RV-Archive.digest.vol-qb
November 13, 2004 - November 16, 2004
First off, my understanding is that there is significant up force on a
closed canopy. Second, if the canopy is opened but properly attached to
the plane, it will find an equilibrium point.
If I had a tip up, it would be relatively easy. My canopy hinge would be
segmented and arranged with a pin travel of no more than a few inches to
let go of the canopy. One stroke of the release lever or cable, and air
loads would lift the canopy upward, drag would haul it aft, as well as
breaking the weak spot I'd build into any strut or retention system.
Multiple certified aerobatic aircraft use this technique as I recall.
I am building an -8 with a slider, tho. At first I liked the pull pin in
the canopy roller idea. But if you guys are reporting that the uploads on
the ajar canopy are so great that you can't move the canopy on it's
rollers, then what chance do we have of pulling cylindrical (non-rollered)
pins under the same load? It sounds like some sort of large and obnoxious
mechanically advantaged over center mechanism would be required to make
this idea work reliably. Obviously, not ideal.
It has also occurred to me that one could make canopy roller sized cut
outs in the upper surface of the canopy tracks, located at or just aft of
the open canopy equilibrium point. This way, the canopy would never 'fall
off' during ground / mx ops, but in flight in should go easily. Like
anytime I forgot to latch the sucker for T/O....
Another option might be a pair of shortish arms, one at each canopy roller
station. They would stow against the forward hoop of the canopy frame.
Hinged at the bottom, cycling them aft would pull the roller retaining pins
and unlock the normal canopy latch. Continuing to pull aft would assist
the airstream to pull the canopy aft and clear of the windscreen fairing.
Poof! No more canopy.
Just thinking out loud, hoping to stir the creative pot....
So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky while
you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in your
RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at mach
45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the
airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and pull
and pull and pull...
Can you open it? Has anyone ever?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AOA - when going straight up |
If you were going straight up in an F-16 or maybe Burt let's you take
SpaceShipOne around the patch, the relative wind over the wings would be
the same as if your were in level flight wouldn't it?
HAL KEMPTHORNE wrote:
>
>Phil S. says there wouldn't be relative wind if your RV was going straight up.
I can see that it might not amount to much, but there would be some wouldn't
there? I'm not nit picking but just interested in learning.
>
>If one was going straight up in an F16 and fast enough, there would also be lift
I should think. I wonder what the stick forces would be then?
>
>hal
>
>
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve zicree" <szicree(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
I guess I was confused. I thought this was a forum for the EXCHANGE of
information and NEW ideas regarding RV building and flying. I wasn't aware
that if the veterans had already discussed something and formed their
opinion, that it was then off limits to those newer to the list. I am a
professor of mathematics, and as such am cursed with a need to solve
problems. When I see someone say that it is IMPOSSIBLE to do something like
raise a canopy, I want to know EXACTLY why. Whether other more seasoned
members know it or not, there IS a solution to the tip-up canopy jettison
problem, it just hasn't been found yet. I noticed that one builder mentioned
the idea of QR pins of some sort, but right away an EXPERT said that
couldn't work - too much pressure. Maybe some method for equalizing that
pressure first is needed. I'm reminded of the need to roll down the window
in a sumerged car before the door will open. I realize it's a thorny
problem, but the attitude really comes across as "We experts couldn't solve
it, so you novices definitely can't". As far as the archives being the
definitive source for info, this may not always be the case. As an
experienced auto/motorcycle/watercraft painter I did a search a while back
to see what people were using to paint their planes. What I saw was a long
list of misinformation about the relative merits of two-stage vs
single-stage systems, sanding methods, filler use, etc. I'm sure if this
topic comes up again, the vets will quickly refer the newbie to the archives
for their sage advice, while dismissing any newer contributor for not having
the requisite "thousands of hours logged". The other day I said that the
door release safety pin on a Decathlon was a bit small, and the response was
"No it's not. Are you a new pilot?" My response to this would be "Oh yes it
is, and yes I am". Am I to infer that as a new pilot, I'm not qualified to
determine if a safety pin is small?!? How many hours do I need to log before
I am qualified to know what fits my own hand?
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
> steve zicree wrote:
> >
> > I remember well, and sadly have to agree. The circumstances that would
> > require and allow a succesful egress and chute deployment are very, very
> > narrow indeed. However, if things do come to it, it may be the ONLY way
to
> > survive and therefore deserves thoughtful consideration.
> >
> > The tone of many of the more experienced gents on here brings to mind
> > another highly experienced master of machinery who didn't take the
claims of
> > safety equipment advocates seriously and paid: Dale Earnhardt.
> >
> > When I started flying only 4 short years ago, every old timer I met said
> > that GPS was crap and would never take the place of the trusty VOR! New
> > ideas are GOOD! Investigation is GOOD! Open-minded humility is GOOD.
>
>
> Steve, I must speak up for the old, experienced coots on this list that
> may have sounded like they were expressing less than "Open-minded
humility".
>
> You must keep in mind that the question of whether or not it is possible
> to jettison the tip-up canopy on the RV-6 has been hotly debated by
> RVer's for the nearly twenty years that the RV-6 has been in production.
> This is an old argument that has been hashed multiple times on this list
> and in countless hangar-flyin' sessions.
>
> What the "experienced gents" expressed was probably more of an
> eye-rolling impatience at having to revisit this issue *another* time
> rather than lack of humility. My comment of "prove me wrong" was a
> recognition that we all base our opinions on this subject purely on
> speculation since to our knowledge, nobody has ever jumped from a flying
> tip-up canopy RV-6. There have been instances of RV-4's losing the
> canopy, and there is the tragic Alexander RV-8 accident, but no known
> instances of that happening with an RV-6.
>
> As one who has personal experience with how difficult it can be to
> handle an open canopy in flight, it is my contention that wearing a
> parachute in a tip-up RV-6, 7, 9 is an exercise in futility. However,
> the ONLY way to prove otherwise is for somebody to actually jettison the
> canopy and successfully jump! Until that happens, all we can do is
> speculate on the odds of being able to actually egress from a flying
> tip-up RV. And that experiment will only prove the validity of that
> particular flight scenario.
>
> Having said this, I suspect a new builder will raise this question again
> in a couple of years, and it may be that you will be one of the "RV
> veterans" who will roll their eyes and say "not again....." and urge the
> newbie to read the scores of messages in the archives on this subject.
>
> Sometimes a perceived lack of humility is merely a reluctance to revisit
> a subject that still has no concrete answer and has been beat to death
> in the past.
>
> Best wishes on a successful and expeditious conclusion to your project,
>
> Sam Buchanan
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AOA - when going straight up |
HAL KEMPTHORNE wrote:
>
>Phil S. says there wouldn't be relative wind if your RV was going straight up.
I can see that it might not amount to much, but there would be some wouldn't
there? I'm not nit picking but just interested in learning.
>
>If one was going straight up in an F16 and fast enough, there would also be lift
I should think. I wonder what the stick forces would be then?
>
>hal
>
If the plane is moving through the air, there is relative wind. Just do
a true (vertical line) hammerhead or ride with someone who knows how if
you aren't comfortable doing one. Once on a vertical line, you must hold
slight down elevator or the wing will try to 'climb' over backward if
you haven't retrimmed from level flight. If you have inverted fuel & oil
(meaning the engine keeps running all the way to the top), the stick
will likely end up in the far right forward quadrant before you kick
rudder to rotate.
If you pull hard enough you can stall the wing going straight up (or any
other direction). Vertical snap rolls, up and down, are performed at
airshows all the time.
Charlie
(feeling a bit silly writing this with so many more experienced pilots
on the list)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
>First off, my understanding is that there is significant up force on a
>closed canopy. ...
This does not seem intuitive to me. Looking at the front
of an RV8, the top of the canopy sticks up over the top
of the windscreen, which tells me that the forces would
be pushing the canopy down, at least at the top of the
canopy.
>...
>I am building an -8 with a slider, tho. At first I liked the pull pin in
>the canopy roller idea. But if you guys are reporting that the uploads on
>the ajar canopy are so great that you can't move the canopy on it's
>rollers, then what chance do we have of pulling cylindrical (non-rollered)
>pins under the same load? ...
Could the problem be the down force that makes it hard to get
the rear part of the canopy up that first two inches?
>...
>
>Another option might be a pair of shortish arms, one at each canopy roller
>station. They would stow against the forward hoop of the canopy frame.
>Hinged at the bottom, cycling them aft would pull the roller retaining pins
>and unlock the normal canopy latch. Continuing to pull aft would assist
>the airstream to pull the canopy aft and clear of the windscreen fairing.
>Poof! No more canopy.
That seems to be a good idea. Something simple to give you a
mechanical advantage.
>Just thinking out loud, hoping to stir the creative pot....
It does seem like the need to jump out is almost non-existent,
and with one exception, I have not read any NTSB reports that
indicated that the need to punch existed.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve zicree" <szicree(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
When you say "almost non-existent", do you mean the need to punch out of an
RV or any aircraft?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
>
> >First off, my understanding is that there is significant up force on a
> >closed canopy. ...
>
> This does not seem intuitive to me. Looking at the front
> of an RV8, the top of the canopy sticks up over the top
> of the windscreen, which tells me that the forces would
> be pushing the canopy down, at least at the top of the
> canopy.
>
> >...
> >I am building an -8 with a slider, tho. At first I liked the pull pin in
> >the canopy roller idea. But if you guys are reporting that the uploads
on
> >the ajar canopy are so great that you can't move the canopy on it's
> >rollers, then what chance do we have of pulling cylindrical
(non-rollered)
> >pins under the same load? ...
>
> Could the problem be the down force that makes it hard to get
> the rear part of the canopy up that first two inches?
>
>
> >...
> >
> >Another option might be a pair of shortish arms, one at each canopy
roller
> >station. They would stow against the forward hoop of the canopy frame.
> >Hinged at the bottom, cycling them aft would pull the roller retaining
pins
> >and unlock the normal canopy latch. Continuing to pull aft would assist
> >the airstream to pull the canopy aft and clear of the windscreen fairing.
> >Poof! No more canopy.
>
> That seems to be a good idea. Something simple to give you a
> mechanical advantage.
>
>
> >Just thinking out loud, hoping to stir the creative pot....
>
> It does seem like the need to jump out is almost non-existent,
> and with one exception, I have not read any NTSB reports that
> indicated that the need to punch existed.
>
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | re: Stall Training |
Hi All-
This is my last post, I promise... for today, anyway.
The whole debate about requiring stall avoidance training vs. spin recovery
training is largely a political football. Just as eights on pylon come and
go from the syllabus every couple of decades, so does the stance on stalls.
It kind of reminds me of the whole 'is the glass half empty or half full'
debate. Personally, I choose to go fill the glass as full as I can and
then drink deeply. As students, we can ask to learn about whatever we
want. As instructors, we can teach whatever we feel is important, as long
as we meet the letter of the law along the way.
Way back when (before parachutes were req'd), all my students did the full
stall series, both imminent and full, and spun before they soloed. It was
an easy, non-traumatic, an universally enjoyed process. We covered the
ground school portion earlier in the curriculum. At some later date, with
no preflight brief on the subject of spins, I'd have the student do a full
departure stall to the right. This is of course, the single time when one
will need the most right rudder flying a US built plane. And (snicker) you
KNOW the student isn't going to supply that rudder without coaching. So I
didn't. Guess what? Spin entry to the left. The student will usually
release some back pressure and rudder, and voila! The trusty 152 is flying
again. If a little coaching is needed, so be it. With no other direction
at that moment, the student will recover to the default condition of
straight and level. Then they look at you and say, 'was that a spin? That
was fun! Can we do that again?'
As we all know, flying is 95% between the ears. By sneaking it up on the
student, they couldn't stress out about the impending death-defying
maneuver. Thus, stress induced tunnel vision wasn't there to impede their
performance. By doing it in a plane like a 152, the inputs required for a
successful outcome were miniscule. The end result was a slew of students
that were all better prepared to deal with inadvertent spin situations, and
had a higher comfort level overall since there was one less unknown to be
fearful of. Not to mention the object lesson about what uncoordinated
flight at the edge of the envelope can produce.
Education is good, and one never knows when some odd bit of what you
learned will come in handy. But if you never learned it in the first
place....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Edward Cole" <edwardmcole(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
Steve, the argument here is not over whether or not to use a parachute
but rather, can you get out of the aircraft? In a RV6/7 tilt-up, I'd say
you would be hard pressed to do so.
I remember Von, and had corresponded with him shortly before his
accident.
I have no idea how he got out of that airplane.
Ed Cole
RV6A N2169D Flying
RV6A N648RV Finishing
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve zicree
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
I remember well, and sadly have to agree. The circumstances that would
require and allow a succesful egress and chute deployment are very, very
narrow indeed. However, if things do come to it, it may be the ONLY way
to
survive and therefore deserves thoughtful consideration.
The tone of many of the more experienced gents on here brings to mind
another highly experienced master of machinery who didn't take the
claims of
safety equipment advocates seriously and paid: Dale Earnhardt.
When I started flying only 4 short years ago, every old timer I met said
that GPS was crap and would never take the place of the trusty VOR! New
ideas are GOOD! Investigation is GOOD! Open-minded humility is GOOD.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott VanArtsdalen" <svanarts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
> I can think of one situation where I'd open the canopy and egress
under
> controlled flight.
>
> Anyone remember Von Alexander? There's more reasons than just loss of
> control to open your canopy.
>
> Edward Cole wrote:
>
> >
> >If the situation arose that you would consider bailing out of a RV6/7
> >tilt-up, I would assume that control of the aircraft would have to be
> >lost and you would be flailing about the cabin against unimaginable
> >forces.
> >In this case you would still have to be able to disconnect the lift
> >struts,
> >pull the emergency release handle, push the canopy up far enough
against
> >a 150-200 mph wind to throw it up over your head before you could
exit
> >the aircraft.
> >The other scenario is that you are straight and level and still have
to
> >go through the same maneuvers. Of course if you were straight and
level
> >and in control of the aircraft, why jump out?
> >The bottom line is that jettisoning the canopy in flight would be
> >practically impossible. The posts concerning takeoff and flight with
> >an open canopy shows how tough it is to even move the canopy.
> >
> >
> >Ed Cole
> >RV6A N2169D Flying
> >RV6A N648RV Finishing
> >
> >
>
> --
> Scott VanArtsdalen
> Van Arts Consulting Services
> 3848 McHenry Ave
> Suite #155-184
> Modesto, CA 95356
> 209-986-4647
> Ps 34:4,6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Bundy" <edbundy(at)velocitus.net> |
Personally I think both of these issues are important. I have always
trained my students to be able to fully stall and recover the airplane in
all normal configurations. I also train them to fully understand and
recognize pre-stall conditions.
The aircraft I train in (C152 and Cherokee 180) are both similar in their
pre-stall warnings. First the stall horn comes on (stall light in the 180),
then the controls get "mushy", then there is some slight buffeting, then the
aircraft stalls. When doing any type of stall, I require the student call
out when the horn comes on, when the controls get mushy, and when the
buffeting starts - then that any additional aft yoke will cause the stall.
Then they stall and recover. By ingraining the pre-stall indications,
hopefully they will never experience an inadvertent stall.
Everyone should certainly know how to recover from an intentional and
inadvertent stall. But equally important is to be able to recognize an
imminent inadvertent stall, and correct it before the airplane stalls. If
all inadvertent stalls were corrected before the fact there would be no
stall/spin accidents. Also, not all aircraft exhibit all 3 of these
pre-stall warnings, but they all exhibit at least one.
Actually, I don't think the FAA promotes "recovery at first indication" as
being the only or even most important part of stall training. In the
private pilot PTS, objective 6 for power on/off stalls is that the applicant
"recognizes and recovers promptly *after the stall occurs* by... (emphasis
mine). It doesn't even say anything about recognizing pre-stall
indications.
That said, both of the examiners I deal with require full stall recover AND
initial indication proficiency. Personally, I agree.
Ed Bundy - Eagle, Idaho
RV6A 600+ hours
> This FAA sanctioned/fostered/promoted "approach to stalls"/"start recovery
> at the first indication of a stall" thing is the single most
> serious safety
> problem that exists in this country, in General Aviation - in my opinion.
> It is the only aviation issue I am absolutely PASSIONATE about.
> - All pilots should be - but are not -properly instructed in the
> essential knowledge of safe recovery from a stall. The bi-annual reviews
> and initial flight instruction have been fatally poisoned by the
> FAA idiocy
> so that I see no evidence of proper instruction and practice.
> >
> > Recent discussion here and an article in Flying talked about the reduced
> > focus on stall training in modern flight instruction programs, and
> > seemed to question the need for stall / spin training. Maybe I'm missing
> > something, but putting aside the need to actually spin the airplane -
> > isn't the real learning point recognition of the approach to stall in
> > all flight regions, not necessarily the reaction once the full stall
>
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
>When you say "almost non-existent", do you mean the need to punch out of an
>RV or any aircraft?
Hi Steve,
I'm thinking about RVs, and basing this on the NTSB stats.
The only cases I can think of that might warrant a bail-out
would be inflight fire, midair collision, structural/control
failure, and perhaps engine failure over hostile terrain.
These would also be good places to use a ballistic parachute,
if you have one on your aircraft.
I don't have exact numbers handy, but my reading of the NTSB
stats shows that these problems don't happen often in an RV.
Best regards,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)bowenaero.com> |
| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
You are making assumptions regarding attitude. Maybe it will open when in
an inverted flat spin, or cartwheeling because the empennage has been cut of
from a mid-air, etc, etc.
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> Your canopy slides back in flight? On my 8 it will not,
> unless maybe I have some sort of pry bar. We have been
> through this in the past and I am amazed at how easy
> people think it is to open/close the canopy in
> flight. No insults intended towards anyone just my experience.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve zicree" <szicree(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
Suppose the plane is broken and tumbling. Will it open then? Deep in a
stall? Many on the list have said the the parachute is worthless since you
CAN'T get out. Well I say there are situations where you MIGHT be able to
get out and that's what matters. We had an airplane out here in Long Beach,
CA a couple of years ago lose elevator control. The pilots were both
skydivers, and so they opted to go for a swim rather than try to fly using
trim control. Now, with little or no elevator control, an aircraft might
start porpoising and might just help toss that canopy off. I know it's a
stretch, but freaky things happen. I think the prevailing theory regarding
Von Alexander's accident is that something pushed the stick forward and
caused a negative g situation. I believe the canopy of his 8 was already
off.
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Cole" <edwardmcole(at)comcast.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
> Steve, the argument here is not over whether or not to use a parachute
> but rather, can you get out of the aircraft? In a RV6/7 tilt-up, I'd say
> you would be hard pressed to do so.
> I remember Von, and had corresponded with him shortly before his
> accident.
> I have no idea how he got out of that airplane.
>
>
> Ed Cole
> RV6A N2169D Flying
> RV6A N648RV Finishing
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve zicree
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
>
> I remember well, and sadly have to agree. The circumstances that would
> require and allow a succesful egress and chute deployment are very, very
> narrow indeed. However, if things do come to it, it may be the ONLY way
> to
> survive and therefore deserves thoughtful consideration.
>
> The tone of many of the more experienced gents on here brings to mind
> another highly experienced master of machinery who didn't take the
> claims of
> safety equipment advocates seriously and paid: Dale Earnhardt.
>
> When I started flying only 4 short years ago, every old timer I met said
> that GPS was crap and would never take the place of the trusty VOR! New
> ideas are GOOD! Investigation is GOOD! Open-minded humility is GOOD.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott VanArtsdalen" <svanarts(at)yahoo.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
>
> >
> > I can think of one situation where I'd open the canopy and egress
> under
> > controlled flight.
> >
> > Anyone remember Von Alexander? There's more reasons than just loss of
> > control to open your canopy.
> >
> > Edward Cole wrote:
> >
>
> > >
> > >If the situation arose that you would consider bailing out of a RV6/7
> > >tilt-up, I would assume that control of the aircraft would have to be
> > >lost and you would be flailing about the cabin against unimaginable
> > >forces.
> > >In this case you would still have to be able to disconnect the lift
> > >struts,
> > >pull the emergency release handle, push the canopy up far enough
> against
> > >a 150-200 mph wind to throw it up over your head before you could
> exit
> > >the aircraft.
> > >The other scenario is that you are straight and level and still have
> to
> > >go through the same maneuvers. Of course if you were straight and
> level
> > >and in control of the aircraft, why jump out?
> > >The bottom line is that jettisoning the canopy in flight would be
> > >practically impossible. The posts concerning takeoff and flight with
> > >an open canopy shows how tough it is to even move the canopy.
> > >
> > >
> > >Ed Cole
> > >RV6A N2169D Flying
> > >RV6A N648RV Finishing
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Scott VanArtsdalen
> > Van Arts Consulting Services
> > 3848 McHenry Ave
> > Suite #155-184
> > Modesto, CA 95356
> > 209-986-4647
> > Ps 34:4,6
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)bowenaero.com> |
| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
There is no pressure on them in flight, with the canopy latched. They can
be pulled easily.
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kathleen(at)rv7.us [mailto:Kathleen(at)rv7.us]
> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 12:54 PM
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
>
> Very good idea. Have you tried pulling the pins with LOTS of
> pressure on the canopy? We'd probably all like to know if it
> works. Just don't break your canopy trying.. :-)
>
> Kathleen Evans
> www.rv7.us
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Bowen
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
>
> Never done it. Hope I never have to.
>
> But I installed quick release pins just in case.
>
> http://bowenaero.com/mt3/archives/2003/11/canopy.html
>
> -
> Larry Bowen
> Larry(at)BowenAero.com
> http://BowenAero.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kathleen(at)rv7.us [mailto:Kathleen(at)rv7.us]
> > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 3:10 AM
> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> >
> >
> > So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back
> to blue sky
> > while you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how
> easy it is
> > in your RV-#, when there is a, "bang!"
> > Next you're whistling toward earth at mach 45, but not
> worried because
> > you wore your chute. You can't control the airplane, so
> it's time to
> > hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and pull and pull and pull...
> >
> > Can you open it? Has anyone ever?
> >
> > Kathleen Evans
> > www.rv7.us
>
>
> ========
> ========
> Matronics Forums.
> ========
> ========
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
Just to pose a dumb scenario? Assuming that you could not get the canopy on
a slider open, and the airplane is not violently spinning,..... what would
keep you from grabbing the passenger side stick, beating the *ell out of the
slider canopy, and scooting out through the broken hole. (Also assuming you
had a chute) Also likely that after breaking the canopy, the airstream force
holding it down/up pick one, would be diminished and it might slide back
fairly easily?
I agree that if it's under control, daylight, etc, ride it to the ground.
What about the recent post where the windscreen was completely covered with
oil (ice?). No visibility front or side. Is breaking the slider part,
leaving the windshield intact an option to give you side visibility? Would
think it's doable with the slider but problematic with the tip up?
Bill Schlatterer
7a QB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Scott
VanArtsdalen
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
I can think of one situation where I'd open the canopy and egress under
controlled flight.
Anyone remember Von Alexander? There's more reasons than just loss of
control to open your canopy.
Edward Cole wrote:
>
>If the situation arose that you would consider bailing out of a RV6/7
>tilt-up, I would assume that control of the aircraft would have to be
>lost and you would be flailing about the cabin against unimaginable
>forces.
>In this case you would still have to be able to disconnect the lift
>struts,
>pull the emergency release handle, push the canopy up far enough against
>a 150-200 mph wind to throw it up over your head before you could exit
>the aircraft.
>The other scenario is that you are straight and level and still have to
>go through the same maneuvers. Of course if you were straight and level
>and in control of the aircraft, why jump out?
>The bottom line is that jettisoning the canopy in flight would be
>practically impossible. The posts concerning takeoff and flight with
>an open canopy shows how tough it is to even move the canopy.
>
>
>Ed Cole
>RV6A N2169D Flying
>RV6A N648RV Finishing
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
>
> >First off, my understanding is that there is significant up force on a
> >closed canopy. ...
>
>This does not seem intuitive to me. Looking at the front
>of an RV8, the top of the canopy sticks up over the top
>of the windscreen, which tells me that the forces would
>be pushing the canopy down, at least at the top of the
>canopy.
If we follow the same logic, we should conclude that the air would hit the
curved part on the upper leading edge of the wing, and cause a downwards
force. But it doesn't - the force on the wing is upwards, because the air
accelerates over that curved leading edge. And Bernoulli's Law tells us
that the air pressure decreases when it accelerates. The lower pressure on
top of the wing makes a significant contribution to the lift. The same
thing happens as the air goes over the windscreen and the curved front part
of the canopy. The air has to accelerate, and that causes the pressure to
fall.
