RV-List Archive Browser

**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2008
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Navaid Devices 'contactability'?
Anyone know what's up with Navaid Devices? I've tried calling them from around 1:30PM until 9:00 PM yesterday & again this afternoon & there's no answer to either their listed voice line nor their fax line (both ring, but no answer). I've been calling (423) 267-3311 - Office (423) 756-6154 - Fax as listed on their web site & on-line phone directories. I need a servo rescued from 'stupid installer tricks' & I hate shipping it when I can't even contact them. Thanks, Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Oil Filter Cutters
Date: Apr 22, 2008
From: "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Don't buy one, borrow mine. ________________________________ From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of John Jessen Sent: Mon 4/21/2008 2:48 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Oil Filter Cutters What type? Thanks ________________________________ From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Fasching Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 2:23 PM To: rv-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RV-List: Oil Filter Cutters I see oil filter cutters advertised for as low as $45. I have one, it works just fine. FWIW ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles Heathco" <cheathco(at)cox.net>
Subject: Garmin 496
Date: Apr 23, 2008
Recently i ran across an ad for renting then buying these units, cant find again but wanted to get some input from anyone on the list that has a 496. I have a 296 that I like, only thing im realy interested in is the advertised superior terrain depiction and having the pvt airstrips shown. Charles Heathco Do bnot archive ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bruno <rv4(at)videotron.ca>
Subject: Navaids Device
Date: Apr 23, 2008
Hello Charlie Keep calling them and you will reach them eventually.Horace is getting old but he still provides a very good and very inexpensive service. Don't be in a rush to get your servo back , it took 2 months to get my AP-1 back but it works as advertised and cost $34.00 to repair..try to get a price like that in any avionics shop these days... Cheers Bruno RV-4 C-GDBH (Flying ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone know what's up with Navaid Devices? I've tried calling them from around 1:30PM until 9:00 PM yesterday & again this afternoon & there's no answer to either their listed voice line nor their fax line (both ring, but no answer). I've been calling (423) 267-3311 - Office (423) 756-6154 - Fax as listed on their web site & on-line phone directories. I need a servo rescued from 'stupid installer tricks' & I hate shipping it when I can't even contact them. Thanks, Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 23, 2008
From: John Morgensen <john(at)morgensen.com>
Subject: Re: Garmin 496
I bought a 496 after a presentation by Garmin at Oshkosh 2006. Compared to the 396, the processor was 5 times faster and the terrain granularity was 10 times finer.(numbers approximate) If you tell me which pvt airstrips, I can check and get back to you. John Morgensen Nevada Charles Heathco wrote: > Recently i ran across an ad for renting then buying these units, cant > find again but wanted to get some input from anyone on the list that > has a 496. I have a 296 that I like, only thing im realy interested in > is the advertised superior terrain depiction and having the pvt > airstrips shown. Charles Heathco Do bnot archive > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Garmin 496
Date: Apr 23, 2008
From: John Jessen <n212pj(at)gmail.com>
I have both. I decided to keep the 296 as a unit for the car and as my backup in the plane. 496 is a better unit in that it's refresh rate is faster, has more, but not all of the pvt strips, has weather and the taxiway information. Worth the price differential in my book. But, why rent? Is it because you'd use it that seldom, sporadically. John Jessen _____ From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Heathco Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 5:25 AM Subject: RV-List: Garmin 496 Recently i ran across an ad for renting then buying these units, cant find again but wanted to get some input from anyone on the list that has a 496. I have a 296 that I like, only thing im realy interested in is the advertised superior terrain depiction and having the pvt airstrips shown. Charles Heathco Do bnot archive ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 23, 2008
From: dave(at)coltnet.net
Subject: Anywhere Map Travel Companion (ATC) GPS
Listers Did anyone have the opportunity to look at the Anywhere Map Travel Companion (ATC) while at Sun n' Fun. http://www.anywheremap.com/ What are your impressions? It appears to very capable for the price. Thanks for your input? Dave RV-8 tailkit the decade build. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 23, 2008
From: Bobby Hester <bobbyhester(at)newwavecomm.net>
Subject: Re: Garmin 496
Sounds like you want the new Garmin 495 - just like the 496 but no XM weather/radio and no preloaded city select maps. I'm not using one but saw them at Sun-n-Fun ---- Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY Visit my flying RV7A web page: http://home.newwavecomm.net/bobbyhester/MyFlyingRV7A.htm Charles Heathco wrote: > Recently i ran across an ad for renting then buying these units, cant > find again but wanted to get some input from anyone on the list that > has a 496. I have a 296 that I like, only thing im realy interested in > is the advertised superior terrain depiction and having the pvt > airstrips shown. Charles Heathco Do bnot archive > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Anywhere Map Travel Companion (ATC) GPS
Date: Apr 23, 2008
I saw it at SnF on Thursday and went back to the booth on Saturday to get more information. The booth was closed for the day, so I didn't get the full story. I'm interested in the ATC with XM weather and am wary of the multi-box and bluetooth approach AnywhereMap uses. Multiple boxes often means weird compatibility issues and bluetooth isn't nearly as reliable as a hard connection. Where this plays out for me is that I need a device that is as reliable as a hammer. Previous AnywhereMap products have had great feature sets, but have been somewhat problematic from a user's standpoint. I need to hear a long string of great reviews of the ATC with weather before I will seriously consider it. Personally I'm holding out for a Lowrance product with XM weather, but if they don't come to the table soon, I'm probably headed to the Garmin booth... Kyle Boatright 2001 RV-6 ----- Original Message ----- From: <dave(at)coltnet.net> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: RV-List: Anywhere Map Travel Companion (ATC) GPS > > > Listers > > Did anyone have the opportunity to look at the Anywhere Map Travel > Companion (ATC) while at Sun n' Fun. > http://www.anywheremap.com/ > > What are your impressions? It appears to very capable for the price. > > Thanks for your input? > > Dave > RV-8 tailkit the decade build. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Robertson <mrobert569(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: RV-8 Wing and Tail kits for sale
Date: Apr 23, 2008
To All, It is with great disappointment that I have to offer for sale my completed empenage and wing kits. The empenage is completely done and the wings are completed except for riveting the two bottom skins on each wing. They also have two Duckworth landing lights installed and a pitot tube mount install ed. You can ask anybody about my worksmanship. I guarantee you will not b e disappointed. The reason for selling is the need to complete my new home. I can always g et another kit later. The Van's price for these is $7680.00 for the standard kits. These are don e with extras. I am asking $7500.00 firm. They are in storage and available for viewing a t my home in Spokane, WA. Give a call for questions. Mike Robertson (509) 998-1793 (509) 926-9368 _________________________________________________________________ In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr esh_realtime_042008 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 23, 2008
From: Mike Divan <n343fd(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Anywhere Map Travel Companion (ATC) GPS
I Googled the unit Anywhere map uses and found the reviews dismal to say the least. I agree I am holding out for Lorwance and XM WX (I like my 600C from them) but if they don't cough up soon (real soon) then it is the Garmin for me also. Mike Divan N64GH - RV6,flying :) SLOW 7 Builder :( EAA - 577486 FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS! ----- Original Message ---- From: Kyle Boatright <kboatright1(at)comcast.net> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 6:17:06 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Anywhere Map Travel Companion (ATC) GPS I saw it at SnF on Thursday and went back to the booth on Saturday to get more information. The booth was closed for the day, so I didn't get the full story. I'm interested in the ATC with XM weather and am wary of the multi-box and bluetooth approach AnywhereMap uses. Multiple boxes often means weird compatibility issues and bluetooth isn't nearly as reliable as a hard connection. Where this plays out for me is that I need a device that is as reliable as a hammer. Previous AnywhereMap products have had great feature sets, but have been somewhat problematic from a user's standpoint. I need to hear a long string of great reviews of the ATC with weather before I will seriously consider it. Personally I'm holding out for a Lowrance product with XM weather, but if they don't come to the table soon, I'm probably headed to the Garmin booth... Kyle Boatright 2001 RV-6 ----- Original Message ----- From: <dave(at)coltnet.net> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: RV-List: Anywhere Map Travel Companion (ATC) GPS > > > Listers > > Did anyone have the opportunity to look at the Anywhere Map Travel > Companion (ATC) while at Sun n' Fun. > http://www.anywheremap.com/ > > What are your impressions? It appears to very capable for the price. > > Thanks for your input? > > Dave > RV-8 tailkit the decade build. > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2008
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Wiggly Cotter pins
One of my four engine mount bolt cotter pins wiggles a bit - it is set like the other three. I've re-done it a bunch of times - so either it is technique for this particular bolt...or there's something wrong with the setup. I'm using the same size pin for all four bolts. I'm really thinking it is my technique. According to the 43.13 the head should fit snug - which I take to mean that they shouldn't wiggle. Conceptually, I think the wiggling could lead to friction erosion of the pin - with a potential for failure. Maybe, I need to do this one using the other method for setting them - I've been trying to bend one leg over the top and the other down - I may try the 'anchor' method as shown in the 43.13. Somebody tell me that I'm not out of my mind with my anal-retentiveness..... Ralph Capen RV6AQB Slider N822AR @ N06 Knocking out the million little things..... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2008
From: Dave <dave(at)coltnet.net>
Subject: Anywhere Map Travel Companion (ATC) GPS
> Thanks for the responses regarding the Anywhere Map Travel Companion (ATC) GPS. I guess it is new enough on the market that their haven't been alot of opinions formed yet. It sure seems to have a lot of features for the money. I understand the bluetooth connection can be an issue, but I am not looking for that feature as I will be using it as a portable unit in a (sorry to mention this on this list :-)) Cessna 140 for mostly local flights. Thanks Dave RV-8 tailkit ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2008
From: "David Leonard" <wdleonard(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Wiggly Cotter pins
> > Somebody tell me that I'm not out of my mind with my > anal-retentiveness..... > > Ralph Capen > RV6AQB Slider N822AR @ N06 > Knocking out the million little things..... > > Unfortunately Ralph, I think you are out or your mind with A.R. Sorry. They have rehab you know. :-) -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2008
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Wiggly Cotter pins
Thanks David.......I'll start the twelve-step program right after I get flying....... -----Original Message----- >From: David Leonard <wdleonard(at)gmail.com> >Sent: Apr 24, 2008 10:19 AM >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Wiggly Cotter pins > >> >> Somebody tell me that I'm not out of my mind with my >> anal-retentiveness..... >> >> Ralph Capen >> RV6AQB Slider N822AR @ N06 >> Knocking out the million little things..... >> >> >> >Unfortunately Ralph, I think you are out or your mind with A.R. Sorry. >They have rehab you know. :-) >-- >David Leonard > >Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net >http://RotaryRoster.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2008
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: [RV Builders] Re: Wiggly Cotter pins
Here's what I got from another list - I'll probably go with this one as it cures the issue that I have......... -----Forwarded Message----- >From: rhodeseng <rhodeseng(at)yahoo.com> >Sent: Apr 24, 2008 9:17 AM >To: RV7A(at)yahoogroups.com >Subject: [RV Builders] Re: Wiggly Cotter pins > >put some RTV on it and move forward > >cary > > >--- In RV7A(at)yahoogroups.com, "Ralph E. Capen" wrote: >> >> One of my four engine mount bolt cotter pins wiggles a bit - it is >set like the other three. >> >> I've re-done it a bunch of times - so either it is technique for >this particular bolt...or there's something wrong with the setup. >I'm using the same size pin for all four bolts. I'm really thinking >it is my technique. >> >> According to the 43.13 the head should fit snug - which I take to >mean that they shouldn't wiggle. Conceptually, I think the wiggling >could lead to friction erosion of the pin - with a potential for >failure. >> >> Maybe, I need to do this one using the other method for setting >them - I've been trying to bend one leg over the top and the other >down - I may try the 'anchor' method as shown in the 43.13. >> >> Somebody tell me that I'm not out of my mind with my anal- >retentiveness..... >> >> Ralph Capen >> RV6AQB Slider N822AR @ N06 >> Knocking out the million little things..... >> > > >------------------------------------ > >Want more RV news? Sign up for the RV Builder's Hotline. It's free! >http://rvhotline.expercraft.comYahoo! Groups Links > ><*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV7A/ > ><*> Your email settings: > Individual Email | Traditional > ><*> To change settings online go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV7A/join > (Yahoo! ID required) > ><*> To change settings via email: > mailto:RV7A-digest(at)yahoogroups.com > mailto:RV7A-fullfeatured(at)yahoogroups.com > ><*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > RV7A-unsubscribe(at)yahoogroups.com > ><*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2008
From: Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Wiggly Cotter pins
Ralph, I concur with Carey's suggestion to secure the cotter pin with RTV. The most likely cause of the loose fit of the pin will be the security hole drilled into that one bolt. It is probably larger than the other 3 bolts. Charlie Kuss --- On Thu, 4/24/08, Ralph E. Capen wrote: > From: Ralph E. Capen <recapen(at)earthlink.net> > Subject: RV-List: Wiggly Cotter pins > To: "rv-list" , "lycoming engine list" > Date: Thursday, April 24, 2008, 8:33 AM > > > One of my four engine mount bolt cotter pins wiggles a bit > - it is set like the other three. > > I've re-done it a bunch of times - so either it is > technique for this particular bolt...or there's > something wrong with the setup. I'm using the same > size pin for all four bolts. I'm really thinking it is > my technique. > > According to the 43.13 the head should fit snug - which I > take to mean that they shouldn't wiggle. Conceptually, > I think the wiggling could lead to friction erosion of the > pin - with a potential for failure. > > Maybe, I need to do this one using the other method for > setting them - I've been trying to bend one leg over > the top and the other down - I may try the 'anchor' > method as shown in the 43.13. > > Somebody tell me that I'm not out of my mind with my > anal-retentiveness..... > > Ralph Capen > RV6AQB Slider N822AR @ N06 > Knocking out the million little things..... > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim" <jjewell(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: Wiggly Cotter pins
Date: Apr 24, 2008
Hi Ralph, A little dab of some RTV or some such sealer should stop the rattling cotter pin well enough. Of course anyone seeing that little dab of RTV will immediately Know for sure that you are out of your mind with your anal-retentiveness....{[;-) Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: David Leonard To: rv-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 7:19 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Wiggly Cotter pins Somebody tell me that I'm not out of my mind with my anal-retentiveness..... Ralph Capen RV6AQB Slider N822AR @ N06 Knocking out the million little things..... Unfortunately Ralph, I think you are out or your mind with A.R. Sorry. They have rehab you know. :-) -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 4/24/2008 7:24 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Fasching" <n1cxo320(at)salidaco.com>
Subject: Re: Anywhere Map Travel Companion (ATC) GPS
Date: Apr 24, 2008
I don't know what dismal reviews you saw, but here's an opposite viewpoint. I have been using Anywhere Map for several years. As with any company there have been 'growing pains' and some bugs in new software issues. Their latest seems to be a solid software platform. I use Anywhere Map with XMWX and it is absolutely solid and trouble free. I get almost immediate weather data from XM and the full color moving map is quite nice. I use different GPS (paired to the Anywhere Map) units to control the autopilot and hands-off flying using their system is a real joy. One thing to look at is data updates. For around $90/year I get aeronautical data updates every 28-days and no longer buy sectional maps. Software updates to AWM are also without cost. There seems to be several moving map units on the market all with their virtues. You pays yer money, and takes yer choice as they say. But Anywhere Map is, in my opinion, a very good value. FWIW ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2008
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Anywhere Map Travel Companion (ATC) GPS
John Fasching wrote: > I don't know what dismal reviews you saw, but here's an opposite > viewpoint. > > I have been using Anywhere Map for several years. As with any company > there have been 'growing pains' and some bugs in new software issues. I believe the "dismal review" was in reference to the new PDA unit AWM is selling, not the software itself. Sam Buchanan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2008
From: Dave <dave(at)coltnet.net>
Subject: Anywhere Map Travel Companion (ATC) GPS
> I believe the "dismal review" was in reference to the new PDA unit AWM > is selling, not the software itself. > Sam Buchanan Sam, Was that the new ATC unit that was just released that got the dismal reviews? Thanks Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vinnfizz(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 24, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiggly Cotter pins
Some say that is anal attentiveness! Makes for a safe and beautiful airplane! Ed **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2008
From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Anywhere Map Travel Companion (ATC) GPS
Dave wrote: > > > >> I believe the "dismal review" was in reference to the new PDA unit AWM >> is selling, not the software itself. >> Sam Buchanan > > > Sam, > > Was that the new ATC unit that was just released that got the dismal > reviews? > > Thanks > > Dave Dave, I haven't read the reviews and don't know anything about the new unit (a customized iPaq 310). I was just responding to the poster who was under the impression the less than favorable reviews referenced were concerning the software. Some Googling will surely shed some light on this device. Sam Buchanan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2008
From: Mike Divan <n343fd(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Anywhere Map Travel Companion (ATC) GPS
Sorry I was not more clear the HP (Ipaq 310 I believe) unit not the Anyware map is what got the dismal reviews that I saw. Also I do not believe the new HP unit can interface with an AP. Here are some of the places I found reviews. Actually there more reviews out not then when I first looked. It seems the route calculation is what most people are not happy with. Not sure how that will affect how the Anywhere software works. Bottom line sorry I was not clear on what and where I saw the bad reviews. http://review.zdnet.com/navigation/hp-ipaq-310-travel/4505-3430_16-32595205.html http://reviews.cnet.com/car-gps-navigation/hp-ipaq-310-travel/4505-3430_7-32595205.html http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/8284.html http://www.hhcmag.com/reviews/hp_ipaq_310/index.htm http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/ipaq310.php Mike Divan N64GH - RV6,flying :) SLOW 7 Builder :( EAA - 577486 FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS! ----- Original Message ---- From: John Fasching <n1cxo320(at)salidaco.com> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 8:26:59 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Anywhere Map Travel Companion (ATC) GPS I don't know what dismal reviews you saw, but here's an opposite viewpoint. I have been using Anywhere Map for several years. As with any company there have been 'growing pains' and some bugs in new software issues. Their latest seems to be a solid software platform. I use Anywhere Map with XMWX and it is absolutely solid and trouble free. I get almost immediate weather data from XM and the full color moving map is quite nice. I use different GPS (paired to the Anywhere Map) units to control the autopilot and hands-off flying using their system is a real joy. One thing to look at is data updates. For around $90/year I get aeronautical data updates every 28-days and no longer buy sectional maps. Software updates to AWM are also without cost. There seems to be several moving map units on the market all with their virtues. You pays yer money, and takes yer choice as they say. But Anywhere Map is, in my opinion, a very good value. FWIW Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dan Charrois <danlist(at)syz.com>
Subject: Current crop of pitot tubes
Date: Apr 25, 2008
Hi all. I'm working on an RV-10 and am at the point now of considering what kind of pitot tube to put in the thing. The bent aluminum tube idea, though functional, doesn't really appeal to me. Though I'm not an IFR pilot at the moment, I don't intend to remain that way indefinitely, and I'd like to future-proof the plane as much as practical. So I'm looking at putting in a heated pitot. Up until now I've been assuming I'd go with a Gretz pitot - I like the idea of its internal temperature regulation rather than just running at maximum current draw the whole time it's on. But of course now that I'm actually ready to get one it appears as though they're not currently being manufactured and I haven't found anywhere that has them in stock. So what other options could anyone out there suggest? Thanks! Dan -- Syzygy Research & Technology Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada Phone: 780-961-2213 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Leffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: Current crop of pitot tubes
Date: Apr 25, 2008
I just purchased one from Aircraft Spruce a couple weeks ago, but they appear to be out now. This was posted on the Gretz site: NOTICE: Gretz Aero, LLC, has been forced to stop production of this wonderful product, the GA-1000. The reasons are two-fold. First, I cannot keep up with the current demand for the GA-1000 and second, the company that has been providing the composite molding material has drastically raised their prices and minimum order requirements. I have found another company who can provide the same molding material at a reduced cost and lower minimum order quantities. However, at this point I feel the time has come for me to cut back on my current Gretz Aero workload. I enjoy developing new aviation products. Selling this part of my business would allow me the time to bring some of my ideas into product. I fully expect to continue with the mounting bracket part of the business. If anyone is interested in purchasing the GA-1000 and GA-500 part of my business, I would be willing to negotiate. I can be reached at 208-834-2312 or 208-863-7045. This is too bad. This was a great product. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Charrois Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 4:29 AM Subject: RV-List: Current crop of pitot tubes Hi all. I'm working on an RV-10 and am at the point now of considering what kind of pitot tube to put in the thing. The bent aluminum tube idea, though functional, doesn't really appeal to me. Though I'm not an IFR pilot at the moment, I don't intend to remain that way indefinitely, and I'd like to future-proof the plane as much as practical. So I'm looking at putting in a heated pitot. Up until now I've been assuming I'd go with a Gretz pitot - I like the idea of its internal temperature regulation rather than just running at maximum current draw the whole time it's on. But of course now that I'm actually ready to get one it appears as though they're not currently being manufactured and I haven't found anywhere that has them in stock. So what other options could anyone out there suggest? Thanks! Dan -- Syzygy Research & Technology Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada Phone: 780-961-2213 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wiggly Cotter pins
Date: Apr 25, 2008
From: "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
I find wiggly cotter pins a lot doing EAA Tech Inspections. There is no standard on experimentals, the owner/builder sets the standard. The AC43-13 wants them tight. The airliners you fly on are all tight. The airline Quality Control Inspector will fail any that are wiggly. We do that by pulling the head down into the fastener, bending the legs against the object and often smacking them with the handle of our pliers. QC always looks for wigglies, correct leg length of cotter pins, correct hardware lash up and often on critical items like engine mounts and landing gear confirm NO Wigglies by using torque seal paint. I always point out the wiggly ones on engine mounts. Guess I must be an AR Tech. John Cox From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Leonard Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 7:20 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Wiggly Cotter pins Somebody tell me that I'm not out of my mind with my anal-retentiveness..... Ralph Capen RV6AQB Slider N822AR @ N06 Knocking out the million little things..... Unfortunately Ralph, I think you are out or your mind with A.R. Sorry. They have rehab you know. :-) -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Gill" <wgill10(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Current crop of pitot tubes
Date: Apr 25, 2008
The chrome Gretz mount with the Dynon heated pitot or Dynon's heated pitot with angle-of-attack looks very nice...and works great. Bill RV-7 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Charrois Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 3:29 AM Subject: RV-List: Current crop of pitot tubes Hi all. I'm working on an RV-10 and am at the point now of considering what kind of pitot tube to put in the thing. The bent aluminum tube idea, though functional, doesn't really appeal to me. Though I'm not an IFR pilot at the moment, I don't intend to remain that way indefinitely, and I'd like to future-proof the plane as much as practical. So I'm looking at putting in a heated pitot. Up until now I've been assuming I'd go with a Gretz pitot - I like the idea of its internal temperature regulation rather than just running at maximum current draw the whole time it's on. But of course now that I'm actually ready to get one it appears as though they're not currently being manufactured and I haven't found anywhere that has them in stock. So what other options could anyone out there suggest? Thanks! Dan -- Syzygy Research & Technology Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada Phone: 780-961-2213 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2008
From: "Corey Crawford" <corey.crawford(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Current crop of pitot tubes
Does anyone know if the Dynon pitot with angle-of-attack would connect to/work with an AOA Sport? I'd love to avoid drilling any holes in my QB wings .. -- Corey Crawford RV-7A - Denver, CO On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 10:57 AM, William Gill wrote: > > The chrome Gretz mount with the Dynon heated pitot or Dynon's heated > pitot with angle-of-attack looks very nice...and works great. > > Bill > RV-7 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "mark vultaggio" <mvultaggio(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: geared drive ls1 engine
Date: Apr 25, 2008
Hello, I am a lurker of the list and woudl like to hear any thoughts on this firewall forward kit being offered. what are the issues to be considered? I saw it at sun n fun and it looks interesting. Thanks Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: geared drive ls1 engine
Date: Apr 25, 2008
Mark, no attachments on the engine of interest. Do you have a web page or link? Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: mark vultaggio To: rv-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 4:10 PM Subject: RV-List: geared drive ls1 engine Hello, I am a lurker of the list and woudl like to hear any thoughts on this firewall forward kit being offered. what are the issues to be considered? I saw it at sun n fun and it looks interesting. Thanks Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Lee" <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: geared drive ls1 engine
Date: Apr 25, 2008
