RotaxEngines-Archive.digest.vol-aw
December 11, 2010 - February 13, 2011
engine. It is ok for a short look at something and landing setups, but not
for a constant use. Your engine was specifically designed to run all it's
life in the 5000's. It was never intended to run in the 4000's and is really
hard on the engine over time and has much more vibration.
Be nice to your engine it cost $20K and it is one of the only things keeping
you in the air and safe.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322924#322924
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NEEL Jean Philippe <jeanphilippeneel(at)yahoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Icing: 912S versus 912 |
Hi all,=0AI flown my europa with a 912 80hp during 1200h/11years.It's a mar
k one but with =0AXS engine mounting and cowlings.Majority of flights took
place here in the =0AFrench Alps as well in -summer as in winter. I never
had icing-issue although I =0Ahad no carb preheater-.The only caution
I had ,when descending-,was to keep =0A4500/4800 rpm .-Never in idle po
sition.=0AIn the beggining of that year I change-my-912-for a new 912
S 100hp. That new =0Aengine has now about 125h. Yesterday I had for the fir
st time a rough running =0Aduring few seconds.Outer Air Temp was negative a
t every level and the issue =0Aoccurs at the end of a descent 4500/4800rpm
from 8000ft to 1500ft. There was =0Aabout- 8=B0C- of difference at grou
nd level betwen OAT and dew point.=0ASeveral time I read on Rotax and Europ
a web site discussions about icing issues =0Aand I-kept in mind that 912S
should be more sensitive to icing than 912.=0A=0AAs-I know:=0A* -Ca
rbs are the same ,except needle diam (2.72 versus 2.70 on S)-and ,may be,
=0Amain fuel jet-and diffuser (in accordance with needle)-.Does those
difference =0Acould explain more-sensitivity to icing?=0A* Compression
ratio and bore-are increased on S--but stroke is the same-. In my
=0Aopinion these difference have not thing to do with icing issue.=0A-So
here is my question-:-Could some body explain why a 912S should be more
=0Aexposed to icing than a 912?=0A=0AJean-Philippe Neel=0AF-PSLH Kit N=B02
73=0AGrenoble France-----=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Icing: 912S versus 912 |
The cooling (isentropic throttling) that makes carb icing happen is a
function of the amount of fuel vaporized so with all other things being
equal (same atmospheric conditions, engine manifold, carbs, RPM, etc.)
you
can expect the somewhat greater fuel flow (more power requires more
fuel) to
cause more cooling and hence a greater propensity to make ice.
Obviously
the 912 and 912S are =93different=94 engines but those differences are
internal
and downstream from the carbs. The 914 is less prone to carb ice
because
the air compressed by the turbo is warmer than the intake air.
Thermodynamics rules!
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, California
Europa XS
S/N A070
Rotax 914
Airframe complete
Avionics soon
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of NEEL
Jean
Philippe
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 12:35 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Icing: 912S versus 912
Hi all,
I flown my europa with a 912 80hp during 1200h/11years.It's a mark one
but
with XS engine mounting and cowlings.Majority of flights took place here
in
the French Alps as well in summer as in winter. I never had icing issue
although I had no carb preheater .The only caution I had ,when
descending
,was to keep 4500/4800 rpm . Never in idle position.
In the beggining of that year I change my 912 for a new 912S 100hp. That
new
engine has now about 125h. Yesterday I had for the first time a rough
running during few seconds.Outer Air Temp was negative at every level
and
the issue occurs at the end of a descent 4500/4800rpm from 8000ft to
1500ft.
There was about 8=B0C of difference at ground level betwen OAT and dew
point.
Several time I read on Rotax and Europa web site discussions about icing
issues and I kept in mind that 912S should be more sensitive to icing
than
912.
As I know:
* Carbs are the same ,except needle diam (2.72 versus 2.70 on S) and
,may be, main fuel jet and diffuser (in accordance with needle) .Does
those
difference could explain more sensitivity to icing?
* Compression ratio and bore are increased on S but stroke is the
same . In my opinion these difference have not thing to do with icing
issue.
So here is my question : Could some body explain why a 912S should be
more
exposed to icing than a 912?
Jean-Philippe Neel
F-PSLH Kit N=B0273
Grenoble France
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Actually both are correct. Rotax publishes numbers like that, but there are way
to many applications in the world for everyone to be spot on, so why try to
be at least close. Then the teachings in school aren't right along with the book
either. So we try to balance a little. Plus we all have different setups. If
you are at least 5000+ on take off and at 5500+ WOT you can sleep well at night.
Hi Noel,
Setting the rpm on the ground static is just to get close. Pitch angle does no
good unless you are talking about two identical planes and props. The only way
to really tell after that course static adjustment is to get into the air and
get some real flight numbers. Shoot for around 5200 static on the ground and
that will get you close enough for a flight test to dial it in where it really
needs to be.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322996#322996
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
What would you recommend to be a preliminary AOA for the prop? Warp, nickel
edge, square tip, 72" on a Kitfox II?
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: December 11, 2010 9:26 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and
pre-ignition
Actually both are correct. Rotax publishes numbers like that, but there are
way to many applications in the world for everyone to be spot on, so why
try to be at least close. Then the teachings in school aren't right along
with the book either. So we try to balance a little. Plus we all have
different setups. If you are at least 5000+ on take off and at 5500+ WOT you
can sleep well at night.
Hi Noel,
Setting the rpm on the ground static is just to get close. Pitch angle does
no good unless you are talking about two identical planes and props. The
only way to really tell after that course static adjustment is to get into
the air and get some real flight numbers. Shoot for around 5200 static on
the ground and that will get you close enough for a flight test to dial it
in where it really needs to be.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322996#322996
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Noel,
If you are flying with floats you may want a little flatter pitch for a little
better climb off the water with more weight. I have no recommendation for the
pitch, but only to set the static at 5200-5300 and go out and give it a try.
I know you have been flying your plane, so what is your WOT setting right now and
how does it perform?
Just a side note*
That particular prop from Warp isn't recommended by Rotax because of it's inertia
weight.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323017#323017
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
You don't say if it is a two or three blade propeller, but for a start with
either, try 10 degrees measured at the prop tip. That works out to about
38.5" pitch.
Rick Girard
On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 10:23 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
>
> What would you recommend to be a preliminary AOA for the prop? Warp,
> nickel
> edge, square tip, 72" on a Kitfox II?
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger
> Lee
> Sent: December 11, 2010 9:26 PM
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and
> pre-ignition
>
>
> Actually both are correct. Rotax publishes numbers like that, but there are
> way to many applications in the world for everyone to be spot on, so why
> try to be at least close. Then the teachings in school aren't right along
> with the book either. So we try to balance a little. Plus we all have
> different setups. If you are at least 5000+ on take off and at 5500+ WOT
> you
> can sleep well at night.
>
> Hi Noel,
>
> Setting the rpm on the ground static is just to get close. Pitch angle does
> no good unless you are talking about two identical planes and props. The
> only way to really tell after that course static adjustment is to get into
> the air and get some real flight numbers. Shoot for around 5200 static on
> the ground and that will get you close enough for a flight test to dial it
> in where it really needs to be.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322996#322996
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
>What is the best WOT with the tail tied down? Around what pitch angle is a
good place to start? (80 hp 912 UL)
Noel<
Noel I have my Kiev prop set at 71/2 degrees on my 80hp Kitfox. This gives
me 5200 rpm(per the Rotax service bulletin) @ WOT at the start of the take
off roll. This prop angle would probably do you no good as you most likely
have a different prop. I had to set the angle about 3 times until I got the
5200 I was looking for.
Dick Maddux
912UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
> What would you recommend to be a preliminary AOA for the prop? Warp,
nickel
edge, square tip, 72" on a Kitfox II?
Noel<
Noel,
I too had the 72" Warp nickel edge prop (although mine was the tapered
tip). I removed it and installed the lighter Kiev. That solved my engine run on
problems I was sometimes having at shutdown (prop would turn backwards
about three revolutions) I suspect the mass of the Warp was causing the prop to
flip back at the top of the "dog gears" in the gearbox at shutdown. For
whatever reason I now have a much smoother , quieter propeller and NO kickback.
But then, I am the only one in the country that has had the kickback
problem.
Dick Maddux
912UL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
The last time I flew the plane it was with a 582 UL with a three blade IVO
IFA. I think the 914 and the two blade WARP may be a whole new quintal of
fish!
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: December 12, 2010 1:24 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and
pre-ignition
Hi Noel,
If you are flying with floats you may want a little flatter pitch for a
little better climb off the water with more weight. I have no recommendation
for the pitch, but only to set the static at 5200-5300 and go out and give
it a try.
I know you have been flying your plane, so what is your WOT setting right
now and how does it perform?
Just a side note*
That particular prop from Warp isn't recommended by Rotax because of it's
inertia weight.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323017#323017
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
Thanks Rick that's where I'll start.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Girard
Sent: December 12, 2010 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and
pre-ignition
You don't say if it is a two or three blade propeller, but for a start with
either, try 10 degrees measured at the prop tip. That works out to about
38.5" pitch.
Rick Girard
On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 10:23 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
What would you recommend to be a preliminary AOA for the prop? Warp, nickel
edge, square tip, 72" on a Kitfox II?
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: December 11, 2010 9:26 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and
pre-ignition
Actually both are correct. Rotax publishes numbers like that, but there are
way to many applications in the world for everyone to be spot on, so why
try to be at least close. Then the teachings in school aren't right along
with the book either. So we try to balance a little. Plus we all have
different setups. If you are at least 5000+ on take off and at 5500+ WOT you
can sleep well at night.
Hi Noel,
Setting the rpm on the ground static is just to get close. Pitch angle does
no good unless you are talking about two identical planes and props. The
only way to really tell after that course static adjustment is to get into
the air and get some real flight numbers. Shoot for around 5200 static on
the ground and that will get you close enough for a flight test to dial it
in where it really needs to be.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322996#322996
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ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
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--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
Thanks Dick:
I wanted to initially set the pitch close to the 5300 as possible so I
wouldn't be all over the field trying to zero in... BTW the 5300 instead of
5200 is for two reasons... 1 STOL performance in the Kitfox and 2. The
plane is hardly blistering fast in fact it is close to flying a barn door
broadside to the wind. A great plane for this area.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Catz631(at)aol.com
Sent: December 12, 2010 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and
pre-ignition
>What is the best WOT with the tail tied down? Around what pitch angle is a
good place to start? (80 hp 912 UL)
Noel<
Noel I have my Kiev prop set at 71/2 degrees on my 80hp Kitfox. This gives
me 5200 rpm(per the Rotax service bulletin) @ WOT at the start of the take
off roll. This prop angle would probably do you no good as you most likely
have a different prop. I had to set the angle about 3 times until I got the
5200 I was looking for.
Dick Maddux
912UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2(at)primus.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
I'd be a bit concerned that with prop set to 5300 static that it could easily over-rev
on climbout.
I use 5000 static.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Fisher" <dave(at)cfisher.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
5100 to 5300 work well for me .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2(at)primus.ca>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and
pre-ignition
>
>
> I'd be a bit concerned that with prop set to 5300 static that it could
> easily over-rev on climbout. I use 5000 static.
> Dave
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fergus Kyle <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Along the lines of the latest training video, I recall a carbon
monoxide detector being installed in our Harvard versions of the NA-16
series SNJ/AT6 etc, on which we trained ab initio in the 50's.
The instructors sang the virtues ofg this device which hung low on
the instrument panel extreme port sub-panel, out of normal view. It was
supposed to assist the maintenance crew to adjust the engine to the proper
running at any new altitude AND be a quide to warning the flier of excess CO
should he have a head-ache or disorientation in flight.
The elevated powers found the device to cause excess cost and
complication and disconnected it. Naturally, I got a previously sea-
level-sourced machine at Gunnery School and had an exciting armed trip
complete with pounding headache and wonderful visions.
Yup, not properly prepared, she sent me to the hospital on the
prairies for a week of testing before I rejoined the gang.
just an observation.
Ferg
A064 wiring in a Dynon D-100
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | What to look for in a good Mechanic |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
What to look for in a good Mechanic and How do I know if I already have a good
one?
This can be a dynamic topic, but there are certainly some markers to look for in
finding yourself a good mechanic that you can really trust to keep you in the
air, safe and happy. You say you already have a mechanic; well the same properties
in looking for a mechanic apply to knowing if you have a good one. Lets
take a look at what traits might make up a good mechanic and what you can do
to find one.
Lets talk about looking for a good mechanic first. Just like in all professions
you have marginal professionals and top of the line. Here are a few items to
look for when trying to determine if a certain mechanic is right for you.
Questions for them and to yourself before selecting this mechanic.
(You may want to add a few extra qualifications on your own. These arent all inclusive)
1. Does he come recommended by other people?
2. Do you hear from others that he does a good job?
3. Does he have experience in your type aircraft?
4. Do you hear their name brought up favorably in conversations?
5. When you talk to them are they friendly and helpful before he wants to take
your money?
6. Ask them if they have the SBs and all the manuals for your engine and fuselage
on site?
7. How many aircraft like yours has he worked on or inspected?
8. Are they willing to show you the issues they found and answer your questions
knowledgeably about your plane while in their shop?
9. Whats his philosophy regarding regular and preventive maintenance?
10. Is he an arrogant mechanic or open minded to your ideas, suggestions, concerns
and will he research problems?
11 Do they use inspection check list, discrepancy list and do good logbook label
entries? (possibly ask to see a couple of his labels and check list)
12. Does he document well? Its for your benefit as well as his and he should know
that.
13. Does he give you copies of the maintenance check list or other documents for
your personal file? This should be an absolute in case you need it for the FAA,
insurance and the re-sale of your plane. Youre paying for the work, get it
the way you want it not him.
14. Does he seem to have the proper tools and education for your particular plane?
15. Last, but not least and this item is not a real marker of the mechanics professionalism,
but should be kept in the back of your mind. What do they charge?
If the price sounds too good to be true then there may be a reason and you may
get what you paid for. They may not be able to get much business from failings
of the above items and try to low ball prices to drum up more business. Someone
in a higher demand or better educated usually gets a little more money.
Now I know this is not always true thats why this is last and only something to
consider while looking for a mechanic that you will get along with and do a
good job for you.
A good mechanic will have a large portion and maybe if youre lucky all these traits
above.
The mechanics motto should be: I knowthere is something wrong with your plane (major
or minor) and Im going to find that for you to keep you safe. Due to a planes
wear and tear, loosening of attachment items or just sitting for extended
periods things change on a plane and its your mechanics job to find these. He
needs to be a skilled hunter of problems and an organized repairman for these
items.
You say you already have a mechanic then you should be able to use these questions
to determine if he is good for you. If there are some areas above that you
wish your mechanic would do better then sit down with them and explain that you
would like these items addressed better in the future. You are paying these
people good money and if they arent living up to your expectations then there
is nothing wrong with asking them to work on your plane a little different.
In many aspects of our life we have choices as to the way we want things, but when
we go to a Doctor, a Lawyer or a Mechanic we accept or expect them to tell
us what we need or want.
WRONG, we should exercise the same options with these professionals and they should
be receptive to our needs and you should fully expect help, understanding,
your options given and consideration to your own input. You should expect a
100% job and not 50% at a fair price for the service you receive. That said if
you go cheap sometime thats all you get. Getting a good professional is not always
the cheapest fare in town, but doesnt have to be the most expensive either.
Just like buying a new TV or car, shop around and get something that is quality,
will last and serve you well.
This was a long story and maybe I should have started it Once upon atime, but I
hope this helps someone in having a good sound relationship with their mechanic.
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL MY FRIENDS HERE ON OUR FORUM!
Roger Lee
Tucson, AZ
p.s.
If you have a good one don't forget to give them a hug! :D
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323060#323060
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Fasching" <n29cx(at)ridgeviewtel.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
Thanks for that great information, Roger. I made it a point to fly this
morning (wind finally stopped) and got 5,540-rpm WOT in straight and level
flight at our pattern altitude of 8300-ft. I am going to leave things right
there. Thanks again for the information, Roger
JohnF
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 5:55 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and
pre-ignition
>
> Actually both are correct. Rotax publishes numbers like that, but there
> are way to many applications in the world for everyone to be spot on, so
> why try to be at least close. Then the teachings in school aren't right
> along with the book either. So we try to balance a little. Plus we all
> have different setups. If you are at least 5000+ on take off and at 5500+
> WOT you can sleep well at night.
>
> Hi Noel,
>
> Setting the rpm on the ground static is just to get close. Pitch angle
> does no good unless you are talking about two identical planes and props.
> The only way to really tell after that course static adjustment is to get
> into the air and get some real flight numbers. Shoot for around 5200
> static on the ground and that will get you close enough for a flight test
> to dial it in where it really needs to be.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322996#322996
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Howdy John,
Sounds like you have it locked down in a perfect spot. Mine happens to be set there,
too. Special ops may require a little tweaking for some, but for the normal
everyday fixed pitch prop it's a good place to be for most of us.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323077#323077
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 582 Intake silencer |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
A customer just bought a Kolb Mk IIIX that is very heavy and needs every HP
it can get. I'm trying to find just how much the intake silencer is costing
him. Rotax has two sets different lines on their performance graphs for this
engine, but they are both labeled the same, 582 UL-2V but the difference
between the two is 11.4 HP (8 KW) is this the effect of the silencers? Given
the difference in jetting specs from the Bing manual it seems plausible, but
I don't want to advise him based on guesswork by me. Can anyone point me to
a Rotax spec for silencer / no silencer HP?
Thanks,
Rick Girard
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Fisher" <dave(at)cfisher.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 582 Intake silencer |
1 to 2 HP
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Girard
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 4:00 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 582 Intake silencer
A customer just bought a Kolb Mk IIIX that is very heavy and needs
every HP it can get. I'm trying to find just how much the intake
silencer is costing him. Rotax has two sets different lines on their
performance graphs for this engine, but they are both labeled the same,
582 UL-2V but the difference between the two is 11.4 HP (8 KW) is this
the effect of the silencers? Given the difference in jetting specs from
the Bing manual it seems plausible, but I don't want to advise him based
on guesswork by me. Can anyone point me to a Rotax spec for silencer /
no silencer HP?
Thanks,
Rick Girard
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be
unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Roger,
Item 15:
I'm glad you left that one open for interpretation, because my partner and I don't
charge as much as most mechanics because our overhead is lower, we are both
retired and do mechanic work for others because we enjoy helping them and keeping
our hands in it. Plus my partner has to stay "actively engaged" to keep
his I/A current. We are part-timers and we like it that way so we have an actual
retirement life outside of work. If it stops being fun, I'll quit doing it.
We stay as busy as we want to with work most A&Ps around here won't touch... experimental
aircraft, but also do type certificated airplane maintenance and inspection.
We enjoy working on the Rotax and Jabiru engines because they are great
engines but largely misunderstood by many A&Ps.
I'm in it for the fun and enjoyment of it in my retirement.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323152#323152
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Icing: 912S versus 912 |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Excellent point Rob:
But I think you have taken it one step further than the Gaggle need to
disseminate.
Everything said is true but there is one ingredient missing....WATER.
No mater how great the isentropic action is ice will not form unless the
temperature drops to and below the freezing point of the liquid. The
freezing point of Gas is around -95 Deg F (-70 C) and water is +32 F (0 C).
So the isentropic action upon gas is not an issue. You did say it but I
do not know how well it was received. Ice forms from WATER. The
temperature in the carb drops due to a drop in temperature due to the
venturi action. Simply put: The speed of the mass of air going through the
carb is increased by the carb's venturi. This increase in speed reduces th
e
pressure in the air flow. The reduction in pressure lowers the temperature
.
Tests have shown that with an OAT of 70 F (+21.1 C) you can get ICE in the
carb.
Taking it one step further the question of: Where does the WATER come from
has to be addressed? It is present in the AIR and in small quantities in
the gas. Even if you sum the tank you will not see the water in the gas.
Water gets into gas through condensation and absorption. Anyone
using straight Ethanol Gas? If so then due to the Alcohol you have water,
as alcohol is Hygroscopic. <-- meaning it adsorbs water.
I recall some obscure FAA Reg. requiring that Carb Heat must raise the
temperature 100 Degrees F above ambient. I have NEVER heard of that
being enforced.
I would guarantee that there is not a single RV 6 that could reach that
temp.
Barry
On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Rob Housman <rob@hyperion-ef.com> wrote:
> The cooling (isentropic throttling) that makes carb icing happen is a
> function of the amount of fuel vaporized so with all other things being
> equal (same atmospheric conditions, engine manifold, carbs, RPM, etc.) yo
u
> can expect the somewhat greater fuel flow (more power requires more fuel)
to
> cause more cooling and hence a greater propensity to make ice. Obviously
> the 912 and 912S are =93different=94 engines but those differences are in
ternal
> and downstream from the carbs. The 914 is less prone to carb ice because
> the air compressed by the turbo is warmer than the intake air.
> Thermodynamics rules!
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Rob Housman
>
> Irvine, California
>
> Europa XS
>
> S/N A070
>
> Rotax 914
>
> Airframe complete
>
> Avionics soon
>
>
> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *NEEL Jean
> Philippe
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 11, 2010 12:35 PM
> *To:* rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com; europa-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* RotaxEngines-List: Icing: 912S versus 912
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I flown my europa with a 912 80hp during 1200h/11years.It's a mark one bu
t
> with XS engine mounting and cowlings.Majority of flights took place here
in
> the French Alps as well in summer as in winter. I never had icing issue
> although I had no carb preheater .The only caution I had ,when
> descending ,was to keep 4500/4800 rpm . Never in idle position.
>
> In the beggining of that year I change my 912 for a new 912S 100hp. That
> new engine has now about 125h. Yesterday I had for the first time a rough
> running during few seconds.Outer Air Temp was negative at every level and
> the issue occurs at the end of a descent 4500/4800rpm from 8000ft to 1500
ft.
> There was about 8=B0C of difference at ground level betwen OAT and dew
> point.
>
> Several time I read on Rotax and Europa web site discussions about icing
> issues and I kept in mind that 912S should be more sensitive to icing tha
n
> 912.
>
>
> As I know:
>
> - Carbs are the same ,except needle diam (2.72 versus 2.70 on S) and
> ,may be, main fuel jet and diffuser (in accordance with needle) .Does
those
> difference could explain more sensitivity to icing?
> - Compression ratio and bore are increased on S but stroke is the
> same . In my opinion these difference have not thing to do with icing
issue.
>
> So here is my question : *Could some body explain why a 912S should be
> more exposed to icing than a 912?*
>
>
> Jean-Philippe Neel
>
> F-PSLH Kit N=B0273
>
> Grenoble France
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *www.aeroelectric.com*
>
> *www.buildersbooks.com*
>
> *www.homebuilthelp.com*
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
============*
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hey Thom:
Love the way you think.