Another, more complicated, way to look at it is to consider that Newton's
First Law tells us that an object continues in a straight line unless a
force is applied to it. So, the air that is going up the slope of the
windscreen would tend to keep going in that direction. But it follows a
curved path to go over the top of the canopy. It is forced into this
curved path because the pressure at the canopy surface is lower than the
free stream pressure. This pressure difference provides the force needed
to push that air stream "around the corner" from the windscreen to the
canopy top. The Newton's First Law and Bernoulli's Law explanation are
simply different views of the same phenomenon.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
There is significant down force on the canopy due to it's shape and the
prop blast hitting it. If a guy could pull some pins and raise the
canopy slightly in the front allowing the prop blast to get under it,
even a tip up canopy would disappear post haste. I would think. There
are several accounts of how the RV-4's canopy departs and it has much
smaller area than a 6 canopy.
Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>First off, my understanding is that there is significant up force on a
>>closed canopy. ...
>>
>>
>
>This does not seem intuitive to me. Looking at the front
>of an RV8, the top of the canopy sticks up over the top
>of the windscreen, which tells me that the forces would
>be pushing the canopy down, at least at the top of the
>canopy.
>
>
>
>>...
>>I am building an -8 with a slider, tho. At first I liked the pull pin in
>>the canopy roller idea. But if you guys are reporting that the uploads on
>>the ajar canopy are so great that you can't move the canopy on it's
>>rollers, then what chance do we have of pulling cylindrical (non-rollered)
>>pins under the same load? ...
>>
>>
>
>Could the problem be the down force that makes it hard to get
>the rear part of the canopy up that first two inches?
>
>
>
>
>>...
>>
>>Another option might be a pair of shortish arms, one at each canopy roller
>>station. They would stow against the forward hoop of the canopy frame.
>>Hinged at the bottom, cycling them aft would pull the roller retaining pins
>>and unlock the normal canopy latch. Continuing to pull aft would assist
>>the airstream to pull the canopy aft and clear of the windscreen fairing.
>>Poof! No more canopy.
>>
>>
>
>That seems to be a good idea. Something simple to give you a
>mechanical advantage.
>
>
>
>
>>Just thinking out loud, hoping to stir the creative pot....
>>
>>
>
>It does seem like the need to jump out is almost non-existent,
>and with one exception, I have not read any NTSB reports that
>indicated that the need to punch existed.
>
>
>--
>Mickey Coggins
>http://www.rv8.ch/
>#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "D. Wayne Stiles" <dwstiles(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | new guys questions |
My buddy Jim and I are getting ready to start on his RV-7 kit. We working on the
practice pieces right now andhope to get our confidence/proficiencylevel up
to the point of starting the empenage soon. We have a couple of questions.
1) We are working in our local EAA chapter's unheated hangar (for now) the cold
seems to really mess up the rivit gun. Instead of driving the rivits it just
seems to suffer from a high pitched case of flatulance. We even borrowed another
RV-ers gun and got the same effect. Heating the gun with a lamp or a hair dryer
will help for a whle but when it cools off again the problem returns
What causes this type of problem? What, short of heaitng the hangar, or moving
to project to another location might provide a solution?
2) What is the current trend/thought regarding the re-drilling/match reaming of
the prepunched holes?
3) Re: priming (not primer) at what stage is the interior primer applied: before
dimpling, reaming etc or after but prior to assembly.
Jim and Waynein Niles MI
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com> |
| Subject: | prop flange oil leak |
This is not really RV related, but I know there are a bunch of engine gurus
on the list.
My friend has a Lycoming engine with a fixed pitch prop and it is leaking
oil on the front face of the prop. If I remember correctly there is a hole
in the crankshaft and prop flange for when a constant speed prop is used. I
believe that there is some type of plug or gasket that goes over this hole
when a fixed pitch prop is used that keeps oil from leaking out and it is a
simple matter of removing the prop and replacing it if it leaks. Am I
correct on this?
Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Davis" <rvpilot(at)access4less.net> |
| Subject: | Re: hand held radio |
Evan,
I have a "like new" Icom IC-A23 that I would be willing to sell for $250.
It has the VOR feature plus the alkaline battery pack as well as the regular
Mi-MH battery The unit is about 1.5 yrs old but was used very little, mainly
as a back up in case my Comm. ever went out.
Regards, Bill Davis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg(at)snowcrest.net>
Subject: RV-List: hand held radio
>
> Guys, I am in need of a portable (hand held) back up radio. The old radio
in my C-150 went south and I dont feel like replacing it. I am planning on
buying a new X-com or micro air for my RV 10 but I am not allowed to use
either in the Cessna. So I thought I would just invest now in a back up to
use until I am ready to buy for the RV. Just wondering what everybody else
is using and where the best deals are.
> Thanks a bunch....Evan
> www.evansaviationproducts.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | linn walters <lwalters2(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: prop flange oil leak |
Brian Kraut wrote:
>
>This is not really RV related, but I know there are a bunch of engine gurus
>on the list.
>
>My friend has a Lycoming engine with a fixed pitch prop and it is leaking
>oil on the front face of the prop. If I remember correctly there is a hole
>in the crankshaft and prop flange for when a constant speed prop is used. I
>believe that there is some type of plug or gasket that goes over this hole
>when a fixed pitch prop is used that keeps oil from leaking out and it is a
>simple matter of removing the prop and replacing it if it leaks. Am I
>correct on this?
>
>Brian Kraut
>Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
>www.engalt.com
>
Well, it may not need replacing, but just reseating. I'd try the
reseating first so jump to step 2. So, if that's where the oil is
coming from (and I suspect you're right and if step 2 doesn't work) you
need to order the plug (not a high $ item), and then remove the prop.
Step 1: Use a punch to put a hole in the middle of the plug (DON'T
DRILL IT!!!) and pop the plug out. It's just like an expansion (freeze)
plug in car engines. Step 2: When you install the new plug, get a
round piece of metal that will fit inside the crank and against the
plug. Make sure that it's flat on the end against the plug. Rap the
'seating tool' smartly with a fairly large hammer.
While the plug is out, clean the crank bore real good and check for
pits. I'm not sure, but there seems to be an AD out there addressing
the pits. The AD may not apply to your engine, but as long as you're in
there look anyway.
Linn
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve zicree" <szicree(at)adelphia.net> |
Listers,
I asked a while back about the hand formed clevis at the handle end of the canopy
latch rods on the 4. Well, after making them I just couldn't accept their looks
and the function was less than perfect too. What I came up with was to replace
the .058 wall tubing with .083, which allowed me to tap them to 1/4-28.
I then attached some real nice little balljoints at the ends with studs that slip
right into the handle. I know it's a very small detail, but the ball joints
pivot nicely and it looks much better than smashing the ends flat. I now want
to finish the job by putting some sort of bullet shaped tip on the ends that
penetrate the bulkheads to replace the half-tapered tips called out in the plans.
I'm picturing something like the point on a target arrow, hopefully with
a 1/4-28 thread on it. It could also be JB Welded in if it has some sort of stud
on it. I'm hoping that someone will have a good idea of what I can use. Thanks
for the assist.
Steve Zicree
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris W <1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: new guys questions |
D. Wayne Stiles wrote:
>1) We are working in our local EAA chapter's unheated hangar (for now) the cold
seems to really mess up the rivit gun. Instead of driving the rivits it just
seems to suffer from a high pitched case of flatulance. We even borrowed another
RV-ers gun and got the same effect. Heating the gun with a lamp or a hair
dryer will help for a whle but when it cools off again the problem returns
>What causes this type of problem? What, short of heaitng the hangar, or moving
to project to another location might provide a solution?
>
>
>
Maybe a lighter oil or one that is designed for very cold temperatures
in the rivet gun would help. That's the sensible idea, here is the
slightly crazy one.
Get a small propane heater to heat the area where you are working, get a
coil of aluminum or copper tubing, copper is cheaper I think, and it
will easily hold the pressure. Put some fittings on the ends and hang
it between you and the heater. Plumb your air supply through the coil
to supply hot air to keep the rivet gun and your hands warm. Just make
sure you don't get it too close too the heater, those little heaters can
get stuff pretty dang hot if it is too close.
Chris W
Simplify gift giving this holiday season with the help of The Wish Zone.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: new guys questions |
On 13 Nov 2004 at 18:17, D. Wayne Stiles wrote:
>
>
> My buddy Jim and I are getting ready to start on his RV-7 kit. We
> working on the practice pieces right now and hope to get our
> confidence/proficiencylevel up to the point of starting the empenage
> soon. We have a couple of questions.
>
> 1) We are working in our local EAA chapter's unheated hangar (for now)
> the cold seems to really mess up the rivit gun. Instead of driving the
> rivits it just seems to suffer from a high pitched case of flatulance.
> We even borrowed another RV-ers gun and got the same effect. Heating
> the gun with a lamp or a hair dryer will help for a whle but when it
> cools off again the problem returns What causes this type of problem?
> What, short of heaitng the hangar, or moving to project to another
> location might provide a solution?
Sorry, Can't help here. Iive in Miami Florida
>
> 2) What is the current trend/thought regarding the re-drilling/match
> reaming of the prepunched holes?
Do It.
>
> 3) Re: priming (not primer) at what stage is the interior primer
> applied: before dimpling, reaming etc or after but prior to assembly.
Drill, debur holes and edges before dimpling.
Etch with Alumiprep 33 and use a chromic acid conversion such as Alodine which
is
made by Henkle Surface Technologies. ( 800 521 1355) or Iridite 14-2 made by
MacDermid. and distributed by Allied Plating (800 432 8692). Then use a milspec
two part epoxy primer (MIL-P-23377D type1, class1) such as Sterling or US Paint's
30-Y-94(314 621 0525)
This should take care of all nine types of aluminum corrosion.
Peter
>
>
> advertising on the Matronics Forums.
> >
>
>
>
Peter Laurence
RV9A wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Canopy latch |
Steve
Do you have photos of this?
If so would you email them to me?
Peter
plaurence@the-beach.net
On 13 Nov 2004 at 18:32, steve zicree wrote:
>
> Listers,
>
> I asked a while back about the hand formed clevis at the handle end of
> the canopy latch rods on the 4. Well, after making them I just
> couldn't accept their looks and the function was less than perfect
> too. What I came up with was to replace the .058 wall tubing with
> .083, which allowed me to tap them to 1/4-28. I then attached some
> real nice little balljoints at the ends with studs that slip right
> into the handle. I know it's a very small detail, but the ball joints
> pivot nicely and it looks much better than smashing the ends flat. I
> now want to finish the job by putting some sort of bullet shaped tip
> on the ends that penetrate the bulkheads to replace the half-tapered
> tips called out in the plans. I'm picturing something like the point
> on a target arrow, hopefully with a 1/4-28 thread on it. It could also
> be JB Welded in if it has some sort of stud on it. I'm hoping that
> someone will have a good idea of what I can use. Thanks for the
> assist.
>
> Steve Zicree
>
>
> advertising on the Matronics Forums.
> >
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve zicree" <szicree(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Canopy latch |
They're on the way
----- Original Message -----
From: <plaurence@the-beach.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy latch
>
> Steve
> Do you have photos of this?
>
> If so would you email them to me?
>
>
> Peter
> plaurence@the-beach.net
>
>
> On 13 Nov 2004 at 18:32, steve zicree wrote:
>
> >
> > Listers,
> >
> > I asked a while back about the hand formed clevis at the handle end of
> > the canopy latch rods on the 4. Well, after making them I just
> > couldn't accept their looks and the function was less than perfect
> > too. What I came up with was to replace the .058 wall tubing with
> > .083, which allowed me to tap them to 1/4-28. I then attached some
> > real nice little balljoints at the ends with studs that slip right
> > into the handle. I know it's a very small detail, but the ball joints
> > pivot nicely and it looks much better than smashing the ends flat. I
> > now want to finish the job by putting some sort of bullet shaped tip
> > on the ends that penetrate the bulkheads to replace the half-tapered
> > tips called out in the plans. I'm picturing something like the point
> > on a target arrow, hopefully with a 1/4-28 thread on it. It could also
> > be JB Welded in if it has some sort of stud on it. I'm hoping that
> > someone will have a good idea of what I can use. Thanks for the
> > assist.
> >
> > Steve Zicree
> >
> >
> > advertising on the Matronics Forums.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Mack" <don(at)dmack.net> |
| Subject: | Miscellaneous stuff for donation |
I have several items I have laying around that I will never use:
3 pairs of stainless steel shields for protecting grommets in firewall. Size
1" x 1/4" - Van's price is $7.50 a pair. Van's part number SSFS-1X1/4H
1 cable for Carb Heat, Cabin Heat, etc. - Black knob - Vans price is
$24.30 - Van's part number CT A-740 BLACK
2 Camlocks used on oil door
1.5" aluminum flange for ducting - Aircraft Spruce price $6.20
3 Pairs of Headset/mic jacks
I don't want $ for them. I will mail them to you for free (within the U.S).
Just make a donation to the Matronics November fundraiser -
http://www.matronics.com/contribution/
Contact me directly if you are interested in any of this stuff.
Don Mack
don(at)dmack.net
www.dmack.net
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net> |
| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
steve zicree wrote:
>
> Mark,
> I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
> deal you think it is.
I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
spins would expect.
I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
RV canopies are received as well. :-)
Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do!)
_-====================================================================
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Miscellaneous stuff for donation |
Don,
I sure could use the camlocks and the 1.5 alum flange.
Don Mack wrote:
>
>I have several items I have laying around that I will never use:
>
>3 pairs of stainless steel shields for protecting grommets in firewall. Size
>1" x 1/4" - Van's price is $7.50 a pair. Van's part number SSFS-1X1/4H
>
>1 cable for Carb Heat, Cabin Heat, etc. - Black knob - Vans price is
>$24.30 - Van's part number CT A-740 BLACK
>
>2 Camlocks used on oil door
>
>1.5" aluminum flange for ducting - Aircraft Spruce price $6.20
>
>3 Pairs of Headset/mic jacks
>
>I don't want $ for them. I will mail them to you for free (within the U.S).
>Just make a donation to the Matronics November fundraiser -
>http://www.matronics.com/contribution/
>
>Contact me directly if you are interested in any of this stuff.
>
>Don Mack
>don(at)dmack.net
>www.dmack.net
>
>
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>
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>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
I can sure believe this. When I did my transition training with Mike
Seager in the RV-6 the few stalls we did were pretty disconcerting for
this Airknocker pilot. I was accustomed to holding my Champ in a stall
and just walking it down with rudders. The first stall I did in the 6
felt like the world was just dropping out from under me. Then I lowered
the nose and tried to bring it back up again like I would in the Champ
to start flying again but there was an even more abrupt stall right
after the first. Mike just sat there with his hands folded neatly in
his lap and calmly said, "OK, now that's a secondary stall, let's try to
avoid a third."
Anyway this had me really rattled for doing the first stalls in my
RV-4. But the 4 stalls very differently from the 6. Not the dramatic
drop you get in the 6. Well... I considered it a pretty dramatic drop
anyway.
I guess the point is, don't generalize these airplanes. Each model has
it's own peculiar handling charactaristics. Be familiar with them. I
wouldn't spin a 6 just to be familiar with it's spin charactaristics.
I'd research it and figure out how to avoid them. I've researched
enough to know that spins are safely doable in an RV-4. Not safe with a
passenger in the back. Not safe with me doing them because I've NEVER
spun an airplane. Probably never will.
Remember, we build 'em, we test 'em, we fly 'em. Do all three as safely
as you can within your personal capabilities, and the capabilities of
your airplane.
Sam Buchanan wrote:
>
>steve zicree wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Mark,
>>I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
>>deal you think it is.
>>
>>
>
>
>I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
>spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
>to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
>credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
>survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
>another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
>
>Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
>are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
>not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
>plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
>attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
>spins would expect.
>
>I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
>RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
>planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
>probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
>RV canopies are received as well. :-)
>
>Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do!)
>
>
>_-====================================================================
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>_->_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the
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>
>
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
_-====================================================================
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve zicree" <szicree(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
Holy crap, what is your problem? Read the post I was responding to a bit
more carefully. You've got a pilot talking about doing split-s's and loops
in an aircraft that they're terrified of spinning!?! Does this really make
sense to you? Can a botched loop turn into a spin? A split-s? Did I say that
the plane spins well? Did I say he should rush out and see? I simply
suggested that a spin in a 6 was probably not the end of the world and that
aerobatics should not be done without adequate spin recovery training in
SOMETHING. I've made it clear that I've no experience in RV's, but I know
enough to know that aerobatics without solid spin recovery capability is
about as dumb as it gets. As for the canopy thing, I'll give in to your
all-knowing-ness: I hereby declare that it is impossible for a tip-up canopy
to be jetissoned in any flight regime by anyone or anything, and that nobody
will ever find a way to do so. I further promise to cease any investigation
into said problem until I have accumulated sufficient RV flight time as
determined by the elders of the RV list or 606 hrs, whichever comes first.
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
>
> steve zicree wrote:
> >
> > Mark,
> > I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
> > deal you think it is.
>
>
> I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
> spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
> to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
> credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
> survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
> another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
>
> Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
> are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
> not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
> plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
> attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
> spins would expect.
>
> I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
> RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
> planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
> probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
> RV canopies are received as well. :-)
>
> Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do!)
>
>
> _-====================================================================
> _-> _-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve zicree" <szicree(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
Oh, and one more thing. When you excerpt my post, at least do me the
courtesy of not intentionally deleting context in order to strengthen your
position.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
>
> steve zicree wrote:
> >
> > Mark,
> > I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
> > deal you think it is.
>
>
> I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
> spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
> to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
> credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
> survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
> another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
>
> Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
> are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
> not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
> plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
> attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
> spins would expect.
>
> I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
> RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
> planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
> probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
> RV canopies are received as well. :-)
>
> Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do!)
>
>
> _-====================================================================
> _-> _-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
> _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> _-> _-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the
> _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this
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> _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com!
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> _-> _-= Thank you for your generous support!
> _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> _-> _-====================================================================
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> _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions
> _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other
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>
>
_-====================================================================
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Jackson" <jayeandscott(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
Here I'll have to meekly raise my hand as one who intentionally spun his
newly-minted RV-6, not just once, but about a dozen times in one flight.
I did wear my 'chute, thinking I could get out if I had to, and had emptied
the inside of absolutely everything-not even the passenger seat cushions
were in.
Having previously done-and very much enjoyed-countless spins in a clip-wing
Cub and single-seat Pitts, I was still surprized by the sharpness of the
spin entry of the -6. The ground does indeed go around much faster and the
nose appears to be almost straight down; for the first couple of spins the
only part of the world that wasn't a blur was a tiny piece of the earth
directly in front of the spinner, until I adjusted to the rotation rate.
I also found that it took full back stick to keep it spinning, any release
of back pressure immediately brought the "G" on with a vengeance as it
switched to a spiral dive, although it kept going around at that
disconcerting rate. I was intentionally at a pretty forward cofg with light
fuel and emtpy baggage, while solo to enhance the recovery.
I had read about spin and spin recovery in my builders' manual ahead of
time, and this was just another part of opening the envelope up during the
testing period, I thought. I wasn't aware that actually spinning -6's is
kinda' rare, which I'm gathering from this thread.
Based on the advice in the manual, I did not let any of the spins get beyond
two turns. I wasn't able to stop it spinning exactly on the lines I wanted
in only a handful of them, as the time to respond to spin-recovery control
inputs seemed a little unpredictable.
Scott in Vancouver
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
>
> steve zicree wrote:
>>
>> Mark,
>> I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
>> deal you think it is.
>
>
> I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
> spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
> to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
> credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
> survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
> another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
>
> Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
> are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
> not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
> plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
> attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
> spins would expect.
>
> I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
> RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
> planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
> probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
> RV canopies are received as well. :-)
>
> Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do!)
>
>
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| From: | Wheeler North <wnorth(at)sdccd.cc.ca.us> |
"'owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com '"(at)matronics.com
Well,
I have to go back to a pitch that I have heard Van give a dozen times.
Practice slow flight..... a lot, regularly.
I have regularly gone out and shot about 20 consecutive stalls at various
attitudes and conditions at least three or four times a year. After that the
engine needs to cool down, but it realy improves my landings when I do it.
Don't know about other planes, but RVs will stall nicely going straight up,
done it many times when pulling too much in a slow loop. They'll do it going
straight down as well.
I would also caution since there has been so much discussion about spins
that those with small tail sixes remember Van's caution against spins.
In fact I was going to ask Jerry S if he has noticed much difference in spin
recovery with his larger vert and rudder? Although I used to spin some on
other aircraft I have resisted this since the old guy who designed these
puppies didn't recommend it. I would love to go back to doing them though,
so am curious if the big tail is a legitimate fix for this.
As I said in an earlier post, the Dynon D-10A should already have an audio
AOA capacity. I don't know if they have the software part of it worked out
though as I haven't upgraded to it yet. You Dynon boys out lurking on the
list have any input on this???
W
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| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
>...
>He convinced me it was a very bad idea to play test pilot of this sort in a
>homebuilt if I valued myself, my family and MOST OF ALL... my precious, one
>of a kind aircraft, unless I could do it the way the pros did.
>...
Sounds like good advice. Did he tell you how the pros do it?
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
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| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
>> >First off, my understanding is that there is significant up force on a
>> >closed canopy. ...
>>
>>This does not seem intuitive to me. Looking at the front
>>of an RV8, the top of the canopy sticks up over the top
>>of the windscreen, which tells me that the forces would
>>be pushing the canopy down, at least at the top of the
>>canopy.
>
>If we follow the same logic, we should conclude that the air would hit the
>curved part on the upper leading edge of the wing, and cause a downwards
>force. But it doesn't - the force on the wing is upwards, because the air
>accelerates over that curved leading edge. And Bernoulli's Law tells us
>that the air pressure decreases when it accelerates. The lower pressure on
>top of the wing makes a significant contribution to the lift. The same
>thing happens as the air goes over the windscreen and the curved front part
>of the canopy. The air has to accelerate, and that causes the pressure to
>fall.
>
>Another, more complicated, way to look at it is to consider that Newton's
>First Law tells us that an object continues in a straight line unless a
>force is applied to it. So, the air that is going up the slope of the
>windscreen would tend to keep going in that direction. But it follows a
>curved path to go over the top of the canopy. It is forced into this
>curved path because the pressure at the canopy surface is lower than the
>free stream pressure. This pressure difference provides the force needed
>to push that air stream "around the corner" from the windscreen to the
>canopy top. The Newton's First Law and Bernoulli's Law explanation are
>simply different views of the same phenomenon.
This is a bit brutal for a Sunday morning! :-)
I thought that Bernoulli effect of lift has been seen to be far less
than originally postulated, and that it's really Newton's third law
of physics (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction)
that allows us to fly. Essentially, we are pushing a mass of air down
that exactly equals the amount of lift that the airplane generates.
Also, since there are so many lifting surface shapes and angles of
attack that it seems surprising that the canopy shape happens to be
one that generates lift. These are all things that made me guess,
and it's only a guess, that the forces on the canopy would be downward.
Looks like I'll have to do some tufting when I get flying to get a
better answer, or perhaps more confused!
Best regards,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
>
> >If we follow the same logic, we should conclude that the air would hit the
> >curved part on the upper leading edge of the wing, and cause a downwards
> >force. But it doesn't - the force on the wing is upwards, because the air
> >accelerates over that curved leading edge. And Bernoulli's Law tells us
> >that the air pressure decreases when it accelerates. The lower pressure on
> >top of the wing makes a significant contribution to the lift. The same
> >thing happens as the air goes over the windscreen and the curved front part
> >of the canopy. The air has to accelerate, and that causes the pressure to
> >fall.
> >
> >Another, more complicated, way to look at it is to consider that Newton's
> >First Law tells us that an object continues in a straight line unless a
> >force is applied to it. So, the air that is going up the slope of the
> >windscreen would tend to keep going in that direction. But it follows a
> >curved path to go over the top of the canopy. It is forced into this
> >curved path because the pressure at the canopy surface is lower than the
> >free stream pressure. This pressure difference provides the force needed
> >to push that air stream "around the corner" from the windscreen to the
> >canopy top. The Newton's First Law and Bernoulli's Law explanation are
> >simply different views of the same phenomenon.
>
>This is a bit brutal for a Sunday morning! :-)
>
>I thought that Bernoulli effect of lift has been seen to be far less
>than originally postulated, and that it's really Newton's third law
>of physics (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction)
>that allows us to fly. Essentially, we are pushing a mass of air down
>that exactly equals the amount of lift that the airplane generates.
>Also, since there are so many lifting surface shapes and angles of
>attack that it seems surprising that the canopy shape happens to be
>one that generates lift. These are all things that made me guess,
>and it's only a guess, that the forces on the canopy would be downward.
>
>Looks like I'll have to do some tufting when I get flying to get a
>better answer, or perhaps more confused!