It would help to provide a website. However, I personally would never use a geared engine. It has to run at a very high RPM and may have significant operational issues. I would not buy a plane with such an engine so if that sentiment is widespread you would pay dearly if you ever decide to sell or your market would be very small. Ron Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: mark vultaggio To: rv-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:10 PM Subject: RV-List: geared drive ls1 engine Hello, I am a lurker of the list and woudl like to hear any thoughts on this firewall forward kit being offered. what are the issues to be considered? I saw it at sun n fun and it looks interesting. Thanks Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Garry" <garrys(at)tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: geared drive ls1 engine
Date: Apr 25, 2008
Ron, all Rotax aircraft engines are geared to the prop. They have been running successfully for over 20 years and virtually all LSA planes are using the Rotax 912 "geared" engine.........even Van's RV12. What "operational issues" do you refer to? Garry Stout RV7A, Tampa, FL ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Lee To: rv-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 5:38 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: geared drive ls1 engine It would help to provide a website. However, I personally would never use a geared engine. It has to run at a very high RPM and may have significant operational issues. I would not buy a plane with such an engine so if that sentiment is widespread you would pay dearly if you ever decide to sell or your market would be very small. Ron Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: mark vultaggio To: rv-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:10 PM Subject: RV-List: geared drive ls1 engine Hello, I am a lurker of the list and woudl like to hear any thoughts on this firewall forward kit being offered. what are the issues to be considered? I saw it at sun n fun and it looks interesting. Thanks Mark href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Current crop of pitot tubes
Date: Apr 25, 2008
You need to match the pressure source (i.e. the holes, either on the pitot tube, or the wing) to the sensor. So, if you want the Dynon pitot, then you need to use their EFIS to calculate the AOA. If you want the AOA Sport system, you need to put the holes where they tell you to. This is not a plug and play system, where you can mix and match pressure source and sensor, as there are no agreed upon standards for the pressure source. Kevin Horton On 25 Apr 2008, at 18:23, Corey Crawford wrote: > Does anyone know if the Dynon pitot with angle-of-attack would > connect to/work with an AOA Sport? I'd love to avoid drilling any > holes in my QB wings .. > > -- > Corey Crawford > RV-7A - Denver, CO > > > On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 10:57 AM, William Gill > wrote: > > The chrome Gretz mount with the Dynon heated pitot or Dynon's heated > pitot with angle-of-attack looks very nice...and works great. > > Bill > RV-7 > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "SteinAir, Inc." <stein(at)steinair.com>
Subject: geared drive ls1 engine
Date: Apr 25, 2008
Hi Mark, For any product that life/limb/safety depends on I'd ask the following questions: 1) What are the performance numbers when installed on the airplane you are selling/marketing it for - and I'm talking REAL WORLD performance/flight numbers. Not "calculated" type numbers? 2) How many hours are on your test RV-10 or any aircraft for that matter (since you're selling and engine package for an RV-10 it must have at least been test flown)? 3) Is your company capitolized enough to handle liability insurance, warranty, etc.. 4) How many have been sold, installed and flying on the airframe that you are marketing it for? 5) What are the approzimate total fleet hours for your engine? 6) Are the funds/deposits held in escrow in case of a refund or used to fund the ongoing business....if no escrow is the business funded off of peoples deposits? I don't mean to sound negative because I think Mr.Warren is a brilliant engineer. That being said, I really get leery about companies marketing stuff for airframes which they've done little to no flight testing on. Next, having been burnt for many thousands of $$'s over the years by well intentioned and also good engineers, I want to see what kind of financial health the company is in....especially when someone is charging 10's of thousands of $$'s for a product and company that literally have zero history. There have been a lot of alternative engine designers selling the next panacea of products...some very well funded and some not so well funded. Note Thielert just went bankrupt in the past day or two and I'm sure with their many millions they too thought they were capitolized well enough...... I do wish him well and like to see people developing alternative products, but as I said before I get really nervous when people are already selling something specifically that has never flown. Perhaps I sound negative and that's not my intention. Those are just serious questions I'd ask any supplier...be it props, engines, PSRU's , fuel injection systems, ignitions, etc.. My 2 cents as usual! Cheers, Stein -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of mark vultaggio Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 3:10 PM To: rv-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RV-List: geared drive ls1 engine Hello, I am a lurker of the list and woudl like to hear any thoughts on this firewall forward kit being offered. what are the issues to be considered? I saw it at sun n fun and it looks interesting. Thanks Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 26, 2008
From: <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Current crop of pitot tubes
Before I make my two suggestions here is why you should not install one. Deviation for Vans plans will add weight, cost and build time. Yes you are right you don't need a heated pitot as a VFR pilot. In fact you don't need one for an IFR plane either (please read the regs before you dispute this). As a pilot with over 12,000 hrs and many 1000's of yours in IMC you can't get icing unless you are in cloud or in freezing precipitation and the temp is below freezing. Very simple no mosture no ice. No freezing or sub-freezing temp no ice. Avoid one or both no ice. So you get into icing in your IFR RV-10 when you get your rating. FIRST you should have your ticket taken back since you should NOT be in icing. You have no business being in it, and if you wounder into it, you should get out of it ASAP, climb, descend or 180 degree. If you collect ice on your airframe that you see, you are in icing conditions and now have violated FAR's and also common sense. My point is do you really need a heated pitot? No. Run some wires out there, but leave it off. So what if you pitot gets blocked, you loose what airspeed? Well you have GPS ground speed. However some "experimental EFIS" do use airspeed or change in airspeed (ie acceleration) to resolve some accelerometer error. Even still they work with out airspeed I am told (Dynon). If you must have a heated pitot, Dynon makes one for their EFIS with AOA. http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D180_Feature_AOA.html And these guys make a heated version for experimental's: http://www.gretzaero.com/ They both have some interesting temp control deal which is nice to keep from burning it out if you leave it on. Your other choice is ACS or some salvage yard Cessna or Piper heated pitot, which are old and tired. Bottom line its going to be about $500 of STUFF sitting out on your wing when you get it all wired with CB and a few pounds more. Cheers George ************************************************************************************* From: Dan Charrois <danlist(at)syz.com> Subject: RV-List: Current crop of pitot tubes Hi all. I'm working on an RV-10 and am at the point now of considering what kind of pitot tube to put in the thing. The bent aluminum tube idea, though functional, doesn't really appeal to me. Though I'm not an IFR pilot at the moment, I don't intend to remain that way indefinitely, and I'd like to future-proof the plane as much as practical. So I'm looking at putting in a heated pitot. Up until now I've been assuming I'd go with a Gretz pitot - I like the idea of its internal temperature regulation rather than just running at maximum current draw the whole time it's on. But of course now that I'm actually ready to get one it appears as though they're not currently being manufactured and I haven't found anywhere that has them in stock. So what other options could anyone out there suggest? Thanks! Dan -- Syzygy Research & Technology Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada Phone: 780-961-2213 ************************************************************************************* --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Leffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: Re: Current crop of pitot tubes
Date: Apr 26, 2008
Unfortunately, Gretz Aero has suspended manufacturing of their pitot. Warren has posted information on his web site. Both ACS and Stein appear to be out of stock. From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 6:15 AM Subject: RV-List: Re: Current crop of pitot tubes Before I make my two suggestions here is why you should not install one. Deviation for Vans plans will add weight, cost and build time. Yes you are right you don't need a heated pitot as a VFR pilot. In fact you don't need one for an IFR plane either (please read the regs before you dispute this). As a pilot with over 12,000 hrs and many 1000's of yours in IMC you can't get icing unless you are in cloud or in freezing precipitation and the temp is below freezing. Very simple no mosture no ice. No freezing or sub-freezing temp no ice. Avoid one or both no ice. So you get into icing in your IFR RV-10 when you get your rating. FIRST you should have your ticket taken back since you should NOT be in icing. You have no business being in it, and if you wounder into it, you should get out of it ASAP, climb, descend or 180 degree. If you collect ice on your airframe that you see, you are in icing conditions and now have violated FAR's and also common sense. My point is do you really need a heated pitot? No. Run some wires out there, but leave it off. So what if you pitot gets blocked, you loose what airspeed? Well you have GPS ground speed. However some "experimental EFIS" do use airspeed or change in airspeed (ie acceleration) to resolve some accelerometer error. Even still they work with out airspeed I am told (Dynon). If you must have a heated pitot, Dynon makes one for their EFIS with AOA. http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D180_Feature_AOA.html And these guys make a heated version for experimental's: http://www.gretzaero.com/ They both have some interesting temp control deal which is nice to keep from burning it out if you leave it on. Your other choice is ACS or some salvage yard Cessna or Piper heated pitot, which are old and tired. Bottom line its going to be about $500 of STUFF sitting out on your wing when you get it all wired with CB and a few pounds more. Cheers George **************************************************************************** ********* From: Dan Charrois <danlist(at)syz.com> Subject: RV-List: Current crop of pitot tubes Hi all. I'm working on an RV-10 and am at the point now of considering what kind of pitot tube to put in the thing. The bent aluminum tube idea, though functional, doesn't really appeal to me. Though I'm not an IFR pilot at the moment, I don't intend to remain that way indefinitely, and I'd like to future-proof the plane as much as practical. So I'm looking at putting in a heated pitot. Up until now I've been assuming I'd go with a Gretz pitot - I like the idea of its internal temperature regulation rather than just running at maximum current draw the whole time it's on. But of course now that I'm actually ready to get one it appears as though they're not currently being manufactured and I haven't found anywhere that has them in stock. So what other options could anyone out there suggest? Thanks! Dan -- Syzygy Research & Technology Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada Phone: 780-961-2213 **************************************************************************** ********* _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tim Bryan" <n616tb(at)btsapps.com>
Subject: Re: Current crop of pitot tubes
Date: Apr 26, 2008
George, I almost really hate to post this considering all things but I cannot agree with your assessment in whole. I also am an IFR pilot and you are right but. You cannot always guarantee you will not be in ice just because you don't want to. I have flown into clouds on an IFR flight plan with no expected icing. I did not have icing equipment but flew right into an ice situation where it built up very quickly and then quit (about 15 seconds). I had two choices: either turn around and fly back through it or keep going and hope to avoid any more. With ice on the prop, wings, pitot, and windscreen I had a big problem. I was flying a C170 B with the 180 HP engine and constant speed prop. I was thankful to have the big engine because I lost 500 feet altitude (was given lower by ATC) and was still flying at very low airspeed. If I remember right I was pitched up to about 75 MPH just to maintain my altitude. Thankfully I did have a heated pitot because my airspeed indication was critical. It was one thing I badly needed and thankfully had. After crossing the Big Bear mountains, I was given a descent into the palm springs area. Even well after getting out of the clouds I was IFR due to the ice on the windscreen. It shed off much later as I got down below 4000'. The short of this is, if one is going to fly IFR, whether required or not and even if not expected to get into ice, a heated pitot is a smart choice. I have the Gretz in my RV-6. Call me stupid if you want, but I was really glad I had it, and never intended to experience the opportunity to need it. Tim RV-6 IFR with heated pitot. _____ From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 5:15 AM Subject: RV-List: Re: Current crop of pitot tubes Before I make my two suggestions here is why you should not install one. Deviation for Vans plans will add weight, cost and build time. Yes you are right you don't need a heated pitot as a VFR pilot. In fact you don't need one for an IFR plane either (please read the regs before you dispute this). As a pilot with over 12,000 hrs and many 1000's of yours in IMC you can't get icing unless you are in cloud or in freezing precipitation and the temp is below freezing. Very simple no mosture no ice. No freezing or sub-freezing temp no ice. Avoid one or both no ice. So you get into icing in your IFR RV-10 when you get your rating. FIRST you should have your ticket taken back since you should NOT be in icing. You have no business being in it, and if you wounder into it, you should get out of it ASAP, climb, descend or 180 degree. If you collect ice on your airframe that you see, you are in icing conditions and now have violated FAR's and also common sense. My point is do you really need a heated pitot? No. Run some wires out there, but leave it off. So what if you pitot gets blocked, you loose what airspeed? Well you have GPS ground speed. However some "experimental EFIS" do use airspeed or change in airspeed (ie acceleration) to resolve some accelerometer error. Even still they work with out airspeed I am told (Dynon). If you must have a heated pitot, Dynon makes one for their EFIS with AOA. http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D180_Feature_AOA.html And these guys make a heated version for experimental's: http://www.gretzaero.com/ They both have some interesting temp control deal which is nice to keep from burning it out if you leave it on. Your other choice is ACS or some salvage yard Cessna or Piper heated pitot, which are old and tired. Bottom line its going to be about $500 of STUFF sitting out on your wing when you get it all wired with CB and a few pounds more. Cheers George **************************************************************************** ********* From: Dan Charrois <danlist(at)syz.com> Subject: RV-List: Current crop of pitot tubes Hi all. I'm working on an RV-10 and am at the point now of considering what kind of pitot tube to put in the thing. The bent aluminum tube idea, though functional, doesn't really appeal to me. Though I'm not an IFR pilot at the moment, I don't intend to remain that way indefinitely, and I'd like to future-proof the plane as much as practical. So I'm looking at putting in a heated pitot. Up until now I've been assuming I'd go with a Gretz pitot - I like the idea of its internal temperature regulation rather than just running at maximum current draw the whole time it's on. But of course now that I'm actually ready to get one it appears as though they're not currently being manufactured and I haven't found anywhere that has them in stock. So what other options could anyone out there suggest? Thanks! Dan -- Syzygy Research & Technology Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada Phone: 780-961-2213 **************************************************************************** ********* _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Bell" <carlbell(at)gforcecable.com>
Subject: IO 360
Date: Apr 26, 2008
Hi builders, I could use a little help on engines: I have started looking for a new engine an I must admit I have sticker shock. As near as I can tell a new IO 360 M1B type engine from any of the major experimental builder will cost 22-29K depending on options. SO is there another way. I was hoping for something more like 18K which is what it was when I first started doing my project. Since I have the finishing kit for horizontal induction, I will need to go that way or change the lower cowl. I'm afraid this may have limited my options. (done before realizing the issue) ALso a few questions: 1. ECI solid tappets vs Superior rollor tappets, is this worth $2K? 2. Dual Slicks vs one Slick and one Pmag $500 + or - a little, thoughts? 3. Horioztal induction, will I save money by going vertical, it seems if I do change the cowl I will save 1K on the engine, but have to spend $500 on a new lower cowl Currently I am thiking of an ECI engine from Aerosport but that will come in a 23K to 24K and is solid lifters. Any thoughts or help is appreciated. __________________ Carl Bell (CJ) RV 7A (Finishing kit) N947CB Reserved http://www.mykitlog.com/carlbell carlbell(at)gforcecable.com Aiken, SC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 26, 2008
From: Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Current crop of pitot tubes
George There are a few too many absolutes in your post. For a/c not certified for "known icing", unexpectedly encountering icing is not a FAR violation - it is however a dangerous situation. FAR's prohibit intentional flight into "known icing". Having a heated pitot in my PA28 or my in -10 (still in pieces) does not mean that I intend to get into an icing situation. It does mean that I am taking reasonable safety precautions to help me manage the situation in the unlikely event that it does happen. This same attitude means that I would not buy a car without airbags even though I do not intend to get into an accident. I am sure that in your 12k hours, you have seen more than a few situations where reality has not matched the forecast. Being prepared for the unexpected is just good common sense. Cheers Les _____ From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com Sent: April-26-08 4:15 AM Subject: RV-List: Re: Current crop of pitot tubes Before I make my two suggestions here is why you should not install one. Deviation for Vans plans will add weight, cost and build time. Yes you are right you don't need a heated pitot as a VFR pilot. In fact you don't need one for an IFR plane either (please read the regs before you dispute this). As a pilot with over 12,000 hrs and many 1000's of yours in IMC you can't get icing unless you are in cloud or in freezing precipitation and the temp is below freezing. Very simple no mosture no ice. No freezing or sub-freezing temp no ice. Avoid one or both no ice. So you get into icing in your IFR RV-10 when you get your rating. FIRST you should have your ticket taken back since you should NOT be in icing. You have no business being in it, and if you wounder into it, you should get out of it ASAP, climb, descend or 180 degree. If you collect ice on your airframe that you see, you are in icing conditions and now have violated FAR's and also common sense. My point is do you really need a heated pitot? No. Run some wires out there, but leave it off. So what if you pitot gets blocked, you loose what airspeed? Well you have GPS ground speed. However some "experimental EFIS" do use airspeed or change in airspeed (ie acceleration) to resolve some accelerometer error. Even still they work with out airspeed I am told (Dynon). If you must have a heated pitot, Dynon makes one for their EFIS with AOA. http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D180_Feature_AOA.html And these guys make a heated version for experimental's: http://www.gretzaero.com/ They both have some interesting temp control deal which is nice to keep from burning it out if you leave it on. Your other choice is ACS or some salvage yard Cessna or Piper heated pitot, which are old and tired. Bottom line its going to be about $500 of STUFF sitting out on your wing when you get it all wired with CB and a few pounds more. Cheers George **************************************************************************** ********* From: Dan Charrois <danlist(at)syz.com> Subject: RV-List: Current crop of pitot tubes Hi all. I'm working on an RV-10 and am at the point now of considering what kind of pitot tube to put in the thing. The bent aluminum tube idea, though functional, doesn't really appeal to me. Though I'm not an IFR pilot at the moment, I don't intend to remain that way indefinitely, and I'd like to future-proof the plane as much as practical. So I'm looking at putting in a heated pitot. Up until now I've been assuming I'd go with a Gretz pitot - I like the idea of its internal temperature regulation rather than just running at maximum current draw the whole time it's on. But of course now that I'm actually ready to get one it appears as though they're not currently being manufactured and I haven't found anywhere that has them in stock. So what other options could anyone out there suggest? Thanks! Dan -- Syzygy Research & Technology Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada Phone: 780-961-2213 **************************************************************************** ********* _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and ________________________________________________________________________________
From: william hilling <f.1.rocket(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: IO 360
Date: Apr 26, 2008
Try Aeroengines of Winchester,Va. Their phone number is 540-678-1661 and as k for Tom. Their prices and work are very good. Cheers, Craig From: carlbell(at)gforcecable.comTo: rv-list(at)matronics.comSubject: RV-List: IO 360 Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 14:50:01 -0400 Hi builders,I could use a little help on engines: I have started looking fo r a new engine an I must admit I have sticker shock. As near as I can tell a new IO 360 M1B type engine from any of the major experimental builder wil l cost 22-29K depending on options. SO is there another way. I was hoping f or something more like 18K which is what it was when I first started doing my project. Since I have the finishing kit for horizontal induction, I will need to go that way or change the lower cowl. I'm afraid this may have lim ited my options. (done before realizing the issue) ALso a few questions: ECI solid tappets vs Superior rollor tappets, is this worth $2K? Dual Slicks vs one Slick and one Pmag $500 + or - a little, thoughts? Horioztal induction, will I save money by going vertical, it seems if I do change the cowl I will save 1K on the engine, but have to spend $500 on a n ew lower cowl Currently I am thiking of an ECI engine from Aerosport but that will come i n a 23K to 24K and is solid lifters. Any thoughts or help is appreciated. __________________Carl Bell (CJ)RV 7A (Finishing kit)N947CB Reservedhttp:// www.mykitlog.com/carlbellcarlbell(at)gforcecable.comAiken, SC _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize! http://www.gowindowslive.com/Mobile/Landing/Messenger/Default.aspx?Locale =en-US?ocid=TAG_APRIL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 26, 2008
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Four New Email Lists At Matronics!!
Dear Listers, I have added four new Lists to the Matronics line up today. These include the following categories: Citabria-List Citabria, Decathlon, Scout, and Champ Zenith601-List Zenair Zodiac CH 601 Zenith640-List Zenair Zodiac CH 640 Zenith701801-List Zenair STOL CH 701 and CH 801 All services are enabled and now available including Search, Browse, Digest, Archives, Forums, Chat, etc., etc. etc...: Citabria: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?citabria-list Zenith601: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?zenith601-list Zenith640: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?zenith640-list Zenith701801: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?zenith701801-list To subscribe, go to the Matronics Email List Subscription Form: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe To check the new Lists out on the Matronics Forum go here: http://forums.matronics.com Enjoy the new Lists!! Don't forget me during the Fund Raiser! :-) Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Garmin 296
From: "Leland Collins" <federigo(at)pacbell.net>
Date: Apr 26, 2008
[quote="Leland Collins"]I've had the same problem with my 4-year old Garmin 296 being unable to lock onto satellites after loosing its internal date. I think its a dead battery problem because the battery looses about 20% of its charge overnight. I just ordered a new battery from www.batteriesamerica.com for $59 plus $11 shipping. Garmin supposedly now has the part number 010-10517-01 as a replacement for the original 011-00955-00 unit. The replacement part has a larger capacity rating. The replacement unit is the same for the 396 and 496. Leland[/quote] I changed the main battery and the problem is still there. If I do not fly the plane for several days, the unit stops tracking the date/time. Now the question is: Is it possible to change the "time" battery without sending it to Garmin? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179502#179502 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 26, 2008
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: Re: IO 360
No IO-360 uses solid lifters. I'm sure you meant hydraulic lifters with flat faces, as opposed to roller tip lifters that Lyc introduced a few years ago. There is no power benefit from Pmag so why spend the money? Carl Bell wrote: > > Hi builders, > > I could use a little help on engines: > > I have started looking for a new engine an I must admit I have sticker > shock. As near as I can tell a new IO 360 M1B type engine from any of > the major experimental builder will cost 22-29K depending on options. > SO is there another way. I was hoping for something more like 18K > which is what it was when I first started doing my project. Since I > have the finishing kit for horizontal induction, I will need to go > that way or change the lower cowl. I'm afraid this may have limited my > options. (done before realizing the issue) > ALso a few questions: > > 1. ECI solid tappets vs Superior rollor tappets, is this worth $2K? > 2. Dual Slicks vs one Slick and one Pmag $500 + or - a little, > thoughts? > 3. Horioztal induction, will I save money by going vertical, it > seems if I do change the cowl I will save 1K on the engine, but > have to spend $500 on a new lower cowl > > Currently I am thiking of an ECI engine from Aerosport but that will > come in a 23K to 24K and is solid lifters. Any thoughts or help is > appreciated. > > __________________ > Carl Bell (CJ) > RV 7A (Finishing kit) > N947CB Reserved > http://www.mykitlog.com/carlbell > carlbell(at)gforcecable.com > Aiken, SC > > > > > > > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Subject: Re: Garmin 296
Date: Apr 26, 2008
Call Garmin first and let them take you through the troubleshooting steps. There is a memory corruption issue that causes the same symptoms. If they can confirm the real time clock battery really is bad, they might replace it. Regards, Greg Young > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Leland Collins > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 9:15 PM > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Re: Garmin 296 > > > [quote="Leland Collins"]I've had the same problem with my > 4-year old Garmin 296 being unable to lock onto satellites > after loosing its internal date. I think its a dead battery > problem because the battery looses about 20% of its charge > overnight. I just ordered a new battery from > www.batteriesamerica.com for $59 plus $11 shipping. Garmin > supposedly now has the part number 010-10517-01 as a > replacement for the original 011-00955-00 unit. The > replacement part has a larger capacity rating. The > replacement unit is the same for the 396 and 496. > Leland[/quote] > I changed the main battery and the problem is still there. If > I do not fly the plane for several days, the unit stops > tracking the date/time. Now the question is: Is it possible > to change the "time" battery without sending it to Garmin? > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles Heathco" <cheathco(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: IO 360
Date: Apr 27, 2008
Re new engine, I would definatly shop for good used low time. They are out there. at least O-320's are. I looked at prices for new and rebuilt/OH, and just too much money. I eventualy found a very low time used just 3 hr drive from home and am coming up on 2 yrs, very good engine. Charles Heathco ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 27, 2008
From: rv6n(at)optonline.net
Subject: RV6 for sale
It is with great regret that I am listing my 2005 RV6 QB slider for sale. Total time 73 hours A&E since new. Aerosport 0-360 A2A fixed pitch metal Sensenich prop. Grand Rapids Horizon 1 EFIS MFD, Bendix/King KMD 150 w/GPS MFD, electric flaps, Garmin SL40 and GTX 320A, and all the Good Stuff! To much to list here. Contact me off line at RV6n(at)optonline.net for all the details. Selling due to loss of medical. $92,500 Also for Sale, two wooded acres runway lot at Long Island Airpark on Lake Norman, NC. Phase two Lot 8 not listed with a realtor yet and will show as sold if you look it up at www.longislandairpark.com $210,000 with a 24 ft boat slip in the new marina. Bob Bales RV6n(at)optonline.net 631-495-9689 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kelly Patterson" <kbob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Garmin internal battery replacement - DONE! IT WORKS!
