
already been machined. Actually, the 1/4" radius is measured from the
center of the 1/8" rivet hole, so really, there is only 3/16 from the edge
of the part to the edge of the hole, according to the plans. Are you
referring to sheet metal with regard to the minimum 1/4" distance from a
1/8 rivet? Or does this apply to the 1/8" thick flanges as well? Would an
extra rivet, say halfway between the last and second last rivet do the
trick? I really DON'T want to have to fabricate a new piece, but I
definitely don't want a substandard assembly.
Incidentally, I used a carpenters square as a drill guide, so I am
reasonably sure I got the holes within a couple of degrees of square. And
I did center punch AND I used a split point bit. The hole started off fine,
but as I drilled though, the hole seemed to progressively move off center.
Very weird. It was a #40 bit, and might be getting a bit dull. I can
compensate somewhat when I redrill the holes to #30 size.
Thanks for all the help guys. This list is the best tool I have.
BTW, I have the Empannage Construction video from Avery, and I have found
it to be extremely helpful. It doesn't have every last detail but it does
show you how to set up your jigs, align the hinge brackets, drill skins,
etc. A real time saver if you don't have any veteran RV builders in the
neighborhood.
Regards,
Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
On 19 May 1994, Gil Alexander wrote:
> No-one has mentioned it yet, but Van was very clever (cheap??) in
> designing the 6A modification to the original design. The only basic
> fuselage structural difference is the added doubler on the fuse. side were
> the 6A main mount assy. bolts on. Add this to a 6 if you build one, and a
> later change from taildragger to nosegear will be easy to accomplish. Buy
> new main gear assemblies, change the motor mount, add the nose leg, remove
> the tailwheel, some glass work and it's done.
>
Hey, this sounds like a good idea. How much does the extra doubler weigh?
Is it behind the CG ?
Regards,
Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
| Subject: | Drill presses (fwd) |
> Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:23:40 -0800
> From: Richard Chandler <claris.com!mauser(at)matronics.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Drill presses
>
> One thing that comes to mind with all the hold drilling is a little device my
> dad had which attached to his hand drill. It was a little ring about 5" in
> diameter with two half inch posts perpendicular to it. The posts went
> through holes in a device that attached between the motor and the chuck. It
> essentially turned the hand drill into a little portable drill press. You
> could hold the ring hard against a surface and be guaranteed a perpendicular
> hole in the right spot. Anybody try something like this?
>
> --
> Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
> --- Don't answer that!
> "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
> scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
> -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
>
>
>
Howdy,
Yep I have one of these gems, got it at Sears years ago. You have to remove
and then replace the chuck. I have tried, using scotch-brite pads, from
Avery, machine turning stainless steel using this device. I seems to
work. So I am thinking of doing my fire wall with these swirls.
Back in my teens, a reallt Cool car har machine turns on the dash, in the
engine compartment, on the full moon hub caps, anywhere and everywhere.
BTW: For those of you just starting on RV-6/6A fuselage read Chapter 12
of the instructions, BEFORE doing your firewall. It shows/recomends
that you bend the top 6" of the firewall foreward. Helps in aligning the
cowl.
Happy Flying folks,
Doug Bloomberg
Broomfield Co (Denver)
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
***
My fuselage kit (3 weeks ago) came with the new, pre-drilled gear legs.
This probably makes both options easier now than the old RV6 option .....
After Proseal, the gear leg drilling got the most complaints.
***
That's right you wimps! No wing rib lightening holes to drill, no gear legs to
drill. Pretty soon you'll have self setting rivets!
don w
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: 6 vs 6A |
>
>
> ***
> My fuselage kit (3 weeks ago) came with the new, pre-drilled gear legs.
> This probably makes both options easier now than the old RV6 option .....
> After Proseal, the gear leg drilling got the most complaints.
> ***
>
> That's right you wimps! No wing rib lightening holes to drill, no gear legs
to
> drill. Pretty soon you'll have self setting rivets!
>
> don w
>
Heard from Van that that's Due on kits shipped after January..
Doug B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "'John H. Henderson'" <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: 6 vs 6A |
>
> That's right you wimps! No wing rib lightening holes to drill, no gear legs
to
> drill. Pretty soon you'll have self setting rivets!
>
> don w
>
I'm kind of disappointed -- no more lightening holes?! :(
Am I really going to need a drill press at all?
John Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
A few days ago someone on this list posted the name and address
of a supplier in Michigan that sells refurbished air tools. I thought
I had archived the message, but I can't find it. Whould whoever posted
that message kindly re-send the address. Thanks in advance...
I have a 4X rivet gun that I have been using for the HS and VS
skeleton. With a high quality air-flow valve on the air inlet, it
works OK on 1/8 rivets, but I have trouble getting consistant shop
heads on 3/32 rivets. A couple of knocks too many and the rivet is
squished, and a couple of knocks too few and the rivet is too tall. I
should have bought a 3X but got a good deal on the 4X and thought I'd
give it a try. It'll be useful for wing spars. I think I'd like to
have a 2X gun because the majority of RV rivets seem to be flush 3/32
rivets, and the 2X seems to me to be a better choice. Comments?
--
Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support,
Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave.Bonorden(at)amd.com (Dave Bonorden) |
| Subject: | Re: Need rivet gun |
> From bill(at)nickel.ucs.sfu.ca Fri May 20 17:04:39 1994
> I think I'd like to
> have a 2X gun because the majority of RV rivets seem to be flush 3/32
> rivets, and the 2X seems to me to be a better choice. Comments?
>
> --
> Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support,
> Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
> bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML
>
I've got a 2X that works great on both 3/32 and 1/8 rivets.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Need rivet gun |
Bill,
You could also try Sid Goldin (209)627-1240 in Visalia, CA.
Make sure you tell him you are building an RV - he really likes RV
builders! Sid started "Kit Aircraft Tools" at Compton Airport, one of the
first suppliers of tools to RV builders, and I believe he invented the
"rivet fan spacing" tool we all use now. Sid is now retired, but since
WWII, he sold air tools to all of the major California aircraft
manufacturers.
When my CP clone 2x rivet gun got the chokes and hiccups (dirt up
the air intake), he fixed it for me. He also modified my air squeezer to a
feathering trigger, and sells C-yokes for them a LOT cheaper than anyone
else. When I last saw him, he had some air drills that were in the shape
of die grinders, and looked like they may be easier to use on such things
as skins.
2x vs. 3x rivet guns??
The local RV builders seem evenly divided between 2x and 3x guns,
and everyone likes the one he is presently using and has got accustomed to.
happy riveting .... Gil Alexander RV6A #20701
>A few days ago someone on this list posted the name and address
>of a supplier in Michigan that sells refurbished air tools. I thought
>I had archived the message, but I can't find it. Whould whoever posted
>that message kindly re-send the address. Thanks in advance...
>
>I have a 4X rivet gun that I have been using for the HS and VS
>skeleton. With a high quality air-flow valve on the air inlet, it
>works OK on 1/8 rivets, but I have trouble getting consistant shop
>heads on 3/32 rivets. A couple of knocks too many and the rivet is
>squished, and a couple of knocks too few and the rivet is too tall. I
>should have bought a 3X but got a good deal on the 4X and thought I'd
>give it a try. It'll be useful for wing spars. I think I'd like to
>have a 2X gun because the majority of RV rivets seem to be flush 3/32
>rivets, and the 2X seems to me to be a better choice. Comments?
>
>--
>Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support,
>Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
>bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Dimensions of Parts as supplied |
> Actually, the 1/4" radius is measured from the
>center of the 1/8" rivet hole, so really, there is only 3/16 from the edge
>of the part to the edge of the hole, according to the plans. Are you
>referring to sheet metal with regard to the minimum 1/4" distance from a
>1/8 rivet? Or does this apply to the 1/8" thick flanges as well? Would an
>extra rivet, say halfway between the last and second last rivet do the
>trick?
Minimum edge distance is measured from the center of the hole, not the edge.
You plan your hole locations before you drill them, when only the center
location is obvious.
The purpose of keeping a minimum edge distance is to keep the material from
splitting there; as the rivet is driven it expands in the hole and puts a lot of
sideways force on the material. A split will not occur immediately, and may
never occur if there is not much vibration or stress in the area. My instincts
tell me a split is just about as likely to occur in a thin piece as a thick
piece since the sideways force per unit area is probably about the same. So, If
you do find you have drilled too close to an edge, just don't put a rivet there.
Adding a second rivet nearby could increase the chance of splitting.
Since bolts and screws do not try to expand the hole, there is no chance of
splitting; however, try to maintain the same edge distances there so the head or
nut does not hang over the edge.
> The hole started off fine,
>but as I drilled though, the hole seemed to progressively move off center.
Very weird. It was a #40 bit, and might be getting a bit dull.
If this happens on some holes and not others it is usually because a chip of
material lodges in one side of the bit tip, a common occurence with a dull bit
or one sharpened improperly. Other things to try: lighter drilling pressure
when starting, use cutting oil, drill bit in the chuck as far as it will go, a
drill with less wobble in its bearings.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
| Subject: | RV Flyin June 4-5 |
Howdy,
There is a RV flyin June 4 and 5th. It is an outgrowth of
the flyins Bob Brasher used to have at his place, near Waco.
Because there are to many RV's to fly safely at Ol' White Knuckle.
So.. It now held at the Jacksonville, Tx Airport. Its SE of Dallas.
Doug Bloomberg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
| Subject: | Re: Need rivet gun |
>
> A few days ago someone on this list posted the name and address
> of a supplier in Michigan that sells refurbished air tools. I thought
> I had archived the message, but I can't find it. Whould whoever posted
> that message kindly re-send the address. Thanks in advance...
>
> I have a 4X rivet gun that I have been using for the HS and VS
> skeleton. With a high quality air-flow valve on the air inlet, it
> works OK on 1/8 rivets, but I have trouble getting consistant shop
> heads on 3/32 rivets. A couple of knocks too many and the rivet is
> squished, and a couple of knocks too few and the rivet is too tall. I
> should have bought a 3X but got a good deal on the 4X and thought I'd
> give it a try. It'll be useful for wing spars. I think I'd like to
> have a 2X gun because the majority of RV rivets seem to be flush 3/32
> rivets, and the 2X seems to me to be a better choice. Comments?
>
> --
> Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support,
> Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
> bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML
>
Howdy Bill,
With a 4X and 2X I think you have hit the problem head on.
The 2X is light and easy to use, I set my wing rivets with a 4X!
Just used Avery's dimple arbor and the extra steel goombas that
fit into the bushings. (One is turned to fit a rivet gun, the other
is short)
Action Air Parts
106 Airport Drive
Port Huron, MI 48074
(810) 364-5885
prices: rebuilt Chicago-Pneumatic $150.00; Ingersol-Rand $95.00
Cleco $95.00
He has 2X, 3X, 4X
Doug Bloomberg
Broomfield, CO (Denver)
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
________________________________________________________________________________
(4.1/SMI-4
.1)
| From: | ksr.com!doug(at)matronics.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: 6 vs 6A |
09:
00:36 am
>
>
> ***
> My fuselage kit (3 weeks ago) came with the new, pre-drilled gear legs.