There should also be a 15A.
I lost a job because I told the customer-to-be it would cost him $175 for
one hour of my time which included travel; to fix gas leak in a wing. The
guy that got the job charged him $2000 and the plane was down for about two
weeks.
Bottom line... I hope he got KISSED!
Barry
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Thom Riddle wrote:
m
> >
>
> Roger,
>
> Item 15:
> I'm glad you left that one open for interpretation, because my partner an
d
> I don't charge as much as most mechanics because our overhead is lower, w
e
> are both retired and do mechanic work for others because we enjoy helping
> them and keeping our hands in it. Plus my partner has to stay "actively
> engaged" to keep his I/A current. We are part-timers and we like it that
way
> so we have an actual retirement life outside of work. If it stops being f
un,
> I'll quit doing it.
>
> We stay as busy as we want to with work most A&Ps around here won't
> touch... experimental aircraft, but also do type certificated airplane
> maintenance and inspection. We enjoy working on the Rotax and Jabiru engi
nes
> because they are great engines but largely misunderstood by many A&Ps.
>
> I'm in it for the fun and enjoyment of it in my retirement.
>
> --------
> Thom Riddle
> Buffalo, NY (9G0)
> Kolb Slingshot SS-021
> Jabiru 2200A #1574
> Tennessee Prop 64x32
>
>
> =93Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.=94
> Daniel Patrick Moynihan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323152#323152
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
Thom Riddle wrote:
> Roger,
>
> Item 15:
> I'm glad you left that one open for interpretation, because my partner and I
don't charge as much as most mechanics because our overhead is lower, we are both
retired and do mechanic work for others because we enjoy helping them and
keeping our hands in it. Plus my partner has to stay "actively engaged" to keep
his I/A current. We are part-timers and we like it that way so we have an actual
retirement life outside of work. If it stops being fun, I'll quit doing it.
>
> We stay as busy as we want to with work most A&Ps around here won't touch...
experimental aircraft, but also do type certificated airplane maintenance and
inspection. We enjoy working on the Rotax and Jabiru engines because they are
great engines but largely misunderstood by many A&Ps.
>
> I'm in it for the fun and enjoyment of it in my retirement.
Sure wish both you guys lived near me!
In fact, I'm drifting towards going to Rotax school myself at some point out of
simple desperation. Right now, if something goes wrong with my 912 that isn't
just simple line maintenance, I'm screwed. It'd have to come off the plane and
go to Miss. or FL or somewhere.
Back when I flew the 503 I was able to do a bit more invasive stuff because I have
the entire 2-stroke toolset (minus a couple specific to the 582) but on the
912 there isn't anyone anywhere near here that's qualified to actually work
on it.
Also, the toolset for the 912 is as much as an engine if you get the entire thing.
So that probably makes it even more unusual to find folks who can actually
do teardowns on a sick 912. But if I go to school, I'll probably get some of
the basic tools....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323163#323163
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Thom,
I'm like you, retired and like what I'm doing. Keeps me busy. I also instruct for
AZ Homeland Security in between plane maint. I know different parts of the
country charge different rates and different people have different overhead. I
don't have any overhead either so my rates are a little cheaper. That's why I
kind of left #15 on rates open, because there are variables. It was just something
to consider while your looking around. By far the other items are more important.
I should have added in my little blog that when you find a good mechanic that does
a good job for you and you get along with well, be nice to them, sometimes
they are hard to come by.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323165#323165
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Of course the flip side of this is the guy who pencil whips an annual and
hurts everybody involved.
Case in point. Customer has his newly acquired aircraft delivered to me for
assembly and test flight following ground shipping. I had already pinpointed
7 things that needed to be fixed based on pictures the previous owner sent
to the buyer. Not big things. Stuff like wrong tubing used for pulse line
from engine to fuel pump, head vent line at low end of engine rather than
high end, those kind of little detail things. When plane arrives, we find
main spar carry through holes wobbled out so big I'll have to make bushings
to correct, drag spar fitting loose and rattling, covering worn through for
12" on wing root where gap cover overlaps, tail wires improperly swaged,
carburetor boots severely cracked, plane is overweight by almost 200 lb.
from empty weight listed in the logs, and those are just the obvious
problems. Since, according to the seller, the wings were off the plane at
the time and there is no time recorded on the Hobbs since the "inspection"
was performed it's hard to believe these items were missed.
Obviously the seller got what he wanted, a good conditional inspection to
aid in the sale, the A & P made a quick buck, the buyer gets the bill to
return the aircraft to safe condition, and I get some work after I deliver
the bad news. Of course the other obvious question is what would have
happened had the buyer just accepted delivery, set up and gone flying?
Scares me to think about it.
Rick Girard
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 8:23 AM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
> Hi Thom,
>
> I'm like you, retired and like what I'm doing. Keeps me busy. I also
> instruct for AZ Homeland Security in between plane maint. I know different
> parts of the country charge different rates and different people have
> different overhead. I don't have any overhead either so my rates are a
> little cheaper. That's why I kind of left #15 on rates open, because there
> are variables. It was just something to consider while your looking around.
> By far the other items are more important.
>
> I should have added in my little blog that when you find a good mechanic
> that does a good job for you and you get along with well, be nice to them,
> sometimes they are hard to come by.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323165#323165
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
rickofudall wrote:
> Stuff like wrong tubing used for pulse line from engine to fuel pump
>
Heh, funny you mention the pulse line. This is such a simple part of a 2-stroke
installation that's just amazingly misunderstood.
My last exchange over on the Kolb list before leaving was a fight over the pulse
line length, it was amazing how aggressive the attacks were when I insisted
it needed to be a foot and half long at a minimum (the Rotax spec is 20" at the
longest, but that's a maximum value that you don't really want to use for a
truly safe installation). I finally had to leave the list because I was even getting
PM's about ruffling the feathers of one of the "gurus" on the list.
But this is actually the single most neglected and violated safety issue with the
2-strokes. I've seen installations with this line over 2' long, and that was
specified by the factory in one case! The owner of that particular plane was
constantly having fuel starvation issues, very dangerous.
It's often thought that as long as line is made of the right material, the pulse
line can be as long as you please. But the limiting factor is the compliance
of the air column in the line, not the stiffness of the lines themselves. So
even if it's solid steel brake line, you don't want to run more than about 1.5
feet on this line.
But I'm still stunned by how hard people fight back on this and still want to run
these mile-long pulse lines. It's almost as if they want a safety issue on
the plane just because the pump looks so pretty bolted onto a firewall a mile
away from the motor ;).
So that's another thing that can really frustrate you when helping someone out
with their installation, etc. - they'll sometimes really fight you on it....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323173#323173
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Rick,
I experienced something similar about four years ago. A customer bought a Challenger
from Minnesota without looking at it, because the owner had a recent annual
condition inspection and told the buyer he had been flying regularly, at least
weekly, for the past year. When it arrived by truck, from a distance it looked
good, i.e., the fabric and paint were nice and no obvious corrosion etc.
Fortunately, it was structurally sound but had dozens of little things that revealed
what a blatant lier the seller was. Tires were flat, the fuel in the tank
was the color of molasses, the battery was beyond servicing, etc. The logbook
condition inspection entry was obviously done without actually inspecting anything
and the time in service since the previous one, well over a year earlier,
was about 4 hours. It cost our customer nearly a $1,000 to get it to the point
where it was safe and able to fly. He was lucky because it could have been
much worse.
I don't even know if the guy who signed the condition inspection was a real person
with a valid mechanic certificate number, but if he was, he should have his
ticket yanked.
Caveat Emptor
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323174#323174
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NEEL Jean Philippe <jeanphilippeneel(at)yahoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Icing: 912S versus 912 |
Rob and Barry, =0AMany thanks=C2-for your answers.=0AI well know the proc
ess that lead a carb to icing. It's usefull to remember that =0Awater can b
e provided by air and by gas itself and the alcohol effect.=0AI also know t
hat if I=C2-worry about icing , there are a lot of solutions to =0Apreven
t from: hot water circulation on the carb body, hot air admission=C2-.=0A
In fact my question was :=C2- Could some body explain why a Rotax=C2-91
2S should be =0Amore exposed to icing than a 912?=0A=C2-=0A=0AJean-Philip
pe Neel=0AF-PSLH Kit N=C2=B0273=0AGrenoble France=0A=0A=0A=0A______________
__________________=0ADe : FLYaDIVE =0A=C3 : rotaxeng
ines-list(at)matronics.com=0AEnvoy=C3=A9 le : Lun 13 d=C3=A9cembre 2010, 15h 0
6min 44s=0AObjet=C2-: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Icing: 912S versus 912=0A=0A
Excellent=C2-point Rob: =0A=0ABut I think you have taken it one step furt
her than the Gaggle need to =0Adisseminate.=0AEverything=C2-said is true
but there is one ingredient missing....WATER.=0ANo mater how great the isen
tropic action is ice will not form unless the =0Atemperature drops to and b
elow the freezing point of the liquid. =C2-The freezing =0Apoint of Gas i
s around -95 Deg F (-70 C) and water is +32 F (0 C). =C2-So the =0Aisentr
opic action upon gas is not an issue. =C2- You did say it but I do not kn
ow =0Ahow well it was received.=C2-=C2-Ice forms from WATER. =C2-The
temperature in the carb =0Adrops due to a drop in temperature due to the ve
nturi action. =C2-Simply put: The =0Aspeed of the mass of air going throu
gh the carb is increased by the carb's =0Aventuri. =C2-This increase in s
peed reduces the pressure in the air flow. =C2-The =0Areduction in pressu
re lowers the temperature. =C2-Tests have shown that with an OAT =0Aof 70
F (+21.1 C) you can get ICE in the carb.=0ATaking it one step further the
question of: Where does the WATER come from has =0Ato be addressed? =C2-I
t is present in the AIR and in small quantities in the gas. =0A=C2-Even i
f you sum the tank you will not see the water in the gas. =C2-Water gets
=0Ainto gas through condensation and=C2-absorption. =C2-Anyone =0Ausing
=C2-straight=C2-Ethanol=C2-Gas? =C2-If so then due to the Alcohol y
ou have water, as =0Aalcohol is=C2-Hygroscopic. =C2-<-- meaning it=C2
-adsorbs=C2-water.=0A=0A=0AI recall some obscure FAA Reg. requiring tha
t Carb Heat must raise the =0Atemperature 100 Degrees F above ambient. =C2
-I have NEVER heard of that =0Abeing=C2-enforced.=0AI would=C2-guaran
tee=C2-that there is not a single RV 6 that could reach that temp.=0A=0AB
arry=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Rob Housman wrote:=0A=0AThe cooling (isentropic throttling) that makes carb
icing happen is a function =0Aof the amount of fuel vaporized so with all o
ther things being equal (same =0Aatmospheric conditions, engine manifold, c
arbs, RPM, etc.) you can expect the =0Asomewhat greater fuel flow (more pow
er requires more fuel) to cause more cooling =0Aand hence a greater propens
ity to make ice.=C2- Obviously the 912 and 912S are =0A=9Cdifferent
=9D engines but those differences are internal and downstream from th
e =0Acarbs.=C2- The 914 is less prone to carb ice because the air compres
sed by the =0Aturbo is warmer than the intake air.=C2- Thermodynamics rul
es!=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>Best regards,=0A>=C2-=0A>Rob Housman=0A>Irvine
, California=0A>Europa XS =0A>S/N A070=0A>Rotax 914=0A>Airframe complete=0A
>Avionics soon=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>From:owner-rotaxengines-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com =0A>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics
.com] On Behalf Of NEEL Jean =0A>Philippe=0A>Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2
010 12:35 PM=0A>To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com; europa-list(at)matronics.
com=0A>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Icing: 912S versus 912=0A>=C2-=0A>Hi a
ll,=0A>I flown my europa with a 912 80hp during 1200h/11years.It's a mark o
ne but with =0A>XS engine mounting and cowlings.Majority of flights took pl
ace here in the =0A>French Alps as well in =C2-summer as in winter. I nev
er had icing=C2-issue although I =0A>had no carb preheater=C2-.The only
caution I had ,when descending=C2-,was to keep =0A>4500/4800 rpm .=C2-
Never in idle position.=0A>In the beggining of that year I change=C2-my
=C2-912=C2-for a new 912S 100hp. That new =0A>engine has now about 125h
. Yesterday I had for the first time a rough running =0A>during few seconds
.Outer Air Temp was negative at every level and the issue =0A>occurs at the
end of a descent 4500/4800rpm from 8000ft to 1500ft. There was =0A>about
=C2- 8=C2=B0C=C2- of difference at ground level betwen OAT and dew poin
t.=0A>Several time I read on Rotax and Europa web site discussions about ic
ing issues =0A>and I=C2-kept in mind that 912S should be more sensitive t
o icing than 912.=0A>=C2-=0A>As=C2-I know:=0A>* =C2-Carbs are the
same ,except needle diam (2.72 versus 2.70 on S)=C2-and ,may be, =0A>main
fuel jet=C2-and diffuser (in accordance with needle)=C2-.Does those di
fference =0A>could explain more=C2-sensitivity to icing?=0A>* Compress
ion ratio and bore=C2-are increased on S=C2-=C2-but stroke is the sam
e=C2-. In my =0A>opinion these difference have not thing to do with icing
issue.=0A>=C2-So here is my question=C2-:=C2-Could some body explain
why a 912S should be more =0A>exposed to icing than a 912?=0A>=C2-=0A>Je
an-Philippe Neel=0A>F-PSLH Kit N=C2=B0273=0A>Grenoble France=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>www.aeroelectric.com=0A>ww
w.buildersbooks.com=0A>www.homebuilthelp.com=0A>http://www.matronics.com/co
ntribution=0A>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List=0A>http:
//forums.matronics.com=0A> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com .com" target="_b
lank">www.buildersbooks.com =0A>="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com _blank">h
ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A>ist" target="_blank">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List =0A>tp://forums.matronics.com =0A
============ =0A=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Guys,
You guys just showed me and everyone that wants to get away too cheap or has little
to no knowledge about their plane for standards on proper maint. or a proper
inspections. Some have someone do the maint. or inspection that really doesn't
have a clue, but has A&P or LSRM-A after his name. It really behoofs people
to seek out someone that has some knowledge and education to help do the maint.
It can and does save you money and horror stories later. May even save your
life.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323193#323193
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Icing: 912S versus 912 |
| From: | neveyre(at)aol.co.uk |
Hi Jean-Philippe,
Does the 912S have the cooling shroud over the cylinders, and perhaps the
912 did not ?
Cheers,
Nev.
-----Original Message-----
From: NEEL Jean Philippe <jeanphilippeneel(at)yahoo.fr>
Sent: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 18:13
Subject: Re : RotaxEngines-List: Icing: 912S versus 912
Rob and Barry,
Many thanks for your answers.
I well know the process that lead a carb to icing. It's usefull to remembe
r that water can be provided by air and by gas itself and the alcohol effe
ct.
I also know that if I worry about icing , there are a lot of solutions to
prevent from: hot water circulation on the carb body, hot air admission
.
In fact my question was : Could some body explain why a Rotax 912S should
be more exposed to icing than a 912?
Jean-Philippe Neel
F-PSLH Kit N=C2=B0273
Grenoble France
De : FLYaDIVE
=C3 : rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Envoy=C3=A9 le : Lun 13 d=C3=A9cembre 2010, 15h 06min 44s
Objet : Re: RotaxEngines-List: Icing: 912S versus 912
Excellent point Rob:
But I think you have taken it one step further than the Gaggle need to dis
seminate.
Everything said is true but there is one ingredient missing....WATER.
No mater how great the isentropic action is ice will not form unless the
temperature drops to and below the freezing point of the liquid. The fre
ezing point of Gas is around -95 Deg F (-70 C) and water is +32 F (0 C).
So the isentropic action upon gas is not an issue. You did say it but
I do not know how well it was received. Ice forms from WATER. The tempe
rature in the carb drops due to a drop in temperature due to the venturi
action. Simply put: The speed of the mass of air going through the carb
is increased by the carb's venturi. This increase in speed reduces the
pressure in the air flow. The reduction in pressure lowers the temperatu
re. Tests have shown that with an OAT of 70 F (+21.1 C) you can get ICE
in the carb.
Taking it one step further the question of: Where does the WATER come from
has to be addressed? It is present in the AIR and in small quantities in
the gas. Even if you sum the tank you will not see the water in the gas.
Water gets into gas through condensation and absorption. Anyone using
straight Ethanol Gas? If so then due to the Alcohol you have water, as
alcohol is Hygroscopic. <-- meaning it adsorbs water.
I recall some obscure FAA Reg. requiring that Carb Heat must raise the tem
perature 100 Degrees F above ambient. I have NEVER heard of that being en
forced.
I would guarantee that there is not a single RV 6 that could reach that te
mp.
Barry
On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Rob Housman <rob@hyperion-ef.com> wrote:
The cooling (isentropic throttling) that makes carb icing happen is a func
tion of the amount of fuel vaporized so with all other things being equal
(same atmospheric conditions, engine manifold, carbs, RPM, etc.) you can
expect the somewhat greater fuel flow (more power requires more fuel) to
cause more cooling and hence a greater propensity to make ice. Obviously
the 912 and 912S are =9Cdifferent=9D engines but those differ
ences are internal and downstream from the carbs. The 914 is less prone
to carb ice because the air compressed by the turbo is warmer than the in
take air. Thermodynamics rules!
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, California
Europa XS
S/N A070
Rotax 914
Airframe complete
Avionics soon
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengi
nes-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of NEEL Jean Philippe
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 12:35 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Icing: 912S versus 912
Hi all,
I flown my europa with a 912 80hp during 1200h/11years.It's a mark one but
with XS engine mounting and cowlings.Majority of flights took place here
in the French Alps as well in summer as in winter. I never had icing iss
ue although I had no carb preheater .The only caution I had ,when descendi
ng ,was to keep 4500/4800 rpm . Never in idle position.
In the beggining of that year I change my 912 for a new 912S 100hp. That
new engine has now about 125h. Yesterday I had for the first time a rough
running during few seconds.Outer Air Temp was negative at every level and
the issue occurs at the end of a descent 4500/4800rpm from 8000ft to 1500
ft. There was about 8=C2=B0C of difference at ground level betwen OAT an
d dew point.
Several time I read on Rotax and Europa web site discussions about icing
issues and I kept in mind that 912S should be more sensitive to icing tha
n 912.
As I know:
Carbs are the same ,except needle diam (2.72 versus 2.70 on S) and ,may
be, main fuel jet and diffuser (in accordance with needle) .Does those di
fference could explain more sensitivity to icing?
Compression ratio and bore are increased on S but stroke is the same . In
my opinion these difference have not thing to do with icing issue.
So here is my question : Could some body explain why a 912S should be mor
e exposed to icing than a 912?
Jean-Philippe Neel
F-PSLH Kit N=C2=B0273
Grenoble France
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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ooks.commatronics.com/contribution" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
Having had ownership in over two dozen planes over quite a few years now,
I have to agree that finding the right maintainence shop(s) or person(s)
with knowlege, experience, training, skills, and ethics to do the
maintainence or provde the assistance needed can be a pocketbook and life
saver.
BJ
Kitfox IV N154K
PA 39 Turbo N626NR
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> You guys just showed me and everyone that wants to get away too cheap or
> has little to no knowledge about their plane for standards on proper
> maint. or a proper inspections. Some have someone do the maint. or
> inspection that really doesn't have a clue, but has A&P or LSRM-A after
> his name. It really behoofs people to seek out someone that has some
> knowledge and education to help do the maint. It can and does save you
> money and horror stories later. May even save your life.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323193#323193
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
This one looks good. Saw her on Barnstormers.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Is my hanger door just waiting for me to be complacent? |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi All,
Is my hanger door just waiting for me to be complacent? (Yes it is!)
Another recent incident has prompted me to throw this out for review.
Just wanted to touch bases with everyone concerning our hanger doors. Over the
last couple of years too many people have shut their hanger doors on their plane.
Usually the tail and a few wings. That means we are leaving our planes way
too close to the door edge whether it be on the inside, but usually these incidents
happen when the plane is on the outside of the door.
When I was on the Fire Department there were many door accidents as the truck would
pull out. You can imagine what something the size of a fire truck can do
to a large garage type door. The cost to the department was hundreds of thousands
of dollars.
So a policy was written. The door is either on 12" off the ground and open for
air movement or it was all the way open. Nothing in between. The truck was either
all the way in the apparatus bay or it was all the way out. No one was allowed
to touch the close button until the truck was way out of the station or parked
inside. Failure to follow these rules led to a one day suspension and damage
to another door or vehicle was much longer.
The point of this is to make everyone take notice that their plane should never
be parked half way in or out of the hanger or very close to any door. If it is
an electric hanger door it has a certain amount of angle that it protrudes as
it opens.
These hanger accidents has cost many thousands of dollars and I hope this little
article helps someone from having this type of accident again. Even if the insurance
pays for this incident the repair work and logistics is a royal pain.
If I have to have something that crosses the door threshold then I trip the electrical
breakers so there is no power to the door and it can't move.
Don't get suspended keep your attention focused and your plane at a safe distance
from the hanger door. [Wink]
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323237#323237
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Is my hanger door just waiting for me to be complacent? |
Roger
I do love your posts, and I always learn something with them, but
forgive me
if I have to make a correction to this last one:
- =93hanger=94 is where one can hang something
- =93hangar=94 is where we can put our airplanes in
Carlos
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-
> list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
> Sent: ter=E7a-feira, 14 de Dezembro de 2010 1:47
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Is my hanger door just waiting for me to
be
> complacent?
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> Is my hanger door just waiting for me to be complacent? (Yes it is!)
>
> Another recent incident has prompted me to throw this out for review.
>
> Just wanted to touch bases with everyone concerning our hanger doors.
Over
the
> last couple of years too many people have shut their hanger doors on
their
plane.
> Usually the tail and a few wings. That means we are leaving our planes
way
too
> close to the door edge whether it be on the inside, but usually these
incidents
> happen when the plane is on the outside of the door.
> When I was on the Fire Department there were many door accidents as
the
truck
> would pull out. You can imagine what something the size of a fire
truck
can do to a
> large garage type door. The cost to the department was hundreds of
thousands of
> dollars.
> So a policy was written. The door is either on 12" off the ground and
open
for air
> movement or it was all the way open. Nothing in between. The truck was
either all
> the way in the apparatus bay or it was all the way out. No one was
allowed
to touch
> the close button until the truck was way out of the station or parked
inside. Failure
> to follow these rules led to a one day suspension and damage to
another
door or
> vehicle was much longer.
