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July 08, 2015 - August 13, 2015

Now I need to spend the next week trying to get this Cee-Baley windshield to fit. It looks like I'm going to have to do some serious sanding to get thi s thing to fit. When it sits flush on my upper fuselage, I only have about 1 /4"-1/2" overlap on the top portion of the cabin top flange....This means I' m going to have to remove about 1/2" from the corners of the plexi so it can slide back. Maybe they have fixed these fit issues since I ordered mine 3 years ago, but they are no where near drop in place. Shannon > On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Pascal wrote: > > I used the AS pigment- http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/epoxy Pigments.php?clickkey=334111 > A little bit went a long way. I found that it did a very nice job making i t black and would use/do it again. > One needs to be careful however. once it touches something it is virtua lly impossible to clean it up completely. > > > -----Original Message----- From: Rich Hansen > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 7:11 AM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Windscreen Die > > > > > > Chris, > Used the die in my windscreen layup not too long ago. Don't remember the b rand, but it was made specifically for epoxy resins and was black in color. A lthough I wouldn't say it created any huge complications, it did little to a ctually turn the epoxy black as I'd hoped for. Turned it a light gray at be st. There was a volume limit caution with the die also, so you couldn't jus t say, "well a little is good so a lot will be better". It also was a liqui d, not powder. > My reasoning for using the die was purely aesthetics. My RV-6 used the sa me windscreen layup, and looking through the windscreen from inside was neve r bothersome, especially after being painted. In the 10 however we sit a bit higher. After completing the windscreen layup I checked the appearance from inside. Didn't like it & too much was visible. Everyone has a differ ent opinion, but I like the way automotive glass today has a black painted b order on the inside perimeter. This paint allows the hiding of trim pieces (pillar post, headliner, etc) while looking from outside in. I copied that. Using 3M fine line tape was able to get a decent border on the inside of t he windscreen and shoot it a semi flat black. It's about 2 minutes of paint ing, and an hour or so of masking, but came out nicely. > Plans call for small clips to be fabricated to support in position the low er fwd section of windscreen. I could actually make those out (looking insi de out) after the layup on mine. After paint of course, gone. > This painting inside perimeter has been mentioned on this site before, so c heck archives if you are interested. Good luck with your sanding! > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > ========== > -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navig ator?RV10-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 08, 2015
Subject: Re: Windscreen Die
From: Shannon Hicks <civeng123(at)gmail.com>
It looks like I had a misunderstanding of what the Cee-Bailey plexi would give me. So when they weren't "plug and play", I was under the false assumption that I had some bad stuff. Now that I know the intent was to leave 1/4" for final fit up it makes a lot more sense. These last few steps have been a real booger compared to the first 95%. of the build. I have learned that I like aluminum much more than either fiber or plexi glass. Shannon On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 11:56 AM, Linn Walters wrote: > I clecoed a piece of scrap angle aluminum where the front of the > windshield sits on the upper fuse and laid the windshield against it to > keep the windshield from sliding fwd. I marked where the cabin top edge > met the windshield with a sharpie and trimmed to that line. The belt > sander made quick work of final fitting. My windshield fit flush all the > way around the upper fuse with the exception of an area on both sides just > fwd of the fiberglass top. A clip riveted to the upper fuse solved that > problem. > Linn > > > On 7/8/2015 11:05 AM, Shannon Hicks wrote: > > Thanks Pascal. This is the pigment I have on order along with the > Alumiprep and Alodine. I may try a dry run on some scrap aluminum just to > get the hang of it prior to going full scale. > > Now I need to spend the next week trying to get this Cee-Baley > windshield to fit. It looks like I'm going to have to do some serious > sanding to get this thing to fit. When it sits flush on my upper fuselage, > I only have about 1/4"-1/2" overlap on the top portion of the cabin top > flange....This means I'm going to have to remove about 1/2" from the > corners of the plexi so it can slide back. Maybe they have fixed these > fit issues since I ordered mine 3 years ago, but they are no where near > drop in place. > > Shannon > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Pascal wrote: > >> >> I used the AS pigment- >> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/epoxyPigments.php?clickkey=334111 >> A little bit went a long way. I found that it did a very nice job making >> it black and would use/do it again. >> One needs to be careful however. once it touches something it is >> virtually impossible to clean it up completely. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Rich Hansen >> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 7:11 AM >> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: RV10-List: Windscreen Die >> >> >> >> >> >> Chris, >> Used the die in my windscreen layup not too long ago. Don't remember the >> brand, but it was made specifically for epoxy resins and was black in >> color. Although I wouldn't say it created any huge complications, it did >> little to actually turn the epoxy black as I'd hoped for. Turned it a >> light gray at best. There was a volume limit caution with the die also, so >> you couldn't just say, "well a little is good so a lot will be better". It >> also was a liquid, not powder. >> My reasoning for using the die was purely aesthetics. My RV-6 used the >> same windscreen layup, and looking through the windscreen from inside was >> never bothersome, especially after being painted. In the 10 however we >> sit a bit higher. After completing the windscreen layup I checked the >> appearance from inside. Didn't like it & too much was visible. Everyone >> has a different opinion, but I like the way automotive glass today has a >> black painted border on the inside perimeter. This paint allows the >> hiding of trim pieces (pillar post, headliner, etc) while looking from >> outside in. I copied that. Using 3M fine line tape was able to get a >> decent border on the inside of the windscreen and shoot it a semi flat >> black. It's about 2 minutes of painting, and an hour or so of masking, but >> came out nicely. >> Plans call for small clips to be fabricated to support in position the >> lower fwd section of windscreen. I could actually make those out (looking >> inside out) after the layup on mine. After paint of course, gone. >> This painting inside perimeter has been mentioned on this site before, >> so check archives if you are interested. Good luck with your sanding! >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Date: 07/08/15 > > > * > > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Windscreen Die
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Jul 08, 2015
Can anyone change the title to "dye"? I thought someone was trying to put threads in their windscreen! -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444580#444580 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Albert" <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: Johnson Creek, ID
Date: Jul 08, 2015
Tim, I'm heading for Johnson Creek, Idaho in 10 days or so. I remember you flying in there a coupla of years ago, did you take any stills or video of your approach/landing? Albert Gardner RV-10 N991RV Yuma, AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Pascal" <rv10flyer(at)live.com>
Subject: Re: Johnson Creek, ID
Date: Jul 08, 2015
Try these Albert https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=johnson+creek+airport -----Original Message----- From: Albert Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 8:30 PM Subject: RV10-List: Johnson Creek, ID Tim, I'm heading for Johnson Creek, Idaho in 10 days or so. I remember you flying in there a coupla of years ago, did you take any stills or video of your approach/landing? Albert Gardner RV-10 N991RV Yuma, AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Albert" <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: Johnson Creek, ID
Date: Jul 09, 2015
Thanks, lots of videos about Johnson Creek (and other places as well). Feel like I've already been there! Albert -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 9:45 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Johnson Creek, ID Try these Albert https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=johnson+creek+airport -----Original Message----- From: Albert Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 8:30 PM Subject: RV10-List: Johnson Creek, ID Tim, I'm heading for Johnson Creek, Idaho in 10 days or so. I remember you flying in there a coupla of years ago, did you take any stills or video of your approach/landing? Albert Gardner RV-10 N991RV Yuma, AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Windscreen Die
From: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Jul 09, 2015
Yeah, it's really dye, but on to the point. I didn't use Van's method of glassing strips at the base of the windshield - I used the ML Skunkworks aluminum method, instead. I love the results, and it will be much easier to remove when the day comes. http://www.mlblueskunk.com/Windscreen_Fairings.html John -------- #40572 Phase One complete in 2011 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444628#444628 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Johnson Creek, ID
From: "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com>
Date: Jul 10, 2015
They have a nice webcam as well. Unfortunately, looking a little dryer and browner lately. http://www.ruralnetwork.net/~yellowpinecm/ -------- Myron Nelson Mesa, AZ Flew May 10 2014 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444655#444655 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Dual battery isolation
From: "Lew Gallagher" <lewgall(at)charter.net>
Date: Jul 13, 2015
Hey Tim O., et al A little off topic, but related. I am restoring a bass boat for my step-son. It will have a main battery for starting, and an auxiliary battery for trolling motor, lights, fish finder etc. I remember your design for your main and backup batteries having two diodes wired in so that they can be charged from the same source, but not bleed back into the other system. I've checked and they DO sell "battery isolators" and "automatic charging relay with start isolation" specifically for my marine needs, but they're a little pricey. They are affordable, but you know I love a challenge and the opportunity to learn something new. Can I make my own? If so, what are sources and part numbers for the diodes and a diagram? Thanks, - Lew -------- non-pilot crazy about building NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549 Fly off completed ! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444698#444698 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 2015
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
I just re-worked this a little for my RV-14 and changed things ever so slightly, but the Schottky I used for the system this time is the DSS2x121-0045B by IXYS. It handles a lot of current. The design basically uses one schottky just to feed from the main to the aux bus (that feeds the e-bus), just to charge the battery. (only when the aux master switch is on) The 2nd schottky was used primarily because: I turned on the e-bus during engine cranking to prevent brownout, but then turned it off after it was running. Without a diode feed, during the switch throw, the power would be out on the e-bus. I did some shuffling a little on the new system to change how it all operates just a tiny bit. But one of my initial goals was to NOT have the diode drop (even the small drop of a schottky) between the main bus that is doing the charging and the aux batteries, in normal operation. I wanted that aux battery to get a full voltage charge. Anyway, above is the part number of the diode I used. For the diagram, I don't know that what I did will at all be relevant to what you're trying to do, but it should be pretty simple to do what you want. You probably could even just connect the 2 batteries with just the schottky and be ok. Or, if you want full line voltage, you could just have a 3 way ON-OFF-ON switch so that one path uses the diode, one uses a plain wire, and center is off. It should be pretty easy. Tim On 7/13/2015 2:10 PM, Lew Gallagher wrote: > > Hey Tim O., et al > > A little off topic, but related. > > I am restoring a bass boat for my step-son. It will have a main battery for starting, and an auxiliary battery for trolling motor, lights, fish finder etc. > > I remember your design for your main and backup batteries having two diodes wired in so that they can be charged from the same source, but not bleed back into the other system. I've checked and they DO sell "battery isolators" and "automatic charging relay with start isolation" specifically for my marine needs, but they're a little pricey. They are affordable, but you know I love a challenge and the opportunity to learn something new. > > Can I make my own? If so, what are sources and part numbers for the diodes and a diagram? > > Thanks, - Lew > > -------- > non-pilot > crazy about building > NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549 > Fly off completed ! > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444698#444698 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Leffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: RV10 HQ in Camp Scholler - Sunday (7/19) - 6:00PM
Date: Jul 13, 2015
RV10 HQ Dinner in Camp Scholler - Sunday (7/19) - 6:00PM The location is on the west side of 53rd street just south of Lindbergh (also called Oak Lane). We are asking that everyone attending please R.S.V.P. at http://www.perfectpotluck.com/meals.php?t=DSOH9787 . If you just show up without giving us your R.S.V.P., we stand the chance of running out of food. Bob Leffler will arrange procuring the basics like meat, a few side dishes, soft drinks/water, condiments, plates, utensils, etc. To cover these costs for the meal, we will ask for a CASH DONATION from everyone. There will be a bucket on the serving line for the donations. In addition to cover the food costs, we also request a donation to cover the cost of the extra camp sites used for the dinner and a place for RV-10 builders to hang out together during the show. If there is a vendor that wants to assist in underwriting the dinner, we'll gladly make sure that everyone knows. If you have unique dietary needs, please feel free to bring your own food. We'll do our best to assist with getting it cooked. i.e. veggie burgers You can also drop Bob an email to see if he can pick something special up when he shops on Sunday. We will try our best to accommodate special needs, but can't make any guarantees. How to get there: If you're unfamiliar with the area, easiest way to get here from the main AirVenture grounds is through the Theater in the Woods gate (also a tram stop). Walk west (right) on Shaick Ave, turn south (left) on Binder Lane, turn west (right again) on Lindbergh and go to 54th. You'll find the cookout about half way down 54th on the west side of the lane. Elm street (1 south of Lindbergh) in Camp Scholler has been relocated a north from prior years. Group site is about 3 sites north of the NEW Elm street location. https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=z2G9kwPv6p8Q.kGsNSWbLT7wo This is a photo standing on Lindbergh looking south on 53rd as of this morning. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <lewgall(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
Date: Jul 13, 2015
Thanks for the lightning response, Tim. I'm on it. I assume I can just put the charge wire from the motor to both diodes, then from each diode to each battery? Later, - Lew ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2015
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
I would just keep the one battery the way it is, charging off the motor, and then put the diode between the positive terminals of the batteries so that the second battery charges off the first battery. It won't flow power back from that second to the first, but if they're the same type of battery it should keep them both charged. Now, if they aren't the same battery chemistry, I'd rethink it all and probably buy that special charger. (i.e. if one is a normal starting battery and one is deep cycle or something like that) I'm not sure what adjustments you'd have to make for the various battery chemistries. It's much easier if you are dealing with the same battery types. Tim On 7/13/2015 9:13 PM, lewgall(at)charter.net wrote: > > > Thanks for the lightning response, Tim. I'm on it. I assume I can > just put the charge wire from the motor to both diodes, then from each > diode to each battery? > > Later, - Lew ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <lewgall(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
Date: Jul 14, 2015
Hmmm, the part number DSS2x121-0045B looks like it is two diodes side by side? That's why I was thinking total isolation. I wouldn't want the main battery to be drained by running the trolling motor for hours while the engine is off. For RV application, you might be interested in researching this automatic charging relay with start isolation by Blue Sea Systems https://www.bluesea.com/products/7610/SI-ACR_Automatic_Charging_Relay_-_12_24V_DC_120A I'll see if attaching the pdf instructions to this works. Later, - Lew -----Original Message----- From: Tim Olson Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 7:14 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Dual battery isolation I would just keep the one battery the way it is, charging off the motor, and then put the diode between the positive terminals of the batteries so that the second battery charges off the first battery. It won't flow power back from that second to the first, but if they're the same type of battery it should keep them both charged. Now, if they aren't the same battery chemistry, I'd rethink it all and probably buy that special charger. (i.e. if one is a normal starting battery and one is deep cycle or something like that) I'm not sure what adjustments you'd have to make for the various battery chemistries. It's much easier if you are dealing with the same battery types. Tim On 7/13/2015 9:13 PM, lewgall(at)charter.net wrote: > > > Thanks for the lightning response, Tim. I'm on it. I assume I can just > put the charge wire from the motor to both diodes, then from each diode to > each battery? > > Later, - Lew ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2015
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
Good point. For a boat, if it were me, I'd either add a switch then in series so I could get rid of that connection when trolling, or, you could stick in a relay that is either tweaked so that it only closes the relay when you get a charging voltage over a certain setpoint, like 13.2V or something...or, it only closes when the engine is running (detected by some other means). Really, personally, I would probably in real life not even bother to hack this stuff together. Parts add up to $$ eventually, and I'd rather buy a product like that $109.97 automatic charging relay, that is well made. So I wouldn't even screw with the stuff you're looking for. In the plane, it was easy for me to do what I wanted though. Tim On 7/14/2015 8:02 AM, lewgall(at)charter.net wrote: > Hmmm, the part number DSS2x121-0045B looks like it is two diodes side by > side? That's why I was thinking total isolation. I wouldn't want the > main battery to be drained by running the trolling motor for hours while > the engine is off. > > For RV application, you might be interested in researching this > automatic charging relay with start isolation by Blue Sea Systems > https://www.bluesea.com/products/7610/SI-ACR_Automatic_Charging_Relay_-_12_24V_DC_120A > > > I'll see if attaching the pdf instructions to this works. > > Later, - Lew > > > -----Original Message----- From: Tim Olson > Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 7:14 AM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Dual battery isolation > > > I would just keep the one battery the way it is, charging off the motor, > and then put > the diode between the positive terminals of the batteries so that the > second battery > charges off the first battery. It won't flow power back from that > second to the > first, but if they're the same type of battery it should keep them both > charged. > Now, if they aren't the same battery chemistry, I'd rethink it all and > probably > buy that special charger. (i.e. if one is a normal starting battery and > one is > deep cycle or something like that) I'm not sure what adjustments you'd > have to > make for the various battery chemistries. It's much easier if you are > dealing with > the same battery types. > Tim > > On 7/13/2015 9:13 PM, lewgall(at)charter.net wrote: >> >> >> Thanks for the lightning response, Tim. I'm on it. I assume I can >> just put the charge wire from the motor to both diodes, then from each >> diode to each battery? >> >> Later, - Lew > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2015
From: Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
Sorry guys ..... I just don't understand. I've deleted a couple of my 'replies' to this thread before I hit 'send' already because I can't offer anything really constructive ..... other than this is what happens when you violate the 'KISS' principle. Why do you need two batteries? Oh, the 'essential buss'. Well, I have switches and fuses for removing all items that do not have their own on/off switch. I can take the time to do that after I get a 'low voltage' warning from multiple sources. Want more cranking power? Use a higher CCA battery. Still want to isolate that battery and load? A switch and a high current relay work really well but suffers from the human not being automatic ......... So, now we add more and more failure points, weight, and $$$ ........ it all adds up, an ounce here and a penny there .... soon you have pounds and an 'aviation dollar'. Linn .... KISS supporter (and IMHO) On 7/14/2015 9:53 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > > Good point. > For a boat, if it were me, I'd either add a switch then > in series so I could get rid of that connection > when trolling, or, you could stick in a relay that > is either tweaked so that it only closes the relay > when you get a charging voltage over a certain > setpoint, like 13.2V or something...or, it only > closes when the engine is running (detected by > some other means). Really, personally, I would probably > in real life not even bother to hack this stuff together. > Parts add up to $$ eventually, and I'd rather buy a > product like that $109.97 automatic charging relay, > that is well made. So I wouldn't even screw with the > stuff you're looking for. > > In the plane, it was easy for me to do what I wanted though. > Tim > > > On 7/14/2015 8:02 AM, lewgall(at)charter.net wrote: >> Hmmm, the part number DSS2x121-0045B looks like it is two diodes side by >> side? That's why I was thinking total isolation. I wouldn't want the >> main battery to be drained by running the trolling motor for hours while >> the engine is off. >> >> For RV application, you might be interested in researching this >> automatic charging relay with start isolation by Blue Sea Systems >> https://www.bluesea.com/products/7610/SI-ACR_Automatic_Charging_Relay_-_12_24V_DC_120A >> >> >> >> I'll see if attaching the pdf instructions to this works. >> >> Later, - Lew >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Tim Olson >> Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 7:14 AM >> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Dual battery isolation >> >> >> I would just keep the one battery the way it is, charging off the motor, >> and then put >> the diode between the positive terminals of the batteries so that the >> second battery >> charges off the first battery. It won't flow power back from that >> second to the >> first, but if they're the same type of battery it should keep them both >> charged. >> Now, if they aren't the same battery chemistry, I'd rethink it all and >> probably >> buy that special charger. (i.e. if one is a normal starting battery and >> one is >> deep cycle or something like that) I'm not sure what adjustments you'd >> have to >> make for the various battery chemistries. It's much easier if you are >> dealing with >> the same battery types. >> Tim >> >> On 7/13/2015 9:13 PM, lewgall(at)charter.net wrote: >>> >>> >>> Thanks for the lightning response, Tim. I'm on it. I assume I can >>> just put the charge wire from the motor to both diodes, then from each >>> diode to each battery? >>> >>> Later, - Lew >> >> >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 07/14/15 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2015
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net>
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
On 07/14/2015 10:15 AM, Linn Walters wrote: > > Why do you need two batteries? Brownout. With a glass panel, cranking the engine causes the panel to reboot, which is a real PITA. You can either have independent internal batteries for every electronic device, or follow the KISS principal and have a single second battery on an essential buss to keep everything up and running. -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV - EAA Chapter 87 Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Dual battery isolation
Date: Jul 14, 2015
The reason is you can - at low cost and no weight penalty. With some thought the result is you can eliminate a plethora of single component failure scenarios that leave you with a dark panel. Two PC-625 batteries provide all the cranking power I need, and each having a 17amp/hr rating provides plenty of margin. There are many power distribution schemes out there besides the "essential buss" that seems to be popular. Happy to share how I did this on a series of RVs if interested. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Linn Walters Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 10:16 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Dual battery isolation Sorry guys ..... I just don't understand. I've deleted a couple of my 'replies' to this thread before I hit 'send' already because I can't offer anything really constructive ..... other than this is what happens when you violate the 'KISS' principle. Why do you need two batteries? Oh, the 'essential buss'. Well, I have switches and fuses for removing all items that do not have their own on/off switch. I can take the time to do that after I get a 'low voltage' warning from multiple sources. Want more cranking power? Use a higher CCA battery. Still want to isolate that battery and load? A switch and a high current relay work really well but suffers from the human not being automatic ......... So, now we add more and more failure points, weight, and $$$ ........ it all adds up, an ounce here and a penny there .... soon you have pounds and an 'aviation dollar'. Linn .... KISS supporter (and IMHO) On 7/14/2015 9:53 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > > Good point. > For a boat, if it were me, I'd either add a switch then in series so I > could get rid of that connection when trolling, or, you could stick in > a relay that is either tweaked so that it only closes the relay when > you get a charging voltage over a certain setpoint, like 13.2V or > something...or, it only closes when the engine is running (detected by > some other means). Really, personally, I would probably in real life > not even bother to hack this stuff together. > Parts add up to $$ eventually, and I'd rather buy a product like that > $109.97 automatic charging relay, that is well made. So I wouldn't > even screw with the stuff you're looking for. > > In the plane, it was easy for me to do what I wanted though. > Tim > > > On 7/14/2015 8:02 AM, lewgall(at)charter.net wrote: >> Hmmm, the part number DSS2x121-0045B looks like it is two diodes side >> by side? That's why I was thinking total isolation. I wouldn't want >> the main battery to be drained by running the trolling motor for >> hours while the engine is off. >> >> For RV application, you might be interested in researching this >> automatic charging relay with start isolation by Blue Sea Systems >> https://www.bluesea.com/products/7610/SI-ACR_Automatic_Charging_Relay >> _-_12_24V_DC_120A >> >> >> >> I'll see if attaching the pdf instructions to this works. >> >> Later, - Lew >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Tim Olson >> Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 7:14 AM >> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Dual battery isolation >> >> >> I would just keep the one battery the way it is, charging off the >> motor, and then put the diode between the positive terminals of the >> batteries so that the second battery charges off the first battery. >> It won't flow power back from that second to the first, but if >> they're the same type of battery it should keep them both charged. >> Now, if they aren't the same battery chemistry, I'd rethink it all >> and probably buy that special charger. (i.e. if one is a normal >> starting battery and one is deep cycle or something like that) I'm >> not sure what adjustments you'd have to make for the various battery >> chemistries. It's much easier if you are dealing with the same >> battery types. >> Tim >> >> On 7/13/2015 9:13 PM, lewgall(at)charter.net wrote: >>> >>> >>> Thanks for the lightning response, Tim. I'm on it. I assume I can >>> just put the charge wire from the motor to both diodes, then from >>> each diode to each battery? >>> >>> Later, - Lew >> >> >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 07/14/15 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Jul 14, 2015
IMHO, brownout is one of the lowest priority justifications. If you expect to fly lots of IFR in areas where widespread IFR is common, that might be a reason. With a glass panel, you only need one panel on for engine start, to monitor oil pressure, etc. Most glass panels today are designed to tolerate down to 8 or 9 volts, so brownout is unlikely. With a glass panel you either want mechanical gyro backup or at least a backup battery for the glass panel, by itself. Navigating and communicating can be done with portable backups. Keeping upright is better done with keeping the EFIS alive than depending on a portable tablet, etc. Or a couple companies offer mini-EFIS that will run for 3-4 hours on batteries, in case you lose all your electrics. I am very comfortable with my choices of single electrical system, single battery, with backup battery on each of the two EFIS, with a Dynon D1 mini-EFIS for backup and tie-breaking. On 7/14/2015 7:50 AM, Dj Merrill wrote: > > On 07/14/2015 10:15 AM, Linn Walters wrote: >> Why do you need two batteries? > Brownout. > > With a glass panel, cranking the engine causes the panel to reboot, > which is a real PITA. > > You can either have independent internal batteries for every electronic > device, or follow the KISS principal and have a single second battery on > an essential buss to keep everything up and running. > > -Dj > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2015
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net>
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
On 07/14/2015 12:45 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > IMHO, brownout is one of the lowest priority justifications. The beauty of experimental aviation is that we each get to choose our own priorities. For me, brownout protection is a high priority. > Most glass panels today are designed to tolerate down to 8 or 9 volts, > so brownout is unlikely. I can confirm that my panel reboots if the secondary battery is not on, and several others on here have written similar reports, so I'd actually say it seems like brownout is very likely without having a secondary power source for the display. In your description you say that you have secondary batteries for each of your two EFIS units, which provide the same functionality, with a slightly higher maintenance cost but also slightly higher redundancy. That's two different ways to solve the same issues, and I'm sure others have other possible solutions as well. The important end result is one that each person feels comfortable with, and none of the solutions are any more "right" or "wrong" than another. For me, it is more than just an inconvenience. My flow is to have everything powered up, freqs set, checks done, flight plan entered, etc and then start the engine. Once the engine is started, your attention needs to be outside of the aircraft, not focused inside on the pretty displays. This is basic safety 101. -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV - EAA Chapter 87 Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2015
From: Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
My only response to 'brownout' while cranking is ..... you might have an electrical problem. Most likely causes would be using the airframe and #4 jumpers across the engine mount isolators. Vans uses flat braid and crimp connectors .... but a lot of builders just bolt them down without cleaning the paint from under the lugs. I ran a #2 ground wire from the battery to the engine case using firewall bulkhead connectors (from a race car site). Yes, a little more weight ...... but should not have any electrical issues. You're right about the internal batteries though, I have two MGL Odyssey panels, and each has it's own backup battery ..... same battery used in most emergency exit lights. Yes, I have to flip a switch to charge them, and the switches are mounted right next to the panel's power switch. You do not need another huge battery for today's glass panels ...... Linn On 7/14/2015 10:50 AM, Dj Merrill wrote: > > On 07/14/2015 10:15 AM, Linn Walters wrote: >> Why do you need two batteries? > Brownout. > > With a glass panel, cranking the engine causes the panel to reboot, > which is a real PITA. > > You can either have independent internal batteries for every electronic > device, or follow the KISS principal and have a single second battery on > an essential buss to keep everything up and running. > > -Dj > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2015
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net>
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
On 07/14/2015 01:36 PM, Linn Walters wrote: > > My only response to 'brownout' while cranking is ..... you might have an > electrical problem. Yes, the problem is that the starter load reduces the voltage to the other electrical devices, causing them to reboot. This is a well known and much discussed issue. Nothing out of the ordinary at all. My setup has two separate grounding cables from the engine to a common grounding block that passes through the firewall to a "forest of tabs" on the other side. This is the singular grounding location for the entire airframe, and nothing uses the airframe itself for grounding. > You do not need another huge battery for today's glass panels Exactly. My secondary battery is a small 7ah battery much the same as used in the emergency exit lights or small UPS. It not only feeds the two EFIS units, but also the GNS480 and the electronic ignition, so everything critical has a backup power source. Rather than having two secondary batteries to maintain like you have, I just have a single one and it charges automatically via a diode. Kinda sounds like my system is a bit simpler than yours... *wink* -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV - EAA Chapter 87 Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2015
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