Date: Apr 27, 2008
This is good info for everyone who has a Garmin 296 / 396 / 496 / 495 / etc. I have a ~4 year old Garmin 396 that had issues locking onto satellites. My last flight of over an hour had the Garmin failing to lock at all. Time to fix something - pretty sure it was the internal battery (not the big pop-off battery). I'd read that the repair is $250-400 and for that price it was worth seeing if I could fix it myself. I split the case and disassembled the unit. Found the internal battery, found a replacement, reassembled , powered up and BAM! locked on the satellites. Success. I won't post the pictures and text here since I'm moving and will no longer have web service through my same provider. However - if you want instructions with photos, and someone here could post them on the VansAirforce.net site, I will gladly send them to you. email me direct at kbob(at)cox.net. Kelly Patterson RV-6A N716K PHX moving to DEN Subject: RV-List: Re: Garmin 296 From: "Leland Collins" <federigo(at)pacbell.net> [quote="Leland Collins"]I've had the same problem with my 4-year old Garmin 296 being unable to lock onto satellites after loosing its internal date. I think its a dead battery problem because the battery looses about 20% of its charge overnight. I just ordered a new battery from www.batteriesamerica.com for $59 plus $11 shipping. Garmin supposedly now has the part number 010-10517-01 as a replacement for the original 011-00955-00 unit. The replacement part has a larger capacity rating. The replacement unit is the same for the 396 and 496. Leland[/quote] I changed the main battery and the problem is still there. If I do not fly the plane for several days, the unit stops tracking the date/time. Now the question is: Is it possible to change the "time" battery without sending it to Garmin? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179502#179502 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 28, 2008
From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net>
Subject: AFP fuel injection.
Please help: I'm putting all the pieces of my RV-6A together for the final time to get ready for engine start and I just keep running into one frustration after another. Yesterday I was installing the Vetterman exhaust and had to think up and make some mods to the tail pipe hangar set up on the right side because I had put the fat starter wire close by (which created interference with the original hangar configuration). Today I finished the exhaust and began the final install of my Airflow Performance Fuel controller (throttle body). Since I have a tri gear airplane there are steel tubes that are angled down through this area to connect to the nose gear leg socket. Since the AFP fuel controller is physically larger than a carburetor I had to do some real head scratching to fabricate throttle and mixture cable mounting brackets that didn't interfere with the gear leg socket tubes. Unfortunately, at the time I didn't have the exhaust hangars in place or I might have noticed that the intersection of the hangars at the pipe (where incidentally, I had to make the mods last night to make them work with the fat starter wire) was smack in the middle of where the throttle cable passes through!!! Those of you who have AFP fuel injection fitted to the bottom of the sump (updraft configuration on a parallel valve Lycoming 320/360 on tri gear RV and using the AFP bracket that bolts between the fuel controller and sump) could you take some pictures of your throttle and mixture mounting brackets and email them to me? Serious frustration has set in, I've made and remade so many things over the 11 years of this project that my motivation is gone. I go to the hangar on weekends thinking I'm going to get a lot accomplished and not much seems to get done even though I always have a tool in my hand (today was mostly head scratching wondering how I'm going make this work with the exhaust hangar mod, I have to come up with a new bracket configuration and right now I'm not seeing any other options, should have just bought a carburetor). When I got the canopy and windscreen done a couple months ago I thought it was smooth sailing till first flight. Yet I'm still having to remake and modify things that I had done months (or even years) ago. Anyone want to buy a 99% project cheap :-( Any builders assistance folks want to come to FL and finish this thing :-(( I'm tired of going to the hangar every night and weekend and still no flying airplane (meanwhile there's 9/11, TFRs, user fees, $5/gal gas....). Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Will I ever fly this thing? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 27, 2008
From: RICHARD MILLER <rickpegser(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: AFP fuel injection.
DEAN 80 % OF THE CONSTRUCTION TAKES 20% OF THE TIME. THE REMAINING 20% IS THE "HOW DO I MAKE THIS CRAP WORK" And takes the remaining 80% of the time to figure out.. While doing fire wall foward work, i know that this sounds like building 101 but for others it should be said, place all big pieces on the engine, assy/ exhaust/ intakes,/airboxes/ oil coolers. next place baffles. next is the control cables, next is hoses. then wire the damn thing. and never cut a cable , hose or wire untill ever thing is in posistion. long is cheap, short is expensive. That said dont let the frustration get to you. with out a pic of your install i can not help but the guys at afp are great to work with. i have a customers system there right now. i am sure they will be able to help. after all are we are talking about is four brackets /cables and springs. you have built an airplane and after this you will be able to make really big noises with it. good luck. call if you get stuck call 559----270-----7113 rick m a+p.i/a j-3 pa-12 c-150 c-152 c-172 c-206 b-18 c-120 and when i finish the 120 and the wife lets me builder of an rv-9 DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote: Please help: I'm putting all the pieces of my RV-6A together for the final time to get ready for engine start and I just keep running into one frustration after another. Yesterday I was installing the Vetterman exhaust and had to think up and make some mods to the tail pipe hangar set up on the right side because I had put the fat starter wire close by (which created interference with the original hangar configuration). Today I finished the exhaust and began the final install of my Airflow Performance Fuel controller (throttle body). Since I have a tri gear airplane there are steel tubes that are angled down through this area to connect to the nose gear leg socket. Since the AFP fuel controller is physically larger than a carburetor I had to do some real head scratching to fabricate throttle and mixture cable mounting brackets that didn't interfere with the gear leg socket tubes. Unfortunately, at the time I didn't have the exhaust hangars in place or I might have noticed that the intersection of the hangars at the pipe (where incidentally, I had to make the mods last night to make them work with the fat starter wire) was smack in the middle of where the throttle cable passes through!!! Those of you who have AFP fuel injection fitted to the bottom of the sump (updraft configuration on a parallel valve Lycoming 320/360 on tri gear RV and using the AFP bracket that bolts between the fuel controller and sump) could you take some pictures of your throttle and mixture mounting brackets and email them to me? Serious frustration has set in, I've made and remade so many things over the 11 years of this project that my motivation is gone. I go to the hangar on weekends thinking I'm going to get a lot accomplished and not much seems to get done even though I always have a tool in my hand (today was mostly head scratching wondering how I'm going make this work with the exhaust hangar mod, I have to come up with a new bracket configuration and right now I'm not seeing any other options, should have just bought a carburetor). When I got the canopy and windscreen done a couple months ago I thought it was smooth sailing till first flight. Yet I'm still having to remake and modify things that I had done months (or even years) ago. Anyone want to buy a 99% project cheap :-( Any builders assistance folks want to come to FL and finish this thing :-(( I'm tired of going to the hangar every night and weekend and still no flying airplane (meanwhile there's 9/11, TFRs, user fees, $5/gal gas....). Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Will I ever fly this thing? --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 28, 2008
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Wiggly Cotter pins
My wiggly one is on the lower left engine mount - so, like you, this one is important to me. -----Original Message----- >From: John Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> >Sent: Apr 25, 2008 11:38 AM >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV-List: Wiggly Cotter pins > >I find wiggly cotter pins a lot doing EAA Tech Inspections. There is no >standard on experimentals, the owner/builder sets the standard. The >AC43-13 wants them tight. The airliners you fly on are all tight. The >airline Quality Control Inspector will fail any that are wiggly. We do >that by pulling the head down into the fastener, bending the legs >against the object and often smacking them with the handle of our >pliers. QC always looks for wigglies, correct leg length of cotter pins, >correct hardware lash up and often on critical items like engine mounts >and landing gear confirm NO Wigglies by using torque seal paint. > > > >I always point out the wiggly ones on engine mounts. > > > >Guess I must be an AR Tech. > > > >John Cox > > > >From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Leonard >Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 7:20 AM >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Wiggly Cotter pins > > > > > > > > Somebody tell me that I'm not out of my mind with my >anal-retentiveness..... > > Ralph Capen > RV6AQB Slider N822AR @ N06 > Knocking out the million little things..... > > > > >Unfortunately Ralph, I think you are out or your mind with A.R. Sorry. >They have rehab you know. :-) >-- >David Leonard > >Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net >http://RotaryRoster.net > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 28, 2008
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Battery Location - RV4+180HP+CS+ETrim+FullSwivelTailwheel
Hello RV Listers! Well, after quite a hiatus, I'm back on my RV-4 project. This year marks the 20th year since its beginning, and I'm thinking that that its time finally see it to completion! The options have changed quite a bit since I started the project, and the latest iteration has a 180HP and a Hartzell CS prop. I had already mounted the battery in the normal spot up by the firewall between the pilot's legs. With all the extra weight up front, I'm sure I'll have to relocate the battery behind the cabin somewhere. Of note, however, is that I have electric trim installed in the Elevator, and the full-swivel tailwheel fork, both of which add some weight to the far aft location. I would appreciate some feedback on selecting an exacting location for the battery given my situation. Also, what gauge battery cables to use given the remote location. Its great to be back on the project; I'm looking forward to getting back into the discussions on the List! Thanks for the help! Matt Dralle RV-4 #1762 - N442RV (res) Matronics List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 28, 2008
From: Louis Willig <larywil(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Battery Location - RV4+180HP+CS+ETrim+FullSwivelTailwheel
At 02:41 PM 4/28/2008, you wrote: > > >The options have changed quite a bit since I started the project, >and the latest iteration has a 180HP and a Hartzell CS prop. I had >already mounted the battery in the normal spot up by the firewall >between the pilot's legs. With all the extra weight up front, I'm >sure I'll have to relocate the battery behind the cabin >somewhere. Of note, however, is that I have electric trim installed >in the Elevator, and the full-swivel tailwheel fork, both of which >add some weight to the far aft location. Matt, There should be no problem putting the battery where you first planned (between your legs). I have the same set up as you (IO-360, Hartzell C/S) and find the aircraft is perfectly balanced when the trim is in the center. You will save the nasty problem of running a heavy wire fore and aft. The low weight AGM batteries are great and need only minor attention. I would suggest two things: (1) try to set up a means of charging your battery without removing the center console, and (2) don't cut through the firewall until you have the complete engine/firewall forward completed. Yesterday, someone mentioned that they had a problem working the battery cable around the exhaust system, and had to "create" a new exhaust hanger system. I have a similar problem, but not as bad. It's good to see you so close to home. and I owe you a few years of contributions. This list, and its manager, is superb. Yea. I know. I exaggerate a lot. Louis I Willig 1640 Oakwood Dr. Penn Valley, PA 19072 610 668-4964 RV-4, N180PF, 650 hrs "Miss Viagra" 190HP IO-360, C/S prop ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 28, 2008
From: Doug Weiler <dcw(at)mnwing.org>
Subject: Re: Battery Location - RV4+180HP+CS+ETrim+FullSwivelTailwheel
Matt: My RV-4 has a 0-360 with a Hartzell c/s prop. The battery (B&C) is located in the "normal" spot and I have had no issues with this configuration in 450 hours of operation. The a/c may be slightly nose heavy (with me at 150 pounds I am at the FWD c/g limit). Personally I would install the battery in the called for location. Doug Weiler Matt Dralle wrote: > > > Hello RV Listers! > > Well, after quite a hiatus, I'm back on my RV-4 project. This year marks the 20th year since its beginning, and I'm thinking that that its time finally see it to completion! > > The options have changed quite a bit since I started the project, and the latest iteration has a 180HP and a Hartzell CS prop. I had already mounted the battery in the normal spot up by the firewall between the pilot's legs. With all the extra weight up front, I'm sure I'll have to relocate the battery behind the cabin somewhere. Of note, however, is that I have electric trim installed in the Elevator, and the full-swivel tailwheel fork, both of which add some weight to the far aft location. > > I would appreciate some feedback on selecting an exacting location for the battery given my situation. Also, what gauge battery cables to use given the remote location. > > Its great to be back on the project; I'm looking forward to getting back into the discussions on the List! > > Thanks for the help! > > Matt Dralle > RV-4 #1762 - N442RV (res) > Matronics List Administrator > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 28, 2008
From: "J Riffel" <riffeljl(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Pic of CHEAP Oil Cutter
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Mersek" <1rv6flyer(at)internet49.com>
Subject: Calaveras Air Fair
Date: Apr 29, 2008
On behalf of Calaveras County Airport I would like to say Thank You to all who flew in to support our annual Airport Day community event. It was a joy to see such a great variety of aircraft fly in and fly by! In addition to the fly in aircraft Calaveras Airport is very pleased with the turnout of local people as well; it is a great opportunity to show the local's what our airport is all about. Around 200 people were able to take a scenic $5 airplane ride around San Andreas, Angels Camp, and New Melones Reservoir. Looking forward to the wonderful aircraft, pilots, and crews flying in next year; Thank You again for visiting KCPU! A very special Thank You to the RV community for flying in. It is always a joy to see so many RV's in one place, certainly more than 40 had flown in this year. I was asked by another RV pilot "Which RV here do you like the best?" I could only say that each one was as beautiful as the next and I am very happy flying my RV-6. --Larry Mersek N336RV KCPU Air Fair Advertising ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bruno <rv4(at)videotron.ca>
Subject: RE-AIRPARK LIVING
Date: Apr 29, 2008
To Dennis,Charlie,Carl, Ed,Lynn and All who responded so far.. Thanks a lot for all the good suggestions and ideas regarding Airpark Living.These were and still are greatly appreciated,keep them coming. To Dennis... The Airpark is to be located at the Lachute Airport (CSE4 ) ,north of Montreal (CYUL), which is a 4000' hard surface ,fully lighted with a VOR approach airport. The Airpark,so far, is to be a three sections developpement with an only commercial hangars section, one with a mix a private hangars & hangars-homes set up with finally an only hangar/homes section ( that the section where the lot I'm looking at is located,it is the largest lot of them all as a matter of fact ). The only drawback so far is the type of hangar/house combo, the developper is allowing. What they are planning on right now are hangar/ homes looking like typical hangars ( corrugated aluminum exterior ) which is not exactly what I was planning on building.I'm planning on something more '' highend '' if you know what I mean....without going overboard. The developper also mentionned that they are responsible for the road / taxiway buildup but not the paving.The Airparks homeowners will be responsible for the paving of the road / taxiways which is not a problem for me as long as it doesn't take years to complete...My RV-4 has a composite prop and doesn't like gravel too much.. We will be responsible for snow removal. The zoning and restrictions have all been approved by the city ( which is behind the project 100% ). Property and liability insurance will be at the owners expenses but are a lot less complicated up here than they are down in the States.... I have pictures of the airport/ airpark if anyone wants to have a look, just send me your e-mail and I'll send them to you. Thanks again Bruno rv4(at)videotron.ca P.S: I will subscribe to the newletter below... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Bruno, With due respect, we don't know enough about your airpark to allow us to even begin to offer suggestions. The house/hangar layout will be determined after consideration of airpark covenants and restrictions, local zoning, your insurance company, hard surface or grass taxiways, snow removal considerations, and careful consideration of your plot survey, to name but a few factors. For starters visit http://www.livingwithyourplane.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 29, 2008
From: sam ray <sam95037(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: RV8 gear leg fairing
How did you all clamp/hold the RV8 gear leg fairing so it would not slide down the gear leg? The plans leave it to our imagination... Sam Ray Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: RV8 gear leg fairing
Date: Apr 29, 2008
Sam, a number of different methods. What I did was use the fiberglass fairing from gear leg to fuselage to hold the metal fairing in place. Worked for 10 years. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "sam ray" <sam95037(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 6:46 PM Subject: RV-List: RV8 gear leg fairing > > How did you all clamp/hold the RV8 gear leg fairing so > it would not slide down the gear leg? The plans leave > it to our imagination... > > Sam Ray > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 29, 2008
From: "Larry Bowen" <larry(at)bowenaero.com>
Subject: Re: RV8 gear leg fairing
I installed the hinge such that the fairing was snug enough to not move. No other attachments needed. -- Larry Bowen Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 6:46 PM, sam ray wrote: > > How did you all clamp/hold the RV8 gear leg fairing so > it would not slide down the gear leg? The plans leave > it to our imagination... > > Sam Ray > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: RV8 gear leg fairing
Date: Apr 29, 2008
On 29 Apr 2008, at 18:46, sam ray wrote: > > How did you all clamp/hold the RV8 gear leg fairing so > it would not slide down the gear leg? The plans leave > it to our imagination... > I would be amazed if you needed to do anything at all. The gear leg fairings are quite tight on the gear legs once the hinge pins are in, and they can't slide very far before they would hit the bend at the bottom of the gear leg. I'm hoping I can get by without worrying about this. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (FInal Assembly) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Timothy E. Cone" <tcone1(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: RV8 gear leg fairing
Date: Apr 29, 2008
I've gone without any method of securing the gear leg fairing for the first 125 hours. That fairing can't go far, even if it wanted to. I haven't seen any evidence of movement. Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Horton" <khorton01(at)rogers.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 5:58 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: RV8 gear leg fairing > > On 29 Apr 2008, at 18:46, sam ray wrote: > >> >> How did you all clamp/hold the RV8 gear leg fairing so >> it would not slide down the gear leg? The plans leave >> it to our imagination... >> > > I would be amazed if you needed to do anything at all. The gear leg > fairings are quite tight on the gear legs once the hinge pins are in, and > they can't slide very far before they would hit the bend at the bottom of > the gear leg. I'm hoping I can get by without worrying about this. > > -- > Kevin Horton > RV-8 (FInal Assembly) > Ottawa, Canada > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 29, 2008
From: "John Caldwell" <howtocrimp(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Looking for electrical info
Hello RV Builders and old friends: This E mail is from John Caldwell. I am the original founder of Terminal Town. I've been on hiatus for 6 years running the Electrical/Lighting dept. for an industrial design firm that is a subcontractor to Boeing. I am proud to say that I had a great deal of input into the new lighting systems that will be used on the 787 and other Boeing Aircraft. (And no it is not my fault that it is delayed.) I am located in Everett WA. I am looking for a RV builder in the area that is doing the wiring on his/her RV project. I would like to photo and video his/her project. So, if you know someone or if you are at that stage in your build. Please contact me at howtocrimp(at)gmail.com. Many thanks and best regards, John Caldwell ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry James" <larry(at)ncproto.com>
Subject: crooks at Performance Engines
Date: Apr 30, 2008
Well, it's time I go public. Ron Munson / Performance Engines has owed me and promised to pay me back my $20,000 deposit for over two years now. I read Matt Throckmorton's account of his dealings with Mike Moore and mine is a very similar story. Bottom line here, no matter how you slice it Ron Munson is a liar and a cheat and should be in jail; let alone receive any orders from any of us or anyone else. His "salesman" Stuart Featherstone falls into the same category. I've tried being nice talking with him, I've had an attorney send nice letters, I've had an attorney send threatening letters, I've had a collections agency work to get my money back. So far, no joy. Apparently Ron Munson has moved his banking to Nevada while maintaining operations in California; making it more difficult and expensive to go after him. Anyone with any ideas on what to do with this crook ?? I have no intention of letting this go J. _________________ Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon Rocket (under construction) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: crooks at Performance Engines
Date: Apr 30, 2008
On 30 Apr 2008, at 17:34, Larry James wrote: > Well, it's time I go public. Ron Munson / Performance Engines has > owed me and promised to pay me back my $20,000 deposit for over two > years now. I read Matt Throckmorton's account of his dealings with > Mike Moore and mine is a very similar story. Bottom line here, no > matter how you slice it Ron Munson is a liar and a cheat and should > be in jail; let alone receive any orders from any of us or anyone > else. His "salesman" Stuart Featherstone falls into the same > category. I've tried being nice talking with him, I've had an > attorney send nice letters, I've had an attorney send threatening > letters, I've had a collections agency work to get my money back. > So far, no joy. Apparently Ron Munson has moved his banking to > Nevada while maintaining operations in California; making it more > difficult and expensive to go after him. Anyone with any ideas on > what to do with this crook ?? I have no intention of letting this > go J. > _________________ Well, at this stage, maybe the best bet is to attempt to get enough web coverage of your problems that he starts to realize that not resolving this will cost him a bunch of business. One approach would be to create a web page that gave your side of the story. Post a link here. Post a link on the VAF WWW forum. If enough other people link to your web page, that will start to increase the Google ranking of your page. Eventually it could start to appear close enough to the top of a search for Performance Engines that prospective customers start to see it. Try to get the attention of AvWeb, and the Aero News Network. Contact the Better Business Bureau. They probably can't do much, but they will put an entry in their searchable database saying that there are unresolved customer complaints. That will deter some other potential customers. Go to OSH, with a whole stack of flyers telling your story, and post them all over the site. Keep this up long enough and eventually they may see an affect on their business. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (FInal Assembly) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 30, 2008
From: "RALPH HOOVER" <hooverra(at)verizon.net>
Subject: crooks at Performance Engines?
Larry, First let me say that I Purchased my engine from the fine folks at Mattatuck. That said I don't have a dog in this hunt in any way. Judging from your post you have just taken this public although there is not much detail. There is usually 2 sides to every story so I don't have any ability to evaluate your claim. I think before reasonable folks make judgments about the credibility of either side we should have some facts. Otherwise there are courts to sort out such disputes based on documented facts and not on emotion. All the best, I hope you are able to get satisfactory resolution. In the mean time lets not all rush to judgment. Ralph Hoover _____ From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry James Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:34 PM engines-list(at)matronics.com; lancair-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RV-List: crooks at Performance Engines Well, it's time I go public. Ron Munson / Performance Engines has owed me and promised to pay me back my $20,000 deposit for over two years now. I read Matt Throckmorton's account of his dealings with Mike Moore and mine is a very similar story. Bottom line here, no matter how you slice it Ron Munson is a liar and a cheat and should be in jail; let alone receive any orders from any of us or anyone else. His "salesman" Stuart Featherstone falls into the same category. I've tried being nice talking with him, I've had an attorney send nice letters, I've had an attorney send threatening letters, I've had a collections agency work to get my money back. So far, no joy. Apparently Ron Munson has moved his banking to Nevada while maintaining operations in California; making it more difficult and expensive to go after him. Anyone with any ideas on what to do with this crook ?? I have no intention of letting this go :-). _________________ Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon Rocket (under construction) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 01, 2008
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org>
Subject: Re: Flying - Privilege or Right ???
> I wish what you say is true. Unfortunately, flying falls under the same > criteria as my right to swing my fist ends at your nose. Oddly, this uses an argument proving the right to fly in an attempt to refute the right to fly. You _do_ have the right to swing your fist, it just ends where my nose starts. Likewise, you _do_ have the right to fly. You don't have the right to fly your plane into my house, but you have the right to fly it. The fact that the government can regulate your flying in no way indicates that the right doesn't exist. To the contrary, government regulations are constrained by your right to fly, not the other way around. Flying regulations effectively define where "my nose begins." Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC, Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty" <jfogarty(at)tds.net>
Subject: Re: crooks at Performance Engines
Date: May 01, 2008
We need a list on this site of preferred vendors and vendors we should not deal with and that list should be on the search page for all RV's. I'm wondering if this is possible? We work hard everyday in the shop and at our day job, and we certainly should know who the crooks are! Just my two cents. Jim RV9a N492RV (building) ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Horton To: rv-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 6:37 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: crooks at Performance Engines On 30 Apr 2008, at 17:34, Larry James wrote: Well, it's time I go public. Ron Munson / Performance Engines has owed me and promised to pay me back my $20,000 deposit for over two years now. I read Matt Throckmorton's account of his dealings with Mike Moore and mine is a very similar story. Bottom line here, no matter how you slice it Ron Munson is a liar and a cheat and should be in jail; let alone receive any orders from any of us or anyone else. His "salesman" Stuart Featherstone falls into the same category. I've tried being nice talking with him, I've had an attorney send nice letters, I've had an attorney send threatening letters, I've had a collections agency work to get my money back. So far, no joy. Apparently Ron Munson has moved his banking to Nevada while maintaining operations in California; making it more difficult and expensive to go after him. Anyone with any ideas on what to do with this crook ?? I have no intention of letting this go J. _________________ Well, at this stage, maybe the best bet is to attempt to get enough web coverage of your problems that he starts to realize that not resolving this will cost him a bunch of business. One approach would be to create a web page that gave your side of the story. Post a link here. Post a link on the VAF WWW forum. If enough other people link to your web page, that will start to increase the Google ranking of your page. Eventually it could start to appear close enough to the top of a search for Performance Engines that prospective customers start to see it. Try to get the attention of AvWeb, and the Aero News Network. Contact the Better Business Bureau. They probably can't do much, but they will put an entry in their searchable database saying that there are unresolved customer complaints. That will deter some other potential customers. Go to OSH, with a whole stack of flyers telling your story, and post them all over the site. Keep this up long enough and eventually they may see an affect on their business. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (FInal Assembly) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 4/29/2008 6:27 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry James" <larry(at)ncproto.com>