> The point of this is to make everyone take notice that their plane
should
never be
> parked half way in or out of the hanger or very close to any door. If
it
is an electric
> hanger door it has a certain amount of angle that it protrudes as it
opens.
> These hanger accidents has cost many thousands of dollars and I hope
this
little
> article helps someone from having this type of accident again. Even if
the
insurance
> pays for this incident the repair work and logistics is a royal pain.
> If I have to have something that crosses the door threshold then I
trip
the electrical
> breakers so there is no power to the door and it can't move.
>
>
> Don't get suspended keep your attention focused and your plane at a
safe
distance
> from the hanger door. [Wink]
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323237#323237
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Is my hangar door just waiting for me to be complacent? |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Nothing like having you mother look over your should at 57 years old. [Laughing]
[Laughing] [Laughing] [Laughing]
It's fixed
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323243#323243
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Is my hangar door just waiting for me to be complacent? |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Roger Lee wrote:
> Nothing like having your mother look over your shoulder at 57 years old. [Laughing]
[Laughing] [Laughing] [Laughing]
>
>
> It's fixed
>
> Thanks for watching out for me.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323245#323245
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | 2010 List of Contributors |
Dear Listers,
The 2010 Matronics Email List and Forum Fund Raiser officially ended a couple of
weeks ago and its time that I publish this year's List of Contributors. Its
the people on this list that directly make the Email Lists and Forums possible.
Their generous contributions keep the servers and Internet connection up and
running.
You can still show your support this year and pick up a great gift at the same
time. The Contribution Web Site is fast, easy, and secure:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
I also want to thank Bob, Jon, and Andy for their generous support through the
supply of great gifts this year!! These guys have some great products and I encourage
you to visit their respective web sites:
Bob Nucklolls - AeroElectric - www.aeroelectric.com
Jon Croke - HomebuiltHELP - www.homebuilthelp.com
Andy Gold - The Builder's Bookstore - www.buildersbooks.com
And finally, I'm proud to present The 2010 Fund Raiser List of Contributors:
http://www.matronics.com/loc/2010.html
Thanks again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave G" <occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Losing rpm on takeoff |
Problem solved, although what is actually happening is a subject of some
debate.
Those who operate the Warp drive taper tip props or have experience with
them were exactly right and ignoring static RPM was clearly the way to
go. I ended up with a very nice smoooth prop after reducing pitch
significantly.
It is now pitched to allow 6200 rpm in full throttle climb at 0 deg
temp. I expect we will have to revisit this when it warms up. The engine
will overspeed quite easily on the ground until speed builds. I have
spoken to a
few others with the same type of prop and their expereince is similar.
Thanks to those who offered asistance, it would have taken somewhat
longer to get it right without it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Losing rpm on takeoff |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Occom,
I have lots of people ask me what static rpm to set. My standard answer is; the
static is only a place to start when putting on a new prop and you have no real
idea of an exact pitch and final rpm. I always tell them set a general static
rpm and go fly. Flying is the only way to be exact and sure of the final results.
This is the only way to dial in a prop/engine rpm to match your plane and
local flying conditions.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323340#323340
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
Any Ideas about the neighbourhood of the AOA for that?
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Austin
Sent: December 12, 2010 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and
pre-ignition
I'd be a bit concerned that with prop set to 5300 static that it could
easily over-rev on climbout.
I use 5000 static.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Losing rpm on takeoff |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
[quote="occom"]Problem solved, although what is actually happening is a subject
of some debate.
Those who operate the Warp drive taper tip props or have experience with them
were exactly right and ignoring static RPM was clearly the way to go. I ended
up with a very nice smoooth prop after reducing pitch significantly.
It is now pitched to allow 6200 rpm in full throttle climb at 0 deg temp. I expect
we will have to revisit this when it warms up. The engine will overspeed
quite easily on the ground until speed builds. I have spoken to a
few others with the same type of prop and their expereince is similar.
Thanks to those who offered asistance, it would have taken somewhat longer to
get it right without it.
> [b]
That sounds pretty close to me. On my Kolb/503, I got about 6300 on a normal climbout
(tho I don't actually remember that speed offhand), tho that was slightly
underpropped for WOT at straight and level IIRC.
But like I said, tho I love my powerfin, I wish I could make my 68" taper tip work
on my tornado. Once I had the pitch dialed in I was able to do 100mph indicated
(about 110mph true) at only half throttle at 10,000' MSL. Plus, I could
get a virtually constant 5400rpm on climbout even varying between 65 and 80mph
indicated.
The static rpm always seemed to settle at about 5200 rpm no matter what the pitch
was set at (I went from 13.5 to about 15 degs in the course of the dialing
in and the static was always the same).....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323342#323342
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | "moosepileit" <rklarich(at)gmail.com> |
My Kitfox w/ 912 UL 80 hp came from a 5000' MSL field and is now hangared at sea
level. It was rough from around 4000 to 3700 rpm on a digital tach. and has
2 egts running @ 1400 degrees.
Carb needles were up at position 2. Makes sense for where the plane used to live.
Dropped the clip to normal positions 3, raising the needle and the egts are
the same, but now smooth running all rpms. (Thanks, Roger!)
I thought it might take dropping to clip position 4 to fully raise the needle or
a change of needle and jet from standard as it's now mid 30's when I fly, but
the position 3 did it for me.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323361#323361
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Position 3 on the carb needle is normal and a good place to be for the majority
of us. If you live and fly from high elevations then maybe #2, but be ware if
you come down to visit us low landers.
#3 is good for most during summer and winter. The more you tinker against what
Rotax advises the more chance of making a costly error or a poor running engine.
You need to be able to fully understand the Rotax engine and how to accurately
interpret engine information on the gauges or test equipment. If you don't
then leave it as the factory set it up and you will fly to your TBO without any
issues.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323365#323365
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
So all of this talk of changing needle positions based on altitude has me
wondering. What if you want to fly from sea-level to high altitude? What
then???
Ken Ryan
Anchorage, Alaska
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
> Position 3 on the carb needle is normal and a good place to be for the
> majority of us. If you live and fly from high elevations then maybe #2, but
> be ware if you come down to visit us low landers.
> #3 is good for most during summer and winter. The more you tinker against
> what Rotax advises the more chance of making a costly error or a poor
> running engine. You need to be able to fully understand the Rotax engine and
> how to accurately interpret engine information on the gauges or test
> equipment. If you don't then leave it as the factory set it up and you will
> fly to your TBO without any issues.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323365#323365
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
kenryan wrote:
> So all of this talk of changing needle positions based on altitude has me wondering.
What if you want to fly from sea-level to high altitude? What then???
>
> Ken Ryan
> Anchorage, Alaska
>
You shouldn't have to change anything. I live at 7000' MSL (northern NM) and fly
usually up to 9999' MSL, even on local messing-around flights. My carbs still
have the factory jetting and they compensate fairly well. Mine run a bit rich
at low power settings (i.e. between 2000 and 3000 or so on the ground or during
approaches) and it's going to idle rich also (if you use the factory 1.5 turns
on the idle needle). But at full power it still leans out fairly well, giving
EGT's in the 1250 to 1350F range.
So shouldn't be a problem...
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323383#323383
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
I'm with Lucien. leave it alone. You will be a little rich for that flight, but
so what it will fly just fine. Making a permanent needle adjustment should mean
you are more or less permanently at altitude.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323400#323400
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
I could easily be taking off at sea level and then flying to over 14000.
Ken Ryan
Anchorage, Alaska
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 6:11 PM, lucien wrote:
> lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>
>
>
> kenryan wrote:
> > So all of this talk of changing needle positions based on altitude has me
> wondering. What if you want to fly from sea-level to high altitude? What
> then???
> >
> > Ken Ryan
> > Anchorage, Alaska
> >
>
>
> You shouldn't have to change anything. I live at 7000' MSL (northern NM)
> and fly usually up to 9999' MSL, even on local messing-around flights. My
> carbs still have the factory jetting and they compensate fairly well. Mine
> run a bit rich at low power settings (i.e. between 2000 and 3000 or so on
> the ground or during approaches) and it's going to idle rich also (if you
> use the factory 1.5 turns on the idle needle). But at full power it still
> leans out fairly well, giving EGT's in the 1250 to 1350F range.
>
> So shouldn't be a problem...
>
> LS
>
> --------
> LS
> Titan II SS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323383#323383
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
That example was for flying from a base of 7000 to 9000. I'm talking more
about flying from sea level to about 14,000. Same answer?
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
> I'm with Lucien. leave it alone. You will be a little rich for that flight,
> but so what it will fly just fine. Making a permanent needle adjustment
> should mean you are more or less permanently at altitude.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323400#323400
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
My home bases are at sea level in Florida Keys and adjacent to Chesapeake
Bay but have flown over Grand Canyon, and around the South West Rockies up
to about 10,000 plus a trip Md to Fl at about 10,000 and have not noticed
any engine roughness in an early s/n 912. Can't remember going to 14,000
feet though.
BJ
KF IV N154K
> That example was for flying from a base of 7000 to 9000. I'm talking more
> about flying from sea level to about 14,000. Same answer?
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I'm with Lucien. leave it alone. You will be a little rich for that
>> flight,
>> but so what it will fly just fine. Making a permanent needle adjustment
>> should mean you are more or less permanently at altitude.
>>
>> --------
>> Roger Lee
>> Tucson, Az.
>> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
>> Rotax Repair Center
>> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
>> Cell 520-349-7056
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323400#323400
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
kenryan wrote:
> I could easily be taking off at sea level and then flying to over 14000.
>
> Ken Ryan
> Anchorage, Alaska
>
>
I still think you'll be ok. By the time you get up there, you're going to be mostly
wide open all the time anyway so the carbs should compensate pretty well.
I've flown mine at density altitudes approaching 12,000' MSL without any visible
running problems.
I would make sure that you have the carb vent lines installed correctly first (i.e.
going into the aircleaners or airbox). The carbs really do go rich at higher
altitudes if the vent lines are just hanging out in the breeze and that could
cause problems that high up.
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323419#323419
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks for the inputs!
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 8:21 AM, lucien wrote:
> lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>
>
>
> kenryan wrote:
> > I could easily be taking off at sea level and then flying to over 14000.
> >
> > Ken Ryan
> > Anchorage, Alaska
> >
> >
>
>
> I still think you'll be ok. By the time you get up there, you're going to
> be mostly wide open all the time anyway so the carbs should compensate
> pretty well. I've flown mine at density altitudes approaching 12,000' MSL
> without any visible running problems.
>
> I would make sure that you have the carb vent lines installed correctly
> first (i.e. going into the aircleaners or airbox). The carbs really do go
> rich at higher altitudes if the vent lines are just hanging out in the
> breeze and that could cause problems that high up.
>
> LS
>
> --------
> LS
> Titan II SS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323419#323419
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Ok, I didn't want to post this, but for the sake of no one messing with their engine
here goes. I have friends that have been to 18'K + with their 912ULS and
the clip at number 3. Leave your clips alone and your engine will take you any
where you want to go.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323436#323436
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | "moosepileit" <rklarich(at)gmail.com> |
Roger,
For the case of sea level to 14k'- I agree, CLIP #3, the standard for the 80HP
Rotax UL. My experience moving from 5k' to sea level proved that out.
You might want to look at the HACMAN for the case of going up high, less than $200
for the install, assuming you didn't need to send out the carbs for the tapping
setup.
Now, My carb vents are just tucked in the bales from the float bowl. I have the
K&N filters, both pancakes, one per side, oriented properly. Should I tap into
the back plastic and run the carb vents back to the air filters? Does anyone
have a picture of this? It would look just like running the vents to the
air inlet manifold on the ROTAX 912s that use a plenum/manifold connected to
both carbs.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323446#323446
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
moosepileit wrote:
>
> Now, My carb vents are just tucked in the bales from the float bowl. I have
the K&N filters, both pancakes, one per side, oriented properly. Should I tap
into the back plastic and run the carb vents back to the air filters? Does anyone
have a picture of this? It would look just like running the vents to the
air inlet manifold on the ROTAX 912s that use a plenum/manifold connected to
both carbs.
I'd definitely fix this before flying at high altitudes. Soon as I can get out
to the hangar with my camera, I'll take some pictures of how I did mine.
Basically, you can get a brass double-barbed fitting at Lowes or somewhere (1/8"
IIRC), the fitting with barbs on each end and a disc in the center. I.e. looks
like
then, drill a hole in the back panel of the air filter (remove for this and clean
out the scrap rubber completely). Push the barb in till it bottoms out at the
disk. Push the carb vent line over the other end of the barb and you're done....
I have the big flat Rotax K&N's which makes this easy.
But I'll try to get some pics of what I have...
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323459#323459
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | "moosepileit" <rklarich(at)gmail.com> |
Lucien, thanks! I was fine cruising at 9500' msl w/ OAT about 32F/freezing. Your
description is great, thanks. I don't think she'll be getting above a couple
thousand feet for a while, EGT is 1400 WOT down low now and takeoff.
It makes sense to have the carbs as equal as possible, which does not include 2
vent hoses randomly in the airflow, even just tucked against the carb bowl holders/bails.
So, with this setup, is there any use for carb drip trays? I don't need them for
heat isolation and the carbs can't drip onto my exhaust in my kitfox...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323465#323465
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Howdy Moose,
The vent lines need to be in the same general area so they pick up the same pressure
to balance the carbs and if the engine were to shake hard for any reason
sometimes you can get some fuel down them and that's why you don't want the vent
lines on top of an exhaust and having a drip tray under them can help. The
drip trays aren't there for the vent lines usually, but for things like a leaking
float bowl gasket which can be common. I always keep a couple of float bowl
gaskets lying around. Easy to replace. The drip trays provide a barrier between
any fuel that comes out of a carb which is usually right above the exhaust.
I would leave them alone. If you're flying you won't know the carbs are leaking
until after you're on the ground and for many of us you won't know unless
you pull the cowl.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323469#323469
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
Roger,
What is your take on Lucien's idea of running the carb vent lines back into
the air filters on a 912 UL?
Hugh McKay
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Lee
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 4:15 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rough Running 912
Howdy Moose,
The vent lines need to be in the same general area so they pick up the same
pressure to balance the carbs and if the engine were to shake hard for any
reason sometimes you can get some fuel down them and that's why you don't
want the vent lines on top of an exhaust and having a drip tray under them
can help. The drip trays aren't there for the vent lines usually, but for
things like a leaking float bowl gasket which can be common. I always keep a
couple of float bowl gaskets lying around. Easy to replace. The drip trays
provide a barrier between any fuel that comes out of a carb which is usually
right above the exhaust. I would leave them alone. If you're flying you
won't know the carbs are leaking until after you're on the ground and for
many of us you won't know unless you pull the cowl.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323469#323469
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
hgmckay wrote:
> Roger,
>
> What is your take on Lucien's idea of running the carb vent lines back into
> the air filters on a 912 UL?
>
> Hugh McKay
>
> --
For what it's worth, I didn't make this up. This requirement on the vent lines
is in the installation manual for the 912 series.
There's a diagram in there showing the lines being routed to nipples on the airbox
for illustration purposes, but without the box you kind of have to invent
your method.
Like I said, at my altitude my carbs definitely ran too rich before the fix (EGTs
in the 1100's !) so I'm convinced! ;)
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323481#323481
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Rotax likes them run into a common area like an airbox with the same pressure gradient
going to each carb. If you had let's say one large filter then the lines
running in there would be better than into two separate filters. While his
is certainly better than many and by no means bad the best would be to put them
out of all air streams and setup to a common point. There could be a possible
air pressure difference between two carbs, probably small, that could change
things slightly. It might be from maybe someone over oiling one filter compared
to the other with a K&N or the way the engine is set up under a cowl. Nothing
wrong with his setup and there are worse things done to vent lines out there,
but if you wanted to tweak it a little better a common airbox is better.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323488#323488
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Lucien, I wasn't in on the discussion on the Kolb forum, but I took the time
to read Section 15 and 16 of the installation manual and what it says is
that the carb vents must be routed to a vacuum and ram air free zone. The
air box supplies this, the air filter does not. Letting them just hang,
secured by the float bowl bale is a perfectly acceptable option.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 4:57 PM, lucien wrote:
> lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>
>
>
> hgmckay wrote:
> > Roger,
> >
> > What is your take on Lucien's idea of running the carb vent lines back
> into
> > the air filters on a 912 UL?
> >
> > Hugh McKay
> >
> > --
>
>
> For what it's worth, I didn't make this up. This requirement on the vent
> lines is in the installation manual for the 912 series.
>
> There's a diagram in there showing the lines being routed to nipples on the
> airbox for illustration purposes, but without the box you kind of have to
> invent your method.
>
> Like I said, at my altitude my carbs definitely ran too rich before the fix
> (EGTs in the 1100's !) so I'm convinced! ;)
>
> LS
>
> --------
> LS
> Titan II SS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323481#323481
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
rickofudall wrote:
> Lucien, I wasn't in on the discussion on the Kolb forum, but I took the time
to read Section 15 and 16 of the installation manual and what it says is that
the carb vents must be routed to a vacuum and ram air free zone. The air box supplies
this, the air filter does not. Letting them just hang, secured by the
float bowl bale is a perfectly acceptable option.
>
> Rick Girard
>
Not at my altitudes it isn't. Fortunately 15.1 does clarify the issue a bit - it
also says:
"Pressure differences between intake pressure and pressure in the carburetor chambers
may lead to engine malfunction due to incorrect fuel supply."
That effectively means the vent lines should be at the same atmospheric pressure
(or in the same atmosphere) as the venturis. There is a pressure difference,
tho pretty small, between the outside of the airfilter and the inside. So, if
you have the choice, the lines really need to be routed to the inside. If you
have the airbox, the requirement is very clear, with the diagram, etc.
Now, the interesting thing is it doesn't really show up at sea level. My plane
was originally in Nebraska; the mixture was fine down there with EGT's up to about
1400 with the lines run down the sides into the bales in the usual way. I
guess the effect isn't that significant there. So it's normally not a problem
and the carbs still compensate pretty well.
But when I got it up here after the ferry mission there was a BIG difference -
my EGT's were barely out of the 1100's. And the plugs were starting to get fuel
fouled after about the first 20 hours or so after getting it here. I later learned
about the correct placement of the lines and after the mod that put the
mixture back to practically normal. My EGT's run about 1250 to 1350, a lot closer
to where they should be. Still slightly rich but definitely about the expected
temps for my altitudes and no more fouled plugs.
So in my view, it really is something you want to comply with if you fly at high
altitudes. At sea level, yeah, it's probably not that big of a deal....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323500#323500
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
FWIW, the standard vent line location for the Bing 94 CV carb on Jabiru engines,
similar to the Bing 64 carbs on the 912 series, is to the inside of the K&N
filter if the engine is not fitted with an airbox. Mine, and every other Bing
94 I've seen without an airbox, has a 90 degree elbow fitted into the end of the
K&N filter with the vent line connected to that.
I know Jabiru and Rotax are different, but functionally, the Bing 64 and 94 carbs
are essentially identical and require the same venting. Without an air-box,
the only way to ensure the proper vent line location (in my opinion) is to route
it into the filter. I would suggest it is even more important on a Rotax since
they have two carbs with critical balance requirements.
I doubt seriously that this would cause rough running symptoms but it is a factor
that should be dealt with properly, if for no other reason than to eliminate
it from the mix of variables.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323520#323520
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
Thom, Lucien:
This discussion is very interesting. My 912 UL came new from Rotax with the
carb vent lines neatly tucked behind the bowl clip and run down to just
above the little pans under the carb bowl. I now have 400+ hours on the
engine. I may be mistaken (or just ignorant of the fact) but to my knowledge
Rotax doesn't address this issue at all. I fly from a field elevation of
1035 ft. msl, and fly down to sea level on numerous occasions, and then at
times up to 8500 ft. msl to cross over the Appalachian mountains. I have not
had any obvious engine/carb problems that I know of. However I do notice
that when changing plugs they seem to be too "black", and not the nice
"brown" color everyone talks about. So Thom, if I am hearing you correctly,
in your opinion I should route each vent line back into it's respective air
filter. Did you do this on your old 912 UL (The Allegro 2000), and if so how
did you do it? Did you ever operate the engine with the vent lines as they
come standard from Rotax?
Hugh McKay
-----Original Message-----
From: Thom Riddle
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 8:01 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rough Running 912
FWIW, the standard vent line location for the Bing 94 CV carb on Jabiru
engines, similar to the Bing 64 carbs on the 912 series, is to the inside of
the K&N filter if the engine is not fitted with an airbox. Mine, and every
other Bing 94 I've seen without an airbox, has a 90 degree elbow fitted into
the end of the K&N filter with the vent line connected to that.
I know Jabiru and Rotax are different, but functionally, the Bing 64 and 94
carbs are essentially identical and require the same venting. Without an
air-box, the only way to ensure the proper vent line location (in my
opinion) is to route it into the filter. I would suggest it is even more
important on a Rotax since they have two carbs with critical balance
requirements.
I doubt seriously that this would cause rough running symptoms but it is a
factor that should be dealt with properly, if for no other reason than to
eliminate it from the mix of variables.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323520#323520
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
hgmckay wrote:
> Thom, Lucien:
>
> This discussion is very interesting. My 912 UL came new from Rotax with the
> carb vent lines neatly tucked behind the bowl clip and run down to just
> above the little pans under the carb bowl. I now have 400+ hours on the
> engine. I may be mistaken (or just ignorant of the fact) but to my knowledge
> Rotax doesn't address this issue at all. I fly from a field elevation of
> 1035 ft. msl, and fly down to sea level on numerous occasions, and then at
> times up to 8500 ft. msl to cross over the Appalachian mountains. I have not
> had any obvious engine/carb problems that I know of. However I do notice
> that when changing plugs they seem to be too "black", and not the nice
> "brown" color everyone talks about. So Thom, if I am hearing you correctly,
> in your opinion I should route each vent line back into it's respective air
> filter. Did you do this on your old 912 UL (The Allegro 2000), and if so how
> did you do it? Did you ever operate the engine with the vent lines as they
> come standard from Rotax?
>
> Hugh McKay
>
> --
Yeah, this is a little-known fact of the Bing 64's. Like I said, mis-installed
lines don't seem to create a noticeable problem at lower altitudes. Also, since
the airbox is often eliminated and filters only are used, it's just one of those
installation errors that kind of goes unnoticed.
The installation manual is, of course, the oh-so-wonderful translation from German,
so a lot of the wording in it just sounds strange and isn't entirely clear.