> This probably makes both options easier now than the old RV6 option .....
> After Proseal, the gear leg drilling got the most complaints.
> ***
>
> That's right you wimps! No wing rib lightening holes to drill, no gear legs
to
> drill. Pretty soon you'll have self setting rivets!
>
> don w
>
Heard from Van that that's Due on kits shipped after January..
Doug B
I'm waiting for the self-assembling firewall, since I don't like jigsaw puzzles
without a picture on them.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave.Bonorden(at)amd.com (Dave Bonorden) |
| Subject: | Self-assembling Kits |
>
> > drill. Pretty soon you'll have self setting rivets!
> >
> > don w
> >
> Heard from Van that that's Due on kits shipped after January..
>
> Doug B
>
> I'm waiting for the self-assembling firewall, since I don't like jigsaw puzzles
> without a picture on them.
>
> FKJ
>
That's nothing! I bought the first self-assembling wing kit! You just leave it
sitting in the garage and after a while it puts itself together (even primes
the insides with whatever primer you leave sitting close to it). The only thing
is, Van wasn't sure how long it would take (being the first, it was experimental).
I've had it 3 years so far and haven't seen any progress, but I'm very optimistic.
A guy came by to see it and he thought that if I got all the junk off the
top of the crate, it might put itself together faster. Makes sense, since it
might need a little more room to work. Hell, I'll bet if I helped it with the
jig, it'd be done in no time!
Dave B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gratclif(at)magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Gregory W. Ratcliff) |
| Subject: | Electric trim drawings |
I just completed the trim tab bracket fab drawing on our RV6A.
Its in .DXF Anyone need a copy?
Greg
Gregory W. Ratcliff
Columbus, Ohio ICBM
In the Air N1697X
On the Air NZ8R
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re: Need rivet gun |
> I think I'd like to
>have a 2X gun because the majority of RV rivets seem to be flush 3/32
>rivets, and the 2X seems to me to be a better choice. Comments?
A 2X gun is best for about 95% of RV work. I have both a 2X and a 3X and
find I use both. The 3X does a much better job anytime I am using a long heavy
rivet set (back riveting wing skins) or on some of the 1/8" rivets. Keep your
4X and try using it for those.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: 6 vs 6A |
> > That's right you wimps! No wing rib lightening holes to drill, no gear legs
to
> > drill. Pretty soon you'll have self setting rivets!
> >
> > don w
> >
> I'm kind of disappointed -- no more lightening holes?! :(
> Am I really going to need a drill press at all?
>
> John Henderson
Us "wimps" still have to cut lightening holes in the empennage ribs, wing
spars, and to cut out the fuel tank access holes, plates and reinforcement
rings. And in some of the fuse bulkheads I think. Though if you have a friend
close by with a drill press I'd think about just borrowing it -- you
definitely need to use one but not all that often.
Randall Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Need rivet gun |
> I think I'd like to
> have a 2X gun because the majority of RV rivets seem to be flush 3/32
> rivets, and the 2X seems to me to be a better choice. Comments?
I have a 2x from Avery and a 3x from somewhere. I use the 2x for
everything. It's smaller and easier to handle and has plenty of kick
for 3/32" and 1/8" rivets. I think you need a 6x if you want to do the
wing spar rivets with a gun. I used the Avery tool with a big (5lb) hammer
and it worked fine and wasn't difficult.
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ERNST(at)UIPHYA.PHYSICS.UIUC.EDU |
| Subject: | compressor, tools |
I'm currently shopping around to set up a shop for my -6A. I found an
air compressor in Sam's Club (Sanborn, Black Max line, 3.5 hp, with either
an 11 or 13 gal. tank, $190-$200). Does anyone out there have any
experience with this brand? Is there any compelling argument for or
against oil-free compressors (how much louder are oil-free ones)? Also,
does Avery or any other high-quality tool vendor have discounts at Oshkosh?
If there's no reason to wait for better prices, I might as well just go
ahead and buy now.
Thanks,
Rick.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Need rivet gun |
>> I think I'd like to
>> have a 2X gun because the majority of RV rivets seem to be flush 3/32
>> rivets, and the 2X seems to me to be a better choice. Comments?
>
>I have a 2x from Avery and a 3x from somewhere. I use the 2x for
>everything. It's smaller and easier to handle and has plenty of kick
>for 3/32" and 1/8" rivets. I think you need a 6x if you want to do the
>wing spar rivets with a gun. I used the Avery tool with a big (5lb) hammer
>and it worked fine and wasn't difficult.
>
>Randall
I drove to Bakersfield (a distance of 100 miles) and used John
Harmon's "Big Bertha" squeezer - available to all RV builders.... But I
blew up my son's pickup in the mountains, and the riveting cost $1200 for a
replacement engine!!
Moral --- use the Avery tool and a big hammer, or buy the anodized
Phlogiston spar!!
Gil Alexander ... RV6A ... #20701
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
| Subject: | Rivet Gun - Van's Ph number |
>> I think I'd like to
>> have a 2X gun because the majority of RV rivets seem to be flush 3/32
>> rivets, and the 2X seems to me to be a better choice. Comments?
>
>I have a 2x from Avery and a 3x from somewhere. I use the 2x for
>everything. It's smaller and easier to handle and has plenty of kick
>for 3/32" and 1/8" rivets. I think you need a 6x if you want to do the
>wing spar rivets with a gun. I used the Avery tool with a big (5lb) hammer
>and it worked fine and wasn't difficult.
>
>Randall
I drove to Bakersfield (a distance of 100 miles) and used John
Harmon's "Big Bertha" squeezer - available to all RV builders.... But I
blew up my son's pickup in the mountains, and the riveting cost $1200 for a
replacement engine!!
Moral --- use the Avery tool and a big hammer, or buy the anodized
Phlogiston spar!!
Gil Alexander ... RV6A ... #20701
Sorry bout the engine, shoulda had a Lycoming!
I strongly disagree with Randall. A $95.00 4X rivet gun using +80lbs
air pressure works great setting the spar rivets.
If any of you have Van's number I could use it.
I'm going to order my Fuselage Kit.
After reflecting and thinking about what was said last week, I think I
will get the RV-6A (It's not as pretty as a RV-6) My main use
will be x-country and local flights. Winds in Colorado can be fierce
and unpredictable. ( I've many a time left my home airport JeffCo,when
there was only 15 gusting to 20 mph winds. Then came back and the winds
were 25-30 mph, usually within 20 or 30 degrees of the runway, though.
A tri-geared plane can handle that type wind while taxiing but it's more
difficult in a tail dragger) I also talked to a Sidewinder builder/flyer
(Tri-geared alum aircraft) he liked it and likes being able to see at a
strange airport.
Other reason, Last Sat. Landed at Centennial (S. of Denver) on 17L in my
friend Mas Yoshida's RV-6. Had to cross 17R to get to the ramp area.
The runway has a berm, it's 100 ft wide, and as we were crossing the nose
blocked the view forward. We almost merged with a Mooney who should'a been
driving a Harley (brain dead pilot) So I figure in a 6A we could have seen
better.
So... The RV-6A isn't as pretty as a RV-6, but either one is one heck of alot
prettier than any SPAM CAN.
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6 A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: To drag or not to drag |
Rick Gracely wrote:
> And the 6 looks cool, while the 6a looks like just another general aviation
> airplane.
I once said much the same thing to Van, and said "Well y'know, when you're
flying it, you can't SEE the nosewheel".
Last weekend I hitched a ride down to Astoria and back with Bill Benedict in
the factory demonstrator RV-6T, and guess what -- Van was right! I have to
say that trip just about made the decision for me. In the air the plane
doesn't know or care where the third wheel is, and landing it was a piece of
cake! But I'm still looking for someone who'll let me land their RV-6 just
so's I can get a feel for both.
Randall Henderson
RV-6 something, or not....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Rivet Gun - Van's Ph number |
I wrote:
> I think you need a 6x if you want to do the
> wing spar rivets with a gun
Doug Bloomberg wrote:
> I strongly disagree with Randall. A $95.00 4X rivet gun using +80lbs
> air pressure works great setting the spar rivets.
Guess I was wrong about that one. Which was why I said "I _think_ you need
a 6x."
> If any of you have Van's number I could use it.
Van's phone number is (503) 647-5117
> So... The RV-6A isn't as pretty as a RV-6, but either one is one heck of alot
> prettier than any SPAM CAN.
Damn straight!
Randall Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle **Matronics** 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: To drag or not to drag |
>--------------
> Rick Gracely wrote:
> > And the 6 looks cool, while the 6a looks like just another general aviation
> > airplane.
>--------------
Okay, so I usually stay out of these kind of dicussions, but...
If you want to talk "cool", and "not just another general-aviation airplane",
and "low-drag", and well, you get the idea, the RV-4 has either -6 or the -6a
beat, hands down... :-)
RV-4 Builder...
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: To drag or not to drag |
Matt Sez:
> Okay, so I usually stay out of these kind of dicussions, but...
>
> If you want to talk "cool", and "not just another general-aviation
> airplane", and "low-drag", and well, you get the idea, the RV-4 has
> either -6 or the -6a beat, hands down... :-)
Yeah, but a -6x has more panel room. (for those who like gadgets)
I like the smoother cowl design, as opposed to the chipmunk cheeks on the
narrow fuses. (Strangely, the DeHaviland Chipmunk doesn't have cheeks).
Also, the nosewheel REQUIRES dual brakes if you want to taxi at all from the
right seat. And a -4 requires the optional rear seat rudder pedals.
(BTW, am I the only one getting a whole bunch of bounce messages from the
list?)
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle **Matronics** 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: To drag or not to drag |
>--------------
> Matt Sez:
> > Okay, so I usually stay out of these kind of dicussions, but...
> >
> > If you want to talk "cool", and "not just another general-aviation
> > airplane", and "low-drag", and well, you get the idea, the RV-4 has
> > either -6 or the -6a beat, hands down... :-)
>
> Yeah, but a -6x has more panel room. (for those who like gadgets)
If the -4 doesn't have enough panel room, then you've probably got too
many instruments!!! :-) Did you know that you can look out the window too?
:-) :-)
>
> I like the smoother cowl design, as opposed to the chipmunk cheeks on the
> narrow fuses. (Strangely, the DeHaviland Chipmunk doesn't have cheeks).
Well, see that's where we differ. Those cowl cheeks are just too cool I think.
Makes me feel like a racer...
I think that the Chipmunk has an inline engine that is mounted upside down,
thuse accounting for the rather smooth cowl.
>
> Also, the nosewheel REQUIRES dual brakes if you want to taxi at all from the
> right seat. And a -4 requires the optional rear seat rudder pedals.
Well, there you go. If you are making good landings, and taxiing at the
right speeds, you shouldn't ever *need* brakes... I guess runnup is a bit of a
trick. ;-)
>
> (BTW, am I the only one getting a whole bunch of bounce messages from the
> list?)
Humm, I got one today, but that's all. If you can, send me a mail message
with all of the bounces in it.
Thanks!!