Subject: crooks at Performance Engines
Date: May 01, 2008
>>Larry, >> >>First let me say that I Purchased my engine from the fine folks at Mattatuck. That said I don't have a dog in >>this hunt in any way. Judging from your post you have just taken this public although there is not much detail. >>There is usually 2 sides to every story so I don't have any ability to evaluate your claim. >> >>I think before reasonable folks make judgments about the credibility of either side we should have some facts. >>Otherwise there are courts to sort out such disputes based on documented facts and not on emotion. >> >>All the best, I hope you are able to get satisfactory resolution. In the mean time lets not all rush to >>judgment. >> >>Ralph Hoover Hi Ralph, Here are some more details: I own / run a small business and see a lot of things run by my desk. I run a high-end machine shop with all multi-axis machines making orthopedic implants, medical devices, aircraft parts, and the like. The success of my business is largely based on old fashioned principles: honesty, quality, and expertise. The short story on goes like this: I decided to go with Performance Engines for a "hot rod" IO-540 for my Rocket. They asked for a $20,000 deposit and promised delivery in 90 days - all in a written contract (by email and fax). The 90 days came and went, I wasn't worried; another couple of months went by, I still wasn't too worried. After 9 months went by and still no engine I was worried. We had been talking during this time and there were "reasons" for the delay (for example, they were unable to secure a Barrett cold-air-induction sump). Then a friend of mine (based at my home airport) visited Performance Engines looking for another engine builder for his Reno racer; and found that while Performance advertises and talks up their dyno data and experience; they have no dyno. Given this and the fact that they were over 6 months late in delivering my engine I decided to pull the plug; I cancelled my order and asked for my deposit back. Ron agreed but asked for a little time to pull together the $20,000. Again I wasn't too worried and agreed to 2 months. This time came and went with no money. Long story short, after 2 years, over 50 phone calls, many promises, many broken promises, and the involvement of an attorney; I had received around $8,000 of my deposit returned. During this time my secretary kept a phone log and the number of calls and emails that went un-returned is staggering; as well as the number of times we were promised "$4,000 by the end of next week" only to receive $1500 2-1/2 weeks later. As a last resort I let a collections agency try; and after they had worked their normal process, they came back and said that Ron had shown himself to be fairly adept at circumventing debt; among the tactics are banking in Nevada while conducting operations in California and having his bookkeeper stonewall. These folks said the only way to go further would be for me to pay the up-front costs of a lawsuit. I'm taking this to mean "more good money after bad" so I'm very reticent to make this investment (most likely not an investment at all). That's pretty much the story. It has been my experience that it is not that hard to "do the right thing" and keep my nose clean. There is a very rare customer that is difficult to please, but they are rare. Even more rare (but do exist) is the "impossible to please" customer. It happens. But even then, it is fairly easy to walk away clean. My dealings with Ron at Performance has been anything but clean. I was quite reticent to go public with this and your response is exactly why. If I read someone making a claim like this I would naturally ask myself what part this "wronged person" had played to cause this breakdown. In throwing this mud it seems there is no escaping some of it sticking to me. And I didn't like this prospect. But in the end I didn't like the prospect of Ron Munson getting away with my (now) $12,000 even more. And in truth I cannot find myself carrying any fault - the case is very simple and straight forward: I paid a deposit for an engine; the engine was never delivered; it was acknowledged the deposit was to be returned; the deposit was not returned; done; black and white. The only reasonable conclusion is that Performance Engines, Ron Munson, and Stuart Featherstone are crooks. I have received some very nice and encouraging emails off-line; thank you to all of you J If anyone else has ideas on how I can get my money back I'd love to hear from them. Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon Rocket under construction ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Fasching" <n1cxo320(at)salidaco.com>
Subject: Ever Hear of This Product?
Date: May 01, 2008
I noticed an ad in Popular Science about a 'spark plug' called a "pulse plug" made by an outfit called Pulstar. It looks interesting, and I wondered if anyone ever tried one in a Lycoming that was already using auto plugs like I do in my Lightspeed Engineering electronic ignition system. You can take a look at this product at pulstarplug.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 01, 2008
From: "RALPH HOOVER" <hooverra(at)verizon.net>
Subject: crooks at Performance Engines
Larry, Thanks for the reply. Let me again recommend Mattituck!! One remedy is to warn others and provide feedback good and bad. It may not get your deposit back but it could warn off others that could be taken by a crook. It sounds like Ron is perfecting his bad practice and not just caught short for a moment. You are probably not the first or last. Good luck, unfortunately for $12,000 money spent on lawyers probably would only net you more grief and aggravation. Just spread the word. It's probably easier to recover working at what you love than fighting with the crooks. Let us know if he makes good on the refund or not, a periodic note may just influence someone else's decision on engines. Regards Ralph _____ From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry James Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:27 PM Subject: RV-List: crooks at Performance Engines >>Larry, >> >>First let me say that I Purchased my engine from the fine folks at Mattatuck. That said I don't have a dog in >>this hunt in any way. Judging from your post you have just taken this public although there is not much detail. >>There is usually 2 sides to every story so I don't have any ability to evaluate your claim. >> >>I think before reasonable folks make judgments about the credibility of either side we should have some facts. >>Otherwise there are courts to sort out such disputes based on documented facts and not on emotion. >> >>All the best, I hope you are able to get satisfactory resolution. In the mean time lets not all rush to >>judgment. >> >>Ralph Hoover Hi Ralph, Here are some more details: I own / run a small business and see a lot of things run by my desk. I run a high-end machine shop with all multi-axis machines making orthopedic implants, medical devices, aircraft parts, and the like. The success of my business is largely based on old fashioned principles: honesty, quality, and expertise. The short story on goes like this: I decided to go with Performance Engines for a "hot rod" IO-540 for my Rocket. They asked for a $20,000 deposit and promised delivery in 90 days - all in a written contract (by email and fax). The 90 days came and went, I wasn't worried; another couple of months went by, I still wasn't too worried. After 9 months went by and still no engine I was worried. We had been talking during this time and there were "reasons" for the delay (for example, they were unable to secure a Barrett cold-air-induction sump). Then a friend of mine (based at my home airport) visited Performance Engines looking for another engine builder for his Reno racer; and found that while Performance advertises and talks up their dyno data and experience; they have no dyno. Given this and the fact that they were over 6 months late in delivering my engine I decided to pull the plug; I cancelled my order and asked for my deposit back. Ron agreed but asked for a little time to pull together the $20,000. Again I wasn't too worried and agreed to 2 months. This time came and went with no money. Long story short, after 2 years, over 50 phone calls, many promises, many broken promises, and the involvement of an attorney; I had received around $8,000 of my deposit returned. During this time my secretary kept a phone log and the number of calls and emails that went un-returned is staggering; as well as the number of times we were promised "$4,000 by the end of next week" only to receive $1500 2-1/2 weeks later. As a last resort I let a collections agency try; and after they had worked their normal process, they came back and said that Ron had shown himself to be fairly adept at circumventing debt; among the tactics are banking in Nevada while conducting operations in California and having his bookkeeper stonewall. These folks said the only way to go further would be for me to pay the up-front costs of a lawsuit. I'm taking this to mean "more good money after bad" so I'm very reticent to make this investment (most likely not an investment at all). That's pretty much the story. It has been my experience that it is not that hard to "do the right thing" and keep my nose clean. There is a very rare customer that is difficult to please, but they are rare. Even more rare (but do exist) is the "impossible to please" customer. It happens. But even then, it is fairly easy to walk away clean. My dealings with Ron at Performance has been anything but clean. I was quite reticent to go public with this and your response is exactly why. If I read someone making a claim like this I would naturally ask myself what part this "wronged person" had played to cause this breakdown. In throwing this mud it seems there is no escaping some of it sticking to me. And I didn't like this prospect. But in the end I didn't like the prospect of Ron Munson getting away with my (now) $12,000 even more. And in truth I cannot find myself carrying any fault - the case is very simple and straight forward: I paid a deposit for an engine; the engine was never delivered; it was acknowledged the deposit was to be returned; the deposit was not returned; done; black and white. The only reasonable conclusion is that Performance Engines, Ron Munson, and Stuart Featherstone are crooks. I have received some very nice and encouraging emails off-line; thank you to all of you :-) If anyone else has ideas on how I can get my money back I'd love to hear from them. Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon Rocket under construction ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 01, 2008
From: scott bilinski <rv8a2001(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: crooks at Performance Engines
Go to small claims you can get another 7~8k and then immediately go to the marshals office and have the companies income garnished, meanig-having a marshall sit there unitl you get your money.=0A=0A-Scott B=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Larry James <larry(at)ncproto.com>=0ATo: r v-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, May 1, 2008 10:26:46 AM=0ASubject: R V-List: crooks at Performance Engines=0A=0A=0A>>Larry,=0A>> -=0A>>First l et me say that I Purchased my engine from the fine folks at Mattatuck. That said I don't have a dog in >>this hunt in any way. Judging from your post you have just taken this public although there is not much detail. >>There is usually 2 sides to every story so I don't have any ability to evaluate y our claim. =0A>> -=0A>>I think before reasonable folks make judgments abo ut the credibility of either side we should have some facts. >>Otherwise th ere are courts to sort out such disputes based on documented facts and not on emotion.=0A>> -=0A>>All the best, I hope you are able to get satisfact ory resolution. In the mean time lets not all rush to >>judgment.=0A>> - =0A>>Ralph Hoover=0A-=0AHi Ralph,=0AHere are some more details:=0AI own / run a small business and see a lot of things run by my desk.- I run a hi gh-end machine shop with all multi-axis machines making orthopedic implants , medical devices, aircraft parts, and the like.- The success of my busin ess is largely based on old fashioned principles: honesty, quality, and exp ertise.=0A-=0AThe short story on goes like this: I decided to go with Per formance Engines for a =93hot rod=94 IO-540 for my Rocket.- They asked fo r a $20,000 deposit and promised delivery in 90 days ' all in a written c ontract (by email and fax).- The 90 days came and went, I wasn=92t worrie d; another couple of months went by, I still wasn=92t too worried.- After 9 months went by and still no engine I was worried.- We had been talking during this time and there were =93reasons=94 for the delay (for example, they were unable to secure a Barrett cold-air-induction sump).- Then a fr iend of mine (based at my home airport) visited Performance Engines looking for another engine builder for his Reno racer; and found that while Perfor mance advertises and talks up their dyno data and experience; they have no dyno.- Given this and the fact that they were over 6 months late in deliv ering my engine I decided to pull the plug; I cancelled my order and asked for my deposit back.- Ron agreed but asked for a little time to pull together the $20,0 00.- Again I wasn=92t too worried and agreed to 2 months.- This time ca me and went with no money.- Long story short, after 2 years, over 50 phon e calls, many promises, many broken promises, and the involvement of an att orney; I had received around $8,000 of my deposit returned.- During this time my secretary kept a phone log and the number of calls and emails that went un-returned is staggering; as well as the number of times we were prom ised =93$4,000 by the end of next week=94 only to receive $1500 2-1/2 weeks later.- As a last resort I let a collections agency try; and after they had worked their normal process, they came back and said that Ron had shown himself to be fairly adept at circumventing debt; among the tactics are ba nking in Nevada while conducting operations in California and having his bo okkeeper stonewall.- These folks said the only way to go further would be for me to pay the up-front costs of a lawsuit.- I=92m taking this to mea n =93more good money after bad=94 so I=92m very reticent to make this inves tment (most likely not an investment at all).- That=92s pretty much the s tory.=0A-=0AIt has been my experience that it is not that hard to =93do t he right thing=94 and keep my nose clean.- There is a very rare customer that is difficult to please, but they are rare.- Even more rare (but do e xist) is the =93impossible to please=94 customer.- It happens.- But eve n then, it is fairly easy to walk away clean.- My dealings with Ron at Pe rformance has been anything but clean.=0A-=0AI was quite reticent to go p ublic with this and your response is exactly why.- If I read someone maki ng a claim like this I would naturally ask myself what part this =93wronged person=94 had played to cause this breakdown.- In throwing this mud it s eems there is no escaping some of it sticking to me.- And I didn=92t like this prospect.- But in the end I didn=92t like the prospect of Ron Munso n getting away with my (now) $12,000 even more.- And in truth I cannot fi nd myself carrying any fault ' the case is very simple and straight forwa rd: I paid a deposit for an engine; the engine was never delivered; it was acknowledged the deposit was to be returned; the deposit was not returned; done; black and white.- The only reasonable conclusion is that Performanc e Engines, Ron Munson, and Stuart Featherstone are crooks.=0A-=0AI have r eceived some very nice and encouraging emails off-line; thank you to all of you J- If anyone else has ideas on how I can get my money back I=92d lov e to hear from them.=0ALarry E. James=0ABellevue, WA=0ASuper Decathlon=0ARo =================0A=0A=0A ____________ ________________________________________________________________________=0A Be a better friend, newshound, and =0Aknow-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry James" <larry(at)ncproto.com>
Subject: RE: the money you owe me
Date: May 01, 2008
Hi Stuart, The very fact that you are asking this speaks volumes. The Performance Engines website calls you the Sales Manager. Holding this position in the company and taking no action to remedy the situation defines you as complicit. So where is my money ??? Larry E. James 425-885-1200 800-783-9782 From: SFeatherstone [mailto:stuart(at)performanceengines.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 4:43 PM Subject: RE: the money you owe me Larry, Would you kindly explain. If I do not own any part of Performance Engines. And. I make no financial decisions regarding any part of Performance Engines. And. The information provided to me comes only from the owner of Performance Engines. How exactly did I become a crook? Thank you, Stuart Featherstone _____ From: Larry James [mailto:larry(at)ncproto.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:09 PM Cc: 'Sara Halcomb' Subject: the money you owe me Importance: High Ron and Stuart, My public attack exposing you and your crooked business is quickly spinning up. Within the last 1-1/2 days you have lost 3 engine sales that I am aware of and directly responsible for. It seems people are reluctant to deal with you because you don't return deposits for engines when you don't deliver those engines. I am just getting started. If you wish to control damage you can overnight me a check for the full amount you owe me. I will not slow or halt my work exposing you until all funds have cleared my bank. Larry E. James New Concepts Redmond, WA 425-885-1200 800-783-9782 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dale Walter" <dale1rv6(at)comcast.net>
Subject: RE: the money you owe me
Date: May 01, 2008
Stuart, You need to help your company succeed. Find the strengths and build on them. Be honest about the weaknesses and work to resolve them. If you ask people for help, in an honest way, many would lend a hand. Larry did, and what did you and your team do for him? This will bring out all the lurkers, there will be no more hiding. I too have worked with ex cons, and I did my best to get them on the right path. Do the right thing; before this explodes. Ask your management team to send him $100 a week or even $50 and see the difference in public support. We want good engine builders, Dale _____ From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry James Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 8:22 PM Subject: RV-List: RE: the money you owe me Hi Stuart, The very fact that you are asking this speaks volumes. The Performance Engines website calls you the Sales Manager. Holding this position in the company and taking no action to remedy the situation defines you as complicit. So where is my money ??? Larry E. James 425-885-1200 800-783-9782 From: SFeatherstone [mailto:stuart(at)performanceengines.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 4:43 PM Subject: RE: the money you owe me Larry, Would you kindly explain. If I do not own any part of Performance Engines. And. I make no financial decisions regarding any part of Performance Engines. And. The information provided to me comes only from the owner of Performance Engines. How exactly did I become a crook? Thank you, Stuart Featherstone _____ From: Larry James [mailto:larry(at)ncproto.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:09 PM Cc: 'Sara Halcomb' Subject: the money you owe me Importance: High Ron and Stuart, My public attack exposing you and your crooked business is quickly spinning up. Within the last 1-1/2 days you have lost 3 engine sales that I am aware of and directly responsible for. It seems people are reluctant to deal with you because you don't return deposits for engines when you don't deliver those engines. I am just getting started. If you wish to control damage you can overnight me a check for the full amount you owe me. I will not slow or halt my work exposing you until all funds have cleared my bank. Larry E. James New Concepts Redmond, WA 425-885-1200 800-783-9782 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: the money you owe me
Date: May 01, 2008
Dale, Larry posted a personal reply from Stuart to the list. A reply won't get to him unless you send it to stuart(at)performanceengines.com or unless he monitors the list which he probably doesn't,.. otherwise this would be important to them. Good Luck Bill S 7a _____ From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Walter Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 7:58 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: the money you owe me Stuart, You need to help your company succeed. Find the strengths and build on them. Be honest about the weaknesses and work to resolve them. If you ask people for help, in an honest way, many would lend a hand. Larry did, and what did you and your team do for him? This will bring out all the lurkers, there will be no more hiding. I too have worked with ex cons, and I did my best to get them on the right path. Do the right thing; before this explodes. Ask your management team to send him $100 a week or even $50 and see the difference in public support. We want good engine builders, Dale _____ From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry James Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 8:22 PM Subject: RV-List: RE: the money you owe me Hi Stuart, The very fact that you are asking this speaks volumes. The Performance Engines website calls you the Sales Manager. Holding this position in the company and taking no action to remedy the situation defines you as complicit. So where is my money ??? Larry E. James 425-885-1200 800-783-9782 From: SFeatherstone [mailto:stuart(at)performanceengines.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 4:43 PM Subject: RE: the money you owe me Larry, Would you kindly explain. If I do not own any part of Performance Engines. And. I make no financial decisions regarding any part of Performance Engines. And. The information provided to me comes only from the owner of Performance Engines. How exactly did I become a crook? Thank you, Stuart Featherstone _____ From: Larry James [mailto:larry(at)ncproto.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:09 PM Cc: 'Sara Halcomb' Subject: the money you owe me Importance: High Ron and Stuart, My public attack exposing you and your crooked business is quickly spinning up. Within the last 1-1/2 days you have lost 3 engine sales that I am aware of and directly responsible for. It seems people are reluctant to deal with you because you don't return deposits for engines when you don't deliver those engines. I am just getting started. If you wish to control damage you can overnight me a check for the full amount you owe me. I will not slow or halt my work exposing you until all funds have cleared my bank. Larry E. James New Concepts Redmond, WA 425-885-1200 800-783-9782 http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry James" <larry(at)ncproto.com>
Subject: RE: the money you owe me
Date: May 02, 2008
Dale, Thank you and right on !!!! The support I am seeing and hearing on this puts a big smile on my face and in my chest. Thank you. This was the only correspondence I've had from Performance to date and nothing has yet been done. I have more in the hopper and you are right Dale; it will explode soon unless it is rectified straight away. Larry From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Walter Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 5:58 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: the money you owe me Stuart, You need to help your company succeed. Find the strengths and build on them. Be honest about the weaknesses and work to resolve them. If you ask people for help, in an honest way, many would lend a hand. Larry did, and what did you and your team do for him? This will bring out all the lurkers, there will be no more hiding. I too have worked with ex cons, and I did my best to get them on the right path. Do the right thing; before this explodes. Ask your management team to send him $100 a week or even $50 and see the difference in public support. We want good engine builders, Dale _____ From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry James Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 8:22 PM Subject: RV-List: RE: the money you owe me Hi Stuart, The very fact that you are asking this speaks volumes. The Performance Engines website calls you the Sales Manager. Holding this position in the company and taking no action to remedy the situation defines you as complicit. So where is my money ??? Larry E. James 425-885-1200 800-783-9782 From: SFeatherstone [mailto:stuart(at)performanceengines.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 4:43 PM Subject: RE: the money you owe me Larry, Would you kindly explain. If I do not own any part of Performance Engines. And. I make no financial decisions regarding any part of Performance Engines. And. The information provided to me comes only from the owner of Performance Engines. How exactly did I become a crook? Thank you, Stuart Featherstone _____ From: Larry James [mailto:larry(at)ncproto.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:09 PM Cc: 'Sara Halcomb' Subject: the money you owe me Importance: High Ron and Stuart, My public attack exposing you and your crooked business is quickly spinning up. Within the last 1-1/2 days you have lost 3 engine sales that I am aware of and directly responsible for. It seems people are reluctant to deal with you because you don't return deposits for engines when you don't deliver those engines. I am just getting started. If you wish to control damage you can overnight me a check for the full amount you owe me. I will not slow or halt my work exposing you until all funds have cleared my bank. Larry E. James New Concepts Redmond, WA 425-885-1200 800-783-9782 http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: the money you owe me
Date: May 02, 2008
... Yes there is always two sides to a story.. So "Performance Engines" ... Did you get paid for a engine you have not delivered ?? On the web you look like a real company with lots of "serious" people" using your engines ... So why this problem ?? Should I buy my RV6 engine from you ??? Jan ... Slowly building a RV6 ... _____ From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry James Sent: 02 May 2008 01:22 Subject: RV-List: RE: the money you owe me Hi Stuart, The very fact that you are asking this speaks volumes. The Performance Engines website calls you the Sales Manager. Holding this position in the company and taking no action to remedy the situation defines you as complicit. So where is my money ??? Larry E. James 425-885-1200 800-783-9782 From: SFeatherstone [mailto:stuart(at)performanceengines.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 4:43 PM Subject: RE: the money you owe me Larry, Would you kindly explain. If I do not own any part of Performance Engines. And. I make no financial decisions regarding any part of Performance Engines. And. The information provided to me comes only from the owner of Performance Engines. How exactly did I become a crook? Thank you, Stuart Featherstone _____ From: Larry James [mailto:larry(at)ncproto.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:09 PM Cc: 'Sara Halcomb' Subject: the money you owe me Importance: High Ron and Stuart, My public attack exposing you and your crooked business is quickly spinning up. Within the last 1-1/2 days you have lost 3 engine sales that I am aware of and directly responsible for. It seems people are reluctant to deal with you because you don't return deposits for engines when you don't deliver those engines. I am just getting started. If you wish to control damage you can overnight me a check for the full amount you owe me. I will not slow or halt my work exposing you until all funds have cleared my bank. Larry E. James New Concepts Redmond, WA 425-885-1200 800-783-9782 http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:q="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/" xmlns:D="DAV:" xmlns:x2="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/excel/2003/xml" xmlns:ois="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/ois/" xmlns:dir="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/directory/" xmlns:ds="http://www.w3.org/2000/09/xmldsig#" xmlns:dsp="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/dsp" xmlns:udc="http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" xmlns:sub="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/2002/1/alerts/ " xmlns:ec="http://www.w3.org/2001/04/xmlenc#" xmlns:sp="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/" xmlns:sps="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:udcxf="http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/xmlfile" xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:ns0="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/workflow/" xmlns:ns1="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/markup-compatibility/2006 " xmlns:ns2="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns:ns3="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/package/2006/relationship s" xmlns:ns4="http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/2006/types" xmlns:ns5="http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/2006/message s">