>
>Best regards,
>Mickey
When you say that that "I thought that Bernoulli effect of lift has been
seen to be far less
than originally postulated", you may be referring to the popular
misapplication where people try to say that the path around the top of the
wing is longer than over the bottom, and that the air must go faster as a
result. This is wrong. But, the air does accelerate as it goes over the
top, and Bernoulli correctly predicts that the pressure will be lower due
to the higher speed. So Bernoulli's Law isn't wrong, it is just the
over-simplification that people use.
If you look at the pressure distribution around the wing, the difference in
pressure explains the amount of lift. Or, you can measure the amount the
air is deflected downwards, and that also explains the lift. They are
simply different views of the same phenomenon. Just because one view can
explain that is happening doesn't mean that the other one is invalid. Pick
what ever explanation fits the way your brain is wired. The aircraft won't
know the difference. :)
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/bernnew.html
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0005.shtml
Kevin Horton
RV-8 (Finishing Kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
>http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/bernnew.html
>http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0005.shtml
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for the links and the clarifications - very interesting reading!
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
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| From: | RVer273sb(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: E- Mag test flights |
That would be me most likely.
I am now running total electronic ignition on my
0-320 powered RV-4. I have the P-mag on the left
and the E-mag on the right. Thus far I have seen a
slight increase in cht and egt from what I am used to.
My engine has always run on the cold side in the RV-4
so this is not a problem. Temps are prety much normal
in cruise.. I have to run the mixture a bit richer than I am
used to but I can see a drop in fuel consumption. I have
6 hrs on the dual system so accurate numbers are yet
to be calculated.
I have the optional MAP feature on mine. What mag drop
there is very smooth and almost non existent.
Stewart RV-4 Colorado
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Bibb" <rebibb(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
> >...
> >He convinced me it was a very bad idea to play test pilot of this sort in
a
> >homebuilt if I valued myself, my family and MOST OF ALL... my precious,
one
> >of a kind aircraft, unless I could do it the way the pros did.
> >...
>
> Sounds like good advice. Did he tell you how the pros do it?
>
>
With a spin 'shute for starters. Look on Van's website about the flight
testing of the RV-10 and notice the spin 'shute....
When I first flew my -4 I went up and did a spin both left and right for
maybe 1/2-1 turn. It was rather benign but I would not do it again without
taking a spin training course in something like a Pitts. Not because the -4
spins badly but because I now know that spins in small airplanes that wind
up fast can kill you as it is easy to get disoriented. I lost a friend who
spun in practicing for an aerobatic contest. He had thousands of hours
flying all sorts of acro planes and I learned from his demise that I sure
didn't know enough about this.
I agree with the post on practicing slow flight - best thing you can do to
gain profiency in any airplane IMHO.
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| From: | "Paul Besing" <azpilot(at)extremezone.com> |
| Subject: | Inadvertent Spin |
I too have spun an RV-6A. It was unintentional. I was conducting some test
flying for friend's plane, and was doing a departure stall. It broke very
sharply, and violently. It took about 2000 feet and 3 turns before I
realized what I was in. I had no formal spin training before then. I was
shown one or two, but that was it.
Now that I am a CFI, I have had the formal spin training. And I can tell
you this, I will never spin an RV again. It was just too tight and fast.
But most of all, the biggest problem I saw was my lack of recognition. Had
I not been doing my testing at 5000' agl, I don't think I would be here to
talk about it. Spin training should be done at the private pilot level,
and on BFR's in my opinion, but we know the lawyers would never have it that
way!
Paul Besing
RV-6A Sold
RV-10 Soon
http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
Kitlog Pro Builder's Log Software
http://www.kitlog.com
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" <sisson(at)consolidated.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AOA - when going straight up |
HAL KEMPTHORNE wrote:
>
>Phil S. says there wouldn't be relative wind if your RV was going straight up.
I can see that it might not amount to much, but there would be some wouldn't
there? I'm not nit picking but just interested in learning.
>
>If one was going straight up in an F16 and fast enough, there would also be lift
I should think. I wonder what the stick forces would be then?
>
>hal
>
>
>
Hal,
Actually, I didn't say there would be no relative wind when going
straight up. I said there would be no relative wind if there was zero
air speed, and therefor no angle of Attack., If an airplane is not
moving through the air, there is no relative wind.. actuqlly there is a
lot of relative wind when you pull to vertical and it will simply
diminish as you progress up the vertical line. The controls get softer
and softer until you stop, At that point you still have some elevator
and rudder authority from the prop blast but not as much, then very
soon, you will be coming backwards tail first. Don't do this in an RV.
I'm not sure what that .016 skin would do on some of the control surfaces.
I also said an airplane Can stall when going straight up such as what
happens when an vertical snap roll is performed on an "up" line..
I just didnt make my self clear..Read it again. My comments are in
the ( brackets ) ,,,
Phil
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Emrath" <emrath(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Christen 801 Inverted Oil Systems |
Sorry folks for the general posting, if uninterested, delete now.
I have been trying to contact Stein to ask some questions about the
momentary "drop" in oil pressure experienced with the Christian set up. My
efforts to contract Stein directly have been returned as undeliverable.
I'm not familiar with these systems, can anyone advise me about this
momentary "drop" in pressure? When does this occur and for how long? Does
one really need to use the vac. Pump pad attachment or will the stock
Christian installation with a hose to the breather not work satisfactory?
Thanks for the education.
Marty in Brentwood TN
Subject: RE: Re: RV-Listt: Christen 801 Inverted Oil Systems
From: Stein Bruch (stein(at)steinair.com)
Date: Wed Nov 10 - 8:29 AM
No Different whe it comes to the vac.pump pad fitting. Many people can & do
use the same vac.pump pad fitting for the Christen systems. This keeps the
momentary "drop" in pressure from happening.
That being said, the Christen system is still significatly more expensive
than the "clone" which from what I've seen is basically the same thing, just
a copy.
Just an FYI..
Cheers,
Stein Bruch
Rv6's, Minneapolis (one with Inverted fuel/oil).
---
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gordon or Marge Comfort" <gcomfo(at)tc3net.com> |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve zicree
Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
Mark,
I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
deal you think it is. Keep in mind that most good aerobatics courses
start with spins because botched manuevers can easily turn into spins.
In fact, the first time my highly skilled instructor demonstrated an
immelman he accidentally spun us. It is kind of spooky the first time,
but confidence building as well. At any rate, if you plan on doing loops
and such, get some spin training in something first. Not to harp on it,
but a split-s can be a dangerous trick if you get things wrong. The
potential for overspeed is great. Again, they're no big thing with the
proper training.
Steve Zicree
planes are fun
Steve and others:
I must chime in here. I agree with what you have said up to the last
sentence and even that one may be ok for TC'd aircraft. Maybe. Not all
aircraft are created equal and spin behavior may vary considerably.
Recovery requirements may vary also. One would need to know why a
particular aircraft is placarded against spins to be sure whether the
placard is there because the mfr. chose not to test for spin recovery or
because under some circumstances recovery is impossible. With untested
aircraft one cannot be sure until and testing is done. If you have seen
the film NASA made of their attempts to make a Grumman Tiger spin proof
you would gain new respect for the process. They popped the antispin
parachutes many times. The late Al Meyers lost the prototype Meyers 145
to an unrecoverable spin and in that case the argument that releasing
the controls would effect recovery failed. His parachute landing
resulted in a broken foot. Dick Johnson found himself in an
unrecoverable spin in a Standard Austria SH sailplane and he had tested
more aircraft than I have flown. A bent wing Corsair as demonstrated at
Cleveland has quite weird behavior and a McDonnell Banshee even wierder.
But they will recover.
In our aircraft a prestall buffet is not universally found in spin
entry. An anecdote: I owned a Standard Austria SH-1 sailplane
(different airfoil from the SH). It had a 15 meter span and the wings
were fairly heavy, about 175 pounds each. The fuselage was a bit
shorter than other contemporary gliders and the the V-tail was all
flying, that is, it had no fixed stabilizer surfaces. The ailerons were
comparatively small and there was very little differential and so
adverse yaw was prominent. Consequently steep thermalling turns resulted
in crossed controls. One day when working a difficult thermal it rolled
over and I, thinking no big deal, had completed 3/4 of a turn before
acknowledging to myself what was happening. I reverted to the spin
recovery technique learned in Aeronca Champs, put in opposite rudder to
no effect, took it out and put it in again still to no effect, took it
out and put it in again with forward stick. Rotation quickly reversed,
was easily controlled and recovery was completed. Dick Johnson's
experience was going through my mind and due to my altitude I was about
to exit the aircraft had I not recovered when I did. There was no
prestall buffet. A couple of weeks later I took a Citabria to altitude
and experimented a bit. I found that a spin is easily entered with no
prestall buffet. That was news to me. Later I had a PIK-20B sailplane
and did spin entries and up to 1 turn right and left. That one went
right over on its back in the first part of the spin.
During the test phase in my RV-4 I explored the flight envelope as best
I could. Starting with simple power off stalls I progressed to stalls
with power, and out of shallow to medium turns, and from there to stalls
out of 2g turns (60 degrees) both coordinated and with top rudder and
with bottom rudder (1 ball out) and found recovery to be uncomplicated.
Then came spin entries where rotation was not allowed beyond 1/4 turn
and thence to 1 turn spins. All done right and left with c.g. fairly
forward. I chose not to let a spin progress beyond 1 turn and did not
test to aft c.g limits. For that I would want anti-spin parachutes and
some additional courage. One RV-4 may have been lost due to an aft c.g.
spin. I fly accordingly. None of the above qualifies me to speak to the
characteristics of any of the other RVs out there. I offer these
comments as cautionary and not personal and hope they may be of benefit
to some.
Gordon Comfort
N363GC
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Danielson" <Jdaniel343(at)bresnan.net> |
Rick,
It is no big deal to spin a plane if you have had spin training.
I've had unusual attitude and aerobatic training in a Decathalon.
I can spin a plane and recover to a heading chosen by the instructor.
What these others on the list are saying is that it is not wise to spin
an RV-6/6A. Van himself doesn't like the spin characteristics of the
RV-6/6A.
This should tell us something. Its not that the RV-6 is incapable of be
spun and recovered, it's just that it will be a lot different in the
rate of spin than most pilots are used to.
Heed the advise of Van and the other pilots that are on the list.
If you don't wish to do this, then at least climb to a safe altitude
above the ground, say 8000 feet. Sounds high doesn't it. Just remember
you can't use altitude you don't have.
John Danielson
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Lundin
Subject: RE: RV-List: planes are fun
I did a spin in a C-150 by accident when I was
learning to do power on stalls. It's a good thing my
instructor knew what to do. He explained the recovery
and we never did another spin.
Years later while getting tail drager time in a Champ
the instructor asked if I'd had spin training, and
would I like to. No and yes respectively. So we did
lots of spins over the next couple days along with
many T&Gs. Spins are no big deal once you've done a
few. I'm glad I took time with a qualified instructor
to learn them.
Rick
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve zicree" <szicree(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
Excellent, thoughtful observations Gordon. Actually my last sentence refered
to the split-s not being any big deal. I agree whole-heartedly with you
about spin characteristics varying widely from type to type and would never
suggest that anyone but a trained test pilot with some anti-spin device
venture into this unknown area. I was simply suggesting that the 6's have
been spun by many and that with the proper training it can be done safely.
After all I've read on here, I went back and read all I could find from Van,
and others at Van's, and do not find where they say that spins should never
be attempted. I do read where they say the rate of spin is about 180
degrees/second (pretty fast) and that recovery at this rate is quite delayed
(a turn and a half, I think), but I also read that they say it can be done.
At any rate, I was only trying to suggest that aerobatics without spin
confidence is ill-advised. Actually, can anybody name a good aerobatics
plane that isn't approved for spins? Thanks again for your input and let me
know when you need a back seater for a sailplane ride. I've been up once and
it was unbelievable.
Cheers,
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon or Marge Comfort" <gcomfo(at)tc3net.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: planes are fun
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve zicree
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
>
>
> Mark,
> I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
> deal you think it is. Keep in mind that most good aerobatics courses
> start with spins because botched manuevers can easily turn into spins.
> In fact, the first time my highly skilled instructor demonstrated an
> immelman he accidentally spun us. It is kind of spooky the first time,
> but confidence building as well. At any rate, if you plan on doing loops
> and such, get some spin training in something first. Not to harp on it,
> but a split-s can be a dangerous trick if you get things wrong. The
> potential for overspeed is great. Again, they're no big thing with the
> proper training.
>
> Steve Zicree
> planes are fun
>
> Steve and others:
>
> I must chime in here. I agree with what you have said up to the last
> sentence and even that one may be ok for TC'd aircraft. Maybe. Not all
> aircraft are created equal and spin behavior may vary considerably.
> Recovery requirements may vary also. One would need to know why a
> particular aircraft is placarded against spins to be sure whether the
> placard is there because the mfr. chose not to test for spin recovery or
> because under some circumstances recovery is impossible. With untested
> aircraft one cannot be sure until and testing is done. If you have seen
> the film NASA made of their attempts to make a Grumman Tiger spin proof
> you would gain new respect for the process. They popped the antispin
> parachutes many times. The late Al Meyers lost the prototype Meyers 145
> to an unrecoverable spin and in that case the argument that releasing
> the controls would effect recovery failed. His parachute landing
> resulted in a broken foot. Dick Johnson found himself in an
> unrecoverable spin in a Standard Austria SH sailplane and he had tested
> more aircraft than I have flown. A bent wing Corsair as demonstrated at
> Cleveland has quite weird behavior and a McDonnell Banshee even wierder.
> But they will recover.
>
> In our aircraft a prestall buffet is not universally found in spin
> entry. An anecdote: I owned a Standard Austria SH-1 sailplane
> (different airfoil from the SH). It had a 15 meter span and the wings
> were fairly heavy, about 175 pounds each. The fuselage was a bit
> shorter than other contemporary gliders and the the V-tail was all
> flying, that is, it had no fixed stabilizer surfaces. The ailerons were
> comparatively small and there was very little differential and so
> adverse yaw was prominent. Consequently steep thermalling turns resulted
> in crossed controls. One day when working a difficult thermal it rolled
> over and I, thinking no big deal, had completed 3/4 of a turn before
> acknowledging to myself what was happening. I reverted to the spin
> recovery technique learned in Aeronca Champs, put in opposite rudder to
> no effect, took it out and put it in again still to no effect, took it
> out and put it in again with forward stick. Rotation quickly reversed,
> was easily controlled and recovery was completed. Dick Johnson's
> experience was going through my mind and due to my altitude I was about
> to exit the aircraft had I not recovered when I did. There was no
> prestall buffet. A couple of weeks later I took a Citabria to altitude
> and experimented a bit. I found that a spin is easily entered with no
> prestall buffet. That was news to me. Later I had a PIK-20B sailplane
> and did spin entries and up to 1 turn right and left. That one went
> right over on its back in the first part of the spin.
>
> During the test phase in my RV-4 I explored the flight envelope as best
> I could. Starting with simple power off stalls I progressed to stalls
> with power, and out of shallow to medium turns, and from there to stalls
> out of 2g turns (60 degrees) both coordinated and with top rudder and
> with bottom rudder (1 ball out) and found recovery to be uncomplicated.
> Then came spin entries where rotation was not allowed beyond 1/4 turn
> and thence to 1 turn spins. All done right and left with c.g. fairly
> forward. I chose not to let a spin progress beyond 1 turn and did not
> test to aft c.g limits. For that I would want anti-spin parachutes and
> some additional courage. One RV-4 may have been lost due to an aft c.g.
> spin. I fly accordingly. None of the above qualifies me to speak to the
> characteristics of any of the other RVs out there. I offer these
> comments as cautionary and not personal and hope they may be of benefit
> to some.
>
> Gordon Comfort
> N363GC
>
>
> _-====================================================================
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> _-> _-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the
> _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this
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>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Canopy Latch tube RV7 Slider |
Dear Canopy Gurus,
This is an RV7 Slider. Concerning he little part of the tube on the fore/aft
center bow of the canopy frame that sticks up through the 5/8 hole in the
canopy plexiglass.
Despite grinding the weld flat and buffing everything up to a smooth no paint
condition, a 5/8 hole through the plexi is still a VERY tight fit. Plexi
won't quite go all the way down and lay flat around the tube
A test 11/16 hole in some scrap aluminum lets the aluminum piece lay down
nice and flat around the tube and on the center line of the fore and aft bow.
Question 1: Should I keep going at the tube on the weldment until everything
sits flat around the tube, or just be done with it and drill the plexi to
11/16?
Question 2: The plans say you can elongate the hole fore and aft to allow
for minor adjustments. How does one elongate the hole? (As you can tell
plexiglass terrifies me.)
Hoping for a quick answer as the shop is up to 82 degrees for the $1,000 cut
between the windshield and the canopy.
John (pray for a crack free, clean cut) McDonnell
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Howard Walrath" <der_Jagdflieger(at)prodigy.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues |
Yesterday's posts provided some new insight into this subject
including the contributions by Scott and Sam below, including
Van's commentary about RV-6 stall/spin characteristics. With
some four years now in my RV-6A, including many stalls and spins,
I'd make these observations.
The short, slick wing of the -6 gives us the performance we enjoy
but it can also provide very exciting results, especially from high
angle-of-attack stalls that can suddenly provide you a view
through the windshield rarely seen by most pilots. 40+ years ago,
when I took my training, my instructor taught stall avoidance along
with stall/spin recovery.
Because a couple dozen of our EAA Chapter 168 members already
had RV's flying, I decided that before I explored these un-natural
attitudes in my RV, I would get some professional training. 2 years
ago I flew out to California to spend a couple days with the "Dean" of
Emergency Maneuver Training, Mr. Rich Stowell. Rich was the
FAA's first Master CFI-Aerobatic and is the author of numerous books
and papers on the subject.
Rich and I spent 4 hours spinning my RV-6A and, when we broke for lunch,
he remarked that I had now logged more spins than were required by the
FAA to be a professional instructor and commercial pilot. The rest of that
day and all of the next day were all in a Super Decathelon getting some
aerobatic training. While you may not be interested in aerobatics, I'd
strongly recommend spending a few hours with an instructor knowledgeable
in recovery from unusual attitudes training -- to become constantly aware of
all the ways your bird might bite you -- leaving or arriving at an airport.
Links to more information on this are below, including a link to how you
can get a copy of Rich's text on Emergency Mauever Training from a List
Supporter, Builder's Bookstore.
Howard Walrath RV-6A N55HW
http://www.richstowell.com/index.htm
http://www.richstowell.com/aopa.htm
http://www.buildersbooks.com/emergency_manuever_training.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott VanArtsdalen" <svanarts(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
>
> I can sure believe this. When I did my transition training with Mike
> Seager in the RV-6 the few stalls we did were pretty disconcerting for
> this Airknocker pilot. I was accustomed to holding my Champ in a stall
> and just walking it down with rudders. The first stall I did in the 6
> felt like the world was just dropping out from under me. Then I lowered
> the nose and tried to bring it back up again like I would in the Champ
> to start flying again but there was an even more abrupt stall right
> after the first. Mike just sat there with his hands folded neatly in
> his lap and calmly said, "OK, now that's a secondary stall, let's try to
> avoid a third."
>
> Anyway this had me really rattled for doing the first stalls in my
> RV-4. But the 4 stalls very differently from the 6. Not the dramatic
> drop you get in the 6. Well... I considered it a pretty dramatic drop
> anyway.
>
> I guess the point is, don't generalize these airplanes. Each model has
> it's own peculiar handling charactaristics. Be familiar with them. I
> wouldn't spin a 6 just to be familiar with it's spin charactaristics.
> I'd research it and figure out how to avoid them. I've researched
> enough to know that spins are safely doable in an RV-4. Not safe with a
> passenger in the back. Not safe with me doing them because I've NEVER
> spun an airplane. Probably never will.
>
> Remember, we build 'em, we test 'em, we fly 'em. Do all three as safely
> as you can within your personal capabilities, and the capabilities of
> your airplane.
>
> Sam Buchanan wrote:
>
>>
>>steve zicree wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Mark,
>>>I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
>>>deal you think it is.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
>>spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
>>to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
>>credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
>>survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
>>another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
>>
>>Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
>>are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
>>not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
>>plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
>>attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
>>spins would expect.
>>
>>I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
>>RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
>>planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
>>probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
>>RV canopies are received as well. :-)
>>
>>Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do!)
>>
SNIP******************************
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ross S" <rv7maker(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Canopy Latch tube RV7 Slider |
John,
Go for the 11/16 or larger if it works better. Make it bigger for and aft
with corse sandpaper and then progressively go finer and finer until it is
very smooth. The approximately 1" wide aluminum strip that runs for and aft
over the center tube will cover your hole.
Good Luck,
Ross Schlotthauer
RV-7 Finishing
>From: JTAnon(at)aol.com
>Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Canopy Latch tube RV7 Slider
>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:54:28 EST
>
>
>Dear Canopy Gurus,
>
>This is an RV7 Slider. Concerning he little part of the tube on the
>fore/aft
>center bow of the canopy frame that sticks up through the 5/8 hole in the
>canopy plexiglass.
>
>Despite grinding the weld flat and buffing everything up to a smooth no
>paint
>condition, a 5/8 hole through the plexi is still a VERY tight fit. Plexi
>won't quite go all the way down and lay flat around the tube
>
>A test 11/16 hole in some scrap aluminum lets the aluminum piece lay down
>nice and flat around the tube and on the center line of the fore and aft
>bow.
>
>Question 1: Should I keep going at the tube on the weldment until
>everything
>sits flat around the tube, or just be done with it and drill the plexi to
>11/16?
>
>Question 2: The plans say you can elongate the hole fore and aft to allow
>for minor adjustments. How does one elongate the hole? (As you can tell
>plexiglass terrifies me.)
>
>Hoping for a quick answer as the shop is up to 82 degrees for the $1,000
>cut
>between the windshield and the canopy.
>
>John (pray for a crack free, clean cut) McDonnell
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues |
>snippage<
> > I guess the point is, don't generalize these airplanes. Each model has
> > it's own peculiar handling charactaristics. Be familiar with them. I
> > wouldn't spin a 6 just to be familiar with it's spin charactaristics.
> > I'd research it and figure out how to avoid them. I've researched
> > enough to know that spins are safely doable in an RV-4. Not safe with a
> > passenger in the back. Not safe with me doing them because I've NEVER
> > spun an airplane. Probably never will.
Looks like the -8 is the best spinning RV out there. By "best", I mean it's
the one that let's you know that it's gonna stop flying well before it does.
The tail shake was discussed ad nauseum years ago. My airplane bucks and
shudders like the dickens before it quits. Yes, it does wind up and I
really don't think it's properly stalled through the manuever. It's too
nose-low, probably because it's nose heavy while solo to begin with. A spin
can be recovered. A nose low spiral can tear your wings off. So, after I
verified that the airplane does recover using conventional means, I haven't
done any since. The plane really seems to protest the maneuver...lots of
skin banging going on back in the tailcone. Just never got comfy with it.
Made it through two turns in both directions. Recovered with opposite
rudder and neutral stick. Had five hours of acro/spin training in CAP10B
prior to.
Still advocate spin training for everybody. In the right airplane, they're
a hoot.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 '51
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [ Keith T Uhls ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
| From: | Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Keith T Uhls
Lists: RV-List,RV6-List,RV7-List,RV9-List
Subject: RV-7 with GRT EFIS and Dynon
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/keithuhls@juno.com.11.14.2004/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures(at)matronics.com
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie <charleyb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Locking the Slider Canopy |
My -6A slider has a relatively positive over-center latch. However, I
have considered installing a safety catch or some device to prevent the
canopy from opening if the latch were inadvertently opened. To you old
head -6 Slider pilots, have you ever had your slider canopy
inadvertently unlatch? Or had a passenger inadvertently unlatch it. Has
anybody gone to the trouble to install a safety catch or device to
prevent such an occurrence?
Charlie Brame
RB-6A N11CB
San Antonio
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | OT - Interesting approach to Baghdad |
Here's a maneuver that I didn't learn during my flight
training:
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album15&id=100_3175
This is a seat pocket card from an airline that flies into Baghdad. Here
is the text taken from the image:
For those of you who have not
traveled with us before, you
need to be aware that, for your
security and safety, and not for
your comfort, we do a spiral
descent into Baghdad.
This is carried out to avoid any
risk from ant-aircraft missiles or
small arms fire, and is 100%
effective in achieving this objec-
tive.
We start the spiral from 15000
feet overhead the airfield and
the aircraft is banked at an
average angle of bank of 45
degrees. The rate of descent
will be about 4000 feet per
minute and there may be some
discomfort to the ears as the
cabin pressurization controller
has difficulty in keeping up with
the rate of descent.
For first time travelers to
Baghdad, the procedure can
seem quite alarming, but it is a
totally safe and an entirely
normal procedure.