Matt Dralle
RV-4 Fan.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | twg(at)blink.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278)) |
| Subject: | Trimming spar tips |
Hi all,
Any advice on when in the sequence of things (before or after riveting
skins on, etc.) the 1" extensions left on the wing spars for jigging
should be trimmed off, and what is a good technique to do the trimming
(snips won't work here and I don't feel like filing off an inch of material)?
I seem to have gone brain dead on this one...
Tom Goeddel
RV-6A
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Progress and smoe comments |
In Canada we just had a 3 day weekend, and it was a good weekend for
progress on my RV-4.
Last week I removed the HS from the jig, and prep'd it for touching up
the primer and final skin riveting. I also picked up a pair of proper
Seamer Pliers at a local hardware store (Malco Corp. (sp?) about
$43Cdn. Also looked at the Vise Grip brand, but was not happy with the
rough/sharp edges, and slight bend in the blades on them. ) On Friday
I picked up a 2 Gal Kit of Super Koroporon and a pair of US Industrial
Fluting Pliers at a local aircraft supply shop. I thought the fluting
pliers were a tad expensive ($33Cdn) for their quality, but I used
them lots over the weekend, and thay worked fine.
On Saturday, I moved the compresor out to my back shed, and set up a
temporary outdoor spray booth :-). I re-primed the HS skeleton, and
both HS skins, inside and out using the Super Koroporon. I also
started an assembly line, and using my new hand tools, the scotch brite
wheel, and my steel rulers, I managed to trim, straighten, clean, and
prime ALL the remining empenage skeleton, and structural parts.
On Saturday night I started riveting the HS Left skin. It went OK
using my 4X gun with the pressure turned WAY DOWN, but it is a bit
scary and not very forgiving if you slip a bit. No damage, but a
couple of close calls re-enforces my suspicion that a smaller gun (2X)
would be a much better choice for these 3/32 rivets -- especially when
I start riveting the .016 inch skins. I have machine countersunk my HS
skins (much against the opinions of a few local builders who have not
had great success with machine countersinks). So far my machine
countersunk rivets look great!. Most can barely be felt with the
thumbnail. Touch Wood!. It took a lot of fiddling with the stop
countersink to get those holes correct. I had to discard a
countersink bit because it cut the holes too broad (i.e the angle
was greater then the 100 degrees it was marked as.)
On Sunday I cut the tuning fork end of the VS re-enforcing plate.
First time I used my Unibit (for 1/4 inch radius) . This is a great
tool! I used a Sabre saw to make the long cuts. I had planned to do
these cuts with a friends band saw, but the sabre saw and 10 minutes
with the file and scotch brite worked fine. I spent quite a bit of
time centering the reenforcing plate on the VS rear spar web, then
drilled and clecoed in place with 3/32 clecos.
BTW -- I used a new General brand spring loaded center punch for the
first time. It sure beats using a hammer and a center punch for
marking aluminum. It is faster, as accurate, and can be operated with
one hand. Kind of expensive ($18Cdn) but well worth it.
By Monday night (after doing weekend chores, lawns, etc) I had the VS
re-enforcing plate completely drilled, re-primed and riveted to the VS
spar; the center and lower hinges riveted in place (Note that the
bottom hinge brackets have a wider spacing than the middle and upper
brackets). The bottom enf flush rivets were not as much of a problem
as I feared. Worst part was determining how far up the spar I had to
use flush rivets as this is not clearly marked (am I blind?) on Dwg
6a. Using Dwg 30 and 6a I was able to determine the correct distance.
After the hockey game tonite I should have the upper hinge brackets
riveted in place, and the rest of the VS skeleton C clamped into
place.
Progress seems much faster now than it did on the HS (and more
accurate too). I guess I have gained some experience, comfort with the
Kit, and finally gathered enough suitable tools.
For example, When I was straightening and fluting the HS ribs I used
some fluting blocks that I made from hardwood which I would clamp into
place with the rib in a bench vice and then tap form the flute with a
mallet. It was taking 45 minutes per rib. With the fluting pliers, and
seamer pliers it takes about 5 minutes per rib.
I am re-juvinated and looking forward to more work on the kit.
--
Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support,
Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: To drag or not to drag |
Gee, I'm glad I got this discussion started, i'm really enjoying reading
all your potshots and varying viewpoints. Keep at it! (I'll add some
while I'm at it)
>Yeah, but a -6x has more panel room. (for those who like gadgets)
I've seen plenty of -4s where they obviously NEVER heard of 'limited panel
space' (of course, the end result was 'limited pilot space' :-)
>I like the smoother cowl design, as opposed to the chipmunk cheeks on the
>narrow fuses. (Strangely, the DeHaviland Chipmunk doesn't have cheeks).
I like them both, the -4 cheeks are there for a functional reason. Ever
looked carefully at the profile of a -4 in the nose area and noticed how
'pointy' and 'swept-back' it really is? (Wait a minute, I'm building a
-6!)
>Also, the nosewheel REQUIRES dual brakes if you want to taxi at all from
>the right seat. And a -4 requires the optional rear seat rudder pedals.
But, why taxi from the right seat? The only seat I care about in MY -6 is
the left, MINE. Seriously, I don't feel providing full controls 'to allow
someone else to taxi/land MY RV' a high priority. Selfish? Damn betcha!
After all folks, WE built them.
As for the -4 requiring rear pedals, I have been fortunate enough to be
allowed to do more than a dozen rolls from the back of 2 different RV-4s,
neither of which had or needed rudder. More foot/leg room for the back
seater would be a higher priority, possibly.
>(BTW, am I the only one getting a whole bunch of bounce messages from the
>list?)
I have at least one address that bounces.
Just remember, we all have our own reasons for what we like best, there
isn't always a right or wrong. But it is fun to kick those ideas back and
forth like this.
dw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rivet Gun - Van's Ph number |
If any of you have Van's number I could use it. I'm going to order my
Fuselage Kit.After reflecting and thinking about what was said last
week, I think I will get the RV-6A (It's not as pretty as a RV-6)
So... The RV-6A isn't as pretty as a RV-6, but either one is one heck of
alot prettier than any SPAM CAN.
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6 A
After all those discussions your deciding on the 6A! I just can't let you do
it! You'll be kicking yourself in the but for years to come. I have VAN's
number here but for your own good I'm not going to give it to you. A nose
dragger, what a terrible thing to do.
I never even considered the fact that RV-6A needs dual breaks to taxi... Yuck!
And he was coming along so well...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
| Subject: | Trimming spar tips (fwd) |
> From blink.att.com!twg(at)matronics.com Tue May 24 12:02:41 1994
> From: blink.att.com!twg(at)matronics.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278))
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Tue, 24 May 94 08:12:55 EDT
> Original-From: blink!twg (Tom Goeddel(x5278))
> Message-Id: <9405241212.AA23181(at)blink.att.com>
> Original-To: att!matronics.com!rv-list
> Subject: Trimming spar tips
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Any advice on when in the sequence of things (before or after riveting
> skins on, etc.) the 1" extensions left on the wing spars for jigging
> should be trimmed off, and what is a good technique to do the trimming
> (snips won't work here and I don't feel like filing off an inch of material)?
> I seem to have gone brain dead on this one...
>
> Tom Goeddel
> RV-6A
> t.goeddel(at)att.com
>
Howdy Tom,
One HANDY tool is a $40.00 dremal grinder. Using cutoff wheels which you can
buy, I use the (made of) FIBERGLASS cutting wheels. About $7.50 for 5 wheels.
This little gem is excellent for hard to cut places, ie the holes in the
rear spars for the aileron push/pull tube, etc.
The actual method is make several passes with the wheel over the area to
be cut. It's a very thin wheel and if you try to cut completely through
the alum in one pass you Will, destroy the wheel. So, several passes
each a little deeper will be needed to cut the alum
It's a damn good tool though, wear eye protection anytime you work with
whirring tools, and stuff that can splinter..
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
| Subject: | Re: To drag or not to drag |
I'm with Matt and am an RV-4 fan. But I have already decided my "next"
project (after RV-4 is done) will be a -6A. Maybe then I'll sell the -4
and build a -3 for fun. Alan Tolle seems to have the right idea!!
Richard
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404
Federal Program Manager
Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408
FORE Systems
6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com
Bethesda, MD 20817
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trimming spar tips |
Hi Tom, I never did trim mine, but a die grinder with a cutting wheel
would work. Snips would work although you would have to make several
passes from each direction and the result wouldn't be 'real' clean, but
once you install the tips it would look fine.
But, I wouldn't trim them until the last minute before installing the tips
for the last time, that little tab is handy to have on there.
dw
Hi all,
Any advice on when in the sequence of things (before or after riveting
skins on, etc.) the 1" extensions left on the wing spars for jigging
should be trimmed off, and what is a good technique to do the trimming
(snips won't work here and I don't feel like filing off an inch of material)?
I seem to have gone brain dead on this one...
Tom Goeddel
RV-6A
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: To drag or not to drag (fwd) |
> From ccm2.hf.intel.com!Don_Wentz(at)matronics.com Tue May 24 13:52:43 1994
> Date: Tue, 24 May 94 09:22:48 PST
> From: Don Wentz <ccm2.hf.intel.com!Don_Wentz(at)matronics.com>
> Message-Id: <940524092248_1(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
> To: claris.com!mauser(at)matronics.com, rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re[2]: To drag or not to drag
>
> Gee, I'm glad I got this discussion started, i'm really enjoying reading
> all your potshots and varying viewpoints. Keep at it! (I'll add some
> while I'm at it)
>
>
Neat stuph deleted but not needed here...
>
>
> Just remember, we all have our own reasons for what we like best, there
> isn't always a right or wrong. But it is fun to kick those ideas back and
> forth like this.
>
> dw
>
A couple other reasons for RV-6 over RV-4 or a RV-3.
1) X-country flying. My buddy Larry Vetterman is building a RV-6 (will sell
his RV-4) he needs it for X-Country flying. Says he is tired of
buying sectionals every third trip, wants to put in O-2, needs space
to haul exhaust systems to flyins.
Me, I thought it would be nice to just have room for things like
sectionals. I'm a Dead-reckoning/pilotage kinda flyer. (I fly for fun)
2) The "Honey Factor" If you have your sweetie in the plane an occasional
leg pat is reasurring, fun, keeps you awake, also letting your sweetie
see forward encourages her/him to fly with you more, promoting harmony
in the family unit.
Thanks,
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trimming spar tips |
This is a good question! Here is a good answer.
After all you skins are drilled, but not riveted onto the spar assemble (the
leading edge assemble should be riveted together but not riveted to the spar).
Mark your cut line on the main spar and the rear spar. Cut half quater way
through the rear spar. On the side that your first skin will be riveted to.
Leave the rest to hold the rear spar alignment during riveting This can be
easily cut of prior to attaching the aileron corner bracket. On the main spar
make a about 1/2 inch cut on each side of spare. Use an ordinary hacksaw to
make the cuts at 60 deg to the top surface. You want to cut through the bend
radius and down to the point that leading edge skin covers. If you cut all the
way though the flange you will lose some support strength and your wing may sag
some unmeasurable amount.