… Yes there is always two sides to a story..

So “Performance Engines” … Did you get paid for a engine you have not delivered ?? On the web you look like a real company with lots of “serious” people” using your engines …

So why this problem ??

Should I buy my RV6 engine from you ???

Jan … Slowly building a RV6 …

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry James
Sent: 02 May 2008 01:22
To: 'SFeatherstone'
Subject: RV-List: RE: the money you owe me

Hi Stuart,

The very fact that you are asking this speaks volumes.

The Performance Engines website calls you the Sales Manager. Holding this position in the company and taking no action to remedy the situation defines you as complicit. So where is my money ???

Larry E. James

425-885-1200

800-783-9782

From: SFeatherstone [mailto:stuart(at)performanceengines.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 4:43 PM
To: 'Larry James'
Subject: RE: the money you owe me

Larry,

Would you kindly explain.

If I do not own any part of Performance Engines.

And.

I make no financial decisions regarding any part of Performance Engines.

And.

The information provided to me comes only from the owner of Performance Engines.

How exactly did I become a crook?

Thank you,

Stuart Featherstone

From: Larry James [mailto:larry(at)ncproto.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:09 PM
To: 'Ron Munson'; stuart(at)performanceengines.com; info(at)PerformanceEngines.com
Cc: 'Sara Halcomb'
Subject: the money you owe me
Importance: High

Ron and Stuart,

My public attack exposing you and your crooked business is quickly spinning up. Within the last 1-1/2 days you have lost 3 engine sales that I am aware of and directly responsible for. It seems people are reluctant to deal with you because you don’t return deposits for engines when you don’t deliver those engines. I am just getting started.

If you wish to control damage you can overnight me a check for the full amount you owe me. I will not slow or halt my work exposing you until all funds have cleared my bank.