I feel the same as Dj. I'm going to disconnect from the conversation because these days I tire of the same old discussions, but, I'll give one more senario that I like having everything stay up for. When flying IFR, I've had a bunch of occasions where I sat in the plane and fired up my primary screen, and my WSI system, to get a good look at dark storm cells adjacent to my area. I wanted to check to see what they were doing and if I could depart and get routed out of the airport environment without worry. It takes a few minutes for any weather system to start putting together the data to get a good display. So, I have my WSI set up with a small switch to either use the e-bus or main bus. But on days like that, I like to have my panel humming, my flight plan entered and everything all updated as to WX, before I launch. Sometimes you have to phone call Clearance delivery and they have you sit tight a bit. It's nice to be able to shut down the engine and just sit it out, and then fire it back up without having to re-enter and re-boot everything. Kelly is just wrong about the EFIS's not rebooting. They can. There are too many brands and models to make a blanket statement like that. Mine does. And even if it didn't, I'd rather have it keep full line voltage. So my system does what I want it to do. There are also many different types of starters, that may draw more or less current. Mine seems to take quite a bit. For many people I would suggest you check out TCW Tech's various things like Intelligent power stabilizers and such. They have great products that can make all this much easier for you. It takes a lot off your thinking-plate when worrying about such things. At any rate as for the way the electrical system works, I felt I wanted it, needed it, and could do it, so I did. To each his own. With that, I'll exit the discussion because with 9+ years of flying behind the system, I'm very happy with it and it's not going to do me much good to argue with anyone on it. To me it's just wasted time that I can never get back. Tim On 7/14/2015 12:25 PM, Dj Merrill wrote: > > On 07/14/2015 12:45 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >> IMHO, brownout is one of the lowest priority justifications. > > The beauty of experimental aviation is that we each get to choose our > own priorities. For me, brownout protection is a high priority. > > >> Most glass panels today are designed to tolerate down to 8 or 9 volts, >> so brownout is unlikely. > > I can confirm that my panel reboots if the secondary battery is not on, > and several others on here have written similar reports, so I'd actually > say it seems like brownout is very likely without having a secondary > power source for the display. In your description you say that you have > secondary batteries for each of your two EFIS units, which provide the > same functionality, with a slightly higher maintenance cost but also > slightly higher redundancy. > > That's two different ways to solve the same issues, and I'm sure others > have other possible solutions as well. The important end result is one > that each person feels comfortable with, and none of the solutions are > any more "right" or "wrong" than another. > > For me, it is more than just an inconvenience. My flow is to have > everything powered up, freqs set, checks done, flight plan entered, etc > and then start the engine. > > Once the engine is started, your attention needs to be outside of the > aircraft, not focused inside on the pretty displays. This is basic > safety 101. > > -Dj > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2015
From: Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
Tim, thanks for weighing in before you bailed out .... you raise some very valid points. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind .... just offering a different point of view, a result of my experience troubleshooting other peoples electrical problems. Typically the problems are grounds related. If you're suffering brown-out problems go to Sky-Tecs troubleshooting page ..... http://www.skytecair.com/Troubleshooting.htm. It may not help everyone, but it's worth a try. Linn On 7/14/2015 2:08 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > I feel the same as Dj. > > I'm going to disconnect from the conversation because these > days I tire of the same old discussions, but, I'll give one > more senario that I like having everything stay up for. > > When flying IFR, I've had a bunch of occasions where I > sat in the plane and fired up my primary screen, and > my WSI system, to get a good look at dark storm cells > adjacent to my area. I wanted to check to see what > they were doing and if I could depart and get routed > out of the airport environment without worry. > It takes a few minutes for any weather system to start > putting together the data to get a good display. > So, I have my WSI set up with a small switch to either > use the e-bus or main bus. But on days like that, I like > to have my panel humming, my flight plan entered and > everything all updated as to WX, before I launch. Sometimes > you have to phone call Clearance delivery and they have you > sit tight a bit. It's nice to be able to shut down the > engine and just sit it out, and then fire it back up without > having to re-enter and re-boot everything. Kelly is > just wrong about the EFIS's not rebooting. They can. > There are too many brands and models to make a blanket > statement like that. Mine does. And even if it didn't, > I'd rather have it keep full line voltage. So my > system does what I want it to do. There are also many > different types of starters, that may draw more or less > current. Mine seems to take quite a bit. > > For many people I would suggest you check out > TCW Tech's various things like Intelligent power stabilizers > and such. They have great products that can make > all this much easier for you. > It takes a lot off your thinking-plate when worrying > about such things. At any rate as for the way the > electrical system works, I felt I wanted it, > needed it, and could do it, so I did. To each his own. > > With that, I'll exit the discussion because with > 9+ years of flying behind the system, I'm very happy > with it and it's not going to do me much good to > argue with anyone on it. To me it's just wasted time > that I can never get back. > > Tim > > > On 7/14/2015 12:25 PM, Dj Merrill wrote: >> >> On 07/14/2015 12:45 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >>> IMHO, brownout is one of the lowest priority justifications. >> >> The beauty of experimental aviation is that we each get to choose our >> own priorities. For me, brownout protection is a high priority. >> >> >>> Most glass panels today are designed to tolerate down to 8 or 9 volts, >>> so brownout is unlikely. >> >> I can confirm that my panel reboots if the secondary battery is not on, >> and several others on here have written similar reports, so I'd actually >> say it seems like brownout is very likely without having a secondary >> power source for the display. In your description you say that you have >> secondary batteries for each of your two EFIS units, which provide the >> same functionality, with a slightly higher maintenance cost but also >> slightly higher redundancy. >> >> That's two different ways to solve the same issues, and I'm sure others >> have other possible solutions as well. The important end result is one >> that each person feels comfortable with, and none of the solutions are >> any more "right" or "wrong" than another. >> >> For me, it is more than just an inconvenience. My flow is to have >> everything powered up, freqs set, checks done, flight plan entered, etc >> and then start the engine. >> >> Once the engine is started, your attention needs to be outside of the >> aircraft, not focused inside on the pretty displays. This is basic >> safety 101. >> >> -Dj >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 07/14/15 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2015
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
No problem Linn, I do believe in the KISS principle. It usually makes everything more reliable. In my case, I actually consider it a pretty simplistic system....it's just a little complex to think through on the wiring, but the actual connections involved aren't complicated at all. A couple diodes and a couple relays and you're set. Regarding the starter, yeah, you can reduce the brown-out issues, but I don't think it's practical to think you can always keep your avionics above, say, 10V, and I know there are components that can't handle less than 9 or 10V, so rather than worry about it, IMHO it's better to just deal with it. Even a great working starter and perfect ground is likely to see a sag that goes under 10V. Beyond that, the more battery you put in the plane, the longer your endurance is if you lose an alternator. And, the longer you can run ground tests on items. I have people I know who can't hardly configure their systems to do software updates because they'll drain their battery too quick. I want to have a good amount of time for everything. So there are multiple goals, and no matter what you do there is a compromise. The key is fully thinking through YOUR situation with YOUR equipment, and YOUR goals, and then coming up with what you need. Then you can optimize your system for your plane and your methods of flying. I do, however, agree that KISS counts. I constantly have to try to convince other builders and even people at work when designing network and system redundancy, that often times the more components you throw in the harder it is to guarantee reliability. But there is also a minimum parts count that works as well. Tim On 7/14/2015 1:26 PM, Linn Walters wrote: > > Tim, thanks for weighing in before you bailed out .... you raise some > very valid points. > > I'm not trying to change anyone's mind .... just offering a different > point of view, a result of my experience troubleshooting other peoples > electrical problems. Typically the problems are grounds related. If > you're suffering brown-out problems go to Sky-Tecs troubleshooting page > ..... http://www.skytecair.com/Troubleshooting.htm. It may not help > everyone, but it's worth a try. > Linn > > > On 7/14/2015 2:08 PM, Tim Olson wrote: >> >> I feel the same as Dj. >> >> I'm going to disconnect from the conversation because these >> days I tire of the same old discussions, but, I'll give one >> more senario that I like having everything stay up for. >> >> When flying IFR, I've had a bunch of occasions where I >> sat in the plane and fired up my primary screen, and >> my WSI system, to get a good look at dark storm cells >> adjacent to my area. I wanted to check to see what >> they were doing and if I could depart and get routed >> out of the airport environment without worry. >> It takes a few minutes for any weather system to start >> putting together the data to get a good display. >> So, I have my WSI set up with a small switch to either >> use the e-bus or main bus. But on days like that, I like >> to have my panel humming, my flight plan entered and >> everything all updated as to WX, before I launch. Sometimes >> you have to phone call Clearance delivery and they have you >> sit tight a bit. It's nice to be able to shut down the >> engine and just sit it out, and then fire it back up without >> having to re-enter and re-boot everything. Kelly is >> just wrong about the EFIS's not rebooting. They can. >> There are too many brands and models to make a blanket >> statement like that. Mine does. And even if it didn't, >> I'd rather have it keep full line voltage. So my >> system does what I want it to do. There are also many >> different types of starters, that may draw more or less >> current. Mine seems to take quite a bit. >> >> For many people I would suggest you check out >> TCW Tech's various things like Intelligent power stabilizers >> and such. They have great products that can make >> all this much easier for you. >> It takes a lot off your thinking-plate when worrying >> about such things. At any rate as for the way the >> electrical system works, I felt I wanted it, >> needed it, and could do it, so I did. To each his own. >> >> With that, I'll exit the discussion because with >> 9+ years of flying behind the system, I'm very happy >> with it and it's not going to do me much good to >> argue with anyone on it. To me it's just wasted time >> that I can never get back. >> >> Tim >> >> >> >> On 7/14/2015 12:25 PM, Dj Merrill wrote: >>> >>> On 07/14/2015 12:45 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >>>> IMHO, brownout is one of the lowest priority justifications. >>> >>> The beauty of experimental aviation is that we each get to choose our >>> own priorities. For me, brownout protection is a high priority. >>> >>> >>>> Most glass panels today are designed to tolerate down to 8 or 9 volts, >>>> so brownout is unlikely. >>> >>> I can confirm that my panel reboots if the secondary battery is not on, >>> and several others on here have written similar reports, so I'd actually >>> say it seems like brownout is very likely without having a secondary >>> power source for the display. In your description you say that you have >>> secondary batteries for each of your two EFIS units, which provide the >>> same functionality, with a slightly higher maintenance cost but also >>> slightly higher redundancy. >>> >>> That's two different ways to solve the same issues, and I'm sure others >>> have other possible solutions as well. The important end result is one >>> that each person feels comfortable with, and none of the solutions are >>> any more "right" or "wrong" than another. >>> >>> For me, it is more than just an inconvenience. My flow is to have >>> everything powered up, freqs set, checks done, flight plan entered, etc >>> and then start the engine. >>> >>> Once the engine is started, your attention needs to be outside of the >>> aircraft, not focused inside on the pretty displays. This is basic >>> safety 101. >>> >>> -Dj >>> >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2015
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Tim, and others, I agree that having one screen up and everything running before engine start is useful. Dynon Skyview specifically says it will tolerate cranking with the screen on. I wrongly ass-umed that the other brands would have adopted similar power supplies by now. Yes, having backup battery eliminates the cranking problem if the EFIS won't tolerate low voltage. Most certified avionics these days are designed to comply with latest DO-160 standard. I believe it calls for tolerating 8-32 volts. Of course that just means it won't do damage, but may reboot. It has been rather infrequent for me to operate from an uncontrolled field and go through the gyrations for IFR clearance/release. A few systems let you just transfer your flight plan from your Ipad to the PFD/MFD system to eliminate the extra data entry. Heck, in Aridzona it is a really rare day for IFR weather that you would want to penetrate with a single engine piston aircraft. As always, there is no one right choice for everyone, and experimental lets s all make our own choices. On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > > No problem Linn, > I do believe in the KISS principle. It usually makes everything > more reliable. In my case, I actually consider it a pretty > simplistic system....it's just a little complex to think > through on the wiring, but the actual connections involved > aren't complicated at all. A couple diodes and a couple > relays and you're set. > > Regarding the starter, yeah, you can reduce the brown-out issues, > but I don't think it's practical to think you can always keep > your avionics above, say, 10V, and I know there are components > that can't handle less than 9 or 10V, so rather than worry about > it, IMHO it's better to just deal with it. Even a great > working starter and perfect ground is likely to see a sag that > goes under 10V. > > Beyond that, the more battery you put in the plane, the longer > your endurance is if you lose an alternator. And, the longer > you can run ground tests on items. I have people I know who > can't hardly configure their systems to do software updates > because they'll drain their battery too quick. I want to have > a good amount of time for everything. So there are multiple > goals, and no matter what you do there is a compromise. > The key is fully thinking through YOUR situation with YOUR > equipment, and YOUR goals, and then coming up with what > you need. Then you can optimize your system for your plane > and your methods of flying. > > I do, however, agree that KISS counts. I constantly have to > try to convince other builders and even people at work > when designing network and system redundancy, that often > times the more components you throw in the harder it is to > guarantee reliability. But there is also a minimum parts > count that works as well. > > Tim > > > On 7/14/2015 1:26 PM, Linn Walters wrote: > >> >> Tim, thanks for weighing in before you bailed out .... you raise some >> very valid points. >> >> I'm not trying to change anyone's mind .... just offering a different >> point of view, a result of my experience troubleshooting other peoples >> electrical problems. Typically the problems are grounds related. If >> you're suffering brown-out problems go to Sky-Tecs troubleshooting page >> ..... http://www.skytecair.com/Troubleshooting.htm. It may not help >> everyone, but it's worth a try. >> Linn >> >> >> On 7/14/2015 2:08 PM, Tim Olson wrote: >> >>> >>> I feel the same as Dj. >>> >>> I'm going to disconnect from the conversation because these >>> days I tire of the same old discussions, but, I'll give one >>> more senario that I like having everything stay up for. >>> >>> When flying IFR, I've had a bunch of occasions where I >>> sat in the plane and fired up my primary screen, and >>> my WSI system, to get a good look at dark storm cells >>> adjacent to my area. I wanted to check to see what >>> they were doing and if I could depart and get routed >>> out of the airport environment without worry. >>> It takes a few minutes for any weather system to start >>> putting together the data to get a good display. >>> So, I have my WSI set up with a small switch to either >>> use the e-bus or main bus. But on days like that, I like >>> to have my panel humming, my flight plan entered and >>> everything all updated as to WX, before I launch. Sometimes >>> you have to phone call Clearance delivery and they have you >>> sit tight a bit. It's nice to be able to shut down the >>> engine and just sit it out, and then fire it back up without >>> having to re-enter and re-boot everything. Kelly is >>> just wrong about the EFIS's not rebooting. They can. >>> There are too many brands and models to make a blanket >>> statement like that. Mine does. And even if it didn't, >>> I'd rather have it keep full line voltage. So my >>> system does what I want it to do. There are also many >>> different types of starters, that may draw more or less >>> current. Mine seems to take quite a bit. >>> >>> For many people I would suggest you check out >>> TCW Tech's various things like Intelligent power stabilizers >>> and such. They have great products that can make >>> all this much easier for you. >>> It takes a lot off your thinking-plate when worrying >>> about such things. At any rate as for the way the >>> electrical system works, I felt I wanted it, >>> needed it, and could do it, so I did. To each his own. >>> >>> With that, I'll exit the discussion because with >>> 9+ years of flying behind the system, I'm very happy >>> with it and it's not going to do me much good to >>> argue with anyone on it. To me it's just wasted time >>> that I can never get back. >>> >>> Tim >>> >>> >>> >>> On 7/14/2015 12:25 PM, Dj Merrill wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 07/14/2015 12:45 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >>>> >>>>> IMHO, brownout is one of the lowest priority justifications. >>>>> >>>> >>>> The beauty of experimental aviation is that we each get to choose our >>>> own priorities. For me, brownout protection is a high priority. >>>> >>>> >>>> Most glass panels today are designed to tolerate down to 8 or 9 volts, >>>>> so brownout is unlikely. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I can confirm that my panel reboots if the secondary battery is not on, >>>> and several others on here have written similar reports, so I'd actually >>>> say it seems like brownout is very likely without having a secondary >>>> power source for the display. In your description you say that you have >>>> secondary batteries for each of your two EFIS units, which provide the >>>> same functionality, with a slightly higher maintenance cost but also >>>> slightly higher redundancy. >>>> >>>> That's two different ways to solve the same issues, and I'm sure others >>>> have other possible solutions as well. The important end result is one >>>> that each person feels comfortable with, and none of the solutions are >>>> any more "right" or "wrong" than another. >>>> >>>> For me, it is more than just an inconvenience. My flow is to have >>>> everything powered up, freqs set, checks done, flight plan entered, etc >>>> and then start the engine. >>>> >>>> Once the engine is started, your attention needs to be outside of the >>>> aircraft, not focused inside on the pretty displays. This is basic >>>> safety 101. >>>> >>>> -Dj >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Jul 14, 2015
Another thought...there are major differences between varying starters, as to current draw. The Skytec PM models have among the highest draw. Other designs draw a lot less. Peak may be anywhere from 150 amps to 300 amps. On 7/14/2015 10:36 AM, Linn Walters wrote: > > My only response to 'brownout' while cranking is ..... you might have > an electrical problem. > Most likely causes would be using the airframe and #4 jumpers across > the engine mount isolators. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
From: Kevin Belue <kdb.rv10(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 14, 2015
Each person has their choice of justification. I have two batteries because I don't want brownout to occur and I want a backup starting battery. I have needed the extra starting battery at times and brownout does occur when the EFIS is running off of the start battery. It takes a while for everything to boot when that occurs. I'm not going to take off while the system is booting and in the summer it can get hot while waiting on everything. Two pc680 weigh about the same as one Concord, so no bad effects there. Everything works well and it's what I want. Each person has to decide what works for them ..... Kevin Belue Sent from my iPhone On Jul 14, 2015, at 11:45 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > IMHO, brownout is one of the lowest priority justifications. > If you expect to fly lots of IFR in areas where widespread IFR is common, that might be a reason. > With a glass panel, you only need one panel on for engine start, to monitor oil pressure, etc. > Most glass panels today are designed to tolerate down to 8 or 9 volts, so brownout is unlikely. > With a glass panel you either want mechanical gyro backup or at least a backup battery for the glass panel, by itself. Navigating and communicating can be done with portable backups. Keeping upright is better done with keeping the EFIS alive than depending on a portable tablet, etc. > Or a couple companies offer mini-EFIS that will run for 3-4 hours on batteries, in case you lose all your electrics. I am very comfortable with my choices of single electrical system, single battery, with backup battery on each of the two EFIS, with a Dynon D1 mini-EFIS for backup and tie-breaking. > > > On 7/14/2015 7:50 AM, Dj Merrill wrote: >> >> On 07/14/2015 10:15 AM, Linn Walters wrote: >>> Why do you need two batteries? >> Brownout. >> >> With a glass panel, cranking the engine causes the panel to reboot, >> which is a real PITA. >> >> You can either have independent internal batteries for every electronic >> device, or follow the KISS principal and have a single second battery on >> an essential buss to keep everything up and running. >> >> -Dj >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2015
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
What Tim and DJ said. Same here for many of the same reasons. It really would be good if some would refrain from calling this need some of us have a 'problem'. It's not. It's a need that can be readily satisfied a number of ways - moving to AZ is not one of them for this flyer. (Electron Master Nuckolls excepted; he can 'dis' my 'kitchen sink' panel all day long since he has been so instrumental in enabling said 'kitchen sink' - Thanks Again Bob!) Running the panel, sometimes for extended periods, before engine start is a very useful thing and something I had established the need for long before I flew the '10. Sitting in Saratoga with snow falling waiting for a void time clearance with multiple incoming planes. Worse case, New Orleans the year after the flood. No terminals in the temporary FBO structure and the usual coastal cells floating by. Watching the cells out on the ramp waiting for the gaps to line up before start up and departure made the case for me. IFR practicalities - I like to get my departure clearance, translate the airways on the iPad, then enter in the G430w - all before engine start. Add in an interupt for a passenger wanting one more shot at the loo and there goes the battery. Oh, for KISSes sake I don't have an avionics master or switches for my individual GRT units so my 3 GRTs are powered on for every start, and the G430 is powered up by choice. They will brown out in normal ops if a single battery is used. I did a Z-14 dual batt, dual alt, dual bus installation and love it. Two 680s provide the juice. The buses are run separately except for engine start. There are simpler configs I guess but when I sketched it out and found symmetry, everything became simple for me - I was sold. So, sitting at Osh last year trying to get out when the Breezy crashed. Airport shutdown, conga lines in all directions. I have to admit I screwed this one up. Instead of shutting down each time move and came to an extended shop, I kept the engine running and eventually fouled a plug. But I could have shut down as needed with the panel humming along, all information sources online, no need to go to backups. When I did get out that evening after cleaning the plug, the usual cells were dancing across the airport and I was given some priority getting out. Having the weather displayed, flight plan input and everything up and running was priceless - especially with a friend's 11 and 13 year old distractors in the back. The Z-14 is a luxury and not required unless you are building a twin - but I'd recommend it to anyone who enjoys more bulletproofing. Bill 'getting psyched to do more flying and less fishing' Watson On 7/14/2015 2:08 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > I feel the same as Dj. > > I'm going to disconnect from the conversation because these > days I tire of the same old discussions, but, I'll give one > more senario that I like having everything stay up for. > > When flying IFR, I've had a bunch of occasions where I > sat in the plane and fired up my primary screen, and > my WSI system, to get a good look at dark storm cells > adjacent to my area. I wanted to check to see what > they were doing and if I could depart and get routed > out of the airport environment without worry. > It takes a few minutes for any weather system to start > putting together the data to get a good display. > So, I have my WSI set up with a small switch to either > use the e-bus or main bus. But on days like that, I like > to have my panel humming, my flight plan entered and > everything all updated as to WX, before I launch. Sometimes > you have to phone call Clearance delivery and they have you > sit tight a bit. It's nice to be able to shut down the > engine and just sit it out, and then fire it back up without > having to re-enter and re-boot everything. Kelly is > just wrong about the EFIS's not rebooting. They can. > There are too many brands and models to make a blanket > statement like that. Mine does. And even if it didn't, > I'd rather have it keep full line voltage. So my > system does what I want it to do. There are also many > different types of starters, that may draw more or less > current. Mine seems to take quite a bit. > > For many people I would suggest you check out > TCW Tech's various things like Intelligent power stabilizers > and such. They have great products that can make > all this much easier for you. > It takes a lot off your thinking-plate when worrying > about such things. At any rate as for the way the > electrical system works, I felt I wanted it, > needed it, and could do it, so I did. To each his own. > > With that, I'll exit the discussion because with > 9+ years of flying behind the system, I'm very happy > with it and it's not going to do me much good to > argue with anyone on it. To me it's just wasted time > that I can never get back. > > Tim > > > On 7/14/2015 12:25 PM, Dj Merrill wrote: >> >> On 07/14/2015 12:45 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >>> IMHO, brownout is one of the lowest priority justifications. >> >> The beauty of experimental aviation is that we each get to choose our >> own priorities. For me, brownout protection is a high priority. >> >> >>> Most glass panels today are designed to tolerate down to 8 or 9 volts, >>> so brownout is unlikely. >> >> I can confirm that my panel reboots if the secondary battery is not on, >> and several others on here have written similar reports, so I'd actually >> say it seems like brownout is very likely without having a secondary >> power source for the display. In your description you say that you have >> secondary batteries for each of your two EFIS units, which provide the >> same functionality, with a slightly higher maintenance cost but also >> slightly higher redundancy. >> >> That's two different ways to solve the same issues, and I'm sure others >> have other possible solutions as well. The important end result is one >> that each person feels comfortable with, and none of the solutions are >> any more "right" or "wrong" than another. >> >> For me, it is more than just an inconvenience. My flow is to have >> everything powered up, freqs set, checks done, flight plan entered, etc >> and then start the engine. >> >> Once the engine is started, your attention needs to be outside of the >> aircraft, not focused inside on the pretty displays. This is basic >> safety 101. >> >> -Dj >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 07/14/15 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: KOSH Request
From: "kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jul 14, 2015
Hi I have a small request for one of the hardy souls present at KOSH for the opening bell. Specifically, I'd would really appreciate a PIREP on the state of the HBP area. I am told that things have been very wet this year and would like to know what is in store on the parking grass. Cheers Les Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444774#444774 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2015
Subject: Re: KOSH Request
From: Bob Condrey <condreyb(at)gmail.com>
It rained the last couple of nights but is supposed to be relatively dry for the next several days. Ground is still pretty firm. No planes yet in the Vans part of HBP but a couple of showplaces and several in vintage are tied down and look good. Worst case, just bring 3 small pieces of plywood to put under the tires. Just don't forget to pick them up when you leave. Bob On Tuesday, July 14, 2015, kearney wrote: > > > > Hi > > I have a small request for one of the hardy souls present at KOSH for the > opening bell. Specifically, I'd would really appreciate a PIREP on the > state of the HBP area. I am told that things have been very wet this year > and would like to know what is in store on the parking grass. > > Cheers > > Les > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444774#444774 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: KOSH Request
From: "kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jul 14, 2015
Hi Bob Thanks for the info. I am glad to hear the ground is still firm. I am told that there has been a lot of rain in Chicago and I was concerned it meant that KOSH was getting saturated as well. I have already stowed my OSB squares for the wheels so I won't risk sinking if it rains. Cheers Les. [quote="bcondrey"]It rained the last couple of nights but is supposed to be relatively dry for the next several days. Ground is still pretty firm. No planes yet in the Vans part of HBP but a couple of showplaces and several in vintage are tied down and look good. Worst case, just bring 3 small pieces of plywood to put under the tires. Just don't forget to pick them up when you leave. Bob On Tuesday, July 14, 2015, kearney wrote: > > Hi > > I have a small request for one of the hardy souls present at KOSH for the opening bell. Specifically, I'd would really appreciate a PIREP on the state of the HBP area. I am told that things have been very wet this year and would like to know what is in store on the parking grass. > > Cheers > > Les > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444774#444774 (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444774#444774) > > > > > > > > ========== > -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > ========== > FORUMS - > _blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > > [b] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444776#444776 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2015
Subject: Re: KOSH Request
From: Bob Condrey <condreyb(at)gmail.com>
There's even a Beech 18 sitting in Vintage and it's not up to the axles! Bob On Tuesday, July 14, 2015, kearney wrote: > > > > Hi Bob > > Thanks for the info. I am glad to hear the ground is still firm. I am told > that there has been a lot of rain in Chicago and I was concerned it meant > that KOSH was getting saturated as well. > > I have already stowed my OSB squares for the wheels so I won't risk > sinking if it rains. > > Cheers > > Les. > > > [quote="bcondrey"]It rained the last couple of nights but is supposed to > be relatively dry for the next several days. Ground is still pretty firm. > No planes yet in the Vans part of HBP but a couple of showplaces and > several in vintage are tied down and look good. Worst case, just bring 3 > small pieces of plywood to put under the tires. Just don't forget to pick > them up when you leave. > > Bob > > On Tuesday, July 14, 2015, kearney wrote: > > > > > Hi > > > > I have a small request for one of the hardy souls present at KOSH for > the opening bell. Specifically, I'd would really appreciate a PIREP on the > state of the HBP area. I am told that things have been very wet this year > and would like to know what is in store on the parking grass. > > > > Cheers > > > > Les > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444774#444774 ( > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444774#444774) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > > ========== > > FORUMS - > > _blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > [b] > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444776#444776 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: engine cables
From: "Mike Whisky" <rv-10(at)wellenzohn.net>
Date: Jul 15, 2015
David, Are you using a quadrant or venier? Just asking for regarding the length. Do you have the ACS number by chance. Thanks Michael -------- RV-10 builder (flying) #511 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444789#444789 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Door gap size?
From: "digidocs" <junk(at)dcarr.org>
Date: Jul 16, 2015
Hey list, I'm mentally preparing for the great door edge fill/sand and I'm curious what size gap you'd recommend around the edge of the door---0.020", 0.040", 0.060"? Thanks, David Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444824#444824 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com>
Subject: Re: Door gap size?
Date: Jul 16, 2015
finger nail... Jeff Carpenter 40304 On Jul 16, 2015, at 10:11 AM, digidocs wrote: > > Hey list, > > I'm mentally preparing for the great door edge fill/sand and I'm curious what size gap you'd recommend around the edge of the door---0.020", 0.040", 0.060"? > > Thanks, > David > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444824#444824 > > > > > > > > > > Westcott Press 1121 Isabel Street Burbank, CA 91506 jeff(at)westcottpress.com 818-861-7300 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Door gap size?
Date: Jul 16, 2015
David, Just walked down and measured mine - about 0.050. For the last step in this I put a thin layer of mico over the entire door and cabin top gap (door shut and locked). After it set up a little I took a razor and cut along the gap. It needs to set up enough so it is like cutting clay. After the mico cures then do a final sand. This provided a means to have a very uniform and level fit. This is also a good process to have a perfect oil door fit. After all that - you then get to chase pin holes for a few weeks. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of digidocs Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 1:11 PM Subject: RV10-List: Door gap size? Hey list, I'm mentally preparing for the great door edge fill/sand and I'm curious what size gap you'd recommend around the edge of the door---0.020", 0.040", 0.060"? Thanks, David Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444824#444824 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 16, 2015
Subject: Re: Door gap size?
From: John Trollinger <john(at)trollingers.com>
wow, that is great, mine is not near that... On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Jeff Carpenter wrote: > finger nail... > > > Jeff Carpenter > 40304 > > > On Jul 16, 2015, at 10:11 AM, digidocs wrote: > > > Hey list, > > I'm mentally preparing for the great door edge fill/sand and I'm curious > what size gap you'd recommend around the edge of the door---0.020", 0.040", > 0.060"? > > Thanks, > David > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444824#444824 > > > - The RV10-List --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > > http://www.matronics.com/co================ > > > Westcott Press > 1121 Isabel Street > Burbank, CA 91506 > jeff(at)westcottpress.com > 818-861-7300 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 16, 2015
Subject: Re: Door gap size?