After the leading edge and one main skin is in, and your ready to leave the jig
take a pair of snips and make a 30 deg cut from the skin to the end if the cut
line on the surface. With a pair of pliers bend the piece inward and the last
1/4 to 1/2 that is attached will break off! There your done. You can leave the
center piece of spare in tacked. Only the flanges will in the way of attaching
the wing tips.
Chris.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Hi all,
Any advice on when in the sequence of things (before or after riveting
skins on, etc.) the 1" extensions left on the wing spars for jigging
should be trimmed off, and what is a good technique to do the trimming
(snips won't work here and I don't feel like filing off an inch of material)?
I seem to have gone brain dead on this one...
Tom Goeddel
RV-6A
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Trimming spar tips (fwd) |
>Forwarded message:
>>
*** deleted ***
>> Subject: Trimming spar tips
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Any advice on when in the sequence of things (before or after riveting
>> skins on, etc.) the 1" extensions left on the wing spars for jigging
>> should be trimmed off, and what is a good technique to do the trimming
>> (snips won't work here and I don't feel like filing off an inch of material)?
>> I seem to have gone brain dead on this one...
>>
>> Tom Goeddel
>> RV-6A
>> t.goeddel(at)att.com
>>
>
>Howdy Tom,
>
>One HANDY tool is a $40.00 dremal grinder. Using cutoff wheels which you can
>buy, I use the (made of) FIBERGLASS cutting wheels. About $7.50 for 5 wheels.
>This little gem is excellent for hard to cut places, ie the holes in the
>rear spars for the aileron push/pull tube, etc.
>
>The actual method is make several passes with the wheel over the area to
>be cut. It's a very thin wheel and if you try to cut completely through
>the alum in one pass you Will, destroy the wheel. So, several passes
>each a little deeper will be needed to cut the alum
>
>It's a damn good tool though, wear eye protection anytime you work with
>whirring tools, and stuff that can splinter..
>
>Doug Bloomberg
>RV-6A
**** Added comment ****
If you go to a Model Aircraft Hobby store, they have a non-Dremel
brand cut-off wheel available that is about 2 inch diam. and is almost
indestructable, I have used mine a lot on steel parts. It will wear out,
but doesn't break. The brand is "House-of-Balsa", but I think they got
bought out and are now sold under a different name. The model store will
now what you want.
I found the Dremel brand too easy to break, and the 2 inch diam. is
a bit easier too handle than the Dremel 1 inch diam. wheels since it is
larger than the basic diameter of the Dremel tool.
Let me know if you have any trouble finding one, and I will find a
mail order source.
happy cutting ..... Gil Alexander RV6A #20701
---
Gil Alexander - Information Super Highway Address
| Internet : gil(at)rassp.hac.com
Hughes Aircraft Company | UUCP : ..!usc!hac2arpa!rassp!gil
Bldg R01 M/S B505 | Voice : (310) 334-7840
PO Box 92426 | RASSP Hot Line: (310) 334-5404
Los Angeles, CA 90009 | RASSP Fax : (310) 334-1672
________________________________________________________________________________
Well, I just cracked the R-410 bracket while trying to bend
the flanges to the proper angle so it would fit on my rudder.
It was turning into quite a fight. With the rudder in the jig,
and the skin clecoed on, it doesn't seem possible to fit the R-410 to check
the angles of the flanges. The only solution seems to
be to make the R-410 smaller. Any ideas?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Trimming spar tips (fwd) |
Yakko, I didn't get your address for the Portland RVators newsletter....
dw
>Forwarded message:
>>
*** deleted ***
>> Subject: Trimming spar tips
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Any advice on when in the sequence of things (before or after riveting
>> skins on, etc.) the 1" extensions left on the wing spars for jigging
>> should be trimmed off, and what is a good technique to do the trimming
>> (snips won't work here and I don't feel like filing off an inch
of material)?
>> I seem to have gone brain dead on this one...
>>
>> Tom Goeddel
>> RV-6A
>> t.goeddel(at)att.com
>>
>
>Howdy Tom,
>
>One HANDY tool is a $40.00 dremal grinder. Using cutoff wheels which you can
>buy, I use the (made of) FIBERGLASS cutting wheels. About $7.50
for 5 wheels.
>This little gem is excellent for hard to cut places, ie the holes in the
>rear spars for the aileron push/pull tube, etc.
>
>The actual method is make several passes with the wheel over the area to
>be cut. It's a very thin wheel and if you try to cut completely through
>the alum in one pass you Will, destroy the wheel. So, several passes
>each a little deeper will be needed to cut the alum
>
>It's a damn good tool though, wear eye protection anytime you work with
>whirring tools, and stuff that can splinter..
>
>Doug Bloomberg
>RV-6A
**** Added comment ****
If you go to a Model Aircraft Hobby store, they have a non-Dremel
brand cut-off wheel available that is about 2 inch diam. and is almost
indestructable, I have used mine a lot on steel parts. It will wear out,
but doesn't break. The brand is "House-of-Balsa", but I think they got
bought out and are now sold under a different name. The model store will
now what you want.
I found the Dremel brand too easy to break, and the 2 inch diam. is
a bit easier too handle than the Dremel 1 inch diam. wheels since it is
larger than the basic diameter of the Dremel tool.
Let me know if you have any trouble finding one, and I will find a
mail order source.
happy cutting ..... Gil Alexander RV6A #20701
---
Gil Alexander - Information Super Highway Address
| Internet : gil(at)rassp.hac.com
Hughes Aircraft Company | UUCP : ..!usc!hac2arpa!rassp!gil
Bldg R01 M/S B505 | Voice : (310) 334-7840
PO Box 92426 | RASSP Hot Line: (310) 334-5404
Los Angeles, CA 90009 | RASSP Fax : (310) 334-1672
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle **Matronics** 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: Resubscription not required. |
>--------------
> On Tue, 24 May 1994, Matt G. Dralle **Matronics** 1+ 510-447-9886 wrote:
>
> > > Hi again Matt.
> > >
> > > < ...some personal verbage deleted... >
>
> Since you are the resident expert on electric trim, I was wondering what
> your opinion was on rudder trim. I am already planning on electric
> elevator and aileron trim (with coolie hat and govenor, natch.) I read an
> article in sport aviation about a RV-4 that had 3 axis electric trim and
> the author said that the RVs, having such a wide range of possible cruise
> speeds, really needs a cockpit adjustable rudder trim. Made sense to me,
> though I am uneasy about adding more weight with a large moment behind the CG.
I had thought about rudder trim and havn't totally ruled it out. I am leaning
towards not, however. Since the only time that rudder trim would be useful
would be on takeoff, and climbout doesn't last that long the the RVs, it
doesn't really seem like it's worth the weight. Aileron trim certainly makes
sense because of fuel managment, and elevator trim is obvious.
>
> BTW, does the Governor negate the requirement for the "relay deck"?
> Relay deck. Ugh. Conjures up images of weight, complexity and unreliability.
>
A SPST switch, a Matronics Governor, and a MAC Trim servo is all you need.
The Governor incorperates both regulation *and* switch multiplexing into one
very small, light weight unit.
>
> Regards,
> Curt Reimer
> RV-6(A?) #23490
> creimer(at)mbnet.mb.ca
>
>
>--------------
Matt Dralle
RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Rivet Gun - Van's Ph number |
> If any of you have Van's number I could use it. I'm going to order my
> Fuselage Kit.After reflecting and thinking about what was said last
> week, I think I will get the RV-6A (It's not as pretty as a RV-6)
> So... The RV-6A isn't as pretty as a RV-6, but either one is one heck of
> alot prettier than any SPAM CAN.
>
>
> Doug Bloomberg
> RV-6 A
Congratulations. It's not easy going against the tide of purist "tailwheel
is coolest" peer pressure. I too think the tailwheel is prettier, and
I too will probably end up with a -6A.
Van's number is 503-647-5117. BTW, did you know fuselage kits are about
2.5 months out now? So if you're about ready, you'd better get your order in!
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle **Matronics** 1+ 510-447-9886) |
Does anyone know Ray Belbin or his phone number? His email address is
bouncing and I'd like to get in touch with him.
Thanks,
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com> |
| Subject: | Landing Gear options |
Randall Sez:
> Congratulations. It's not easy going against the tide of purist "
> tailwheel is coolest" peer pressure. I too think the tailwheel is
> prettier, and I too will probably end up with a -6A.
Perhaps the coolest thing would be to get an extra cowl and the extra parts
needed to make it freely convertable between both configuarions.
Hmmm, I just thought of something. If you did that, it might make it easier
to put floats on. (and skis! Has anyone done skis?)
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com |
| Subject: | Nosewheel or tailwheel |
Although I am building a 3, if I were building a 2-place it would
definitely be the 6-A.
Now if I could just finish my bulkhead and spar assembly....
Cheryl Sanchez
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle **Matronics** 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: Nosewheel or tailwheel |
>--------------
>
> Although I am building a 3, if I were building a 2-place it would
> definitely be the 6-A.
>
> Now if I could just finish my bulkhead and spar assembly....
>
> Cheryl Sanchez
>--------------
Well, if you're gonna build an RV-6a, you might as well just buy a Grumman
Yankee. 'about as cool... :-)
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Nosewheel or tailwheel |
I am really surprized at the number of -6A (let alone -6) advocates
there are out there. For me the -4 was the only choice -- mabie I
am way out of touch.
I was not influenced in my choice. I visited 5 RVs before sending for
the plans and first kit. I saw 2X -3, a -4, a -6 and a -6A. The -6A
was nice, especially with its sliding canopy, but it just wasn't for
me.
I may be biased but it seems to me that the owner of the -4 is the
happiest pilot :-)...
BTW the -4 pilot showed me his 3rd -4 and his 4th (with retractable
gear) should fly this summer.
--
Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support,
Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | greg(at)snapper.arc.nasa.gov (greg pisanich) |
This is probably a stupid question at this point, but has the development of a
4A ever been considered? Or would that just kill the whole concept?
GP.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Pisanich Email: greg(at)eos.arc.nasa.gov Tel: 415 604-1332 FAX: -0801
Flight Human Factors Division, NASA Ames Res. Ctr., MS269-6, MF, CA 94035
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle **Matronics** 1+ 510-447-9886) |
>--------------
> This is probably a stupid question at this point, but has the development of
a
> 4A ever been considered? Or would that just kill the whole concept?
>
> GP.
Have you ever seen an "Tri-champ"? 'nuff said... ;-)
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear options |
Richard Chandler sez:
> Perhaps the coolest thing would be to get an extra cowl and the extra parts
> needed to make it freely convertable between both configuarions.
Yeah! And hang two sets of retractable gear on it, then decide which one
you want when you're ready to land! ;-)
> Hmmm, I just thought of something. If you did that, it might make it easier
> to put floats on
You've been reading my mind. In fact I asked Eustace Bowhay just yesterday
about the possibility of getting a combination -6/6A engine mount made for
that reason. He told me that that was one option they'd considered - to weld
-6 type gear leg tubes to the -6A engine mount, which would mean the float
installation would be the same for both. But he said they'd discarded that
in favor of a design customzed for the RV-6A because in the long run it would
be simpler for most builders, though more work for him. The plan is for a
single forward attatch fitting that would go in the nose gear tube, and fork
out to two struts in front, and use the rear wing spar attach points (as with
the -6) in the rear. That's the way they do it on C-182s, 210s, etc.