Now why Bing chose to design the carb that way, who knows. It seems kind of silly
to me but carbs are kind of black magic anyway so I just follow the instructions
and hope for the best ;).
BTW, as jetted from the factory, there's a rich spot in the 2000 to 3500 rpm range
and the factory idle mix setting of 1.5 turns is, in my experience, overly
rich (and WAY too rich at my altitude). So black plugs after an extended idle
back to the hangar is kind of par for the course.
The thing I look for is a nice, antique white baffle in the exhaust which indicates
adequately lean running at full power. I check this with a flashlight at
my post-flight every time.....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323541#323541
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rotax Oil Filters changing, new part number assigned |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Revision #2
New oil filter part number correction
by XatorMan under ROTAX PRESS RELEASESRotax has just released the informaiton on
the oil filter minor changes. In the release they inadvertently gave out the
wrong part numbers. Owners and operators and service providers will be recieving
the new filters under 2 different part numbers, depending on the ordering
scope. (by bulk or individual) Please note the following change from the release
of December 3rd.
Part number 825710 and 825712, changed to 825010 and 825012 respectivly. This will
be the new numbers the filter will be supplied with.
It is worth repeating that all users should check the installaitons and confirm
that the small change in the length of the filter, as shown in the drawing supplied
from December 3rd, be verified. While it is not anticipated that this will
have any ill effects the clearance, especially to the exhaust system on number
2 cylinder, has to be considered.
Contact your independent Rotax distributor or independent Rotax Service Centre
for any additional information.
Drawing is not to scale:
No tagsLeave a Commentmore...
3
Dec/10
Revision #1
Rotax Oil Filters changing, new part number assigned
by XatorMan under ROTAX PRESS RELEASESRotax; BRP-Powertrain, is making a minor
change on the oil filter for ROTAX 912 and 914 Series engines.
Production of the current oil filters part no. 825704 and 825706 has been discontinued,
once stock is depleted they will be not longer available.
The replacement filters will have a new part no. 825710 and 825712, internally
they are the same and they have been approved from engineering, however one small
change has to be noted. The overall length has increased about 3.5 mm ( .138
) due to the production process. For detailed dimensions see attached sketch.
OEM and end use customers need to check and make sure they have clearance and make
any necessary changes to accommodate this new filter. The part will be coming
in the first quarter of 2011.
New production filter for 9 Series Rotax engines, early 2011
- Image provided as a reference only. Image is not to scale.
new oil filter, rotax
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323550#323550
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ROBERT LINDSAY" <rlindsa2(at)san.rr.com> |
I have a Czech made (Woodward type) governor which works fine in the air
controlling my C/S Whirlwind prop on a Rotax 914 (almost 600 hrs). But
recently I have not been able to get an rpm drop during a pre-TO check
at 4000 rpm. Oil is clean and warm. Even a post flight check results
in no rpm drop when cockpit control is fully retarded.
Any ideas before I start de-cowl and disassemble?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Hugh,
We ran our Allegro with vent lines tucked into the float-bowl bail too for the
entire time we owned it, with no problems either. It is not essential to change
that in any way as long as you don't have any really odd airflow under the cowl
and therefore unusual pressure distributions. However, routing the vent line
to the inside of the air filter is the way that Jabiru does theirs and it does
eliminate any spurious pressure issues that might arise in some installations.
As Lucien said, black plugs are common after a few minutes of low rpm running.
The only way to get an accurate plug reading on engines with Bing CV carbs is
to cut the engine off at altitude at cruise rpm, do a dead stick landing and check
the plugs. I am not recommending this, of course, though I have done it myself.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323600#323600
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
Thom,
Thanks. Based on my operating experience and engine performance to date, I
see no reason to start re-routing my vent lines. However, the information
gleaned from the input from you and Lucien has been very helpful in better
understanding the operating characteristics of the 912 UL.
Hugh McKay
Maiden, NC
Allegro 2000
Rotax 912 UL
-----Original Message-----
From: Thom Riddle
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 4:04 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rough Running 912
Hugh,
We ran our Allegro with vent lines tucked into the float-bowl bail too for
the entire time we owned it, with no problems either. It is not essential to
change that in any way as long as you don't have any really odd airflow
under the cowl and therefore unusual pressure distributions. However,
routing the vent line to the inside of the air filter is the way that Jabiru
does theirs and it does eliminate any spurious pressure issues that might
arise in some installations.
As Lucien said, black plugs are common after a few minutes of low rpm
running. The only way to get an accurate plug reading on engines with Bing
CV carbs is to cut the engine off at altitude at cruise rpm, do a dead stick
landing and check the plugs. I am not recommending this, of course, though I
have done it myself.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323600#323600
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Happy First Flight Day |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Wilbur Wright invented flight controls, with Orville invented aircraft
propeller theory, and developed the first real flight test program. Until
1908 all the others were just jumping off the roof with an umbrella. Happy
First Flight Day folks.
Rick Girard
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rough Running 912 |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
Thom Riddle wrote:
> Hugh,
> We ran our Allegro with vent lines tucked into the float-bowl bail too for the
entire time we owned it, with no problems either. It is not essential to change
that in any way as long as you don't have any really odd airflow under the
cowl and therefore unusual pressure distributions. However, routing the vent
line to the inside of the air filter is the way that Jabiru does theirs and it
does eliminate any spurious pressure issues that might arise in some installations.
>
> As Lucien said, black plugs are common after a few minutes of low rpm running.
The only way to get an accurate plug reading on engines with Bing CV carbs is
to cut the engine off at altitude at cruise rpm, do a dead stick landing and
check the plugs. I am not recommending this, of course, though I have done it
myself.
BTW, another way that I mentioned before that you can do without pulling the plugs
is just examining your exhaust baffles. What I've found is the high-power
mixture will be reflected in a baffle, but a rough gauge of what you're getting
at low power settings will collect on inside of the exhaust outlet.
I.e. the exhaust pipe will usually have a fair buildup of black soot but the exhaust
baffle will hopefully be a light antique white.
When I was doing my carb sync after getting my rebuilt carbs back a few months
ago, I did a lot of running at idle and 2000 to 3000 on the ground. The baffle
inside my exhaust got pretty tarred&feathered with soot. but after going up and
doing a few touch and goes the baffles were nice and white when I got back
down.
The other discovery is that when I finally got the idle mix set on the "knee",
the idle EGT's ended up around 1050 to 1100F. I was at about 800 to 900F before,
which I didn't know was just slobbering rich.... The idle speed also came up
about 50 rpm as I leaned out the mix.
Course this is all at my 7000' MSL and the density altitude is usually 8000' or
more, so you kind of have to make adjustments like this up here.
At sea level, you're pretty much just bolt the motor on and don't screw with it....
Oh PS: the fight I started on the Kolb list wasn't about the 912 vent lines (it
was about the 2-stroke pulse line length).
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323650#323650
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Happy First Flight Day |
| From: | "Geoff Heap" <stol10(at)comcast.net> |
102 years ago. Phew......Geoff
--------
Dual controls. Dynon 180. Icom 210 Garmin 296. Becker transponder. Sigtronics intercom.
Electric flaperons.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323903#323903
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Fasching" <n29cx(at)ridgeviewtel.us> |
| Subject: | Octane degrading with storage time |
Are there any real octane enhansers readily available? I get the
impression that the ones generally advertised are pretty much 'snake
oil'
Second question: what lowering of octane rating can you expect in the
real world? In other words, how long is 91-octane 'good' in a 912uls?
Thanks for your views.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912ULS Oil Pressure Sender |
| From: | "moosepileit" <rklarich(at)gmail.com> |
Bump on the topic of Oil Pressure Sender, there are a few threads on this, I chose
this one.
Have a Rotax 912 UL running the Standard VDO Oil Pressure Sender 360-004, or 29/12
stamping on the hex.
W/ a MGL E-1 engine system, I started getting high (100+) and Low (20 ish) oil
pressure indications w/ an engine at normal temps.
Checked the connections- sender, 1 wire to distro block for MGL, and wire from
block. All fine.
Got a $15 direct gauge at car parts store, installed (15 minutes) and ground run-
all normal. (Old ball pressure regulator, 1994 era 4,152,xxx serial number).
Found these ohm values today on the net:
pressure sender
In my search for info while overcoming the fluctuating oil pressure problems, I
managed to obtain the correct resistance readings for the VDO sensor at various
pressures. In case they may be of use to others in their trouble shooting I
repeat them here.
VDO 0 - 10 bar oil pressure sensor, Bar psi Resistance (Ohm's)
0 = 0 = 7.2
0.5 = 7 = 18.2
1 = 14.5 = 28.2
1.5 = 21.75 = 39.2
2 = 29 = 49.2
3 = 43.5 = 68.2
4 = 58 = 87.2
5 = 72.5 = 104.2
6 = 87 = 121.2
7 = 101.5 = 137.2
8 = 116 = 153.2
8.5 = 123 = 160.2
9 = 130.5 = 167.2
10 = 145 = 181.2
Cobbles a set of fittings together to air and rang out the sender from 0 to 8 Bar,
all good. Looks like the sender I just ordered for $35 will be my spare.
I'll re-install the old sender and add an extra ground ring to a good common
ground and see if it was a ground issue all along.
You will find guidance to use no thread sealant, threadlocker 243 or thread sealant
in different places...
I also now have a way to check if the new sender is good when it arrives.
Now, for fun, I'll make a shaker to check the sender under vibration- supposedly
the reason these senders don't last if the shaking on a plane vs a car, plus
the variation in pressures seen and the surge types.
Hope this helps someone out!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323954#323954
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Octane degrading with storage time |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi John,
I wouldn't keep fuel longer that 4 weeks. That's what Rotax recommends. No matter
what type of container you store fuel in it will evaporate and or have octane
degradation and loose other additives. Don't store any more than you will use
in that time and don't fill your plane up if you plan on letting it set for
months. If you plan on not flying for a couple of months just drain the fuel
at a low point bleed. Octane booster won't work for us and unless you feel like
throwing the dice with $10-$12k in rebuild cost then just use fresh fuel. It
will drop down to to 87-88 octane before you know it. If that happens either
drain and put fresh 91 oct. in or add at least 50% of 100LL.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323978#323978
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Fasching" <n29cx(at)ridgeviewtel.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Octane degrading with storage time |
Thanks, Roger. I was not looking to increase octane in the mogas (91) but
wondered about 'rejuvenating' 91 that has been in the plane longer than I
would be comfortable with...says something over 3 weeks. If the weather
would cooperate I could keep the gas fresh by simply flying a lot, which is
what I want to do, but winds have been so darn bad of late that flying
wasn't worth the beating you'd take doing it. I will note your
recomendations and follow them. Thank you.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 7:29 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Octane degrading with storage time
>
> Hi John,
>
> I wouldn't keep fuel longer that 4 weeks. That's what Rotax recommends. No
> matter what type of container you store fuel in it will evaporate and or
> have octane degradation and loose other additives. Don't store any more
> than you will use in that time and don't fill your plane up if you plan on
> letting it set for months. If you plan on not flying for a couple of
> months just drain the fuel at a low point bleed. Octane booster won't work
> for us and unless you feel like throwing the dice with $10-$12k in rebuild
> cost then just use fresh fuel. It will drop down to to 87-88 octane before
> you know it. If that happens either drain and put fresh 91 oct. in or add
> at least 50% of 100LL.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323978#323978
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Octane degrading with storage time |
?I have been flying a 912S for about 7 years now. I have had gas in the
plane for longer than 4 weeks. As soon as I buy gas, I add Stabil to it even
if I plan to fly that day. I have never had a problem. I have never seen any
varnishing in my float bowls. My engine has never even hiccupped. I learned
this at a Rotax seminar taught by Phill Lockwood.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Fasching
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Octane degrading with storage time
Thanks, Roger. I was not looking to increase octane in the mogas (91) but
wondered about 'rejuvenating' 91 that has been in the plane longer than I
would be comfortable with...says something over 3 weeks. If the weather
would cooperate I could keep the gas fresh by simply flying a lot, which is
what I want to do, but winds have been so darn bad of late that flying
wasn't worth the beating you'd take doing it. I will note your
recomendations and follow them. Thank you.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 7:29 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Octane degrading with storage time
>
> Hi John,
>
> I wouldn't keep fuel longer that 4 weeks. That's what Rotax recommends. No
> matter what type of container you store fuel in it will evaporate and or
> have octane degradation and loose other additives. Don't store any more
> than you will use in that time and don't fill your plane up if you plan on
> letting it set for months. If you plan on not flying for a couple of
> months just drain the fuel at a low point bleed. Octane booster won't work
> for us and unless you feel like throwing the dice with $10-$12k in rebuild
> cost then just use fresh fuel. It will drop down to to 87-88 octane before
> you know it. If that happens either drain and put fresh 91 oct. in or add
> at least 50% of 100LL.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323978#323978
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Octane degrading with storage time |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
I've heard this "octane degrades over time" story a lot over the years. Several
years ago I researched this and found (and lost) a petroleum engineer's explanation
of how gasoline goes bad over time. He explained all of this in layman's
terms and debunked the "octane degrades" part, i.e. octane does not degrade.
However, gasoline does go bad for other reasons. I wish I could find this but
have failed to do so, so far but will keep looking.
However, I did find the following which I believe to be a reliable authoritative
source (but can't guarantee that) which does not even mention octane but does
describe how gasoline does go bad over time.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2668/why-does-gasoline-go-stale-so-quickly
As this source recommends, I have been adding Sta-bil to my stored gasoline beginning
in the late fall when my flying frequency falls off dramatically. It works
well in my experience.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324000#324000
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Octane degrading with storage time |
John,
I too always add Sta-bil to my fuel and it does help. .In the past I
sometimes had run-on at engine shutdown with my 912 when I had "vintage' fuel in
my tanks. It acted like an old car with bad gas. As an experiment I added
Lucas brand octane booster to the fuel and it stopped that from happening.I
have actually done this on a few occasions and for that reason I will say
octane booster does work. Some brands contain alcohol so if you were decide to
try it be selective as to the brand.
Best option of course is to have fresh gas but if I can't fly for awhile
,I would use the booster . There is an unknown here and that is octane
booster chenicals and its effect on fiberglas tanks(in my case)
Dick Maddux
912UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com> |
=EF=BB
I had a guy tell me that his mechanic said that after he flies his
plane, he should run the prop through and burp the engine again just
like before flight. He said if you don=99t do it, oil will collect
in the cylinders. Has anyone been told to do this? On my plane my oil
tank is above the engine. One time, after not flying the plane for about
2 weeks, I took out a spark plug at the lowest point on the engine. Some
oil dripped out. I had not run the prop through first like I would if I
was going to start it. Is any of this a problem? The mechanic said it is
not good for the oil to be there but I didn=99t think it was a
problem if you run the prop through to burping before start.
Any thoughts?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: engine burping |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
[quote="m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.c"]I had a guy tell me that his mechanic said
that after he flies his plane, he should run the prop through and burp the engine
again just like before flight. He said if you dont do it, oil will collect
in the cylinders. Has anyone been told to do this? On my plane my oil tank
is above the engine. One time, after not flying the plane for about 2 weeks,
I took out a spark plug at the lowest point on the engine. Some oil dripped
out. I had not run the prop through first like I would if I was going to start
it. Is any of this a problem? The mechanic said it is not good for the oil
to be there but I didnt think it was a problem if you run the prop through to
burping before start.
Any thoughts?
Usually I don't think enough oil collects in the crankcase for this to happen,
but I guess that could depend on the installation. If it does, I don't see why
not to burp it after the flight.
Is your oil return line in the hole at the lowest point? I.e. if cyls 1-2 are low
when the plane is at rest, the oil return line banjo fitting should be in the
hole in the crankcase nearest the gearbox....
But yeah this is familar with any flat four. My VW's would sometimes collect oil
in the cylinders if I parked it on the side of a hill....
LS
> [b]
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324661#324661
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | New flywheel hub for 912 series |
| From: | "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr> |
Hi all,
Rotax has recently introduced a new fly wheel hub with lengthened trigger cams
which change the ignition timing during starting. This is described in SI-912-020
R4, section 74-00-00, page 1 and 4. With the new hub, ignition timing during
the starting phase will be 3 degrees after TDC instead of 4 degrees before
TDC. I am very interested in doing this mod on my 912ULS as it should prevent
any possibility of kicking back.
However I am puzzled by the dimensions shown on the drawing on page 4. The drawing
says the old cams are 22 mm long and the new ones are 29 mm long. I measured
the length of the cams on my 6 year old engine: they are 30 mm long! I also
did the maths: the radius of the flywheel cams is 78 mm, so 1 degree rotation
moves the cam edges 1.36 mm. From 4 to 26 degrees, that is 22 degrees difference,
the length should be 1.36x22=29.95. So i believe my hub is good and the
Rotax drawing is wrong.
I have 2 questions:
- to anyone who has access to the back of his engine: could you please remove the
3 screws which hold the plastic cover and measure the developed length of
the cams.
- to any one who has the new flywheel hub: please do the same. According to the
SI, engines fitted with the new flywheel hub start with the following serial
numbers:
912S: from S/N 4,923,847
912ULS and ULSFR: from 6,775,360
Waiting for your answers
Regards
Remi Guerner
Europa F-FGKL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324673#324673
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/new_fly_wheel_hub_156.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/new_fly_wheel_hub_987.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com> |
| Subject: | EIS 4000 connections |
Hope everyone is having a great holiday break and enjoying the season!
As I am home this week I'm finishing up some of my last electrical connections
to the 912s. The wiring hasn't been too bad, just tedious as most know.
I am using a Grand Rapids 4000 EIS and would like to tap into those who are
familiar with the CHT connections.( I called GR, but they are enjoying the week
off as well.) The EGT connections are straight forward because each bayonet
probe (that goes into an exhaust pipe) has two wires to plug into. There are 2
CHT probes provided on the 912s at cylinders 2 and 3. My question develops due
to having two CHT wires (per cylinder head) to be connected with onlyone fast-on
connection provided at the engine.
So the question is...How is the connection made? The GR manual was very specific
indicating that the two (dis-similar metal) wires be used to properly allow the
thermocouple to send correct info...
My common sence (sometimes not so common :>) tells me one of the wires goes to
ground...but I don't want to guess at this.
Any help would be appreciated.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> |
| Subject: | EIS 4000 connections |
The Rotax CHT probes are not thermocouples (with a plus and minus lead).
They are resistors whose resistance varies (inversely) with heat (also known
as Negative Temperature Coefficient or NTC probes). One side of the resistor
grounds through the body of the probe to the head. Check the GRT site for
Rotax-specific information or general information on connecting resistive
probes, resistive water temperature senders or NTC probes. The same kind of
probes are used for oil temperature.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan
Billingsley
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 9:43 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: EIS 4000 connections
Hope everyone is having a great holiday break and enjoying the season!
As I am home this week I'm finishing up some of my last electrical
connections
to the 912s. The wiring hasn't been too bad, just tedious as most know.
I am using a Grand Rapids 4000 EIS and would like to tap into those who are
familiar with the CHT connections.( I called GR, but they are enjoying the
week
off as well.) The EGT connections are straight forward because each bayonet
probe (that goes into an exhaust pipe) has two wires to plug into. There are
2
CHT probes provided on the 912s at cylinders 2 and 3. My question develops
due
to having two CHT wires (per cylinder head) to be connected with onlyone
fast-on
connection provided at the engine.
So the question is...How is the connection made? The GR manual was very
specific
indicating that the two (dis-similar metal) wires be used to properly allow
the
thermocouple to send correct info...
My common sence (sometimes not so common :>) tells me one of the wires goes
to
ground...but I don't want to guess at this.
Any help would be appreciated.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: engine burping |
Yes,
But is it bad if some oil collects there? As I said, I always burp the
engine before start.
-----Original Message-----
From: lucien
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 11:23 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: engine burping
[quote="m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.c"]I had a guy tell me that his mechanic
said that after he flies his plane, he should run the prop through and burp
the engine again just like before flight. He said if you dont do it, oil
will collect in the cylinders. Has anyone been told to do this? On my plane
my oil tank is above the engine. One time, after not flying the plane for
about 2 weeks, I took out a spark plug at the lowest point on the engine.
Some oil dripped out. I had not run the prop through first like I would if
I was going to start it. Is any of this a problem? The mechanic said it is
not good for the oil to be there but I didnt think it was a problem if
you run the prop through to burping before start.
Any thoughts?
Usually I don't think enough oil collects in the crankcase for this to
happen, but I guess that could depend on the installation. If it does, I
don't see why not to burp it after the flight.
Is your oil return line in the hole at the lowest point? I.e. if cyls 1-2
are low when the plane is at rest, the oil return line banjo fitting should
be in the
hole in the crankcase nearest the gearbox....
But yeah this is familar with any flat four. My VW's would sometimes collect
oil in the cylinders if I parked it on the side of a hill....
LS
> [b]
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324661#324661
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EIS 4000 connections |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Dan, See the Installation Manual, Chapter 21 page 127. The CHT sensor is
grounded through the engine block.
Rick Girard
On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Dan Billingsley wrote:
> dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
>
> Hope everyone is having a great holiday break and enjoying the season!
> As I am home this week I'm finishing up some of my last electrical
> connections
> to the 912s. The wiring hasn't been too bad, just tedious as most know.
> I am using a Grand Rapids 4000 EIS and would like to tap into those who are
> familiar with the CHT connections.( I called GR, but they are enjoying the
> week
> off as well.) The EGT connections are straight forward because each bayonet
> probe (that goes into an exhaust pipe) has two wires to plug into. There
> are 2
> CHT probes provided on the 912s at cylinders 2 and 3. My question develops
> due
> to having two CHT wires (per cylinder head) to be connected with onlyone
> fast-on
> connection provided at the engine.
> So the question is...How is the connection made? The GR manual was very
> specific
> indicating that the two (dis-similar metal) wires be used to properly allow
> the
> thermocouple to send correct info...