Enjoy your flight with Air Serv.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pat Hatch" <pat_hatch(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Canopy Latch tube RV7 Slider |
John,
Here's what I did: first try chamfering the bottom of the 5/8" hole to nest
with the weld bead on the canopy frame. (You don't want the bead to ride on
the edge of the hole for sure.) If necessary, go for the next size hole
with the unibit (or elongate the hole with a file) but it probably will be
just fine once you chamfer. Go with a round file and sandpaper to smooth
and polish out the chamfer. The trim piece that goes on top of the canopy
will dress out the hole for you so don't be too concerned if the hole is not
exactly centered now. The slight oversize, if necessary, is not a problem.
Also, I wouldn't grind the bead off. Welders will tell you not to do this.
I think a crack could develop. I would be interested in hearing what others
have to say about this practice.
Pat Hatch
RV-4
RV-6
RV-7
Vero Beach, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: <JTAnon(at)aol.com>
Subject: RV-List: Canopy Latch tube RV7 Slider
>
> Dear Canopy Gurus,
>
> This is an RV7 Slider. Concerning he little part of the tube on the
> fore/aft
> center bow of the canopy frame that sticks up through the 5/8 hole in the
> canopy plexiglass.
>
> Despite grinding the weld flat and buffing everything up to a smooth no
> paint
> condition, a 5/8 hole through the plexi is still a VERY tight fit. Plexi
> won't quite go all the way down and lay flat around the tube
>
> A test 11/16 hole in some scrap aluminum lets the aluminum piece lay down
> nice and flat around the tube and on the center line of the fore and aft
> bow.
>
> Question 1: Should I keep going at the tube on the weldment until
> everything
> sits flat around the tube, or just be done with it and drill the plexi to
> 11/16?
>
> Question 2: The plans say you can elongate the hole fore and aft to allow
> for minor adjustments. How does one elongate the hole? (As you can tell
> plexiglass terrifies me.)
>
> Hoping for a quick answer as the shop is up to 82 degrees for the $1,000
> cut
> between the windshield and the canopy.
>
> John (pray for a crack free, clean cut) McDonnell
>
>
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| From: | "steve zicree" <szicree(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Spins and canopies |
For all to read, here is the original text of my highly controversial post. If
I misinterpreted Mark's attitude toward spins I apologize directly to him, but
for the life of me I can't see what I said that was so controversial.
Mark,
I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
deal you think it is. Keep in mind that most good aerobatics courses start
with spins because botched manuevers can easily turn into spins. In fact,
the first time my highly skilled instructor demonstrated an immelman he
accidentally spun us. It is kind of spooky the first time, but confidence
building as well. At any rate, if you plan on doing loops and such, get some
spin training in something first. Not to harp on it, but a split-s can be a
dangerous trick if you get things wrong. The potential for overspeed is
great. Again, they're no big thing with the proper training.
Steve Zicree
I once stated to the list that I was uncomfortable toting 18 gallons of open gasoline
around my enclosed garage for the purpose of tank testing, and was told
by the experienced builders/flyers that therefore I probably wasn't smart enough
to "share the sky" with the rest of you. Share the sky? Wow! One poster suggested
that I have "lurked" on the list for years because I'm not worthy of adding
to it. The truth is I avoided contributing because most of what I saw were
ego driven arguments. Well, I guess I got sucked in after all.
Regarding the canopy jettison issue, I ASKED if the downforce on a tip-up was so
great as to prevent anything from lifting it. Again I was told to sit down and
shut up. Not being an expert on such things, I emailed a photo of the 6 to
a colleague of mine who is a fluid dynamicist. He tells me that, in HIS OPINION
the forces on the canopy in forward flight are exerted upward and backward relative
to the airplane. Thus the real issue is the hinge and the resulting torque
created by the drag force.
I am well aware that there are pilots here who are much more experienced than I,
but I also know that flight hours alone do not necessarily make someone an expert
on every issue surrounding design, construction, and flight. A good example
would be the Wright's eventual refutation of Lilienthal's airfoil L/D data.
As I mentioned before, I am an applied mathematician. This work requires an
open, questioning mindset, with tacit acceptance of dogma getting you nowhere.
I am relatively new to the world of aviation, but from what I've seen here I
would have to assume that the reverse is true in the world of homebuilders, and
that daring to question the old guard simply gets one shouted down. I am perhaps
naive or idealistic, but this discovery is very disappointing to me.
Steve Zicree
disappointed quite Very dissapointing from
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| From: | Dave Durakovich <ddurakovich(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Canopy latch |
I took some "Alumiweld" (Wicks has it), filled the end of the tube, then ground
it down to the shape I wanted. Took about 10 minutes! Make sure you "clean" the
inside bore with a drill bit first, SS brush won't reach in far enough. Ground
down with no evidence of cracking, so I think I got decent penetration. No
experience with use yet....
Dave
>Listers,
>
> I asked a while back about the hand formed clevis at the handle end of the
canopy
> latch rods on the 4. Well, after making them I just couldn't accept their
looks
> and the function was less than perfect too. What I came up with was to replace
> the .058 wall tubing with .083, which allowed me to tap them to 1/4-28.
> I then attached some real nice little balljoints at the ends with studs
that slip
> right into the handle. I know it's a very small detail, but the ball joints
> pivot nicely and it looks much better than smashing the ends flat. I now
want
> to finish the job by putting some sort of bullet shaped tip on the ends
that
> penetrate the bulkheads to replace the half-tapered tips called out in the
plans.
> I'm picturing something like the point on a target arrow, hopefully with
> a 1/4-28 thread on it. It could also be JB Welded in if it has some sort
of stud
> on it. I'm hoping that someone will have a good idea of what I can use.
Thanks
> for the assist.
>
> Steve Zicree
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Spins and canopies |
>... Not being an expert on such things, I emailed a photo of the 6
>to a colleague of mine who is a fluid dynamicist. He tells me that,
>in HIS OPINION the forces on the canopy in forward flight are exerted
>upward and backward relative to the airplane. Thus the real issue is
>the hinge and the resulting torque created by the drag force.
I'd be interested in hearing his opinion of the 8 - where would
he guess are the main forces?
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Pardue" <n5lp(at)warpdriveonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spins and AOA |
>
>
> Don't know about other planes, but RVs will stall nicely going straight
> up,
> done it many times when pulling too much in a slow loop. They'll do it
> going
> straight down as well.
>
This may be a response to something I said about airplanes not stalling
going straight up. As soon as I hit send I realized I didn't specify enough
conditions. What is straight up, fuselage perpendicular or wing chord
perpendicular or what? I also didn't specify on a straight up line, not
going past straight up while pulling G's. I also said the airplane will
fall, which is not necessarily true if it has enough thrust, at least not
for quite a while. I was just thinking of the common sense case of pulling
one of our RV's to an approximate vertical line and holding it there. It
will lose speed until it falls at an airspeed around zero, but will not
stall as long as the line is held close to vertical without pulling G's.
I have spun and snap rolled my RV quite a few times in the test phase, as I
was planning to do aerobatics in it. I read the cautions about spins in
RV-6's which, as I recall, mentioned that after about 3 revolutions the spin
will get very fast and may take positive control inputs to recover. I did
not go past three turns and did not try any hands free recoveries. Within
those limits I did not find the spin particularly startling but I was ready
for it to be fast.
Some may not think this was prudent. Others may not think it prudent to fly
intentional aerobatics in airplanes they are unwilling to spin in. I have
not ever unintentionally spun the airplane but did get upside down at near
zero airspeed once, after a botched hammerhead. I probably wasn't far from
getting into an inverted spin right then. If you don't think you could ever
spin from a messed up manuever you had better be pretty good. I'm not near
that good.
Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM
RV-6 N441LP Flying
http://n5lp.net
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| From: | "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Oil where I didn't expect it |
I've had a beautiful Bart LaLonde IO360-B2B engine sitting in a crate
for much longer than I care to admit. Now it is finally in danger of
getting hung - in another month or so. It's dangling from an engine
hoist. I thought I'd bolt the AFP air controller on today (temporarily)
so I could roll the engine into a close approximation of its final
resting place and get an idea of where the control cables should
penetrate the firewall, where the fuel hoses go, etc.. Much to my
surprise when I removed the plate Bart had bolted on to the intake, and
pulled out the plastic plug, about a pint of oil splooshed out onto the
floor.
Since he had a big plug in there, I'm assuming the oil was put there
intentionally, but why is there oil in my air intake? Further more, how
do I clean it out before I try bolting the air controller on? I don't
want oil dribbling into my air controller.
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A
firewall.
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| From: | "steve zicree" <szicree(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Spins and canopies |
I'll run it by him Monday if you promise not to call him names : )
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies
>
>
> >... Not being an expert on such things, I emailed a photo of the 6
> >to a colleague of mine who is a fluid dynamicist. He tells me that,
> >in HIS OPINION the forces on the canopy in forward flight are exerted
> >upward and backward relative to the airplane. Thus the real issue is
> >the hinge and the resulting torque created by the drag force.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing his opinion of the 8 - where would
> he guess are the main forces?
>
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
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>
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Canopy latch |
On HRII N561FS we tapped the far ends of the canopy rods (not sure but I
think 1/4X20) screwed in a bolt and ground down the end to a rounded point.
Used 3/4" long grade 8 bolts, w/ little or no shank, just because we had two
of them. Used JBWeld lightly on the threads and when it was screwed in it
created a "donut" at the end of the rod (1/8" or so). Kept the donut and
used it as part of the ground down area. This made the point a little longer
than just the thickness of the bolt head. The idea was the "harden" the tip
and protect from wear on the exposed rod aluminum end. Looks good & works
great. KABONG 8*)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Durakovich" <ddurakovich(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: RV-List: Re: Canopy latch
>
> I took some "Alumiweld" (Wicks has it), filled the end of the tube, then
> ground it down to the shape I wanted. Took about 10 minutes! Make sure you
> "clean" the inside bore with a drill bit first, SS brush won't reach in
> far enough. Ground down with no evidence of cracking, so I think I got
> decent penetration. No experience with use yet....
>> I asked a while back about the hand formed clevis at the handle end
>> of the canopy
>> latch rods on the 4. Well, after making them I just couldn't accept
>> their looks
>> and the function was less than perfect too. What I came up with was
>> to replace
>> the .058 wall tubing with .083, which allowed me to tap them to
>> 1/4-28.
>> I then attached some real nice little balljoints at the ends with
>> studs that slip
>> right into the handle. I know it's a very small detail, but the ball
>> joints
>> pivot nicely and it looks much better than smashing the ends flat. I
>> now want
>> to finish the job by putting some sort of bullet shaped tip on the
>> ends that
>> penetrate the bulkheads to replace the half-tapered tips called out
>> in the plans.
>> I'm picturing something like the point on a target arrow, hopefully
>> with
>> a 1/4-28 thread on it. It could also be JB Welded in if it has some
>> sort of stud
>> on it. I'm hoping that someone will have a good idea of what I can
>> use. Thanks
>> for the assist.
>>
>> Steve Zicree
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| From: | EMAproducts(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Stall & Spin Training |
posted by: linn walters
OK, now that you (the collective you) are enjoying spins and they're 'no big
deal', put some aileron into the spin once it fully develops
....... and then move the stick forward ....... and then try and recover
on a heading.
Am I the only one that is getting old? On my CFI checkride I had to recover
from a spin on a heading! (over 24,000 flying hours ago)
Elbie
www.riteangle.com
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| From: | "Randy Lervold" <randy(at)romeolima.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues |
> > > I guess the point is, don't generalize these airplanes. Each model
has
> > > it's own peculiar handling charactaristics. Be familiar with them. I
> > > wouldn't spin a 6 just to be familiar with it's spin charactaristics.
> > > I'd research it and figure out how to avoid them. I've researched
> > > enough to know that spins are safely doable in an RV-4. Not safe with
a
> > > passenger in the back. Not safe with me doing them because I've NEVER
> > > spun an airplane. Probably never will.
>
> Looks like the -8 is the best spinning RV out there. By "best", I mean
it's
> the one that let's you know that it's gonna stop flying well before it
does.
> The tail shake was discussed ad nauseum years ago. My airplane bucks
and
> shudders like the dickens before it quits. Yes, it does wind up and I
> really don't think it's properly stalled through the manuever. It's too
> nose-low, probably because it's nose heavy while solo to begin with. A
spin
> can be recovered. A nose low spiral can tear your wings off. So, after I
> verified that the airplane does recover using conventional means, I
haven't
> done any since. The plane really seems to protest the maneuver...lots of
> skin banging going on back in the tailcone. Just never got comfy with it.
> Made it through two turns in both directions. Recovered with opposite
> rudder and neutral stick. Had five hours of acro/spin training in CAP10B
> prior to.
>
> Still advocate spin training for everybody. In the right airplane,
they're
> a hoot.
>
> Brian Denk
> RV8 N94BD
> RV10 '51
I would echo Brian's comments on the RV-8 exactly -- matches my experience
and resulting opinion precisely.
Randy Lervold
RV-3 N223RL
RV-8 N558RL
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Spins and canopies |
If you find yourself flying with the canopy unlatched, try entering a spin,
then between about 1 and 1.5 turns, re-latch the canopy. Works every time:)
Alex Peterson
RV6-A 552 hours
Maple Grove, MN
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
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| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)bowenaero.com> |
| Subject: | RV Stall/Spin Issues |
Any known difference with or without wheel/leg fairings? I thought that was
a player with the whole tail shake thing....
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Randy Lervold [mailto:randy(at)romeolima.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 4:29 PM
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: RV Stall/Spin Issues
>
>
> > > > I guess the point is, don't generalize these airplanes. Each
> > > > model
> has
> > > > it's own peculiar handling charactaristics. Be familiar with
> > > > them. I wouldn't spin a 6 just to be familiar with
> it's spin charactaristics.
> > > > I'd research it and figure out how to avoid them. I've
> researched
> > > > enough to know that spins are safely doable in an RV-4.
> Not safe
> > > > with
> a
> > > > passenger in the back. Not safe with me doing them
> because I've
> > > > NEVER spun an airplane. Probably never will.
> >
> > Looks like the -8 is the best spinning RV out there. By "best", I
> > mean
> it's
> > the one that let's you know that it's gonna stop flying
> well before it
> does.
> > The tail shake was discussed ad nauseum years ago. My airplane
> > bucks
> and
> > shudders like the dickens before it quits. Yes, it does
> wind up and I
> > really don't think it's properly stalled through the
> manuever. It's
> > too nose-low, probably because it's nose heavy while solo to begin
> > with. A
> spin
> > can be recovered. A nose low spiral can tear your wings off. So,
> > after I verified that the airplane does recover using conventional
> > means, I
> haven't
> > done any since. The plane really seems to protest the
> maneuver...lots
> > of skin banging going on back in the tailcone. Just never
> got comfy with it.
> > Made it through two turns in both directions. Recovered
> with opposite
> > rudder and neutral stick. Had five hours of acro/spin training in
> > CAP10B prior to.
> >
> > Still advocate spin training for everybody. In the right airplane,
> they're
> > a hoot.
> >
> > Brian Denk
> > RV8 N94BD
> > RV10 '51
>
>
> I would echo Brian's comments on the RV-8 exactly -- matches
> my experience and resulting opinion precisely.
>
> Randy Lervold
> RV-3 N223RL
> RV-8 N558RL
>
>
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| From: | "David Schaefer" <dschaefer1(at)kc.rr.com> |
I was at TruTrak's HQ on Friday afternoon.
They are getting ready to release a full sized solid-state attitude gyro
that works just like their current turn & bank but with pitch, heading
information and an inclinometer!! No more junk bearings to wear out! The
unit will work for about an hour on a 9 volt backup battery and will
eventually have an autopilot built in! Absolutely incredible engineering
from a great group of folks to work with.
Look for it by Sun 'n Fun.
Regards,
David Schaefer
RV-6A N142DS
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| From: | Gary Zilik <zilik(at)direcpc.com> |
rv8list(at)yahoogroups.com,
rv9-list(at)matronics.com.1.70.SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS.Similar.addresses.in.recipient.list
I just noticed on the Land Of Enchantment website that they are moving
the fly-in to a new location at 5T6. While I have been to the museum
there, which is nice, it looks to be in the middle of nowhere, far from
lodging and no rental cars. Tell me it aint so. My wife and I really
enjoy Las Cruces, I for one vote for not moving the fly-in. Someone in
the know need to fill us in on the reasons for the move.
Gary
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| From: | "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | RV Stall/Spin Issues |
>
>Any known difference with or without wheel/leg fairings? I thought that
>was
>a player with the whole tail shake thing....
>
>-
>Larry Bowen
My airplane does the same thing with or without gear leg fairings and wheel
pants, though I don't think this has proven to be the case with all the
RV8's out there. I've looked back at the tail while approaching the stall
and uh, well, it's "interesting viewing" to say the least. You'd have to be
asleep at the wheel to miss the audible cues. I've seen an unpainted RV8
with wing strakes attached just over the wing leading edge at the root. Was
also discussed in an RVator a while back. Has something to do with cleaning
up the dirty air near the wingroot/gear leg intersection at the fuselage at
high angle of attack.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 '51
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| From: | "Brian Denk" <akroguy(at)hotmail.com> |
Subject: RV-List: LOE 5 Move
>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:28:36 -0700
>
>
>I just noticed on the Land Of Enchantment website that they are moving
>the fly-in to a new location at 5T6. While I have been to the museum
>there, which is nice, it looks to be in the middle of nowhere, far from
>lodging and no rental cars. Tell me it aint so. My wife and I really
>enjoy Las Cruces, I for one vote for not moving the fly-in. Someone in
>the know need to fill us in on the reasons for the move.
>
>
>Gary
I'm with you, Gary. It's a great museum. One of the unknown jewels of
classic aircraft collections. But, it's not what I'd consider to be prime
Fly-in real estate. It is rather remote and I don't recall there being much
in the way of FBO services. Could be wrong. Maybe it's grown recently.
I dunno. Cruces was great and the museum was just a short hop away for
anyone interested in seeing it. Could be other motives behind the move that
we're not aware of.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 '51
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr(at)petroblend.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues |
Geez,
I have been traveling all week, almost 3000 miles in the -4 this week, and I
nearly missed all the fun!!!!
This is almost as good as the old tailwheel vs trike, or three-point vs
wheel-landing rampages.
Here is my $.02 worth. This is all "my opinion." Since I have not been
adding much lately, some of the new listers may not know me, and there seems
to be some new found concern about the qualification of opinion givers. I
will share that I am an ATP, CFII, MEI, with type ratings in the B-25, PBY,
DC-3 and additional authorized aircraft rating in the P-51, F-4U, & T-28
with an "all makes and models, single and multi-engine piston powered"
endorsement.
The RV is a lousy aerobatic airplane that does great "gentlemans" acro. Let
me explain, The RV is pretty unforgiving of botched manuvers because the
stall speed is so low, the redline is so high, and the airplane is so clean.
A "good" acro airplane will allow you to screw up nearly any manuver and not
break the airplane. That is absolutely not true of an RV!!! The thing
between your legs in an RV is truely the "wing removal lever"
Spin training should be a no go item for any kind of acro in any kind of
airplane. You do not have to do the spin training in your RV, but if you
are not willing to spin your RV, then your acro should be limited to loops
and rolls at speeds with some margin in them. If you do hammerheads, long
enough, sooner or later you will end up in a spin. If you kick left rudder
and outside aileron at, or nearly at, zero airspeed, these are perfect
pro-spin inputs, and if the airplane is falling off front or back, you stick
in some elevator to hold the vertical line, bingo, spin. Right side up, or
upside down.
If you try to cheat and kick early, you will sooner or later do a snap on
the up-line, with out enough speed to finish it and you'll flop over into a
spin.
The only RV that I have spun is the -4 and it spins and recovers fine,
pretty fast, but, as noted here by someone else, the airplane is not really
happy doing it. The fuselage makes noises that I really dislike. I have a
C/S (forward CG) and if I do not have the stick absolutely full aft it hooks
up and unhooks and that gets kind of aggressive. I do not regularly spin
it. I do not spin it for kicks, only occasionally for proficency. For
kicks I spin my T-crate, it spins pretty quick too, but without all the
spooky noises. The T-6 spins pretty quick too, and is fun. It rattles
shakes, but it is built like a tank and I have no worries about it coming
apart.
Finally, everyone should regularly practice slow flight and stall
recoveries. Stall awareness and spin avoidance will save many more lives
than spin recovery. Except for acro, most places where you are likely to
stall\spin are too close to the ground to recover from a spin, so if you
don't plan to do acro, or flight instruct, I agree that spin training is
optional. Spin training is good training and will make you a better pilot,
it is a good way to learn how to "Fly the Airplane" when the world is
seemingly going to hell around you. Go find an acro instructor with a
Decathalon and explore the envelope.
If you got this far, you can have your $.02 back...
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
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| From: | "Bob 1" <rv3a(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
> >He convinced me it was a very bad idea to play test pilot of this sort in
a
> >homebuilt if I valued myself, my family and MOST OF ALL... my precious,
one
> >of a kind aircraft, unless I could do it the way the pros did.
> >...
>
> Sounds like good advice. Did he tell you how the pros do it?
>
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1. Aircraft spin chute
2. Personal parachute
3. Means of escape
4. A willingness to sacrifice a unique experimental aircraft.
I find it impossible to justify the risk of losing my experimental to spins
that the designer specifically cautions against. For a giggles and grins
spin mission, there are far more suitable aircraft choices.
Bob -
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| From: | "John Danielson" <Jdaniel343(at)bresnan.net> |
| Subject: | RV Stall/Spin Issues |
Well said Doug.
John Danielson
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Rozendaal
Subject: Re: RV-List: RV Stall/Spin Issues
Geez,
I have been traveling all week, almost 3000 miles in the -4 this week,
and I
nearly missed all the fun!!!!
This is almost as good as the old tailwheel vs trike, or three-point vs
wheel-landing rampages.
Here is my $.02 worth. This is all "my opinion." Since I have not been
adding much lately, some of the new listers may not know me, and there
seems
to be some new found concern about the qualification of opinion givers.
I
will share that I am an ATP, CFII, MEI, with type ratings in the B-25,
PBY,
DC-3 and additional authorized aircraft rating in the P-51, F-4U, & T-28
with an "all makes and models, single and multi-engine piston powered"
endorsement.
The RV is a lousy aerobatic airplane that does great "gentlemans" acro.
Let
me explain, The RV is pretty unforgiving of botched manuvers because the
stall speed is so low, the redline is so high, and the airplane is so
clean.
A "good" acro airplane will allow you to screw up nearly any manuver and
not
break the airplane. That is absolutely not true of an RV!!! The thing
between your legs in an RV is truely the "wing removal lever"
Spin training should be a no go item for any kind of acro in any kind of
airplane. You do not have to do the spin training in your RV, but if
you
are not willing to spin your RV, then your acro should be limited to
loops
and rolls at speeds with some margin in them. If you do hammerheads,
long
enough, sooner or later you will end up in a spin. If you kick left
rudder
and outside aileron at, or nearly at, zero airspeed, these are perfect
pro-spin inputs, and if the airplane is falling off front or back, you
stick
in some elevator to hold the vertical line, bingo, spin. Right side up,
or
upside down.
If you try to cheat and kick early, you will sooner or later do a snap
on
the up-line, with out enough speed to finish it and you'll flop over
into a
spin.
The only RV that I have spun is the -4 and it spins and recovers fine,
pretty fast, but, as noted here by someone else, the airplane is not
really
happy doing it. The fuselage makes noises that I really dislike. I
have a
C/S (forward CG) and if I do not have the stick absolutely full aft it
hooks
up and unhooks and that gets kind of aggressive. I do not regularly
spin
it. I do not spin it for kicks, only occasionally for proficency. For
kicks I spin my T-crate, it spins pretty quick too, but without all the
spooky noises. The T-6 spins pretty quick too, and is fun. It rattles
shakes, but it is built like a tank and I have no worries about it
coming
apart.
Finally, everyone should regularly practice slow flight and stall
recoveries. Stall awareness and spin avoidance will save many more
lives
than spin recovery. Except for acro, most places where you are likely
to
stall\spin are too close to the ground to recover from a spin, so if you
don't plan to do acro, or flight instruct, I agree that spin training is
optional. Spin training is good training and will make you a better
pilot,
it is a good way to learn how to "Fly the Airplane" when the world is
seemingly going to hell around you. Go find an acro instructor with a
Decathalon and explore the envelope.
If you got this far, you can have your $.02 back...
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
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| From: | Bobby Hester <bhester(at)hopkinsville.net> |
Ok I know I just read about it last week and now I can't find anything
about it. What is that Edge Gromment material called and were does one
get it? I found something in Spruce but not what I was looking for. The
plastic edgeing that goes around sharp edges to protect wires.