> (and skis! Has anyone done skis?)
See the Van's Aircraft 1994 calendar, December photo.
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
| Subject: | Re: Nosewheel or tailwheel (fwd) |
> From dralle(at)matronics.com Wed May 25 20:04:41 1994
> Message-Id: <9405252320.AA05994(at)matronics.com>
> From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt G. Dralle **Matronics** 1+ 510-447-9886)
> Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 16:20:05 -0700
> In-Reply-To: sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com
> "Nosewheel or tailwheel" (May 25, 5:30pm)
> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
> To: sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com, rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Nosewheel or tailwheel
>
> >--------------
> >
> > Although I am building a 3, if I were building a 2-place it would
> > definitely be the 6-A.
> >
> > Now if I could just finish my bulkhead and spar assembly....
> >
> > Cheryl Sanchez
> >--------------
>
> Well, if you're gonna build an RV-6a, you might as well just buy a Grumman
> Yankee. 'about as cool... :-)
>
> Matt
>
>
>
Matt,
I learned flying in a AA1A, and TR-1. I've flown a RV-6A. My friend
the AA1A isn't a RV, period...
But when you fly a RV-4 your needs are different than those that fly
a RV-6 or RV-6A.
OR one could say a RV-4 is nothing more than an enclosed "Spacewalker"
All relative... Don't you agree. :^)
Doug B
Denver
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear options |
Yakko, come to our Ptlnd RVators Flyin and I'll sell you an official Van's
calender (cheap). Open to December for your answer!
dw
>Hmmm, I just thought of something. If you did that, it might make it easier
>to put floats on. (and skis! Has anyone done skis?)
--
>Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
> --- Don't answer that!
>"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
>scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
> -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Resubscription not required. |
Curt, I installed 3-axis electric trim in my RV-6. I agree with Matt that
aileron trim is nice. I haven't flown quite yet so I don't know how
'useful' my rudder trim will be. However, I don't think I would do it
again. It took 6 weeks and $150 worth of 'stuff' to do. I would consider
some kind of spring pre-load first, similar to Van's new aileron trim.
Van had actually made the same recommendation to me when I first
brought-up rudder trim some 3 years ago. Did I listen? Of course not (I
should have).
dw
>--------------
> On Tue, 24 May 1994, Matt G. Dralle **Matronics** 1+ 510-447-9886 wrote:
>
> > > Hi again Matt.
> > >
> > > < ...some personal verbage deleted... >
>
> Since you are the resident expert on electric trim, I was wondering what
> your opinion was on rudder trim. I am already planning on electric
> elevator and aileron trim (with coolie hat and govenor, natch.) I read an
> article in sport aviation about a RV-4 that had 3 axis electric trim and
> the author said that the RVs, having such a wide range of possible cruise
> speeds, really needs a cockpit adjustable rudder trim. Made sense to me,
> though I am uneasy about adding more weight with a large moment
behind the CG.
I had thought about rudder trim and havn't totally ruled it out.
I am leaning
towards not, however. Since the only time that rudder trim would be useful
would be on takeoff, and climbout doesn't last that long the the RVs, it
doesn't really seem like it's worth the weight. Aileron trim certainly makes
sense because of fuel managment, and elevator trim is obvious.
>
> BTW, does the Governor negate the requirement for the "relay deck"?
> Relay deck. Ugh. Conjures up images of weight, complexity and unreliability.
>
A SPST switch, a Matronics Governor, and a MAC Trim servo is all you need.
The Governor incorperates both regulation *and* switch multiplexing into one
very small, light weight unit.
>
> Regards,
> Curt Reimer
> RV-6(A?) #23490
> creimer(at)mbnet.mb.ca
>
>
>--------------
Matt Dralle
RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Nosewheel or tailwheel |
OK Doug, I'll lead all you -6A folk in a bombing run on Matt's place.
We'll get that blasphemer!
Actually, Randall was at a flyin a couple weeks ago where an RV-3 beat-out
all comers in the flour-bombing contest! 7 paces from center. Evidently
everyone else used the old 'B17' approach. The RV-3 used a WW2 style dive
bomb attack to beat 'em! He used a string to somehow release the 'bomb'
on pull-out.
So, just one more flight mode where yes, once again, RVs RULE!
Excellent!
dw
(you can tell it's getting late (past 7pm) and I'm STILL at work. Not to worry,
I took tomorrow off to work on the project!)
>--------------
>
> Although I am building a 3, if I were building a 2-place it would
> definitely be the 6-A.
>
> Now if I could just finish my bulkhead and spar assembly....
>
> Cheryl Sanchez
>--------------
Well, if you're gonna build an RV-6a, you might as well just buy a Grumman
Yankee. 'about as cool... :-)
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: Resubscription not required. |
rv-list(at)matronics.com
On Wed, 25 May 1994, Don Wentz wrote:
> Curt, I installed 3-axis electric trim in my RV-6. I agree with Matt that
> aileron trim is nice. I haven't flown quite yet so I don't know how
> 'useful' my rudder trim will be. However, I don't think I would do it
> again. It took 6 weeks and $150 worth of 'stuff' to do. I would consider
> some kind of spring pre-load first, similar to Van's new aileron trim.
> Van had actually made the same recommendation to me when I first
> brought-up rudder trim some 3 years ago. Did I listen? Of course not (I
> should have).
I have thought about a spring-load system, and I might go that route. I
have only seen pictures of the spring-load aileron trim but it seems to me
that one of the reasons it works is that the required aileron trim forces
are relatively light, requiring only light springs, which don't interfere
with normal control movement. Rudder, on the other hand, would require a
fair bit of oomph to operate, at least on takeoff and climb. I am not sure
if springs heavy enough to provide the required trim action would
interfere with normal rudder movement. I guess one option would be to
use light springs for cruise trim and just mash the pedal down manually
for takeoff and climb. It sounds interesting anyway, and I plan to
experiment with the concept.
It would be a great addition to the pre-takeoff checklist !
"....fuel on and sufficient..."
"....harness and hatches secure..."
"....mixture full rich..."
"....rudder trim full right..." (a la spitfire, mustang, etc !)
Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
> > This is probably a stupid question at this point, but has the development of
a
> > 4A ever been considered? Or would that just kill the whole concept?
> >
> > GP.
>
> Have you ever seen an "Tri-champ"? 'nuff said... ;-)
>
> Matt Dralle
>
There was an article about a one-off -4 with a nosewheel in "Sport Aviation"
a few months ago. It first flew as a tailwheel but the owner decided it
was too squirrely.
Earl Brabandt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Richardson <richards(at)sofkin.ca> |
----------
From: dralle
Subject: Re: a RV-4A?
Date: Wednesday, May 25, 1994 5:06PM
>--------------
> This is probably a stupid question at this point, but has the development
of a
> 4A ever been considered? Or would that just kill the whole concept?
>
> GP.
Have you ever seen an "Tri-champ"? 'nuff said... ;-)
Matt Dralle
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Matt is right. It seems to me that Kitplanes or Sport Aviation had an
article about a
guy who built a -4 with a nose gear a year or two ago. It wasn't long after
the article
appeared that he sold it. I expect it was out of shame ; - )
Mark
************************************************************************
* Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd *
* Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. *
* VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont *
* FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca *
************************************************************************
* RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 *
* EAA# - 367635 DoD# - ????? *
************************************************************************
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Nosewheel or tailwheel |
Do you suppose I joined this group for help or humiliation?
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave.Bonorden(at)amd.com (Dave Bonorden) |
This is probably a stupid question at this point, but has the development of a
4A ever been considered? Or would that just kill the whole concept?
GP.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Pisanich Email: greg(at)eos.arc.nasa.gov Tel: 415 604-1332 FAX: -0801
Flight Human Factors Division, NASA Ames Res. Ctr., MS269-6, MF, CA 94035
----- End Included Message -----
And I thought communism was on the decline! :)
I saw a picture of a -4 that had been modified with a nose gear. I wish I hadn't
seen it.
Dave Bonorden
A guy who wants to sit on the centerline of his airplane with the stick in the
correct (right) hand and the throttle in his left hand.........
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lackerma(at)rad.rpslmc.edu (lauren ackerman) |
>
> Congratulations. It's not easy going against the tide of purist "tailwheel
> is coolest" peer pressure. I too think the tailwheel is prettier, and
> I too will probably end up with a -6A.
>
That's probably what I will do. I would rather fly than
look at a ground looped disabled airplane which "looks better."
But then I am just starting my wings and can always change
my mind.
laurens RV-6?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Nosewheel or tailwheel |
Bill, No, you're not out of touch, not any more or less than anyone who
picked one of the other fine RV designs. It's like automatics vs sticks
in cars, everyone has their own reasons for the one they like (of course,
WE know that only girly-men by 'sporty' cars with automatics, right? :-)
Hey, it could be worse. You could be one of those chumps building a
Lancair!
As to Frank's comment about help or humiliation, I am pretty sure that all
of this discussion has been more friendly chiding than anything else.
Besides, this is a TON more action than this list has seen in the last 4
months! I've even see some useful data mixed in here and there...
dw
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I am really surprized at the number of -6A (let alone -6) advocates
there are out there. For me the -4 was the only choice -- mabie I
am way out of touch.
I was not influenced in my choice. I visited 5 RVs before sending for
the plans and first kit. I saw 2X -3, a -4, a -6 and a -6A. The -6A
was nice, especially with its sliding canopy, but it just wasn't for
me.
I may be biased but it seems to me that the owner of the -4 is the
happiest pilot :-)...
BTW the -4 pilot showed me his 3rd -4 and his 4th (with retractable
gear) should fly this summer.
--
Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support,
Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
I talked to someone about that one also. I think the pilot was in over
his head a little in the -4 and thought a nosewheel was the answer.
Turns-out it wasn't, so he is an ex-RVator.
Kill the concept. The -4 is 'pure sport'. Centerline seating and all
that stuff. It should remain so (I'm not a biased -4 pilot, mine is a -6.
I just agree that the -4 is the sportiest of the 2 seaters and has some
features that shouldn't be changed).
dw
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This is probably a stupid question at this point, but has the
development of a
> > 4A ever been considered? Or would that just kill the whole concept?
> >
> > GP.
>
> Have you ever seen an "Tri-champ"? 'nuff said... ;-)
>
> Matt Dralle
>
There was an article about a one-off -4 with a nosewheel in "Sport Aviation"
a few months ago. It first flew as a tailwheel but the owner decided it
was too squirrely.
Earl Brabandt
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [Enclosed file: bnnose] |
My two cents worth on 6 vs 6A discussion.