From: Shannon Hicks <civeng123(at)gmail.com>
You guys have some amazing fiberglass skills. I think mine is +- .25"! Shannon On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 1:55 PM, John Trollinger wrote: > wow, that is great, mine is not near that... > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Jeff Carpenter > wrote: > >> finger nail... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jeff Carpenter >> 40304 >> >> >> >> On Jul 16, 2015, at 10:11 AM, digidocs wrote: >> >> >> Hey list, >> >> I'm mentally preparing for the great door edge fill/sand and I'm curious >> what size gap you'd recommend around the edge of the door---0.020", 0.040", >> 0.060"? >> >> Thanks, >> David >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444824#444824 >> >> >> >> - The RV10-List --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >> >> http://www.matronics.com/co================ >> >> >> >> >> Westcott Press >> 1121 Isabel Street >> Burbank, CA 91506 >> jeff(at)westcottpress.com >> 818-861-7300 >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Geoff Combs" <g.combs(at)aerosportmodeling.com>
Subject: Door gap size?
Date: Jul 16, 2015
I would go no smaller than .06 finished. I would say .070-.080. with no paint Only reason is that if every the door edge and the cabin top meet The paint will start to chip on that edge. FWIW Geoff Combs From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Shannon Hicks Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 3:04 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Door gap size? You guys have some amazing fiberglass skills. I think mine is +- .25"! Shannon On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 1:55 PM, John Trollinger > wrote: wow, that is great, mine is not near that... On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Jeff Carpenter > wrote: finger nail... Jeff Carpenter 40304 On Jul 16, 2015, at 10:11 AM, digidocs wrote: > Hey list, I'm mentally preparing for the great door edge fill/sand and I'm curious what size gap you'd recommend around the edge of the door---0.020", 0.040", 0.060"? Thanks, David Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444824#444824 - The RV10-List --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://www.matronics.com/co================ Westcott Press 1121 Isabel Street Burbank, CA 91506 jeff(at)westcottpress.com 818-861-7300 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Door gap size?
From: Gary <speckter(at)comcast.net>
Date: Jul 16, 2015
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Door gap size?
From: "digidocs" <junk(at)dcarr.org>
Date: Jul 16, 2015
Lot's of great information and quality work here! I think I'll shoot for .040" or so and see where it ends up. David Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444862#444862 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 16, 2015
Subject: Re: Door gap size?
From: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Geoff makes an excellent point that shouldn't be overlooked. There are several techniques that you can use to get an almost 'invisible' gap between doors and cabin. However...... 1. The original issue arose because the radius on the cabin cover and the radius on the door shells is a BIG mismatch and just looks odd. 2. The smaller you go with the gap, the sharper the edges become 3. Sharp edges don't take paint well, and certainly don't ' wear' well ( the paint will chip easily. 4. The !0 doors are " Flopy" and will flex and bend considerably once mounted to the close coupled hinges. Too narrow a gap will lead to wear , nicks and abrasions when opening/ closing the doors. 5. There can be considerable differences in the thickness of the paint. depending upon, Who does the spraying. Single stage versus multi, Brand of paint. etc.... My advice is to go ahead and build a good narrow gap, but before painting/flying, get your sand paper out and relieve it and the edges appropriately. By the time you're ready for paint, you will have had a LOT of time and experience putting the doors on and off again. and you'e feel comfortable based on your own experience. Trust me, I thought I'd only mount the doors once or twice, I think I quit counting about 30 x. Deems On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 2:06 PM, Geoff Combs wrote: > I would go no smaller than .06 finished. I would say .070-.080. with no > paint Only reason is that if every the door edge and the cabin top meet > > The paint will start to chip on that edge. FWIW > > > Geoff Combs > > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Shannon Hicks > *Sent:* Thursday, July 16, 2015 3:04 PM > *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Door gap size? > > > You guys have some amazing fiberglass skills. I think mine is +- .25"! > > > Shannon > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 1:55 PM, John Trollinger > wrote: > > wow, that is great, mine is not near that... > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Jeff Carpenter > wrote: > > finger nail... > > > Jeff Carpenter > > 40304 > > > On Jul 16, 2015, at 10:11 AM, digidocs wrote: > > > Hey list, > > I'm mentally preparing for the great door edge fill/sand and I'm curious > what size gap you'd recommend around the edge of the door---0.020", 0.040", > 0.060"? > > Thanks, > David > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444824#444824 > > > - The RV10-List --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > > http://www.matronics.com/co================ > > > Westcott Press > > 1121 Isabel Street > > Burbank, CA 91506 > > jeff(at)westcottpress.com > > 818-861-7300 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 17, 2015
Subject: Re: Door gap size?
From: Rick Lark <larkrv10(at)gmail.com>
Guys, I just had this conversation with my painter yesterday. The gap was discussed at length. As Deems noted, the sharp edges don't hold paint well. I made my gap quite tight and sharp, mostly 40 to 60 thou wide. The paint guys will be adjusting and breaking the edge as necessary to make the Jet Glo adhere properly. Rick #40956 Southampton, Ont On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 1:48 AM, Deems Davis wrote: > Geoff makes an excellent point that shouldn't be overlooked. There are > several techniques that you can use to get an almost 'invisible' gap > between doors and cabin. However...... > 1. The original issue arose because the radius on the cabin cover and the > radius on the door shells is a BIG mismatch and just looks odd. > 2. The smaller you go with the gap, the sharper the edges become > 3. Sharp edges don't take paint well, and certainly don't ' wear' well ( > the paint will chip easily. > 4. The !0 doors are " Flopy" and will flex and bend considerably once > mounted to the close coupled hinges. Too narrow a gap will lead to wear , > nicks and abrasions when opening/ closing the doors. > 5. There can be considerable differences in the thickness of the paint. > depending upon, Who does the spraying. Single stage versus multi, Brand of > paint. etc.... > > My advice is to go ahead and build a good narrow gap, but before > painting/flying, get your sand paper out and relieve it and the edges > appropriately. By the time you're ready for paint, you will have had a LOT > of time and experience putting the doors on and off again. and you'e feel > comfortable based on your own experience. Trust me, I thought I'd only > mount the doors once or twice, I think I quit counting about 30 x. > > Deems > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 2:06 PM, Geoff Combs < > g.combs(at)aerosportmodeling.com> wrote: > >> I would go no smaller than .06 finished. I would say .070-.080. with no >> paint Only reason is that if every the door edge and the cabin top meet >> >> The paint will start to chip on that edge. FWIW >> >> >> >> Geoff Combs >> >> >> >> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: >> owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Shannon Hicks >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 16, 2015 3:04 PM >> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com >> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Door gap size? >> >> >> >> You guys have some amazing fiberglass skills. I think mine is +- .25"! >> >> >> >> Shannon >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 1:55 PM, John Trollinger >> wrote: >> >> wow, that is great, mine is not near that... >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Jeff Carpenter >> wrote: >> >> finger nail... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jeff Carpenter >> >> 40304 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 16, 2015, at 10:11 AM, digidocs wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Hey list, >> >> I'm mentally preparing for the great door edge fill/sand and I'm curious >> what size gap you'd recommend around the edge of the door---0.020", 0.040", >> 0.060"? >> >> Thanks, >> David >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444824#444824 >> >> >> >> - The RV10-List --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >> >> http://www.matronics.com/co================ >> >> >> >> >> Westcott Press >> >> 1121 Isabel Street >> >> Burbank, CA 91506 >> >> jeff(at)westcottpress.com >> >> 818-861-7300 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 17, 2015
Subject: Re: Door gap size?
From: John Trollinger <john(at)trollingers.com>
I keep telling myself I am going to fill in my door gap, but I can't seem to stop flying it for long enough to work on it.. guess I should have done it before flying :-) On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 7:51 AM, Rick Lark wrote: > Guys, I just had this conversation with my painter yesterday. The gap was > discussed at length. As Deems noted, the sharp edges don't hold paint > well. I made my gap quite tight and sharp, mostly 40 to 60 thou wide. The > paint guys will be adjusting and breaking the edge as necessary to make the > Jet Glo adhere properly. > Rick > #40956 > Southampton, Ont > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 1:48 AM, Deems Davis wrote: > >> Geoff makes an excellent point that shouldn't be overlooked. There are >> several techniques that you can use to get an almost 'invisible' gap >> between doors and cabin. However...... >> 1. The original issue arose because the radius on the cabin cover and the >> radius on the door shells is a BIG mismatch and just looks odd. >> 2. The smaller you go with the gap, the sharper the edges become >> 3. Sharp edges don't take paint well, and certainly don't ' wear' well >> ( the paint will chip easily. >> 4. The !0 doors are " Flopy" and will flex and bend considerably once >> mounted to the close coupled hinges. Too narrow a gap will lead to wear , >> nicks and abrasions when opening/ closing the doors. >> 5. There can be considerable differences in the thickness of the paint. >> depending upon, Who does the spraying. Single stage versus multi, Brand of >> paint. etc.... >> >> My advice is to go ahead and build a good narrow gap, but before >> painting/flying, get your sand paper out and relieve it and the edges >> appropriately. By the time you're ready for paint, you will have had a LOT >> of time and experience putting the doors on and off again. and you'e feel >> comfortable based on your own experience. Trust me, I thought I'd only >> mount the doors once or twice, I think I quit counting about 30 x. >> >> Deems >> >> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 2:06 PM, Geoff Combs < >> g.combs(at)aerosportmodeling.com> wrote: >> >>> I would go no smaller than .06 finished. I would say .070-.080. with >>> no paint Only reason is that if every the door edge and the cabin top meet >>> >>> The paint will start to chip on that edge. FWIW >>> >>> >>> >>> Geoff Combs >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: >>> owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Shannon Hicks >>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 16, 2015 3:04 PM >>> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com >>> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Door gap size? >>> >>> >>> >>> You guys have some amazing fiberglass skills. I think mine is +- .25"! >>> >>> >>> >>> Shannon >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 1:55 PM, John Trollinger >>> wrote: >>> >>> wow, that is great, mine is not near that... >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Jeff Carpenter >>> wrote: >>> >>> finger nail... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeff Carpenter >>> >>> 40304 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 16, 2015, at 10:11 AM, digidocs wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hey list, >>> >>> I'm mentally preparing for the great door edge fill/sand and I'm curious >>> what size gap you'd recommend around the edge of the door---0.020", 0.040", >>> 0.060"? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> David >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444824#444824 >>> >>> >>> >>> - The RV10-List --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >>> >>> http://www.matronics.com/co================ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Westcott Press >>> >>> 1121 Isabel Street >>> >>> Burbank, CA 91506 >>> >>> jeff(at)westcottpress.com >>> >>> 818-861-7300 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: RV-10 Dinner
Date: Jul 17, 2015
With the number of folks that have provided a RSVP, it's looking like we are going to be over 100 RV-10 enthusiasts enjoying dinner on Sunday evening. Just a couple requests. If you haven't RSVP'd yet, please do so. This is the metric we use to purcha se food. I don't want to run short on food. Submitting a RSVP is the best wa y to prevent that we don't run short. Here's the link: http://www.perfectpotluck.com/meals.php?t=DSOH9787 Please bring your own seating. We can only seat so many people at the few pi cnic tables that Bob and Gary have "acquired". If you don't bring a chair, y ou will most likely have to eat standing. See you Sunday! bob Sent from my iPad ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: KOSH Request
Date: Jul 17, 2015
Another question on this line if I may... I think I would like to park in HBP along the runway 18/36 - the original area (no offense to the usual RV-10 area) . Is this possible if I arrive Saturday evening? Thanks Chris Lucas N919AR From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Condrey Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 10:39 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: KOSH Request There's even a Beech 18 sitting in Vintage and it's not up to the axles! Bob ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: Re: KOSH Request
Date: Jul 17, 2015
The only person that can answer that question is Jeff Point and I don't beli eve he's on this mailing list. I believe they park the 10s separately to give us more room for safety and m aneuverability. Sent from my iPad > On Jul 17, 2015, at 6:38 PM, Chris wrote: > > Another question on this line if I may... I think I would like to park in H BP along the runway 18/36 - the original area (no offense to the usual RV-10 area) . Is this possible if I arrive Saturday evening? > Thanks > Chris Lucas > N919AR > > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Condrey > Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 10:39 PM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: KOSH Request > > There's even a Beech 18 sitting in Vintage and it's not up to the axles! > > Bob > > > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ben" <n801bh(at)netzero.net>
Date: Jul 17, 2015
Subject: Re: KOSH Request
Maybe.... Those spots usually fill up by mid week before the show starts .. IMHO Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: KOSH Request Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 18:38:27 -0400 Another question on this line if I may... I think I would like to park i n HBP along the runway 18/36 - the original area (no offense to the usua l RV-10 area) . Is this possible if I arrive Saturday evening? Thanks Chris Lucas N919AR From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-serve r(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Condrey Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 10:39 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: KOSH Request There's even a Beech 18 sitting in Vintage and it's not up to the axles! Bob ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ========= ____________________________________________________________ NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now. http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: KOSH Request
Date: Jul 17, 2015
They put airventure cup racers and specific models there so it's nearly impo ssible for you. Tim > On Jul 17, 2015, at 6:04 PM, Ben wrote: > > Maybe.... > > Those spots usually fill up by mid week before the show starts.. IMHO > > > Ben Haas > N801BH > www.haaspowerair.com > > ---------- Original Message ---------- > From: "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com> > To: > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: KOSH Request > Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 18:38:27 -0400 > > Another question on this line if I may... I think I would like to park in H BP along the runway 18/36 - the original area (no offense to the usual RV-10 area) . Is this possible if I arrive Saturday evening? > > Thanks > > Chris Lucas > > N919AR > > > > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Condrey > Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 10:39 PM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: KOSH Request > > > > There's even a Beech 18 sitting in Vintage and it's not up to the axles! > > > > Bob > > > > > > > ========================= > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > ========================= > ronics.com > ========================= > www.matronics.com/contribution > ========================= > > ____________________________________________________________ > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now. > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Door gap size?
From: "rv10flyer" <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 17, 2015
I think mine is about .050-.060". Paint will close the gap some and you'll want some expansion room. -------- Wayne G. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444902#444902 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Dual battery isolation
From: "rv10flyer" <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 17, 2015
Mine draws 435 Amps and if I did not have two batteries, my GRT's would reboot(below 10 VDC). -------- Wayne G. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444903#444903 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 2015
Subject: Brake broke
From: David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com>
We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind then taxied pretty far to the east, riding the brake as necessary. I guess my technique needs work because I think the right one overheated. By the time we got to HBP it was mushy, then a few seconds later it went to the floor. I stopped on the taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the cement at the end of P for repairs. I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign of any loose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit really. No leaks in the cabin. And the disc looks really bad, very scored and worn. The pads still have meat but they look sort of like the edges have chipped off. Maybe from heat. I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us due to leaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again. Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions? --Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: Brake broke
Date: Jul 21, 2015
I plan on doing the matco upgrade when the time comes. Rene' 801-721-6080 From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Saylor Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2015 2:20 PM Subject: RV10-List: Brake broke We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind then taxied pretty far to the east, riding the brake as necessary. I guess my technique needs work because I think the right one overheated. By the time we got to HBP it was mushy, then a few seconds later it went to the floor. I stopped on the taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the cement at the end of P for repairs. I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign of any loose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit really. No leaks in the cabin. And the disc looks really bad, very scored and worn. The pads still have meat but they look sort of like the edges have chipped off. Maybe from heat. I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us due to leaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again. Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions? --Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Marcus Cooper <cooprv7(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Brake broke
Date: Jul 21, 2015
I=99ll offer that technique is more important than which brake company you go with. This is by no means a dig as a lot of people ride their brakes, but I find it=99s really not necessary in the RV-10. The F-16 was notorious for getting hot brakes if you rode them at all, so in academics we would show a silly comparison but it worked. Two pots of water each had a frog. On one pot the fire was extreme but quick and the frog was left unscathed. On the other the same total energy was applied over time through a low heat but the frog eventually boiled. The point is, long use of the brakes, even with light pressure, will build up much more heat than if you let the plane roll out and then apply more pressure briefly to slow back down. Another point is landing where you want at the speed you want (stall horn just starting to beep) will really help the brakes. I realize that=99s obvious but nonetheless often ignored. I=99ve also seen a lot of people jam on the brakes to make a turn for no reason. Don=99t hose the airplane landing behind you, but if the next turnoff isn=99t that far and means the difference between heavy brakes and no brakes, then another few hundred feet of taxi is worth it. FWIW I=99m on my second set of pads at 720 hours with a long way to go before they=99 ll need replacing. Again, this is not an attack by any means but I just wanted to throw in my .02 to the crowd having seen a number of these related discussions. I wish I was there at OSH, have fun! Marcus On Jul 21, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Rene wrote: I plan on doing the matco upgrade when the time comes. <> Rene' 801-721-6080 From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com ] On Behalf Of David Saylor Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2015 2:20 PM Subject: RV10-List: Brake broke We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind then taxied pretty far to the east, riding the brake as necessary. I guess my technique needs work because I think the right one overheated. By the time we got to HBP it was mushy, then a few seconds later it went to the floor. I stopped on the taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the cement at the end of P for repairs. I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign of any loose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit really. No leaks in the cabin. And the disc looks really bad, very scored and worn. The pads still have meat but they look sort of like the edges have chipped off. Maybe from heat. I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us due to leaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again. Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions? --Dave http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List> http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
Subject: Re: Brake broke
Date: Jul 21, 2015
As Coop said, it's more about technique than the brake kit, but the Matco ha s double pads and should last longer. It most likely just boiled the fluid a nd will harden back up when it cools down. I wouldn't do anything for right n ow until you verify that. If it firms up and you don't get a puddle by the b rake, then you should be good to go. When you get home you could replace pad s and maybe caliper. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. 352-427-0285 jesse(at)saintaviation.com Sent from my iPad > On Jul 21, 2015, at 3:19 PM, David Saylor wrote: > > We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind then taxi ed pretty far to the east, riding the brake as necessary. I guess my techniq ue needs work because I think the right one overheated. By the time we got t o HBP it was mushy, then a few seconds later it went to the floor. I stoppe d on the taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the cement at the end of P for repairs. > > I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign of any l oose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit really. No leaks in t he cabin. And the disc looks really bad, very scored and worn. The pads stil l have meat but they look sort of like the edges have chipped off. Maybe fro m heat. > > I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us due to l eaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again. > > Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions? > > --Dave > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Windscreen Fairing
From: tmoushon(at)gmail.com
Date: Jul 22, 2015
Missing OSH this year... Dang! Vans windscreen layup procedures for the -10 start with the narrow strip of glass and works up to the 3 1/2 wide piece. I saw the layup video Vans posted on the -14, (excellent) and they start with the widest one first and work down to the narrowest. Air pocket management comes to mind as one benefit...any other thoughts/comments? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Windscreen Fairing
From: Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Date: Jul 22, 2015
Not sure why the change ....... I think I would prefer the -10 plans method as it allows you to sand/fill/feather the edges of each layup as you start small and that leaves the last layer to gon smooth over a contoured fillet. I used flox to feather the edges of each layer which avoided the air pockets. I did my fillet layups per the plans and had no problems at all. Seems like a daunting task at first but I didn't have any problems at all. I armed myself with various sizes of PVC with heavy grit sandpaper tacked to them. Get the 3M spray contact cement (Home Depot) for photos ..... worn out sandpaper just peels off easily. Also at HD is a coarse black paint remover wheel that does real well in my angle grinder. Linn On 7/22/2015 8:43 AM, tmoushon(at)gmail.com wrote: > > Missing OSH this year... Dang! > > Vans windscreen layup procedures for the -10 start with the narrow strip of glass and works up to the 3 1/2 wide piece. I saw the layup video Vans posted on the -14, (excellent) and they start with the widest one first and work down to the narrowest. Air pocket management comes to mind as one benefit...any other thoughts/comments? > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2015
Subject: Re: Brake broke
From: David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com>
Thanks folks. Jesse, I wish I'd read your post before I pulled the caliper. I had an enlightening conversation with Robbie Grove who explained the required technique to me. Basically I learned I need to taxi kind of like s-turning a tail dragger. Drift downwind (across the taxiway) without any brakes, then just enough brake to get pointed to the other side, and repeat as necessary. The brakes cool between steers. If anyone can explain it better, please do. Today I replaced the pads and the piston oring. Bled the brakes and all seems well. Should be good for enough for a few landings to get home, where I'll replace the disc and consider my upgrade options. Even Cleveland says the brakes are undersized. EAA helped a LOT with everything I needed to make the repair. The aircraft repair barn is well stocked with tools and supplies. Again thanks for the input. --Dave On Tuesday, July 21, 2015, Jesse Saint wrote: > As Coop said, it's more about technique than the brake kit, but the Matco > has double pads and should last longer. It most likely just boiled the > fluid and will harden back up when it cools down. I wouldn't do anything > for right now until you verify that. If it firms up and you don't get a > puddle by the brake, then you should be good to go. When you get home you > could replace pads and maybe caliper. > > Jesse Saint > Saint Aviation, Inc. > 352-427-0285 > jesse(at)saintaviation.com > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jul 21, 2015, at 3:19 PM, David Saylor > wrote: > > We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind then > taxied pretty far to the east, riding the brake as necessary. I guess my > technique needs work because I think the right one overheated. By the time > we got to HBP it was mushy, then a few seconds later it went to the floor. > I stopped on the taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the > cement at the end of P for repairs. > > I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign of any > loose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit really. No leaks > in the cabin. And the disc looks really bad, very scored and worn. The pads > still have meat but they look sort of like the edges have chipped off. > Maybe from heat. > > I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us due to > leaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again. > > Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions? > > --Dave > > * > > D============================================ > List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > D============================================ > //forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com> > D============================================ > ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > D============================================ > > * > > * > > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2015
Subject: Re: Brake broke
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
I am not entirely convinced that there is anything lacking with the Clevelands. The RV-10 empty weight is virtually identical to my Mooney M20E. Approx 1645 lbs empty, 2575 gross. Uses 6:00X6 six ply tires. Vso 57 mph, Approach speed 80. Only real difference is the 10's lack of nose wheel steering. My Mooney uses similar 6" Cleveland wheels and brakes designed in the early 60s, and later versions do have improvements. I do think that using the high temp brake fluid and viton seals are the main items needed to deal with the heat build up from long cross wind taxis. Obviously with P factor the right brake will get more use than the left. On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 5:55 PM, David Saylor wrote: > Thanks folks. > > > Should be good for enough for a few landings to get home, where I'll > replace the disc and consider my upgrade options. Even Cleveland says the > brakes are undersized. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 2015
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Brake broke
Doing it the way tail draggers might do it makes sense to me but my interpretation is a bit different. Having moved from flying the Maule one day (actually 7 days/ week for a 2 months) to the '10 the next, I was all about rudder versus differential braking. For me that means constant rudder wagging. On grass it's stop to stop, on pavement it actually takes more concentration because it turns so easily with a xwind. But in both cases I try to keep it straight with minimal braking. Actual turns require braking. On the other hand, on pavement it often just rolls to fast. I never do a constant application of the brakes but tend to let the speed build then slow it way down and start over. Slow-fast-slow-fast etc. I got really long wear out of my brakes the first 3 years so by that measure it seems to work. Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson On 7/22/2015 8:55 PM, David Saylor wrote: > Thanks folks. > > Jesse, I wish I'd read your post before I pulled the caliper. > > I had an enlightening conversation with Robbie Grove who explained the > required technique to me. Basically I learned I need to taxi kind of > like s-turning a tail dragger. Drift downwind (across the > taxiway) without any brakes, then just enough brake to get pointed to > the other side, and repeat as necessary. The brakes cool between steers. > > If anyone can explain it better, please do. > > Today I replaced the pads and the piston oring. Bled the brakes and > all seems well. Should be good for enough for a few landings to get > home, where I'll replace the disc and consider my upgrade options. > Even Cleveland says the brakes are undersized. > > EAA helped a LOT with everything I needed to make the repair. The > aircraft repair barn is well stocked with tools and supplies. > > Again thanks for the input. > > --Dave > > On Tuesday, July 21, 2015, Jesse Saint > wrote: > > As Coop said, it's more about technique than the brake kit, but > the Matco has double pads and should last longer. It most likely > just boiled the fluid and will harden back up when it cools down. > I wouldn't do anything for right now until you verify that. If it > firms up and you don't get a puddle by the brake, then you should > be good to go. When you get home you could replace pads and maybe > caliper. > > Jesse Saint > Saint Aviation, Inc. > 352-427-0285 > jesse(at)saintaviation.com > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jul 21, 2015, at 3:19 PM, David Saylor > wrote: > >> We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind >> then taxied pretty far to the east, riding the brake as >> necessary. I guess my technique needs work because I think the >> right one overheated. By the time we got to HBP it was mushy, >> then a few seconds later it went to the floor. I stopped on the >> taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the cement at >> the end of P for repairs. >> >> I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign >> of any loose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit >> really. No leaks in the cabin. And the disc looks really bad, >> very scored and worn. The pads still have meat but they look sort >> of like the edges have chipped off. Maybe from heat. >> >> I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us >> due to leaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again. >> >> Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions? >> >> --Dave >> * >> >> D============================================ >> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> D============================================ >> //forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com> >> D============================================ >> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> D============================================ >> >> * > > * > > get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > > * > > > * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com>
Subject: Declared Emergency
Date: Jul 23, 2015
Do tell Bill... Jeff Carpenter 40304 On Jul 23, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > Doing it the way tail draggers might do it makes sense to me but my interpretation is a bit different. > > Having moved from flying the Maule one day (actually 7 days/ week for a 2 months) to the '10 the next, I was all about rudder versus differential braking. For me that means constant rudder wagging. On grass it's stop to stop, on pavement it actually takes more concentration because it turns so easily with a xwind. But in both cases I try to keep it straight with minimal braking. Actual turns require braking. > > On the other hand, on pavement it often just rolls to fast. I never do a constant application of the brakes but tend to let the speed build then slow it way down and start over. Slow-fast-slow-fast etc. > > I got really long wear out of my brakes the first 3 years so by that measure it seems to work. > > Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson > > On 7/22/2015 8:55 PM, David Saylor wrote: >> Thanks folks. >> >> Jesse, I wish I'd read your post before I pulled the caliper. >> >> I had an enlightening conversation with Robbie Grove who explained the required technique to me. Basically I learned I need to taxi kind of like s-turning a tail dragger. Drift downwind (across the taxiway) without any brakes, then just enough brake to get pointed to the other side, and repeat as necessary. The brakes cool between steers. >> >> If anyone can explain it better, please do. >> >> Today I replaced the pads and the piston oring. Bled the brakes and all seems well. Should be good for enough for a few landings to get home, where I'll replace the disc and consider my upgrade options. Even Cleveland says the brakes are undersized. >> >> EAA helped a LOT with everything I needed to make the repair. The aircraft repair barn is well stocked with tools and supplies. >> >> Again thanks for the input. >> >> --Dave >> >> On Tuesday, July 21, 2015, Jesse Saint wrote: >> As Coop said, it's more about technique than the brake kit, but the Matco has double pads and should last longer. It most likely just boiled the fluid and will harden back up when it cools down. I wouldn't do anything for right now until you verify that. If it firms up and you don't get a puddle by the brake, then you should be good to go. When you get home you could replace pads and maybe caliper. >> >> Jesse Saint >> Saint Aviation, Inc. >> 352-427-0285 >> jesse(at)saintaviation.com >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jul 21, 2015, at 3:19 PM, David Saylor wrote: >> >>> We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind then taxied pretty far to the east, riding the brake as necessary. I guess my technique needs work because I think the right one overheated. By the time we got to HBP it was mushy, then a few seconds later it went to the floor. I stopped on the taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the cement at the end of P for repairs. >>> >>> I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign of any loose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit really. No leaks in the cabin. And the disc looks really bad, very scored and worn. The pads still have meat but they look sort of like the edges have chipped off. Maybe from heat. >>> >>> I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us due to leaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again. >>> >>> Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions? >>> >>> --Dave >>> >>> >>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D >>> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D >>> //forums.matronics.com >>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D >>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D >>> >> >> >> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Date: 07/19/15 >> > > > > Westcott Press 1121 Isabel Street Burbank, CA 91506 jeff(at)westcottpress.com 818-861-7300 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 2015