Larry E. James

New Concepts

Redmond, WA

425-885-1200

800-783-9782

________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Strong" <gjstrong(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Untouched RV10 Empennage Kit For Sale
Date: May 03, 2008
I have an untouched Vans RV10 empennage kit for sale. I received it about 6 weeks ago, opened the crate and removed packing to inventory all the parts. Other than removing packing, nothing was touched. All parts, parts bags, manual, prints, etc are brand new as received from Vans. I would like to sell it pick up only in Blaine, MN (Minneapolis northern suburb) so I don't have to re-pack all the foam pieces. I do have the original shipping crate and the parts were carefully put back to avoid any damage. I paid $3500 for the kit plus it includes an complete extra set of plans (I think I paid another $50 for this but I can't be sure). I'm selling it due to having to purchase my partner out of my other aircraft (Baron). It is listed on eBay (item #320247792628) with a starting bid of $2000 and a buy it now at $3,000. Gary gjstrongNOSPAMcomcast.net - replace NOSPAM with @ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 03, 2008
From: Dan <dan(at)rdan.com>
Subject: RV-8 Quick built kit for sale
Well I;m going to sell my -8 Quick build kit, Fuselage, wings and tail, Tail is 95% done, floors and some basic details have been done in the fuselage, I have not touched the wings. This is 2 years old I have only a few hundred hours in to it, it has been fun but for me my dream will come at a better time in my life. Until then,, The plane is in Lake Stevens Washington. near Seattle / Arlington. new from Vans is about $24,500.00 and 3-4 months out. Quick build quality looks excellent. Great jump start for a builder. Will possibly trade for antique tail-drager cub, champ, Citabra or ? best offer over 20k Dan 425 754 0112 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 03, 2008
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: For Sale - Navaid AP-1 Autopilot - New!
Fellow Homebuilders, I have decided to go with a two-axis auto pilot in my RV-4 project and am selling my single-axis Navid AP-1. This is a brand new unit with all of accessories, manual, analog Loran/GPS input, and S-2 servo. It has never been installed. No scratches. Current price from Navaid is $1300 US. I will sell for $1100 plus shipping to anywhere in the world. I can accept Visa/MC. First come, first served. Please email me off list at dralle(at)matronics.com if you are interested. Below is a picture of the actual unit and included accessories. Matt Dralle List Admin / RV-4 Builder Emacs! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JFLEISC(at)aol.com
Date: May 04, 2008
Subject: Proseal remover?
Anyone have a method for chemically removing Proseal from the inside of a tank? Mine are over 18 years old. I bought the plane used 12 years ago and the right tank had a minor leak back then and, to my surprise ;), it hasn't gotten any better. Anyway it's not minor any more and I have the tank off and have a couple gallons of MEK in it but its not doing anything fast enough (that may be good for finish cleaning but not for bulk removal). Paint stripper maybe? I don't want to open them up just yet because if I have to scrub it off I know I'll miss something and have to do the process again in the middle of resealing. Thanks. Jim **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 04, 2008
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org>
Subject: Langley, BC, Fly-in June 21
The Langley, BC fly-in will be Saturday, June 21. This is the annual fly-in of VAF Western Canada Wing. Langley, BC, is about 20 nm north of Bellingham, WA. We generally have a good turnout of RVs from all over BC, and a good contingent from the U.S., too. Details are on our web page, <http://www.vansairforce.org/CYNJ> For U.S. visitors, we also have all the information you need on border crossing procedures. It's really not a big deal, although you do now need a passport to return to the U.S <http://www.vansairforce.org/misc/us_arrive> I hope lots of RV-Listers can make it. --- Tedd McHenry Van's Air Force Western Canada Wing tedd(at)vansairforce.org www.vansairforce.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 04, 2008
From: "Bob J." <rocketbob(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Proseal remover?
There's a product called SkyRestore that will soften up proseal. I've never used it but here's a link to some: http://aerosafe.com/shopping/start.php?browse=1&cat=2 Let us know if it works! Regards, Bob Japundza RV-6 flying F1 under const. On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 2:05 PM, wrote: > Anyone have a method for chemically removing Proseal from the inside of a > tank? Mine are over 18 years old. I bought the plane used 12 years ago and > the right tank had a minor leak back then and, to my surprise ;), it hasn't > gotten any better. Anyway it's not minor any more and I have the tank off > and have a couple gallons of MEK in it but its not doing anything fast > enough (that may be good for finish cleaning but not for bulk removal). > Paint stripper maybe? I don't want to open them up just yet because if I > have to scrub it off I know I'll miss something and have to do the process > again in the middle of resealing. Thanks. > > Jim > > > ------------------------------ > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at > AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>. > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 04, 2008
From: RICHARD MILLER <rickpegser(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Proseal remover?
stop right now. you have a leak go after that leak soaking the tank will only cause more leaks and require that you disassemble the tank to cure them. call me and i will walk you thru tank repair. 559-270-7113 rick m a+p,i/a JFLEISC(at)aol.com wrote: Anyone have a method for chemically removing Proseal from the inside of a tank? Mine are over 18 years old. I bought the plane used 12 years ago and the right tank had a minor leak back then and, to my surprise ;), it hasn't gotten any better. Anyway it's not minor any more and I have the tank off and have a couple gallons of MEK in it but its not doing anything fast enough (that may be good for finish cleaning but not for bulk removal). Paint stripper maybe? I don't want to open them up just yet because if I have to scrub it off I know I'll miss something and have to do the process again in the middle of resealing. Thanks. Jim --------------------------------- Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 04, 2008
From: RICHARD MILLER <rickpegser(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Proseal remover?
stop right now. you have a leak go after that leak soaking the tank will only cause more leaks and require that you disassemble the tank to cure them. call me and i will walk you thru tank repair. 559-270-7113 rick m a+p,i/a JFLEISC(at)aol.com wrote: Anyone have a method for chemically removing Proseal from the inside of a tank? Mine are over 18 years old. I bought the plane used 12 years ago and the right tank had a minor leak back then and, to my surprise ;), it hasn't gotten any better. Anyway it's not minor any more and I have the tank off and have a couple gallons of MEK in it but its not doing anything fast enough (that may be good for finish cleaning but not for bulk removal). Paint stripper maybe? I don't want to open them up just yet because if I have to scrub it off I know I'll miss something and have to do the process again in the middle of resealing. Thanks. Jim --------------------------------- Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JFLEISC(at)aol.com
Date: May 04, 2008
Subject: Re: Proseal remover?
In a message dated 5/4/2008 5:17:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rickpegser(at)yahoo.com writes: stop right now. you have a leak go after that leak soaking the tank will only cause more leaks and require that you disassemble the tank to cure them. I probably didn't make myself clear. I had a small leak when I first got the plane. Now I have dozens of them. I already have the tanks off (along with the wings and fuselage in my barn). I have a laundry list of other repairs and updates I have been putting off for years and now is the time. The tank thing was out of hand before I did anything. This -4 has nearly 2000 hard hours on it. Jim **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 04, 2008
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RV-4 Firewall Modification / Governor Retrofit...
Hi Listers, I'm working on the prop governor firewall retrofit on my RV-4 firewall and its actually is coming out pretty nice. Here are a few pictures of what's involved if you've not yet had this pleasure... http://www.matronics.com/MattsRV4/MiscPictures/GovernorCutout1.jpg http://www.matronics.com/MattsRV4/MiscPictures/GovernorCutout2.jpg http://www.matronics.com/MattsRV4/MiscPictures/GovernorCutout3.jpg http://www.matronics.com/MattsRV4/MiscPictures/GovernorCutout4.jpg http://www.matronics.com/MattsRV4/MiscPictures/GovernorCutout5.jpg http://www.matronics.com/MattsRV4/MiscPictures/GovernorCutout6.jpg http://www.matronics.com/MattsRV4/MiscPictures/GovernorCutout7.jpg So here's my question: What type of rivets are used for the retrofit? Considering that I will be using that yucky, gray gunk to seal everything coupled with the fact that access to both sides of the rivets will be restricted at best, I'm wondering if some pop rivets might be in order? I note that the type of rivet isn't called out in the little instruction sheet that came with the retro kit (a flat sheet of stainless.) Anyway, what's the consensus on using pop rivets here? If it seems okay, what type would be best? As always, thanks to all for the help, Matt Dralle RV-4 #1763, N442RV to be... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JFLEISC(at)aol.com
Date: May 04, 2008
Subject: Re: RV-4 Firewall Modification / Governor Retrofit...
In a message dated 5/4/2008 6:54:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dralle(at)matronics.com writes: everything coupled with the fact that access to both sides of the rivets will be restricted at best I did one of those retrofits and, assuming the engine is out, I had no problem with standard AN rivets even bucking them myself. Jim **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: THOMAS PHY <thomphy(at)msn.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 05/04/08
Date: May 05, 2008
Hi Matt, The flap that you bent down to form the back wall. Can that be forward of t he new insert? It would look better and be easier to keep clean of gunk (th at's a technical term). Thomas Phy > Hi Listers,> > I'm working on the prop governor firewall retrofit on my R V-4 firewall > and its actually is coming out pretty nice. Here are a few p ictures of > what's involved if you've not yet had this pleasure...> > http ://www.matronics.com/MattsRV4/MiscPictures/GovernorCutout1.jpg> http://www. matronics.com/MattsRV4/MiscPictures/GovernorCutout2.jpg> http://www.matroni cs.com/MattsRV4/MiscPictures/GovernorCutout3.jpg> http://www.matronics.com/ MattsRV4/MiscPictures/GovernorCutout4.jpg> http://www.matronics.com/MattsRV 4/MiscPictures/GovernorCutout5.jpg> http://www.matronics.com/MattsRV4/MiscP ictures/GovernorCutout6.jpg> http://www.matronics.com/MattsRV4/MiscPictures /GovernorCutout7.jpg> > > So here's my question: What type of rivets are us ed for the retrofit?> > Considering that I will be using that yucky, gray g unk to seal> everything coupled with the fact that access to both sides of the> rivets will be restricted at best, I'm wondering if some pop rivets> m ight be in order? I note that the type of rivet isn't called out in> the li ttle instruction sheet that came with the retro kit (a flat sheet> of stain less.) Anyway, what's the consensus on using pop rivets here?> If it seems okay, what type would be best?> > As always, thanks to all for the help,> > Matt Dralle> RV-4 #1763, N442RV to be...> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 05, 2008
From: Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Proseal remover?
Jim Putting MEK in the tank has only made your problem worse. You might have turned a single leak into several by adding MEK to the tank. You had better contact Richard and let him walk you through how to repair that leak. Charlie Kuss --- On Sun, 5/4/08, JFLEISC(at)aol.com wrote: > From: JFLEISC(at)aol.com <JFLEISC(at)aol.com> > Subject: RV-List: Proseal remover? > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Sunday, May 4, 2008, 2:05 PM > Anyone have a method for chemically removing Proseal from > the inside of a > tank? Mine are over 18 years old. I bought the plane used > 12 years ago and the > right tank had a minor leak back then and, to my surprise > ;), it hasn't > gotten any better. Anyway it's not minor any more and I > have the tank off and > have a couple gallons of MEK in it but its not doing > anything fast enough (that > may be good for finish cleaning but not for bulk removal). > Paint stripper > maybe? I don't want to open them up just yet because if > I have to scrub it off I > know I'll miss something and have to do the process > again in the middle of > resealing. Thanks. > > Jim > > > > **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get > new twists on family > favorites at AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: crooks at Performance Engines
From: "steveadams" <dr_steve_adams(at)yahoo.com>
Date: May 05, 2008
Sorry to hear about your situation. I had a similar situation (not aviation related) about 6 years ago. Went through all your going through, then went to court and won a $22,000 judgment. Unfortunately, a judgment against them means little to people like that. In all over 6 years I've received $3000 and been back to court 5 times. In my opinion, exposing him as you're doing and impacting his business is the best and probably the only way to really get his attention. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181305#181305 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 06, 2008
From: SCOTT SPENCER <aerokinetic(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Proseal remover?
I remember hearing many years ago in A&P school that Proseal (890) has no known solvent. There are a number of things that will cause it to swell and soften it a little, MEK being one of them, but there is nothing that will melt it away. Sounds indeed like you made a small problem into a big one. I would pull the tank and remove the aft wall or cut holes in it and scrape out all the (now soft) proseal with a phenolic scraper, and then reseal the tank with a fresh batch. Then seal the aft wall in place again or seal covers on the holes. I had to reseal one of my tanks in the same way a number of years back, and chose to cut circular holes to work through and then made covers for them. Still holding. Scott RV-4 flying off and on since '92 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 06, 2008
From: RICHARD MILLER <rickpegser(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Proseal remover?
Since we seem to have so many complaints about fuel leaks, lets cover fuel tank 101. static loads on a fuel tank are less then .5 psi. duct tape can hold .5 psi. dynamic loads are variable due to high g loading and can reach 4 psi, with tank destruction emanate. the problem with checking tanks is the static pressure loading is applied to all surfaces and they need to be stressed to handle that load. most are not ie, the caps. next problem is the inherent movement of the structure as it flexes. tearing the sealant bonds. so lets assume that you built it close to right and now want to test it. water, fuel, any material with the exception of the original sealant will contaminate the joint during testing. so how do we remove the contaminates? we don't contaminate in the first place. the sealants we are using are sensitive to contaminates so air or better nitrogen is the testing medium of choice. after inspecting aircraft with properly applied pro-seal that had over twenty years in service, the stuff sticks. sloshing does not work and will result in a crash, the unfortunate part of this is that the pilot is always the first person at the crash site.. fire and medic support might take a little longer arriving. do not slosh tanks types of leaks. seam leaks, very rare, normally caused by poor construction, or extreme g loading. fastener leaks, more common also caused by high g loading and flexing of the structure, compounded but poor sealing practices. all tank fasteners are to be installed wet. and then sealed on the inside. access plate/fitting leaks, most common. cause improperly applied sealant, wrong nut plates , they should be all domed and sealed. too long of screw that goes through the nut plate dome. bad gaskets, failed orings. rotation of a fitting after sealant has dried. always use two wrenches when removing lines. the primary problem with tank repair is the lack of structural integrity of this tank. riveted tanks and the repair tricks where designed around the larger transport type aircraft. pro-seal sticks well and can be a problem to break the seams apart without disturbing/destroying the structure. the best way that i have found to stop small leaks at fasteners and seams is to apply a heavy vacuum to the outside of the tank at the effected area to draw any remaining fuel out and and suck the sealant in to the void. additional rivets added along seam lines while still wet helps to. sealant application tricks. clean /clean /clean. pro-seal dose not like oil and most primers but loves a good cleaned alodined surface. mechanical grip/ light scuff on a flaying surface helps with adhesion tape applied along side the joints to assist with clean up gloves, this stuff does not like to come off and mek is bad for you proper fit of parts, don't expect pro-seal to fill gaps. don't use to much. or you will get a wavy structure. use type a for seams it helps with waves and type b for fillets and fastener sealing don't exceed the pot life mix it right and use the correct proportions a good scale really helps. use the longest pot life you can, i have found that 1/2 stuff to be almost useless for most jobs. the proper place for sealant is on the inside of the tank not globed on the outside beside it looks ugly. tips of opening seams sharpend putty knives are great but be sure to round the corners to help prevent gouges. take your time here. gentle is better. removal of sealant scotch bright disks work great. wear a mask. and realodine after done. tank testing, quick easy and cheap connect air/nitrogen supply to vent connect clear hose to drain about ten feet worth loop hose to floor and fill with water until you have a loop with three feet high on both sides add nitrogen until the water is four feet higher on one side then the other. you now have 2 psi in the tank. care should be taken here, fill slowly. spray the seams with soapy water and look for bubbles. use hand soap or aircraft soap, some soaps are bad for alum. how to find that damn mystery leak i have tried everything else. sometimes really small leaks are the worse to find, but one way to track them down is to apply dye-pen developer to the outside of the tank it will show up any tiny leaks. over a couple of days. and this ends fuel tank 101 hope it helps. rick miller --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Patrick Kelley" <webmaster(at)flion.com>
Subject: Proseal remover?
Date: May 06, 2008
Domed nut plates? Van's doesn't supply those or call them out in the plans. I put a little fuel lube on the screws that hold the access plate on and I had no leaks when testing the tanks (except once when I forgot to tighten them down). Should I be concerned? Also, I'm getting to the point where I'll be hooking my fuel system to the engine. Airflow performance calls for purging the tanks and lines with fuel before doing this. What is the best way to do this? Will it hurt to use my electric pump to move the fuel, or will the filter be sufficient to protect it during the initial purge? Any replies, not just Richard's, will be appreciated. Patrick Kelley - RV-6A - Engine hung, beginning FWF process From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RICHARD MILLER Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 6:54 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover? Since we seem to have so many complaints about fuel leaks, lets cover fuel tank 101. *** stuff snipped *** types of leaks. *** more stuff snipped *** access plate/fitting leaks, most common. cause improperly applied sealant, wrong nut plates , they should be all domed and sealed. too long of screw that goes through the nut plate dome. bad gaskets, failed orings. rotation of a fitting after sealant has dried. always use two wrenches when removing lines. *** remaining text snipped *** ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jerry2DT(at)aol.com
Date: May 06, 2008
Subject: Re: Crooks at Performance Engines
Just another lesson in sending large sums to small businesses before delivery of product. It is common that these small vendors use your money to stay afloat and then hope more $$$ comes in to fill your order. Of course this is a terrible business practice, and puts you and them at risk, but happens anyway. Using escrow is one answer, and if they refuse escrow, that tells you the story. One prominent builder has said online that he doesn't have a pile of money available if someone wants a deposit returned, because it's already spent... maybe on his salary... This is not to excuse in any way the practices of Performance Engines... My Two Bits, Jerry Cochran RV-6a N18XP In a message dated 5/6/2008 12:02:26 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, rv-list(at)matronics.com writes: Subject: RV-List: Re: crooks at Performance Engines From: "steveadams" <dr_steve_adams(at)yahoo.com> Sorry to hear about your situation. I had a similar situation (not aviation related) about 6 years ago. Went through all your going through, then went to court and won a $22,000 judgment. Unfortunately, a judgment against them means little to people like that. In all over 6 years I've received $3000 and been back to court 5 times. In my opinion, exposing him as you're doing and impacting his business is the best and probably the only way to really get his attention. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181305#181305 **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Proseal remover?
Date: May 06, 2008
Hi Richard, I will be doing my hand build tanks later on this summer. I have read your article with great interest. First ... I have bought the domed nut plates... they are used on commercial planes from what I understand ... and should make a perfect seal with a "O" ring .. Then cover the nut plate after fitting with pro-seal as a extra safeguard against leaks. Do you recommend alodining the tank skin and the ribs ?? That is a new one to me ... I thought cleaning with Aluprep ...rinse with water ... and scuff the seams is fine ?? Appreciate you comments on this Best regards Jan _____ From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RICHARD MILLER Sent: 06 May 2008 14:54 Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover? Since we seem to have so many complaints about fuel leaks, lets cover fuel tank 101. static loads on a fuel tank are less then .5 psi. duct tape can hold .5 psi. dynamic loads are variable due to high g loading and can reach 4 psi, with tank destruction emanate. the problem with checking tanks is the static pressure loading is applied to all surfaces and they need to be stressed to handle that load. most are not ie, the caps. next problem is the inherent movement of the structure as it flexes. tearing the sealant bonds. so lets assume that you built it close to right and now want to test it. water, fuel, any material with the exception of the original sealant will contaminate the joint during testing. so how do we remove the contaminates? we don't contaminate in the first place. the sealants we are using are sensitive to contaminates so air or better nitrogen is the testing medium of choice. after inspecting aircraft with properly applied pro-seal that had over twenty years in service, the stuff sticks. sloshing does not work and will result in a crash, the unfortunate part of this is that the pilot is always the first person at the crash site.. fire and medic support might take a little longer arriving. do not slosh tanks types of leaks. seam leaks, very rare, normally caused by poor construction, or extreme g loading. fastener leaks, more common also caused by high g loading and flexing of the structure, compounded but poor sealing practices. all tank fasteners are to be installed wet. and then sealed on the inside. access plate/fitting leaks, most common. cause improperly applied sealant, wrong nut plates , they should be all domed and sealed. too long of screw that goes through the nut plate dome. bad gaskets, failed orings. rotation of a fitting after sealant has dried. always use two wrenches when removing lines. the primary problem with tank repair is the lack of structural integrity of this tank. riveted tanks and the repair tricks where designed around the larger transport type aircraft. pro-seal sticks well and can be a problem to break the seams apart without disturbing/destroying the structure. the best way that i have found to stop small leaks at fasteners and seams is to apply a heavy vacuum to the outside of the tank at the effected area to draw any remaining fuel out and and suck the sealant in to the void. additional rivets added along seam lines while still wet helps to. sealant application tricks. clean /clean /clean. pro-seal dose not like oil and most primers but loves a good cleaned alodined surface. mechanical grip/ light scuff on a flaying surface helps with adhesion tape applied along side the joints to assist with clean up gloves, this stuff does not like to come off and mek is bad for you proper fit of parts, don't expect pro-seal to fill gaps. don't use to much. or you will get a wavy structure. use type a for seams it helps with waves and type b for fillets and fastener sealing don't exceed the pot life mix it right and use the correct proportions a good scale really helps. use the longest pot life you can, i have found that 1/2 stuff to be almost useless for most jobs. the proper place for sealant is on the inside of the tank not globed on the outside beside it looks ugly. tips of opening seams sharpend putty knives are great but be sure to round the corners to help prevent gouges. take your time here. gentle is better. removal of sealant scotch bright disks work great. wear a mask. and realodine after done. tank testing, quick easy and cheap connect air/nitrogen supply to vent connect clear hose to drain about ten feet worth loop hose to floor and fill with water until you have a loop with three feet high on both sides add nitrogen until the water is four feet higher on one side then the other. you now have 2 psi in the tank. care should be taken here, fill slowly. spray the seams with soapy water and look for bubbles. use hand soap or aircraft soap, some soaps are bad for alum. how to find that damn mystery leak i have tried everything else. sometimes really small leaks are the worse to find, but one way to track them down is to apply dye-pen developer to the outside of the tank it will show up any tiny leaks. over a couple of days. and this ends fuel tank 101 hope it helps. rick miller _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

Hi Richard,

I will be doing my hand build tanks later on this summer. I have read your article with great interest. First … I have bought the domed nut plates… they are used on commercial planes from what I understand … and should make a perfect seal with a “O” ring .. Then cover the nut plate after fitting with pro-seal as a extra safeguard against leaks.

Do you recommend alodining the tank skin and the ribs ?? That is a new one to me … I thought cleaning with Aluprep …rinse with water … and scuff the seams is fine ??

Appreciate you comments on this

Best regards

Jan

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RICHARD MILLER
Sent: 06 May 2008 14:54
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover?

Since we seem to have so many complaints about fuel leaks, lets cover fuel tank 101.

static loads on a fuel tank are less then .5 psi. duct tape can hold .5 psi. dynamic loads are variable due to high g loading and can reach 4

psi, with tank destruction emanate. the problem with checking tanks is the static pressure loading is applied to all surfaces and they need to be stressed to handle that load. most are not ie, the caps.

next problem is the inherent movement of the structure as it flexes. tearing the sealant bonds.

so lets assume that you built it close to right and now want to test it. water, fuel, any material with the exception of the original sealant will contaminate the joint during testing. so how do we remove the contaminates? we don't contaminate in the first place. the sealants we are using are sensitive to contaminates so air or better nitrogen is the testing medium of choice.

after inspecting aircraft with properly applied pro-seal that had over twenty years in service, the stuff sticks. sloshing does not work and will result in a crash, the unfortunate part of this is that the pilot is always the first person at the crash site.. fire and medic support might take a little longer arriving. do not slosh tanks

types of leaks.

seam leaks, very rare, normally caused by poor construction, or extreme g loading.

fastener leaks, more common also caused by high g loading and flexing of the structure, compounded but poor sealing practices. all tank fasteners are to be installed wet. and then sealed on the inside.

access plate/fitting leaks,  most common. cause improperly applied sealant, wrong nut plates , they should be all domed and sealed. too long of screw that goes through the nut plate dome. bad gaskets, failed orings. rotation of a fitting after sealant has dried. always use two wrenches when removing lines.

the primary problem with tank repair is the lack of structural integrity of this tank. riveted tanks and the repair tricks where designed around the larger transport type aircraft. pro-seal sticks well and can be a problem to break the seams apart without disturbing/destroying the structure.

the best way that i have found to stop small leaks at fasteners and seams is to apply a heavy vacuum to the outside of the tank at the effected area to draw any remaining fuel out and and suck the sealant in to the void. additional rivets added along seam lines while still wet helps to.

sealant application tricks.

clean /clean /clean. pro-seal dose not like oil and most primers but loves a good cleaned alodined surface.

mechanical grip/ light scuff on a flaying surface helps with adhesion

tape applied along side the joints to assist with clean up

gloves, this stuff does not like to come off and mek is bad for you

proper fit of parts, don't expect pro-seal to fill gaps.

don't use to much. or you will get a wavy structure.

use type a for seams it helps with waves and type b for fillets and fastener sealing

don't exceed the pot life

mix it right and use the correct proportions a good scale really helps.

use the longest pot life you can, i have found that 1/2 stuff to be almost useless for most jobs.

the proper place for sealant is on the inside of the tank not globed on the outside beside it looks ugly.

tips of opening seams

sharpend putty knives are great but be sure to round the corners to help prevent gouges. take your time here. gentle is better.

removal of sealant

scotch bright disks work great. wear a mask. and realodine after done.

tank testing, quick easy and cheap

connect air/nitrogen supply to vent

connect clear hose to drain about ten feet worth

loop hose to floor and fill with water until you have a loop with three feet high on both sides

add nitrogen until the water is four feet higher on one side then the other. you now have 2 psi in the tank. care should be taken here, fill slowly.

spray the seams with soapy water and look for bubbles. use hand soap or aircraft soap, some soaps are bad for alum.

how to find that damn mystery leak i have tried everything else.

sometimes really small leaks are the worse to find, but one way to track them down is to apply dye-pen developer to the outside of the tank it will show up any tiny leaks. over a couple of days.

and this ends fuel tank 101 hope it helps.