I am building a "6". I want an adequate X-country machine and the ability
to look my passenger in the eye if I am talking to them. I also want a
place to put an unfolded map. (...for show..."I don't need no stinking
directions!...") I also think it looks better. I've heard all of the "eye
of the beholder" comments, but to my eye, a tail wheel plane is just
sleeker, in the air or on the ground. To me a P-51 or a P-40 look a lot
better on the ramp than an AirCobra. Shallow I know, but I also think
Michelle Pfiefer looks better that Rosanne Arnold. Finally a 6 weighs
less. I tip the scales at 200+. I probably won't weigh much less over the
long run so I want my plane as light as I can make it. For "ME" a
side-by-side taildragger is the only choice I can make.
The Nose wheel might be a bit safer, but I've heard of very few 6's being
ground looped. On the other hand, the heightened awareness of the
limitations of the plane might make for a better pilot in other respects.
If you choose your airplane based on someone else's idea of what is
practical or macho or sleek or comfortable or any other reason that's not
your own, you will probably be disappointed.
If I wanted the safest plane to fly I could buy a C150, if I wanted faster
plane I would build a LanceAir 360 or IV (if money were no object), and if
I wanted a siteseeing plane I would consider a KitFox. All of them are
VALID choices for different people.
My choice, however, is the sleek, comfortable, fast, economical, and
(moderately) challanging RV6. I don't expect to be disappointed with my
choice when I am finished building!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | andy(at)pteron.demon.co.uk |
29 May 94 17:12 GMT-60:00
Hi all,
I joined the list when it was mentioned in rec.aviation.homebuilt but
have been quietly lurking since :-)
I'm afraid I'm only an RV-4 wannabe, but hopefully one day soon I'll
order the empennage kit! I know a couple of people who are into RVs, one
has completed a 4 in San Jose, and another is working on his empennage
kit 35 miles up the road from me. I have been and had the introduction to
riveting from the one close by - its not *so* bad, I'm just waiting for my
company to send me to California so I can take up the offer of a ride in
the other :-))))) In fact Jim has said he can get me a ride in a 6 as
well so that I can compare them and see which I want to build! I have a
GIF of Jim's RV-4 as my backdrop on my Sparc at work.
I live in the UK - are there any other UK members of the list? I design
mixed signal ASICs for a living, hence my friend in Silicon valley. I've
been toying with the idea of designing a reasonably priced intercom, if
you have any thoughts on features you'd like to see in an intercom then
please drop me a line. I may even sweep it onto an ASIC one day and have
the smallest and lightest intercom around!
The main reason I haven't started on my project yet (apart from having no
money!) is that I'm unsure whether my little one car garage is big enough
to build in. Has anyone else built a 4 or 6 in a garage thats 12.5ft by
9ft with an alcove 3ft deep by about 5ft where the stairs go through it?
Do you think its possible or shall I move house?
Keep sending those project reports, its great to see the development of
the aeroplanes from first rivets to flying.
All the best,
Andy
--
!/A <-- oo <>< andy(at)pteron.demon.co.uk
_____________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Jigging Vertical Stabilizer (RV-6) |
I probably should have asked this question BEFORE I went and did it "my"
way, but it seems that the instructions regarding jigging the vertical
stab. are rather confusing. With the horizontal stab, the rear spar is
bolted to the jig and is pefectly level. THis means that a level can be
used for reference when setting the angle of the H.S. ribs. When one does
the V.S. however, the hinge line is NOT parallel to the V.S. rear spar.
So, if one bolts the V.S. rear spar to the jig (which is level) using the
same brackets as were used for the H.S., the V.S. rear spar will NOT be
level. This means that a level can NOT be used for setting the angle of
the V.S. ribs. Rather, a square must be used so set the rib angles
relative to the rear spar. Yet, the manual shows a spirit level being used
to set the rib angles, while the plans show the rib angles relative to the
rear spar. This seems contradictory, or am I missing something ? Anyway, I
used a square and set my ribs relative to the rear spar.
Regarding fitting the V.S. and H.S. skins, does one pull the skins down
over the skeleton until there is exactly the required overlap past the
rear spar (1/2")? Or does one pull the skin down until it is as tight as
possible against the ribs, with at least the required overlap, and then
trim any excess later? (I did the latter).
Regards,
Curt Reimer
RV-6 #23490
creimer(at)mbnet.mb.ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Jigging Vertical Stabiliz... |
I set my center V.S. rib at 90 degrees to the spar and that seems
to work fine. The problem I had was with the bottom rib. It is
supposed to be offset 2 1/4" at the tip as measured from the end
of the spar. But what you have to watch out for is the distance
between the rear spar and forward spar which needs to be 16 1/2".
This distance is a function of the offset angle of the rib. I
failed to check this distance while jigging the V.S. and ended up
with almost 17". Now when I go to attach it to the fuselage it
may not fit. I don't think the rib offset of 2 1/4 " is as critical
as the distance between the spars since this distance has to
match with the fuselage for mounting. So, be careful.
As for the skins, I pulled mine down as tight as I could get it.
This is what the folks at Van's told me to do when I asked them
the same question. I ended up short on the overhang at the roots
by 1/8" and was told this spacing is not that critical.
happy building..
Carl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
| Subject: | Possible WWW server for RV stuff. |
Hi Guys,
My boss is trying to encourage the use of our WWW server among the
communications section I work for. As part of this process we have
been asked if we want set-up some recreation topics. I was thinking of
creating an RV server. What I need to know is how many people in the
list have access to WWW servers and run Mosaic????
For those who don't know what I'm talking about, a web server would
allow for the storage of Image files, Jpeg video files, Data files in
the form of ascii text and audio files. The whole lot is tied together
with a nice hypertext front end. I would allow us all to exchange
pictures of our projects along with drawings of thing we are working
on.
Any Interest??????
John Morrissey
RV4 - Now skinning the wing and about to tackle Proseal!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re: Jigging Vertical Stabilizer (RV-6) |
>Regarding fitting the V.S. and H.S. skins, does one pull the skins down
>over the skeleton until there is exactly the required overlap past the
>rear spar (1/2")? Or does one pull the skin down until it is as tight as
>possible against the ribs, with at least the required overlap, and then
>trim any excess later? (I did the latter).
>Curt Reimer
The trailing edges are what show later so you don't want to mess with the
nice clean factory cut. Fit the skin tight onto the ribs and spar and look for
the desired overlap. If you don't get it, slide the skin sideways along the
skeleton until you can get it. Then trim the tip ends after riveting; there is
no need to trim the big ends because they don't show and don't run into
anything. Tape some small scraps of aluminum to the spar beforehand that extend
out by the same amount as the overlap; that makes it go much quicker.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu (Randy S. McCallister) |
| Subject: | riveting rib tips |
Fellow RV builders,
I have been puzzled even though I am putting the finishing touches on my
horiz. stab. skins...Should the rib tips in the tail section have at least
two rivet? My rib spacing formula (1 1/4 in.) sometimes put only one rivet
in the tips.
thanks - Randy
--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
: | : Randy S. McCallister :
: _________________|_________________ ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
: \ | | / : :
: `.#####.' : Phone 703-831-6227 :
: /`#_#'\ : Fax : 703-831-5893 :
:RV-6 12574 O' O `O PA-22-108 :rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu :
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Jigging Vertical Stabiliz... |
When I first looked at the various angles and strange dimensions on the
stabilizers I thought there was no way I could get everything to line up right,
what with all the curved pieces. So, I took a little extra time and built a
fixture for the vertical and for half of the horizontal. It is easy to glue
blocks of wood to a flat piece of plywood using the plan dimensions. Then all
you have to do is clamp ribs and spars to them and start drilling. The best
part is that it only took me a little longer than struggling with the ribs,
spars, squares, and levels in free space. Also, the fourth empenage is now
being built on these fixtures, with considerable time and worry saved on the
last three. Build fixtures and share for more and safer RV's flying!!
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
| Subject: | Re: Jigging Vertical Stabilizer (RV-6) (fwd) |
> From SSD.intel.com!frank(at)matronics.com Tue May 31 11:45:40 1994
> From: SSD.intel.com!frank(at)matronics.com
> Date: Tue, 31 May 94 07:41:09 PDT
> Message-Id: <9404317703.AA770395269(at)co1smt1.ssd.intel.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Jigging Vertical Stabilizer (RV-6)
>
>
>
>
> >Regarding fitting the V.S. and H.S. skins, does one pull the skins down
> >over the skeleton until there is exactly the required overlap past the
> >rear spar (1/2")? Or does one pull the skin down until it is as tight as
> >possible against the ribs, with at least the required overlap, and then
> >trim any excess later? (I did the latter).
>
> >Curt Reimer
>
> The trailing edges are what show later so you don't want to mess with the
> nice clean factory cut. Fit the skin tight onto the ribs and spar and look for
> the desired overlap. If you don't get it, slide the skin sideways along the
> skeleton until you can get it. Then trim the tip ends after riveting; there
is
> no need to trim the big ends because they don't show and don't run into
> anything. Tape some small scraps of aluminum to the spar beforehand that extend
> out by the same amount as the overlap; that makes it go much quicker.
>
> Frank J.
>
>
>
Another consideration is to make the over lap of the skin equal on both
sides. I riveted the left skin, then when setting the right skin I adjusted
the overlap for the top side, letting the bottom end where it may. I
figured that part of building is looking good IF IT DOESN'T AFFECT the
safety of the airframe. By adjusting like this the gap for both sides
is constant between the HS and Elvator, as viewed while the RV is on the ground.
You also know how to rivet the HS skins without using pop rivets???
(Don't rivet the forward inboard ribs to the forward spar until the skins are
riveted to the forward spar, middle and outboard ribs, and rear spars. Then
install and rivet the forward inboard rib to the spar, Then rivet the inboard
skin edge to the inboard ribs.)
Doug B.
TO GARY B. Hows the 6A coming? Did your daughter solo OK?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: [Enclosed file: bnnose] |
>If you choose your airplane based on someone else's idea of what is
>practical or macho or sleek or comfortable or any other reason that's not
>your own, you will probably be disappointed.
Now THAT is good advice.
dw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "'John H. Henderson'" <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
| Subject: | RV-6F in Kitplanes |
Guess what appear on the cover of the July Kitplanes in my mailbox
today? The RV-6 on floats! There is an article included with more
pictures.
John
Day number 315 of the hostage crisis.
Upper 1%? Day number 334 of the hostage crisis (retroactive)
Only 1145 days to go!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Possible WWW server for RV stuff. |
John,
Sounds like a good idea to me. It might also be able to act as a
good archive for hints and ideas if the "Pages" are sorted correctly.
(e.g. SECTION "Building Hints" -- SUBSECTIONS "Wing", "Fuselage",
"Metalworking - General" )
Don't go overboard on graphics though ... most of the useful
advice and hints are in text form, and can stay that way.
Gil Alexander ..... RV6A ... #20701
> Hi Guys,
>
> My boss is trying to encourage the use of our WWW server among the
> communications section I work for. As part of this process we have
> been asked if we want set-up some recreation topics. I was thinking of
> creating an RV server. What I need to know is how many people in the
> list have access to WWW servers and run Mosaic????
>
> For those who don't know what I'm talking about, a web server would
> allow for the storage of Image files, Jpeg video files, Data files in
> the form of ascii text and audio files. The whole lot is tied together
> with a nice hypertext front end. I would allow us all to exchange
> pictures of our projects along with drawings of thing we are working
> on.