> My common sence (sometimes not so common :>) tells me one of the wires goes
> to
> ground...but I don't want to guess at this.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: engine burping |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Never ever heard of burping the engine after a flight. Doesn't make any sense.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324693#324693
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EIS 4000 connections |
Richard,=0A-I have been reading that page, however it does not indicate a
nywhere as to =0Ausing just one wire coming from the EIS...and if so, which
one? Would I just cut =0Athe second one off? The manual is vague.=0A=0A=0A
>=0A>From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>=0A>To: rotaxengines-list@ma
tronics.com=0A>Sent: Mon, December 27, 2010 12:42:15 PM=0A>Subject: Re: Rot
axEngines-List: EIS 4000 connections=0A>=0A>Dan, See the Installation Manua
l, Chapter 21 page 127. The CHT sensor is =0A>grounded through the engine b
lock. =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Rick Girard=0A>=0A>=0A>On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 11:42
AM, Dan Billingsley =0A>wrote:=0A>=0A>--> Rotax
Engines-List message posted by: Dan Billingsley =0A><dan@azshowersolutions.
com>=0A>>=0A>>Hope everyone is having a great holiday break and enjoying th
e season!=0A>>As I am home this week I'm finishing up some of my last elect
rical connections=0A>>to the 912s. The wiring hasn't been too bad, just ted
ious as most know.=0A>>I am using a Grand Rapids 4000 EIS and would like to
tap into those who are=0A>>familiar with the CHT connections.( I called GR
, but they are enjoying the =0Aweek=0A>>off as well.) The EGT connections a
re straight forward because each bayonet=0A>>probe (that goes into an exhau
st pipe) has two wires to plug into. There are 2=0A>>CHT probes provided on
the 912s at cylinders 2 and 3. My question develops due=0A>>to having two
CHT wires (per cylinder head) to be connected with onlyone =0A>fast-on=0A>>
connection provided at the engine.=0A>>So the question is...How is the conn
ection made? The GR manual was very =0A>specific=0A>>indicating that the tw
o (dis-similar metal) wires be used to properly allow =0Athe=0A>>thermocoup
le to send correct info...=0A>>My common sence (sometimes not so common :>)
tells me one of the wires goes to=0A>>ground...but I don't want to guess a
t this.=0A>>=0A>>Any help would be appreciated.=0A>>=0A>>======
======0A>>="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com=0A>>ooks.com" target
="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com=0A>>et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
=0A>>="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A>>le, List Admin.
=0A>>============0A>>-List" target="_blank">http://
www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List=0A>>========
====0A>>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>>=========
===0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=0A>=0A>-- =0A>=0A>Zulu Delta=0A>Kolb Mk IIIC
=0A>582 Gray head=0A>4.00 C gearbox=0A>3 blade WD=0A>Thanks, Homer GBYM=0A>
=0A>=0A>It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to
be unable to =0A>imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.=0A>---G
= =0A>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: engine burping |
?That is exactly what I thought. I was just wondering if anyone else has
heard of this. I try to keep up with procedures. I have been flying this
912s for about 8 years now and never heard that.
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Lee
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 2:46 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: engine burping
Never ever heard of burping the engine after a flight. Doesn't make any
sense.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324693#324693
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: engine burping |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Is the person making this recommendation an A & P by chance? As Roger said,
it doesn't make any sense. The engine has its own motion to "burp" the
engine while it was running. If it were to collect oil in the crankcase tha
t
quickly after shut down, I'd be suspicious of the condition of the engine o
r
its installation.
While it's remote, their is one thing that might make burping a hot engine
dangerous. If there were a hot spark plug, i.e. acting like a glow plug, or
a bit of carbon doing the same, the engine could kick back. Like I said the
chances are remote, but they aren't zero.
Rick Girard
On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Matt Tucciarone
wrote:
> m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com>
>
> =EF=BBYes,
> But is it bad if some oil collects there? As I said, I always burp the
> engine before start.
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: lucien
> Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 11:23 AM
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: engine burping
>
> lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>
>
> [quote="m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.c"]I had a guy tell me that his mechani
c
> said that after he flies his plane, he should run the prop through and b
urp
> the engine again just like before flight. He said if you don=C3=A2=82
=AC=84=A2t do it, oil
> will collect in the cylinders. Has anyone been told to do this? On my pl
ane
> my oil tank is above the engine. One time, after not flying the plane fo
r
> about 2 weeks, I took out a spark plug at the lowest point on the engine
.
> Some oil dripped out. I had not run the prop through first like I would
if
> I was going to start it. Is any of this a problem? The mechanic said it
is
> not good for the oil to be there but I didn=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t thi
nk it was a problem if
> you run the prop through to burping before start.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>
> Usually I don't think enough oil collects in the crankcase for this to
> happen, but I guess that could depend on the installation. If it does, I
> don't see why not to burp it after the flight.
>
> Is your oil return line in the hole at the lowest point? I.e. if cyls 1-2
> are low when the plane is at rest, the oil return line banjo fitting shou
ld
> be in the
> hole in the crankcase nearest the gearbox....
>
> But yeah this is familar with any flat four. My VW's would sometimes
> collect oil in the cylinders if I parked it on the side of a hill....
>
> LS
>
>
> [b]
>>
>
>
> --------
> LS
> Titan II SS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324661#324661
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unabl
e
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: engine burping |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
I have heard of folks checking their oil after flight and if OK and as long as
they don't see a big puddle under the plane they go flying without checking the
oil.
Is it possible that's what was meant?
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324707#324707
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: engine burping |
| From: | "ronlee" <rlee468(at)comcast.net> |
I can understand burping the engine say ten minuets after shut down. During this
time the engine cools and the air in the engine shrinks causing a slight vacuum
that can suck oil back into the crankcase. I believe the only reason a person
would do that is to get an accurate oil level check.
--------
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324735#324735
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: engine burping |
Matt,
You don't need to burp your engine right after you have run it as the
engine has already done that BUT if you have a high oil tank as I do, on my
Kitfox, the oil will migrate out of the tank back down into the engine over
time. You can slow it down a bit by waiting for the engine to cool and the
oil to thicken a bit then burp the engine, I usually do this when I am
working on other projects in my hanger and do it later in the day. Then instead
of a couple of days before the oil level sinks below the min on the
dipstick it might take 4 days (as an example)
This procedure just decreases the number of revolutions you have to give
the prop when you first burp the engine because you have less oil to pump
back into the oil tank.(but really...whoopdedoo!)
Dick Maddux
912UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: engine burping |
?Thanks Dick,
I agree with you. The mechanic said that the oil that would get back in
the cylinders would be bad for the engine. I disagree and it looks like
from the response to my post that you and others disagree also.
Thanks to everyone for their input on this.
Matt
From: Catz631(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: engine burping
Matt,
You don't need to burp your engine right after you have run it as the
engine has already done that BUT if you have a high oil tank as I do, on
my Kitfox, the oil will migrate out of the tank back down into the
engine over time. You can slow it down a bit by waiting for the engine
to cool and the oil to thicken a bit then burp the engine, I usually do
this when I am working on other projects in my hanger and do it later in
the day. Then instead of a couple of days before the oil level sinks
below the min on the dipstick it might take 4 days (as an example)
This procedure just decreases the number of revolutions you have to give
the prop when you first burp the engine because you have less oil to
pump back into the oil tank.(but really...whoopdedoo!)
Dick Maddux
912UL
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EIS 4000 connections |
| From: | "h&jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net> |
Hi Dan,
You use the CHT sensors supplied by GRT. They are thermocouples. Use the red
& white wire GRT supplied to connect them to Connector B.
The Rotax (VDO) supplied sensors are resistive and could be set up as aux inputs
to the EIS if you desire.
I just unscrewed each Rotax (VDO) sensors, placed the lug of the GRT sensor under
it and rescrewed it in to secure the GRT sensor.
I also did a few checks and satisified myself that the GRT sensor indicated the
same as the Rotax (VDO) sensor.
Hope this helps.
Jim Butcher
Europa XS 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324793#324793
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EIS 4000 connections |
Thank you all for the info and ideas. I have decided to get the ring
thermocouples that fit over the spark plugs. Jim, I'm guessing these are the
"connector B" that you used?
Thanks all again,
Dan
----- Original Message ----
> From: "h&jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net>
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, December 28, 2010 7:30:55 AM
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: EIS 4000 connections
>
>
> Hi Dan,
>
> You use the CHT sensors supplied by GRT. They are thermocouples. Use the red
>& white wire GRT supplied to connect them to Connector B.
>
>
> The Rotax (VDO) supplied sensors are resistive and could be set up as aux
>inputs to the EIS if you desire.
>
>
> I just unscrewed each Rotax (VDO) sensors, placed the lug of the GRT sensor
>under it and rescrewed it in to secure the GRT sensor.
>
> I also did a few checks and satisified myself that the GRT sensor indicated the
>same as the Rotax (VDO) sensor.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Jim Butcher
> Europa XS 914
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324793#324793
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EIS 4000 connections |
Dan=0Atrouble with these is they are disturbed every time you check the plu
gs. Not =0Areliable long term imho=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_________________
_______________=0AFrom: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>=0ATo: r
otaxengines-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, 28 December, 2010 15:28:55
=0ASubject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: EIS 4000 connections=0A=0A--> RotaxE
ngines-List message posted by: Dan Billingsley =0A=0A=0AThank you all for the info and ideas. I have decided to get the rin
g =0Athermocouples that fit over the spark plugs. Jim, I'm guessing these a
re the =0A"connector B" that you used?=0AThanks all again,=0ADan=0A=0A=0A
=0A----- Original Message ----=0A> From: "h&jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net
>=0A> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com=0A> Sent: Tue, December 28, 2010
7:30:55 AM=0A> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: EIS 4000 connections=0A> =0A
et>=0A> =0A> Hi Dan,=0A> =0A> You use the CHT sensors supplied by GRT. The
y are thermocouples. Use the red =0A=0A>& white wire GRT supplied to conne
ct them to Connector B. =0A>=0A> =0A> The Rotax (VDO) supplied sensors ar
e resistive and could be set up as aux =0A>inputs to the EIS if you desire.
=0A>=0A> =0A> I just unscrewed each Rotax (VDO) sensors, placed the lug
of the GRT sensor =0A>under it and rescrewed it in to secure the GRT sensor
.=0A> =0A> I also did a few checks and satisified myself that the GRT senso
r indicated the =0A>=0A>same as the Rotax (VDO) sensor.=0A> =0A> Hope this
helps.=0A> =0A> Jim Butcher=0A> Europa XS 914=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Read
this topic online here:=0A> =0A> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?
p=324793#324793=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A
==================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rotax 912 oil system prime and purge |
| From: | Paul Kuntz <paul.r.kuntz(at)gmail.com> |
I am completing installation of a Rotax 912UL in a Pipistrel Sinus. The
installation includes an oil temperature thermostat. I acquired an oil
priming kit from California Power Systems and am following the instructions
in the kit, as well as the video on the Rotax Owners web site. See the
links below to a couple of photos of my installation.
Oil thermostat:
http://webhosting.web.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.pipistrelbuilders.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/oil_thermostat_12.JPG&target=tlx_pic2orp
Oil cooler:
http://webhosting.web.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.pipistrelbuilders.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/Baffle_seal_1.JPG&target=tlx_picm5rc
I have a few questions:
I have applied air pressure to the oil tank and turned the prop through
until I get oil pressure and oil is coming out of the oil return line. The
oil comes out in a slow trickle. Should it be a flow with some real
volume? That is, should it gush out, or is a small trickle enough?
I don't have my engine instrumentation installed yet, so I am measuring the
resistance of the VDO sender to determine oil pressure. I get 8.1 ohms with
no pressure in the system, which corresponds reasonably well with some
calibration data that appears on this forum awhile back. I get about 45
ohms while turning the prop through, which would indicate something above 30
psi at the sender, so I seem to be getting good oil pressure.
Various sources that describe the purge procedure talk about using
"appropriate measures" to ensure that the oil circuit through the oil cooler
is filled, because the oil cooler is bypassed by the thermostat when the oil
is cold. I'm doing the purge at normal room temperature, and the person I
spoke with at CPS said that there will always be some oil passed through the
oil cooler circuit, even when the thermostat is cool. After achieving the
purge conditions described above, I tried pulling the oil hose off of the
outlet fitting on the oil cooler, expecting to find both the cooler and the
hose full of oil. What I found is evidence that oil is flowing through
there, by way of some oil dripping out of the hose, but they certainly
weren't full of oil.
So, I used a heat gun to warm up the thermostat until is was hot to the
touch, then pulled the prop through for a bunch of revolutions. This
appears to draw some more oil out of the oil tank, as evidenced by a drop in
the oil level, and some more oil came out of the return line -- perhaps a
half a cup or so during this step. Then I pulled the hose from the oil
cooler again, with the same result as before -- some oil present, but the
line is basically empty and full of air.
What should I be expecting? Are the cooler and the lines going to fill with
oil and remain full? Seems like they should. The purging instructions and
the warnings about engine damage all talk about getting rid of all air in
the system. Otherwise, if I ran the engine right now, a whole bunch of air
is going to hit the oil pump, which will be a bad thing.
I realize that by pulling the oil line from the cooler I am breaking the
system seal and introducing an air pocket, which will have to be purged out,
but until I checked that hose, it appeared to me that I had achieved the
objectives of the purge. That is, I had 30 psi of oil pressure and I had
oil coming out of the return line.
Advice?
Regards,
Paul Kuntz
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EIS 4000 connections |
| From: | "h&jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net> |
Dan,
No what I was trying to say is to use the CHT thermocouples supplied by GRT instead
of the VDO sensors that came on the engine. The CHT thermocouples came with
your EIS if you told them it was for a Rotax 912 / 914 (if you didn't, you
need to get them from GRT). They look like a large solder lug and each has a
red and a white wire attached.
They are to be bolted to the cylinder head at the same place as the Rotax supplied
VDO sensor. Either use the VDO sensor to bolt them to the head (strictly
as a bolt, not connected as a sensor) or use the metric bolt GRT supplies for
that purpose.
They are not spark plug gasket CHT thermocouples. Spark plug thermocouples do
not work well on a 912/914 since the plug is recessed into the head and therefore
difficult to fit a gasket under.
There is a diagram on Figure 5b-Connector B Wiring in the EIS manual showing where
to connect the red wire and where to connect the white wire for each sensor.
Use the crimp on connectors supplied by GRT to make the connections. So,
for the CHT sensor on cylinder head 2, connect the red wire from the sensor to
the red wire on pin 10. Likewise the white wire for CHT 2 goes to pin 22.
For cylinder head 3, the red goes to pin 8 and the white goes to pin 20.
There is also a note (page 14, bottom of section 5.2.8) about what to do with unused
CHT inputs (in your case CHT 1 & 4). To avoid bad readings, connect the
red & white wires together to make a "short".
Doe this make sense?
Jim Butcher
Europa XS 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324904#324904
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EIS 4000 connections |
Jim,
Thank you very much for the detailed response. After quite a bit of searching
and scratching for the information, I got it figured out between this group and
another site I belong to. My trouble originated due to the EIS being part of the
Kitfox kit I purchased from a second party. Not all the parts or information was
there, so I had a handicap going into it. What threw me thinking the ring
thermocouples went over the spark plugs was the install manual states that. They
did not, however, diferentiate this between engine types. Thanks again for the
information to all who responded.
Dan B
Mesa, AZ
----- Original Message ----
> From: "h&jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net>
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Wed, December 29, 2010 7:02:08 AM
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: EIS 4000 connections
>
>
> Dan,
>
> No what I was trying to say is to use the CHT thermocouples supplied by GRT
>instead of the VDO sensors that came on the engine. The CHT thermocouples came
>with your EIS if you told them it was for a Rotax 912 / 914 (if you didn't, you
>need to get them from GRT). They look like a large solder lug and each has a
>red and a white wire attached.
>
>
> They are to be bolted to the cylinder head at the same place as the Rotax
>supplied VDO sensor. Either use the VDO sensor to bolt them to the head
>(strictly as a bolt, not connected as a sensor) or use the metric bolt GRT
>supplies for that purpose.
>
>
> They are not spark plug gasket CHT thermocouples. Spark plug thermocouples do
>not work well on a 912/914 since the plug is recessed into the head and
>therefore difficult to fit a gasket under.
>
> There is a diagram on Figure 5b-Connector B Wiring in the EIS manual showing
>where to connect the red wire and where to connect the white wire for each
>sensor. Use the crimp on connectors supplied by GRT to make the connections.
>So, for the CHT sensor on cylinder head 2, connect the red wire from the sensor
>to the red wire on pin 10. Likewise the white wire for CHT 2 goes to pin 22.
>For cylinder head 3, the red goes to pin 8 and the white goes to pin 20.
>
>
> There is also a note (page 14, bottom of section 5.2.8) about what to do with
>unused CHT inputs (in your case CHT 1 & 4). To avoid bad readings, connect the
>red & white wires together to make a "short".
>
>
> Doe this make sense?
>
> Jim Butcher
> Europa XS 914
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324904#324904
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EIS 4000 connections |
Dan,
Attached is a pic of the CHT sensor from GRT installed as Jim described.
Note the bolt
holding the GRT ring terminal on. It looks like one black wire but that is
heat shrink, there is
a white wire and red wire in there.
The existing VDO CHT sensors removed are not wasted. Look at the blue cool
ant hose.
You see the fitting that I got from GRT tapped into the hose held in with
clamps. It is designed
to accept one of those VDO CHT sensors for the EIS to measure coolant temp
.
If you have sensors for a different type of engine installation, call GRT
and see if they will do a
trade for the proper sensors.
Brian Unruh
www.701builder.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EIS 4000 connections |
Thanks for the pic Brian...worth a thousand words :>)
Dan
>
>From: "ruruny(at)aol.com" <ruruny(at)aol.com>
>To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>Sent: Wed, December 29, 2010 7:29:15 PM
>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: EIS 4000 connections
>
>Dan,
>
>
>Attached is a pic of the CHT sensor from GRT installed as Jim described. Note
>the bolt
>
>holding the GRT ring terminal on. It looks like one black wire but that is heat
>shrink, there is
>a white wire and red wire in there.
>The existing VDO CHT sensors removed are not wasted. Look at the blue coolant
>hose.
>You see the fitting that I got from GRT tapped into the hose held in with
>clamps. It is designed
>to accept one of those VDO CHT sensors for the EIS to measure coolant temp.
>If you have sensors for a different type of engine installation, call GRT and
>see if they will do a
>trade for the proper sensors.
>
>
>Brian Unruh
>www.701builder.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | More engine info |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Happy New year to all of you,
Hop on over to the www.ctflier.com website under engine's and avionics or whatever you would like. Lots of info and other LSA related chat that goes on regularly. A Rotax 912 is a Rotax 912 no matter what plane it is on. On the CT Flier form they encourage all LSA. You may find so helpful info over there as well as our site here. You can just go as a guest, but can see more and do more as a registered user. Being on more than one forum may help fill in some gaps with not only our engine, but other areas on your craft. Plus everyone over there is very helpful and pleasant.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325288#325288
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | georg.stiller(at)arcor.de |
| Subject: | drop of rpm on take off |
Hi all,
I just subscribed to the list. What a great forum!
I have trouble with my 80 hp 912. Maybe someone has a good idea and can give me
some help.
Background:
912 with 150 hrs. in a Kitfox, no troubles so far, 98 octane auto fuel, alcohol
test negative, aircraft parked in heated hangar, properly drained and engine
run up, fuel always filtrated, filter visually clean, carbs freshly pneumatically
balanced, mag drop ca. 200/300 rpm (has recently deteriorated).
What happened:
Very cold outside temperature, about -15 centigrade. Max. ground rpm ca. 5000 rpm
(should be 5100, has deteriorated somewhat - under cold conditions?), acceleration
and take off normal, a couple of seconds after take off sudden drop of
rpm to ca. 4500-4600 rpm. After another couple of seconds and the engine catches
up and returns to 5000 rpm. At least, so far it always did. No problems in
cruise with 4300 rpm.
I usually take off and cruise also under these cold conditions without carb heat.
I tried a take off with carb heat and a couple of seconds after take off: rpm
drop as obove!
All this happened four or five times.
Next I plan to change the spark plugs, although they still look good and the manual
says change after 200 hrs.
Any help would be highly appreciated!
Thanks, Georg
Kitfox, 912 80 hp
Germany
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Simon Lancashire" <simon(at)design24.org.uk> |
| Subject: | drop of rpm on take off |
Georg,
I am new to this forum and have a Pulsar with an early 912. My aircraft is
low wing and has a boost pump as the fuel tanks are below the engine. Is it
possible that your problem may be due to low fuel pressure due to the angle
of incidence at the point of takeoff in the kitfox? (very nose high) The
standard Rotax pump can only suck so hard and may be o0n the limit without
help. Fuel boost pumps are inexpensive and easy to fit and i use mine always
for take-off, landing and fuel tank switching.
Good luck!
Simon, UK Pulsar XP G-BUZB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
georg.stiller(at)arcor.de
Sent: 04 January 2011 22:30
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: drop of rpm on take off
Hi all,
I just subscribed to the list. What a great forum!
I have trouble with my 80 hp 912. Maybe someone has a good idea and can give
me some help.
Background:
912 with 150 hrs. in a Kitfox, no troubles so far, 98 octane auto fuel,
alcohol test negative, aircraft parked in heated hangar, properly drained
and engine run up, fuel always filtrated, filter visually clean, carbs
freshly pneumatically balanced, mag drop ca. 200/300 rpm (has recently
deteriorated).
What happened:
Very cold outside temperature, about -15 centigrade. Max. ground rpm ca.
5000 rpm (should be 5100, has deteriorated somewhat - under cold
conditions?), acceleration and take off normal, a couple of seconds after
take off sudden drop of rpm to ca. 4500-4600 rpm. After another couple of
seconds and the engine catches up and returns to 5000 rpm. At least, so far
it always did. No problems in cruise with 4300 rpm.
I usually take off and cruise also under these cold conditions without carb
heat. I tried a take off with carb heat and a couple of seconds after take
off: rpm drop as obove!
All this happened four or five times.
Next I plan to change the spark plugs, although they still look good and the
manual says change after 200 hrs.
Any help would be highly appreciated!
Thanks, Georg
Kitfox, 912 80 hp
Germany
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: drop of rpm on take off |
Carb float bowl vents run to bottom of firewall?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stan Tew <stan_tew(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 01/04/11 |
Georg,
Warm air is rich air, cold air is lean air. At -15 C, which very few of us
experience, you could very well be getting an extremely lean mixture. This can
cause a variety of problems including but not limited to detonation and
preignition.
My suggestion would be to lower the clip/raise the needle 1 notch to richen the
mixture.
STAN 2
N29TD
________________________________
From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Wed, January 5, 2011 1:58:49 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 01/04/11
*
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Total Messages Posted Tue 01/04/11: 3
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:34 PM - drop of rpm on take off (georg.stiller(at)arcor.de)
2. 03:55 PM - Re: drop of rpm on take off (Simon Lancashire)
3. 06:33 PM - Re: drop of rpm on take off (ruruny(at)aol.com)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
From: georg.stiller(at)arcor.de
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: drop of rpm on take off
Hi all,
I just subscribed to the list. What a great forum!
I have trouble with my 80 hp 912. Maybe someone has a good idea and can give me
some help.