rick miller

Be a better friend, newshound, and

http://www.matronics.com/ contribution

________________________________________________________________________________
From: FASTPILOTRV8(at)AOL.COM
Date: May 06, 2008
Subject: Help Alternator stops working at 2000 agl
I have been plagued with the intermittent problems for over 6 months. At 1500 to 2000 ft AGL the alternator quits. Sometimes blows the 5 amp circuit breaker that goes to the field, sometimes it just quits. On the ground she works fine, even at 2200 RPM with a full load. On again off again with a full load , high speed taxi test. Yet, when I get in the air she quits at about 1500 AGL? I have a B&C Regulator model LR3C (older and has been repaired) and a B&C alternator plus there has been no technical help at B&C for the last two days (Tim quit and the boss is out of town) So has anyone had altermator problems and how did you fix it. I have replaced the battery behind rear baggage in my RV8 Replaced ground cable from the frame to the battery New bus bar with 1/4 studs from McMaster-Carr New heavier cable (Stein Air) from bus bar to B lead on alternator Removed 60 amp circuit breaker from system installed replaced with a firewall mounted DC 60 amp fuse All cables crimped and soldered at ring end only Glass panel from OP Technologies has no problem, CrossBow AHRS has no problem. Radios have no problem Help? any one have any ideas or experience with alternator gremlins Dane N838RV RV8a 378 hours **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 06, 2008
From: "Larry Bowen" <larry(at)bowenaero.com>
Subject: Re: Proseal remover?
FYI, I used domed nut plates on my RV-8 tanks....and had to cut a couple of them off because they interfered with the fuel pick-up. Sometimes second-guessing uncle Van doesn't pay off.... -- Larry Bowen Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:14 PM, jan wrote: > Hi Richard, > > > I will be doing my hand build tanks later on this summer. I have read you r > article with great interest. First =85 I have bought the domed nut plates =85 > they are used on commercial planes from what I understand =85 and should make > a perfect seal with a "O" ring .. Then cover the nut plate after fitting > with pro-seal as a extra safeguard against leaks. > > > Do you recommend alodining the tank skin and the ribs ?? That is a new on e > to me =85 I thought cleaning with Aluprep =85rinse with water =85 and scu ff the > seams is fine ?? > > > Appreciate you comments on this > > > Best regards > > > Jan > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *RICHARD MILLER > *Sent:* 06 May 2008 14:54 > *To:* rv-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV-List: Proseal remover? > > > Since we seem to have so many complaints about fuel leaks, lets cover fue l > tank 101. > > > static loads on a fuel tank are less then .5 psi. duct tape can hold .5 > psi. dynamic loads are variable due to high g loading and can reach 4 > > psi, with tank destruction emanate. the problem with checking tanks is > the static pressure loading is applied to all surfaces and they need to b e > stressed to handle that load. most are not ie, the caps. > > > next problem is the inherent movement of the structure as it flexes. > tearing the sealant bonds. > > > so lets assume that you built it close to right and now want to test it. > water, fuel, any material with the exception of the original sealant will > contaminate the joint during testing. so how do we remove the contaminate s? > we don't contaminate in the first place. the sealants we are using are > sensitive to contaminates so air or better nitrogen is the testing medium of > choice. > > > after inspecting aircraft with properly applied pro-seal that had over > twenty years in service, the stuff sticks. sloshing does not work and wil l > result in a crash, the unfortunate part of this is that the pilot is alwa ys > the first person at the crash site.. fire and medic support might take a > little longer arriving. *do not slosh tanks* > > > *types of leaks*. > > > seam leaks, very rare, normally caused by poor construction, or extreme g > loading. > > > fastener leaks, more common also caused by high g loading and flexing of > the structure, compounded but poor sealing practices. all tank fasteners are > to be installed wet. and then sealed on the inside. > > > access plate/fitting leaks, most common. cause improperly applied > sealant, wrong nut plates , they should be all domed and sealed. too lon g > of screw that goes through the nut plate dome. bad gaskets, failed orings . > rotation of a fitting after sealant has dried. always use two wrenches wh en > removing lines. > > > the primary problem with tank repair is the lack of structural integrity > of this tank. riveted tanks and the repair tricks where designed around t he > larger transport type aircraft. pro-seal sticks well and can be a problem to > break the seams apart without disturbing/destroying the structure. > > > the best way that i have found to stop small leaks at fasteners and seams > is to apply a heavy vacuum to the outside of the tank at the effected are a > to draw any remaining fuel out and and suck the sealant in to the void. > additional rivets added along seam lines while still wet helps to. > > > *sealant application tricks*. > > > clean /clean /clean. pro-seal dose not like oil and most primers but love s > a good cleaned alodined surface. > > > mechanical grip/ light scuff on a flaying surface helps with adhesion > > > tape applied along side the joints to assist with clean up > > > gloves, this stuff does not like to come off and mek is bad for you > > > proper fit of parts, don't expect pro-seal to fill gaps. > > > don't use to much. or you will get a wavy structure. > > > use type a for seams it helps with waves and type b for fillets and > fastener sealing > > > don't exceed the pot life > > > mix it right and use the correct proportions a good scale really helps. > > > use the longest pot life you can, i have found that 1/2 stuff to be almos t > useless for most jobs. > > > the proper place for sealant is on the inside of the tank not globed on > the outside beside it looks ugly. > > > *tips of opening seams* > > > sharpend putty knives are great but be sure to round the corners to help > prevent gouges. take your time here. gentle is better. > > > *removal of sealant* > > > scotch bright disks work great. wear a mask. and realodine after done. > > > *tank testing, quick easy and cheap* > > > connect air/nitrogen supply to vent > > connect clear hose to drain about ten feet worth > > loop hose to floor and fill with water until you have a loop with three > feet high on both sides > > add nitrogen until the water is four feet higher on one side then the > other. you now have 2 psi in the tank. care should be taken here, fill > slowly. > > spray the seams with soapy water and look for bubbles. use hand soap or > aircraft soap, some soaps are bad for alum. > > > *how to find that damn mystery leak i have tried everything else.* > > sometimes really small leaks are the worse to find, but one way to track > them down is to apply dye-pen developer to the outside of the tank it wil l > show up any tiny leaks. over a couple of days. > > > and this ends fuel tank 101 hope it helps. > > > rick miller > > > ------------------------------ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > * > =========== nics.com/Navigator?RV-List =========== =========== com/contribution =========== > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 06, 2008
From: Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Proseal remover?
Jan Alodining the interior of the tank does 2 things. It gives you some measure of corrosion protection (since you can't prime the interior). Alodine also improves the grip of the ProSeal to the aluminum. Charlie Kuss --- On Tue, 5/6/08, jan wrote: > From: jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk> > Subject: RE: RV-List: Proseal remover? > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, May 6, 2008, 2:14 PM > Hi Richard, > > > > I will be doing my hand build tanks later on this summer. I > have read your > article with great interest. First ... I have bought the > domed nut plates... > they are used on commercial planes from what I understand > ... and should > make a perfect seal with a "O" ring .. Then cover > the nut plate after > fitting with pro-seal as a extra safeguard against leaks. > > > > Do you recommend alodining the tank skin and the ribs ?? > That is a new one > to me ... I thought cleaning with Aluprep ...rinse with > water ... and scuff > the seams is fine ?? > > > > Appreciate you comments on this > > > > Best regards > > > > Jan > > > > _____ > > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > RICHARD MILLER > Sent: 06 May 2008 14:54 > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover? > > > > Since we seem to have so many complaints about fuel leaks, > lets cover fuel > tank 101. > > > > static loads on a fuel tank are less then .5 psi. duct tape > can hold .5 psi. > dynamic loads are variable due to high g loading and can > reach 4 > > psi, with tank destruction emanate. the problem with > checking tanks is the > static pressure loading is applied to all surfaces and they > need to be > stressed to handle that load. most are not ie, the caps. > > > > next problem is the inherent movement of the structure as > it flexes. tearing > the sealant bonds. > > > > so lets assume that you built it close to right and now > want to test it. > water, fuel, any material with the exception of the > original sealant will > contaminate the joint during testing. so how do we remove > the contaminates? > we don't contaminate in the first place. the sealants > we are using are > sensitive to contaminates so air or better nitrogen is the > testing medium of > choice. > > > > after inspecting aircraft with properly applied pro-seal > that had over > twenty years in service, the stuff sticks. sloshing does > not work and will > result in a crash, the unfortunate part of this is that the > pilot is always > the first person at the crash site.. fire and medic support > might take a > little longer arriving. do not slosh tanks > > > > types of leaks. > > > > seam leaks, very rare, normally caused by poor > construction, or extreme g > loading. > > > > fastener leaks, more common also caused by high g loading > and flexing of the > structure, compounded but poor sealing practices. all tank > fasteners are to > be installed wet. and then sealed on the inside. > > > > access plate/fitting leaks, most common. cause improperly > applied sealant, > wrong nut plates , they should be all domed and sealed. too > long of screw > that goes through the nut plate dome. bad gaskets, failed > orings. rotation > of a fitting after sealant has dried. always use two > wrenches when removing > lines. > > > > the primary problem with tank repair is the lack of > structural integrity of > this tank. riveted tanks and the repair tricks where > designed around the > larger transport type aircraft. pro-seal sticks well and > can be a problem to > break the seams apart without disturbing/destroying the > structure. > > > > the best way that i have found to stop small leaks at > fasteners and seams is > to apply a heavy vacuum to the outside of the tank at the > effected area to > draw any remaining fuel out and and suck the sealant in to > the void. > additional rivets added along seam lines while still wet > helps to. > > > > sealant application tricks. > > > > clean /clean /clean. pro-seal dose not like oil and most > primers but loves a > good cleaned alodined surface. > > > > mechanical grip/ light scuff on a flaying surface helps > with adhesion > > > > tape applied along side the joints to assist with clean up > > > > gloves, this stuff does not like to come off and mek is bad > for you > > > > proper fit of parts, don't expect pro-seal to fill > gaps. > > > > don't use to much. or you will get a wavy structure. > > > > use type a for seams it helps with waves and type b for > fillets and fastener > sealing > > > > don't exceed the pot life > > > > mix it right and use the correct proportions a good scale > really helps. > > > > use the longest pot life you can, i have found that 1/2 > stuff to be almost > useless for most jobs. > > > > the proper place for sealant is on the inside of the tank > not globed on the > outside beside it looks ugly. > > > > tips of opening seams > > > > sharpend putty knives are great but be sure to round the > corners to help > prevent gouges. take your time here. gentle is better. > > > > removal of sealant > > > > scotch bright disks work great. wear a mask. and realodine > after done. > > > > tank testing, quick easy and cheap > > > > connect air/nitrogen supply to vent > > connect clear hose to drain about ten feet worth > > loop hose to floor and fill with water until you have a > loop with three feet > high on both sides > > add nitrogen until the water is four feet higher on one > side then the other. > you now have 2 psi in the tank. care should be taken here, > fill slowly. > > spray the seams with soapy water and look for bubbles. use > hand soap or > aircraft soap, some soaps are bad for alum. > > > > how to find that damn mystery leak i have tried everything > else. > > sometimes really small leaks are the worse to find, but one > way to track > them down is to apply dye-pen developer to the outside of > the tank it will > show up any tiny leaks. over a couple of days. > > > > and this ends fuel tank 101 hope it helps. > > > > > > rick miller > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > > <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List> > <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 06, 2008
From: Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Proseal remover?
Pat, NAS 1473-A08 fuel tank nut plates are what almost all certified aircraft use. See http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=2381/index.html I used them in my project on the recommendation of my local RV guru. That said, there are other ways of preventing the infamous RV fuel tank access cover leak. (Caused by fuel leaking between the common K1000 nutplates Vans provides and the threads of the attaching screws. Some builders substitute goops of ProSeal for the supplied cork gasket. This works, but can make future removal of the access cover a hassle. Other builders purchase special #8 pan head machine screws from vendors like MSC or McMaster-Carr. These special screws have a groove for a sealing O-ring under the head of the screw. If you go this route, be sure to specify that you want VITON O-rings with the screws. (The standard Silicone O-rings won't hold up to either 100LL or auto fuels). These screws are cheaper than the NAS 1473 nutplates and work well on tanks which have already been built using the supplied K1000 screws. Using either the NAS 1473 nutplates or special screws, allows you to use the supplied cork gaskets with no leaks and easy future removal of your access covers. Choose which method you want to use and blaze on! Charlie Kuss PS Unlike Larry, I had no interference problems between my NAS 1473 nutplates and my fuel pick ups. If you want, I can supply photos of what the NAS 1473 nutplates look like when installed. Contact me directly, if interested --- On Tue, 5/6/08, Patrick Kelley wrote: > From: Patrick Kelley <webmaster(at)flion.com> > Subject: RE: RV-List: Proseal remover? > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, May 6, 2008, 11:33 AM > Domed nut plates? Van's doesn't supply those or > call them out in the plans. > I put a little fuel lube on the screws that hold the access > plate on and I > had no leaks when testing the tanks (except once when I > forgot to tighten > them down). Should I be concerned? > > > > Also, I'm getting to the point where I'll be > hooking my fuel system to the > engine. Airflow performance calls for purging the tanks > and lines with fuel > before doing this. What is the best way to do this? Will > it hurt to use my > electric pump to move the fuel, or will the filter be > sufficient to protect > it during the initial purge? Any replies, not just > Richard's, will be > appreciated. > > > > Patrick Kelley - RV-6A - Engine hung, beginning FWF process > > > > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > RICHARD MILLER > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 6:54 AM > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover? > > > > Since we seem to have so many complaints about fuel leaks, > lets cover fuel > tank 101. > > > > *** stuff snipped *** > > > > types of leaks. > > > > *** more stuff snipped *** > > > > access plate/fitting leaks, most common. cause improperly > applied sealant, > wrong nut plates , they should be all domed and sealed. too > long of screw > that goes through the nut plate dome. bad gaskets, failed > orings. rotation > of a fitting after sealant has dried. always use two > wrenches when removing > lines. > > > > *** remaining text snipped *** Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 06, 2008
From: RICHARD MILLER <rickpegser(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Proseal remover?
hi guys jan i was taught to be a litle anal retentive and by the way had to follow boeing spec's so everything gets alodined. clear for skins and gold for every thing else. besides i like the color. and water from bad fuel is bad for alum tanks. larry if they don't leak now why play with it. but when they start to leak change them out when you pull the tank. it should only take about an hour per tank. about fuel filters, airflow performance has a filter prior to the twin pump setup it will stop any thing big enough to damage the pumps, but, big but, do you want to risk your bird on one fuel filter. install one filter per tank prior to the selector valve. and sleep better at night. remember the airflow system much more pressure then a carb. i have never like the one filter idea in certified aircraft. maybe i should apply for an stc for two. airflow fuel filters are an annual replacement item, don't cheat Larry Bowen wrote: FYI, I used domed nut plates on my RV-8 tanks....and had to cut a couple of them off because they interfered with the fuel pick-up. Sometimes second-guessing uncle Van doesn't pay off.... -- Larry Bowen Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:14 PM, jan wrote: Hi Richard, I will be doing my hand build tanks later on this summer. I have read your article with great interest. First I have bought the domed nut plates they are used on commercial planes from what I understand and should make a perfect seal with a "O" ring .. Then cover the nut plate after fitting with pro-seal as a extra safeguard against leaks. Do you recommend alodining the tank skin and the ribs ?? That is a new one to me I thought cleaning with Aluprep rinse with water and scuff the seams is fine ?? Appreciate you comments on this Best regards Jan --------------------------------- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RICHARD MILLER Sent: 06 May 2008 14:54 Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover? Since we seem to have so many complaints about fuel leaks, lets cover fuel tank 101. static loads on a fuel tank are less then .5 psi. duct tape can hold .5 psi. dynamic loads are variable due to high g loading and can reach 4 psi, with tank destruction emanate. the problem with checking tanks is the static pressure loading is applied to all surfaces and they need to be stressed to handle that load. most are not ie, the caps. next problem is the inherent movement of the structure as it flexes. tearing the sealant bonds. so lets assume that you built it close to right and now want to test it. water, fuel, any material with the exception of the original sealant will contaminate the joint during testing. so how do we remove the contaminates? we don't contaminate in the first place. the sealants we are using are sensitive to contaminates so air or better nitrogen is the testing medium of choice. after inspecting aircraft with properly applied pro-seal that had over twenty years in service, the stuff sticks. sloshing does not work and will result in a crash, the unfortunate part of this is that the pilot is always the first person at the crash site.. fire and medic support might take a little longer arriving. do not slosh tanks types of leaks. seam leaks, very rare, normally caused by poor construction, or extreme g loading. fastener leaks, more common also caused by high g loading and flexing of the structure, compounded but poor sealing practices. all tank fasteners are to be installed wet. and then sealed on the inside. access plate/fitting leaks, most common. cause improperly applied sealant, wrong nut plates , they should be all domed and sealed. too long of screw that goes through the nut plate dome. bad gaskets, failed orings. rotation of a fitting after sealant has dried. always use two wrenches when removing lines. the primary problem with tank repair is the lack of structural integrity of this tank. riveted tanks and the repair tricks where designed around the larger transport type aircraft. pro-seal sticks well and can be a problem to break the seams apart without disturbing/destroying the structure. the best way that i have found to stop small leaks at fasteners and seams is to apply a heavy vacuum to the outside of the tank at the effected area to draw any remaining fuel out and and suck the sealant in to the void. additional rivets added along seam lines while still wet helps to. sealant application tricks. clean /clean /clean. pro-seal dose not like oil and most primers but loves a good cleaned alodined surface. mechanical grip/ light scuff on a flaying surface helps with adhesion tape applied along side the joints to assist with clean up gloves, this stuff does not like to come off and mek is bad for you proper fit of parts, don't expect pro-seal to fill gaps. don't use to much. or you will get a wavy structure. use type a for seams it helps with waves and type b for fillets and fastener sealing don't exceed the pot life mix it right and use the correct proportions a good scale really helps. use the longest pot life you can, i have found that 1/2 stuff to be almost useless for most jobs. the proper place for sealant is on the inside of the tank not globed on the outside beside it looks ugly. tips of opening seams sharpend putty knives are great but be sure to round the corners to help prevent gouges. take your time here. gentle is better. removal of sealant scotch bright disks work great. wear a mask. and realodine after done. tank testing, quick easy and cheap connect air/nitrogen supply to vent connect clear hose to drain about ten feet worth loop hose to floor and fill with water until you have a loop with three feet high on both sides add nitrogen until the water is four feet higher on one side then the other. you now have 2 psi in the tank. care should be taken here, fill slowly. spray the seams with soapy water and look for bubbles. use hand soap or aircraft soap, some soaps are bad for alum. how to find that damn mystery leak i have tried everything else. sometimes really small leaks are the worse to find, but one way to track them down is to apply dye-pen developer to the outside of the tank it will show up any tiny leaks. over a couple of days. and this ends fuel tank 101 hope it helps. rick miller --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and http://www.matronics.com/contribution t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List a>http://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Fasching" <n1cxo320(at)salidaco.com>
Subject: digital true airspeed indicator
Date: May 06, 2008
Does anyone know a source for a digital true airspeed indicator? I want a stand-alone meter, not a TAS that a part of a 'glass cockpit' type system. thanks for a clue. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: digital true airspeed indicator
Date: May 06, 2008
Rocky Mountian Instruments Micro Encoder. Bruce <http://www.glasair.org/> www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Fasching Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:41 PM Subject: RV-List: digital true airspeed indicator Does anyone know a source for a digital true airspeed indicator? I want a stand-alone meter, not a TAS that a part of a 'glass cockpit' type system. thanks for a clue. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Hilditch" <wmjack1(at)t3cs.net>
Subject: digital true airspeed indicator
Date: May 06, 2008
Try these. http://www.lightflying.com.au/Stratomaster%20Pages/Smart%20Singles.htm Jack _____ From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Fasching Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:41 PM Subject: RV-List: digital true airspeed indicator Does anyone know a source for a digital true airspeed indicator? I want a stand-alone meter, not a TAS that a part of a 'glass cockpit' type system. thanks for a clue. John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 06, 2008
From: "Charles Reiche" <reichec(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: digital true airspeed indicator
Insight TAS 1000 ----- Original Message ----- From: John Fasching To: rv-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:40 PM Subject: RV-List: digital true airspeed indicator Does anyone know a source for a digital true airspeed indicator? I want a stand-alone meter, not a TAS that a part of a 'glass cockpit' type system. thanks for a clue. John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 06, 2008
From: Paul Besing <pbesing(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: digital true airspeed indicator
The micro encoder is the coolest thing I have ever had. I have had two of them now. I just had my new pitot static certification done, and the guys at the avionics shop were shocked at how it's calibration is perfect after two years. He said "We don't have King Air's that are this accurate" and "I can't get this thing to fail" Keeps pluggin along and accurate within 5 feet...oh yeah, not to hijack the thread, but it has digital True Airspeed.. Paul Besing ----- Original Message ---- From: Bruce Gray <Bruce(at)glasair.org> Sent: Tuesday, May 6, 2008 5:57:02 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: digital true airspeed indicator Message Rocky Mountian Instruments Micro Encoder. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Fasching Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:41 PM Subject: RV-List: digital true airspeed indicator Does anyone know a source for a digital true airspeed indicator? I want a stand-alone meter, not a TAS that a part of a 'glass cockpit' type system. thanks for a clue. John href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HCRV6(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: digital true airspeed indicator
Date: May 07, 2008
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Airflow Fuel Filters
Date: May 07, 2008
From: "panamared5(at)brier.net" <panamared5(at)brier.net>
On 5/6/2008, "RICHARD MILLER" wrote: airflow fuel filters are an annual replacement item, don't cheat Are you sure about this? Mine is a metal screen and I clean it each year. I check for wear and tear and after 5 years it looks as good as new. Why change it? Bob RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 07, 2008
From: Christopher Stone <rv8iator(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: digital true airspeed indicator
John... Try http://www.rockymountaininstruments.com/ They have digital display altimeter, VSI ans ASI Chris Stone RV-8 Newberg, OR -----Original Message----- >From: John Fasching <n1cxo320(at)salidaco.com> >Sent: May 6, 2008 5:40 PM >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: digital true airspeed indicator > >Does anyone know a source for a digital true airspeed indicator? I want a stand-alone meter, not a TAS that a part of a 'glass cockpit' type system. > >thanks for a clue. > >John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 07, 2008
From: "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson(at)pobox.com>
Subject: Re: digital true airspeed indicator
Hi John, You might look at MGL Avionics (http://www.mglavionics.co.za/) and their Smart/Maxi/Infinity Singles. I think they only do IAS, but it never hurts to ask. Good luck, /\/elson ~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~ On Tue, 6 May 2008, John Fasching wrote: > Does anyone know a source for a digital true airspeed indicator? I want a stand-alone meter, not a TAS that a part of a 'glass cockpit' type system. > > thanks for a clue. > > John > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: digital true airspeed indicator
Date: May 07, 2008
To get TAS you need altitude and temperature. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David E. Nelson Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:41 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: digital true airspeed indicator --> Hi John, You might look at MGL Avionics (http://www.mglavionics.co.za/) and their Smart/Maxi/Infinity Singles. I think they only do IAS, but it never hurts to ask. Good luck, /\/elson ~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~ On Tue, 6 May 2008, John Fasching wrote: > Does anyone know a source for a digital true airspeed indicator? I > want a stand-alone meter, not a TAS that a part of a 'glass cockpit' > type system. > > thanks for a clue. > > John > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 07, 2008
From: "Tracy Crook" <tracy(at)rotaryaviation.com>
Subject: Re: digital true airspeed indicator
This isn't a good answer but I make an engine monitor (EM3) that includes a digital readout of TAS (up to a max of 255 mph). Hmm.. Wonder if there is a market for a standalone instrument of this kind.... Tracy Crook On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 8:40 PM, John Fasching wrote: > Does anyone know a source for a digital true airspeed indicator? I want a > stand-alone meter, not a TAS that a part of a 'glass cockpit' type system. > > thanks for a clue. > > John > > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Fasching" <n1cxo320(at)salidaco.com>
Subject: Digital TAS Indicator/Meter
Date: May 07, 2008
Thanks to all for your suggestions. I am going to look into a Rocky Mountains Micro Encoder. The only real TAS (only) that I have seen is the Insight TAS 1000 that was suggested, but I suspect it would cost more than my whole airplane. Thanks for the suggestions/help. I appreciate it. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Proseal remover?
Date: May 07, 2008
Hi Richard, (nothing wrong with perfection .. :-) ...) & Charles Is the reason for using clear and gold Alodine purely esthetic or is there a technical (chemical) reason why they are use on different parts of the aircraft (at Boeing) ? I have used the "gold" Alodine quite a lot - prior to painting ... on several parts of the RV I am building. Especially the spar. >From a adhesion point - paint does stick very well to a Alodined surface - Does the maker of ProSeal have any official policy on using Alodine prior to application of its product? Do you know "how many / how widely" the practice of alodining the inside of the tanks are ?? Jan _____ From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RICHARD MILLER Sent: 07 May 2008 00:22 Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover? hi guys jan i was taught to be a litle anal retentive and by the way had to follow boeing spec's so everything gets alodined. clear for skins and gold for every thing else. besides i like the color. and water from bad fuel is bad for alum tanks. larry if they don't leak now why play with it. but when they start to leak change them out when you pull the tank. it should only take about an hour per tank. about fuel filters, airflow performance has a filter prior to the twin pump setup it will stop any thing big enough to damage the pumps, but, big but, do you want to risk your bird on one fuel filter. install one filter per tank prior to the selector valve. and sleep better at night. remember the airflow system much more pressure then a carb. i have never like the one filter idea in certified aircraft. maybe i should apply for an stc for two. airflow fuel filters are an annual replacement item, don't cheat Larry Bowen wrote: FYI, I used domed nut plates on my RV-8 tanks....and had to cut a couple of them off because they interfered with the fuel pick-up. Sometimes second-guessing uncle Van doesn't pay off.... -- Larry Bowen Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:14 PM, jan > wrote: Hi Richard, I will be doing my hand build tanks later on this summer. I have read your article with great interest. First ... I have bought the domed nut plates... they are used on commercial planes from what I understand ... and should make a perfect seal with a "O" ring .. Then cover the nut plate after fitting with pro-seal as a extra safeguard against leaks. Do you recommend alodining the tank skin and the ribs ?? That is a new one to me ... I thought cleaning with Aluprep ...rinse with water ... and scuff the seams is fine ?? Appreciate you comments on this Best regards Jan _____ From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com ] On Behalf Of RICHARD MILLER Sent: 06 May 2008 14:54 Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover? Since we seem to have so many complaints about fuel leaks, lets cover fuel tank 101. static loads on a fuel tank are less then .5 psi. duct tape can hold .5 psi. dynamic loads are variable due to high g loading and can reach 4 psi, with tank destruction emanate. the problem with checking tanks is the static pressure loading is applied to all surfaces and they need to be stressed to handle that load. most are not ie, the caps. next problem is the inherent movement of the structure as it flexes. tearing the sealant bonds. so lets assume that you built it close to right and now want to test it. water, fuel, any material with the exception of the original sealant will contaminate the joint during testing. so how do we remove the contaminates? we don't contaminate in the first place. the sealants we are using are sensitive to contaminates so air or better nitrogen is the testing medium of choice. after inspecting aircraft with properly applied pro-seal that had over twenty years in service, the stuff sticks. sloshing does not work and will result in a crash, the unfortunate part of this is that the pilot is always the first person at the crash site.. fire and medic support might take a little longer arriving. do not slosh tanks types of leaks. seam leaks, very rare, normally caused by poor construction, or extreme g loading. fastener leaks, more common also caused by high g loading and flexing of the structure, compounded but poor sealing practices. all tank fasteners are to be installed wet. and then sealed on the inside. access plate/fitting leaks, most common. cause improperly applied sealant, wrong nut plates , they should be all domed and sealed. too long of screw that goes through the nut plate dome. bad gaskets, failed orings. rotation of a fitting after sealant has dried. always use two wrenches when removing lines. the primary problem with tank repair is the lack of structural integrity of this tank. riveted tanks and the repair tricks where designed around the larger transport type aircraft. pro-seal sticks well and can be a problem to break the seams apart without disturbing/destroying the structure. the best way that i have found to stop small leaks at fasteners and seams is to apply a heavy vacuum to the outside of the tank at the effected area to draw any remaining fuel out and and suck the sealant in to the void. additional rivets added along seam lines while still wet helps to. sealant application tricks. clean /clean /clean. pro-seal dose not like oil and most primers but loves a good cleaned alodined surface. mechanical grip/ light scuff on a flaying surface helps with adhesion tape applied along side the joints to assist with clean up gloves, this stuff does not like to come off and mek is bad for you proper fit of parts, don't expect pro-seal to fill gaps. don't use to much. or you will get a wavy structure. use type a for seams it helps with waves and type b for fillets and fastener sealing don't exceed the pot life mix it right and use the correct proportions a good scale really helps. use the longest pot life you can, i have found that 1/2 stuff to be almost useless for most jobs. the proper place for sealant is on the inside of the tank not globed on the outside beside it looks ugly. tips of opening seams sharpend putty knives are great but be sure to round the corners to help prevent gouges. take your time here. gentle is better. removal of sealant scotch bright disks work great. wear a mask. and realodine after done. tank testing, quick easy and cheap connect air/nitrogen supply to vent connect clear hose to drain about ten feet worth loop hose to floor and fill with water until you have a loop with three feet high on both sides add nitrogen until the water is four feet higher on one side then the other. you now have 2 psi in the tank. care should be taken here, fill slowly. spray the seams with soapy water and look for bubbles. use hand soap or aircraft soap, some soaps are bad for alum. how to find that damn mystery leak i have tried everything else. sometimes really small leaks are the worse to find, but one way to track them down is to apply dye-pen developer to the outside of the tank it will show up any tiny leaks. over a couple of days. and this ends fuel tank 101 hope it helps. rick miller _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List> a>http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