Subject: Re: Brake broke
From: "Berck E. Nash" <flyboy(at)gmail.com>
I don't have any real time in an RV-10, but I have taxied one briefly, and it taxies very similar to other castering nosewheel aircraft I've flown. After teaching a few hundred air force cadets to fly a DA-20, I can state that most people naturally do it wrong. It's very tempting to control the direction of the airplane exclusively with the brakes, but in most cases you should not need the brakes when taxiing in a straight line. The rudder has more authority than you think it does, but you need to be quick on your feet, and not hesitate to use full rudder. The best way to save your brakes is to make sure you're never touching the brakes to turn unless you already have the rudder to the stop in that direction. I find that keeping the plane straight requires frequent, large applications of rudder applied as soon as the aircraft heads the wrong direction, but can be done in most conditions without any use of the brakes. If you find that you need to drag the brakes in order to taxi in a straight line, I suspect that you're not using all the rudder available. Note that you'll also get more rudder authority if you're positioning the ailerons correctly for wind direction. Now, in a 20 knot xwind, you probably need brakes, but 10 knots should be no big deal. If you do need brakes, do not drag them. Light, continuous brake actuation creates a lot more heat than brief, moderate application. If you need to drag the brakes, don't. Hold full rudder in the direction you need, and tap the brakes moderately and briefly as necessary to point the plane back downwind, let it weathervane back (while still holding full rudder), then tap it again to overcorrect back toward center and repeat. Note that I have no experience about what's necessary on grass, but I wouldn't think it would be much different. Hope this helps, Berck On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Bill Watson wrote: > Doing it the way tail draggers might do it makes sense to me but my > interpretation is a bit different. > > Having moved from flying the Maule one day (actually 7 days/ week for a 2 > months) to the '10 the next, I was all about rudder versus differential > braking. For me that means constant rudder wagging. On grass it's stop to > stop, on pavement it actually takes more concentration because it turns so > easily with a xwind. But in both cases I try to keep it straight with > minimal braking. Actual turns require braking. > > On the other hand, on pavement it often just rolls to fast. I never do a > constant application of the brakes but tend to let the speed build then > slow it way down and start over. Slow-fast-slow-fast etc. > > I got really long wear out of my brakes the first 3 years so by that > measure it seems to work. > > Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson > > > On 7/22/2015 8:55 PM, David Saylor wrote: > > Thanks folks. > > Jesse, I wish I'd read your post before I pulled the caliper. > > I had an enlightening conversation with Robbie Grove who explained the > required technique to me. Basically I learned I need to taxi kind of like > s-turning a tail dragger. Drift downwind (across the taxiway) without any > brakes, then just enough brake to get pointed to the other side, and repeat > as necessary. The brakes cool between steers. > > If anyone can explain it better, please do. > > Today I replaced the pads and the piston oring. Bled the brakes and all > seems well. Should be good for enough for a few landings to get home, where > I'll replace the disc and consider my upgrade options. Even Cleveland says > the brakes are undersized. > > EAA helped a LOT with everything I needed to make the repair. The > aircraft repair barn is well stocked with tools and supplies. > > Again thanks for the input. > > --Dave > > On Tuesday, July 21, 2015, Jesse Saint wrote: > >> As Coop said, it's more about technique than the brake kit, but the >> Matco has double pads and should last longer. It most likely just boiled >> the fluid and will harden back up when it cools down. I wouldn't do >> anything for right now until you verify that. If it firms up and you don't >> get a puddle by the brake, then you should be good to go. When you get home >> you could replace pads and maybe caliper. >> >> Jesse Saint >> Saint Aviation, Inc. >> 352-427-0285 >> jesse(at)saintaviation.com >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jul 21, 2015, at 3:19 PM, David Saylor wrote: >> >> We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind then >> taxied pretty far to the east, riding the brake as necessary. I guess my >> technique needs work because I think the right one overheated. By the time >> we got to HBP it was mushy, then a few seconds later it went to the floor. >> I stopped on the taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the >> cement at the end of P for repairs. >> >> I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign of >> any loose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit really. No >> leaks in the cabin. And the disc looks really bad, very scored and worn. >> The pads still have meat but they look sort of like the edges have >> chipped off. Maybe from heat. >> >> I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us due >> to leaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again. >> >> Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions? >> >> --Dave >> >> * >> >> D============================================ >> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> D============================================ >> //forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com> >> D============================================ >> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> D============================================ >> >> * >> >> * >> >> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com> >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> * >> >> > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Date: 07/19/15 > > > * > > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 2015
Subject: Brake broke
From: David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com>
Bill and Berck, thank you, your descriptions are what I'm hearing elsewhere too. It's funny how a specific situation can be so rare ( for me) and also so common. I'm approaching 1000 hours in the 10 but the long xwind taxi just never came up. Can't wait to try it again. And Bill, you know you can't just leave it at that... --Dave On Thursday, July 23, 2015, Bill Watson > wrote: > Doing it the way tail draggers might do it makes sense to me but my > interpretation is a bit different. > > Having moved from flying the Maule one day (actually 7 days/ week for a 2 > months) to the '10 the next, I was all about rudder versus differential > braking. For me that means constant rudder wagging. On grass it's stop to > stop, on pavement it actually takes more concentration because it turns so > easily with a xwind. But in both cases I try to keep it straight with > minimal braking. Actual turns require braking. > > On the other hand, on pavement it often just rolls to fast. I never do a > constant application of the brakes but tend to let the speed build then > slow it way down and start over. Slow-fast-slow-fast etc. > > I got really long wear out of my brakes the first 3 years so by that > measure it seems to work. > > Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson > > On 7/22/2015 8:55 PM, David Saylor wrote: > > Thanks folks. > > Jesse, I wish I'd read your post before I pulled the caliper. > > I had an enlightening conversation with Robbie Grove who explained the > required technique to me. Basically I learned I need to taxi kind of like > s-turning a tail dragger. Drift downwind (across the taxiway) without any > brakes, then just enough brake to get pointed to the other side, and repeat > as necessary. The brakes cool between steers. > > If anyone can explain it better, please do. > > Today I replaced the pads and the piston oring. Bled the brakes and all > seems well. Should be good for enough for a few landings to get home, where > I'll replace the disc and consider my upgrade options. Even Cleveland says > the brakes are undersized. > > EAA helped a LOT with everything I needed to make the repair. The > aircraft repair barn is well stocked with tools and supplies. > > Again thanks for the input. > > --Dave > > On Tuesday, July 21, 2015, Jesse Saint wrote: > >> As Coop said, it's more about technique than the brake kit, but the >> Matco has double pads and should last longer. It most likely just boiled >> the fluid and will harden back up when it cools down. I wouldn't do >> anything for right now until you verify that. If it firms up and you don't >> get a puddle by the brake, then you should be good to go. When you get home >> you could replace pads and maybe caliper. >> >> Jesse Saint >> Saint Aviation, Inc. >> 352-427-0285 >> jesse(at)saintaviation.com >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jul 21, 2015, at 3:19 PM, David Saylor wrote: >> >> We landed at OSH around noon. We landed 27 in a strong crosswind then >> taxied pretty far to the east, riding the brake as necessary. I guess my >> technique needs work because I think the right one overheated. By the time >> we got to HBP it was mushy, then a few seconds later it went to the floor. >> I stopped on the taxiway with the other brake. EAA tied us down on the >> cement at the end of P for repairs. >> >> I pulled the wheel pant and peeked under the cowl. The only sign of >> any loose fluid is out the top of the reservoir--quite a bit really. No >> leaks in the cabin. And the disc looks really bad, very scored and worn. >> The pads still have meat but they look sort of like the edges have >> chipped off. Maybe from heat. >> >> I replaced the right caliper a few years ago after it stranded us due >> to leaking. A new oring didn't help. Same brake again. >> >> Now I'm considering something other than Cleveland. Any suggestions? >> >> --Dave >> >> * >> >> D============================================ >> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> D============================================ >> //forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com> >> D============================================ >> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> D============================================ >> >> * >> >> * >> >> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com> >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> * >> >> > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Date: 07/19/15 > > > * > > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 2015
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
Yes, so today I had what I think was my first in-flight problem with my '10 and it resulted in a declared emergency and precautionary landing. No big deal but an interesting experience. Flying home this morning from Pittsburgh to Durham NC, we had entered IMC conditions as we approached a wad of early morning cells. I requested a climb and a deviation in an effort to find VMC before getting too close to the cells. In the ever continuing effort to maintain hand flying skills with an extremely capable 2 axis autopilot, I decided to hand fly the plane and enjoy the challenge of flying to standard in light convective chop. Flightaware Information <http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N215TG/history/20150723/1215Z/KAGC/KLYH#> At one point I decided to let Tiger fly it for awhile so I could figure out my next move. Tiger immediately began a diving turn so I switched him off and resumed hand flying. Figuring that I had missed one of the buttons during my transition, I did another Direct-to and made sure I was exactly on altitude before giving it back to Tiger. Tiger performed another diving altitude excursion. Both excursions exceeded 200' but they were not called out by ATC (nor are they visible in the Flightaware track). It took a minute or two to figure out what the problem was; I had lost an accurate airspeed indication. This is not a particularly big problem other then it rendered my autopilot unusable (I have not yet explored whether or how my Trutrak unit could have been used in some degraded mode without a good airspeed indication). I told ATC that I had a problem with my airspeed indicator and I requested vectors and a descent to VMC and a landing. I was given a turn and a descent by the controller and was asked whether I was declaring an emergency. I said "yes". Very quickly a more sure voiced controller took over and directed me to lovely Lynchburg Regional. I broke out into hazy VMC at 5,000' over familiar territory. I fly over Lynchburg on many trips but hoped to never have to land there. During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my GRT EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving erroneous readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of the dual AHRS connection, problem determination should be simple and is likely water. I'll let you all know what I find. Some thoughts: * I'm lucky and glad that the failure occurred while hand flying. If Tiger had been flying, it could have been much more confusing. Having said that, Tiger does 99% of my flying. * Declaring an emergency, even if done reluctantly, clears the mind along with the airspace. Loss of airspeed in IMC is no big deal but once detected, it's nice to be able to focus on flying the plane without other distractions (once you answer the standard 'souls on board' and 'fuel' questions) * I recall a few discussions regarding the '10's mechanical stall warning system. Mine is in place and operational. It was a comfort knowing it was there as a backstop during my approach and landing. I'm glad I put it in. * Darn the '10 is a sweet plane!! That's it so far. Need to go fill out an ASRS report. > Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ben" <n801bh(at)netzero.net>
Date: Jul 23, 2015
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
Good job buddy....... Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Declared Emergency Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 19:36:18 -0400 Yes, so today I had what I think was my first in-flight problem with my '10 and it resulted in a declared emergency and precautionary landing. No big deal but an interesting experience. Flying home this morning from Pittsburgh to Durham NC, we had entered I MC conditions as we approached a wad of early morning cells. I requeste d a climb and a deviation in an effort to find VMC before getting too c lose to the cells. In the ever continuing effort to maintain hand flyi ng skills with an extremely capable 2 axis autopilot, I decided to hand fly the plane and enjoy the challenge of flying to standard in light con vective chop. Flightaware Information At one point I decided to let Tiger fly it for awhile so I could figure out my next move. Tiger immediately began a diving turn so I switched him off and resumed hand flying. Figuring that I had missed one of the b uttons during my transition, I did another Direct-to and made sure I was exactly on altitude before giving it back to Tiger. Tiger performed an other diving altitude excursion. Both excursions exceeded 200' but they were not called out by ATC (nor are they visible in the Flightaware track). It took a minute or two to figure out what the problem was; I had lost an accurate airspeed indica tion. This is not a particularly big problem other then it rendered my autopi lot unusable (I have not yet explored whether or how my Trutrak unit cou ld have been used in some degraded mode without a good airspeed indicati on). I told ATC that I had a problem with my airspeed indicator and I reques ted vectors and a descent to VMC and a landing. I was given a turn and a descent by the controller and was asked whether I was declaring an eme rgency. I said "yes". Very quickly a more sure voiced controller took over and directed me to lovely Lynchburg Regional. I broke out into haz y VMC at 5,000' over familiar territory. I fly over Lynchburg on many t rips but hoped to never have to land there. During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my GRT EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving er roneous readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of the dual AHRS connection, problem determination should be simple and is like ly water. I'll let you all know what I find. Some thoughts: I'm lucky and glad that the failure occurred while hand flying. If Tige r had been flying, it could have been much more confusing. Having said that, Tiger does 99% of my flying. Declaring an emergency, even if done reluctantly, clears the mind along with the airspace. Loss of airspeed in IMC is no big deal but once det ected, it's nice to be able to focus on flying the plane without other d istractions (once you answer the standard 'souls on board' and 'fuel' qu estions) I recall a few discussions regarding the '10's mechanical stall warning system. Mine is in place and operational. It was a comfort knowing it was there as a backstop during my approach and landing. I'm glad I put it in. Darn the '10 is a sweet plane!! That's it so far. Need to go fill out an ASRS report.Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======= ____________________________________________________________ Old School Yearbook Pics View Class Yearbooks Online Free. Search by School & Year. Look Now! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/55b17f9033dce7f90470bst01duc ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
Date: Jul 23, 2015
This brings up a great point and an excellent technique. During flight testi ng or at any point, it is a good idea to establish and have known pitch and p ower settings for different configurations and phases of flight. For instanc e, if you know that 2400 RPM, 18" of manifold pressure and 2 degrees nose hi gh will give you 100 kts with flaps up, and that a notch of flaps, 15" manif old pressure and 1 degree nose low will give you a 600 fpm descent rate at 1 00 kts, you have an target to shoot for and it can help to keep you alive du ring these kinds of emergencies (no airspeed indication) where you can not r e-enter vmc flight. The Air Force, the Navy, civilian King Air medevac companies, and even my cu rrent job flying 747s all taught this concept of flying. Know your pitch and power settings and watch how easy flying becomes. Justin > On Jul 23, 2015, at 19:36, Bill Watson wrote: > > Yes, so today I had what I think was my first in-flight problem with my '1 0 and it resulted in a declared emergency and precautionary landing. No big deal but an interesting experience. > > Flying home this morning from Pittsburgh to Durham NC, we had entered IMC c onditions as we approached a wad of early morning cells. I requested a clim b and a deviation in an effort to find VMC before getting too close to the c ells. In the ever continuing effort to maintain hand flying skills with an extremely capable 2 axis autopilot, I decided to hand fly the plane and enj oy the challenge of flying to standard in light convective chop. > Flightaware Information > > At one point I decided to let Tiger fly it for awhile so I could figure ou t my next move. Tiger immediately began a diving turn so I switched him off and resumed hand flying. Figuring that I had missed one of the buttons duri ng my transition, I did another Direct-to and made sure I was exactly on alt itude before giving it back to Tiger. Tiger performed another diving altitu de excursion. > > Both excursions exceeded 200' but they were not called out by ATC (nor ar e they visible in the Flightaware track). It took a minute or two to figure out what the problem was; I had lost an accurate airspeed indication. > > This is not a particularly big problem other then it rendered my autopilot unusable (I have not yet explored whether or how my Trutrak unit could have been used in some degraded mode without a good airspeed indication). > > I told ATC that I had a problem with my airspeed indicator and I requested vectors and a descent to VMC and a landing. I was given a turn and a desce nt by the controller and was asked whether I was declaring an emergency. I s aid "yes". Very quickly a more sure voiced controller took over and directe d me to lovely Lynchburg Regional. I broke out into hazy VMC at 5,000' over familiar territory. I fly over Lynchburg on many trips but hoped to never h ave to land there. > > During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my GRT EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving erroneous readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of the dual AHRS c onnection, problem determination should be simple and is likely water. I'll let you all know what I find. > > Some thoughts: > I'm lucky and glad that the failure occurred while hand flying. If Tiger h ad been flying, it could have been much more confusing. Having said that, T iger does 99% of my flying. > Declaring an emergency, even if done reluctantly, clears the mind along wi th the airspace. Loss of airspeed in IMC is no big deal but once detected, it's nice to be able to focus on flying the plane without other distraction s (once you answer the standard 'souls on board' and 'fuel' questions) > I recall a few discussions regarding the '10's mechanical stall warning sy stem. Mine is in place and operational. It was a comfort knowing it was th ere as a backstop during my approach and landing. I'm glad I put it in. > Darn the '10 is a sweet plane!! > That's it so far. Need to go fill out an ASRS report. >> Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
Subject: Re: Brake broke
Date: Jul 23, 2015
"The rudder has more authority than you think it does, but you need to be quick on your feet, and not hesitate to use full rudder. The best way to save your brakes is to make sure you're never touching the brakes to turn unless you already have the rudder to the stop in that direction." Exactly. Heals on the floor, full rudder deflection, a little bit of toe pressure as needed. No more than 1,000 rpm on hard surface for taxi. Pump brakes to slow down or stop. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. 352-427-0285 jesse(at)saintaviation.com Sent from my iPad > On Jul 23, 2015, at 3:41 PM, Berck E. Nash wrote: > > The rudder has more authority than you think it does, but you need to be quick on your feet, and not hesitate to use full rudder. The best way to save your brakes is to make sure you're never touching the brakes to turn unless you already have the rudder to the stop in that direction. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Philips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com>
Subject: Declared Emergency
Date: Jul 23, 2015
Very interesting. Do you by chance have ForeFlight on your i-Pad with a Stratus 2s? One reason I bought that setup was to give me a set of backup instruments in case everything else went south (the Stratus 2s has a built in AHRS). Of course it would be referencing the GPS and reading groundspeed, not airspeed, but it should be close. I've always found the folks at KLYH Tower to be friendly and courteous. Glad they could help you. Jack Phillips #40610 - Fuselage and finally getting back to work on my RV-10 after a 3-year hiatus From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 7:36 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Declared Emergency Yes, so today I had what I think was my first in-flight problem with my '10 and it resulted in a declared emergency and precautionary landing. No big deal but an interesting experience. Flying home this morning from Pittsburgh to Durham NC, we had entered IMC conditions as we approached a wad of early morning cells. I requested a climb and a deviation in an effort to find VMC before getting too close to the cells. In the ever continuing effort to maintain hand flying skills with an extremely capable 2 axis autopilot, I decided to hand fly the plane and enjoy the challenge of flying to standard in light convective chop. Flightaware Information <http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N215TG/history/20150723/1215Z/KAGC/KLYH> At one point I decided to let Tiger fly it for awhile so I could figure out my next move. Tiger immediately began a diving turn so I switched him off and resumed hand flying. Figuring that I had missed one of the buttons during my transition, I did another Direct-to and made sure I was exactly on altitude before giving it back to Tiger. Tiger performed another diving altitude excursion. Both excursions exceeded 200' but they were not called out by ATC (nor are they visible in the Flightaware track). It took a minute or two to figure out what the problem was; I had lost an accurate airspeed indication. This is not a particularly big problem other then it rendered my autopilot unusable (I have not yet explored whether or how my Trutrak unit could have been used in some degraded mode without a good airspeed indication). I told ATC that I had a problem with my airspeed indicator and I requested vectors and a descent to VMC and a landing. I was given a turn and a descent by the controller and was asked whether I was declaring an emergency. I said "yes". Very quickly a more sure voiced controller took over and directed me to lovely Lynchburg Regional. I broke out into hazy VMC at 5,000' over familiar territory. I fly over Lynchburg on many trips but hoped to never have to land there. During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my GRT EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving erroneous readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of the dual AHRS connection, problem determination should be simple and is likely water. I'll let you all know what I find. Some thoughts: * I'm lucky and glad that the failure occurred while hand flying. If Tiger had been flying, it could have been much more confusing. Having said that, Tiger does 99% of my flying. * Declaring an emergency, even if done reluctantly, clears the mind along with the airspace. Loss of airspeed in IMC is no big deal but once detected, it's nice to be able to focus on flying the plane without other distractions (once you answer the standard 'souls on board' and 'fuel' questions) * I recall a few discussions regarding the '10's mechanical stall warning system. Mine is in place and operational. It was a comfort knowing it was there as a backstop during my approach and landing. I'm glad I put it in. * Darn the '10 is a sweet plane!! That's it so far. Need to go fill out an ASRS report. Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 2015
From: "Berck E. Nash" <flyboy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
On 07/23/2015 05:36 PM, Bill Watson wrote: > During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my > GRT EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving > erroneous readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of > the dual AHRS connection, problem determination should be simple and is > likely water. I'll let you all know what I find. First, kudos on analyzing the situation, taking appropriate action and getting the aircraft back on the ground in one piece. An incorrect airspeed indication in IMC has killed lots of folks. (Air France 407...) Excellent job not becoming the most recent; I hope if I ever find myself in the same situation I perform as well as you did. Now for some questions... I assume they also share a static line? I'm a little confused about why the autopilot would use airspeed to hold altitude? I, admittedly, know nothing about how autopilots work, but it seems like if I were programming an autopilot I'd have it track a pressure a altitude to hold an altitude. I have flown a plane with a blocked static line... (Instrument instructor stuck tape over the single static port without telling me.) It was a good experience. First thing I noticed was not the sluggish altimeter on climbout, but rather the decreasing airspeed indication while maintaining a pitch attitude and power setting in a 172 that should have resulted in a climb. I eventually deduced pitot/static system failure, switched to alternate static source, and there was no change. The failure of the alternate static source to fix the problem was never adequately explained to me, and surprised the hell out of my instructor. After I leveled off, the static system leaked to the right altitude and all appeared normal until I tried to descend, at which point the airspeed indicator quickly read about 100 knots fast. I landed by taking off my foggles and looking outside the airplane using pitch/power and erring on the side of landing fast on a long runway. Had it been IMC, I don't know how well it would have gone. Anyway, I mention all this to say... are you sure it isn't a static line with partial blockage? Berck ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 2015
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
From: David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com>
Bill, I'm happy for your happy ending. Good job flying the airplane. I've seen one RV with a soggy pitot. It behaved as you described. Always looKing forward to more of your sigs, --Dave On Thursday, July 23, 2015, Bill Watson wrote: > Yes, so today I had what I think was my first in-flight problem with my > '10 and it resulted in a declared emergency and precautionary landing. No > big deal but an interesting experience. > > Flying home this morning from Pittsburgh to Durham NC, we had entered IMC > conditions as we approached a wad of early morning cells. I requested a > climb and a deviation in an effort to find VMC before getting too close to > the cells. In the ever continuing effort to maintain hand flying skills > with an extremely capable 2 axis autopilot, I decided to hand fly the plane > and enjoy the challenge of flying to standard in light convective chop. > Flightaware Information > <http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N215TG/history/20150723/1215Z/KAGC/KLYH#> > > At one point I decided to let Tiger fly it for awhile so I could figure > out my next move. Tiger immediately began a diving turn so I switched him > off and resumed hand flying. Figuring that I had missed one of the buttons > during my transition, I did another Direct-to and made sure I was exactly > on altitude before giving it back to Tiger. Tiger performed another diving > altitude excursion. > > Both excursions exceeded 200' but they were not called out by ATC (nor > are they visible in the Flightaware track). It took a minute or two to > figure out what the problem was; I had lost an accurate airspeed indication. > > This is not a particularly big problem other then it rendered my autopilot > unusable (I have not yet explored whether or how my Trutrak unit could have > been used in some degraded mode without a good airspeed indication). > > I told ATC that I had a problem with my airspeed indicator and I requested > vectors and a descent to VMC and a landing. I was given a turn and a > descent by the controller and was asked whether I was declaring an > emergency. I said "yes". Very quickly a more sure voiced controller took > over and directed me to lovely Lynchburg Regional. I broke out into hazy > VMC at 5,000' over familiar territory. I fly over Lynchburg on many trips > but hoped to never have to land there. > > During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my GRT > EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving erroneous > readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of the dual AHRS > connection, problem determination should be simple and is likely water. > I'll let you all know what I find. > > Some thoughts: > > - I'm lucky and glad that the failure occurred while hand flying. If > Tiger had been flying, it could have been much more confusing. Having said > that, Tiger does 99% of my flying. > - Declaring an emergency, even if done reluctantly, clears the mind > along with the airspace. Loss of airspeed in IMC is no big deal but once > detected, it's nice to be able to focus on flying the plane without other > distractions (once you answer the standard 'souls on board' and 'fuel' > questions) > - I recall a few discussions regarding the '10's mechanical stall > warning system. Mine is in place and operational. It was a comfort > knowing it was there as a backstop during my approach and landing. I'm > glad I put it in. > - Darn the '10 is a sweet plane!! > > That's it so far. Need to go fill out an ASRS report. > > Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson > > > * > > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2015
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
Good questions here. First, my backup ASI (small round gauge UMA unit in MPH vs Knots) does not share the static line. I simply left it open to cabin air and did it on purpose. I still have the air valve I was going to install to enable switching it between static system and cabin air. Thought about it and just seemed like adding complexity so I left the valve on the shelf and left the static port unattached. If the static line ices up, no need to break the glass or anything because the UMA is already on cabin air. So, the only thing my GRT AHRS and backup ASI share is the pitot line. Sounds like water... Re the AP, I'm going back to read my Trutrak manual to once again try to grok it's workings but what I saw momentarily was an "AS" appear on the AP screen which I think means it saw too low airspeed, 'thought' the plane was stalling and therefore commanded a pitch down. In any case this is the kind of incident that will make me a bit more knowledgeable about my AP's operation. I also have a Trutrak ADI which also flashed an "AS". I wasn't really paying attention to it but recall that it indicated the same thing momentarily on a recent flight. Perhaps a first responder of sorts. On 7/23/2015 10:51 PM, Berck E. Nash wrote: > > On 07/23/2015 05:36 PM, Bill Watson wrote: >> During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my >> GRT EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving >> erroneous readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of >> the dual AHRS connection, problem determination should be simple and is >> likely water. I'll let you all know what I find. > I assume they also share a static line? I'm a little confused about why > the autopilot would use airspeed to hold altitude? I, admittedly, know > nothing about how autopilots work, but it seems like if I were > programming an autopilot I'd have it track a pressure a altitude to hold > an altitude. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2015
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
From: Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com>