Background:
912 with 150 hrs. in a Kitfox, no troubles so far, 98 octane auto fuel, alcohol
test negative, aircraft parked in heated hangar, properly drained and engine
run up, fuel always filtrated, filter visually clean, carbs freshly
pneumatically
balanced, mag drop ca. 200/300 rpm (has recently deteriorated).
What happened:
Very cold outside temperature, about -15 centigrade. Max. ground rpm ca. 5000
rpm
(should be 5100, has deteriorated somewhat - under cold conditions?),
acceleration
and take off normal, a couple of seconds after take off sudden drop of
rpm to ca. 4500-4600 rpm. After another couple of seconds and the engine catches
up and returns to 5000 rpm. At least, so far it always did. No problems in
cruise with 4300 rpm.
I usually take off and cruise also under these cold conditions without carb
heat.
I tried a take off with carb heat and a couple of seconds after take off: rpm
drop as obove!
All this happened four or five times.
Next I plan to change the spark plugs, although they still look good and the
manual
says change after 200 hrs.
Any help would be highly appreciated!
Thanks, Georg
Kitfox, 912 80 hp
Germany
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
From: "Simon Lancashire" <simon(at)design24.org.uk>
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: drop of rpm on take off
Georg,
I am new to this forum and have a Pulsar with an early 912. My aircraft is
low wing and has a boost pump as the fuel tanks are below the engine. Is it
possible that your problem may be due to low fuel pressure due to the angle
of incidence at the point of takeoff in the kitfox? (very nose high) The
standard Rotax pump can only suck so hard and may be o0n the limit without
help. Fuel boost pumps are inexpensive and easy to fit and i use mine always
for take-off, landing and fuel tank switching.
Good luck!
Simon, UK Pulsar XP G-BUZB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
georg.stiller(at)arcor.de
Sent: 04 January 2011 22:30
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: drop of rpm on take off
Hi all,
I just subscribed to the list. What a great forum!
I have trouble with my 80 hp 912. Maybe someone has a good idea and can give
me some help.
Background:
912 with 150 hrs. in a Kitfox, no troubles so far, 98 octane auto fuel,
alcohol test negative, aircraft parked in heated hangar, properly drained
and engine run up, fuel always filtrated, filter visually clean, carbs
freshly pneumatically balanced, mag drop ca. 200/300 rpm (has recently
deteriorated).
What happened:
Very cold outside temperature, about -15 centigrade. Max. ground rpm ca.
5000 rpm (should be 5100, has deteriorated somewhat - under cold
conditions?), acceleration and take off normal, a couple of seconds after
take off sudden drop of rpm to ca. 4500-4600 rpm. After another couple of
seconds and the engine catches up and returns to 5000 rpm. At least, so far
it always did. No problems in cruise with 4300 rpm.
I usually take off and cruise also under these cold conditions without carb
heat. I tried a take off with carb heat and a couple of seconds after take
off: rpm drop as obove!
All this happened four or five times.
Next I plan to change the spark plugs, although they still look good and the
manual says change after 200 hrs.
Any help would be highly appreciated!
Thanks, Georg
Kitfox, 912 80 hp
Germany
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: RE: drop of rpm on take off
From: ruruny(at)aol.com
Carb float bowl vents run to bottom of firewall?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: drop of rpm on take off |
| From: | "moosepileit" <rklarich(at)gmail.com> |
I think the air may be too cold for your carb needle setting. 30 degrees C below
standard needs about as much extra fuel as when I moved my plane from 5000'
MSL to sea level.
My issues were LESS severe than yours. Setting the carb needle clips down from
#2 to #3 position (3 is normal) fixed the issue nicely.
Hopefully someone like Roger Lee can help you out.
I had sync'd my carbs just before finally isolating my issue, after moving the
clips the carbs needed only slight rebalance, then it was smiles all around.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325755#325755
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: drop of rpm on take off |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
I agree. I think he is running just a little lean so long as the mag drops are
fairly equal. Drop the clip one notch from position 3 to 4. Normal clip position
is in number 3. Position one is at the top. This will richen the mixture some
for your cold dense air. Later when it warms for the summer you can switch
back. Double check the carb balance after you switch. Let us know the results.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325783#325783
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | trouble shooting an ignition issue |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi All,
This was posted by a very knowledgeable friend of mine on another forum and is
good advise for those wanting to trouble shoot an ignition issue.
First of all I just have to say that I love ignition problems, why? Because most
of the time they can be quickly diagnosed with some very basic systematic troubleshooting,
I have to admit that I have spent some time over the years pulling
my hair over ignition issues before I developed a full proof method for diagnosing
faults.
General things to consider...
1) If one cylinder was not firing at all then when you do your mag drop at 4000rpm
you can expect to see a 400-600rpm drop
2) If two cylinders were not firing at all then when you do your drop at 4000rpm
you can expect a 900-1100rpm drop
Step 1) If you are getting a high mag drop (over 200rpm) you can pretty much rule
out it being an issue with your ignition switch ground, in most cases ignition
switch issues are never severe enough to cause more than a slight irratic
running, 98% of the time ignition switch issues lead to a complete failure of
one whole system. To clarify it's going to be one or the other.
Step 2) Try switching the black boxes, why? Because it takes all of about 15 min
and it will almost immediately rule out the single most expensive part in the
system.
Step 3) Return the black boxes to there original locations but before doing so,
grab a small ice pick and disconnect the red wires coming into the rear of the
engine. Then switch these wires a perform a test run. Ask your self does the
problem switch sides? These wires are what sends the AC voltage developed by
the stator on the rear of the engine to the black boxes to be directed to the
spark plugs. If the problem switches sides then it is an issue with the stator
( check wire resistance to ground 3.2-4.5ohms) if the problem doesn't switch
sides then the issue is "down stream " of the stator and is either in the black
boxes ( which you have already ruled out) or in the secondary coils and plugs.
Step 4) After determining that the issue lies in the secondary coils then the next
logical step is to check the resistance of both sides of the coils the primary
side being fed by the black boxes ( 0.1-0.4ohms) then test the secondary.
Step 5) check your triggers, these are located on the back of the engine and tell
the black boxes when to fire the spark, there are 4 of them that trigger a
respective secondary coil, the resistance should be 220-250 ohms for the new style,
these a rarely the problem unless there has been physical damage to them,
they are also only replaceable as a set so as much as I would love to sell you
a set please be sure that they are not working before ordering... Were trying
to be mechanics not parts changers right?
Note: the secondary coil is suppose to be between 6.1-6.7 kohms, to get this reading
rather than removing both spark plug caps, since this may hide your problem
I would leave both caps connected and test from one cap to the other (1&2T...1&2B
...3&4T...3&4B) each cap is rated at 5kohms so your readings should be
between 16.1-16.7k ohms the 0.1 ohm per foot of the spark plug cable should not
be a factor.
After all these test have been performed you should of localized the problem to
a specific component.
Common issues more or less in order..
1) loose spark plug caps!
2) Bad grounds ( look for corrosion on central grounding point on #1/3 intake manifold)
3) Bad charging coil, usually as a result of a loose cap or running the engine
with out spark plus caps installed with mags on
4) ignition switch ( like I said usually only the case with either very slight
mag drops or complete failure
5) charging wires there is a SB on older engines but in the case of most CTs it
would most likely be related to physical damage ( shorted or nicked wire)
6) Black boxes ( rarely ever fail but when they do it's almost always related to
heat under the cowling
7) Triggers, usually as a result of physical damage, be very suspicious of this
if your engine has recently been removed
8) Timing.....oh wait!? It never changes ( this can pretty much be ruled out every
time :-)
There you go...
A&P
FCCL
Sport Pilot
ROTAX MECHANIC -912 OVERHAUL RATED
Technical Director & Rotax Warranty Rep. for California Power Systems
Nor-Cal Emergency Field Services, LLC -Owner
(209)481-5881 Cell
(510)247-9653 CPS Shop Mon-Fri
Nor_Calefs(at)Yahoo.com
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325785#325785
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: trouble shooting an ignition issue |
| From: | "ricklach" <rick(at)ravenaviation.us> |
Excellent Post, thanks to you and the author for making it available to us all.
:D
Rick
--------
701Driver
N35 26.700, W118 16.743
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325803#325803
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Watch Spot Tracker in action |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi All,
A friend of mine just turned his Spot on in Corning, CA. and will be headed home
to Bisbee, AZ. You can click on his Spot link. (Coppercity Aviation) and watch
his progress across CA and AZ. He is getting a late start due to fog. If you
leave the Spot link open it will automatically update on it's own as he cruises.
http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0qvvNclNhjEqYVq4G9piLqngR0uboKroM
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326128#326128
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul McAllister <l_luv2_fly(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Westach probes |
Hi Barry,
Somehow I got side tracked on this. I am still interested in these probes if
you still have them available for sale.
Thanks and regards, Paul
________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Sat, August 28, 2010 8:22:37 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Westach probes
Paul:
I have a set of four grounded EGT probes with a 90 Deg hard tube bend. They
install very nicely and work great on grounded systems.
If you go this route I'll sel them at a very reduced price.
Barry
On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 3:15 PM, Paul McAllister wrote:
Hi all,
>
>I was wondering if anyone has ever used these probes with a Grand Rapids EIS ?
>They are K type thermocouples and the offer grounded and un grounds tips. If
>anyone has experience with these I'd appreciate some feedback.
>
>BTW. The probes that GRT sell are too long and now bang into the oil tank on
>one side and the Intercooler on the other side.
>
>Thanks, Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Westach probes |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hello Paul:
Ya know, I forgot about them also.
I will pull them out of my goody box and get the info to you.
Barry
On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 8:10 PM, Paul McAllister wrote:
> Hi Barry,
>
> Somehow I got side tracked on this. I am still interested in these probes
> if you still have them available for sale.
>
> Thanks and regards, Paul
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* FLYaDIVE
> *To:* rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent:* Sat, August 28, 2010 8:22:37 PM
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Westach probes
>
> Paul:
>
> I have a set of four grounded EGT probes with a 90 Deg hard tube bend.
> They install very nicely and work great on grounded systems.
>
> If you go this route I'll sel them at a very reduced price.
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 3:15 PM, Paul McAllister wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I was wondering if anyone has ever used these probes with a Grand Rapids
>> EIS ? They are K type thermocouples and the offer grounded and un grounds
>> tips. If anyone has experience with these I'd appreciate some feedback.
>>
>> BTW. The probes that GRT sell are too long and now bang into the oil tank
>> on one side and the Intercooler on the other side.
>>
>> Thanks, Paul
>>
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | FUEL TANK SEALANTS |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hello Gaggle:
I have been fighting leaking fuel tans for a while. The tanks are aluminum
and sealed with PRO SEAL or the equivalent.
Since my engine likes both AvGas and MoGas and MoGas has ethanol I would
like a sealant that can stand up to both.
Stop - I know about the trick of removing the ethanol from MoGas but that is
only about 90% effective.
I would like to run straight MoGas.
Would anyone out there have any experience in this area?
Thank you for the assistance.
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave " <occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | FUEL TANK SEALANTS |
How about this ACS part number 09-02566 . I have used it on fibreglass BSA
tanks.
_____
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: January-12-11 12:03 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: FUEL TANK SEALANTS
Hello Gaggle:
I have been fighting leaking fuel tans for a while. The tanks are aluminum
and sealed with PRO SEAL or the equivalent.
Since my engine likes both AvGas and MoGas and MoGas has ethanol I would
like a sealant that can stand up to both.
Stop - I know about the trick of removing the ethanol from MoGas but that is
only about 90% effective.
I would like to run straight MoGas.
Would anyone out there have any experience in this area?
Thank you for the assistance.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FUEL TANK SEALANTS |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Dave:
I saw that one... (09-02566) Do you have any personal experience with that
product?
Barry
On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Dave wrote:
> How about this ACS part number 09-02566 . I have used it on fibreglass
> BSA tanks.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* January-12-11 12:03 PM
> *To:* rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* RotaxEngines-List: FUEL TANK SEALANTS
>
> Hello Gaggle:
>
> I have been fighting leaking fuel tans for a while. The tanks are aluminum
> and sealed with PRO SEAL or the equivalent.
> Since my engine likes both AvGas and MoGas and MoGas has ethanol I would
> like a sealant that can stand up to both.
> Stop - I know about the trick of removing the ethanol from MoGas but that
> is only about 90% effective.
> I would like to run straight MoGas.
> Would anyone out there have any experience in this area?
>
> Thank you for the assistance.
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FUEL TANK SEALANTS |
Dave, I'm curious that you mentioned that removing ethanol from mogas is
only 90% effective. Have you tried it? I am experimenting with
removing ethanol from mogas and it works fine so far in my Kitfox/912.
If there is a bit of ethanol left in my gas it has not caused any
problems. There is little information out there about washing gas.
Pete
On 1/12/2011 3:03 PM, Dave wrote:
> How about this ACS part number 09-02566 . I have used it on fibreglass
> BSA tanks.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* January-12-11 12:03 PM
> *To:* rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* RotaxEngines-List: FUEL TANK SEALANTS
>
> Hello Gaggle:
>
> I have been fighting leaking fuel tans for a while. The tanks are
> aluminum and sealed with PRO SEAL or the equivalent.
> Since my engine likes both AvGas and MoGas and MoGas has ethanol I
> would like a sealant that can stand up to both.
> Stop - I know about the trick of removing the ethanol from MoGas but
> that is only about 90% effective.
> I would like to run straight MoGas.
> Would anyone out there have any experience in this area?
>
> Thank you for the assistance.
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hugh McKay" <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: FUEL TANK SEALANTS |
Dave,
What is the root cause of your aluminum tanks leaking? How old are the
tanks? Are they leaking at fabricated joints? How long have you had this
problem? The reason I ask is, I have aluminum wing tanks in my Allegro
2000 and have not had any problem with leaks since the first flight in
2007. I now have almost 500 hours on the engine and I use 93 octane
(ethanol free) fuel as well as 87 octane (10% ethanol). Is your problem
the fuel or poor fabrication of the tanks?
Hugh McKay
From: Pete Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: FUEL TANK SEALANTS
Dave, I'm curious that you mentioned that removing ethanol from mogas is
only 90% effective. Have you tried it? I am experimenting with
removing ethanol from mogas and it works fine so far in my Kitfox/912.
If there is a bit of ethanol left in my gas it has not caused any
problems. There is little information out there about washing gas.
Pete
On 1/12/2011 3:03 PM, Dave wrote:
How about this ACS part number 09-02566 . I have used it on fibreglass
BSA tanks.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
FLYaDIVE
Sent: January-12-11 12:03 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: FUEL TANK SEALANTS
Hello Gaggle:
I have been fighting leaking fuel tans for a while. The tanks are
aluminum and sealed with PRO SEAL or the equivalent.
Since my engine likes both AvGas and MoGas and MoGas has ethanol I
would like a sealant that can stand up to both.
Stop - I know about the trick of removing the ethanol from MoGas but
that is only about 90% effective.
I would like to run straight MoGas.
Would anyone out there have any experience in this area?
Thank you for the assistance.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FUEL TANK SEALANTS |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Kreem Weiss is a great tank coating. The entire 1500+ fleet of Flight Design CT's
has it's tanks coated with Kreem and most of us use ethanol fuels. 325 of them
here in the states. Never an ethanol issue. Some in Europe and South America
use up to 18%-23% ethanol and never have any issues. It is pretty much impervious
to anything, that's why so many people that coat tanks use it professionally.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326739#326739
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 5th Annual 2011 Page, AZ Fly-In |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
5th Annual 2011 Page, AZ. Fly-InI
Including Lake Powell, Monument Valley, Bryce Canyon, Zion, Grand Canyon, St. George,
Bullfrog Marina Resort... and more!
Make those reservations now.. More people, more planes, different flight venue,
bigger and better than last year!
The Page, AZ. Fly-In date is October 13-16, 2011
We will fly the Grand Canyon, Lake Powell, Monument Valley, Zion Canyon and breakfast
at Bryce Canyon, Monument Valley, Bullfrog Marina and resort. We will also
be adding St. George this year for breakfast and adding new routes.
I managed to block off 45 rooms. We got a great rate of $49 same as last year.
I hope to have a record number of CT's and LSA aircraft for our Page Fly-In. Just
like last year make the reservations early so you don't miss out and the hotel
won't hold all 45 rooms forever.
Do not wait this year. Book it now and you can cancel up to 24 hours before Oct.
13th. Get it booked and reserved, then if you have to cancel you can, but if
you wait again then you may not be staying with the rest of us and at your own
peril for rates and possibly a different hotel. They book darn near the whole
town in October.
We have a special rate at the same place we stayed last year.
Tell them you are with the "CT Group" or Roger Lee to cross reference and the rate
is $49 a night. We will arrive Thursday morning, Oct. 13th. and head home
Oct. 16th. Sunday or Monday morning. Breakfast is free in the mornings.
I talked to the people at the Ranch House Grill and they will cater our evening
meals again. We will have evening meals together Thursday, Friday and Saturday.
Rose is our contact person.
Best Western Arizona Inn
716 Rim View Dr.
Page, Az.
800-826-2718
928-645-2466
The AZ. Inn has gone completely non-smoking!
We will fly into the Page airport - KPGA.
We are staying with Classic FBO and with our group we should get a 30 cent discount
on fuel.
Classic is not the first FBO next to the runway, but the second one behind them.
The Antelope Canyon tour and the Dam tour is open if anyone wants. These are land
tours.
You guys are welcome to invite other planes that are not CT's and everyone is welcome.
Find some more LSA's.
I will develop GPS coordinates for all our routes and post them so you can enter
them in your own GPS. I have a plan to better deal with all our planes for our
flights so they are not crowded in the mornings or evenings.
Don't miss this, we always have fun.
p.s.
I would like everyone coming to shoot me an email so I can put together a roster,
make name tags and set up call signs like we did last year. If you attended
last year and we had your personal info then just say you are coming. If you
did not come last year then I would like the email to include: N#, Names of you
and co-pilot, cell phone number, city, state.
This is a big help for me to last year to organize our fly outs since we have so
many planes and gives old friends and new friends a way to contact each other
if need be.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326742#326742
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FUEL TANK SEALANTS |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Roger:
I have tried this sealant. It worked GREAT on a stationary tank. But
FAILED quickly when used on a flexible aluminum (aviation) tank and on
fiberglass tanks. The stuff dries almost stiff, not really flexible.
What might you know about:
http://www.hirschauto.com/products.asp?dept=4
Barry
On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 5:04 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
> Kreem Weiss is a great tank coating. The entire 1500+ fleet of Flight
> Design CT's has it's tanks coated with Kreem and most of us use ethanol
> fuels. 325 of them here in the states. Never an ethanol issue. Some in
> Europe and South America use up to 18%-23% ethanol and never have any
> issues. It is pretty much impervious to anything, that's why so many people
> that coat tanks use it professionally.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326739#326739
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FUEL TANK SEALANTS |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Pete:
You are correct.
Yes, I have tried it for two years. It does work pretty well, but if
you religiously check your gas on a pre-flight you will find water in it.
Barry
On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 3:16 PM, Pete Christensen <
pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com> wrote:
> Dave, I'm curious that you mentioned that removing ethanol from mogas is
> only 90% effective. Have you tried it? I am experimenting with removing
> ethanol from mogas and it works fine so far in my Kitfox/912. If there is a
> bit of ethanol left in my gas it has not caused any problems. There is
> little information out there about washing gas.
>
> Pete
>
>
> On 1/12/2011 3:03 PM, Dave wrote:
>
> How about this ACS part number 09-02566 . I have used it on fibreglass BSA
> tanks.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [
> mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com]
> *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* January-12-11 12:03 PM
> *To:* rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* RotaxEngines-List: FUEL TANK SEALANTS
>
> Hello Gaggle:
>
> I have been fighting leaking fuel tans for a while. The tanks are
> aluminum and sealed with PRO SEAL or the equivalent.
> Since my engine likes both AvGas and MoGas and MoGas has ethanol I would
> like a sealant that can stand up to both.
> Stop - I know about the trick of removing the ethanol from MoGas but that
> is only about 90% effective.
> I would like to run straight MoGas.
> Would anyone out there have any experience in this area?
>
> Thank you for the assistance.
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave " <occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | FUEL TANK SEALANTS |
Only on motorcycle tanks. The fibreglass used on BSA tanks of the sixties
doesn't stand up well at all with the crap we call gas these days. This
stuff seems pretty much able to stand up to it, which is what they claim for
it. It's foul to work with but once hardened seems to stand up well.
_____
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: January-12-11 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: FUEL TANK SEALANTS
Hi Dave:
I saw that one... (09-02566) Do you have any personal experience with that
product?
Barry
On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Dave wrote:
How about this ACS part number 09-02566 . I have used it on fibreglass BSA
tanks.
_____
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: January-12-11 12:03 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: FUEL TANK SEALANTS
Hello Gaggle:
I have been fighting leaking fuel tans for a while. The tanks are aluminum
and sealed with PRO SEAL or the equivalent.
Since my engine likes both AvGas and MoGas and MoGas has ethanol I would
like a sealant that can stand up to both.
Stop - I know about the trick of removing the ethanol from MoGas but that is
only about 90% effective.
I would like to run straight MoGas.
Would anyone out there have any experience in this area?
Thank you for the assistance.
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FUEL TANK SEALANTS |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hugh:
It is I, Barry that posted the question.
The tanks are quite a few years old... About 30 years old. And they are
sealed with PRC, as I mentioned. I resealed them with PRC put coatings on
top of the PRC. But it still leaks. WAY too much work and expense
to disassemble the tanks and start from the beginning.
Barry
On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 5:01 PM, Hugh McKay wrote:
> Dave,
>
> What is the root cause of your aluminum tanks leaking? How old are the
> tanks? Are they leaking at fabricated joints? How long have you had this
> problem? The reason I ask is, I have aluminum wing tanks in my Allegro 2000
> and have not had any problem with leaks since the first flight in 2007. I
> now have almost 500 hours on the engine and I use 93 octane (ethanol free)
> fuel as well as 87 octane (10% ethanol). Is your problem the fuel or poor
> fabrication of the tanks?
>
> Hugh McKay
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FUEL TANK SEALANTS |
Barry,
You got that right. I do check. I was thinking of "aging" my washed
gas in a clean empty glass carboy for a week or so then siphoning the
gas off to use.
Pete
On 1/12/2011 4:49 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Pete:
>
> You are correct.
>
> Yes, I have tried it for two years. It does work pretty well, but if
> you religiously check your gas on a pre-flight you will find water in it.