--
Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY
Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/
RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-)
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| From: | "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Edge Gromment? |
It's usually called "flexible Grommet" or "Flexible Grommeting". I found
in the Digikey catalog. See page 85 of the Digikey catalog at
www.digikey.com
Bobby Hester wrote:
>
> Ok I know I just read about it last week and now I can't find anything
> about it. What is that Edge Gromment material called and were does one
> get it? I found something in Spruce but not what I was looking for. The
> plastic edgeing that goes around sharp edges to protect wires.
>
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A
Firewall
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| From: | "Jim Cimino" <jcimino(at)echoes.net> |
| Subject: | Chapter 486 RV Forum? |
Does anybody know anyone involved in the RV Forum put on by Chapter 486? I am
trying to claim my "People's Choice Award". It seems they are not too good on
giving out the awards and they are very hard to contact. This is the same way
it was handled two years ago. I guess they don't feel that the awards they
give are important. I don't know if I will go back any more. If anyone knows
anybody up there, maybe they can put a bug in their ear...it's been two months.
James Cimino
RV-8 SN 80039
100+ Hours
570-842-4057
http://www.geocities.com/jcimino.geo/
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| From: | "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Edge Gromment? |
An update on the previous post. The Digikey web page is a little
confusing on page numbers. I found 2 very diffrerent pages identified as
page 85. Two different catalogs perhaps? Anyway, if you search for
flexible grommet, you'll find it.
> Bobby Hester wrote:
>
>>
>>Ok I know I just read about it last week and now I can't find anything
>>about it. What is that Edge Gromment material called and were does one
>>get it? I found something in Spruce but not what I was looking for. The
>>plastic edgeing that goes around sharp edges to protect wires.
>>
>
>
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A
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| From: | "Jack Ford" <jackoford(at)theofficenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spins and canopies |
Steve,
I have been lurking along the sidelines of this forum for a while.
Specifically, trying to make up my mind whether to build an RV or a Cozy
MKIV (for which I have plans). I am not a low time pilot, I've had spin
training. None of that is germain to this conversation.
One could not hope to find a friendlier, more patient, more helpful group of
people on the internet than on Marc Zeitlin's Unofficial Cozy forum.
Incredible sense of community. Everyone is treated with respect.Very few
personal attacks.
The status conciousness of some of the members of this list in their
impatience with you has tipped the balance to the COZY.
I'm going to stay on this list because some of these folks know something
about airplanes.
Good luck!
Jack Ford
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve zicree" <szicree(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: RV-List: Spins and canopies
>
> For all to read, here is the original text of my highly controversial
post. If I misinterpreted Mark's attitude toward spins I apologize directly
to him, but for the life of me I can't see what I said that was so
controversial.
>
> Mark,
> I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
> deal you think it is. Keep in mind that most good aerobatics courses start
> with spins because botched manuevers can easily turn into spins. In fact,
> the first time my highly skilled instructor demonstrated an immelman he
> accidentally spun us. It is kind of spooky the first time, but confidence
> building as well. At any rate, if you plan on doing loops and such, get
some
> spin training in something first. Not to harp on it, but a split-s can be
a
> dangerous trick if you get things wrong. The potential for overspeed is
> great. Again, they're no big thing with the proper training.
> Steve Zicree
>
> I once stated to the list that I was uncomfortable toting 18 gallons of
open gasoline around my enclosed garage for the purpose of tank testing, and
was told by the experienced builders/flyers that therefore I probably wasn't
smart enough to "share the sky" with the rest of you. Share the sky? Wow!
One poster suggested that I have "lurked" on the list for years because I'm
not worthy of adding to it. The truth is I avoided contributing because most
of what I saw were ego driven arguments. Well, I guess I got sucked in after
all.
>
> Regarding the canopy jettison issue, I ASKED if the downforce on a tip-up
was so great as to prevent anything from lifting it. Again I was told to sit
down and shut up. Not being an expert on such things, I emailed a photo of
the 6 to a colleague of mine who is a fluid dynamicist. He tells me that, in
HIS OPINION the forces on the canopy in forward flight are exerted upward
and backward relative to the airplane. Thus the real issue is the hinge and
the resulting torque created by the drag force.
>
> I am well aware that there are pilots here who are much more experienced
than I, but I also know that flight hours alone do not necessarily make
someone an expert on every issue surrounding design, construction, and
flight. A good example would be the Wright's eventual refutation of
Lilienthal's airfoil L/D data. As I mentioned before, I am an applied
mathematician. This work requires an open, questioning mindset, with tacit
acceptance of dogma getting you nowhere. I am relatively new to the world of
aviation, but from what I've seen here I would have to assume that the
reverse is true in the world of homebuilders, and that daring to question
the old guard simply gets one shouted down. I am perhaps naive or
idealistic, but this discovery is very disappointing to me.
>
> Steve Zicree
>
> disappointed quite Very dissapointing from
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Oke <wjoke(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues |
I especially like these words, copied from Doug R.'s message below;
> .... everyone should regularly practice slow flight and stall
> recoveries. Stall awareness and spin avoidance will save many more
> lives than spin recovery. Except for acro, most places where you are
> likely
> to stall\spin are too close to the ground to recover from a spin, ....
Jim Oke
Wpg., MB
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Danielson" <Jdaniel343(at)bresnan.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: RV Stall/Spin Issues
>
> Well said Doug.
>
> John Danielson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Rozendaal
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: RV Stall/Spin Issues
>
>
> Geez,
>
> I have been traveling all week, almost 3000 miles in the -4 this week,
> and I
> nearly missed all the fun!!!!
>
> This is almost as good as the old tailwheel vs trike, or three-point vs
> wheel-landing rampages.
>
> Here is my $.02 worth. This is all "my opinion." Since I have not been
> adding much lately, some of the new listers may not know me, and there
> seems
> to be some new found concern about the qualification of opinion givers.
> I
> will share that I am an ATP, CFII, MEI, with type ratings in the B-25,
> PBY,
> DC-3 and additional authorized aircraft rating in the P-51, F-4U, & T-28
> with an "all makes and models, single and multi-engine piston powered"
> endorsement.
>
> The RV is a lousy aerobatic airplane that does great "gentlemans" acro.
> Let
> me explain, The RV is pretty unforgiving of botched manuvers because the
> stall speed is so low, the redline is so high, and the airplane is so
> clean.
> A "good" acro airplane will allow you to screw up nearly any manuver and
> not
> break the airplane. That is absolutely not true of an RV!!! The thing
> between your legs in an RV is truely the "wing removal lever"
>
> Spin training should be a no go item for any kind of acro in any kind of
> airplane. You do not have to do the spin training in your RV, but if
> you
> are not willing to spin your RV, then your acro should be limited to
> loops
> and rolls at speeds with some margin in them. If you do hammerheads,
> long
> enough, sooner or later you will end up in a spin. If you kick left
> rudder
> and outside aileron at, or nearly at, zero airspeed, these are perfect
> pro-spin inputs, and if the airplane is falling off front or back, you
> stick
> in some elevator to hold the vertical line, bingo, spin. Right side up,
> or
> upside down.
>
> If you try to cheat and kick early, you will sooner or later do a snap
> on
> the up-line, with out enough speed to finish it and you'll flop over
> into a
> spin.
>
> The only RV that I have spun is the -4 and it spins and recovers fine,
> pretty fast, but, as noted here by someone else, the airplane is not
> really
> happy doing it. The fuselage makes noises that I really dislike. I
> have a
> C/S (forward CG) and if I do not have the stick absolutely full aft it
> hooks
> up and unhooks and that gets kind of aggressive. I do not regularly
> spin
> it. I do not spin it for kicks, only occasionally for proficency. For
> kicks I spin my T-crate, it spins pretty quick too, but without all the
> spooky noises. The T-6 spins pretty quick too, and is fun. It rattles
> shakes, but it is built like a tank and I have no worries about it
> coming
> apart.
>
> Finally, everyone should regularly practice slow flight and stall
> recoveries. Stall awareness and spin avoidance will save many more
> lives
> than spin recovery. Except for acro, most places where you are likely
> to
> stall\spin are too close to the ground to recover from a spin, so if you
> don't plan to do acro, or flight instruct, I agree that spin training is
> optional. Spin training is good training and will make you a better
> pilot,
> it is a good way to learn how to "Fly the Airplane" when the world is
> seemingly going to hell around you. Go find an acro instructor with a
> Decathalon and explore the envelope.
>
> If you got this far, you can have your $.02 back...
>
> Tailwinds,
> Doug Rozendaal
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Oke <wjoke(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues |
Exact analysis of an aircraft's spin characteristics is a complex subject
due to the transient, changing nature of the maneuver from entry through an
initial stage to (sometimes) a steady state situation. Only the really thick
aerodynamics books bother tackling the topic.
The basic theory is that there are inertia forces that work to speed up and
flatten the spin working against aerodynamic forces (aft fuselage shape,
fin, rudder, stabilizer, elevator, etc.) that resist the spin and pitch the
nose downward when recovery is initiated. The planform and airfoil
characteristics of the wing regulate the pro-spin force on the aircraft (the
wing still generates lift and drag even when completely stalled during a
spin). Too much pro-spin inertia compared to the anti-spin aerodynamic
effects makes for an exciting ride.
"Aerodynamics, Aeronautics, and Flight Mechanics" by B.W. McCormick is a
place to start for those so interested.
Jim Oke
Wpg., MB
RV-3, RV-6A
----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Walrath" <der_Jagdflieger(at)prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: RV Stall/Spin Issues
>
>
> Yesterday's posts provided some new insight into this subject
> including the contributions by Scott and Sam below, including
> Van's commentary about RV-6 stall/spin characteristics. With
> some four years now in my RV-6A, including many stalls and spins,
> I'd make these observations.
>
> The short, slick wing of the -6 gives us the performance we enjoy
> but it can also provide very exciting results, especially from high
> angle-of-attack stalls that can suddenly provide you a view
> through the windshield rarely seen by most pilots. 40+ years ago,
> when I took my training, my instructor taught stall avoidance along
> with stall/spin recovery.
>
> Because a couple dozen of our EAA Chapter 168 members already
> had RV's flying, I decided that before I explored these un-natural
> attitudes in my RV, I would get some professional training. 2 years
> ago I flew out to California to spend a couple days with the "Dean" of
> Emergency Maneuver Training, Mr. Rich Stowell. Rich was the
> FAA's first Master CFI-Aerobatic and is the author of numerous books
> and papers on the subject.
>
> Rich and I spent 4 hours spinning my RV-6A and, when we broke for lunch,
> he remarked that I had now logged more spins than were required by the
> FAA to be a professional instructor and commercial pilot. The rest of that
> day and all of the next day were all in a Super Decathelon getting some
> aerobatic training. While you may not be interested in aerobatics, I'd
> strongly recommend spending a few hours with an instructor knowledgeable
> in recovery from unusual attitudes training -- to become constantly aware
> of
> all the ways your bird might bite you -- leaving or arriving at an
> airport.
>
> Links to more information on this are below, including a link to how you
> can get a copy of Rich's text on Emergency Mauever Training from a List
> Supporter, Builder's Bookstore.
>
> Howard Walrath RV-6A N55HW
>
> http://www.richstowell.com/index.htm
>
> http://www.richstowell.com/aopa.htm
>
> http://www.buildersbooks.com/emergency_manuever_training.htm
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott VanArtsdalen" <svanarts(at)yahoo.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
>
>
>>
>> I can sure believe this. When I did my transition training with Mike
>> Seager in the RV-6 the few stalls we did were pretty disconcerting for
>> this Airknocker pilot. I was accustomed to holding my Champ in a stall
>> and just walking it down with rudders. The first stall I did in the 6
>> felt like the world was just dropping out from under me. Then I lowered
>> the nose and tried to bring it back up again like I would in the Champ
>> to start flying again but there was an even more abrupt stall right
>> after the first. Mike just sat there with his hands folded neatly in
>> his lap and calmly said, "OK, now that's a secondary stall, let's try to
>> avoid a third."
>>
>> Anyway this had me really rattled for doing the first stalls in my
>> RV-4. But the 4 stalls very differently from the 6. Not the dramatic
>> drop you get in the 6. Well... I considered it a pretty dramatic drop
>> anyway.
>>
>> I guess the point is, don't generalize these airplanes. Each model has
>> it's own peculiar handling charactaristics. Be familiar with them. I
>> wouldn't spin a 6 just to be familiar with it's spin charactaristics.
>> I'd research it and figure out how to avoid them. I've researched
>> enough to know that spins are safely doable in an RV-4. Not safe with a
>> passenger in the back. Not safe with me doing them because I've NEVER
>> spun an airplane. Probably never will.
>>
>> Remember, we build 'em, we test 'em, we fly 'em. Do all three as safely
>> as you can within your personal capabilities, and the capabilities of
>> your airplane.
>>
>> Sam Buchanan wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>steve zicree wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Mark,
>>>>I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
>>>>deal you think it is.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
>>>spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
>>>to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
>>>credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
>>>survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
>>>another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
>>>
>>>Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
>>>are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
>>>not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
>>>plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
>>>attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
>>>spins would expect.
>>>
>>>I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
>>>RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
>>>planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
>>>probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
>>>RV canopies are received as well. :-)
>>>
>>>Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do!)
>>>
> SNIP******************************
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
>From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>However, the ONLY way to prove otherwise is for somebody to actually jettison
the canopy and successfully jump! Until >that happens, all we can do is speculate
on the odds of being able to actually egress from a flying tip-up RV.
I've got an idea Sam. A while back Van retired one of the very early RV-6s they
had used as a demo ride for years. "Ol Blue" as she was affectionately called,
is still tucked away in his personal hangar. Maybe we could get him to sacrifice
her for a real world experiment on this canopy jettison thing!? You'd
have to find someone willing to put thier tush on the line to do the test (one
time only). Hmmm??? Naaaa..... too risky! Stilllllllll........ :-)
On a more realistic note, I was installing my Odessey battery tray today with AN3
bolts and nutplates and a question occurred to me. We have torque specs for
the regular nuts and stop nuts that we use but is there a torque spec for a
bolt that goes into a nutplate? I got out my trusty "Standard Aircraft Handbook"
but no answers there, just specs for standard type nuts. Any thoughts on
this? I just tightend the bolts till the nutdriver wouldn't turn anymore, since
they're into nutplates they're NOT going to fall out but, do I need to worry
about torquing them? Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | linn walters <lwalters2(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues |
Patience folks .... not RV related (on my part .... don't have one yet)
but it's my chance to learn something about them.
Doug Rozendaal wrote:
>
>Geez,
>
>I have been traveling all week, almost 3000 miles in the -4 this week, and I
>nearly missed all the fun!!!!
>
I'm sure we're not talking about the flying! :-P
>This is almost as good as the old tailwheel vs trike, or three-point vs
>wheel-landing rampages.
>
And you forgot primer wars.
>Here is my $.02 worth. This is all "my opinion." Since I have not been
>adding much lately, some of the new listers may not know me, and there seems
>to be some new found concern about the qualification of opinion givers. I
>will share that I am an ATP, CFII, MEI, with type ratings in the B-25, PBY,
>DC-3 and additional authorized aircraft rating in the P-51, F-4U, & T-28
>with an "all makes and models, single and multi-engine piston powered"
>endorsement.
>
Your reputation preceeds you. I am impressed. Well, impressed is a
poor word. Jealous as hell is more like it!!
>The RV is a lousy aerobatic airplane that does great "gentlemans" acro.
>
Like the T-6 and P-51?
> Let me explain, The RV is pretty unforgiving of botched manuvers because the
>stall speed is so low, the redline is so high, and the airplane is so clean.
>A "good" acro airplane will allow you to screw up nearly any manuver and not
>break the airplane. That is absolutely not true of an RV!!! The thing
>between your legs in an RV is truely the "wing removal lever"
>
You missed the 'yanking and banking' in the pattern thread. Smooth
movement of the controls (and not so rapid) should keep any airplane
within it's design envelope. (IMHO)
>Spin training should be a no go item for any kind of acro in any kind of
>airplane.
>
Absolutely! But, some folks are hard to convince. Sadly, some of those
aren't here to tell us what went wrong.
> You do not have to do the spin training in your RV, but if you
>are not willing to spin your RV, then your acro should be limited to loops
>and rolls at speeds with some margin in them. If you do hammerheads, long
>enough, sooner or later you will end up in a spin. If you kick left rudder
>and outside aileron at, or nearly at, zero airspeed, these are perfect
>pro-spin inputs, and if the airplane is falling off front or back, you stick
>in some elevator to hold the vertical line, bingo, spin. Right side up, or
>upside down.
>
Ah, the infamous 'wifferdill'. I think, for a low-aerobatic-time pilot
not only are they in a spin, but they're also disoriented and haven't a
clue what's going on. Thinking about it can eat up a whole lot of
altitude. The spin training will teach you what to look for and react
almost instinctively.
>If you try to cheat and kick early, you will sooner or later do a snap on
>the up-line, with out enough speed to finish it and you'll flop over into a
>spin.
>
This is true of almost any airplane, aerobatic or not. Even with the
Pitts, and a whole lot of vertical hours (I love that!!!) I've waited
'till too late ..... and ended up in an outside spin because the tail
came around. The Pitts will handle that, but I'm not sure the the RV
and will let someone else relate their experience .... if they can.
>The only RV that I have spun is the -4 and it spins and recovers fine,
>pretty fast, but, as noted here by someone else, the airplane is not really
>happy doing it. The fuselage makes noises that I really dislike.
>
Any idea what makes the noises? Turbulence banging the side of the
fuselage??? Buffet on a stalled vertical fin???
> I have a
>C/S (forward CG) and if I do not have the stick absolutely full aft it hooks
>up and unhooks and that gets kind of aggressive.
>
Now this is intriguing to me. I assume that you're describing a
stalled, unstalled, stalled activity while still in a spin (because of
rudder)? That speaks well of a stable airplane.
> I do not regularly spin
>it. I do not spin it for kicks, only occasionally for proficency. For
>kicks I spin my T-crate, it spins pretty quick too, but without all the
>spooky noises. The T-6 spins pretty quick too, and is fun. It rattles
>shakes, but it is built like a tank and I have no worries about it coming
>apart.
>
>Finally, everyone should regularly practice slow flight and stall
>recoveries. Stall awareness and spin avoidance will save many more lives
>than spin recovery.
>
Excellent advice again. If you don't stall it, you can't spin it. I
think, however, that most folks get into trouble because they're the
limits of the slow flight, and the airplane stalls, and drops a wing,
and since aileron's aren't effective, stomp on a rudder to pick that
wing up. That's the basic way to enter an upright spin. That comment
is for the masses. Doug already knows that!
> Except for acro, most places where you are likely to
>stall\spin are too close to the ground to recover from a spin, so if you
>don't plan to do acro, or flight instruct, I agree that spin training is
>optional. Spin training is good training and will make you a better pilot,
>it is a good way to learn how to "Fly the Airplane" when the world is
>seemingly going to hell around you. Go find an acro instructor with a
>Decathalon and explore the envelope.
>
>If you got this far, you can have your $.02 back...
>
I'll leave it on the counter .... call it small compensation for some
knowledge. Someday we'll meet face to face, I hope. Maybe at
Sun-n-Fun??? I'd love to pick your brain!!!
Linn
>
>Tailwinds,
>Doug Rozendaal
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Valovich, Paul" <pvalovich(at)dcscorp.com> |
A lot of discussion here about spin philosophy. How about spin recovery?
For us new RV'ers, do any of you old guys have favored techniques to get
out of a spin (note that I am completely ignoring the issue of how you
got there in the first place)? Although a low altitude spin would seem
to be a fatal endeavor, there has to be a height above ground where a
few seconds - or milliseconds - saved in the recovery sequence could
make a difference.
Paul Valovich
Booger
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| From: | "DAVID REEL" <dreel(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Oil where I didn't expect it |
I've had a beautiful Bart LaLonde IO360-B2B engine sitting in a crate
for much longer than I care to admit. Now it is finally in danger of
getting hung - in another month or so. It's dangling from an engine
hoist. I thought I'd bolt the AFP air controller on today (temporarily)
so I could roll the engine into a close approximation of its final
resting place and get an idea of where the control cables should
penetrate the firewall, where the fuel hoses go, etc.. Much to my
surprise when I removed the plate Bart had bolted on to the intake, and
pulled out the plastic plug, about a pint of oil splooshed out onto the
floor.
Since he had a big plug in there, I'm assuming the oil was put there
intentionally, but why is there oil in my air intake? Further more, how
do I clean it out before I try bolting the air controller on? I don't
want oil dribbling into my air controller.
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A
Since noone seems to have answered this, Tom, here goes. When preped for long
term storage, a lot of oil is sprayed into each cylinder. Some will have open
intake valves so this gets into the intake plumbing and runs down to the bottom
over time. Perfectly normal & also occured on my O360 from Lycoming. To remove
it I just wiped out inside as far up as I could reach with paper towels.
Because it's been sitting a long time, everything that could has collected at
the bottom. If you rotate the crankshaft however, some fresh oil will get in
& though you should avoid rotation as much as possible to leave an oil film
on the cylinder walls, you will have to rotate when you fit the spinner. So,
I'd delay attaching anything you don't want to get oily until the last minute.
Dave Reel - RV8A
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Large Aluminum Tubing - source? |
| From: | sjhdcl(at)kingston.net |
Can anyone give me another source for large aluminum tubing?
Aircraft spruce has 4" tubing that is 0.049" wall thickness (6061-T6).
Wicks has 4 1/2" diameter tubing but its 0.120" wall thickness (6061-T6).
Anybody know where I can get 4 1/4" tubing with 0.062" or 0.049" wall
thickness?
Steve
RV7A #2
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve zicree" <szicree(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Spins and canopies |
Jerry,
Why are you even commenting on my open and honest response to ANOTHER lister
regarding his impression of this forum? In spite of my "little feelings"
being hurt, I have gone back and looked at every post I've ever made to this
list trying to see just what you might perceive as "negative", and see
nothing until the personal attacks, condescension, and sarcasm from yourself
and others began. Is standing up to you considered negative? I have also
received upwards of a dozen off-list responses voicing opinions similar to
the one expressed in Jack's email. If my truthful remarks about possibly
abandoning my project speaks volumes about me, then what of the hundreds of
builders who've had similar doubts over the course of their projects for
equally trivial reasons? Not you though, right superman? The fact that the
people on the list are "faceless" emboldens many to take cheap shots, but I
try not to operate that way. As I said, I reviewed all of my comments and
took "a look in the mirror" because it's the right thing to do. Have you?
Steve Zicree
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr(at)petroblend.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spin Recovery |
I teach two methods. The first is the Muller-Beggs Emergency Spin Recover
Procedure
1. Cut the throttle.
2. Take your hand off the stick.
3. Kick full opposite rudder until the spin stops.
4. Neutralize rudder and pull out of dive.
The second is the PARE Method
1. Power, idle
2. Ailerons, neutral
3. Rudder, full & opposite the rotation
4. Elevator, briskly, forward for an upright spin, aft for inverted.
The Beggs method works in most airplanes, but not all. An AT-6 requires the
PARE method if the spin develops, based on hear-say, the RV-6 might be in
that same group. Most instructors teach the Beggs method, because in the
airplanes that most people fly, it works, and has the highest likely hood of
success.
This all sounds easy, but especially in inverted spins, if you look "up"
(from where you sit, actually down) at the ground, instead of directly down
the cowling, evidently it is easy to perceive rotation in the opposite
direction and several people have been killed because they continued to push
on the wrong rudder. Some instructors teach "push on the hard rudder" that
would be the one that the air loads, due to rotation, are pushing back at
you.
Some airplanes, P-51, do not immediately come out of a spin and may require
1 or 2 additional turns with proper input to stop the rotation. This would
require lots of discipline and patience, as well as a tremendous amount of
confidence in the knowledge that you have the correct rudder input selected
while you are waiting for the spinning to stop. FWIW, I have not spun the
Mustang, and I do not plan to. The book says if you have not recovered by
10,000 feet, get out.
There have been some pretty casual discussions of spins here, one thing not
even discussed is crossovers, again, I am no expert, but I have done this in
my T-crate. Upon recovery if you forget to neutralize the rudder and pull
the nose up a little hard in the recovery you will spin the opposite
direction from an accelerated stall and the world will start turning pretty
quickly. Also If you move the elevator too aggressively you can flip from
an upright stall to an inverted, or vice-versa, spin also. (never done
that, thank you)
None of this is stuff that I would recommend in an RV. I am just sharing
this for the purpose of awareness of the trouble you can get into in a
responsive little short wing airplane. Spins in a rag tube airplane with an
enormous wings can be a non-event. We should not transfer that cavalier
attitude about spins to very clean, very responsive airplanes.
One point I failed to make in my last post was about the wing removal lever.