It would very interesting to talk to the EFIS folks and see if they do any kind of validating the Pitot system against GPS (and call / flag any significant deviation of the two). Jim C On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 9:14 PM, Jack Philips wrote: > Very interesting. Do you by chance have ForeFlight on your i-Pad with a > Stratus 2s? One reason I bought that setup was to give me a set of backu p > instruments in case everything else went south (the Stratus 2s has a buil t > in AHRS). Of course it would be referencing the GPS and reading > groundspeed, not airspeed, but it should be close. > > > I=99ve always found the folks at KLYH Tower to be friendly and cour teous. > Glad they could help you. > > > Jack Phillips > > #40610 =93 Fuselage and finally getting back to work on my RV-10 af ter a > 3-year hiatus > > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Watson > *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2015 7:36 PM > *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Declared Emergency > > > Yes, so today I had what I think was my first in-flight problem with my > '10 and it resulted in a declared emergency and precautionary landing. N o > big deal but an interesting experience. > > Flying home this morning from Pittsburgh to Durham NC, we had entered IMC > conditions as we approached a wad of early morning cells. I requested a > climb and a deviation in an effort to find VMC before getting too close to > the cells. In the ever continuing effort to maintain hand flying skills > with an extremely capable 2 axis autopilot, I decided to hand fly the pla ne > and enjoy the challenge of flying to standard in light convective chop. > Flightaware Information > <http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N215TG/history/20150723/1215Z/KAGC/KL YH> > > At one point I decided to let Tiger fly it for awhile so I could figure > out my next move. Tiger immediately began a diving turn so I switched hi m > off and resumed hand flying. Figuring that I had missed one of the button s > during my transition, I did another Direct-to and made sure I was exactly > on altitude before giving it back to Tiger. Tiger performed another divi ng > altitude excursion. > > Both excursions exceeded 200' but they were not called out by ATC (nor > are they visible in the Flightaware track). It took a minute or two to > figure out what the problem was; I had lost an accurate airspeed indicati on. > > This is not a particularly big problem other then it rendered my autopilo t > unusable (I have not yet explored whether or how my Trutrak unit could ha ve > been used in some degraded mode without a good airspeed indication). > > I told ATC that I had a problem with my airspeed indicator and I requeste d > vectors and a descent to VMC and a landing. I was given a turn and a > descent by the controller and was asked whether I was declaring an > emergency. I said "yes". Very quickly a more sure voiced controller too k > over and directed me to lovely Lynchburg Regional. I broke out into hazy > VMC at 5,000' over familiar territory. I fly over Lynchburg on many trip s > but hoped to never have to land there. > > During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my GR T > EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving erroneo us > readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of the dual AHRS > connection, problem determination should be simple and is likely water. > I'll let you all know what I find. > > Some thoughts: > > - I'm lucky and glad that the failure occurred while hand flying. If > Tiger had been flying, it could have been much more confusing. Having said > that, Tiger does 99% of my flying. > - Declaring an emergency, even if done reluctantly, clears the mind > along with the airspace. Loss of airspeed in IMC is no big deal but once > detected, it's nice to be able to focus on flying the plane without ot her > distractions (once you answer the standard 'souls on board' and 'fuel' > questions) > - I recall a few discussions regarding the '10's mechanical stall > warning system. Mine is in place and operational. It was a comfort > knowing it was there as a backstop during my approach and landing. I' m > glad I put it in. > - Darn the '10 is a sweet plane!! > > That's it so far. Need to go fill out an ASRS report. > > Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson > > > http://www.matronic================= < http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List> > > http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web generous > nbsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/c > > > <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> > > * > =========== onics.com/Navigator?RV10-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2015
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
On 7/23/2015 8:09 PM, Justin Jones wrote: > This brings up a great point and an excellent technique. During flight > testing or at any point, it is a good idea to establish and have known > pitch and power settings for different configurations and phases of > flight. For instance, if you know that 2400 RPM, 18" of manifold > pressure and 2 degrees nose high will give you 100 kts with flaps up, > and that a notch of flaps, 15" manifold pressure and 1 degree nose low > will give you a 600 fpm descent rate at 100 kts, you have an target to > shoot for and it can help to keep you alive during these kinds of > emergencies (no airspeed indication) where you can not re-enter vmc > flight. > > The Air Force, the Navy, civilian King Air medevac companies, and even > my current job flying 747s all taught this concept of flying. Know > your pitch and power settings and watch how easy flying becomes. > Absolutely true! I had all this worked out and memorized on my old Maule, though it is a much simpler set of things to remember (RPM, pitch, don't worry about flaps until visual or on the ground). Despite repeated efforts to establish such a set of numbers for my '10 in various flight configurations, write them down for reference during flight, memorize them, and use them for instrument approach work....shhhhh.... I don't know them or use them,/**/ sacr/ bleu!/! (Of course I have some standard settings for climb and cruise at various altitudes memorized but that's easy) This information is invaluable in a round gauge panel. Lacking a view outside it greatly simplifies keeping things upright and on track. With a syn-vision EFIS equiped with a flight director, flight path marker, RNAV approaches and all the usual artificial horizon, lubber lines, Nav and GPS indicators, I just haven't memorized the RPM/MP/flap/pitch combinations needed. I do have a set of per cent power settings memorized (an amalgam of RPM & MP) that will give me level flight and glide slope flight at my standard airspeeds. If I need to slow it all down for a non-precision approach into a smallish field I add about 10% power for flaps on the final segment. Otherwise the gear is always down, my AP is usually working and once on a precision approach segment all I have to do is aim the FPM at the next lollipop and keep the engine loud (btw, the Flight Director works as well as the FPM, and both together is better than VMC). If for ANY reason my stall warning buzzer goes off - pitch down and power up and figure out what the freak happened. That's never happened except in the flare. Of course this makes and keeps me an amateur because pros train more rigorously and fly more challenging aircraft. Postscript: Had an interesting conversation with a pro while debriefing myself in the KLYH lounge. He was flying a turbo Cirrus for a group of owners/business people who were casually trying to learn to fly while flying around doing real estate deals or something. We started feeling each other out. He said people have told him the '10 resembles a Cirrus, I said the Cirrus is a very capable plane. He agreed that it better be at $800k though it lacked a second fan and turbines but it did have a BRS. I agreed and boasted of my <$<200k non-turbo, non-BRS Cirrus-like homebuilt, it's sweet! I asked him if he would use the BRS. He said yes and I replied I'm not sure I would. We both knew that stats indicated that using it and using it promptly when it can be effective will save lives, so eventually we both agreed that we would use it. Then I started to spin my very recent experience into a Cirrus version of it where the AP is engaged and one is droning along in some bumpy soup. Suddenly it pitches down along with some warning indications. The pilot finds he is approaching an unusual attitude with the AP taking him there. With a bit of adrenaline surging, he first fights the AP, then disengages, then fights the trim as the unusual attitude training hopefully kicks in. Since he has remained current for the past few years, he hasn't had an IPC recently and recurrent training has not been done. So he's a little rusty on the recovery and finds himself a bit confused and remains in something other than straight and level flight; do you pull the BRS or continue to recover? Oh, by the way he was at 7k over the 4-5k ridges of the Appalachians so there's that. And by the way, something like that just happened to me... and that's why the fire truck was out. Both of us would have a hard time pulling it. He because he flies a lot of turbine equipment and gets regular recurrent training with lots of failure simulations and unusual attitude practice. Me because I just 'know' I could recover. I believe the Cirrus people train you to pull it in that circumstance. Interesting on many fronts. Bill "welcoming the excuse to up my game" Watson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
Date: Jul 24, 2015
A.C. 90-89B section 4-8.B addresses how to use the gps to validate airspeed r eadings. > On Jul 24, 2015, at 08:43, Jim Combs wrote: > > It would very interesting to talk to the EFIS folks and see if they do any kind of validating the Pitot system against GPS (and call / flag any signif icant deviation of the two). > > Jim C > >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 9:14 PM, Jack Philips w rote: >> Very interesting. Do you by chance have ForeFlight on your i-Pad with a S tratus 2s? One reason I bought that setup was to give me a set of backup in struments in case everything else went south (the Stratus 2s has a built in A HRS). Of course it would be referencing the GPS and reading groundspeed, no t airspeed, but it should be close. >> >> >> >> I=99ve always found the folks at KLYH Tower to be friendly and cour teous. Glad they could help you. >> >> >> >> Jack Phillips >> >> #40610 =93 Fuselage and finally getting back to work on my RV-10 af ter a 3-year hiatus >> >> >> >> From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server @matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson >> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 7:36 PM >> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Declared Emergency >> >> >> >> Yes, so today I had what I think was my first in-flight problem with my ' 10 and it resulted in a declared emergency and precautionary landing. No bi g deal but an interesting experience. >> >> Flying home this morning from Pittsburgh to Durham NC, we had entered IMC conditions as we approached a wad of early morning cells. I requested a cl imb and a deviation in an effort to find VMC before getting too close to th e cells. In the ever continuing effort to maintain hand flying skills with an extremely capable 2 axis autopilot, I decided to hand fly the plane and e njoy the challenge of flying to standard in light convective chop. >> Flightaware Information >> >> At one point I decided to let Tiger fly it for awhile so I could figure o ut my next move. Tiger immediately began a diving turn so I switched him of f and resumed hand flying. Figuring that I had missed one of the buttons dur ing my transition, I did another Direct-to and made sure I was exactly on al titude before giving it back to Tiger. Tiger performed another diving altit ude excursion. >> >> Both excursions exceeded 200' but they were not called out by ATC (nor a re they visible in the Flightaware track). It took a minute or two to figur e out what the problem was; I had lost an accurate airspeed indication. >> >> This is not a particularly big problem other then it rendered my autopilo t unusable (I have not yet explored whether or how my Trutrak unit could hav e been used in some degraded mode without a good airspeed indication). >> >> I told ATC that I had a problem with my airspeed indicator and I requeste d vectors and a descent to VMC and a landing. I was given a turn and a desc ent by the controller and was asked whether I was declaring an emergency. I said "yes". Very quickly a more sure voiced controller took over and direc ted me to lovely Lynchburg Regional. I broke out into hazy VMC at 5,000' ov er familiar territory. I fly over Lynchburg on many trips but hoped to neve r have to land there. >> >> During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my GR T EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving erroneou s readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of the dual AHRS c onnection, problem determination should be simple and is likely water. I'll let you all know what I find. >> >> Some thoughts: >> >> I'm lucky and glad that the failure occurred while hand flying. If Tiger had been flying, it could have been much more confusing. Having said that, Tiger does 99% of my flying. >> Declaring an emergency, even if done reluctantly, clears the mind along w ith the airspace. Loss of airspeed in IMC is no big deal but once detected , it's nice to be able to focus on flying the plane without other distractio ns (once you answer the standard 'souls on board' and 'fuel' questions) >> I recall a few discussions regarding the '10's mechanical stall warning s ystem. Mine is in place and operational. It was a comfort knowing it was t here as a backstop during my approach and landing. I'm glad I put it in. >> Darn the '10 is a sweet plane!! >> That's it so far. Need to go fill out an ASRS report. >> >> Bill "declared my first emergency today" Watson >> >> >> >> http://www.matronic================ >> http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web generous nbsp ; --> http://www.matronics.com/c >> >> >> >> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2015
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
On 7/23/2015 9:14 PM, Jack Philips wrote: > > Very interesting. Do you by chance have ForeFlight on your i-Pad with > a Stratus 2s? One reason I bought that setup was to give me a set of > backup instruments in case everything else went south (the Stratus 2s > has a built in AHRS). Of course it would be referencing the GPS and > reading groundspeed, not airspeed, but it should be close. > > Ive always found the folks at KLYH Tower to be friendly and > courteous. Glad they could help you. > > I have Foreflight but not Stratus. However my G430w displays GPS groundspeed and I did use it for a reference though of course the wind is included and it is TAS rather than IAS which could be an issue if up high. Next time beore landing I'll fashion a small square to cover up my erroneous IAS number on the EFIS if this ever happens again. That can be confusing. The airspeed tape is not confusing - very easy to disregard. I use Foreflight all the time and have it mounted on a center console for easy use but I don't try to use it as part of my backup plan. I've tried to keep it all on the panel with 3 EFIS screens - same model and manufacturer - dual AHRS and a 2 bus electrical system with 2 batteries and 2 alternators. They run independently so if anything fails, the other side is still up. The faulty side can be shut down and all components switched to run on the remaining system until fuel exhaustion. Then I have a round gauge panel with a TT ADI with independent backup battery. Definite overkill but robust and simple to use. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2015
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
On 7/24/2015 8:43 AM, Jim Combs wrote: > It would very interesting to talk to the EFIS folks and see if they do > any kind of validating the Pitot system against GPS (and call / flag > any significant deviation of the two). > That would be interesting. The AP flagged with an "AS" and seemed to go into stall prevention mode, the ADI flagged with an "AS" and killed the GPS azimuth display, the EFIS just gave me erroneous airspeeds and it could do better than that. Yes ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2015
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Some classes for high performance aircraft teach using rpm/100 + MP gives a ballpark power setting. Say 49=75%, 48=70, 47=65, etc. or whatever it is for the given airframe. This is very easy to remember, and it doesn't matter more than a percent or two if you choose 2600 and 22" or 2300 and 25". I generally leave rpm alone for approach phase because my Mooney has a restricted range from 2100-2350 on the engine/prop combination, and 2500 with appropriate MP is easy to manage, as well as enough rpm if you happen to need to go around that you can firewall throttle without any concerns of hurting anything. The last 20 hp or so available with 2700 just isn't that critical in 99.94% of go arounds. It also means that for approach I am only looking at MP for power, and can remember that 15-18" will get me to where I fine tune to go up or down or hold level. Because flaps have low max speed, in fact same speed as RV-10, I don't use them for instrument approaches until runway is in sight and landing assured. Whatever you are using for backup instrumentation needs to be easy to scan, and located such that you can easily use as a tiebreaker between dual EFIS. I chose a Dynon D1 for that purpose, but there are many other ways to approach it. Having same brand as my EFIS is good for having same display format. However, because my backup has its own battery and GPS and software, it is not likely to suffer a common failure with the EFIS. It isn't connected to pitot/static, giving you only GPS ground speed, ground track and GPS altitude, but that should be enough to keep the dirty side down until you can go visual. Standardizing what you do for 95% of your approaches and landings allows minimum brain effort when something fails...just keep the rest of settings where they normally are. Obviously you adjust for the unusual short field/soft field, etc. On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 6:09 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > > On 7/24/2015 8:43 AM, Jim Combs wrote: > >> It would very interesting to talk to the EFIS folks and see if they do >> any kind of validating the Pitot system against GPS (and call / flag any >> significant deviation of the two). >> >> That would be interesting. The AP flagged with an "AS" and seemed to go > into stall prevention mode, the ADI flagged with an "AS" and killed the GPS > azimuth display, the EFIS just gave me erroneous airspeeds and it could do > better than that. Yes > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Windscreen Fairing
From: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Jul 24, 2015
I went a different route, and am very happy with it. I used a piece of shaped aluminum, instead. John -------- #40572 Phase One complete in 2011 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445157#445157 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/windshield_921.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Jul 24, 2015
This discussion points out that many pilots do not fully understand the failure modes or programmed behavior of their equipment. For example, the TT and Trio autopilots both have stall protection built into their software, and will dump the nose down if IAS drops below some pre-set level. The TruTrak ADI is of course not a real AI, long-term the vertical response is set by the VSI. So if your actual airspeed is slowly decreasing, and you are slowly raising the nose in response, the ADI will show nose-level, not nose high which in fact is what is happening. That is why the software displays the warning if it detects low ASI. (I am not sure if the 2 1/4" display shows that warning??). Your GRT display, if operating properly, should continue to give good attitude information, even with a failing ASI. OTOH, the Dynon EFISs use the ASI as part of their attitude solution. Latest software attempts to discover ASI failures, and revert to GPS speed data, but there has been at least one report of an ASI partial failure bad enough to cause an erroneous AI display, but not bad enough to trigger the change over to GPS data. I believe (but am not certain) that the TC and VSI data continue to function properly. So these EFIS units can be flown with an ASI failure, but the pilot has to know what to expect to work, and what not. And it is hard to ignore the ASI when the airspeed shows very low. (and in a Dynon, ignore the AI and just use the TC bars and VSI) -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445158#445158 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2015
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
From: David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com>
My CFII insisted that I test and make a card for various power settings and conditions. I used it "loose leaf" when I was training. It was so handy I incorporated it into my checklist. See attached photo. "Flaps1" means unreflexed, 0 degrees, etc. YMMV. --Dave On Friday, July 24, 2015, Bill Watson wrote: > > Good questions here. > > First, my backup ASI (small round gauge UMA unit in MPH vs Knots) does not > share the static line. I simply left it open to cabin air and did it on > purpose. I still have the air valve I was going to install to enable > switching it between static system and cabin air. Thought about it and > just seemed like adding complexity so I left the valve on the shelf and > left the static port unattached. If the static line ices up, no need to > break the glass or anything because the UMA is already on cabin air. So, > the only thing my GRT AHRS and backup ASI share is the pitot line. Sounds > like water... > > Re the AP, I'm going back to read my Trutrak manual to once again try to > grok it's workings but what I saw momentarily was an "AS" appear on the AP > screen which I think means it saw too low airspeed, 'thought' the plane was > stalling and therefore commanded a pitch down. In any case this is the > kind of incident that will make me a bit more knowledgeable about my AP's > operation. > > I also have a Trutrak ADI which also flashed an "AS". I wasn't really > paying attention to it but recall that it indicated the same thing > momentarily on a recent flight. Perhaps a first responder of sorts. > > On 7/23/2015 10:51 PM, Berck E. Nash wrote: > >> >> On 07/23/2015 05:36 PM, Bill Watson wrote: >> >>> During the steep straight-in approach to Runway 4 I noted that both my >>> GRT EFIS with dual AHRS and the backup airspeed indicator were giving >>> erroneous readings. Since they only share the pitot feed upstream of >>> the dual AHRS connection, problem determination should be simple and is >>> likely water. I'll let you all know what I find. >>> >> I assume they also share a static line? I'm a little confused about why >> the autopilot would use airspeed to hold altitude? I, admittedly, know >> nothing about how autopilots work, but it seems like if I were >> programming an autopilot I'd have it track a pressure a altitude to hold >> an altitude. >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Thank you from Oshkosh - I'll definitely be back
From: Patrick Pulis <rv10free2fly(at)yahoo.com.au>
Date: Jul 24, 2015
Thank you for all those fellow builders who made me feel so welcome at Oshkosh throughout the week, it was a pleasure to have met you all and talked aviation. Regrettably my aviation adventure draws to a close tomorrow as we move on to Canada. As mentioned to all those I met, if you're planning on traveling via Adelaide in South Australia, please contact me in advance, I look forward to have a cold something with you. Warm regards and safe skies to you all. Patrick Pulis Adelaide, South Australia via Oshkosh, Wisconsin ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2015
Subject: Re: Thank you from Oshkosh - I'll definitely be back
From: David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com>
I'm glad to have bumped in to you too, Patrick. Enjoy the rest of your trip! --Dave On Friday, July 24, 2015, Patrick Pulis wrote: > > > > Thank you for all those fellow builders who made me feel so welcome at > Oshkosh throughout the week, it was a pleasure to have met you all and > talked aviation. > > Regrettably my aviation adventure draws to a close tomorrow as we move on > to Canada. > > As mentioned to all those I met, if you're planning on traveling via > Adelaide in South Australia, please contact me in advance, I look forward > to have a cold something with you. > > Warm regards and safe skies to you all. > > Patrick Pulis > Adelaide, South Australia via Oshkosh, Wisconsin > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 2015
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
I use percent power exclusively for approach work. I have it setup so it's always displayed on one of my GRT displays. I like the shortcut method of calculating percent power. Once LOP, I stay there during descent until short final. If the air is smooth I'll keep it WOT, max LOP and bring the RPMs down below 2200 during descent. If bumpy I'll keep the MP at 24" at max LOP to keep me below redline during steeper descents. I'm generally operating at larger busy airports and I find keeping speeds up helps with the mix. Flaps at reflex until final. At intercept I slow it by reducing percent power. On short final with runway in sight I slow it down to flap speed and start the flaps down. In normal ops I pay little attention to airspeed unless asked. Instrument practice I use a slower set of speeds. So I don't train as I fly.... My backup instrumentation is not a regular part of my scan. I have a non-sensitive altimeter, ASI in mph vs knots and an ADI. I check them periodically for function each time a get a new altimeter setting but that's it. I'm relying on my (3) identical EFIS units, independent but linked, along with the dual AHRS to flag problems and cross check. If my attitude agrees with airspeed/power - good. GPS azimuth agrees with bank - good. My G430w is a regular part of my scan - always comparing GPS TAS/GS with GRT TAS and wind. This particular failure caused my GRT airspeed and backup airspeed to be incorrect. I saw the ADI flag with "AS" but didn't react. I saw the TT AP flag with "AS" when I engaged it. The sudden dive told me something was wrong and the "AS" told me why but at first I didn't quite believe it. I didn't notice the G430w GPS speed and GRT speed discrepancy but I'm pretty sure the problem occurred in a very short time frame so... The only thing I'm not completely happy about is the ADI - I wish I had an electric AI instead. I guess another EFIS head is cheaper but if I got one, it would be another GRT.... but I have 3 already. What I'm most happy about is dual bus, dual batt and dual alt. I have a high level of confidence that electrons will flow no matter what. In an all electric panel that's nice in my book. On 7/24/2015 11:32 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > Some classes for high performance aircraft teach using rpm/100 + MP > gives a ballpark power setting. Say 49=75%, 48=70, 47=65, etc. or > whatever it is for the given airframe. This is very easy to remember, > and it doesn't matter more than a percent or two if you choose 2600 > and 22" or 2300 and 25". I generally leave rpm alone for approach > phase because my Mooney has a restricted range from 2100-2350 on the > engine/prop combination, and 2500 with appropriate MP is easy to > manage, as well as enough rpm if you happen to need to go around that > you can firewall throttle without any concerns of hurting anything. > The last 20 hp or so available with 2700 just isn't that critical in > 99.94% of go arounds. It also means that for approach I am only > looking at MP for power, and can remember that 15-18" will get me to > where I fine tune to go up or down or hold level. Because flaps have > low max speed, in fact same speed as RV-10, I don't use them for > instrument approaches until runway is in sight and landing assured. > Whatever you are using for backup instrumentation needs to be easy to > scan, and located such that you can easily use as a tiebreaker between > dual EFIS. > I chose a Dynon D1 for that purpose, but there are many other ways to > approach it. Having same brand as my EFIS is good for having same > display format. However, because my backup has its own battery and GPS > and software, it is not likely to suffer a common failure with the > EFIS. It isn't connected to pitot/static, giving you only GPS ground > speed, ground track and GPS altitude, but that should be enough to > keep the dirty side down until you can go visual. > > Standardizing what you do for 95% of your approaches and landings > allows minimum brain effort when something fails...just keep the rest > of settings where they normally are. Obviously you adjust for the > unusual short field/soft field, etc. > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 6:09 AM, Bill Watson > wrote: > > > > > On 7/24/2015 8:43 AM, Jim Combs wrote: > > It would very interesting to talk to the EFIS folks and see if > they do any kind of validating the Pitot system against GPS > (and call / flag any significant deviation of the two). > > That would be interesting. The AP flagged with an "AS" and seemed > to go into stall prevention mode, the ADI flagged with an "AS" and > killed the GPS azimuth display, the EFIS just gave me erroneous > airspeeds and it could do better than that. Yes > > > * > > > * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 2015
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
Yes, the GRTs were fine without airspeed. A post it scrap fixed the digital airspeed indication. As mentioned, I'm not happy about the ADI though it does what it says the way it says it. an AI would be better. On 7/24/2015 3:08 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > This discussion points out that many pilots do not fully understand the failure modes or programmed behavior of their equipment. > For example, the TT and Trio autopilots both have stall protection built into their software, and will dump the nose down if IAS drops below some pre-set level. > The TruTrak ADI is of course not a real AI, long-term the vertical response is set by the VSI. So if your actual airspeed is slowly decreasing, and you are slowly raising the nose in response, the ADI will show nose-level, not nose high which in fact is what is happening. That is why the software displays the warning if it detects low ASI. (I am not sure if the 2 1/4" display shows that warning??). > Your GRT display, if operating properly, should continue to give good attitude information, even with a failing ASI. > OTOH, the Dynon EFISs use the ASI as part of their attitude solution. Latest software attempts to discover ASI failures, and revert to GPS speed data, but there has been at least one report of an ASI partial failure bad enough to cause an erroneous AI display, but not bad enough to trigger the change over to GPS data. I believe (but am not certain) that the TC and VSI data continue to function properly. > > So these EFIS units can be flown with an ASI failure, but the pilot has to know what to expect to work, and what not. And it is hard to ignore the ASI when the airspeed shows very low. (and in a Dynon, ignore the AI and just use the TC bars and VSI) > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 2015
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Declared Emergency
I made one up too but never stuck with it. I'm going to play with yours for practice flights. Will probably convert to percent power and see how it works. Thanks. Fact is, in normal ops, I do one thing and am quite confident with it. Practicing I do another. Not optimal, potentially a problem, need to ponder further. On 7/24/2015 7:04 PM, David Saylor wrote: > My CFII insisted that I test and make a card for various power > settings and conditions. I used it "loose leaf" when I was training. > It was so handy I incorporated it into my checklist. See attached > photo. "Flaps1" means unreflexed, 0 degrees, etc. YMMV. > --Dave > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: flo scan
From: "cjay" <cgfinney(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jul 25, 2015
Anyone ever have a flo scan transducer fail on them? A search has brought lots of discussion on location, but no discussion on how long they last. I've been having problems with my EIS 6000 and having a hard time tracking down the problem. Basically it works on and off, when not working the screen goes berserk before it shuts down. GRT even bench tested it and said it was fine, that maybe the problem was one of the sensors was putting more than 5volts into one an Aux channel. Right now it's show my fuel flow is not working so I was going to try replacing it. Before I buy one I thought I'd ask the group to see if anyone had any other ideas? cjay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445186#445186 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
Subject: Re: flo scan
Date: Jul 25, 2015
I've heard recently of another EIS doing this exact same thing. Disconnect the auxin puts and plug one back in at a time to see which one introduces the problem. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse(at)saintaviation.com C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 25, 2015, at 1:09 PM, cjay wrote: > > > Anyone ever have a flo scan transducer fail on them? > > A search has brought lots of discussion on location, but no discussion on how long they last. > > I've been having problems with my EIS 6000 and having a hard time tracking down the problem. Basically it works on and off, when not working the screen goes berserk before it shuts down. GRT even bench tested it and said it was fine, that maybe the problem was one of the sensors was putting more than 5volts into one an Aux channel. Right now it's show my fuel flow is not working so I was going to try replacing it. Before I buy one I thought I'd ask the group to see if anyone had any other ideas? > > cjay > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445186#445186 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Kraus <n223rv(at)wolflakeairport.net>
Subject: Re: flo scan
Date: Jul 25, 2015
I had one fail on a O-320. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 25, 2015, at 12:09 PM, cjay wrote: > > > Anyone ever have a flo scan transducer fail on them? > > A search has brought lots of discussion on location, but no discussion on how long they last. > > I've been having problems with my EIS 6000 and having a hard time tracking down the problem. Basically it works on and off, when not working the screen goes berserk before it shuts down. GRT even bench tested it and said it was fine, that maybe the problem was one of the sensors was putting more than 5volts into one an Aux channel. Right now it's show my fuel flow is not working so I was going to try replacing it. Before I buy one I thought I'd ask the group to see if anyone had any other ideas? > > cjay > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445186#445186 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David" <dlm34077(at)cox.net>
Subject: Cleveland brake parts
Date: Jul 27, 2015
I have used Cleveland brake parts; I was one of the original prototypes for the Matco wheels and brakes, so removed and stored used brakes parts. Also have box of pads (8?) left. Email me directly if you are interested. For new builders, the Matco wheels and brakes are the way to go. David --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cleveland brake parts
From: Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Date: Jul 27, 2015
If they're not already spoke for ..... I have a few other airplanes with Cleveland stuff .... Linn On 7/27/2015 8:43 AM, David wrote: > > I have used Cleveland brake parts; I was one of the original > prototypes for the Matco wheels and brakes, so removed and stored used > brakes parts. Also have box of pads (8?) left. Email me directly if > you are interested. For new builders, the Matco wheels and brakes are > the way to go. > > David > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Avast logo > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Bonding fiberglass to plexiglass
From: "rvdave" <rv610dave(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 27, 2015
Recently I glassed around cabin rear windows after sanding with 80 and wiping with acetone and paper towel. That was about two months ago, now sanding near the taped edge I noticed it peeling up, testing an area showed no bond to plex. Thinking I apparently didn't sand deep enough into plex to get a good bond. Using West epoxy--the glass bonded excellent to the cabin top. I ended up peeling and cutting away unbonded glass to plex for a redo. What went wrong and what should I do for a confident bond? -------- Dave Ford RV6 for sale RV10 building Cadillac, MI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445248#445248 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: KOSH Parking
From: "kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jul 27, 2015
Hi Bob Thanks for the tip on the plywood squares. When I was parked, my wheels started to sink almost immediately. After I rolled up on the squares the problem was solved. Cheers Les Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445263#445263 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Soundproofing
From: "kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jul 27, 2015
Hi Now that I have a few hours on my -10, I am thinking about installing some soundproofing. At KOSH I saw a demo of the Sound-Ex soundproofing at the Plane Patterns booth. IT seemed like a very effective and light product. Given that I don't have access to the floor wells, I was wondering if anyone can provide guidance on where retrofitted soundproofing has proven the most effective (ie. cabin side firewall / side panels etc, under front seats etc. Is the Sound-Ex product effective? Cheers Les Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445264#445264 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2015
Subject: Re: KOSH Parking
From: Bob Condrey <condreyb(at)gmail.com>
Lesson learned over the years - I also use the same technique on my camping trailer in Camp Scholler! Glad it all worked out for you. Bob On Monday, July 27, 2015, kearney wrote: > > > > Hi Bob > > Thanks for the tip on the plywood squares. When I was parked, my wheels > started to sink almost immediately. After I rolled up on the squares the > problem was solved. > > Cheers > > Les > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445263#445263 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Danny Riggs <jdriggs49(at)msn.com>
Subject: Soundproofing
Date: Jul 27, 2015
I used it in my -10 and it helped a bunch Now that isn't saying that it's gonna be as quiet as an airliner but it hel ps > Subject: RV10-List: Soundproofing > From: kearney(at)shaw.ca > Date: Mon=2C 27 Jul 2015 10:23:29 -0700 > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > > > Hi > > Now that I have a few hours on my -10=2C I am thinking about installing s ome soundproofing. At KOSH I saw a demo of the Sound-Ex soundproofing at th e Plane Patterns booth. IT seemed like a very effective and light product. > > Given that I don't have access to the floor wells=2C I was wondering if a nyone can provide guidance on where retrofitted soundproofing has proven th e most effective (ie. cabin side firewall / side panels etc=2C under front seats etc. > > Is the Sound-Ex product effective? > > Cheers > > Les > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445264#445264 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Pascal" <rv10flyer(at)live.com>