>
> Barry
>
> On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 3:16 PM, Pete Christensen
> >
> wrote:
>
> Dave, I'm curious that you mentioned that removing ethanol from
> mogas is only 90% effective. Have you tried it? I am
> experimenting with removing ethanol from mogas and it works fine
> so far in my Kitfox/912. If there is a bit of ethanol left in my
> gas it has not caused any problems. There is little information
> out there about washing gas.
>
> Pete
>
>
> On 1/12/2011 3:03 PM, Dave wrote:
>> How about this ACS part number 09-02566 . I have used it on
>> fibreglass BSA tanks.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>
>> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf
>> Of *FLYaDIVE
>> *Sent:* January-12-11 12:03 PM
>> *To:* rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
>>
>> *Subject:* RotaxEngines-List: FUEL TANK SEALANTS
>>
>> Hello Gaggle:
>>
>> I have been fighting leaking fuel tans for a while. The tanks
>> are aluminum and sealed with PRO SEAL or the equivalent.
>> Since my engine likes both AvGas and MoGas and MoGas has ethanol
>> I would like a sealant that can stand up to both.
>> Stop - I know about the trick of removing the ethanol from MoGas
>> but that is only about 90% effective.
>> I would like to run straight MoGas.
>> Would anyone out there have any experience in this area?
>>
>> Thank you for the assistance.
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
> *
>
> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave " <occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | FUEL TANK SEALANTS |
HI, I think you might be confusing me with FlyDive. I have no aluminum
tanks. I am worried a little about my fibreglass Kitfox tanks but so far no
problems. I have used this product for vintage BSA fibreglass and it appears
to hold up, but I don't think we have alcohol in our gas here in the
Maritimes. I sold off all the old bikes, but all my experience with this has
been ok.
_____
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hugh
McKay
Sent: January-12-11 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: FUEL TANK SEALANTS
Dave,
What is the root cause of your aluminum tanks leaking? How old are the
tanks? Are they leaking at fabricated joints? How long have you had this
problem? The reason I ask is, I have aluminum wing tanks in my Allegro 2000
and have not had any problem with leaks since the first flight in 2007. I
now have almost 500 hours on the engine and I use 93 octane (ethanol free)
fuel as well as 87 octane (10% ethanol). Is your problem the fuel or poor
fabrication of the tanks?
Hugh McKay
From: Pete Christensen <mailto:pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: FUEL TANK SEALANTS
Dave, I'm curious that you mentioned that removing ethanol from mogas is
only 90% effective. Have you tried it? I am experimenting with removing
ethanol from mogas and it works fine so far in my Kitfox/912. If there is a
bit of ethanol left in my gas it has not caused any problems. There is
little information out there about washing gas.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jerry evans <kitfox555(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: FUEL TANK SEALANTS |
I have used KBS- coatings gas tank sealer work for me great go to the web
site and check it out
Jerry Evans
KitfoxII
Magalia Calif.
N582'er'
kitfox 555
--- On Wed, 1/12/11, FLYaDIVE wrote:
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: FUEL TANK SEALANTS
Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2011, 9:02 AM
Hello Gaggle:
I have been fighting leaking fuel tans for a while. -The tanks are alumin
um and sealed with PRO SEAL or the-equivalent. -
Since my engine likes both AvGas and MoGas and MoGas has ethanol I would li
ke a sealant that can stand up to both.
Stop - I know about the trick of removing the ethanol from MoGas but that i
s only about 90% effective. -
I would like to run-straight-MoGas.
Would anyone out there have any-experience-in this area?
Thank you for the-assistance.
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FUEL TANK SEALANTS |
Barry,
I have aluminum fuel tanks in my Zenith 701 (4) 11.5 gallon tanks. They we
re welded at the factory and I haven't had a
problem with leaks..... yet.
Since you have been having this problem for awhile with leaking tanks, may
be a more permanent fix should be made.
I'm sure it would be alot of work to get the tanks out, and they are full
of old sealant that would make this impossible.
My friend has been fixing tabs and threads on his harley engine for awhile
now with great sucess. Watch this video and please post any comments.
http://www.aluminumrepair.com/video_new.asp
Brian
http://www.701builder.com
Hello Gaggle:
I have been fighting leaking fuel tans for a while. The tanks are aluminu
m
and sealed with PRO SEAL or the equivalent.
Since my engine likes both AvGas and MoGas and MoGas has ethanol I would
like a sealant that can stand up to both.
Stop - I know about the trick of removing the ethanol from MoGas but that
is
only about 90% effective.
I would like to run straight MoGas.
Would anyone out there have any experience in this area?
Thank you for the assistance.
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FUEL TANK SEALANTS |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Brian:
I would love to do that....
Problem is the TANK is the WING. It is know as a Wet Wing.
And the material is only 0.020" thick. And there is no access to the inside
of the wing/tank for ANY type of welding.
Some problems are really problems ;-)
The main problem is that the sealing compound's chemistry has changed due to
the EPA. It is know to be cancer causing in California Rats. WHO CARES!
I'm not a California Rat and I don't plan on eating it!
I just want a gas tank that does not leak.
;-(
Barry
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 11:18 AM, wrote:
>
>
> Barry,
>
> I have aluminum fuel tanks in my Zenith 701 (4) 11.5 gallon tanks. They
> were welded at the factory and I haven't had a
> problem with leaks..... yet.
>
> Since you have been having this problem for awhile with leaking tanks,
> maybe a more permanent fix should be made.
> I'm sure it would be alot of work to get the tanks out, and they are full
> of old sealant that would make this impossible.
> My friend has been fixing tabs and threads on his harley engine for awhile
> now with great sucess. Watch this video and please post any comments.
>
> http://www.aluminumrepair.com/video_new.asp
>
> Brian
> http://www.701builder.com
>
>
> Hello Gaggle:
>
> I have been fighting leaking fuel tans for a while. The tanks are aluminum
> and sealed with PRO SEAL or the equivalent.
> Since my engine likes both AvGas and MoGas and MoGas has ethanol I would
> like a sealant that can stand up to both.
> Stop - I know about the trick of removing the ethanol from MoGas but that is
> only about 90% effective.
> I would like to run straight MoGas.
> Would anyone out there have any experience in this area?
>
> Thank you for the assistance.
>
> Barry
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jerry evans <kitfox555(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: FUEL TANK SEALANTS |
When I did my kitfox 2 wing, I took off the wing and just rolled-the wing
-around up down side to side -to get all the KBS coating evenly inside
the tank . I have a 13.5 gallon wing -tank. -I did the whole process t
hey-sell ya work for me very strong stuff-
Jerry Evans
KitfoxII
Magalia Calif.
N582'er'
kitfox 555
--- On Fri, 1/14/11, FLYaDIVE wrote:
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: FUEL TANK SEALANTS
Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 10:41 AM
Brian:
I would love to do that....-
Problem is the TANK is the WING. -It is know as a Wet Wing.
And the material is only 0.020" thick. -And there is no access to the ins
ide of the wing/tank for ANY type of welding.
Some problems are really problems ;-)
The main problem is that the sealing compound's-chemistry-has changed d
ue to the EPA. -It is know to be cancer causing in California Rats. -WH
O CARES! -
I'm not a California Rat and I don't plan on eating it!
I just want a gas tank that does not leak.
;-(
Barry
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 11:18 AM, wrote:
Barry,
-
I have aluminum fuel tanks in my Zenith 701 (4) 11.5 gallon tanks. They wer
e welded at the factory and I haven't had a
problem with leaks..... yet.
-
Since you have been having this problem for awhile with leaking tanks, mayb
e a more permanent fix should be made.
I'm sure it would be alot of work to get the tanks out, and they are full o
f old sealant that would make this impossible.
My friend has been fixing tabs and threads on his harley engine for awhile
now with great sucess. Watch this video and please post any comments.
-
http://www.aluminumrepair.com/video_new.asp
-
Brian
http://www.701builder.com
-
-
-
-Hello Gaggle:
I have been fighting leaking fuel tans for a while. The tanks are aluminum
and sealed with PRO SEAL or the equivalent.
Since my engine likes both AvGas and MoGas and MoGas has ethanol I would
like a sealant that can stand up to both.
Stop - I know about the trick of removing the ethanol from MoGas but that i
s
only about 90% effective.
I would like to run straight MoGas.
Would anyone out there have any experience in this area?
Thank you for the assistance.
Barry
-
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 5th Annual 2011 Page, AZ Fly-In |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Guys,
We have a number of people already reserving rooms. You all real ought to try and
come to Page, AZ. This is one really fun Fly-In and a nice bunch of people.
Anyone that has ever come to Page for this Fly-In always comes back. There is
no place in the country that you can fly the places we go, see the scenery or
fly the way we fly at home or at any event. Come join us, you won't be sorry.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327185#327185
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Service Bulletin 912-022 |
| From: | "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54(at)charter.net> |
Hi All,
This is my first post on the Rotax List. I usually only monitor the Europa List.
I am discovering I may need to do a service bulletin on my 912ULS
Ser.No 4425662. It involves replacing the valve spring retainers. I was just wondering
if anyone can offer any experience or advice. I looked at the price of
the Jig Assembly to aid in getting them off and back on and it is 356.00 best
case and the kit itself is around 260.00. I live in NC and a long way from any
Rotax Repair Station. Any advice. Thanks.
Troy Maynor
Europa Monowheel Classic
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327364#327364
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "gilbey69" <gilbey69(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Service Bulletin 912-022 |
troy,where in NC are you,D&F aviation in goldsboro NC has did work for me in
the past, Dwight Edmundson.Phone # 919-778-8816 he is a factory authrorized
dealer repairmen.
frank Goggio
mod4 speedster kitfox 912
Wilmungton NC
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Service Bulletin 912-022 |
| From: | "cherring" <ocean_guy238(at)hotmail.com> |
Good suggestion... give Dwight a call. He is very knowledgeable.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327430#327430
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Service Bulletin 912-022 |
| From: | "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54(at)charter.net> |
Hi Frank,
I am based at Hendersonville, near Asheville. I didn't know Dwight was still doing
this. I guess I had forgotten about him. Is he actually on the field in Goldsboro.
I will check with him and maybe I'll fly down there one day and have
him do it.
Thanks.
Troy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327444#327444
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "gilbey69" <gilbey69(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Service Bulletin 912-022 |
troy,no he still works out of the back yard, in his shop,he would be glad to
meet you i am sure,he was down doing some work for me a short while ago,hope
you get iot stright, frank
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Corona, CA airport flood |
| From: | "Geoff Heap" <stol10(at)comcast.net> |
John thats terrible. Good luck with getting your plane fixed up. I looked at the
photos. # 38 looks like a WESSEX helicopter......Geoff
--------
Dual controls. Dynon 180. Icom 210 Garmin 296. Becker transponder. Sigtronics intercom.
Electric flaperons.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327539#327539
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Corona, CA airport flood |
| From: | "Geoff Heap" <stol10(at)comcast.net> |
I just did some checking. Thats a Westland Wessex. Im amazed to see one here. I
was in the Royal Navy for 7 years. I saw a lot of them at that time...Geoff
--------
Dual controls. Dynon 180. Icom 210 Garmin 296. Becker transponder. Sigtronics intercom.
Electric flaperons.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327540#327540
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 912 S/ULS compression ratio |
| From: | "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr> |
On the last issue (April 1st, 2010) of the Rotax 912 series Operator Manual, the
compression ratio of the 912S/ULS has been increased to 11:1. See page 1-14.
Previously it was 10.5:1. Surprisingly there is no mention of any affected performance
figure. Does anyone know whether this is just a correction of a mistake
in the documentation, or a real modification of the cylinder head or piston
geometry?
Regards
Remi Guerner
Europa F-PGKL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327980#327980
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 S/ULS compression ratio |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Remi,
Nice catch. I suspect it is a typo, but I'll shoot off an email to Rotax and find
out for sure. It may be a day or so being Sunday, but I'll re-post and let
you know.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328000#328000
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | georg.stiller(at)arcor.de |
| Subject: | drop of rpm on take off |
Hi,
I started this thread on January, 4. I should like to thank for the advise and
report on my findings:
I changed the needle in the carb from pos. 3 to 4 and made some testflights at
5 - 6 centigrade below zero with carb heat pulled. There was no trouble, no rpm
drop anymore. Power output is okay. Carb heat is nearly ineffective, however,
as I checked the temperature in the air box with a digital thermometer and there
was virtually no difference with or without carb heat.
So the needle position obviously fixed the problem.
I have now a little problem with the warm start of the engine. Seems to be running
somewhat rich, a little bit of grey smoke from the exaust when the engine
catches.
Thanks again!
Regards, Georg
Kitfox, Rotax 912
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: drop of rpm on take off |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Make sure your idle rpm is set to only 1700-1800, not more it may be hard to start
and less it may be hard to start. No throttle on start up is normal. Once
in a while a 10% throttle opening can help if your normal rpm is a little too
low, but no more than 10%. Make sure that both choke/enricher circuits open fully
and not one more or less than the other. Try one or two different start up
procedures and I'm sure one will work.
Starting is also tied to poor carb balance so make sure they are set.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328039#328039
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: drop of rpm on take off |
I'm now installing a 912 to replace a 582. On the 582 I intentionally set
the idle very low so the plane wouldn't drift on touchdown. Once on the
ground I had to add throttle to keep 1800 rpm. Is this used with the 912?
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: January 23, 2011 1:51 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: drop of rpm on take off
Make sure your idle rpm is set to only 1700-1800, not more it may be hard to
start and less it may be hard to start. No throttle on start up is normal.
Once in a while a 10% throttle opening can help if your normal rpm is a
little too low, but no more than 10%. Make sure that both choke/enricher
circuits open fully and not one more or less than the other. Try one or two
different start up procedures and I'm sure one will work.
Starting is also tied to poor carb balance so make sure they are set.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328039#328039
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: drop of rpm on take off |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Noel,
You' re going to like your 912.
1800 rpm is not enough to keep you flying and might extend a glide
50', maybe. I have a plane that has a 14:1 glide ratio and can land in 1K feet
easily with 2800 rpm. I will use 2700-2800 rpm for all flap settings on normal
landings or I can land at idle. It can make a world of difference carrying a
little rpm to touch.
The rest of this post is on my soapbox and not aimed at anyone single person.
If someone can't put their plane down with 1800-2000 idle rpm then they should
look at their landing technique and try a few changes. Remember the stick controls
speed and throttle altitude. So what ever the rpm pulling back the stick
to your desired speed works just fine. Yes I know up to a point it makes a difference,
but not at rpms at or below 2000 rpm. Landing with rpm will also give
you better control surface authority just before touch down. The controls won't
feel mushy and give good solid input. If you can't hit a target landing spot
at 1600 rpm then you can't hit it at 2800 rpm and either way that just means
more focused practice. RPM doesn't decide where or when the wheels or floats
touchdown, you do in your setup and execution of the landing. I can hit my spot
at 1700 or 3000 rpm on landing and I can touch down at the same speed.
Purposely setting an idle rpm so you may loose the engine is, in my opinion, the
wrong way to set up your aircraft. It isn't good for the engine or the pilot
as some day it may cost you.
The more distractions you throw into a landing the more chance of making a mistake
some day. It only takes a second for a normal landing to mess up, keep throwing
distractions in your execution and sooner or later you may not be jolly
on the spot with a correction.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328117#328117
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: drop of rpm on take off |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi All,
Here is a link to the ROAN website to watch a fairly new Rotax engine tips video.
It covers things like start up, carb sync, prop balance, shut down and proper
engine rpm, ect. This video gives proper idle speed. This video is in conjunction
with "Service Letter" 0912-016.
For those who have argued about idle speed for the 912ULS 100 HP I hope this will
clear up any low rpm idle issues. It not only talks about it, but you can see
it on the instrument panel. The 912UL with only a 9.0:1 compression can do
1500 idle rpm, but the 912ULS at 10.5:1 compression has too much compression and
beats up the engine/gearbox, not to mention the chance of loosing an engine
at a 1500 idle approach. Be kind to your engine, it's the only thing that keeps
you off the ground and out of the tress.
The video will tell you to keep rpms at 1800 + rpm and higher depending on the
phase of the engine run. Running a 9121ULS at rpms of 1500-1700 is not good for
your engine as we have discussed here before. This is in writing now and I hope
alleviates some of the confusion from other sources.
http://rotax-owner.c...ning&Itemid=174
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328118#328118
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: drop of rpm on take off |
| From: | "AmphibFlyer" <SeaRey(at)AbstractConcreteWorks.com> |
Roger Lee wrote:
> http://rotax-owner.c...ning&Itemid=174
Thanks, Roger! That link got elided. Here's the whole thing--two links, actually:
Videos: http://rotax-owner.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=8&Itemid=174
Manuals: http://joomla.rotax-owner.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=108&Itemid=169
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328205#328205
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 S/ULS compression ratio |
| From: | "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr> |
Hi Roger,
I am not convinced by your reply. The change to 11:1 was clearly made on purpose
as the writer draw a vertical line on the left side of the text to highlight
the change. So Rotax clearly says that the compression ratio is now 11:1. The
question is: was the previous figure (10.5:1) true or wrong?
If it was true, that means they have made a physical modification somewhere.
Remi
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328384#328384
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 S/ULS compression ratio |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
I emailed Rotax and got a reply. It is a typo and nothing more. They just missed
it. Chalk it up to a poor proof read. jacking that up from 10.5 to 11.0 would
have been a really big deal to them and us.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328392#328392
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912 S/ULS compression ratio |
| From: | "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr> |
Ok, thanks Roger, I suppose they will make a correction on the next edition of
this manual. Wait and see!
Remi
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328421#328421
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | unsteady oil pressure |
| From: | "ronlee" <rlee468(at)comcast.net> |
The last two flights my oil pressure after hot has begun to jump around. At the
top end it is the same as it has always been, at 58 PSI hot. It stays there most
of the time but occasionally it will bounce from 49-55-58 and then sit on
58 for a while. I know the senders have a tendency to go bad. Any suggestions
of a more durable, cheaper one to use? Any suggestions of any other mechanical
problems that would cause the problem.
--------
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328461#328461
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: unsteady oil pressure |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Ron,
Haven't heard from you in a while. Hope everything is good.
I would recommend the new parts for the oil pressure regulation. This could be
a gauge issue, but the swings are still close enough not to be.
Here are the part numbers for the new Rotax parts. It takes 5 minutes to install.
This has stabilized many an oil pressure as that is what it was originally
designed for and it may raise your pressure 5 psi or so. I have installed these
in at least 20 aircraft. These parts cost about $75
Rotax parts: cap screw 841-983,
Spring 838-122, and oil pressure regulator cone 857-230
Stop on by Ryan some time. We all fly at least twice a week and head out for our
breakfast runs all over AZ.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328464#328464
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: unsteady oil pressure |
I had a similar problem and it turned out to be bad ground connection.
Pete
Kitfox III, 912
Leander, TX
On 1/25/2011 1:20 PM, ronlee wrote:
> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "ronlee"
>
> The last two flights my oil pressure after hot has begun to jump around. At the
top end it is the same as it has always been, at 58 PSI hot. It stays there
most of the time but occasionally it will bounce from 49-55-58 and then sit on
58 for a while. I know the senders have a tendency to go bad. Any suggestions
of a more durable, cheaper one to use? Any suggestions of any other mechanical
problems that would cause the problem.
>
> --------
> Ron Lee
> Tucson, Arizona
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328461#328461
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Duncan & Ami" <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net> |
| Subject: | unsteady oil pressure |
I have 400 hours on one of these:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/microflight1000.php
although the sensor is 'remotely' mounted.
Anyone want to buy an unused Rotax sender?!
Duncan McF
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ronlee
Sent: 25 January 2011 19:21
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: unsteady oil pressure
The last two flights my oil pressure after hot has begun to jump around. At
the top end it is the same as it has always been, at 58 PSI hot. It stays
there most of the time but occasionally it will bounce from 49-55-58 and
then sit on 58 for a while. I know the senders have a tendency to go bad.
Any suggestions of a more durable, cheaper one to use? Any suggestions of
any other mechanical problems that would cause the problem.
--------
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328461#328461
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: unsteady oil pressure |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Grounds certainly do cause gauge swings, but usually they are a little wider apart
than Ron's. Ron you can try to tighten all the grounds, but I don't think
that will cure this, but who knows. Grounds are considered loose until you put
a wrench on them. Remember finger tight, wrench loose. I would still put the
other Rotax parts in no matter what you find.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328503#328503
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: unsteady oil pressure |
> I would recommend the new parts for the oil pressure regulation. This
could be
a gauge issue, but the swings are still close enough not to be.
Here are the part numbers for the new Rotax parts. It takes 5 minutes to
install.
This has stabilized many an oil pressure as that is what it was originally
designed for and it may raise your pressure 5 psi or so. I have installed
these
in at least 20 aircraft. These parts cost about $75 <
These parts caused my oil pressure to fluctuate all over the place from
what was previously a pretty steady indication so I went back to the old
original ball /spring which works fine. I guess the old adage of "if it ain't
broke ,don't fix it " applies in my case But then I also have a weird 912
Ul of the early 90's vintage . It does lots of things different from anyone
else's 912
Dick Maddux
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: unsteady oil pressure |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
I put these parts in a 2006 Rotax 912ULS today and the plane has a nice steady
55 psi oil pressure, not to mention another 500 hrs onto the TBO.
Rotax parts: cap screw 841-983,
Spring 838-122, and oil pressure regulator cone 857-230
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328647#328647
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hal Carpenter" <wtcef(at)arn.net> |
| Subject: | Re: unsteady oil pressure |
Roger,
I think this question has been asked before but I couldn't put my finger on
it. We have a 914ul in a Europa XS. Is this a desirable upgrade for
it...and does it extend the TBO on a 914?
Hal Carpenter, Amarillo, TX
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 9:54 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: unsteady oil pressure
I put these parts in a 2006 Rotax 912ULS today and the plane has a nice
steady 55 psi oil pressure, not to mention another 500 hrs onto the TBO.
Rotax parts: cap screw 841-983,
Spring 838-122, and oil pressure regulator cone 857-230
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328647#328647
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: unsteady oil pressure |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
If you are already at 1200 hrs. you don't get any more time. If you are 1000 hrs.
you may get 200 hrs more if you qualify. Here is the SB for the 912 and 914.
http://legacy.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/serviceb/sb-912-041-ul.pdf
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328744#328744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NYTerminat(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Fwd: Photo Booth (Thanks Edna) |
____________________________________
Subject: It's a tad long but it's made me laugh.... I'l bet you watch it
till the end. . .
THIS IS REALLY CUTE!!!:
Click on below site....
_http://www.wimp.com/photobooth_ (http://www.wimp.com/photobooth)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
This is directed to Roger Lee or anyone else who might know.
I read the following on another list this morning and would like to know if there
is any truth in this.
THis is rumor until I see it.