>
>
> Any Interest??????
>
>
> John Morrissey
> RV4 - Now skinning the wing and about to tackle Proseal!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com> |
rv-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re[2]: [Enclosed file: bnnose] |
Buying an "already started kit" is another bar idea in my mind. Unless it
is a screaming deal of course.
My first home-builder experience was an "already started kit" (not an RV)
and all I had was heartache. I was never comfortable with the work already
done. Parts were not complete. Perishable materials had to be discarded.
In spite of all the work I did put into it, I was always troubled with the
fact that the finished creation would never be all my doing. I ended up
dumping it for much less than it was worth just to get rid of it. Oh yea,
add hard to get rid of (second generation you know).
Start new and get: latest plans, new materials, manufacturers support and
personal satisfaction.
personal experience,
Mike Wilson
>If you choose your airplane based on someone else's idea of what is
>practical or macho or sleek or comfortable or any other reason that's not
>your own, you will probably be disappointed.
Now THAT is good advice.
dw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Cooper" <cooper(at)seer.jpl.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Possible WWW server for RV stuff. |
John,
I think setting up a World Wide Web (WWW) server for RV info is a great idea! I
have found Mosaic to be an excellent, painless way to get text, images, sound
and movie files on the net. Having a single WWW repository for the myriad RV
info files would be very uselful to the readers of rv-list. Let us know of your
progress.
--
Brian K. Cooper - Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena CA - (818)-354-6298
cooper(at)robotics.jpl.nasa.gov
Signature in Stereo (free view, diverge eyes):
X X
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UMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Richardson <richards(at)sofkin.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Possible WWW server for RV stuff. |
----------
From: gil
Subject: Re: Possible WWW server for RV stuff.
Date: Tuesday, May 31, 1994 10:59AM
>John,
> Sounds like a good idea to me. It might also be able to act as a
>good archive for hints and ideas if the "Pages" are sorted correctly.
>(e.g. SECTION "Building Hints" -- SUBSECTIONS "Wing", "Fuselage",
>"Metalworking - General" )
> Don't go overboard on graphics though ... most of the useful
>advice and hints are in text form, and can stay that way.
> Gil Alexander ..... RV6A ... #20701
What about putting Franks' building instructions on-line?
Mark
************************************************************************
* Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd *
* Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. *
* VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont *
* FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca *
************************************************************************
* RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 *
* EAA# - 367635 DoD# - ????? *
************************************************************************
> Hi Guys,
>
> My boss is trying to encourage the use of our WWW server among the
> communications section I work for. As part of this process we have
> been asked if we want set-up some recreation topics. I was thinking of
> creating an RV server. What I need to know is how many people in the
> list have access to WWW servers and run Mosaic????
>
> For those who don't know what I'm talking about, a web server would
> allow for the storage of Image files, Jpeg video files, Data files in
> the form of ascii text and audio files. The whole lot is tied together
> with a nice hypertext front end. I would allow us all to exchange
> pictures of our projects along with drawings of thing we are working
> on.
>
>
> Any Interest??????
>
>
> John Morrissey
> RV4 - Now skinning the wing and about to tackle Proseal!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
>> > This is probably a stupid question at this point, but has the development
>>of a
>> > 4A ever been considered? Or would that just kill the whole concept?
>> >
>>
>There was an article about a one-off -4 with a nosewheel in "Sport Aviation"
>a few months ago. It first flew as a tailwheel but the owner decided it
>was too squirrely.
>
>Earl Brabandt
His "fix" was the same as Van's RV6 --> RV6A design change. He
attached the main gear legs to a weldment bolted to the front of the main
spar (using the same spar/bulkead bolts), and a re-designed engine mount
that held the nose gear leg.
For him at least, it changed it from a plane he was afraid of, to one
he enjoyed using. Isn't this the end result of homebuilding??
Gil Alexander
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tif396.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | Re: Jigging Vertical Stabilizer (RV-6) (fwd) |
>
> Doug B.
>
>
>
> TO GARY B. Hows the 6A coming? Did your daughter solo OK?
>
>
Well, life has been interesting lately. My wife is in Europe for 3 weeks,
she called to say she broke her foot; ouch! My septic system completely
failed on Memorial Day and I need to connect to the sewer line; found
out its almost solid ledge to the line; $$$. My Jeep is undriveable due
to a front axle problem. My kids are complaining that I'm not feeding them;
they called my parents and they're taking the ferry over from L.I. to bring
up some home-cooked meals. So now that you can see my frame of mind, on to
the good stuff....
Becky (16 years old) soloed about 5 weeks ago and then did her first
`away from the airport area` solo 2 weeks ago. Boy is it stressfull to
see you daughter solo. She wasn't nervous at all; I was a wreck!
As far as the RV6A, I'm down to the 'finishing' touches. I'm about ready
to final rivet the top rear skin now that the antennae are in (I decided to
go with the external antennae). The panel stuff is all mounted but not
yet wired. The engine compartment is mostly done, but still needs alot
of small things comleted (ie. the primer lines). I just did the final touches
on the sliding canopy, and its ready for paint. I tried something a bit
different to seal the bottom edges of the sliding canopy side skins. I
cut them about 1/4" above the fuselage skin and slipped on a piece of the rubber
stripping that is used for the wing-root fairing seal. I'm also going to use
the thin 'tire tube' approach described in the RVator. I think the canopy
will seal very nicely and looks pretty good.
I'm just about to start the fiberglass work on the rest of the plane. This
should take about 6 weeks, or so. Still looking for a late August 'completion'
but maybe I'm too optimistic. Also, I ordered the throttle cable from Van's
but will return it shortly. It has the same rather larger knob that the
manual trim has (I have the electric); its way too big for a throttle
application (in my configuration). In general, I haven't been real happy
with many of the parts that Van's sells in the Options catalog. I tend to
order/reorder most of my parts from Aircraft Spruce now days.
Gary Bataller
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Possible WWW server for RV stuff. |
>What about putting Franks' building instructions on-line?
>
>Mark
Fine with me. That way people could pick up what they need and be sure it
is the latest.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CH2MHILL!CVA!SKimura(at)ch2m1.attmail.com |
| Subject: | Drag/No-drag/leg pats/ground loops |
I'm an RV-wanna-be, and I've had a long-time dream of
an RV-4. After enjoying all the discussion on the pros
and cons of the different options, looks like the -6A is
more my speed (I'm still trying to do good landings
in a C172!).
Part of my dream, though, is aerobatics. Nobody mentioned
any performance difference between the -4 and the -6/-6A
in this respect. Is there much difference there?
Steve Kimura
CH2M Hill
Corvallis OR
kimuras(at)cva.msmail.ch2m.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Fuel Sender - gauge compatibility |
To all RV builders,
As promised .... a follow-up to the tank sender/gauge tests
mentioned in my 5-13 posting.
I took my sender from Van's, and measured it's resistance
vs. angle after adjusting the end stops to 33 and 240 ohms.
I found it to be non-linear, with a greater resistance change vs.
angle at high resistance (Full). This gives it a greater sensitivity near
Empty which is good. Approximate readings are as follows (angle was a bit
hard to measure accurately .. is probably +/- 1.5 degrees).
Ohms Angle
33 0
63 8
87 18
106 28
132 38
161 48
208 58
243 67
I then took a WESTACH Dual Fuel Gauge #2DA4 ($62 from Aircraft
Spruce) and wired it to two variable resistors, and simulated the fuel
sender from the above resistance curve. I also translated the readings to
sender float angle.
Ohms Reading Angle (degrees)
241 EMPTY 0
164 1/4 19
106 1/2 39
67 3/4 57
33 FULL 67
This was done at 12.3 VDC supply (the battery from my Terra
handheld), and to check supply sensitivity, I added 3 volts to make 15.3
VDC, and could see NO change in the meter reading anywhere in the range.
This is better than most direct reading guages (the Westach has internal
electronic circuitry, unlike Vans single tank guages).
Conclusions,
The Westach #2DA4 dual gauge will work with Van's senders, in
spite of the catalog warnings to only use the same brand sender.
The gauge looks like an Aircraft 2 1/4 inch instrument instead of
an automobile type, and should save space on the panel by showing both tank
fuel levels in one instrument.
The gauge reads the same over a wide range of supply voltages.
The gauge and Van's sender combination has more sensitivity in the
lower half of sender travel ... which is good for our application.
Full and Empty are indicated correctly if the sender is adjusted to
32-34 ohms and 235-245 ohms at the float arm limits.
Cost is not exorbitant.
Internal lighting is available cheaply.
Sometimes you get lucky!! My original intention was to build some
electrinics to make this guage and Van's senders compatible.. none is
needed!
This is the way I am going to do my fuel indicator, with the gauge
mounted just above the fuel selector on a sub-panel (in place of the large
manual trim knob - I am going electric for elevator trim). I am also
thinking of low fuel warning lights next to the gauge driven by float
switches in the fuel tank access panel.
happy gauging ..... Gil Alexander #20701 RV6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Drag/No-drag/leg pats/ground loops |
>
> Part of my dream, though, is aerobatics. Nobody mentioned
> any performance difference between the -4 and the -6/-6A
> in this respect. Is there much difference there?
The -4 is the better aerobatic platform, with a better roll rate and
centerline seating, among other things. And it'll go faster than a -6 with
the same engine since it's lighter, though not by that much. But even the 6
is much better than your average spam can for aerobatics. Performance-wise,
the nosewheel slows down the -6A by about 2mph compared to the conventional
gear -6. Not much of a hit there especially when you consider the kind of
gains you can make back by reducing drag in other areas (e.g. fiberglass
wing root fairings, internalized antennas, etc.).
Van's literature has the specific numbers on roll rate, performance, etc.
Randall Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Drag/No-drag/leg pats/ground loops |
> > Part of my dream, though, is aerobatics. Nobody mentioned
> > any performance difference between the -4 and the -6/-6A
> > in this respect. Is there much difference there?
>
> The -4 is the better aerobatic platform, with a better roll rate and
> centerline seating, among other things. And it'll go faster than a -6
> with the same engine since it's lighter, though not by that much. But
> even the 6 is much better than your average spam can for aerobatics.
> Performance-wise, the nosewheel slows down the -6A by about 2mph
> compared to the conventional gear -6. Not much of a hit there
> especially when you consider the kind of gains you can make back by
> reducing drag in other areas (e.g. fiberglass wing root fairings,
> internalized antennas, etc.).
>
> Van's literature has the specific numbers on roll rate, performance,
> etc.
I understand that one thing you need in an aerobatic airplane is a good
amount of drag, or else you will build up too much speed too quickly in
diving maneuvers.
I wonder if there's a aerobatics mailing list.....
Speed Brakes on an RV anyone? :-)
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Fuel Sender - gauge compatibility |
I am building an RV4. I have both wing frames primed and assembled in the
jigs. Starting to think about skin. Presently building the fuel tanks. I
plan to fly frequent aerobatics and should expect to get crazy from time to
time.