Subject: Re: Soundproofing
Date: Jul 27, 2015
Les; For what its worth. The best soundproofing I have found is where I can hear it. I bought Zulu 2 headsets and the plane is as quiet as I will ever make it. With that said. I used heat insulation and a spray on sound insulator that dissipated the noise significantly but in the end, weight and ease wise, I determined that the headset investment was the best route. Pascal -----Original Message----- From: kearney Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 10:23 AM Subject: RV10-List: Soundproofing Hi Now that I have a few hours on my -10, I am thinking about installing some soundproofing. At KOSH I saw a demo of the Sound-Ex soundproofing at the Plane Patterns booth. IT seemed like a very effective and light product. Given that I don't have access to the floor wells, I was wondering if anyone can provide guidance on where retrofitted soundproofing has proven the most effective (ie. cabin side firewall / side panels etc, under front seats etc. Is the Sound-Ex product effective? Cheers Les Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445264#445264 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2015
Subject: Re: Bonding fiberglass to plexiglass
From: Ed Kranz <ed.kranz(at)gmail.com>
Acetone is a big no-no on plexiglass. It can cause crazing, and it kind of melts the plexi. I've used naptha or a PPG paint reducer for all the plexi cleaning. My guess is that the acetone remelted the areas that you sanded, and smoothed them out and the epoxy didn't bond. On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 10:55 AM, rvdave wrote: > > Recently I glassed around cabin rear windows after sanding with 80 and > wiping with acetone and paper towel. That was about two months ago, now > sanding near the taped edge I noticed it peeling up, testing an area showed > no bond to plex. Thinking I apparently didn't sand deep enough into plex > to get a good bond. Using West epoxy--the glass bonded excellent to the > cabin top. I ended up peeling and cutting away unbonded glass to plex for > a redo. What went wrong and what should I do for a confident bond? > > -------- > Dave Ford > RV6 for sale > RV10 building > Cadillac, MI > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445248#445248 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Soundproofing
From: "kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jul 27, 2015
Hi Since I posted this I started working through the VAF archives etc. I ended up researching Abesco FP200 foam that I read about on the VAF forums. This would seem to be a good product to install under the floor pans as it is an expanding fire stop foam and does have some noise damping properties as well. The lightening holes would provide installation access. When cured it is a very light foam. Has anyone on the list used this? As I understand it, one limitation is that it should not be used in places where temps normally exceed 150-200C on an ongoing basis. Does anyone have any idea as to what the skin temps are near the exhausts? Lastly, here is an interesting demo of the differences between fire-blocks vs fire-stops. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djB4dmfHhQk Cheers Les Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445271#445271 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bonding fiberglass to plexiglass
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Date: Jul 27, 2015
Kerosene is also a good cleaner for plexi if needed. Tim On 7/27/2015 1:13 PM, Ed Kranz wrote: > Acetone is a big no-no on plexiglass. It can cause crazing, and it kind > of melts the plexi. I've used naptha or a PPG paint reducer for all the > plexi cleaning. My guess is that the acetone remelted the areas that you > sanded, and smoothed them out and the epoxy didn't bond. > > On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 10:55 AM, rvdave > wrote: > > > > > Recently I glassed around cabin rear windows after sanding with 80 > and wiping with acetone and paper towel. That was about two months > ago, now sanding near the taped edge I noticed it peeling up, > testing an area showed no bond to plex. Thinking I apparently > didn't sand deep enough into plex to get a good bond. Using West > epoxy--the glass bonded excellent to the cabin top. I ended up > peeling and cutting away unbonded glass to plex for a redo. What > went wrong and what should I do for a confident bond? > > -------- > Dave Ford > RV6 for sale > RV10 building > Cadillac, MI > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2015
Subject: Re: Bonding fiberglass to plexiglass
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
Urethane paint reducer is the ticket on plexiglass. I found it in the literature for the Lord adhesive that Geoff recommends. Does a nice job without risk to the plexi. If I recall correctly, I think the plexi is supposed to be sanded with 200 or 220 grit sandpaper before epoxy/fiberglassing. While I use 80 grit to sand to shape, I generally go over that with 220 before wiping clean and starting the glass work. On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > Kerosene is also a good cleaner for plexi if needed. > > Tim > > On 7/27/2015 1:13 PM, Ed Kranz wrote: > >> Acetone is a big no-no on plexiglass. It can cause crazing, and it kind >> of melts the plexi. I've used naptha or a PPG paint reducer for all the >> plexi cleaning. My guess is that the acetone remelted the areas that you >> sanded, and smoothed them out and the epoxy didn't bond. >> >> On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 10:55 AM, rvdave > > wrote: >> >> > >> >> Recently I glassed around cabin rear windows after sanding with 80 >> and wiping with acetone and paper towel. That was about two months >> ago, now sanding near the taped edge I noticed it peeling up, >> testing an area showed no bond to plex. Thinking I apparently >> didn't sand deep enough into plex to get a good bond. Using West >> epoxy--the glass bonded excellent to the cabin top. I ended up >> peeling and cutting away unbonded glass to plex for a redo. What >> went wrong and what should I do for a confident bond? >> >> -------- >> Dave Ford >> RV6 for sale >> RV10 building >> Cadillac, MI >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: flo scan
From: "cjay" <cgfinney(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jul 27, 2015
I guess I could try this, but the problem doesn't show up until flight, so this would take a lot of flight testing, but maybe I could do it on the gnd. jesse(at)saintaviation.co wrote: > I've heard recently of another EIS doing this exact same thing. Disconnect the auxin puts and plug one back in at a time to see which one introduces the problem. > > Jesse Saint > Saint Aviation, Inc. > jesse(at)saintaviation.com > C: 352-427-0285 > F: 815-377-3694 > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Jul 25, 2015, at 1:09 PM, cjay wrote: > > > > > > > > Anyone ever have a flo scan transducer fail on them? > > > > A search has brought lots of discussion on location, but no discussion on how long they last. > > > > I've been having problems with my EIS 6000 and having a hard time tracking down the problem. Basically it works on and off, when not working the screen goes berserk before it shuts down. GRT even bench tested it and said it was fine, that maybe the problem was one of the sensors was putting more than 5volts into one an Aux channel. Right now it's show my fuel flow is not working so I was going to try replacing it. Before I buy one I thought I'd ask the group to see if anyone had any other ideas? > > > > cjay > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445186#445186 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445279#445279 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Soundproofing
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Jul 27, 2015
I'm with RV10Flyer; the best sound reduction/pound is from a good headset. Start there, then decide if you need more. (My personal answer was "no".) However, I did have to do something about the draft in the back; passengers in the back had cold heads and hot feet. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445282#445282 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Soundproofing
From: Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jul 27, 2015
Bob What did you do for the back pax? Cheers Les Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 27, 2015, at 17:04, Bob Turner wrote: > > > I'm with RV10Flyer; the best sound reduction/pound is from a good headset. > Start there, then decide if you need more. (My personal answer was "no".) > > However, I did have to do something about the draft in the back; passengers in the back had cold heads and hot feet. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445282#445282 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Soundproofing
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Jul 27, 2015
kearney wrote: > Bob > > What did you do for the back pax? > > Cheers > > Les > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Jul 27, 2015, at 17:04, Bob Turner wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm with RV10Flyer; the best sound reduction/pound is from a good headset. > > Start there, then decide if you need more. (My personal answer was "no".) > > > > However, I did have to do something about the draft in the back; passengers in the back had cold heads and hot feet. > > > > -------- > > Bob Turner > > RV-10 QB > > > > > > > > > > > Well, mostly I turned the pilot's intercom volume down so I don't have to hear the complaints!! ha ha. Seriously, I stuffed some insulation into all the corregations in the aft baggage bulkhead. That helped some. As a test, I have taped some cardboard in front of the rear heat outlets, taped on 3 sides but canted at 45 degrees up, to encourage the heat to go up instead of out to their feet. That helped some. So do wool hats. Since the side walls and baggage bulkhead are not insulated, they are going to be cold when in flight, if it's cold outside. I suspect that a small amount of stick-on insulation, on those side walls and baggage bulkhead, would fix the problem more permanently, but I haven't been motivated enough yet to try it. Oddly the front seat occupants don't seem to have the same complaint of hot feet, cold head. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445285#445285 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Pascal" <rv10flyer(at)live.com>
Subject: Re: Soundproofing
Date: Jul 27, 2015
If you mean headsets? same for back Pax if you mean hot feet and cold heads?, the answer lies on the vent doors on the firewall- http://www.planeinnovations.com/product/heater-bypass-valves-hbv-03/ I was blessed to be given the chance to help design them. They have tabs that totally block any heat from entering and are stainless/stiff so doors dont warp when opening and closing. result-no hot tunnel and two young daughters (one very temperature sensitive) that have been quite happy with no hot feet (during summer) and warm in winter- I used a PVC 45 degree pipe on the back holes to force the heat up versus right to feet. Pascal -----Original Message----- From: Les Kearney Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 4:43 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Soundproofing Bob What did you do for the back pax? Cheers Les Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 27, 2015, at 17:04, Bob Turner wrote: > > > I'm with RV10Flyer; the best sound reduction/pound is from a good headset. > Start there, then decide if you need more. (My personal answer was "no".) > > However, I did have to do something about the draft in the back; > passengers in the back had cold heads and hot feet. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445282#445282 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
Subject: Re: Soundproofing
Date: Jul 27, 2015
Back passengers get cold if the doors aren't well sealed. The air in the cabin is sucked out around the door hinges and is replaced from tailcone air through the corregations in the rear baggage wall. If you have this problem, try sealing around the hinges better. Regarding noise, door seals hugely reduce the noise level in the cabin. A plane I worked on with inflatable door seals went from the loudest -10 to probably the quietest -10 I have flown when the door seals were finished and inflated. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. 352-427-0285 jesse(at)saintaviation.com Sent from my iPad > On Jul 27, 2015, at 7:43 PM, Les Kearney wrote: > > > Bob > > What did you do for the back pax? > > Cheers > > Les > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jul 27, 2015, at 17:04, Bob Turner wrote: >> >> >> I'm with RV10Flyer; the best sound reduction/pound is from a good headset. >> Start there, then decide if you need more. (My personal answer was "no".) >> >> However, I did have to do something about the draft in the back; passengers in the back had cold heads and hot feet. >> >> -------- >> Bob Turner >> RV-10 QB >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445282#445282 > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: plexiglass bond to fiberglass
From: "rvdave" <rv610dave(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 27, 2015
Maybe I wasn't clear about not bonding the plex to the fiberglass top but using fiberglass cloth and epoxy over the plex/fiberglass joint to perhaps eliminate cracking around the window joint. I will try the urethane cleaner for cleaning after sanding to make deeper grooves in the plex, maybe that is the solution. -------- Dave Ford RV6 for sale RV10 building Cadillac, MI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445290#445290 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 27, 2015
Subject: Re: Cleveland brake parts
Thanks David, I'm well set for pads and all but the discs seem to be in good shape. I plan to replace the discs with some heavy duty replacements, so if you have those, drop me a line. I practiced the techniques discussed earlier on the way from OSH to NorCal. It's kinda fun. A little throttle brings the tail right around with full rudder. Thanks again, Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 5:43 AM, David wrote: > > > I have used Cleveland brake parts; I was one of the original prototypes > for the Matco wheels and brakes, so removed and stored used brakes parts. > Also have box of pads (8?) left. Email me directly if you are interested. > For new builders, the Matco wheels and brakes are the way to go. > > > David > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > * > > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: V Speeds
From: "kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jul 27, 2015
Hi At KOSH I had a spirited discussion with a group of South Africans regarding flutter, IAS and TAS. The end result was a revisited Van's article on flutter that I had read many, many moons ago. (See http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf) I also reviewed the RV-10 v-speeds published by Vans in the flight test doc after reading he flutter document. In particular I was surprised to note that the Vne published by Vans of 230 mph / 200 Kts was TAS and not IAS. Many of the POH docs available on line quote a 200 KIAS value for Vne which, at higher altitudes, could lead to a reduced flutter safety margin. I am assuming that all the other V speeds should be KIAS and not KTAS not that there would be much of a difference except perhaps for the max maneuvering speed / max structural cruise speed. Is this correct or am I missing something here? Cheers Les Inquiring minds really need to know. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445292#445292 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bonding fiberglass to plexiglass
From: "Greg McFarlane" <grbcmcfarlane(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 28, 2015
I had exactly the same result using West Systems Epoxy although prep did not include cleaning with acetone. Just like you (although it looked great) I found no adhesion to the Plexglass with my glass layup over the window to cabin top intersection. When I questioned my West agent they were not at all surprised that the bond had been unsuccessful. Turns out the only product that West recommends for Plexglass is their G Flex. I have since like you peeled off all the glass layup and have routed out around ALL windows and "reglued" with GFlex and 403 filler. Like a lot of 2seat RV builders I have previously used the recommended epoxy 105/206 combo to bond windscreen fairings and they have apparently been successful. However with the flatish RV10 side window experience I now suspect that a lot of these windscreen lay ups have little adhesion to the Plexglass. Because of the curve at the bottom of the windscreen the layup is very tight on the screen and it's hard to see there is no adhesion, but again because the layup is so tight against the screen it's not an issue. Cheers from Western Australia Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445297#445297 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Soundproofing
From: "Greg McFarlane" <grbcmcfarlane(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 28, 2015
As Jesse has said, any air leakage around the door seals/hinges will encourage airflow from the baggage V holes into the cabin, however those V holes are actually for airflow OUT of the cabin. Not a good idea to block these holes up to keep rear passengers ears warm as a potential build up of any Carbon Monoxide will probably be the result. Cheers from Western Australia Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445299#445299 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2015
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: V Speeds
A quick response to test my own basic understanding - Vne is always expressed in TAS, Vstalls all in indicated. I think the physics behind that is what creates the 'coffin corner' at high altitudes. Experts, please correct and explain. On 7/28/2015 12:05 AM, kearney wrote: > > Hi > > At KOSH I had a spirited discussion with a group of South Africans regarding flutter, IAS and TAS. The end result was a revisited Van's article on flutter that I had read many, many moons ago. (See http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf) > > I also reviewed the RV-10 v-speeds published by Vans in the flight test doc after reading he flutter document. In particular I was surprised to note that the Vne published by Vans of 230 mph / 200 Kts was TAS and not IAS. Many of the POH docs available on line quote a 200 KIAS value for Vne which, at higher altitudes, could lead to a reduced flutter safety margin. > > I am assuming that all the other V speeds should be KIAS and not KTAS not that there would be much of a difference except perhaps for the max maneuvering speed / max structural cruise speed. > > Is this correct or am I missing something here? > > Cheers > > Les > > Inquiring minds really need to know. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445292#445292 > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: V Speeds
From: Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Date: Jul 28, 2015
I'm no expert, but my take is that TAS Vne will relate to a finite stress on the airframe, while the IAS stress will vary by temperature and altitude. I think the Vne figure relates more to flutter and airframe design limits rather than the 'coffin corner'. The 'coffin corner' is going to be that area where the stall speed at altitude becomes very close to the operating speed, and would be a function of the aircraft aerodynamics and available power. I'm guessing that our normally aspirated aircraft would get into the 'coffin corner' near it's service ceiling ...... as excess lift and available power run out. Linn On 7/28/2015 9:32 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > > A quick response to test my own basic understanding - Vne is always > expressed in TAS, Vstalls all in indicated. I think the physics > behind that is what creates the 'coffin corner' at high altitudes. > > Experts, please correct and explain. > > On 7/28/2015 12:05 AM, kearney wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> At KOSH I had a spirited discussion with a group of South Africans >> regarding flutter, IAS and TAS. The end result was a revisited Van's >> article on flutter that I had read many, many moons ago. (See >> http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf) >> >> I also reviewed the RV-10 v-speeds published by Vans in the flight >> test doc after reading he flutter document. In particular I was >> surprised to note that the Vne published by Vans of 230 mph / 200 Kts >> was TAS and not IAS. Many of the POH docs available on line quote a >> 200 KIAS value for Vne which, at higher altitudes, could lead to a >> reduced flutter safety margin. >> >> I am assuming that all the other V speeds should be KIAS and not KTAS >> not that there would be much of a difference except perhaps for the >> max maneuvering speed / max structural cruise speed. >> >> Is this correct or am I missing something here? >> >> Cheers >> >> Les >> >> Inquiring minds really need to know. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445292#445292 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 07/28/15 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Soundproofing
From: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Jul 28, 2015
kearney wrote: > Hi > > Since I posted this I started working through the VAF archives etc. I ended up researching Abesco FP200 foam that I read about on the VAF forums. > > This would seem to be a good product to install under the floor pans as it is an expanding fire stop foam and does have some noise damping properties as well. The lightening holes would provide installation access. When cured it is a very light foam. > > Has anyone on the list used this? > > As I understand it, one limitation is that it should not be used in places where temps normally exceed 150-200C on an ongoing basis. Does anyone have any idea as to what the skin temps are near the exhausts? > > Lastly, here is an interesting demo of the differences between fire-blocks vs fire-stops. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djB4dmfHhQk > > Cheers > > Les Les, I used several cans of Abesco FP200, and love it. I put it under all the floors. The floors feel solid, are cool, and I assume there is sound reduction. The best part is that it's a positive fire barrier. It's a great product. John -------- #40572 Phase One complete in 2011 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445306#445306 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2015
Subject: Re: Soundproofing
From: Ed Kranz <ed.kranz(at)gmail.com>
I used Abesco FP200 under both the front and rear floorboards as I riveted them in place. It has quite a bit of force as it expands, and I'd recommend being careful to either spray the foam under the floorboards before you rivet them down, let it cure, trim the excess, and then install the floorboards, or if the floors are already down, make sure you don't overfill the voids. A nice side effect is that the floorboards have a very nice solid feel with the foam in there. On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 6:43 PM, Les Kearney wrote: > > Bob > > What did you do for the back pax? > > Cheers > > Les > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jul 27, 2015, at 17:04, Bob Turner wrote: > > > > > > I'm with RV10Flyer; the best sound reduction/pound is from a good > headset. > > Start there, then decide if you need more. (My personal answer was "no".) > > > > However, I did have to do something about the draft in the back; > passengers in the back had cold heads and hot feet. > > > > -------- > > Bob Turner > > RV-10 QB > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445282#445282 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bonding fiberglass to plexiglass
From: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Jul 28, 2015
I think that I used a high quality isopropyl alcohol after sanding with 200 grit. If I remember correctly, acetone was considered a no-no. Don't hold me to it, it was a long time ago. John -------- #40572 Phase One complete in 2011 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445308#445308 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2015
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: V Speeds
Amateur analysis sans Web research continued: The finite stress on the airframe thing I hadn't considered. I was thinking about Vne relating to flutter and flutter being TAS (speed with with air molecules pass over surfaces) driven. Then my recall of the 'coffin corner' issue be IAS stall speeds rising with altitude to meet the TAS Vne. Go a bit slower and you fall out of the sky, go a little faster and control surfaces begin to depart. Doesn't apply to RV10 class stuff but rather high flying jets and stuff. But now I'm having trouble making sense out that... Bill "help!" Watson On 7/28/2015 9:59 AM, Linn Walters wrote: > > I'm no expert, but my take is that TAS Vne will relate to a finite > stress on the airframe, while the IAS stress will vary by temperature > and altitude. I think the Vne figure relates more to flutter and > airframe design limits rather than the 'coffin corner'. The 'coffin > corner' is going to be that area where the stall speed at altitude > becomes very close to the operating speed, and would be a function of > the aircraft aerodynamics and available power. I'm guessing that our > normally aspirated aircraft would get into the 'coffin corner' near > it's service ceiling ...... as excess lift and available power run out. > Linn > > > On 7/28/2015 9:32 AM, Bill Watson wrote: >> >> A quick response to test my own basic understanding - Vne is always >> expressed in TAS, Vstalls all in indicated. I think the physics >> behind that is what creates the 'coffin corner' at high altitudes. >> >> Experts, please correct and explain. >> >> On 7/28/2015 12:05 AM, kearney wrote: >>> >>> Hi >>> >>> At KOSH I had a spirited discussion with a group of South Africans >>> regarding flutter, IAS and TAS. The end result was a revisited Van's >>> article on flutter that I had read many, many moons ago. (See >>> http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf) >>> >>> I also reviewed the RV-10 v-speeds published by Vans in the flight >>> test doc after reading he flutter document. In particular I was >>> surprised to note that the Vne published by Vans of 230 mph / 200 >>> Kts was TAS and not IAS. Many of the POH docs available on line >>> quote a 200 KIAS value for Vne which, at higher altitudes, could >>> lead to a reduced flutter safety margin. >>> >>> I am assuming that all the other V speeds should be KIAS and not >>> KTAS not that there would be much of a difference except perhaps for >>> the max maneuvering speed / max structural cruise speed. >>> >>> Is this correct or am I missing something here? >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Les >>> >>> Inquiring minds really need to know. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445292#445292 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> 07/28/15 >> >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 07/28/15 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2015
Subject: Re: V Speeds
From: "Berck E. Nash" <flyboy(at)gmail.com>
Close, but some corrections: For certified airplanes, Vne is an indicated airspeed limit. In certified planes, you can safely dump the nose up to redline on the airspeed indicator and not worry about flutter. The margins are such that your true airspeed at Vne (indicated) are within limits even at the service ceiling. An RV-10 is not a certified plane, and Van's has kindly specified a Vne in true airspeed so that we know where the margins are, rather than limiting us to an indicated limit. Now, "coffin's corner" is an entirely different situation. You can not get anywhere near "coffin's corner" in an RV-10. Coffins corner means that you're flying in a very narrow range between a stall and an overspeed. At 21,000 ft, you're going to stall at somewhere around 60mph IAS. Your maximum safe speed (230mph TAS) is at worst around 160mph on a very hot day. That gives you a 100mph margin between a stall and an overspeed condition. Not a corner at all--that's a lot of margin. Coffin's corner only really applies to jets. Most of the jets I've flown have somewhere around 10-20 knot spread between stall and overspeed at their service ceiling. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: V Speeds
From: Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Date: Jul 28, 2015
Awesome discussion! High flying jets (read airliners ..... not the U2 ;-) ) have the power to go faster way up there, and their speeds (I think) are computed as % mach. They also have a thing called 'mach buffet' ..... and knowledge of that is above my pay grade. However, for this discussion of RV-10 issues, you really have to work to get into the 'coffin corner' .... if you really can. I think some web searches may shed some 'technical light' on the difference. Stall speed being IAS is probably due to the fact that's what we see ..... and no conversion to TAS is necessary. I think all the parameters that refer to flight in air would technically be more accurate but harder to display without some knob twisting. Linn ...... final wheel pants and cowl work. So much work with small gains. On 7/28/2015 11:48 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > > Amateur analysis sans Web research continued: The finite stress on > the airframe thing I hadn't considered. I was thinking about Vne > relating to flutter and flutter being TAS (speed with with air > molecules pass over surfaces) driven. > > Then my recall of the 'coffin corner' issue be IAS stall speeds rising > with altitude to meet the TAS Vne. Go a bit slower and you fall out > of the sky, go a little faster and control surfaces begin to depart. > Doesn't apply to RV10 class stuff but rather high flying jets and > stuff. But now I'm having trouble making sense out that... > > Bill "help!" Watson > > On 7/28/2015 9:59 AM, Linn Walters wrote: >> >> I'm no expert, but my take is that TAS Vne will relate to a finite >> stress on the airframe, while the IAS stress will vary by temperature >> and altitude. I think the Vne figure relates more to flutter and >> airframe design limits rather than the 'coffin corner'. The 'coffin >> corner' is going to be that area where the stall speed at altitude >> becomes very close to the operating speed, and would be a function of >> the aircraft aerodynamics and available power. I'm guessing that our >> normally aspirated aircraft would get into the 'coffin corner' near >> it's service ceiling ...... as excess lift and available power run out. >> Linn >> >> >> On 7/28/2015 9:32 AM, Bill Watson wrote: >>> >>> A quick response to test my own basic understanding - Vne is always >>> expressed in TAS, Vstalls all in indicated. I think the physics >>> behind that is what creates the 'coffin corner' at high altitudes. >>> >>> Experts, please correct and explain. >>> >>> On 7/28/2015 12:05 AM, kearney wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> At KOSH I had a spirited discussion with a group of South Africans >>>> regarding flutter, IAS and TAS. The end result was a revisited >>>> Van's article on flutter that I had read many, many moons ago. (See >>>> http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf) >>>> >>>> I also reviewed the RV-10 v-speeds published by Vans in the flight >>>> test doc after reading he flutter document. In particular I was >>>> surprised to note that the Vne published by Vans of 230 mph / 200 >>>> Kts was TAS and not IAS. Many of the POH docs available on line >>>> quote a 200 KIAS value for Vne which, at higher altitudes, could >>>> lead to a reduced flutter safety margin. >>>> >>>> I am assuming that all the other V speeds should be KIAS and not >>>> KTAS not that there would be much of a difference except perhaps >>>> for the max maneuvering speed / max structural cruise speed. >>>> >>>> Is this correct or am I missing something here? >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> Les >>>> >>>> Inquiring minds really need to know. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Read this topic online here: >>>> >>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445292#445292 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> No virus found in this message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> 07/28/15 >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> 07/28/15 >> >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 07/28/15 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2015
Subject: Re: V Speeds
From: "Berck E. Nash" <flyboy(at)gmail.com>
Here's what coffin's corner looks like on a PFD: http://www.pbase.com/flying_dutchman/image/124628692 It's a pretty routine scenario for airliners as we try to fly as high as we safely can to save on fuel. Not a lot of margin, and it's not a good idea to hand-fly at those altitudes. Or to fly too close to thunderstorms. Not a problem in an RV-10 as you just can't get high enough. On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:25 AM, Linn Walters wrote: > > Awesome discussion! > High flying jets (read airliners ..... not the U2 ;-) ) have the power to > go faster way up there, and their speeds (I think) are computed as % mach. > They also have a thing called 'mach buffet' ..... and knowledge of that is > above my pay grade. However, for this discussion of RV-10 issues, you > really have to work to get into the 'coffin corner' .... if you really can. > > I think some web searches may shed some 'technical light' on the > difference. Stall speed being IAS is probably due to the fact that's what > we see ..... and no conversion to TAS is necessary. I think all the > parameters that refer to flight in air would technically be more accurate > but harder to display without some knob twisting. > Linn ...... final wheel pants and cowl work. So much work with small > gains. > > On 7/28/2015 11:48 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > >> >> Amateur analysis sans Web research continued: The finite stress on the >> airframe thing I hadn't considered. I was thinking about Vne relating to >> flutter and flutter being TAS (speed with with air molecules pass over >> surfaces) driven. >> >> Then my recall of the 'coffin corner' issue be IAS stall speeds rising >> with altitude to meet the TAS Vne. Go a bit slower and you fall out of the >> sky, go a little faster and control surfaces begin to depart. Doesn't >> apply to RV10 class stuff but rather high flying jets and stuff. But now >> I'm having trouble making sense out that... >> >> Bill "help!" Watson >> >> On 7/28/2015 9:59 AM, Linn Walters wrote: >> >>> >>> I'm no expert, but my take is that TAS Vne will relate to a finite >>> stress on the airframe, while the IAS stress will vary by temperature and >>> altitude. I think the Vne figure relates more to flutter and airframe >>> design limits rather than the 'coffin corner'. The 'coffin corner' is >>> going to be that area where the stall speed at altitude becomes very close >>> to the operating speed, and would be a function of the aircraft >>> aerodynamics and available power. I'm guessing that our normally aspirated >>> aircraft would get into the 'coffin corner' near it's service ceiling >>> ...... as excess lift and available power run out. >>> Linn >>> >>> >>> On 7/28/2015 9:32 AM, Bill Watson wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> A quick response to test my own basic understanding - Vne is always >>>> expressed in TAS, Vstalls all in indicated. I think the physics behind >>>> that is what creates the 'coffin corner' at high altitudes. >>>> >>>> Experts, please correct and explain. >>>> >>>> On 7/28/2015 12:05 AM, kearney wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi >>>>> >>>>> At KOSH I had a spirited discussion with a group of South Africans >>>>> regarding flutter, IAS and TAS. The end result was a revisited Van's >>>>> article on flutter that I had read many, many moons ago. (See >>>>> http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf) >>>>> >>>>> I also reviewed the RV-10 v-speeds published by Vans in the flight >>>>> test doc after reading he flutter document. In particular I was surprised >>>>> to note that the Vne published by Vans of 230 mph / 200 Kts was TAS and not >>>>> IAS. Many of the POH docs available on line quote a 200 KIAS value for Vne >>>>> which, at higher altitudes, could lead to a reduced flutter safety margin. >>>>> >>>>> I am assuming that all the other V speeds should be KIAS and not KTAS >>>>> not that there would be much of a difference except perhaps for the max >>>>> maneuvering speed / max structural cruise speed. >>>>> >>>>> Is this correct or am I missing something here? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> >>>>> Les >>>>> >>>>> Inquiring minds really need to know. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Read this topic online here: >>>>> >>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445292#445292 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- >>>>> No virus found in this message. >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> No virus found in this message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> 07/28/15 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> 07/28/15 >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> 07/28/15 >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Philips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com>