An RV-8 at 1550# and 230 mph has 18 Gs available, twice the ultimate
structural limit. I repeat, these are lousy aerobatic airplanes that happen
to do great aerobatics.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
>
> A lot of discussion here about spin philosophy. How about spin recovery?
> For us new RV'ers, do any of you old guys have favored techniques to get
> out of a spin (note that I am completely ignoring the issue of how you
> got there in the first place)? Although a low altitude spin would seem
> to be a fatal endeavor, there has to be a height above ground where a
> few seconds - or milliseconds - saved in the recovery sequence could
> make a difference.
>
> Paul Valovich
>
> Booger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Aileron trim springs |
Fellow listers,
Does anyone know if the RV8 manual trim kit springs are the same as the RV6 manual
trim kit springs.!?
I bought the -8 set to get the benefit of some of the parts and the instructions.
I may need to get the -6 set to get the correct springs though...I think the
-8 springs are too heavy.
Anyone with a set of -6 manual aileron trim instructions - I would appreciate a
set of scans....
Thanks,
Ralph Capen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christopher Stone <rv8iator(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Fw: RV8-List: Dynon remote compasses |
Just forwarding this question to the RV-List for John...
CS
-----Forwarded Message-----
From: John Porter <december29(at)peoplepc.com>
Subject: RV8-List: Dynon remote compasses
--> RV8-List message posted by: "John Porter"
Hi,
Where are guys putting the Dynon remote compasses? I have seen in the tail and
on the wing access panels but haven't heard of how well they work. Anyone
out there with a system working on a -8?
Thanks,
John Porter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GMC <gmcnutt(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Large Aluminum Tubing - source? |
Can anyone give me another source for large aluminum tubing?
Aircraft spruce has 4" tubing that is 0.049" wall thickness (6061-T6).
Wicks has 4 1/2" diameter tubing but its 0.120" wall thickness (6061-T6).
Anybody know where I can get 4 1/4" tubing with 0.062" or 0.049" wall
thickness?
Steve
RV7A #2
Try agricultural sprinkling/irrigation suppliers, I believe one of our local
builders used this source for long range tanks that slip into the wing
lightening holes.
George in Langley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Fenstermacher" <dfenstermacher(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Spin Recovery |
Throttle(s) - Idle
Rudder and Ailerons - neutral.
Stick - abruptly full aft and hold
Rudder - abruptly apply full rudder opposite spin direction, opposite turn
neddle and hold
Stick - abruptly forward one turn after applying rudder
Controld neutral and recover from the dive.
That's my best recollection of the bold face from the Air Force.
Incidentally, why don't they teach bold face in the civilian world?
Dave
> [Original Message]
> From: Doug Rozendaal <dougr(at)petroblend.com>
> To:
> Date: 11/15/2004 12:01:54 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery
>
>
> I teach two methods. The first is the Muller-Beggs Emergency Spin
Recover
> Procedure
>
> 1. Cut the throttle.
>
> 2. Take your hand off the stick.
>
> 3. Kick full opposite rudder until the spin stops.
>
> 4. Neutralize rudder and pull out of dive.
>
> The second is the PARE Method
>
> 1. Power, idle
>
> 2. Ailerons, neutral
>
> 3. Rudder, full & opposite the rotation
>
> 4. Elevator, briskly, forward for an upright spin, aft for inverted.
>
> The Beggs method works in most airplanes, but not all. An AT-6 requires
the
> PARE method if the spin develops, based on hear-say, the RV-6 might be in
> that same group. Most instructors teach the Beggs method, because in the
> airplanes that most people fly, it works, and has the highest likely hood
of
> success.
>
> This all sounds easy, but especially in inverted spins, if you look "up"
> (from where you sit, actually down) at the ground, instead of directly
down
> the cowling, evidently it is easy to perceive rotation in the opposite
> direction and several people have been killed because they continued to
push
> on the wrong rudder. Some instructors teach "push on the hard rudder"
that
> would be the one that the air loads, due to rotation, are pushing back at
> you.
>
> Some airplanes, P-51, do not immediately come out of a spin and may
require
> 1 or 2 additional turns with proper input to stop the rotation. This
would
> require lots of discipline and patience, as well as a tremendous amount
of
> confidence in the knowledge that you have the correct rudder input
selected
> while you are waiting for the spinning to stop. FWIW, I have not spun
the
> Mustang, and I do not plan to. The book says if you have not recovered
by
> 10,000 feet, get out.
>
> There have been some pretty casual discussions of spins here, one thing
not
> even discussed is crossovers, again, I am no expert, but I have done this
in
> my T-crate. Upon recovery if you forget to neutralize the rudder and
pull
> the nose up a little hard in the recovery you will spin the opposite
> direction from an accelerated stall and the world will start turning
pretty
> quickly. Also If you move the elevator too aggressively you can flip
from
> an upright stall to an inverted, or vice-versa, spin also. (never done
> that, thank you)
>
> None of this is stuff that I would recommend in an RV. I am just sharing
> this for the purpose of awareness of the trouble you can get into in a
> responsive little short wing airplane. Spins in a rag tube airplane with
an
> enormous wings can be a non-event. We should not transfer that cavalier
> attitude about spins to very clean, very responsive airplanes.
>
> One point I failed to make in my last post was about the wing removal
lever.
> An RV-8 at 1550# and 230 mph has 18 Gs available, twice the ultimate
> structural limit. I repeat, these are lousy aerobatic airplanes that
happen
> to do great aerobatics.
>
> Tailwinds,
> Doug Rozendaal
>
>
> >
> > A lot of discussion here about spin philosophy. How about spin recovery?
> > For us new RV'ers, do any of you old guys have favored techniques to get
> > out of a spin (note that I am completely ignoring the issue of how you
> > got there in the first place)? Although a low altitude spin would seem
> > to be a fatal endeavor, there has to be a height above ground where a
> > few seconds - or milliseconds - saved in the recovery sequence could
> > make a difference.
> >
> > Paul Valovich
> >
> > Booger
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "BRUCE GRAY" <brucerv84us(at)hotmail.com> |
This weekend prepping the gap fairing for the flap on the left wing I
referred to the plans for the correct call outs for rivet size. On drawing
10A, detail "A" it calls out for an AN470AD4-8,9 for the 3 most inner rivets
that tie the gap fairing to the rear spar. Looking at the fairing, I dimpled
it! Then looking at the spar, I countersunk it also. Oh man, do I screw up?
No, because a few weeks earlier I was studying the flap plans (14A) gearing
to construct those and notice a call out to put in AN426AD4-9 rivets in the
three most inner holes for clearance issues for the lead edge of the flap in
the flap channel.
Don't know but I'll give factory a call and see if it can be change so know
one over looks this issue. I say that because you do not have enough
material in the gap fairing to get the proper countersink depth to put in
after the fact that it is already riveted to the rear spar.
Maybe people are installing AN470's and bending the lead edge of the flap
more to allow for clearance?
Good luck either way.
Bruce Gray
RV8 Wing's
#81745
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Ford" <jackoford(at)theofficenet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spins and canopies |
In fairness to all, I neglected to mention that there was some GREAT WISDOM
expressed along the line in this thread. Sometimes by the adversary.
But when people start to make personal comments aside from the issue, good
taste and etiquette are breached. Stick to the ISSUE, gentlemen.
Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve zicree" <szicree(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies
>
> Jerry,
>
> Why are you even commenting on my open and honest response to ANOTHER
lister
> regarding his impression of this forum? In spite of my "little feelings"
> being hurt, I have gone back and looked at every post I've ever made to
this
> list trying to see just what you might perceive as "negative", and see
> nothing until the personal attacks, condescension, and sarcasm from
yourself
> and others began. Is standing up to you considered negative? I have also
> received upwards of a dozen off-list responses voicing opinions similar to
> the one expressed in Jack's email. If my truthful remarks about possibly
> abandoning my project speaks volumes about me, then what of the hundreds
of
> builders who've had similar doubts over the course of their projects for
> equally trivial reasons? Not you though, right superman? The fact that
the
> people on the list are "faceless" emboldens many to take cheap shots, but
I
> try not to operate that way. As I said, I reviewed all of my comments and
> took "a look in the mirror" because it's the right thing to do. Have you?
>
> Steve Zicree
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randy Lervold" <randy(at)romeolima.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spins, canopies & extingushers |
> Speaking of which, I haven't found a good spot to mount my little halon
> extinguisher yet. Can anyone recommend a place in the 8/8A?
>
> -
> Larry Bowen, RV-8, 23.5 Hrs.
> Larry(at)BowenAero.com
> http://BowenAero.com
Larry, this worked well for me...
http://www.rv-8.com/Pictures/Mvc-529x.jpg
I could easily extract it by reaching behind my back. I checked by
practicing in flight.
Randy Lervold
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr(at)petroblend.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spin Recovery |
Mike,
I can't get any work done today....
The maneuver you described is exactly a falling leaf. This is a GREAT
training exercise and it is a great way to enter a spin. It was used
extensively in WWII to teach using the rudder to raise the stalled wing, not
the aileron. Most pilots will raise the stalled wing with the aileron and
in most spam can type airplanes, it works, but it is still a bad idea.
The problem is if the left wing stalls, starts to fall and you put in right
aileron, you have increased the angle of attack on the wing that is stalling
and again, in some airplanes, i.e., T-6 or a DC-3, you will instantly fill
the windshield with the earth. Suppose you are turning base to final. You
overshoot and in an effort not to exceed 30 deg bank angle like your
instructor taught, you push the nose around with the rudder. This is a
skidding turn, and the way you know it is a skidding turn is the ball is
"up." In a slip, the ball will be down. In a skid the inside wing will
stall first because it is moving slower than the outside wing. If you try
to raise it with aileron, increasing the angle of attack on the stalled
wing, you may impact the ground upside down, if you raise it with the
rudder, you just might crash right side up, a much more survivable
scenario..... Or better yet, recover from the stall as the wings are
passing through level and fly away.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JVanLaak(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: planes are fun, -8 spin |
I have to jump in here, as people appear to be repeating an error made by
many journalists who fly with demo pilots.
The spinning characteristics of any plane can be drastically different
depending on where the CG is. Demo pilots fly these stalls with forward CG to
show
that the airplane is super safe, but it does not represent the whole picture.
A friend has an 8 that has a very forward empty CG, to the point where he
carries 30 lbs of sand in the baggage area to get comfortable landings solo. It
is very benign spinning with that CG. Put a 200 lbder in the back and it
would probably spin like a top and take some positive effort to recover.
I had a wonderful RV-4 that I thoroughly enjoyed, but which I had to be extra
cautious with when I had a passenger over 130 lbs or so. It was built light,
with 150 hp, wood prop, etc, but the CG really went aft with a big pax.
Jim Van Laak
Currently RV-6 N79RL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dean" <dvanwinkle(at)royell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question ( Now Bolt Torque |
)
Dean
I was taught that the proper torque for bolts and nuts/nutplates was
determined by adding the torque spec to the amount of torque required to
overcome thread friction of the locking nut/nutplate. Otherwise you will
not attain the desired clamp-up of the fastener. Worst case: Consider that
torque to overcome thread friction alone exceeds the torque spec for the
fastener.
Dean Van Winkle
Retired Aeronautical Engineer
RV-9A Fuselage/Finish
----- Original Message -----
From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net>
Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
> >From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
> >Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> >
> On a more realistic note, I was installing my Odessey battery tray today
with AN3 bolts and nutplates and a question occurred to me. We have torque
specs for the regular nuts and stop nuts that we use but is there a torque
spec for a bolt that goes into a nutplate? I got out my trusty "Standard
Aircraft Handbook" but no answers there, just specs for standard type nuts.
Any thoughts on this? I just tightend the bolts till the nutdriver wouldn't
turn anymore, since they're into nutplates they're NOT going to fall out
but, do I need to worry about torquing them? Thanks.
>
> Dean Psiropoulos
> RV-6A N197DM
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christopher Stone <rv8iator(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ( Now Bolt Torque ) |
Dean...
The bolt torque issue is one that I have always had a tough time reconciling.
Too many variables. Lubricated threads and head? Or not? Lock nut or plain nut?
Locking nut plate or not... On and on. For small fasteners the torque required
to overcome the locking fastener is generally as much as the "published"
torque value which is ambiguous since the spec does not usually indicate lubed
or dry.
The method that is consistant but tedious is to measure rotation of the fastener
head after it is seated. Knowing the pitch one can calculate the amount of
preload or tension is generated per degree of rotation. (Whith the help of a
stress/strain curve for the material the fastener is made of).
For fasteners less then 1/4" preload shoud be 90% of material yield strength. greater
then 1/4" 100% of yield strength. (Not ultimate strength)
All this being said... I usually go by my calibrated wrist to know how tight is
tight.
Chris Stone
RV-8 wings (one done one to go)
Mech/Aero Eng.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dean <dvanwinkle(at)royell.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question ( Now Bolt Torque
)
Dean
I was taught that the proper torque for bolts and nuts/nutplates was
determined by adding the torque spec to the amount of torque required to
overcome thread friction of the locking nut/nutplate. Otherwise you will
not attain the desired clamp-up of the fastener. Worst case: Consider that
torque to overcome thread friction alone exceeds the torque spec for the
fastener.
Dean Van Winkle
Retired Aeronautical Engineer
RV-9A Fuselage/Finish
----- Original Message -----
From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net>
Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
> >From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
> >Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> >
> On a more realistic note, I was installing my Odessey battery tray today
with AN3 bolts and nutplates and a question occurred to me. We have torque
specs for the regular nuts and stop nuts that we use but is there a torque
spec for a bolt that goes into a nutplate? I got out my trusty "Standard
Aircraft Handbook" but no answers there, just specs for standard type nuts.
Any thoughts on this? I just tightend the bolts till the nutdriver wouldn't
turn anymore, since they're into nutplates they're NOT going to fall out
but, do I need to worry about torquing them? Thanks.
>
> Dean Psiropoulos
> RV-6A N197DM
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Wheeler North <wnorth(at)sdccd.cc.ca.us> |
Ken,
just to confirm Dan's comment. The 3, 4, and 6 aileron bell crank is very
different then the 7, 8, and 9.
For one its a first class lever, and the other pivots on one end rather than
in the middle. For two, its double plate aluminum crank on a bearing vs a
folded 4130 steel assembly welded to a bushing tube.
But in either case a drilled hole should allow one to bolt to the rod end
about the same. The key is the lever length from the pivot to the attach
point. It should be similar to that of the servo lever pivot length, but so
arranged that the ailerons make their full swing prior to the servo reaching
its stops.
On my bell crank I laminated aluminum plates like this to trap both sides of
the rod end.
_###________________
_______________________
pvt brng _______ rod end>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
_______________________
____________________
#
#
Sorry I can't draw it better
W
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <bdube(at)al.noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: ( Now Bolt Torque ) |
>
>Dean...
>
>The bolt torque issue is one that I have always had a tough time
>reconciling. Too many variables. Lubricated threads and head? Or
>not? Lock nut or plain nut? Locking nut plate or not... On and on. For
>small fasteners the torque required to overcome the locking fastener is
>generally as much as the "published" torque value which is ambiguous since
>the spec does not usually indicate lubed or dry.
Read the torque caused by the drag of the locking fastener well
before the nut seats. Add that number to the specified torque. Use that
total to set the fastener.
> The method that is consistant but tedious is to measure rotation of the
> fastener head after it is seated. Knowing the pitch one can calculate
> the amount of preload or tension is generated per degree of
> rotation. (Whith the help of a stress/strain curve for the material the
> fastener is made of).
This doesn't work because you also must know the material
properties (and geometry) of the part being clamped. If the flange is
slightly bowed, or there is a chip under the nut, or.... the compliance of
the clamped part changes and the clamping force per turn changes with it.
>All this being said... I usually go by my calibrated wrist to know how
>tight is tight.
It is useful to pay attention to what your wrist is telling you to
be sure that the setting (and the calibration) of the torque wrench is
within reason. This sort of sanity check keeps you from accidentally
setting the wrench for inch-pounds instead of ft-pounds. However, relying
on your wrist as the primary standard can be a big mistake when working on
an airplane. You are betting your life on each "free throw".
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Spin Recovery |
In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time,
T.gummo(at)verizon.net writes:
> Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37.
I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold Face "
???
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | luckymacy(at)comcast.net (lucky) |
| Subject: | Re: Spin Recovery |
All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklist had to be committed
to wrote memory. They were
TYPED IN BOLD FACE AND ALL CAPS.
HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO REMEMBER
THIS TUNE?
WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR?
1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED.
2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED.
(HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS)
lucky
-------------- Original message --------------
>
> In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time,
> T.gummo(at)verizon.net writes:
>
> > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37.
>
> I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold Face "
> ???
>
>
>
>
>
>
All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklisthad to be committed
to wrote memory. They were
TYPED IN BOLD FACE AND ALL CAPS.
HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO REMEMBER THIS
TUNE?
WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR?
1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED.
2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED.
(HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS)
lucky
-------------- Original message --------------
-- RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK(at)aol.com
In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time,
T.gummo(at)verizon.net writes:
Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37.
I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold Face "
???
e Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve zicree" <szicree(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ( Now Bolt Torque ) |
I should have added that my "calibrated wrist" is used only for things like
inspection covers and instrument mounting screws. For structural stuff, I
always use a nice little inch-pound torque screwdriver I got at Spruce.
Rather than a click, it actually lets go at the right torque value -- works
very well.
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dube" <bdube(at)al.noaa.gov>
Subject: Re: RV-List: ( Now Bolt Torque )
>
> >
> >Dean...
> >
> >The bolt torque issue is one that I have always had a tough time
> >reconciling. Too many variables. Lubricated threads and head? Or
> >not? Lock nut or plain nut? Locking nut plate or not... On and on.
For
> >small fasteners the torque required to overcome the locking fastener is
> >generally as much as the "published" torque value which is ambiguous
since
> >the spec does not usually indicate lubed or dry.
>
> Read the torque caused by the drag of the locking fastener well
> before the nut seats. Add that number to the specified torque. Use that
> total to set the fastener.
>
> > The method that is consistant but tedious is to measure rotation of the
> > fastener head after it is seated. Knowing the pitch one can calculate
> > the amount of preload or tension is generated per degree of
> > rotation. (Whith the help of a stress/strain curve for the material the
> > fastener is made of).
>
> This doesn't work because you also must know the material
> properties (and geometry) of the part being clamped. If the flange is
> slightly bowed, or there is a chip under the nut, or.... the compliance of
> the clamped part changes and the clamping force per turn changes with it.
>
> >All this being said... I usually go by my calibrated wrist to know how
> >tight is tight.
> It is useful to pay attention to what your wrist is telling you
to
> be sure that the setting (and the calibration) of the torque wrench is
> within reason. This sort of sanity check keeps you from accidentally
> setting the wrench for inch-pounds instead of ft-pounds. However, relying
> on your wrist as the primary standard can be a big mistake when working on
> an airplane. You are betting your life on each "free throw".
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dr. Kevin Leathers" <DrLeathers(at)822heal.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 8A looks like What? |
Hello Listers,
Last time at Van's Homecoming, I overheard someone say that, to him, the
RV-8A resembles some sort of military aircraft. I can not remember what he
said it looked like. Do any of you know what he may have been talking
about??
Doc
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Barrow" <bobbarrow(at)optusnet.com.au> |
| Subject: | Orndorff videos available (Australia) |
I know a guy who spent Aust$100k building an RV and it was a dog
because he refused to spend $200 getting some decent construction
videos. If you live in Australia and want to build a nice plane to
protect your investment you might like to consider purchasing the
following PAL Orndorff videos (the best available) that I have now
finished with. They are all the current editions and are for both
the taildragger and nose-wheel models.
RV7/8 Prepunched Empennage Construction: A 2 tape series. 3.0 hours.
RV7/8 Wing Construction: A 2 tape series. 3.5 hours.
Sheet Metal Tools and Construction: 1.0 hour.
Watching a Lycoming Engine Rebuild: 1.0 hour.
I'll sell the lot for Aust$150 and you'll save 25% off retail, plus
you'll save GST, freight, clearance, and lead time.
For further info on these videos you can go to the Ordorff site at
http://www.fly-gbi.com/
Contact me directly at bobbarrow@o...
I'm in Melbourne, Australia.
Regards Bob Barrow
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Burton" <dburton(at)nwlink.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 8A looks like What? |
Mentor T-34 to me...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Daniel Clark <dclark(at)nwlink.com> |
Wheeler, still a pretty good drawing with ASCII text !
Daniel Clark
Wheeler North wrote:
>
>Ken,
>
>just to confirm Dan's comment. The 3, 4, and 6 aileron bell crank is very
>different then the 7, 8, and 9.
>
>For one its a first class lever, and the other pivots on one end rather than
>in the middle. For two, its double plate aluminum crank on a bearing vs a
>folded 4130 steel assembly welded to a bushing tube.
>
>But in either case a drilled hole should allow one to bolt to the rod end
>about the same. The key is the lever length from the pivot to the attach
>point. It should be similar to that of the servo lever pivot length, but so
>arranged that the ailerons make their full swing prior to the servo reaching
>its stops.
>
>On my bell crank I laminated aluminum plates like this to trap both sides of
>the rod end.
>
> _###________________
>_______________________
>pvt brng _______ rod end>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>_______________________
> ____________________
> #
> #
>
>Sorry I can't draw it better
>
>W
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question - DUMB QUESTION |
I guess my original post was really too dumb to get a reply but I'm serious.
Probably shows inexperience but if the big deal is aerodynamic forces on the
canopy creating a "can't get out" situation and assuming you aren't in a
violent spin/tumble,.... why couldn't you just grab the removable passenger
side stick and beat the plexi canopy until it gives up.
If it breaks as easy as everyone says, a couple of good licks and who knows
where the broken pieces go but there will be a hole to scoot through. I
would guess that if you broke out the top of a slider, it would ruin the
shape and maybe allow you to slide it open if it didn't completely warp it
as it blew off the rest of the rear plexi. It would certainly equalize the
pressures pretty quick. (I know broken glass, etc. is a hazard but this is
sort of a last resort isn't it?)
Now to put it in a more plausible scenario but still a stretch, there was a
post on one of the lists about an oil leak covering the windscreen and
having no forward or side visibility. Read three examples this year due to
leaky CS prop crank seal. With the tip-up, I'm not sure what I would do
but with the slider, I THINK(?) I might try to break a hole in the rear
slider part leaving the windscreen intact and allowing a look out the side.
Just considering the options. What else would work better ?
Pleading ignorance in advance, but it looks to me that you can open any of
them in flight assuming you want out bad enough and the tumbling hasn't beat
you senseless.
Bill Schlatterer
7a QB fuse/panel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of DEAN PSIROPOULOS
Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>However, the ONLY way to prove otherwise is for somebody to actually
jettison the canopy and successfully jump! Until >that happens, all we can
do is speculate on the odds of being able to actually egress from a flying
tip-up RV.
I've got an idea Sam. A while back Van retired one of the very early RV-6s
they had used as a demo ride for years. "Ol Blue" as she was affectionately
called, is still tucked away in his personal hangar. Maybe we could get him
to sacrifice her for a real world experiment on this canopy jettison thing!?
You'd have to find someone willing to put thier tush on the line to do the
test (one time only). Hmmm??? Naaaa..... too risky! Stilllllllll........
:-)
On a more realistic note, I was installing my Odessey battery tray today
with AN3 bolts and nutplates and a question occurred to me. We have torque
specs for the regular nuts and stop nuts that we use but is there a torque
spec for a bolt that goes into a nutplate? I got out my trusty "Standard
Aircraft Handbook" but no answers there, just specs for standard type nuts.
Any thoughts on this? I just tightend the bolts till the nutdriver wouldn't
turn anymore, since they're into nutplates they're NOT going to fall out
but, do I need to worry about torquing them? Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | ( Now Bolt Torque ) |
> I have to agree, Chris. How many times have you heard of a
> bolt breaking
> because it was tightened a little too tight, or even a lot
> too tight? I mean, I
> have been working on cars for 45 years, and I have (almost)
> never seen it
> happen, at least its extremely rare.
Torque specs are generally not designed to prevent bolts from breaking, but
to minimize the chances of fatigue failure. After all, if you break it
during torquing, no big deal, it is simply replaced. And, if it isn't
broken during the torquing step, it is very unlikely to simply break in use
(ignoring fatigue). However, in most situations, there is an optimum
clamping force which maximizes the fatigue life of the bolt. Too tight or
too loose and fatigue life is reduced. Keep this in mind as you torque
down the empennage mounting bolts. It is also good practice to overtorque
the bolt a little initially to crunch dust and small debris in the joint,
then back off the bolt and properly torque.