Hi Richard, (nothing wrong with perfection .. J …) & Charles

Is the reason for using clear and gold Alodine purely esthetic or is there a technical (chemical) reason why they are use on different parts of the aircraft (at Boeing) ? I have used the “gold” Alodine quite a lot – prior to painting … on several parts of the RV I am building. Especially the spar.

Do you know “how many / how widely” the practice of alodining the inside of the tanks are ??

Jan



From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RICHARD MILLER
Sent: 07 May 2008 00:22
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover?

hi guys

    jan i was taught to be a litle anal retentive and by the way had to follow boeing spec's so everything gets alodined. clear for skins and gold for every thing else. besides i like the color. and water from bad fuel is bad for alum tanks.

larry if they don't leak now why play with it. but when they start to leak change them out when you pull the tank. it should only take about an hour per tank.

about fuel filters, airflow performance has a filter prior to the twin pump setup it will stop any thing big enough to damage the pumps, but, big but, do you want to risk your bird on one fuel filter. install one filter per tank prior to the selector valve. and sleep better at night. remember the airflow system much more pressure then a carb. i have never like the one filter idea in certified aircraft. maybe i should apply for an stc for two. airflow fuel filters are an annual replacement item, don't cheat

Larry Bowen <larry(at)bowenaero.com> wrote:

FYI, I used domed nut plates on my RV-8 tanks....and had to cut a couple of them off because they interfered with the fuel pick-up. Sometimes second-guessing uncle Van doesn't pay off....

--
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:14 PM, jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Hi Richard,

I will be doing my hand build tanks later on this summer. I have read your article with great interest. First … I have bought the domed nut plates… they are used on commercial planes from what I understand … and should make a perfect seal with a "O" ring .. Then cover the nut plate after fitting with pro-seal as a extra safeguard against leaks.

Do you recommend alodining the tank skin and the ribs ?? That is a new one to me … I thought cleaning with Aluprep …rinse with water … and scuff the seams is fine ??

Appreciate you comments on this

Best regards

Jan

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RICHARD MILLER
Sent: 06 May 2008 14:54
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover?

Since we seem to have so many complaints about fuel leaks, lets cover fuel tank 101.

static loads on a fuel tank are less then .5 psi. duct tape can hold .5 psi. dynamic loads are variable due to high g loading and can reach 4

psi, with tank destruction emanate. the problem with checking tanks is the static pressure loading is applied to all surfaces and they need to be stressed to handle that load. most are not ie, the caps.

next problem is the inherent movement of the structure as it flexes. tearing the sealant bonds.

so lets assume that you built it close to right and now want to test it. water, fuel, any material with the exception of the original sealant will contaminate the joint during testing. so how do we remove the contaminates? we don't contaminate in the first place. the sealants we are using are sensitive to contaminates so air or better nitrogen is the testing medium of choice.

after inspecting aircraft with properly applied pro-seal that had over twenty years in service, the stuff sticks. sloshing does not work and will result in a crash, the unfortunate part of this is that the pilot is always the first person at the crash site.. fire and medic support might take a little longer arriving. do not slosh tanks

types of leaks.

seam leaks, very rare, normally caused by poor construction, or extreme g loading.

fastener leaks, more common also caused by high g loading and flexing of the structure, compounded but poor sealing practices. all tank fasteners are to be installed wet. and then sealed on the inside.

access plate/fitting leaks,  most common. cause improperly applied sealant, wrong nut plates , they should be all domed and sealed. too long of screw that goes through the nut plate dome. bad gaskets, failed orings. rotation of a fitting after sealant has dried. always use two wrenches when removing lines.

the primary problem with tank repair is the lack of structural integrity of this tank. riveted tanks and the repair tricks where designed around the larger transport type aircraft. pro-seal sticks well and can be a problem to break the seams apart without disturbing/destroying the structure.

the best way that i have found to stop small leaks at fasteners and seams is to apply a heavy vacuum to the outside of the tank at the effected area to draw any remaining fuel out and and suck the sealant in to the void. additional rivets added along seam lines while still wet helps to.

sealant application tricks.

clean /clean /clean. pro-seal dose not like oil and most primers but loves a good cleaned alodined surface.

mechanical grip/ light scuff on a flaying surface helps with adhesion

tape applied along side the joints to assist with clean up

gloves, this stuff does not like to come off and mek is bad for you

proper fit of parts, don't expect pro-seal to fill gaps.

don't use to much. or you will get a wavy structure.

use type a for seams it helps with waves and type b for fillets and fastener sealing

don't exceed the pot life

mix it right and use the correct proportions a good scale really helps.

use the longest pot life you can, i have found that 1/2 stuff to be almost useless for most jobs.

the proper place for sealant is on the inside of the tank not globed on the outside beside it looks ugly.

tips of opening seams

sharpend putty knives are great but be sure to round the corners to help prevent gouges. take your time here. gentle is better.

removal of sealant

scotch bright disks work great. wear a mask. and realodine after done.

tank testing, quick easy and cheap

connect air/nitrogen supply to vent

connect clear hose to drain about ten feet worth

loop hose to floor and fill with water until you have a loop with three feet high on both sides

add nitrogen until the water is four feet higher on one side then the other. you now have 2 psi in the tank. care should be taken here, fill slowly.

spray the seams with soapy water and look for bubbles. use hand soap or aircraft soap, some soaps are bad for alum.

how to find that damn mystery leak i have tried everything else.

sometimes really small leaks are the worse to find, but one way to track them down is to apply dye-pen developer to the outside of the tank it will show up any tiny leaks. over a couple of days.

and this ends fuel tank 101 hope it helps.

rick miller

Be a better friend, newshound, and

http://www.matronics.com/contribution>

    t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List> a>http://forums.matronics.com>

    &nbs p;

Be a better friend, newshound, and

http://www.matronics.com/ contribution

________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 07, 2008
From: RICHARD MILLER <rickpegser(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Airflow Fuel Filters
bob all of the airflows i have worked on had an auto type can inline before the pumps that was the filter i was refering to not the screen. rick "panamared5(at)brier.net" wrote: On 5/6/2008, "RICHARD MILLER" wrote: airflow fuel filters are an annual replacement item, don't cheat Are you sure about this? Mine is a metal screen and I clean it each year. I check for wear and tear and after 5 years it looks as good as new. Why change it? Bob RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West" --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Subject: MX-20 Install manual
Date: May 07, 2008
I need a PDF copy of the installation manual for an MX-20. I bought a demo unit and didn't get the manuals with it. I've found the Pilot's Guide & Quick Reference online but Garmin says the install manual has to be downloaded by a dealer. I tried all the URLs from the archives and tried to guess the name and download it blindly. No luck - it looks like Garmin has truly hidden it this time - unless someone knows more tricks. If anyone has it already or can download it and send it I'd sure appreciate it. Thanks. Regards, Greg Young Cell: 281-844-0987 gyoung@cs-sol.com> gyoung@cs-sol.com <http://www.bentwing.com/> www.bentwing.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 07, 2008
From: Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Proseal remover?
Jan, The difference between "clear" and "gold" Alodine (or Iridite) is only cosmetic. They add a dye to the "gold" to aid you in knowing when the chromic conversion process has completed. I just did a quick search regarding the application of Pro-Seal or Chem Seal (as supplied by Vans) Here is what I found. http://www.aviationproductsinc.com/Publications/TDS_PDF/TDS_CS3204.pdf http://corporateportal.ppg.com/NR/rdonlyres/22FFA52B-AC2C-4D75-AE20-08E03ACF8EB8/0/asaguide.pdf Both simply stress that the surface be clean. I only know of several sets of fuel tanks which were built locally, which were Alodined prior to sealing. No one has had any sealing problems so far. Charlie Kuss --- On Wed, 5/7/08, jan wrote: > From: jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk> > Subject: RE: RV-List: Proseal remover? > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 1:22 PM > Hi Richard, (nothing wrong with perfection .. :-) ...) > & Charles > > > > Is the reason for using clear and gold Alodine purely > esthetic or is there a > technical (chemical) reason why they are use on different > parts of the > aircraft (at Boeing) ? I have used the "gold" > Alodine quite a lot - prior to > painting ... on several parts of the RV I am building. > Especially the spar. > > > > >From a adhesion point - paint does stick very well to a > Alodined surface - > Does the maker of ProSeal have any official policy on using > Alodine prior to > application of its product? > > > > Do you know "how many / how widely" the practice > of alodining the inside of > the tanks are ?? > > > > Jan > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > RICHARD MILLER > Sent: 07 May 2008 00:22 > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover? > > > > hi guys > > > > jan i was taught to be a litle anal retentive and by > the way had to > follow boeing spec's so everything gets alodined. clear > for skins and gold > for every thing else. besides i like the color. and water > from bad fuel is > bad for alum tanks. > > > > larry if they don't leak now why play with it. but when > they start to leak > change them out when you pull the tank. it should only take > about an hour > per tank. > > > > about fuel filters, airflow performance has a filter prior > to the twin pump > setup it will stop any thing big enough to damage the > pumps, but, big but, > do you want to risk your bird on one fuel filter. install > one filter per > tank prior to the selector valve. and sleep better at > night. remember the > airflow system much more pressure then a carb. i have never > like the one > filter idea in certified aircraft. maybe i should apply for > an stc for two. > airflow fuel filters are an annual replacement item, > don't cheat > > Larry Bowen wrote: > > FYI, I used domed nut plates on my RV-8 tanks....and had to > cut a couple of > them off because they interfered with the fuel pick-up. > Sometimes > second-guessing uncle Van doesn't pay off.... > > -- > Larry Bowen > Larry(at)BowenAero.com > http://BowenAero.com > > On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:14 PM, jan > > wrote: > > Hi Richard, > > > > I will be doing my hand build tanks later on this summer. I > have read your > article with great interest. First ... I have bought the > domed nut plates... > they are used on commercial planes from what I understand > ... and should > make a perfect seal with a "O" ring .. Then cover > the nut plate after > fitting with pro-seal as a extra safeguard against leaks. > > > > Do you recommend alodining the tank skin and the ribs ?? > That is a new one > to me ... I thought cleaning with Aluprep ...rinse with > water ... and scuff > the seams is fine ?? > > > > Appreciate you comments on this > > > > Best regards > > > > Jan > > > > > _____ > > > From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com > ] On > Behalf Of RICHARD MILLER > Sent: 06 May 2008 14:54 > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: Re: RV-List: Proseal remover? > > > > Since we seem to have so many complaints about fuel leaks, > lets cover fuel > tank 101. > > > > static loads on a fuel tank are less then .5 psi. duct tape > can hold .5 psi. > dynamic loads are variable due to high g loading and can > reach 4 > > psi, with tank destruction emanate. the problem with > checking tanks is the > static pressure loading is applied to all surfaces and they > need to be > stressed to handle that load. most are not ie, the caps. > > > > next problem is the inherent movement of the structure as > it flexes. tearing > the sealant bonds. > > > > so lets assume that you built it close to right and now > want to test it. > water, fuel, any material with the exception of the > original sealant will > contaminate the joint during testing. so how do we remove > the contaminates? > we don't contaminate in the first place. the sealants > we are using are > sensitive to contaminates so air or better nitrogen is the > testing medium of > choice. > > > > after inspecting aircraft with properly applied pro-seal > that had over > twenty years in service, the stuff sticks. sloshing does > not work and will > result in a crash, the unfortunate part of this is that the > pilot is always > the first person at the crash site.. fire and medic support > might take a > little longer arriving. do not slosh tanks > > > > types of leaks. > > > > seam leaks, very rare, normally caused by poor > construction, or extreme g > loading. > > > > fastener leaks, more common also caused by high g loading > and flexing of the > structure, compounded but poor sealing practices. all tank > fasteners are to > be installed wet. and then sealed on the inside. > > > > access plate/fitting leaks, most common. cause improperly > applied sealant, > wrong nut plates , they should be all domed and sealed. too > long of screw > that goes through the nut plate dome. bad gaskets, failed > orings. rotation > of a fitting after sealant has dried. always use two > wrenches when removing > lines. > > > > the primary problem with tank repair is the lack of > structural integrity of > this tank. riveted tanks and the repair tricks where > designed around the > larger transport type aircraft. pro-seal sticks well and > can be a problem to > break the seams apart without disturbing/destroying the > structure. > > > > the best way that i have found to stop small leaks at > fasteners and seams is

RV-Archive.digest.vol-tl

RV-Archive.digest.vol-tl