Subject: V Speeds
Date: Jul 28, 2015
Mach Buffet I know a little bit about. It occurs when the airstream locally exceeds the speed of sound, setting up small standing shock waves and flow separation behind the shockwaves. If a wing is flying at say .95 Mach, as the air flows over the curve of the airfoil, it accelerates and may locally exceed Mach 1.0, , leading to formation of a shock wave at that point. Air behind the shock wave is subsonic and is prone to separating from the wing, leading to a buffet of the control surfaces much like the buffeting that occurs before a stall. As the wing accelerates, the shock formation moves further aft on the wing, until at supersonic speeds it is at the trailing edge. Jack Phillips Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia Beginning (finally) to rivet some components of the fuselage kit -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Linn Walters Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 12:26 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: V Speeds Awesome discussion! High flying jets (read airliners ..... not the U2 ;-) ) have the power to go faster way up there, and their speeds (I think) are computed as % mach. They also have a thing called 'mach buffet' ..... and knowledge of that is above my pay grade. However, for this discussion of RV-10 issues, you really have to work to get into the 'coffin corner' .... if you really can. I think some web searches may shed some 'technical light' on the difference. Stall speed being IAS is probably due to the fact that's what we see ..... and no conversion to TAS is necessary. I think all the parameters that refer to flight in air would technically be more accurate but harder to display without some knob twisting. Linn ...... final wheel pants and cowl work. So much work with small gains. On 7/28/2015 11:48 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > > Amateur analysis sans Web research continued: The finite stress on > the airframe thing I hadn't considered. I was thinking about Vne > relating to flutter and flutter being TAS (speed with with air > molecules pass over surfaces) driven. > > Then my recall of the 'coffin corner' issue be IAS stall speeds rising > with altitude to meet the TAS Vne. Go a bit slower and you fall out > of the sky, go a little faster and control surfaces begin to depart. > Doesn't apply to RV10 class stuff but rather high flying jets and > stuff. But now I'm having trouble making sense out that... > > Bill "help!" Watson > > On 7/28/2015 9:59 AM, Linn Walters wrote: >> >> I'm no expert, but my take is that TAS Vne will relate to a finite >> stress on the airframe, while the IAS stress will vary by temperature >> and altitude. I think the Vne figure relates more to flutter and >> airframe design limits rather than the 'coffin corner'. The 'coffin >> corner' is going to be that area where the stall speed at altitude >> becomes very close to the operating speed, and would be a function of >> the aircraft aerodynamics and available power. I'm guessing that our >> normally aspirated aircraft would get into the 'coffin corner' near >> it's service ceiling ...... as excess lift and available power run out. >> Linn >> >> >> On 7/28/2015 9:32 AM, Bill Watson wrote: >>> >>> A quick response to test my own basic understanding - Vne is always >>> expressed in TAS, Vstalls all in indicated. I think the physics >>> behind that is what creates the 'coffin corner' at high altitudes. >>> >>> Experts, please correct and explain. >>> >>> On 7/28/2015 12:05 AM, kearney wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> At KOSH I had a spirited discussion with a group of South Africans >>>> regarding flutter, IAS and TAS. The end result was a revisited >>>> Van's article on flutter that I had read many, many moons ago. (See >>>> http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf) >>>> >>>> I also reviewed the RV-10 v-speeds published by Vans in the flight >>>> test doc after reading he flutter document. In particular I was >>>> surprised to note that the Vne published by Vans of 230 mph / 200 >>>> Kts was TAS and not IAS. Many of the POH docs available on line >>>> quote a 200 KIAS value for Vne which, at higher altitudes, could >>>> lead to a reduced flutter safety margin. >>>> >>>> I am assuming that all the other V speeds should be KIAS and not >>>> KTAS not that there would be much of a difference except perhaps >>>> for the max maneuvering speed / max structural cruise speed. >>>> >>>> Is this correct or am I missing something here? >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> Les >>>> >>>> Inquiring minds really need to know. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Read this topic online here: >>>> >>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445292#445292 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> No virus found in this message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> 07/28/15 >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> 07/28/15 >> >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 07/28/15 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
Subject: Re: V Speeds
Date: Jul 28, 2015
It's my understanding that Vne should be in Calibrated Airspeed, which is ha rd to come by and is somewhere between IAS and TAS, so to be conservative, V an's has used TAS as the Vne number. As was mentioned, certified airplanes probably have the safety margin and co nversions between CAS and IAS to use IAS for Vne. The "coffin corner" issue probably couldn't be approached without a high pow er turbine. I doubt even a turbocharger could get it close unless maybe if i t was a big turbo or set of turbos with inter coolers. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse(at)saintaviation.com C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 28, 2015, at 11:55 AM, Berck E. Nash wrote: > > Close, but some corrections: For certified airplanes, Vne is an indicated a irspeed limit. In certified planes, you can safely dump the nose up to redl ine on the airspeed indicator and not worry about flutter. The margins are s uch that your true airspeed at Vne (indicated) are within limits even at the service ceiling. > > An RV-10 is not a certified plane, and Van's has kindly specified a Vne in true airspeed so that we know where the margins are, rather than limiting u s to an indicated limit. > > Now, "coffin's corner" is an entirely different situation. You can not ge t anywhere near "coffin's corner" in an RV-10. Coffins corner means that yo u're flying in a very narrow range between a stall and an overspeed. At 21, 000 ft, you're going to stall at somewhere around 60mph IAS. Your maximum s afe speed (230mph TAS) is at worst around 160mph on a very hot day. That gi ves you a 100mph margin between a stall and an overspeed condition. Not a c orner at all--that's a lot of margin. Coffin's corner only really applies t o jets. Most of the jets I've flown have somewhere around 10-20 knot spread between stall and overspeed at their service ceiling. > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: V Speeds
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Jul 28, 2015
Calibrated airspeed is the same as indicated airspeed, if there are no instrument or pitot-static errors. Normally certified aircraft use CAS (or IAS) to specify Vne because this information is available to the pilot. Many airplanes do not display TAS. I can only imagine how few pilots would pull out an E6B as they nose over in a dive, to calculate TAS from CAS. I am also disappointed that Vans has chosen a very unorthodox approach in specifying Vne in TAS, contrary to what most pilots were taught. I would really like to know: is this number derived solely from ground vibration tests? Did Vans test-dive the aircraft, and if so to what speed, and what altitude? -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445322#445322 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bonding fiberglass to plexiglass
From: "rvdave" <rv610dave(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 28, 2015
After reading up a little on the G Flex I think I will try it over the plex/ fiberglass intersection, seems made more for dissimilar material bond. Thanks -------- Dave Ford RV6 for sale RV10 building Cadillac, MI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445323#445323 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2015
Subject: Re: V Speeds
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
I think Vans stated Vne as a TAS because it is based on the design flutter speed, which IS a TAS, 200 kts or 230 mph for the -10. Flutter happens based on the speed of the molecules going past the control surface and what harmonics that induces in the control surface. Indicated is derived from the pressure the molecules exert on the pitot tube, and thinner air is more compressible so IAS goes down as altitude goes up. As the manufacturer, you can either translate that TAS back to an indicated airspeed, plus a fudge factor to account for density altitude differences, or, if you have an EFIS, let it displace TAS as supplemental info and input your Vne as a TAS. I think I will still subtract 5 kts as a safety margin, in case the elevator or ailerons might flutter at lower speed with some bird droppings or frost or whatever. On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 5:59 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > Calibrated airspeed is the same as indicated airspeed, if there are no > instrument or pitot-static errors. > Normally certified aircraft use CAS (or IAS) to specify Vne because this > information is available to the pilot. Many airplanes do not display TAS. I > can only imagine how few pilots would pull out an E6B as they nose over in > a dive, to calculate TAS from CAS. > I am also disappointed that Vans has chosen a very unorthodox approach in > specifying Vne in TAS, contrary to what most pilots were taught. > I would really like to know: is this number derived solely from ground > vibration tests? Did Vans test-dive the aircraft, and if so to what speed, > and what altitude? > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: V Speeds
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Jul 28, 2015
[quote="Kelly McMullen"]I think Vans stated Vne as a TAS because it is based on the design flutter speed, which IS a TAS, 200 kts or 230 mph for the -10. Flutter happens based on the speed of the molecules going past the control surface and what harmonics that induces in the control surface. Indicated is derived from the pressure the molecules exert on the pitot tube, and thinner air is more compressible so IAS goes down as altitude goes up. As the manufacturer, you can either translate that TAS back to an indicated airspeed, plus a fudge factor to account for density altitude differences, or, if you have an EFIS, let it displace TAS as supplemental info and input your Vne as a TAS. I think I will still subtract 5 kts as a safety margin, in case the elevator or ailerons might flutter at lower speed with some bird droppings or frost or whatever. On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 5:59 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > Calibrated airspeed is the same as indicated airspeed, if there are no instrument or pitot-static errors. > Normally certified aircraft use CAS (or IAS) to specify Vne because this information is available to the pilot. Many airplanes do not display TAS. I can only imagine how few pilots would pull out an E6B as they nose over in a dive, to calculate TAS from CAS. > I am also disappointed that Vans has chosen a very unorthodox approach in specifying Vne in TAS, contrary to what most pilots were taught. > I would really like to know: is this number derived solely from ground vibration tests? Did Vans test-dive the aircraft, and if so to what speed, and what altitude? > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > [b] If only the world was this simple. There are many different flutter modes possible. And they scale differently. For some the onset of flutter depends only on TAS. For others, the onset depends on the product of TAS and the square root of density - indicated airspeed. Still other modes have a density-airspeed scaling which is in between these two. And which mode is excited at any given time depends on the stiffness of the airframe part involved, etc. It really is as much art as science. But to say only TAS is important is an over simplification. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445325#445325 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: V Speeds
From: Alan Mekler MD <amekler(at)metrocast.net>
Date: Jul 29, 2015
Has anyone seen a TAS close to 200 kts at higher altitudes? I typically fly at less than 10,000 feet and see TAS at 170 kts. A descent with power on could easily exceed 200 kts TAS. Alan > On Jul 29, 2015, at 2:00 AM, Bob Turner wrote: > > > [quote="Kelly McMullen"]I think Vans stated Vne as a TAS because it is based on the design flutter speed, which IS a TAS, 200 kts or 230 mph for the -10. Flutter happens based on the speed of the molecules going past the control surface and what harmonics that induces in the control surface. Indicated is derived from the pressure the molecules exert on the pitot tube, and thinner air is more compressible so IAS goes down as altitude goes up. > > As the manufacturer, you can either translate that TAS back to an indicated airspeed, plus a fudge factor to account for density altitude differences, or, if you have an EFIS, let it displace TAS as supplemental info and input your Vne as a TAS. I think I will still subtract 5 kts as a safety margin, in case the elevator or ailerons might flutter at lower speed with some bird droppings or frost or whatever. > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 5:59 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > >> >> Calibrated airspeed is the same as indicated airspeed, if there are no instrument or pitot-static errors. >> Normally certified aircraft use CAS (or IAS) to specify Vne because this information is available to the pilot. Many airplanes do not display TAS. I can only imagine how few pilots would pull out an E6B as they nose over in a dive, to calculate TAS from CAS. >> I am also disappointed that Vans has chosen a very unorthodox approach in specifying Vne in TAS, contrary to what most pilots were taught. >> I would really like to know: is this number derived solely from ground vibration tests? Did Vans test-dive the aircraft, and if so to what speed, and what altitude? >> >> -------- >> Bob Turner >> RV-10 QB >> >> [b] > > > If only the world was this simple. There are many different flutter modes possible. And they scale differently. For some the onset of flutter depends only on TAS. For others, the onset depends on the product of TAS and the square root of density - indicated airspeed. Still other modes have a density-airspeed scaling which is in between these two. And which mode is excited at any given time depends on the stiffness of the airframe part involved, etc. It really is as much art as science. But to say only TAS is important is an over simplification. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445325#445325 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2015
Subject: Re: V Speeds
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
What is simple is that Vans has provided what they state was their design flutter speed, as a limitation that should not be exceeded. Only if you want to play test pilot, with parachute, quick release door (oh wait, we already have that), recovery chute, etc and go do some dive testing................or if you are an aeronautical engineer and can get the same data that Vans used to re-evaluate their calculations, we have no way to further evaluate that number or to even decide how closely we should approach that number. We only know it is a published number, in TAS that Vans strongly recommends not exceeding. I suppose another aeronautical engineer could design some new flight controls with a higher design value, publish some plans or sell completed control surfaces, but we don't have that situation today. On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 11:00 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > > If only the world was this simple. There are many different flutter modes > possible. And they scale differently. For some the onset of flutter depends > only on TAS. For others, the onset depends on the product of TAS and the > square root of density - indicated airspeed. Still other modes have a > density-airspeed scaling which is in between these two. And which mode is > excited at any given time depends on the stiffness of the airframe part > involved, etc. It really is as much art as science. But to say only TAS is > important is an over simplification. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445325#445325 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: V Speeds
From: "kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jul 29, 2015
Hmmm So my plan is to set my IAS limit to about 170 KIAS on the EFIS. At 10k this translates to about 201 KTAS give or take. Higher than that I'll keep on eye on the KTAS shown on the EFIS. Lower that that and it is a non-issue as I will normally be well below the limit. I don't plan to tempt fate by messing with the flutter gods. They sound vengeful. As a side note, and as I mentioned in my original post, there are a lots of docs quoting the RV10 Vne as 200 KIAS and not 200 KTAS. This is a big difference. I guess this only goes to show we had better be careful about what we take as gospel from the internet. Cheers Les Kelly McMullen wrote: > What is simple is that Vans has provided what they state was their design flutter speed, as a limitation that should not be exceeded. Only if you want to play test pilot, with parachute, quick release door (oh wait, we already have that), recovery chute, etc and go do some dive testing................or if you are an aeronautical engineer and can get the same data that Vans used to re-evaluate their calculations, we have no way to further evaluate that number or to even decide how closely we should approach that number. We only know it is a published number, in TAS that Vans strongly recommends not exceeding. > > I suppose another aeronautical engineer could design some new flight controls with a higher design value, publish some plans or sell completed control surfaces, but we don't have that situation today. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445325#445325 (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445325#445325) > > > > > [b] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445342#445342 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2015
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Signs of corrosion on tail cone
I'm beginning to see signs of corrosion between the top skin and the side skins of my tailcone. The corrosion is happening underneath the paint. Inside the tailcone there are a few 'wisps' of grayish corrosion coming up from the same joint which is riveted to the angle longerons. Anyone else experiencing this? What are you finding, what have you done? Plane is hangared except when traveling and only occassionally sees salt air - and I wash it down after each encounter. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Signs of corrosion on tail cone
From: Marcus Cooper <cooprv7(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jul 30, 2015
Im not sure if this will help with corrosion already there, but I sprayed the tailbone with Corrosion X and the film is still there after 7 years and 720 hours. I appreciate you bringing this up though as it wouldnt hurt to apply again. One gotcha, do NOT apply this until after you paint your airplane, otherwise it will be a bear to get the paint to adhere properly. Marcus > On Jul 30, 2015, at 12:05 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > > > I'm beginning to see signs of corrosion between the top skin and the side skins of my tailcone. The corrosion is happening underneath the paint. Inside the tailcone there are a few 'wisps' of grayish corrosion coming up from the same joint which is riveted to the angle longerons. > > Anyone else experiencing this? What are you finding, what have you done? > > Plane is hangared except when traveling and only occassionally sees salt air - and I wash it down after each encounter. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Signs of corrosion on tail cone
Date: Jul 29, 2015
Is this a quick build? Carl > On Jul 29, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Bill Watson wrote: > > > I'm beginning to see signs of corrosion between the top skin and the side skins of my tailcone. The corrosion is happening underneath the paint. Inside the tailcone there are a few 'wisps' of grayish corrosion coming up from the same joint which is riveted to the angle longerons. > > Anyone else experiencing this? What are you finding, what have you done? > > Plane is hangared except when traveling and only occassionally sees salt air - and I wash it down after each encounter. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2015
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Signs of corrosion on tail cone
Yes, but I build the tailcone. No relationship between the two I would think. On 7/29/2015 6:11 PM, Carl Froehlich wrote: > > Is this a quick build? > > Carl > > >> On Jul 29, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Bill Watson wrote: >> >> >> I'm beginning to see signs of corrosion between the top skin and the side skins of my tailcone. The corrosion is happening underneath the paint. Inside the tailcone there are a few 'wisps' of grayish corrosion coming up from the same joint which is riveted to the angle longerons. >> >> Anyone else experiencing this? What are you finding, what have you done? >> >> Plane is hangared except when traveling and only occassionally sees salt air - and I wash it down after each encounter. >> >> >> >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Crack with Door Latch Fit
From: "mhealydds" <mhealydds(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 29, 2015
Had and accident tonight while fitting door pin guides for RV-10 door. While testing door latch fit, the front pin was not engaged as it should have been and slipped to side skin and torn it as shown in pictures. Any thoughts on a fix - quite disappointed in myself at the moment..... Matt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445394#445394 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1161_196.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: V Speeds
From: "Rocketman1988" <Rocketman(at)etczone.com>
Date: Jul 29, 2015
Y'all were talking about the coffin corner and thought you might like to have a visual. In this photo, the yellow bars on the speed tape represent Mach buffet above and stall below the indicated airspeed. We were not at our altitude ceiling, but as you climb, the two yellow bars get closer to the airspeed. At our ceiling, there is only a few knots above or below. Also note the blue PLI (pitch limit indicator). It is only a few degrees above the current pitch in level flight. That PLI it where the stick shaker activates... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445396#445396 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0168_478.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Crack with Door Latch Fit
Date: Jul 29, 2015
I feel for you but I think you'll be just fine because that area usually gets faired over with glass to smooth the transition between the cabin top and the airframe. I would clean it up so its burr free and flat, then plan on filling it with flox, and then fair it into the airframe with balloons. It should hide that transition. Your biggest concern is making sure it's burr-free so you won't have any future cracking. (Though it looks to be stop drilled pretty well with that rivet). Just my thoughts on it. I think you'll be A-OK at the end of the project. Phil Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 29, 2015, at 8:50 PM, mhealydds wrote: > > > Had and accident tonight while fitting door pin guides for RV-10 door. While testing door latch fit, the front pin was not engaged as it should have been and slipped to side skin and torn it as shown in pictures. Any thoughts on a fix - quite disappointed in myself at the moment..... > > Matt > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445394#445394 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1161_196.jpg > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David" <dlm34077(at)cox.net>
Subject: airworthiness documentation
Date: Jul 29, 2015
What documents support airworthiness on an experimental aircraft? On the trip to KOSH I had a bird strike on landing (KDUX) in the right fuselage-wing intersection fairing. I ended up with a bit of stretched aluminum. Today I encountered the insurance adjustor who wanted to see the aircraft logbooks, my logbook (only number 6), my licenses (plus medical), the registration and the airworthiness paper. I had an aircraft log where the DAR had inspected and signed as airworthy and my signature signed for completion of phase one. Also in the aircraft documents I found an (DAR signed) 8130-6 and a checklist by the DAR again declaring it airworthy. All signatures were dated 4/1/2008. The online aircraft records also an airworthiness date of 4/1/2008. The insurance adjustor seemed to think that a separate card was required as is required for standard airworthiness. Since nobody I called seemed to know, I started taking opinions. Two IAs offered that "I don' know" and "card is definitely not required". EAA said it was definitely required but when the 20 something started to lecture me on ARROW I wrote off his opinion. Does anyone flying an RV10 have a post card from the FAA with airworthiness on it? It has been my understanding that the operating limitations and the logbook signoffs were sufficient for E-AB. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 29, 2015
Subject: Re: Crack with Door Latch Fit
No big deal. I would drill out two rivets, make an .063 plate to span the three rivets adjacent to the pin block, and cover it up. Looks like the tear goes right to the rivet hole so you don't even need to stop-drill it. It may not be the last time that happens--it's happened to me a few times. As you see more 10s you'll see a lot of people addressed that problem. A stout doubler will keep a the tear from happening again. Another thing you might strongly consider is replacing the teflon guide blocks with aluminum pieces, same dimensions. --Dave On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 6:50 PM, mhealydds wrote: > > Had and accident tonight while fitting door pin guides for RV-10 door. > While testing door latch fit, the front pin was not engaged as it should > have been and slipped to side skin and torn it as shown in pictures. Any > thoughts on a fix - quite disappointed in myself at the moment..... > > Matt > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445394#445394 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1161_196.jpg > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: airworthiness documentation
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net>
Date: Jul 29, 2015
On 7/29/2015 10:21 PM, David wrote: > Today I encountered the insurance adjustor who wanted to see the > aircraft logbooks, my logbook (only number 6), my licenses (plus > medical), the registration and the airworthiness paper. I think he wants to see the postcard sized paper that is your Airworthiness Certificate and the associated Operating Limitations (mine are about 3 pages of typed sheets of paper). Both of these are required to be in the aircraft and visible, so most end up putting them in a clear plastic pouch of sorts and attaching them to the inside of the fuselage wall somewhere. -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV - EAA Chapter 87 Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 29, 2015
Subject: Re: airworthiness documentation
The DAR should have issued a Certificate of Airworthiness. It's pink (fades to gray...), same size as the standard cert. You can get a replacement from the FSDO. Fill out a form and they'll send you one. --Dave On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 7:21 PM, David wrote: > What documents support airworthiness on an experimental aircraft? On the > trip to KOSH I had a bird strike on landing (KDUX) in the right > fuselage-wing intersection fairing. I ended up with a bit of stretched > aluminum. Today I encountered the insurance adjustor who wanted to see th e > aircraft logbooks, my logbook (only number 6), my licenses (plus medical) , > the registration and the airworthiness paper. I had an aircraft log where > the DAR had inspected and signed as airworthy and my signature signed for > completion of phase one. Also in the aircraft documents I found an (DAR > signed) 8130-6 and a checklist by the DAR again declaring it airworthy. A ll > signatures were dated 4/1/2008. The online aircraft records also an > airworthiness date of 4/1/2008. The insurance adjustor seemed to think th at > a separate card was required as is required for standard airworthiness. > Since nobody I called seemed to know, I started taking opinions. Two IAs > offered that =9CI don=99 know=9D and =9Ccard is d efinitely not required=9D. EAA said > it was definitely required but when the 20 something started to lecture m e > on ARROW I wrote off his opinion. Does anyone flying an RV10 have a post > card from the FAA with airworthiness on it? It has been my understanding > that the operating limitations and the logbook signoffs were sufficient f or > E-AB. > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > * > =========== onics.com/Navigator?RV10-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: airworthiness documentation
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net>
Date: Jul 29, 2015
On 7/29/2015 10:41 PM, Dj Merrill wrote: > the postcard sized paper that is your Airworthiness Certificate Here is a sample image that I found: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://tighar.org/smf/index.php%253Faction%253Ddlattach%253Btopic%253D524.0%253Battach%253D327&imgrefurl=https://tighar.org/smf/index.php?topic%3D524.0&h=481&w=741&tbnid=Pwv4VHjs41Zd5M:&docid=D7j3wIQ9I-VeoM&ei=W4-5VcCkAcfB-gGmz4WYCg&tbm=isch&ved=0CB0QMygAMABqFQoTCIC-ut3qgccCFcegPgodpmcBow If you don't have this in your plane then it technically isn't airworthy. -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV - EAA Chapter 87 Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Beyer <fehdxlbb(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: airworthiness documentation
Date: Jul 29, 2015
Sorry to hear about the damage. Yes you need an airworthiness certificate=94not the 8130-6 but an 8130-7. You also need your operating limitations (a few page 8-1/2 x 11 sized document) . It won=99t be a standard airworthiness certificate, but a special airworthiness certificate with an experimental category. Attached is an example, albeit it from 1980, it=99s still the same today. I blacked out the info to protect the guilty. One other thing to consider is the registration expiration =94 if it was registered in April 2008, the five year term may have been up a couple months ago. Best, -Jim > On Jul 29, 2015, at 9:21 PM, David wrote: > > What documents support airworthiness on an experimental aircraft? On the trip to KOSH I had a bird strike on landing (KDUX) in the right fuselage-wing intersection fairing. I ended up with a bit of stretched aluminum. Today I encountered the insurance adjustor who wanted to see the aircraft logbooks, my logbook (only number 6), my licenses (plus medical), the registration and the airworthiness paper. I had an aircraft log where the DAR had inspected and signed as airworthy and my signature signed for completion of phase one. Also in the aircraft documents I found an (DAR signed) 8130-6 and a checklist by the DAR again declaring it airworthy. All signatures were dated 4/1/2008. The online aircraft records also an airworthiness date of 4/1/2008. The insurance adjustor seemed to think that a separate card was required as is required for standard airworthiness. Since nobody I called seemed to know, I started taking opinions. Two IAs offered that =9CI don =99 know=9D and =9Ccard is definitely not required=9D. EAA said it was definitely required but when the 20 something started to lecture me on ARROW I wrote off his opinion. Does anyone flying an RV10 have a post card from the FAA with airworthiness on it? It has been my understanding that the operating limitations and the logbook signoffs were sufficient for E-AB. > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
Subject: Re: airworthiness documentation
Date: Jul 30, 2015
The airplane must have a Special Airworthiness Certificate (peach colored ca rd) and Operating Limitations (Phase I and Phase II flit restrictions) as we ll as the other documents you mentioned you have. It obviously had one, so i t would be a matter of finding it or getting a new one from the local FSDO. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. 352-427-0285 jesse(at)saintaviation.com Sent from my iPad > On Jul 29, 2015, at 10:21 PM, David wrote: > > What documents support airworthiness on an experimental aircraft? On the t rip to KOSH I had a bird strike on landing (KDUX) in the right fuselage-wing intersection fairing. I ended up with a bit of stretched aluminum. Today I e ncountered the insurance adjustor who wanted to see the aircraft logbooks, m y logbook (only number 6), my licenses (plus medical), the registration and t he airworthiness paper. I had an aircraft log where the DAR had inspected an d signed as airworthy and my signature signed for completion of phase one. A lso in the aircraft documents I found an (DAR signed) 8130-6 and a checklist by the DAR again declaring it airworthy. All signatures were dated 4/1/2008 . The online aircraft records also an airworthiness date of 4/1/2008. The in surance adjustor seemed to think that a separate card was required as is req uired for standard airworthiness. Since nobody I called seemed to know, I st arted taking opinions. Two IAs offered that =9CI don=99 know =9D and =9Ccard is definitely not required=9D. EAA said it was d efinitely required but when the 20 something started to lecture me on ARROW I wrote off his opinion. Does anyone flying an RV10 have a post card from the FAA with airworthiness on it? It has been my understanding that the operati ng limitations and the logbook signoffs were sufficient for E-AB. > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 30, 2015
Subject: Re: Signs of corrosion on tail cone
From: John Cox <rv10pro(at)gmail.com>
#1 Surface preparation. Many on this list talk of Acetone or Alcohol cleaning. Aluminum begins Aluminum Oxide within an hour of scotchbrighting. Doing the work in a high humidity environment or an area under the influence of Salt vapor can impact the surface prep in short order. Correction: do an evaporation test of the solvent used on a piece of clear glass and see if after evaporation, deposits form. Prime within 15 minutes of scotchbrighting never hours or days. #2 Galvanic action by use of the airframe as the ground path from adjacent electrical circuits is another. Run a separate return path from lighting components forward to a more substantial frame member not in contact with exterior skin if using single wire power runs. #3 Use of chemicals which promotes Hydrolysis. The old Simple Green before they reformulated Aviation grade was notorious. Wicking action is best reduced by wet sealing the two skins with a roller of thin proseal. RTV is not a cure all. #4 "Faying action" between two close sheet metal items attached together wick most alkaline cleaners into the joints mentioned. Clear rinse the joints with de-ionized water and pay particular attention to the areas showing signs. Oxidation once started must be removed. The cause corrected and the treated skin recoated with an Alodine or similar treatment. It is remotely possible the primer had some impact on the outcome. Least desireable Corrective Action: remove the skin and treat before the corrosion reaches 10% in skin depth. Note: Cessna had a very large batch of aircraft twenty years ago with Filiform corrosion which showed YEARS later. The research found they were parking the prepped aircraft outside overnight provided Acid Rain vapor to condense on the material. The skin was dry and "Clean" but the acid residual began working between the skin and final coats - after application. Only solution, soda blast, properly reprep the surface and reapply a corrective topcoat. The type of corrosion found helps determine the cause and corrective action. Just shooting blind on a sensitive issue. Good Luck with the solution. John C. #40600 On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 6:49 PM, Bill Watson wrote: > > Yes, but I build the tailcone. No relationship between the two I would > think. > > On 7/29/2015 6:11 PM, Carl Froehlich wrote: > >> carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net> >> >> Is this a quick build? >> >> Carl >> >> >> >> On Jul 29, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Bill Watson wrote: >>> >>> >>> I'm beginning to see signs of corrosion between the top skin and the >>> side skins of my tailcone. The corrosion is happening underneath the >>> paint. Inside the tailcone there are a few 'wisps' of grayish corrosion >>> coming up from the same joint which is riveted to the angle longerons. >>> >>> Anyone else experiencing this? What are you finding, what have you done? >>> >>> Plane is hangared except when traveling and only occassionally sees salt >>> air - and I wash it down after each encounter. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Signs of corrosion on tail cone