Alex Peterson
RV6-A 552 hours
Maple Grove, MN
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Simmons" <ken(at)truckstop.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bell crank/Trutrak |
Wheeler,
Thanks for the info. I think you're exactly right when referring to the old RV-3
wing. The new B wing for the RV-3 is more like the 7/8 though. That's one reason
you can get it quickbuild. The RV-4 still doesn't have any QB options. That's
why I listed the part number for the bell crank. I was hoping someone could
check their 7/8 plans to see if they were the same. The part number again is
Wd-421-L(R).
I have noticed one thing that will affect installing the Trutrak. The brackets
that hold the bell crank are oriented differently on the 3B wing. Both of the
brackets mount to the spar facing down. I imagine this is due to the shorter spar
height/wing thickness. This means the one angle attaching the servo to the
upper bracket would have to be modified.
Thanks.
Ken
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Wheeler North <wnorth(at)sdccd.cc.ca.us>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:08:18 -0800
>
>Ken,
>
>just to confirm Dan's comment. The 3, 4, and 6 aileron bell crank is very
>different then the 7, 8, and 9.
>
>For one its a first class lever, and the other pivots on one end rather than
>in the middle. For two, its double plate aluminum crank on a bearing vs a
>folded 4130 steel assembly welded to a bushing tube.
>
>But in either case a drilled hole should allow one to bolt to the rod end
>about the same. The key is the lever length from the pivot to the attach
>point. It should be similar to that of the servo lever pivot length, but so
>arranged that the ailerons make their full swing prior to the servo reaching
>its stops.
>
>On my bell crank I laminated aluminum plates like this to trap both sides of
>the rod end.
>
> _###________________
>_______________________
>pvt brng _______ rod end>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>_______________________
> ____________________
> #
> #
>
>Sorry I can't draw it better
>
>W
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)bowenaero.com> |
| Subject: | Spins, canopies & extingushers |
Did you just std AN3 bolts? The tail isn't tearing up the seat-back?
Thx,
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Randy Lervold [mailto:randy(at)romeolima.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 1:49 PM
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins, canopies & extingushers
>
>
> > Speaking of which, I haven't found a good spot to mount my
> little halon
> > extinguisher yet. Can anyone recommend a place in the 8/8A?
> >
> > -
> > Larry Bowen, RV-8, 23.5 Hrs.
> > Larry(at)BowenAero.com
> > http://BowenAero.com
>
>
> Larry, this worked well for me...
> http://www.rv-8.com/Pictures/Mvc-529x.jpg
>
> I could easily extract it by reaching behind my back. I
> checked by practicing in flight.
>
> Randy Lervold
>
>
> ========
> ========
> Matronics Forums.
> ========
> ========
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Barrow" <bobbarrow(at)optusnet.com.au> |
| Subject: | RV7 spin recovery |
It would appear that the RV8 has reasonable spin recovery but what about the RV7
and 7A. Has anyone spun theirs. It is obvious that in the first instance Vans
were worried about the spin recovery on the RV7 and eventually transposed the
larger RV9 rudder onto the 7 to give it greater rudder authority. Any feedback
on whether it worked. Any one out there spun both a 7 and 8 and can compare.
Or what about a 6 and 7 (with the new rudder).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve zicree" <szicree(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ( Now Bolt Torque ) |
Another often overlooked consequence of over-torqueing a bolt is what is
sometimes referred to as "waisting", where the bolt diameter actually
reduces in the middle due to the excessive stretch. It's probably not a huge
issue on airframe components, but can cause problems in things where close
tolerance between bolt and hole is desired. Stuff like engine rod bearing
caps, case half bolts, etc. I think the only place on my airframe where this
might be an issue is in the wing attach hardware.
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: ( Now Bolt Torque )
>
> > I have to agree, Chris. How many times have you heard of a
> > bolt breaking
> > because it was tightened a little too tight, or even a lot
> > too tight? I mean, I
> > have been working on cars for 45 years, and I have (almost)
> > never seen it
> > happen, at least its extremely rare.
>
> Torque specs are generally not designed to prevent bolts from breaking,
but
> to minimize the chances of fatigue failure. After all, if you break it
> during torquing, no big deal, it is simply replaced. And, if it isn't
> broken during the torquing step, it is very unlikely to simply break in
use
> (ignoring fatigue). However, in most situations, there is an optimum
> clamping force which maximizes the fatigue life of the bolt. Too tight or
> too loose and fatigue life is reduced. Keep this in mind as you torque
> down the empennage mounting bolts. It is also good practice to overtorque
> the bolt a little initially to crunch dust and small debris in the joint,
> then back off the bolt and properly torque.
>
> Alex Peterson
> RV6-A 552 hours
> Maple Grove, MN
>
> http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve zicree" <szicree(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | And now for something completely different |
So here's one for pilots of all ages (even gray hairs), experience levels (students
too), and political leanings (except maybe Nader-ites). I've often wondered,
and been asked by many, why the safety record for G.A. is so much worse than
that for commercial carriers. We constantly hear that, statistically speaking,
flying on an airliner is safer than brushing your teeth or what have you,
but flying in a private aircraft is much more dangerous than even driving your
car. I've casually looked over the numbers and it is very true, no matter how
you slice it, that G.A. is much more dangerous than airline travel. I know that
one reason is quality of training and another is probably the repetitive nature
of commercial aviation operations. I think safety systems and redundancy
are also probably superior in jets, but those aircraft are also significantly
more complex and unforgiving than light aircraft. I'm mostly looking for some
brainstorming on this topic with my goal being to take whatever I can from the
airlines and make it mine. They are obviously doing something that we as a group
are not, and I'd like to learn from their success. I see light planes crash
on tv almost weekly, and can barely remember the last time an air carrier lost
one. In my experience, pilots typically treat each accident as a unique event
and are satisfied once the direct cause is known; I'm trying to see the bigger
picture if possible.
Steve Zicree
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hopperdhh(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: ( Now Bolt Torque ) |
Very good point, Alex, about the fatigue life driving the optimum clamping
force. It occurred to me that clamping aluminum may have something to do with
the seemingly low torque specs in A/C handbooks. Would the greater temp. coef.
of expansion of AL be the reason?
Now about that fatigue life -- Why does Lycoming specify only torquing the
rod bolts one time, and throwing them away if they have ever been torqued? Are
they really running the bolts that close to the elastic limit? Does
stretching them within their elastic limit reduce their life at all? I mean, springs
flex forever without breaking. Surely a dozen retorques on a rod bolt isn't
going to reduce its life, is it? Do they just like to sell those expensive rod
bolts?
This ought to get me flamed real good!
Dan Hopper
RV-7A
N766DH (It flies! -- 67 hours now)
In a message dated 11/15/04 9:03:08 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net writes:
> Torque specs are generally not designed to prevent bolts from breaking, but
> to minimize the chances of fatigue failure. After all, if you break it
> during torquing, no big deal, it is simply replaced. And, if it isn't
> broken during the torquing step, it is very unlikely to simply break in use
> (ignoring fatigue). However, in most situations, there is an optimum
> clamping force which maximizes the fatigue life of the bolt. Too tight or
> too loose and fatigue life is reduced. Keep this in mind as you torque
> down the empennage mounting bolts. It is also good practice to overtorque
> the bolt a little initially to crunch dust and small debris in the joint,
> then back off the bolt and properly torque.
>
> Alex Peterson
> RV6-A 552 hours
> Maple Grove, MN
>
> http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=tQmox5oS7ZxXQbOpqF7E81JOTQ+gkimCPS5tsbGwNPZ+B3wOL2+S7yIUCplkvIa8hfX2Avpol62U37o15c9gFVD7fvYzIPtWOMj/eSnaKKP6rWM0arkjvHCPX+ltHv/O4xt/k9iOIWf04dz6EV/aK/ZPF9LV7JW2x5Pups+wObU;
| From: | Rick Galati <rick6a(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ( Now Bolt Torque) |
In my experience, applying the specified torque to all manner of bolts was emphasized
repeatedly at McDonnell-Douglas. And with good reason. If you worked with
hi-loks for very long, you undoubtedly cracked or sheared the head clean off
many of those close tolerance fasteners by getting too ambitious with your
calibrated wrist. Periodic classes had a way of underscoring just how easy it
is to over torque using the calibrated wrist method. Simply put, intuitively
we tend to over-torque. Stripping the threads is another common result of over
torquing. Granted, most of us will never install a hi-lok, and I cannot honestly
recall ever having sheared the head off an AN bolt, but I have sheared all
manner of bolts off cleanly with the structure at the thread end, including
those on titanium bolts (try drilling those heads off for pin removal) by applying
too much torque to the nut. All that said, in the real world we are constantly
challenged with bolts locations in the most d
ifficult
areas to get a torque wrench to. Sometimes it seems, you just have to make do
by being aware of the potential consequences and simply be sensible with your
approach.
Rick Galati RV-6A "finishing"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | ( Now Bolt Torque ) |
> at all? I mean, springs
> flex forever without breaking. Surely a dozen retorques on a
> rod bolt isn't
> going to reduce its life, is it? Do they just like to sell
> those expensive rod
> bolts?
Many springs are not designed for infinite life. Garage door springs are
not designed for infinite life, for some unknown reason. Regarding the rod
end bolts, one torquing does indeed chew up some fatigue life, and really
bad things happen when one of those lets go.
Alex Peterson
RV6-A 552 hours
Maple Grove, MN
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr(at)petroblend.com> |
| Subject: | Re: And now for something completely different |
>
> So here's one for pilots of all ages (even gray hairs), experience levels
(students too), and political leanings (except maybe Nader-ites). I've often
wondered, and been asked by many, why the safety record for G.A. is so much
worse than that for commercial carriers.
Now here is a topic!!!
I am the chair of the Commemorative Air Force Stand-Eval committee and
Flight safety board. We have had a couple tough years and we are trying to
figure out what to do about it. I have spent the last year working on
programs and trying to develop risk management strategies for Warbird
aircraft. Last month I attended the Bombardier Learjet Safety stand-down
where I listened to some of the best and brightest in the world of aviation
psycology, psychairatry, and phsiology. It was a great seminar but also
disconcerting. As pilots if we have the choice, we often make poor choices.
To answer your question, the airlines have taken most of the "Choice" out of
the flying. These are called S.O.Ps, in short, "Standards" Net result,
safer skies. In G.A. we make our own choices and as a group, we do a poor
job. So we have to grow up, take responsibility and make better choices as
a group. This involes education, attitude, and peer council. We have lots
of work to do.
The experimental world has a pretty lousy safety record as well. My
understanding is that RV's do better than the general homebuilt population
and I am inclined to believe that based on the insurance rates. Ask your
self this question how many friends have you lost flying little airplanes??
For me it is a huge number and we need to change that.
I am going to run out on a limb here. Lets try to do an exercise here on
the list that we did in the CAF. Every pilot went through this process in
the CAF. Did it help? I don't know, but it caused us to sit down among our
peers and discuss the risks in our business and brainstorm ways to reduce
them.
I would like as many people as possible to contribute the following
information. If we are willing to acknowledge that there is risk associated
with what we do, let's talk about some of those risks. What bad can come
from that.
Here are the questions and included is an example of answers.
1. Identify an Industry Risk in flying experimental amatuer built aircraft.
These are things we see lots of other people do that is risky.
i.e. First flights by builders with low experience who have not been
flying for very much for 5 years while they are building.
2. Rate that risk. 1-10
There are lots of accidents on first flights, and more
importantly, there are lots of "near accidents" I will call it a 9 based on
what I have seen at my airport
3. Rate the reward. 1-10
It is a fairly high reward, there is a feeling that the builder
deserves the thrill of the first flight.
4. Suggest a mitigating strategy.
The EAA flight advisor program is a great strategy, but several
people do not use it. They "Choose" a higher level of risk instead of
accepting the fact that someone may tell them they are not ready. As a
community we should STRONGLY encourage our local builders to use the Flight
Advisor Program.
Below are the 4 questions, cut out every thing else in this email and answer
these questions, and then others can add or discuss mitigating strategies.
If someone else has already identified your risk, do it anyway, it will be a
vote for the importance of that area and you may have different ratings or
mitigating strategy. Here are the rules. The risk, the risk rating, and the
reward rating are not adjustable. If someone sees something as a risk then,
so be it. Arguing about the risk is denial, our mission is to discuss the
mitigating strategies.
This should be fun!
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Push the reply button and delete everything above this line, then answer
these questions and push send.
1. Identify an Industry Risk in flying experimental amatuer built aircraft.
Things we see lots of pilots do that is risky.
2. Rate that risk. 1-10
3. Rate the reward. 1-10
4. Suggest a mitigating strategy.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "BRUCE GRAY" <brucerv84us(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ( Now Bolt Torque ) |
Hey Chris, Where are you located? I myself am in the "one done one to go",
on my RV8 wings. The first one went together ok no complaints but the second
one is flying together with great results. I may have to put in for the
fuse. kit sooner than expected.
Good luck with yours.
Bruce Gray
RV8 Wings
#81745
>From: Christopher Stone <rv8iator(at)earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: ( Now Bolt Torque )
>Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:06:57 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
>
>
>Dean...
>
>The bolt torque issue is one that I have always had a tough time
>reconciling. Too many variables. Lubricated threads and head? Or not?
>Lock nut or plain nut? Locking nut plate or not... On and on. For small
>fasteners the torque required to overcome the locking fastener is generally
>as much as the "published" torque value which is ambiguous since the spec
>does not usually indicate lubed or dry.
> The method that is consistant but tedious is to measure rotation of the
>fastener head after it is seated. Knowing the pitch one can calculate the
>amount of preload or tension is generated per degree of rotation. (Whith
>the help of a stress/strain curve for the material the fastener is made
>of).
>For fasteners less then 1/4" preload shoud be 90% of material yield
>strength. greater then 1/4" 100% of yield strength. (Not ultimate strength)
>
>All this being said... I usually go by my calibrated wrist to know how
>tight is tight.
>
>
>Chris Stone
>RV-8 wings (one done one to go)
>Mech/Aero Eng.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dean <dvanwinkle(at)royell.net>
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question ( Now Bolt
>Torque )
>
>
>Dean
>
>I was taught that the proper torque for bolts and nuts/nutplates was
>determined by adding the torque spec to the amount of torque required to
>overcome thread friction of the locking nut/nutplate. Otherwise you will
>not attain the desired clamp-up of the fastener. Worst case: Consider
>that
>torque to overcome thread friction alone exceeds the torque spec for the
>fastener.
>
>Dean Van Winkle
>Retired Aeronautical Engineer
>RV-9A Fuselage/Finish
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net>
>To:
>Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
>
>
> >
> > >From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
> > >Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> > >
> > On a more realistic note, I was installing my Odessey battery tray today
>with AN3 bolts and nutplates and a question occurred to me. We have torque
>specs for the regular nuts and stop nuts that we use but is there a torque
>spec for a bolt that goes into a nutplate? I got out my trusty "Standard
>Aircraft Handbook" but no answers there, just specs for standard type nuts.
>Any thoughts on this? I just tightend the bolts till the nutdriver
>wouldn't
>turn anymore, since they're into nutplates they're NOT going to fall out
>but, do I need to worry about torquing them? Thanks.
> >
> > Dean Psiropoulos
> > RV-6A N197DM
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Zilik <zilik(at)excelgeo.com> |
"rv-list(at)matronics.com"
| Subject: | Forced Landing. (long) |
Last Saturday morning was a great day to fly. We had to dodge the low
lying thin scudd below us and the Bravo airspace above us. There was a
nice breeze from the south and at 20"/2400rpm we cruised at 185 kt
ground speed. What better flying could you have. The trip home was
another story.
After and east takeoff (flight of 3) from GXY we turned south and chased
after a newly flying supercharge-Subie-powered RV-7. Prop to 2500 rpm,
full throttle (24.5" at 6000') and the subie in our sites. As we got
near the subie we called him up and he cranked his prop to high rpm.
That slowed our rapid gain on him but we were still closing the range.
Then my lycoming started running rough.
I shoved the mixture in which helped but it still ran a little rough.
Leaning even a little caused the engine to roughen up more. Mixture back
in. I called lead stating I had a rough engine and could not keep up and
things were getting rougher quickly. I switched tanks, turned the boost
pump on pulled on carb heat. Nothing worked the engine was slowly dying.
Lead pointed us to a friends grass strip 6.5 miles SSE but I did not
think I would make it. (remember that nice south breeze) I was looking
at the fields and roads just in case. I checked the mags (one EI and one
mag) and it ran equally bad on both ignitions. Fuel flow was showing
approximately 14 gph. Now I'm at full throttle 2500rpm and still showing
24.5" MP with an engine that is now starting to shake the airframe a lot
and an IAS of 130 mph down from 190 IAS in the subie chase. I'm now high
6999' one foot below the Bravo airspace and 1500' AGL when I finally see
the grass strip just south of my position. The engine is hardly running
now. I chopped what little power I had and put 99PZ into the steepest
slip she's ever seen. This is were I messed up and I hate to admit it
but I was too fast for the short strip when I passed over the corn on
the north end. I pulled up trading airspeed for altitude and pushed the
throttle in half way. She ran smooth. I came around for another approach
with a much more manageable airspeed, brushed the standing corn on the
north with my wheel pants and landed successfully on terra firma. The
butterflies in my stomach didn't start till I had to do the go-around.
Now some may question my next move. She ran good on the go-around so I
did a run-up, used all the available strip and swore if I was not off
the ground by the halfway point (1000')I would abort the takeoff. FTG
was 19.5 nautical from where I was with another dirt strip 10 south. I
flew at 18" 2500 rpm all the way back without any problems. A little
fast on the landing with the 16 kt crosswind but other than that it was
a uneventful flight.
What could be wrong with 99PZ? Some history:
Oh the engine is a Aerosport O-360-A1A, carburated swinging a Hartzell.
9.2:1 pistons.
Denver Jackpot air-race.
Soon after departing Rock Springs WYO at low level full throttle 2600
rpm (97 OAT) I looked at my wife and asked her if the engine seemed
rough? It was hard to tell in the bumpy thermal air. I thought I leaned
too much so I pushed the red knob in and re-leaned and all was well.
Jackpot to Denver via Bendover Utah. 10000 feet full throttle 2400 rpm
we just rounded the restricted airspace and turned west towards
Wendover. As we crossed the ridge the engine again ran rough, like too
lean. Boost pump on, switch tanks and push the red knob in again.
Smoothed right out and leaned normally after that. A quick low level run
down the salt flats (what fun) and then over the rockpile to Denver. The
engine ran fine the rest of the way home.
I did a 100 hour on the engine and found nothing out of the ordinary.
We went to OSH, no problems.
Labor day saw us to East Texas to visit dad. On the way back while
dodging T-storms the problem again revisited. I checked everything but
the red knob fixed it again. We could lean normally after that and had
and uneventful flight home.
I checked fuel filters, boost pump flow from both tanks, checked the
carb screen again and replace the intake tube gaskets on the cylinder
head on two cylinders cause the bolts seemed only hand tight. the two
others were fine. Checked the primer ports, lines and valve. no leaks.
Denver to IA. On upwind leaving the pattern at FTG the engine ran rough
and would not smooth out. Even the red knob did not help. Aborted
mission. Seemed to run smooth as soon as I reduced throttle to land.
Did valve wobble check. Nothing found.
Many breakfast flights east and west over the rockpile with no rough
spells.
Then Saturdays forced landing. 99PZ is officially grounded until
something is fixed.
Some observations:
The red knob seems to be directly connected to the problem but lately
does not seem to help.
All instances were at full throttle. Seems, I say seems, to run good at
partial throttle settings.
boost pump, tanks carb heat or ignition source makes no change.
I'm thinking carburetor vent, sticking float or something.
Any ideas??
Gary Zilik
RV-6A N99PZ
700 hours tach time.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Sipp" <rsipp(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Spin Recovery |
----- Original Message -----
From: "lucky" <luckymacy(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery
>
> All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklist had to be
> committed to wrote memory. They were
>
> TYPED IN BOLD FACE AND ALL CAPS.
>
> HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO
> REMEMBER THIS TUNE?
>
> WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR?
I'll guess, T-38.
Dick Sipp
RV4
RV10
> 1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED.
> 2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED.
>
> (HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS)
>
> lucky
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
>>
>> In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time,
>> T.gummo(at)verizon.net writes:
>>
>> > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37.
>>
>> I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold
>> Face "
>> ???
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklisthad to be
> committed to wrote memory. They were
>
> TYPED IN BOLD FACE AND ALL CAPS.
>
> HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO
> REMEMBER THIS TUNE?
>
> WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR?
>
> 1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED.
> 2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED.
>
> (HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS)
>
> lucky
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
> -- RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK(at)aol.com
>
> In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time,
> T.gummo(at)verizon.net writes:
>
> Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37.
>
> I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold Face
> "
> ???
>
>
> e Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Skylor Piper <skylor4(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Forced Landing. (long) |
What's is your engine monitor telling you when it runs
rough? What are the CHT's & EGT's doing. Which
cylinder is changing?
You DO have an engine monitor, right? They're worth
their weight in gold, and can often help identify
problems before they bocome serious.
Skylor
--- Gary Zilik wrote:
>
>
> Last Saturday morning was a great day to fly. We had
> to dodge the low
> lying thin scudd below us and the Bravo airspace
> above us. There was a
> nice breeze from the south and at 20"/2400rpm we
> cruised at 185 kt
> ground speed. What better flying could you have. The
> trip home was
> another story.
>
> After and east takeoff (flight of 3) from GXY we
> turned south and chased
> after a newly flying supercharge-Subie-powered RV-7.
> Prop to 2500 rpm,
> full throttle (24.5" at 6000') and the subie in our
> sites. As we got
> near the subie we called him up and he cranked his
> prop to high rpm.
> That slowed our rapid gain on him but we were still
> closing the range.
> Then my lycoming started running rough.
>
> I shoved the mixture in which helped but it still
> ran a little rough.
> Leaning even a little caused the engine to roughen
> up more. Mixture back
> in. I called lead stating I had a rough engine and
> could not keep up and
> things were getting rougher quickly. I switched
> tanks, turned the boost
> pump on pulled on carb heat. Nothing worked the
> engine was slowly dying.
> Lead pointed us to a friends grass strip 6.5 miles
> SSE but I did not
> think I would make it. (remember that nice south
> breeze) I was looking
> at the fields and roads just in case. I checked the
> mags (one EI and one
> mag) and it ran equally bad on both ignitions. Fuel
> flow was showing
> approximately 14 gph. Now I'm at full throttle
> 2500rpm and still showing
> 24.5" MP with an engine that is now starting to
> shake the airframe a lot
> and an IAS of 130 mph down from 190 IAS in the subie
> chase. I'm now high
> 6999' one foot below the Bravo airspace and 1500'
> AGL when I finally see
> the grass strip just south of my position. The
> engine is hardly running
> now. I chopped what little power I had and put 99PZ
> into the steepest
> slip she's ever seen. This is were I messed up and I
> hate to admit it
> but I was too fast for the short strip when I passed
> over the corn on
> the north end. I pulled up trading airspeed for
> altitude and pushed the
> throttle in half way. She ran smooth. I came around
> for another approach
> with a much more manageable airspeed, brushed the
> standing corn on the
> north with my wheel pants and landed successfully on
> terra firma. The
> butterflies in my stomach didn't start till I had to
> do the go-around.
>
> Now some may question my next move. She ran good on
> the go-around so I
> did a run-up, used all the available strip and swore
> if I was not off
> the ground by the halfway point (1000')I would abort
> the takeoff. FTG
> was 19.5 nautical from where I was with another dirt
> strip 10 south. I
> flew at 18" 2500 rpm all the way back without any
> problems. A little
> fast on the landing with the 16 kt crosswind but
> other than that it was
> a uneventful flight.
>
> What could be wrong with 99PZ? Some history:
>
> Oh the engine is a Aerosport O-360-A1A, carburated
> swinging a Hartzell.
> 9.2:1 pistons.
>
> Denver Jackpot air-race.
> Soon after departing Rock Springs WYO at low level
> full throttle 2600
> rpm (97 OAT) I looked at my wife and asked her if
> the engine seemed
> rough? It was hard to tell in the bumpy thermal air.
> I thought I leaned
> too much so I pushed the red knob in and re-leaned
> and all was well.
>
> Jackpot to Denver via Bendover Utah. 10000 feet full
> throttle 2400 rpm
> we just rounded the restricted airspace and turned
> west towards
> Wendover. As we crossed the ridge the engine again
> ran rough, like too
> lean. Boost pump on, switch tanks and push the red
> knob in again.
> Smoothed right out and leaned normally after that. A
> quick low level run
> down the salt flats (what fun) and then over the
> rockpile to Denver. The
> engine ran fine the rest of the way home.
>
> I did a 100 hour on the engine and found nothing out
> of the ordinary.
>
> We went to OSH, no problems.
>
> Labor day saw us to East Texas to visit dad. On the
> way back while
> dodging T-storms the problem again revisited. I
> checked everything but
> the red knob fixed it again. We could lean normally
> after that and had
> and uneventful flight home.