Questions:
1)
The plans call for changes to #2 rib. Install a flap in the bottom flow
hole to prevent flow back. I have heard this flap is prone to failure
(sticking) particularly if proseal gets on it.
What is the impact of leaving the flow flap off? Any creative ideas?
I thought about adding a counter weight to ensure open/close function. Is
there a better way?
2)
Plans also call for leaving out the flow hole at the mid point of #2 rib.
This will make fueling slow. Any ideas?
3)
Also interested in equipment options like non-conventional senders and flop
tubes. What's out there?
RV4 emp-done, wings in the jigs, building tanks
Mike Wilson
St Helens, OR
To all RV builders,
As promised .... a follow-up to the tank sender/gauge tests
mentioned in my 5-13 posting.
I took my sender from Van's, and measured it's resistance
vs. angle after adjusting the end stops to 33 and 240 ohms.
I found it to be non-linear, with a greater resistance change vs.
angle at high resistance (Full). This gives it a greater sensitivity near
Empty which is good. Approximate readings are as follows (angle was a bit
hard to measure accurately .. is probably +/- 1.5 degrees).
Ohms Angle
33 0
63 8
87 18
106 28
132 38
161 48
208 58
243 67
I then took a WESTACH Dual Fuel Gauge #2DA4 ($62 from Aircraft
Spruce) and wired it to two variable resistors, and simulated the fuel
sender from the above resistance curve. I also translated the readings to
sender float angle.
Ohms Reading Angle (degrees)
241 EMPTY 0
164 1/4 19
106 1/2 39
67 3/4 57
33 FULL 67
This was done at 12.3 VDC supply (the battery from my Terra
handheld), and to check supply sensitivity, I added 3 volts to make 15.3
VDC, and could see NO change in the meter reading anywhere in the range.
This is better than most direct reading guages (the Westach has internal
electronic circuitry, unlike Vans single tank guages).
Conclusions,
The Westach #2DA4 dual gauge will work with Van's senders, in
spite of the catalog warnings to only use the same brand sender.
The gauge looks like an Aircraft 2 1/4 inch instrument instead of
an automobile type, and should save space on the panel by showing both tank
fuel levels in one instrument.
The gauge reads the same over a wide range of supply voltages.
The gauge and Van's sender combination has more sensitivity in the
lower half of sender travel ... which is good for our application.
Full and Empty are indicated correctly if the sender is adjusted to
32-34 ohms and 235-245 ohms at the float arm limits.
Cost is not exorbitant.
Internal lighting is available cheaply.
Sometimes you get lucky!! My original intention was to build some
electrinics to make this guage and Van's senders compatible.. none is
needed!
This is the way I am going to do my fuel indicator, with the gauge
mounted just above the fuel selector on a sub-panel (in place of the large
manual trim knob - I am going electric for elevator trim). I am also
thinking of low fuel warning lights next to the gauge driven by float
switches in the fuel tank access panel.
happy gauging ..... Gil Alexander #20701 RV6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | twg(at)blink.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278)) |
| Subject: | A few questions... |
Hi all,
A couple of questions...
1. Any thoughts on whether to use ProSeal or a cork gasket for sealing the
fuel tank access plate? The cork would seem easier to deal with if you
ever needed to get back in the tank, but maybe the ProSeal is less likely
to leak or lasts longer (plus ProSeal is soooooo much fun to use!).
I don't know much about either cork or ProSeal in terms of leak resistance,
longevity, removability, etc.
2. Any tricks to riveting flush rivets in an area where a squeezer won't fit
or reach, and a normal flush rivet set won't fit either?
...and an item for discussion:
CG location as a function of engine, prop, and plane (-4, -6, -6A).
I'm particularly interested in the -6A but I figure others may be
interested in this issue as it pertains to other models.
I tend to lean towards the simplicity and "low" cost of an 0-320 with a wood
prop, but I also remember reading something about a -6 that had very little
margin for baggage due to a rearward CG, and the solution was a con$tant $peed
prop. So...where do CGs typically end up for various combinations? Is the -6A
any different than the -6 w/ regards to typical CGs, etc.
I really envy all of you with lots of local builders around. There are a
handfull here, but most of the time it's the blind leading the blind.
Thanks in advance for the help - maybe there is still hope that I'll get
this hummer done in time to celebrate the 100th aniversary of powered flight...
Tom Goeddel
RV-6A (Oshkosh 2003)
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Sender - gauge compatibility |
Wow, nice 'report' Gil, thanks from all of us RV builders. You wouldn't
mind if I snagged this data and put it in our newsletter would you? Get
all that effort in front of a BUNCH more builders.
I also used Van's senders with the Westach 2DA4 Dual Fuel Indicator. It
looks very nice in the panel. The added cost didn't bother me as I made
a 'conscious' decision to use all aircraft style instruments, and am used
to paying a little more for that luxury (did I say 'a little'? OUCH).
We now have painted the flaps, elevators and horz stab of my RV-6.
Expect to paint the wings saturday and the fuse a week later. Shooting
for inspection the week after that.
I must be getting close to being done, I keep running out of rivets! I
have had to mooch a few -3.5 & -4 AN426AD3s off of Mike and Randall, so I
can finish installing all of those damn nutplates that are required at
this final stage of the program. Beginning to feel like completion is
real close....
dw RV-6 #20369 N790DW
To all RV builders,
As promised .... a follow-up to the tank sender/gauge tests
mentioned in my 5-13 posting.
I took my sender from Van's, and measured it's resistance
vs. angle after adjusting the end stops to 33 and 240 ohms.
I found it to be non-linear, with a greater resistance change vs.
angle at high resistance (Full). This gives it a greater sensitivity near
Empty which is good. Approximate readings are as follows (angle was a bit
hard to measure accurately .. is probably +/- 1.5 degrees).
Ohms Angle
33 0
63 8
87 18
106 28
132 38
161 48
208 58
243 67
I then took a WESTACH Dual Fuel Gauge #2DA4 ($62 from Aircraft
Spruce) and wired it to two variable resistors, and simulated the fuel
sender from the above resistance curve. I also translated the readings to
sender float angle.
Ohms Reading Angle (degrees)
241 EMPTY 0
164 1/4 19
106 1/2 39
67 3/4 57
33 FULL 67
This was done at 12.3 VDC supply (the battery from my Terra
handheld), and to check supply sensitivity, I added 3 volts to make 15.3
VDC, and could see NO change in the meter reading anywhere in the range.
This is better than most direct reading guages (the Westach has internal
electronic circuitry, unlike Vans single tank guages).
Conclusions,
The Westach #2DA4 dual gauge will work with Van's senders, in
spite of the catalog warnings to only use the same brand sender.
The gauge looks like an Aircraft 2 1/4 inch instrument instead of
an automobile type, and should save space on the panel by showing both tank
fuel levels in one instrument.
The gauge reads the same over a wide range of supply voltages.
The gauge and Van's sender combination has more sensitivity in the
lower half of sender travel ... which is good for our application.
Full and Empty are indicated correctly if the sender is adjusted to
32-34 ohms and 235-245 ohms at the float arm limits.
Cost is not exorbitant.
Internal lighting is available cheaply.
Sometimes you get lucky!! My original intention was to build some
electrinics to make this guage and Van's senders compatible.. none is
needed!
This is the way I am going to do my fuel indicator, with the gauge
mounted just above the fuel selector on a sub-panel (in place of the large
manual trim knob - I am going electric for elevator trim). I am also
thinking of low fuel warning lights next to the gauge driven by float
switches in the fuel tank access panel.
happy gauging ..... Gil Alexander #20701 RV6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Sender - gauge compatibility |
Gil Alexander wrote:
> To all RV builders,
>
> As promised .... a follow-up to the tank sender/gauge tests
> mentioned in my 5-13 posting.
[follow-up deleted]
Great write-up Gil! I've been wondering whether to exchange my "standard"
fuel gauges for a dual Westach - this kind of info is what a person needs
to help decide.
One thing you said caught my eye -- you said that "Internal lighting is
available cheaply. I guess that means it's not standard with the Westach?
How does the option work then, and just what does it cost? I know we're not
talking much $$ here, just wondering, since the ones from Vans come with
lights already built in.
One bit of info I'll add is that when I flew recently with a friend in his
RV-6 I noticed he had a Westach dual fuel gauge, and when I asked him about
it he told me it was the 3rd one he got - the first two were bad right out of
the box. He seemed to think Westach stuff in general wasn't too high quality.
Of course that's just one opinion, so take it for what it's worth.
Randall Henderson
RV-6 building the fuel tanks -- sheesh!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: A few questions... |
________________________________________________________________________________
>1. Any thoughts on whether to use ProSeal or a cork gasket for sealing the
>fuel tank access plate? The cork would seem easier to deal with if you
>ever needed to get back in the tank, but maybe the ProSeal is less likely
>to leak or lasts longer (plus ProSeal is soooooo much fun to use!).
>I don't know much about either cork or ProSeal in terms of leak resistance,
>longevity, removability, etc.
Tom,
I wondered about the same thing, and asked Vans since the
instruction book sort of skips how to do this.
What was recommended was a cork gasket (cut it yourself ... 1/16
inch material from any auto parts store) with Proseal on each side. This
is guaranteed to not leak (well almost!), and if you ever have to get into
the tank in the future, you can cut through the cork with a knife blade,
and then scrape the Proseal off (with difficulty, but it will come off).
Do not use any of the RTV or Permatex type materials, since none of
them are rated for prolonged immersion in gasoline type fluids.
However, a local RV6A with wings built by Phlogiston had the access
plates with a cork gasket only, and they have been OK for a year of flying,
this is how the auto folks usually do it. The tanks leaked badly, but not
through the access plate. His was a rear baffle leak, so make sure there
is enough Proseal on the flanges of the tank baffle.
hope this helps .... Gil Alexander RV6A #20701
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
| Subject: | Re: A few questions... |
>1. Any thoughts on whether to use ProSeal or a cork gasket for sealing the
>fuel tank access plate? The cork would seem easier to deal with if you
>ever needed to get back in the tank, but maybe the ProSeal is less likely
>to leak or lasts longer (plus ProSeal is soooooo much fun to use!).
>I don't know much about either cork or ProSeal in terms of leak resistance,
>longevity, removability, etc.
I asked an old mechanic and RV nut about this; he said you can use a cork
gasket alone as long as the access plate and the material it attaches to are
both .040 or thicker material (read that stiff). The RV meets that criteria as
well as having lots of screws located close together. He also says that there
are other kinds of ProSeal that are designed for this so you can get the plates
back off again later. The kind we use is for permanent seals.
>2. Any tricks to riveting flush rivets in an area where a squeezer won't fit
>or reach, and a normal flush rivet set won't fit either?
One of the local builders came up with the duck-billed squeezer that works quite
well and is worth the effort to make. Get two pieces of steel about 3/8" thick
(1/4" will work about as well), about 1" wide and 3" long. You tape them
securely inside the squeezer jaws (with duck tape, naturally) so it looks like
a
duck's head and you can then reach in and squeeze rivets in elevator trailing
edges and such. The ends of the beaks can be ground down to near a chisel point
for reaching into really tight areas.
February 19, 1994 - June 03, 1994
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