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Jul 30, 2015
I will agree with all John wrote except the electrical ground issue. Given that type certified aircraft from the end of WWII on have used the airframe as a ground path, you would expect to see such problems if it were an issue, within say 30-40 years. Hasn't happened. My current aircraft is 50 yrs old. Not one bit of corrosion around any of the power consuming items that are grounded to the airframe, nor the ground attach points. IIRC Bob Nuckolls of AeroElectric connection says only electronics need central grounding, NOT lights, pitot heat, and other high current devices. Given he was the expert for Cessna, then Beech, I tend to listen to his opinions. I will not that where Vans uses aluminum angle for longerons, etc. that aluminum angle is NOT Alclad, and requires some form of primer or anodizing. I don't believe any of the material Vans supplies has any primer, except in the quick build components, and I'm not sure they do anything between the skins and the longerons. Heck, on mine they didn't even bother to countersink the longerons where they attached to dimpled skins. On 7/30/2015 7:08 AM, John Cox wrote: > #1 Surface preparation. Many on this list talk of Acetone or Alcohol > cleaning. Aluminum begins Aluminum Oxide within an hour of > scotchbrighting. Doing the work in a high humidity environment or an > area under the influence of Salt vapor can impact the surface prep in > short order. Correction: do an evaporation test of the solvent used > on a piece of clear glass and see if after evaporation, deposits > form. Prime within 15 minutes of scotchbrighting never hours or days. > > #2 Galvanic action by use of the airframe as the ground path from > adjacent electrical circuits is another. Run a separate return path > from lighting components forward to a more substantial frame member > not in contact with exterior skin if using single wire power runs. > > #3 Use of chemicals which promotes Hydrolysis. The old Simple Green > before they reformulated Aviation grade was notorious. Wicking action > is best reduced by wet sealing the two skins with a roller of thin > proseal. RTV is not a cure all. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 30, 2015
Subject: Re: Signs of corrosion on tail cone
From: John Cox <rv10pro(at)gmail.com>
Improper surface prep can and does lead to issues. Did someone state Van's preps parts?? Not the company I know so well. I will assume Bill did everything "Top Notch". Washing of aircraft is another issue not discussed on this forum, yet. Can give examples of electrolysis doing corrosion damage but was not intending to counter the disciples of Mr. Nuckholls. SFAR88 has manufacturers rethinking due to FAA mandate the issues of electric current beyond electronics. On our airliners which get 4400-4500 hours per year, the damage is accelerated. Just a perspective. Maybe Acid Rain can be blamed since Mr Nuckoll's was not retired at the time at Cessna when the filliform was such a large issue. Not a supporter of Mr. Scott's mantra "Just Build It". Build it safe, enjoy flight, live LONG. jc On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 7:38 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > I will agree with all John wrote except the electrical ground issue. Given > that type certified aircraft from the end of WWII on have used the airframe > as a ground path, you would expect to see such problems if it were an > issue, within say 30-40 years. Hasn't happened. My current aircraft is 50 > yrs old. Not one bit of corrosion around any of the power consuming items > that are grounded to the airframe, nor the ground attach points. IIRC Bob > Nuckolls of AeroElectric connection says only electronics need central > grounding, NOT lights, pitot heat, and other high current devices. Given he > was the expert for Cessna, then Beech, I tend to listen to his opinions. > I will not that where Vans uses aluminum angle for longerons, etc. that > aluminum angle is NOT Alclad, and requires some form of primer or > anodizing. I don't believe any of the material Vans supplies has any > primer, except in the quick build components, and I'm not sure they do > anything between the skins and the longerons. Heck, on mine they didn't > even bother to countersink the longerons where they attached to dimpled > skins. > > On 7/30/2015 7:08 AM, John Cox wrote: > >> #1 Surface preparation. Many on this list talk of Acetone or Alcohol >> cleaning. Aluminum begins Aluminum Oxide within an hour of >> scotchbrighting. Doing the work in a high humidity environment or an area >> under the influence of Salt vapor can impact the surface prep in short >> order. Correction: do an evaporation test of the solvent used on a piece >> of clear glass and see if after evaporation, deposits form. Prime within >> 15 minutes of scotchbrighting never hours or days. >> >> #2 Galvanic action by use of the airframe as the ground path from >> adjacent electrical circuits is another. Run a separate return path from >> lighting components forward to a more substantial frame member not in >> contact with exterior skin if using single wire power runs. >> >> #3 Use of chemicals which promotes Hydrolysis. The old Simple Green >> before they reformulated Aviation grade was notorious. Wicking action is >> best reduced by wet sealing the two skins with a roller of thin proseal. >> RTV is not a cure all. >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Signs of corrosion on tail cone
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Jul 30, 2015
Vans quick build components do get primer, I believe AFTER they are assembled. Cessna's corrosion had nothing to do with electrics. It had to do with your mention of the overnight outside AND they eliminated one of the two components of the primer they were using. It was supposed to be done on two phases, not a single coat. On 7/30/2015 8:09 AM, John Cox wrote: > Improper surface prep can and does lead to issues. Did someone state > Van's preps parts?? Not the company I know so well. I will assume > Bill did everything "Top Notch". Washing of aircraft is another issue > not discussed on this forum, yet. > > Can give examples of electrolysis doing corrosion damage but was not > intending to counter the disciples of Mr. Nuckholls. SFAR88 has > manufacturers rethinking due to FAA mandate the issues of electric > current beyond electronics. On our airliners which get 4400-4500 > hours per year, the damage is accelerated. Just a perspective. Maybe > Acid Rain can be blamed since Mr Nuckoll's was not retired at the time > at Cessna when the filliform was such a large issue. > > Not a supporter of Mr. Scott's mantra "Just Build It". Build it safe, > enjoy flight, live LONG. > jc > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 7:38 AM, Kelly McMullen > wrote: > > > > > I will agree with all John wrote except the electrical ground > issue. Given that type certified aircraft from the end of WWII on > have used the airframe as a ground path, you would expect to see > such problems if it were an issue, within say 30-40 years. Hasn't > happened. My current aircraft is 50 yrs old. Not one bit of > corrosion around any of the power consuming items that are > grounded to the airframe, nor the ground attach points. IIRC Bob > Nuckolls of AeroElectric connection says only electronics need > central grounding, NOT lights, pitot heat, and other high current > devices. Given he was the expert for Cessna, then Beech, I tend to > listen to his opinions. > I will not that where Vans uses aluminum angle for longerons, etc. > that aluminum angle is NOT Alclad, and requires some form of > primer or anodizing. I don't believe any of the material Vans > supplies has any primer, except in the quick build components, and > I'm not sure they do anything between the skins and the longerons. > Heck, on mine they didn't even bother to countersink the longerons > where they attached to dimpled skins. > > On 7/30/2015 7:08 AM, John Cox wrote: > > #1 Surface preparation. Many on this list talk of Acetone or > Alcohol cleaning. Aluminum begins Aluminum Oxide within an > hour of scotchbrighting. Doing the work in a high humidity > environment or an area under the influence of Salt vapor can > impact the surface prep in short order. Correction: do an > evaporation test of the solvent used on a piece of clear glass > and see if after evaporation, deposits form. Prime within 15 > minutes of scotchbrighting never hours or days. > > #2 Galvanic action by use of the airframe as the ground path > from adjacent electrical circuits is another. Run a separate > return path from lighting components forward to a more > substantial frame member not in contact with exterior skin if > using single wire power runs. > > #3 Use of chemicals which promotes Hydrolysis. The old Simple > Green before they reformulated Aviation grade was notorious. > Wicking action is best reduced by wet sealing the two skins > with a roller of thin proseal. RTV is not a cure all. > > > ========== > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 30, 2015
From: Bruce Johnson <bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Crack with Door Latch Fit
Don't beat yourself up, we've all had those little bumps in the road. I had something similar and after removing the rivet used JB weld and re riveted . Might not have been the best fix but you cannot tell it ever happened. af ter paint.=C2-God Bless America (please) =C2-:) Bruce On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 7:50 PM, David Saylor wrote: No big deal.=C2- I would drill out two rivets, make an .063 plate to spa n the three rivets adjacent to the pin block, and cover it up.=C2- Looks like the tear goes right to the rivet hole so you don't even need to stop-d rill it. It may not be the last time that happens--it's happened to me a few times. =C2- As you see more 10s you'll see a lot of people addressed that proble m. A stout doubler will keep a the tear from happening again. Another thing you might strongly consider is replacing the teflon guide blo cks with aluminum pieces, same dimensions. --Dave On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 6:50 PM, mhealydds wrote: Had and accident tonight while fitting door pin guides for RV-10 door. Whil e testing door latch fit, the front pin was not engaged as it should have b een and slipped to side skin and torn it as shown in pictures. Any thoughts on a fix - quite disappointed in myself at the moment..... Matt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445394#445394 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1161_196.jpg -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Naviga tor?RV10-List FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com b Site - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David" <dlm34077(at)cox.net>
Subject: RV10 fork and wheel
Date: Jul 30, 2015
During the days that I had a flying C177RG, flying Glastar and an RV10 under construction, we also planned to use the Glastar on unimproved fields. I acquired an RV10 nose fork, the correct Matco nose wheel (not the vans 501.25 but the 511.25), axle and RV10 spacer kit. We also manufactured a sleeve so that the fork would fit the smaller nose gear legs of the Glastar and two place RVs. As an aside we put a metric tire on the Cleveland Glastar mains and had a Glastar with about 4" more ground/prop clearance. Since the Glastar was sold and the new owner preferred the original wheel/pant installation, I have the complete fork/nose wheel combination for sale. Some of the new builders may be interested in the correct Matco wheel, axle and spacers. The vans supplied SS sleeves to hold the nose wheel bearings in place so that the wheel rotates on the bearings last but a few hours, then the sleeves start rotating and "eat" the aluminum fork. I saw one RV10 purchased aircraft whose owner wondered why he had such a tough time steering while I looked to find the nose wheel oscillating back and forth at about a 30 degree angle. Anyway the fork/wheel/axle/bearings/spacer/sleeve is available. Contact me by direct email if interested. A picture is available on request. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Signs of corrosion on tail cone
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Aug 01, 2015
I'd suggest getting a spray can of Corrosion X or ACF-50 and spraying along that joint and the angle. That stuff penetrates everywhere. It will not repair damage done but may stop or slow further damage. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445481#445481 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Albert" <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: Flap Reflex
Date: Aug 01, 2015
On a long flight at 10,500' between CAG and INW it was so smooth I thought I would play around with the flaps. Kept droping them a bit at a time and it looks like I picked up about 5 kts with them down about 2 deg from the full up reflex position. What are others experience with this? Albert Gardner RV-10 N991RV Yuma, AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2015
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Signs of corrosion on tail cone
Thanks John, a lot of good stuff there! Looks like I have some form of filiform corrosion. I sure looks like 'something' leaked out from the seam after painting. I primed the tail feathers with epoxy primer, the tailcone with Dupont wash primer, finished off the QB kit with rattle can primer, I did not prime the angle longerons (!) The paint job included PreKote, epoxy primer and a Dupont Polyurethane. My plan of action looks like 1) mechanically remove paint where corrosion is evident, 2)remove corrosion, clean, (conversion?), 3) prime and paint. Then apply one of the penetrating corrosion protection products to the inside of the tail cone along the seam. On 7/30/2015 10:08 AM, John Cox wrote: > #1 Surface preparation. Many on this list talk of Acetone or Alcohol > cleaning. Aluminum begins Aluminum Oxide within an hour of > scotchbrighting. Doing the work in a high humidity environment or an > area under the influence of Salt vapor can impact the surface prep in > short order. Correction: do an evaporation test of the solvent used > on a piece of clear glass and see if after evaporation, deposits > form. Prime within 15 minutes of scotchbrighting never hours or days. > > #2 Galvanic action by use of the airframe as the ground path from > adjacent electrical circuits is another. Run a separate return path > from lighting components forward to a more substantial frame member > not in contact with exterior skin if using single wire power runs. > > #3 Use of chemicals which promotes Hydrolysis. The old Simple Green > before they reformulated Aviation grade was notorious. Wicking action > is best reduced by wet sealing the two skins with a roller of thin > proseal. RTV is not a cure all. > > #4 "Faying action" between two close sheet metal items attached > together wick most alkaline cleaners into the joints mentioned. Clear > rinse the joints with de-ionized water and pay particular attention to > the areas showing signs. Oxidation once started must be removed. The > cause corrected and the treated skin recoated with an Alodine or > similar treatment. It is remotely possible the primer had some impact > on the outcome. > > Least desireable Corrective Action: remove the skin and treat before > the corrosion reaches 10% in skin depth. > > Note: Cessna had a very large batch of aircraft twenty years ago with > Filiform corrosion which showed YEARS later. The research found they > were parking the prepped aircraft outside overnight provided Acid Rain > vapor to condense on the material. The skin was dry and "Clean" but > the acid residual began working between the skin and final coats - > after application. Only solution, soda blast, properly reprep the > surface and reapply a corrective topcoat. > > The type of corrosion found helps determine the cause and corrective > action. Just shooting blind on a sensitive issue. Good Luck with the > solution. > > John C. > #40600 > > On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 6:49 PM, Bill Watson > wrote: > > > > > Yes, but I build the tailcone. No relationship between the two I > would think. > > On 7/29/2015 6:11 PM, Carl Froehlich wrote: > > > > > Is this a quick build? > > Carl > > > On Jul 29, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Bill Watson > > wrote: > > > > > I'm beginning to see signs of corrosion between the top > skin and the side skins of my tailcone. The corrosion is > happening underneath the paint. Inside the tailcone there > are a few 'wisps' of grayish corrosion coming up from the > same joint which is riveted to the angle longerons. > > Anyone else experiencing this? What are you finding, what > have you done? > > Plane is hangared except when traveling and only > occassionally sees salt air - and I wash it down after > each encounter. > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > > > ========== > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > * > > > * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2015
From: Don McDonald <building_partner(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Flap Reflex
I've played with the flaps in cruise also... found similar.=C2- But it se ems like with most everything relating to the 10..... it depends..... on sp eed, power settings, wind direction, altitude, bp, what day of the week, or how many on board. I'm sure there's an altitude range that having the plan e in reflex provides the best result.... but I don't think it's above 8,000 feet. Don McDonaldJust moved in to our new airpark home in Pecan Plantation, Gran bury, Texas. From: Albert <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2015 1:20 PM Subject: RV10-List: Flap Reflex On a long flight at 10,500' between CAG and INW it was so=C2- smooth I=C2- thought I would play around with the fl aps. Kept droping them a bit at a time and it looks like I picked up about 5 kts with them down about 2 deg from the full up reflex position. What are others experience with this?Albert GardnerRV-10 N991RVYuma, AZ =C2- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Flap Reflex
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Aug 01, 2015
I tried going back and forth from full up (reflex) to first notch (in trail, or zero deg). 14500', density alt 16,000' LOP at 9 gal/hr, WOT, 2400 RPM, 159 KTAS 2 adults plus bags I couldn't see any difference in speed. Maybe next time I'll try an in between setting. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445494#445494 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2015
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Flap Reflex
I played with them too and recorded some numbers since lost. My conclusion was similar to Don's except I would have said "...I don't think it's above 10,000 feet". Between 7 and 9k where I spend most of my time, I use them 100% of the time in cruise. On 8/1/2015 4:54 PM, Don McDonald wrote: > I've played with the flaps in cruise also... found similar. But it > seems like with most everything relating to the 10..... it > depends..... on speed, power settings, wind direction, altitude, bp, > what day of the week, or how many on board. I'm sure there's an > altitude range that having the plane in reflex provides the best > result.... but I don't think it's above 8,000 feet. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rob Kermanj <flysrv10(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Geoff's door handle retrofit
Date: Aug 04, 2015
I recently installed one of Geoff=99s door handle http://www.aerosportproducts.com/low-profile_handles.htm <http://www.aerosportproducts.com/low-profile_handles.htm> and I am very pleased with the installation, fit and the quality. The product is of highest quality and a work of art, as you would expect from him. If you decide to install one, make sure the door skin is thin for the best fit. Email me if you need installation tips. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2015
Subject: Re: Geoff's door handle retrofit
From: John Trollinger <john(at)trollingers.com>
I just installed mine a few weeks ago. Sooo much nicer than the stock handles.. and to have the built in locks is great. John On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Rob Kermanj wrote: > I recently installed one of Geoff=99s door handle > http://www.aerosportproducts.com/low-profile_handles.htm and I am very > pleased with the installation, fit and the quality. > > The product is of highest quality and a work of art, as you would expect > from him. > > If you decide to install one, make sure the door skin is thin for the bes t > fit. Email me if you need installation tips. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2015
From: Bruce Johnson <bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Geoff's door handle retrofit
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: IO-540 mount ears nuts
From: Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com>
Date: Aug 05, 2015
Hi everyone. I got a Lycoming IO-540 for my RV-10 through Vans, and when it arrived the mounting ears were in a box, not installed on the engine. From what I've read in this message group, it seems that's typical. However, I haven't been able to find the nuts and washers required to mount them on the engine - they're not in the box the ears were in, nor have I found them anywhere else. Can anyone provide insight on where they found theirs when the engine arrived? Either I've just been unsuccessful at hide and seek, or they really are missing, in which case I'll have to sort out exactly what I need and get them. Thanks! Dan --- Dan Charrois President, Syzygy Research & Technology Phone: 780-961-2213 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Subject: IO-540 mount ears nuts
Date: Aug 05, 2015
They should be in the Lycoming crate - someplace. Look in the injector box and such. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Charrois Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 8:36 PM Subject: RV10-List: IO-540 mount ears nuts Hi everyone. I got a Lycoming IO-540 for my RV-10 through Vans, and when it arrived the mounting ears were in a box, not installed on the engine. From what I've read in this message group, it seems that's typical. However, I haven't been able to find the nuts and washers required to mount them on the engine - they're not in the box the ears were in, nor have I found them anywhere else. Can anyone provide insight on where they found theirs when the engine arrived? Either I've just been unsuccessful at hide and seek, or they really are missing, in which case I'll have to sort out exactly what I need and get them. Thanks! Dan --- Dan Charrois President, Syzygy Research & Technology Phone: 780-961-2213 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: IO-540 mount ears nuts
From: Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com>
Date: Aug 06, 2015
Bingo - I think you nailed it. I'd thought the hardware in there was for the injector, but it does appear as though nuts and washers matching the description of those I've seen mentioned earlier in this maillist for the mounting ears are in there - that must be them. Thanks! Dan > On 2015-Aug-05, at 7:57 PM, Carl Froehlich wrote: > > > They should be in the Lycoming crate - someplace. Look in the injector box > and such. > > Carl > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Charrois > Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 8:36 PM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: IO-540 mount ears nuts > > > Hi everyone. I got a Lycoming IO-540 for my RV-10 through Vans, and when it > arrived the mounting ears were in a box, not installed on the engine. From > what I've read in this message group, it seems that's typical. However, I > haven't been able to find the nuts and washers required to mount them on the > engine - they're not in the box the ears were in, nor have I found them > anywhere else. Can anyone provide insight on where they found theirs when > the engine arrived? Either I've just been unsuccessful at hide and seek, or > they really are missing, in which case I'll have to sort out exactly what I > need and get them. > > Thanks! > > Dan > --- > Dan Charrois > President, Syzygy Research & Technology > Phone: 780-961-2213 > > > > > > > > > > --- Dan Charrois President, Syzygy Research & Technology Phone: 780-961-2213 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: removing seat
From: "amekler" <amekler(at)metrocast.net>
Date: Aug 07, 2015
I need to remove my front seat back for a upholstery repair Can the seat back be removed or must I remove the whole seat? What is easiest? Alan ps does anyone have a schematic of the seat? Alan N668G 330 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445671#445671 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: removing seat
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu>
Date: Aug 07, 2015
I imagine it can be done either way, but I'd remove the whole seat. With a small modification (shorten the rail, or bevel the front slide on the seat) you can remove the seat without removing the flap cover. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445672#445672 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Subject: removing seat
Date: Aug 07, 2015
Don't even try to remove the seat back. Take the whole seat out. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of amekler Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 12:38 PM Subject: RV10-List: removing seat I need to remove my front seat back for a upholstery repair Can the seat back be removed or must I remove the whole seat? What is easiest? Alan ps does anyone have a schematic of the seat? Alan N668G 330 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445671#445671 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Geoff Combs" <g.combs(at)aerosportmodeling.com>
Subject: removing seat
Date: Aug 07, 2015
You can remove the upper back pretty easy. Roll your seat cover up about 6-8 inches and then there are 4 1/4-28 screws with Lock nuts remove these. Very easy. See photo They might be a little harder to get to while in the aircraft Geoff Combs -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Froehlich Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 1:18 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: removing seat --> Don't even try to remove the seat back. Take the whole seat out. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of amekler Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 12:38 PM Subject: RV10-List: removing seat I need to remove my front seat back for a upholstery repair Can the seat back be removed or must I remove the whole seat? What is easiest? Alan ps does anyone have a schematic of the seat? Alan N668G 330 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445671#445671 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: removing seat
From: Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Date: Aug 07, 2015
I beveled the fwd upper part of the nylon insert back about 1/2" all the way across (real thin at the fwd end) so the rear of the seat can be lifted to clear the flap cover. No need to shorten the rail. I tapped the mounting holes in the seat lock and used bolts to hold it in place. Lift the seat cushion up and a ratchet makes quick work of the bolts. You have to either remove the stop or the lock ..... Linn On 8/7/2015 1:08 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > I imagine it can be done either way, but I'd remove the whole seat. With a small modification (shorten the rail, or bevel the front slide on the seat) you can remove the seat without removing the flap cover. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445672#445672 > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alan Mekler MD <amekler(at)metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: removing seat
Date: Aug 08, 2015
Does the seat remove forward or rear? Alan Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 7, 2015, at 1:08 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > > I imagine it can be done either way, but I'd remove the whole seat. With a small modification (shorten the rail, or bevel the front slide on the seat) you can remove the seat without removing the flap cover. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445672#445672 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: removing seat
Date: Aug 08, 2015
Rear. You need to remove the seat stop spring pin for the seat to slide out. You need to unscrew and move the flap operator cover below the rear seat to get enough room for the seat to slide out of the rail. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Mekler MD Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 10:25 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: removing seat Does the seat remove forward or rear? Alan Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 7, 2015, at 1:08 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > > I imagine it can be done either way, but I'd remove the whole seat. With a small modification (shorten the rail, or bevel the front slide on the seat) you can remove the seat without removing the flap cover. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445672#445672 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: removing seat
From: Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com>
Date: Aug 08, 2015
From a previous answer ..... On 8/8/2015 10:47 AM, Carl Froehlich wrote: > > Rear. > > You need to remove the seat stop spring pin for the seat to slide out. I tapped the mounting holes in the seat lock bracket and used bolts to hold it in place. Lift the seat cushion up and a ratchet makes quick work of the bolts. > You need to unscrew and move the flap operator cover below the rear seat to > get enough room for the seat to slide out of the rail. I beveled the fwd upper part of the nylon insert back about 1/2" all the way across (real thin at the fwd end) so the rear of the seat rail can be lifted to clear the flap cover. Linn > > Carl > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Mekler MD > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 10:25 AM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: removing seat > > > Does the seat remove forward or rear? > Alan > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Aug 7, 2015, at 1:08 PM, Bob Turner wrote: >> >> >> I imagine it can be done either way, but I'd remove the whole seat. With a > small modification (shorten the rail, or bevel the front slide on the seat) > you can remove the seat without removing the flap cover. >> -------- >> Bob Turner >> RV-10 QB >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445672#445672 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Stick travel
From: "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com>
Date: Aug 11, 2015
I would like to limit my elevator down travel ever so slightly (about a 1/4 inch of stick travel.). I'd like to query this fabulous brain trust on the preferred method to accomplish that. [/b] -------- Myron Nelson Mesa, AZ Flew May 10 2014 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445853#445853 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Geoff Combs" <g.combs(at)aerosportmodeling.com>
Subject: Stick travel
Date: Aug 12, 2015
Myron This came from I think Deems but it works really good. It's a piece ok angle aluminum with a notch cut to required Stop. Use 2 10/32 screws or bolts with lock nuts. Geoff Combs -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of woxofswa Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:57 AM Subject: RV10-List: Stick travel I would like to limit my elevator down travel ever so slightly (about a 1/4 inch of stick travel.). I'd like to query this fabulous brain trust on the preferred method to accomplish that. [/b] -------- Myron Nelson Mesa, AZ Flew May 10 2014 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445853#445853 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2015
Subject: Re: Stick travel
From: John Trollinger <john(at)trollingers.com>
I did the same thing, works like a charm On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 8:25 AM, Geoff Combs wrote: > Myron > This came from I think Deems but it works really good. It's a piece ok > angle > aluminum with a notch cut to required > Stop. Use 2 10/32 screws or bolts with lock nuts. > > Geoff Combs > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of woxofswa > Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:57 AM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Stick travel > > > I would like to limit my elevator down travel ever so slightly (about a 1/4 > inch of stick travel.). I'd like to query this fabulous brain trust on the > preferred method to accomplish that. [/b] > > -------- > Myron Nelson > Mesa, AZ > Flew May 10 2014 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445853#445853 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alan Mekler MD <amekler(at)metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: removing seat
Date: Aug 13, 2015
I took the seat out today Could not get a socket wrench in so had to use an open end which made it tedious . Any one come across a small socket set that would fit? Alan Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 7, 2015, at 1:18 PM, Carl Froehlich wrote: > > > Don't even try to remove the seat back. Take the whole seat out. > > Carl > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of amekler > Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 12:38 PM > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: removing seat > > > I need to remove my front seat back for a upholstery repair Can the seat > back be removed or must I remove the whole seat? > What is easiest? > Alan > > ps does anyone have a schematic of the seat? > > Alan > N668G > 330 hrs > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445671#445671 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2015
Subject: Re: removing seat
From: Ed Kranz <ed.kranz(at)gmail.com>
Would one of these fit? On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Alan Mekler MD wrote: > > I took the seat out today > Could not get a socket wrench in so had to use an open end which made it > tedious . > Any one come across a small socket set that would fit? > Alan > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 7, 2015, at 1:18 PM, Carl Froehlich > wrote: > > > carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net> > > > > Don't even try to remove the seat back. Take the whole seat out. > > > > Carl > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of amekler > > Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 12:38 PM > > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: RV10-List: removing seat > > > > > > I need to remove my front seat back for a upholstery repair Can the seat > > back be removed or must I remove the whole seat? > > What is easiest? > > Alan > > > > ps does anyone have a schematic of the seat? > > > > Alan > > N668G > > 330 hrs > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445671#445671 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2015
From: Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com>
Subject: Re: removing seat
I ran into that issue also. I believe the carevout for the forward bolt in the seat rail stop is too small to get a standard wall socket in there. If I remember correctly, I purchased a set of thin wall sockets and that did the trick. -Sean #40303 (bird at the paint shop. pilot has lack of flying withdrawls) > Alan Mekler MD > August 13, 2015 at 11:31 AM > > I took the seat out today > Could not get a socket wrench in so had to use an open end which made > it tedious . > Any one come across a small socket set that would fit? > Alan > > > Sent from my iPhone > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alan Mekler MD <amekler(at)metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: removing seat
Date: Aug 13, 2015
I tried one of those the head was too big to fit onto the bolt Alan Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 13, 2015, at 12:59 PM, Ed Kranz wrote: > > Would one of these fit? > > >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Alan Mekler MD w rote: >> >> I took the seat out today >> Could not get a socket wrench in so had to use an open end which made it t edious . >> Any one come across a small socket set that would fit? >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> > On Aug 7, 2015, at 1:18 PM, Carl Froehlich wrote: >> > on.net> >> > >> > Don't even try to remove the seat back. Take the whole seat out. >> > >> > Carl >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com >> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of amekler >> > Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 12:38 PM >> > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com >> > Subject: RV10-List: removing seat >> > >> > >> > I need to remove my front seat back for a upholstery repair Can the sea t >> > back be removed or must I remove the whole seat? >> > What is easiest? >> > Alan >> > >> > ps does anyone have a schematic of the seat? >> > >> > Alan >> > N668G >> > 330 hrs >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445671#445671 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> = >> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navi gator?RV10-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n >> ========== > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: removing seat
From: Marcus Cooper <cooprv7(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 14, 2015
Ive used the ratchet wrenches a lot. I cant remember if ti will work there, but they really make life easy when applicable. The quality brands are worth the extra $$.

July 08, 2015 - August 13, 2015

RV10-Archive.digest.vol-kq