>
> I checked fuel filters, boost pump flow from both
> tanks, checked the
> carb screen again and replace the intake tube
> gaskets on the cylinder
> head on two cylinders cause the bolts seemed only
> hand tight. the two
> others were fine. Checked the primer ports, lines
> and valve. no leaks.
>
> Denver to IA. On upwind leaving the pattern at FTG
> the engine ran rough
> and would not smooth out. Even the red knob did not
> help. Aborted
> mission. Seemed to run smooth as soon as I reduced
> throttle to land.
>
> Did valve wobble check. Nothing found.
>
> Many breakfast flights east and west over the
> rockpile with no rough
> spells.
>
> Then Saturdays forced landing. 99PZ is officially
> grounded until
> something is fixed.
>
> Some observations:
>
> The red knob seems to be directly connected to the
> problem but lately
> does not seem to help.
>
> All instances were at full throttle. Seems, I say
> seems, to run good at
> partial throttle settings.
>
> boost pump, tanks carb heat or ignition source makes
> no change.
>
> I'm thinking carburetor vent, sticking float or
> something.
>
> Any ideas??
>
> Gary Zilik
> RV-6A N99PZ
> 700 hours tach time.
>
>
>
> Click on the
> this
> by the
> Admin.
> _->
> Contributions
>
=== message truncated ==
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <bdube(at)al.noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Forced Landing. (long) |
This sounds like classic carb ice. Your carb heat is not working
for some reason. It also may be working very poorly.
When you throttled back for a time, the carb had a chance to thaw.
That is why the engine recovered.
If the carb heat is working correctly, you should see a slight
drop in power a few moments after you pull the lever. If no RPM drop
occurs, the heat is not working.
Keep in mind that the muff offers some flow restriction. Thus, the
presence of RPM drop does not indicate for certain that the carb heat is
working. (A lack of drop, however, indicates that it is NOT working, if
that makes any sense.)
If you have RPM drop, you next need to test the temperature of the
carb venturi somehow. If you can rig up a thermocouple somehow, this would
be the best way to be sure the carb heat is working properly.
>
>Last Saturday morning was a great day to fly. We had to dodge the low
>lying thin scudd below us and the Bravo airspace above us. There was a
>nice breeze from the south and at 20"/2400rpm we cruised at 185 kt
>ground speed. What better flying could you have. The trip home was
>another story.
>
>After and east takeoff (flight of 3) from GXY we turned south and chased
>after a newly flying supercharge-Subie-powered RV-7. Prop to 2500 rpm,
>full throttle (24.5" at 6000') and the subie in our sites. As we got
>near the subie we called him up and he cranked his prop to high rpm.
>That slowed our rapid gain on him but we were still closing the range.
>Then my lycoming started running rough.
>
>I shoved the mixture in which helped but it still ran a little rough.
>Leaning even a little caused the engine to roughen up more. Mixture back
>in. I called lead stating I had a rough engine and could not keep up and
>things were getting rougher quickly. I switched tanks, turned the boost
>pump on pulled on carb heat. Nothing worked the engine was slowly dying.
> Lead pointed us to a friends grass strip 6.5 miles SSE but I did not
>think I would make it. (remember that nice south breeze) I was looking
>at the fields and roads just in case. I checked the mags (one EI and one
>mag) and it ran equally bad on both ignitions. Fuel flow was showing
>approximately 14 gph. Now I'm at full throttle 2500rpm and still showing
>24.5" MP with an engine that is now starting to shake the airframe a lot
>and an IAS of 130 mph down from 190 IAS in the subie chase. I'm now high
>6999' one foot below the Bravo airspace and 1500' AGL when I finally see
>the grass strip just south of my position. The engine is hardly running
>now. I chopped what little power I had and put 99PZ into the steepest
>slip she's ever seen. This is were I messed up and I hate to admit it
>but I was too fast for the short strip when I passed over the corn on
>the north end. I pulled up trading airspeed for altitude and pushed the
>throttle in half way. She ran smooth. I came around for another approach
>with a much more manageable airspeed, brushed the standing corn on the
>north with my wheel pants and landed successfully on terra firma. The
>butterflies in my stomach didn't start till I had to do the go-around.
>
>Now some may question my next move. She ran good on the go-around so I
>did a run-up, used all the available strip and swore if I was not off
>the ground by the halfway point (1000')I would abort the takeoff. FTG
>was 19.5 nautical from where I was with another dirt strip 10 south. I
>flew at 18" 2500 rpm all the way back without any problems. A little
>fast on the landing with the 16 kt crosswind but other than that it was
>a uneventful flight.
>
>What could be wrong with 99PZ? Some history:
>
>Oh the engine is a Aerosport O-360-A1A, carburated swinging a Hartzell.
>9.2:1 pistons.
>
>Denver Jackpot air-race.
>Soon after departing Rock Springs WYO at low level full throttle 2600
>rpm (97 OAT) I looked at my wife and asked her if the engine seemed
>rough? It was hard to tell in the bumpy thermal air. I thought I leaned
>too much so I pushed the red knob in and re-leaned and all was well.
>
>Jackpot to Denver via Bendover Utah. 10000 feet full throttle 2400 rpm
>we just rounded the restricted airspace and turned west towards
>Wendover. As we crossed the ridge the engine again ran rough, like too
>lean. Boost pump on, switch tanks and push the red knob in again.
>Smoothed right out and leaned normally after that. A quick low level run
>down the salt flats (what fun) and then over the rockpile to Denver. The
>engine ran fine the rest of the way home.
>
>I did a 100 hour on the engine and found nothing out of the ordinary.
>
>We went to OSH, no problems.
>
>Labor day saw us to East Texas to visit dad. On the way back while
>dodging T-storms the problem again revisited. I checked everything but
>the red knob fixed it again. We could lean normally after that and had
>and uneventful flight home.
>
>I checked fuel filters, boost pump flow from both tanks, checked the
>carb screen again and replace the intake tube gaskets on the cylinder
>head on two cylinders cause the bolts seemed only hand tight. the two
>others were fine. Checked the primer ports, lines and valve. no leaks.
>
>Denver to IA. On upwind leaving the pattern at FTG the engine ran rough
>and would not smooth out. Even the red knob did not help. Aborted
>mission. Seemed to run smooth as soon as I reduced throttle to land.
>
>Did valve wobble check. Nothing found.
>
>Many breakfast flights east and west over the rockpile with no rough
>spells.
>
>Then Saturdays forced landing. 99PZ is officially grounded until
>something is fixed.
>
>Some observations:
>
>The red knob seems to be directly connected to the problem but lately
>does not seem to help.
>
>All instances were at full throttle. Seems, I say seems, to run good at
>partial throttle settings.
>
>boost pump, tanks carb heat or ignition source makes no change.
>
>I'm thinking carburetor vent, sticking float or something.
>
>Any ideas??
>
>Gary Zilik
>RV-6A N99PZ
>700 hours tach time.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EMAproducts(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: falling leaf |
Falling leaf?
It's about what it felt like. Except the leaf is working smoothly and
seems to always stay upright... well maybe not now that I think about
it. . I most certainly did neither at the outset.
>>>That is what we used to call it, Still teach it to every student prior to
solo, and have for around 42 years. This is one of the problems in modern
instruction methods, one must learn to fly the airplane, and what happens if
you do or don't do it right!
An "old timer"?
Elbie
www.riteangle.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <bdube(at)al.noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Lead counter weights |
>
>
>I had a hell of a time shaping the elevator counterweights this past
>weekend, is there some easy trick to cut this stuff?
Band saw. Pocket knife.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Maureen & Bob Christensen" <mchriste(at)danvilletelco.net> |
Does anyone have a plan of source for parking brakes for a RV-8?
Thanks,
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kosta Lewis" <mikel(at)dimensional.com> |
>WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR?
>1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED.
>2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED.
>(HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS)
>Sounds like the old T-33 seat. The kind with the 20mm cannon shell that
was
>fired to rapidly shove the seat up the rails at some risk to your back.
>Later seats with a rocket motor were a lot kinder.
>Holy Cow!!!!! That is an old one (sorry... not to imply that you are
old).
>They got rid of the leg braces and the triggers a looooong time ago!
The
>leg braces were automatic on the new seats, and they figured out that
at
>T-38 speeds, the triggers wasted valuable time. The new(??) Bold Face
was
>"HANDGRIPS-RAISE". Something I could remember.
OK: is this a design change in the current plans? My -4 plans are from
the early '90s. Oh, wait: here it is; page 42: "Replace 20mm cannon
shell with rocket motor, using adaptor and motor provided. Order on line
or from Van's accessory catalog." Whew; I thought I had missed
something.
Spin recovery: sometimes you need a small blast of prop wash from the
fan to give the rudder more authority. If you can, learn spins in
something docile like a Cub or Champ because they behave and recover
quickly. But even in one of those, they can look pretty freaky the first
couple if times.
Falling leaf: taught frequently in the "old days" for coordination and
feeling the airplane. Seen from the front (or back) the airplane is in a
stall and drifting left and right as it descends, like a falling leaf
would look. Easy in the Cub, one of the primary trainers when these were
taught, more of challenge in the RVs.
Fire extinguisher: mine sits on the left front seat floor pan, facing
forward, end against the spar, near the right fuselage wall. It takes a
pretty good pull to get it out of its holder; it would take a lot of
negative Gs to pull it out.
Bolt torque: how DARE you talk about something builder related.
Building a Cozy: it will take longer to build, fly differently, take
longer to take off and land, be "cozy" in the front seat, make more
noise in an off-field landing, look more futuristic, but still be an
airplane you would be proud to own. You should fly both before deciding,
not depend on the occasional cat fight that occurs on this list. Get a
couple hundred folks together in any venue and at least 2 or 3 will not
get along.
Cat fights: sometimes it is easy to yell at someone on the faceless
platform we have here. It would be a little more civil, perhaps, in a
friendly face to face discussion, although there would still be a few
"your full of crap"s exchanged, no doubt. I have been on this list for
some time and am pretty amused with what occasionally goes on, but it
all dies away, sometimes with people leaving the list in disgust, most
staying on, waiting for the next one, holding their opinions for
"monitor mumbling" at home. It can actually make the list more
interesting, especially in Digest mode. My delete button is getting the
ink worn off but still works.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled program, which is already in
progress.
Michael
RV-4 N232 Suzie Q
Suggestion: replace your battery about every 3 years. 4 years was just a
little too long.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Forced Landing. (long) |
Carb ice is my bet. Scares the bejeezus out of you the first time... 8-)
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Zilik" <zilik(at)excelgeo.com>
Subject: RV-List: Forced Landing. (long)
>
> Last Saturday morning was a great day to fly. We had to dodge the low
> lying thin scudd below us and the Bravo airspace above us. There was a
> nice breeze from the south and at 20"/2400rpm we cruised at 185 kt
> ground speed. What better flying could you have. The trip home was
> another story.
>
> After and east takeoff (flight of 3) from GXY we turned south and chased
> after a newly flying supercharge-Subie-powered RV-7. Prop to 2500 rpm,
> full throttle (24.5" at 6000') and the subie in our sites. As we got
> near the subie we called him up and he cranked his prop to high rpm.
> That slowed our rapid gain on him but we were still closing the range.
> Then my lycoming started running rough.
>
> I shoved the mixture in which helped but it still ran a little rough.
> Leaning even a little caused the engine to roughen up more. Mixture back
> in. I called lead stating I had a rough engine and could not keep up and
> things were getting rougher quickly. I switched tanks, turned the boost
> pump on pulled on carb heat. Nothing worked the engine was slowly dying.
> Lead pointed us to a friends grass strip 6.5 miles SSE but I did not
> think I would make it. (remember that nice south breeze) I was looking
> at the fields and roads just in case. I checked the mags (one EI and one
> mag) and it ran equally bad on both ignitions. Fuel flow was showing
> approximately 14 gph. Now I'm at full throttle 2500rpm and still showing
> 24.5" MP with an engine that is now starting to shake the airframe a lot
> and an IAS of 130 mph down from 190 IAS in the subie chase. I'm now high
> 6999' one foot below the Bravo airspace and 1500' AGL when I finally see
> the grass strip just south of my position. The engine is hardly running
> now. I chopped what little power I had and put 99PZ into the steepest
> slip she's ever seen. This is were I messed up and I hate to admit it
> but I was too fast for the short strip when I passed over the corn on
> the north end. I pulled up trading airspeed for altitude and pushed the
> throttle in half way. She ran smooth. I came around for another approach
> with a much more manageable airspeed, brushed the standing corn on the
> north with my wheel pants and landed successfully on terra firma. The
> butterflies in my stomach didn't start till I had to do the go-around.
>
> Now some may question my next move. She ran good on the go-around so I
> did a run-up, used all the available strip and swore if I was not off
> the ground by the halfway point (1000')I would abort the takeoff. FTG
> was 19.5 nautical from where I was with another dirt strip 10 south. I
> flew at 18" 2500 rpm all the way back without any problems. A little
> fast on the landing with the 16 kt crosswind but other than that it was
> a uneventful flight.
>
> What could be wrong with 99PZ? Some history:
>
> Oh the engine is a Aerosport O-360-A1A, carburated swinging a Hartzell.
> 9.2:1 pistons.
>
> Denver Jackpot air-race.
> Soon after departing Rock Springs WYO at low level full throttle 2600
> rpm (97 OAT) I looked at my wife and asked her if the engine seemed
> rough? It was hard to tell in the bumpy thermal air. I thought I leaned
> too much so I pushed the red knob in and re-leaned and all was well.
>
> Jackpot to Denver via Bendover Utah. 10000 feet full throttle 2400 rpm
> we just rounded the restricted airspace and turned west towards
> Wendover. As we crossed the ridge the engine again ran rough, like too
> lean. Boost pump on, switch tanks and push the red knob in again.
> Smoothed right out and leaned normally after that. A quick low level run
> down the salt flats (what fun) and then over the rockpile to Denver. The
> engine ran fine the rest of the way home.
>
> I did a 100 hour on the engine and found nothing out of the ordinary.
>
> We went to OSH, no problems.
>
> Labor day saw us to East Texas to visit dad. On the way back while
> dodging T-storms the problem again revisited. I checked everything but
> the red knob fixed it again. We could lean normally after that and had
> and uneventful flight home.
>
> I checked fuel filters, boost pump flow from both tanks, checked the
> carb screen again and replace the intake tube gaskets on the cylinder
> head on two cylinders cause the bolts seemed only hand tight. the two
> others were fine. Checked the primer ports, lines and valve. no leaks.
>
> Denver to IA. On upwind leaving the pattern at FTG the engine ran rough
> and would not smooth out. Even the red knob did not help. Aborted
> mission. Seemed to run smooth as soon as I reduced throttle to land.
>
> Did valve wobble check. Nothing found.
>
> Many breakfast flights east and west over the rockpile with no rough
> spells.
>
> Then Saturdays forced landing. 99PZ is officially grounded until
> something is fixed.
>
> Some observations:
>
> The red knob seems to be directly connected to the problem but lately
> does not seem to help.
>
> All instances were at full throttle. Seems, I say seems, to run good at
> partial throttle settings.
>
> boost pump, tanks carb heat or ignition source makes no change.
>
> I'm thinking carburetor vent, sticking float or something.
>
> Any ideas??
>
> Gary Zilik
> RV-6A N99PZ
> 700 hours tach time.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim L. Cox" <jlcox(at)elp.rr.com> |
Santa Teresa (5T6) is my "home airport" and I believe it would be perfect for the
LOE flyin. Lots of open ramp space. It sits out by itself but is no farther
from the west side of El Paso than LRU is from Las Cruces.
There is a nice little FBO run by former El Paso mayor Suzi Azar called Blue Feather
Aero. It's only been there a couple of years; I noticed that it's not listed
on Airnav.com.
http://www.bluefeatheraero.com
I'm a controller at ELP so if anyone has any questions about flying into the area
I can get you the answers.
Jim L. Cox
Just starting RV-8A emp kit.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Neal E Capt AU/PC <Neal.George(at)maxwell.af.mil> |
| Subject: | Lead counter weights |
Dave -
I filed and filed and filed and whittled and filed, all the while muttering
obscenities because the old style seems so much simpler...
Neal
RV-7 N8ZG (tanks)
RV-8 N998GM (emp)
>I had a hell of a time shaping the elevator counterweights this past
weekend, is there some easy trick to cut this stuff? How accurate does
the shape have to be?<
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EMAproducts(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Veterans ~ off subject |
To all Veterans:
It has become even more evident after the last few days there are many many
Veterans on this list.
I wish to thank all sincerely for their service to their country, regardless
of branch of service or duties.
Freedom is not Free, it has been paid for with many lives, injuries and
separation from loved ones.
Sincerely,
Elbie Mendenhall
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bobby Hester" <bhester(at)hopkinsville.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Parking Brakes? |
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Maureen & Bob Christensen" <mchriste(at)danvilletelco.net>
> To:
> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:49 (CDT)
> Subject: RV-List: Parking Brakes?
>
>
> Does anyone have a plan of source for parking brakes for a RV-8?
>
> Thanks,
> Bob
This might be useful: http://members.hopkinsville.net/bhester/pvpv1page.htm
-------
Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY
RV7A web site: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
| Subject: | Re: And now for something completely different |
Steve:
Why is the risk of light plane flying greater than the risk of airline flying?
A good question! Here are some observations I made as a SAR pilot a few years
ago.
If you throw in all forms of commercial aviation (without considering weighting
factors), the picture for commercial aviation looks a lot worse than when you
just look at airline flying. Small commercial operators and bush pilots have a
much worse safety record than the airlines, just like GA. This probably
reflects the kind of flying they do more so than it reflects the pilots
themselves. The GA category more closely resembles that end of commercial
aviation, and although I haven't seen the stats I suspect they would be much
closer. When I was in SAR, in Canada, a huge proportion of the accidents were
float planes, and many of those accidents were in the "stuff happens" category,
i.e. not necessarily something the pilot did grossly wrong, but more a
reflection of the environment.
However, many light plane accidents are the result of poor decisions by the
pilot. I suspect that happens more in light plane flying because of the lower
(average) level of knowledge and experience. We should not be too quick to
judge these pilots, though. Light-plane pilots often face decisions that are
just as difficult to make as those that airline pilots face, but with less
experience to guide them. And some decisions, especially weather decisions,
are harder when you fly an RV or C-172 than when you fly a jet. When you're
flying jet IFR, the weather limits are pretty clear, the forecast has to be
pretty far off before you run into problems, and almost certainly you can
divert to your alternate without trouble. You're above the weather most of the
time. When you're flying light-planes, and you're only VFR rated, there are a
lot of things that can mess up your flight that simply aren't factors for a
jet.
Off the top of my head, here are some of the (non-float-plane) accidents my
squadron investigated when I was doing SAR, and their probable causes.
* Heavily loaded Cardinal crashes in mountainous terrain. Probably
a downdraft forced it down. 2,000-hour instructor pilot. 4 fatal.
* Light single crashes in mountainous terrain, attempting to follow VOR airway
into IMC. 4 fatal.
* Navajo brought down by ice. De-icing system not operational but pilot
probably not aware of fault due to improper maintenance records. 1 fatal.
* Centurion engine failure leads to off-field forced landing. No injuries.
This is a small sample, but I think these are fairly typical of light-plane
accidents. The first two are clearly pilot error, the result of poor
decision-making. In both cases the pilot could have taken a different route
that would have avoided the problem. The Cardinal was also proably overloaded
-- if not legally, at least more so that was prudent for the terrain and
weather. It would be very unusual for a commercial jet operation to have an
accident like either of those, because they don't operate in that environment.
Whether or not airline pilots would be less likely to make the same mistakes as
these pilots under the same conditions is an open question, but my guess is
they would, based on the airline pilots I've flown with.
The Navajo pilot was qualified for the IFR flight, and the weather was within
the capabilities of his airplane. He didn't know the de-icing systems were
faulty, and I have no reason to suspect he would have made the trip had he
known. So this accident reflects the quality of the maintenance (and
maintenance procedures) of the operation he worked for. My guess is that this
is another area where the airlines are generally ahead.
The Centurion pilot did a fabulous job. He recognized the impending failure
(dropping oil pressure), made a mayday call with a position report, and made a
successful (i.e. walk-away) forced landing in very rough terrain. The SAR
airplane was airborne before he even hit the ground. So the issue here is the
lack of engine redundancy, a problem the airlines don't have to deal with.
---
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
| Subject: | Re: falling leaf |
Something not mentioned about the falling leaf is that it can be used to
improve your chances of surviving a forced landing in bad terrain. You ride
the falling leaf manoeuvre right to the ground. I'm not sure how well it would
work in an RV, but in most light planes it's supposed to give you a rate of
decent no worse than a parachute, and in some cases much better. (An
old-fashioned round parachute, that is.)
---
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hopperdhh(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: falling leaf |
In a message dated 11/16/04 2:20:39 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
tedd(at)vansairforce.org writes:
>
> Something not mentioned about the falling leaf is that it can be used to
> improve your chances of surviving a forced landing in bad terrain. You ride
> the falling leaf manoeuvre right to the ground. I'm not sure how well it
> would
> work in an RV, but in most light planes it's supposed to give you a rate of
> decent no worse than a parachute, and in some cases much better. (An
> old-fashioned round parachute, that is.)
>
> ---
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC, Canada
>
Ted,
Please explain this "falling leaf manoeuvre." I have tried something similar
from about 10 feet above the ground, and fell like a rock -- fortunately not
in my RV!
Dan Hopper
RV-7A
N766DH (Flying and landing since July)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Parking Brakes? |
Hi Bobby,
That is useful. Do you have any RV8 installation pictures?
I can kind of see where one might install it, but I'll be
happy to learn from someone else's experience!
Thanks,
Mickey
>> Does anyone have a plan of source for parking brakes for a RV-8?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bob
>
>This might be useful: http://members.hopkinsville.net/bhester/pvpv1page.htm
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Neal E Capt AU/PC <Neal.George(at)maxwell.af.mil> |
Listers -
Have any of you installed and flown with a Piper-style blade pitot?
Or a leading edge tube, as found on the AT-6?
Neal
Listers -
Have any of you installed and flown with a Piper-style blade
pitot?
Or a leading edge tube, as found on the AT-6?
Neal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Maureen & Bob Christensen" <mchriste(at)danvilletelco.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Parking Brakes? |
Thank Bobby . . . I found what I needed on Matco's website . . . I don't
know why I didn't think to look there?!
Thanks again,
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bobby Hester" <bhester(at)hopkinsville.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Parking Brakes?
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Maureen & Bob Christensen" <mchriste(at)danvilletelco.net>
> > To:
> > Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:49 (CDT)
> > Subject: RV-List: Parking Brakes?
> >
> >
> > Does anyone have a plan of source for parking brakes for a RV-8?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Bob
>
> This might be useful:
http://members.hopkinsville.net/bhester/pvpv1page.htm
>
> -------
> Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY
> RV7A web site: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chuck Weyant" <cweyant(at)chuckdirect.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lead counter weights |
And get one with the deepest throat you can find. Believe me, you won't
regret it!
Chuck Weyant
----- Original Message ----- >
> I would suggest that you purchase a band saw.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "steve zicree" <szicree(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: And now for something completely different |
> 1. Identify an Industry Risk in flying experimental amatuer built
aircraft.
> Things we see lots of pilots do that is risky.
Not use checklists
> 2. Rate that risk. 1-10
Hard to judge, but could be high depending on item missed. Canopy latch or
fuel level are biggies.
> 3. Rate the reward. 1-10
The reward of not using them seems limited to convenience, and perhaps
looking cool. I sometimes get a look of concern from my pax when I break out
the checklist prior to takeoff, but oh well.
> 4. Suggest a mitigating strategy.
Explore options for making checklists easier to use, such as electronic
versions that read the items straight into your ears.
Steve Zicree
====================================================================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: And now for something completely different |
My guess is that they have standardized procedures that they live and
die (not literally) by. We in GA tend to be more flexible in our
decision making process. This can be good and bad. "I've made this
approach when it was below minumums 5 times before, I can make it one
more time... Say, what's that mountain goat doing way up here in the
clouds?"
You know what I mean anyway.
Oh and by the way, is this the right place for an argument? (Only
Pythonophiles will understand that.)
steve zicree wrote:
>
>I've often wondered, and been asked by many, why the safety record for G.A. is
so much worse than that for commercial carriers.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Forced Landing. (long) |
Let me add to the speculation with a true story ....
Used to be part of a club with a Cessna 150. Similar history and symptoms:
rough engine, intermittent, responded to reduced power settings, many flights
with no symptoms, tear downs of carb, etc. etc.. End result was an eventual
forced landing. The culprit.....
... an insect building a nest in the vent. Must have been at it for a long
time.
Just one more possibility.
John McDonnell
November 13, 2004 - November 16, 2004
RV-Archive.digest.vol-qb