There is a kit coming out to reduce the compression ratio of the Rotax 912S from
10.1:1 to something lower. It is rumored that there will be bigger jugs and
pistons to try to raise the displacement from just over 1300 CCs to something
closer to our 2200 CCs.
It will raise the HP from 98 to around 110 HP.
More displacement= more torque and less need for high octane gas.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful.
Ann Landers
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328973#328973
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: rumor I heard |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Thom,
I have not heard that, but I know just who to ask. I'll keep in touch.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328977#328977
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Photo Booth (Thanks Edna) |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
CUTE!
CUTE AS HELL... I PISSED IN MY PANTS!
FUNNY!
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 6:06 PM, wrote:
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *Subject:* *It's a tad long but it's made me laugh.... I'l bet you watch
> it till the end. . . *
>
>
> THIS IS REALLY CUTE!!!:
>
>
> Click on below site....
>
> http://www.wimp.com/photobooth
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: rumor I heard |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Thom,
Got my email back. Pure BS. Let them run with it and sit back and smile, it's all
garbage.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329001#329001
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: rumor I heard |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Thom, That's going to be some trick to accomplish. The bore of a 912 ULS is
84mm (3.31")and the stroke is 61mm (2.40"). Leaving the stroke alone, to ge
t
a displacement of 2200 cc the bore has to increase to 107mm (4.22"). I don'
t
think you can get there from here.
Rick
On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 8:19 AM, Thom Riddle wrote:
m
> >
>
> This is directed to Roger Lee or anyone else who might know.
>
> I read the following on another list this morning and would like to know
if
> there is any truth in this.
>
> THis is rumor until I see it.
>
> There is a kit coming out to reduce the compression ratio of the Rotax 91
2S
> from
> 10.1:1 to something lower. It is rumored that there will be bigger jugs
> and
> pistons to try to raise the displacement from just over 1300 CCs to
> something
> closer to our 2200 CCs.
>
> It will raise the HP from 98 to around 110 HP.
> More displacement= more torque and less need for high octane gas.
>
> --------
> Thom Riddle
> Buffalo, NY (9G0)
> Kolb Slingshot SS-021
> Jabiru 2200A #1574
> Tennessee Prop 64x32
>
>
> Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are
> wonderful.=94
> =97Ann Landers
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328973#328973
>
>
===========
===========
===========
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>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: rumor I heard |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
EFI has been in the works for a couple of years. My guess it will be about a $6K
option. It is part electronic and part mechanical from what I hear. I hope it
comes out this year, but who knows for sure.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329011#329011
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: rumor I heard |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Rick:
Companies do some pretty stupid things but this sure sounds like a hoax.
If you consider that 1300cc produces 98 HP that is .075HP per cc. With
2200cc @.075 HP/cc you would expect to see something like 165HP but figure
something like 75% efficiency so that would be 124 HP. So, where
do they get 112 HP? Kind of defeats the purpose? Why do ALL that changing
and work for ONLY a 12 HP gain.
It would make more sense to increase the compression to gain the HP.
Example: a Lycomming went from 150 HP @ 7.5:1 to 160 HP @ 8:1. So there
saw a gain of 6.25%. If Rotatx went up ONLY 6.25% that would be 104HP and
if they went to 11:1 that would be 110 HP with ONLY a piston change. NOW,
these are only paper numbers, there very well could be a greater increase.
BUT! Could the cylinders handle it?
Barry
On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 1:04 PM, Richard Girard wrote
:
> Thom, That's going to be some trick to accomplish. The bore of a 912 ULS
is
> 84mm (3.31")and the stroke is 61mm (2.40"). Leaving the stroke alone, to
get
> a displacement of 2200 cc the bore has to increase to 107mm (4.22"). I do
n't
> think you can get there from here.
>
> Rick
>
> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 8:19 AM, Thom Riddle wrote:
>
>> riddletr(at)gmail.com>
>>
>> This is directed to Roger Lee or anyone else who might know.
>>
>> I read the following on another list this morning and would like to know
>> if there is any truth in this.
>>
>> THis is rumor until I see it.
>>
>> There is a kit coming out to reduce the compression ratio of the Rotax
>> 912S from
>> 10.1:1 to something lower. It is rumored that there will be bigger jugs
>> and
>> pistons to try to raise the displacement from just over 1300 CCs to
>> something
>> closer to our 2200 CCs.
>>
>> It will raise the HP from 98 to around 110 HP.
>> More displacement= more torque and less need for high octane gas.
>>
>> --------
>> Thom Riddle
>> Buffalo, NY (9G0)
>> Kolb Slingshot SS-021
>> Jabiru 2200A #1574
>> Tennessee Prop 64x32
>>
>>
>> Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are
>> wonderful.=94
>> =97Ann Landers
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328973#328973
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Zulu Delta
> Mk IIIC
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
> It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhapp
y.
> - Groucho Marx
>
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 914 partial power failure |
| From: | "john firth" <firth942(at)btinternet.com> |
Hello all, I have a 914 fitted to a mono wheel Europa. a couple of weeks ago I
suffered a partial power failure on take off and had to land immediately. After
changing the fuel filters and cleaning out the carbs she ran fine for three
hours and five take offs and then failed again and now has symptom's on ground
runs which are:-
starts well and runs smooth till 2800ish rpm
can be made to go to 5000plus but runs rough and mag drops 600
I have checked the following:-
Replaced the whole fuel system except pumps, selector valve and tank fittings but
removed and checked them all.
Done Rotax fuel flow check at plus 0.5 bar simulated air box pressure giving 10psi
fuel pressure and delivering 70litres/hour on each pump.
Checked airbox pressure v fuel pressure when engine running 4psi
Checked float bowls for dirt, blown out jets, checked needle valves and float level-
all appear ok.
Checked slide and diaphragm for leaks and smooth operation.
Checked all small air pipes for leaks and blockage and carb mounting rubbers for
splits.
Checked plugs- all look OK with light brown deposits slightly white but am running
Avgas at the moment. (she runs the same on Mogas) and swopped the top two
plugs with each other at both sides.
When run to 5000rpm, airbox pressure rises to 1.1b and fuel increases to 1,4b.
TCU lights normal on power up and servo can be heard operating.I will check waste
gate arm moving tomorrow.
I could use some ideas from the wealth of experience out there.
Regards, john.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329052#329052
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
| From: | b d <gpabruce(at)gmail.com> |
It may very well be in ignition this time, wires mags breaking down,
moisture in mags, and even mechanical issues valves floating, sticking etc .
. yes I know you had fuel issues too and you looked at the plugs but you may
have multiple intermittent problems on multiple systems that are more
difficult to isolate. Don't get hungup on any one idea. Keep an open mind
and try to force a failure and then isolate that failure. Fix it and then
see if there is another problem . . could be. As I said you may have
multiple things failing under temp and pressure and then they heal up when
the stress is relieved. Make sense? The difficult porblems are also the fun
ones.
Also don't forget to check carb heat . . . carb icing can cause you to pull
your hair out plus it can be damned dangerous. Yeh I know it ain't sposed to
happen on take off . . . shit happens though.
Do you have the same mag drop on both mags or more on just one mag? Mag
drops don't indicate a fuel problem but more of Ignition and or mechanical.
Roughness can be fuel, ignition, air or mechanical or worse case . . all of
the above. Try to isolate with mag check first as much as possible then use
compression test and temperature stress test. By doing these tests, you may
see a pattern or a common cylinder that is losing power (loss of power is
indicated by a lower temperature hence the CHT temp test or EGT test or
both) If you have quad temp like I do, you can analyze it from the cockpit
in flight or on the ground . . . what's four temps among friends, right?
Don't let multiple intermittent problems confuse you like it does a lot of
people. Just because you had a fuel issue doesn't mean you don't still have
problems in other systems. Have you had a lot of weather? This is what
separates the men from the boys in trouble shooting. You will need to make
the culpret(s) break down if possible by putting the engine under stress
(load) and temperature. Better on the ground than in the air. You may need
to do a compression test after the engine is warmed. Do you know how to do
that? Do a comp test early on before getting too deep. A comp test will
show valve and ring problems usually unless valves are floating, it won't
show that.
Is malfunction on same cyls all the time? Run engine up with cowling off
under load and high RPM to achieve maximum roughness and then monitor temps
of each cylinder as follows. Let engine heat up and then check differential
cyl temperature or if you have four egt's record them, is it aircooled? If
yes use a temp wand to immediately check temp on all four cyls after shut
down or have someone check cyl temps while running under load . . . caution
about spinning prop. I don't know if a 914 is aircooled or watercooled.
Watercooled is more difficult to trouble shoot by temp. Use temp wand or
photopyrometer on individual exhaust pipes if water cooled. You may be able
to detect a difference in temp right on the sparkplug. Compare apples to
apples, check all top and compare or all bottom and compare.
Good luck and let me know . . .
Bruce
On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 9:48 PM, john firth wrote:
> firth942(at)btinternet.com>
>
> Hello all, I have a 914 fitted to a mono wheel Europa. a couple of weeks
> ago I suffered a partial power failure on take off and had to land
> immediately. After changing the fuel filters and cleaning out the carbs she
> ran fine for three hours and five take offs and then failed again and now
> has symptom's on ground runs which are:-
> starts well and runs smooth till 2800ish rpm
> can be made to go to 5000plus but runs rough and mag drops 600
> I have checked the following:-
> Replaced the whole fuel system except pumps, selector valve and tank
> fittings but removed and checked them all.
> Done Rotax fuel flow check at plus 0.5 bar simulated air box pressure
> giving 10psi fuel pressure and delivering 70litres/hour on each pump.
> Checked airbox pressure v fuel pressure when engine running 4psi
> Checked float bowls for dirt, blown out jets, checked needle valves and
> float level- all appear ok.
> Checked slide and diaphragm for leaks and smooth operation.
> Checked all small air pipes for leaks and blockage and carb mounting
> rubbers for splits.
> Checked plugs- all look OK with light brown deposits slightly white but am
> running Avgas at the moment. (she runs the same on Mogas) and swopped the
> top two plugs with each other at both sides.
> When run to 5000rpm, airbox pressure rises to 1.1b and fuel increases to
> 1,4b.
> TCU lights normal on power up and servo can be heard operating.I will check
> waste gate arm moving tomorrow.
> I could use some ideas from the wealth of experience out there.
> Regards, john.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329052#329052
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
John=0ADo you have a radiation pyrometer? I have one but maybe a bit far aw
ay in =0ADerbyshire. Quick way to check EGT/CHT=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____
____________________________=0AFrom: john firth <firth942(at)btinternet.com>
=0ATo: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, 31 January, 2011 5:4
8:56=0ASubject: RotaxEngines-List: 914 partial power failure=0A=0A--> Rotax
Engines-List message posted by: "john firth" =0A
=0AHello all, I have a 914 fitted to a mono wheel Europa. a couple of weeks
ago I =0Asuffered a partial power failure on take off and had to land imme
diately. After =0Achanging the fuel filters and cleaning out the carbs she
ran fine for three =0Ahours and five take offs and then failed again and no
w has symptom's on ground =0Aruns which are:-=0Astarts well and runs smooth
till 2800ish rpm=0Acan be made to go to 5000plus but runs rough and mag dr
ops 600=0AI have checked the following:-=0AReplaced the whole fuel system e
xcept pumps, selector valve and tank fittings =0Abut removed and checked th
em all.=0ADone Rotax fuel flow check at plus 0.5 bar simulated air box pres
sure giving =0A10psi fuel pressure and delivering 70litres/hour on each pum
p.=0AChecked airbox pressure v fuel pressure when engine running 4psi=0AChe
cked float bowls for dirt, blown out jets, checked needle valves and float
=0Alevel- all appear ok.=0AChecked slide and diaphragm for leaks and smooth
operation.=0AChecked all small air pipes for leaks and blockage and carb m
ounting rubbers for =0Asplits.=0AChecked plugs- all look OK with light brow
n deposits slightly white but am =0Arunning Avgas at the moment. (she runs
the same on Mogas) and swopped the top =0Atwo plugs with each other at both
sides.=0AWhen run to 5000rpm, airbox pressure rises to 1.1b and fuel incre
ases to 1,4b.=0ATCU lights normal on power up and servo can be heard operat
ing.I will check =0Awaste gate arm moving tomorrow.=0AI could use some idea
s from the wealth of experience out there.=0ARegards, john.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AR
ead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?
=======
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
| From: | "john firth" <firth942(at)btinternet.com> |
Thanks Bruce, I did compression check and got just one cylinder down by 5psi, others
at 130psi engine was warm.
looks like i need some temp measuring devices but panel on my plane is very full.
Cheers, john.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329060#329060
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | 914 partial power failure |
Hi! John
Have you checked that :-
a) The choke cable is allowing both levers to return to disused
position?
b) The ignition grounding hasn=99t any glitches anywhere
(intermittent short out through the odd single strand of wire)
c) Did you check the electric pump thimble filters for crud.(be very
carefull when getting them out to inspect and returning them after since
it is impossible to get replacements without buying a new pump!)
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
GRAHAM SINGLETON
Sent: 31 January 2011 08:39
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 914 partial power failure
John
Do you have a radiation pyrometer? I have one but maybe a bit far away
in Derbyshire. Quick way to check EGT/CHT
Graham
_____
From: john firth <firth942(at)btinternet.com>
Sent: Monday, 31 January, 2011 5:48:56
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 914 partial power failure
Hello all, I have a 914 fitted to a mono wheel Europa. a couple of weeks
ago I suffered a partial power failure on take off and had to land
immediately. After changing the fuel filters and cleaning out the carbs
she ran fine for three hours and five take offs and then failed again
and now has symptom's on ground runs which are:-
starts well and runs smooth till 2800ish rpm
can be made to go to 5000plus but runs rough and mag drops 600
I have checked the following:-
Replaced the whole fuel system except pumps, selector valve and tank
fittings but removed and checked them all.
Done Rotax fuel flow check at plus 0.5 bar simulated air box pressure
giving 10psi fuel pressure and delivering 70litres/hour on each pump.
Checked airbox pressure v fuel pressure when engine running 4psi
Checked float bowls for dirt, blown out jets, checked needle valves and
float level- all appear ok.
Checked slide and diaphragm for leaks and smooth operation.
Checked all small air pipes for leaks and blockage and carb mounting
rubbers for splits.
Checked plugs- all look OK with light brown deposits slightly white but
am running Avgas at the moment. (she runs the same on Mogas) and swopped
the top two plugs with each other at both sides.
When run to 5000rpm, airbox pressure rises to 1.1b and fuel increases to
1,4b.
TCU lights normal on power up and servo can be heard operating.I will
check waste gate arm moving tomorrow.
I could use some ideas from the wealth of experience out there.
Regards, john.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329052#329======
==================
Search <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329052#329052> &
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
John=0A4 EGTs would be good, 2 CHT OK. Do you have an engine monitor?=0AGra
ham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: john firth <f
irth942(at)btinternet.com>=0ATo: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Monda
y, 31 January, 2011 10:21:57=0ASubject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 914 partial
irth942(at)btinternet.com>=0A=0AThanks Bruce, I did compression check and got
just one cylinder down by 5psi, =0Aothers at 130psi engine was warm.=0Alook
s like i need some temp measuring devices but panel on my plane is very =0A
full.=0ACheers, john.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp:
//forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329060#329060=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
===================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: rumor I heard |
| From: | "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> |
Roger Lee wrote:
> EFI has been in the works for a couple of years. My guess it will be about a
$6K option. It is part electronic and part mechanical from what I hear. I hope
it comes out this year, but who knows for sure.
Hopefully carbs will still be available and the FI will remain just an option?
I'd rather stick with carbs on my next 912.
EFI is great until it breaks. Then there's no hope of ever figuring out what's
wrong with it or being able to afford the repairs (if it's going to be anything
like auto EFI).
Carbs are just so much simpler to debug and fix, so I'd rather just stick with
em....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329067#329067
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
| From: | "john firth" <firth942(at)btinternet.com> |
Bob, I have checked the choke levers and they're ok and the thimble filters look
clean visually but i could'nt get them out. The pumps are flowing over 100litres
an hour each with no back pressure so not too suspicious there and fuel pressure
stays good while running up to 5000 rpm 3-4psi above airbox.
I am now starting to delve into the wiring.
Graham, a radiation pyrometer would be very useful, if I cannot source one nearby
I will take you up on your kind offer.
Regards, john.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329090#329090
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
| From: | b d <gpabruce(at)gmail.com> |
John, did you get my first response I sent you? I'll resend it to you.
They are also called Photopyrometers or infrared temp indicators. You can
get them at Harbor Freight and most home suppy stores. You can also find a
stick type thermomenter in Martha Stewart ware or your napa auto store.
Walmart probably has both types too. It doesn't have to be precise, you are
looking for difference as opposed to absolute.
Bruce
Here is a copy of my first response to you. I pretty much covered all the
bases for you, Fule Air, Ignition, Mechanical, if you are interested, I
didn't hear back.
*b d to rotaxengines-l. *
*show details 12:07 AM (12 hours ago) *
*It may very well be in ignition this time, wires mags breaking down,
moisture in mags, and even mechanical issues valves floating, sticking etc .
. yes I know you had fuel issues too and you looked at the plugs but you may
have multiple intermittent problems on multiple systems that are more
difficult to isolate. Don't get hungup on any one idea. Keep an open mind
and try to force a failure and then isolate that failure. Fix it and then
see if there is another problem . . could be. As I said you may have
multiple things failing under temp and pressure and then they heal up when
the stress is relieved. Make sense? The difficult porblems are also the fun
ones.
Also don't forget to check carb heat . . . carb icing can cause you to pull
your hair out plus it can be damned dangerous. Yeh I know it ain't sposed to
happen on take off . . . shit happens though.
Do you have the same mag drop on both mags or more on just one mag? Mag
drops don't indicate a fuel problem but more of Ignition and or mechanical.
Roughness can be fuel, ignition, air or mechanical or worse case . . all of
the above. Try to isolate with mag check first as much as possible then use
compression test and temperature stress test. By doing these tests, you may
see a pattern or a common cylinder that is losing power (loss of power is
indicated by a lower temperature hence the CHT temp test or EGT test or
both) If you have quad temp like I do, you can analyze it from the cockpit
in flight or on the ground . . . what's four temps among friends, right?
Don't let multiple intermittent problems confuse you like it does a lot of
people. Just because you had a fuel issue doesn't mean you don't still have
problems in other systems. Have you had a lot of weather? This is what
separates the men from the boys in trouble shooting. You will need to make
the culpret(s) break down if possible by putting the engine under stress
(load) and temperature. Better on the ground than in the air. You may need
to do a compression test after the engine is warmed. Do you know how to do
that? Do a comp test early on before getting too deep. A comp test will
show valve and ring problems usually unless valves are floating, it won't
show that.
Is malfunction on same cyls all the time? Run engine up with cowling off
under load and high RPM to achieve maximum roughness and then monitor temps
of each cylinder as follows. Let engine heat up and then check differential
cyl temperature or if you have four egt's record them, is it aircooled? If
yes use a temp wand to immediately check temp on all four cyls after shut
down or have someone check cyl temps while running under load . . . caution
about spinning prop. I don't know if a 914 is aircooled or watercooled.
Watercooled is more difficult to trouble shoot by temp. Use temp wand or
photopyrometer on individual exhaust pipes if water cooled. You may be able
to detect a difference in temp right on the sparkplug. Compare apples to
apples, check all top and compare or all bottom and compare.
Good luck and let me know . . .
Bruce*
* *
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 9:42 AM, john firth wrote:
> firth942(at)btinternet.com>
>
> Bob, I have checked the choke levers and they're ok and the thimble filters
> look clean visually but i could'nt get them out. The pumps are flowing over
> 100litres an hour each with no back pressure so not too suspicious there and
> fuel pressure stays good while running up to 5000 rpm 3-4psi above airbox.
> I am now starting to delve into the wiring.
> Graham, a radiation pyrometer would be very useful, if I cannot source one
> nearby I will take you up on your kind offer.
> Regards, john.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329090#329090
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | john firth <firth942(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
Hello Bruce, I did respond but got a undeliverable mail message from
postmaster. anyway here is a copy :- Thanks Bruce, I did compression
check and got just one cylinder down by 5psi, others at 130psi engine
was warm.
looks like i need some temp measuring devices but panel on my plane is
very full.-: Also Graham Singleton has offered to lend me his.
Regards, john.
> John, did you get my first response I sent you? I'll resend it to you.
> They are also called Photopyrometers or infrared temp indicators. You
can get them at Harbor Freight and most home suppy stores. You can also
find a stick type thermomenter in Martha Stewart ware or your napa auto
store. Walmart probably has both types too. It doesn't have to be
precise, you are looking for difference as opposed to absolute.
>
> Bruce
>
>
> Here is a copy of my first response to you. I pretty much covered all
the bases for you, Fule Air, Ignition, Mechanical, if you are
interested, I didn't hear back.
>
> b d to rotaxengines-l.
> show details 12:07 AM (12 hours ago)
>
> It may very well be in ignition this time, wires mags breaking down,
moisture in mags, and even mechanical issues valves floating, sticking
etc . . yes I know you had fuel issues too and you looked at the plugs
but you may have multiple intermittent problems on multiple systems that
are more difficult to isolate. Don't get hungup on any one idea. Keep an
open mind and try to force a failure and then isolate that failure. Fix
it and then see if there is another problem . . could be. As I said you
may have multiple things failing under temp and pressure and then they
heal up when the stress is relieved. Make sense? The difficult porblems
are also the fun ones.
>
> Also don't forget to check carb heat . . . carb icing can cause you to
pull your hair out plus it can be damned dangerous. Yeh I know it ain't
sposed to happen on take off . . . shit happens though.
>
> Do you have the same mag drop on both mags or more on just one mag?
Mag drops don't indicate a fuel problem but more of Ignition and or
mechanical. Roughness can be fuel, ignition, air or mechanical or worse
case . . all of the above. Try to isolate with mag check first as much
as possible then use compression test and temperature stress test. By
doing these tests, you may see a pattern or a common cylinder that is
losing power (loss of power is indicated by a lower temperature hence
the CHT temp test or EGT test or both) If you have quad temp like I do,
you can analyze it from the cockpit in flight or on the ground . . .
what's four temps among friends, right?
>
> Don't let multiple intermittent problems confuse you like it does a
lot of people. Just because you had a fuel issue doesn't mean you don't
still have problems in other systems. Have you had a lot of weather?
This is what separates the men from the boys in trouble shooting. You
will need to make the culpret(s) break down if possible by putting the
engine under stress (load) and temperature. Better on the ground than in
the air. You may need to do a compression test after the engine is
warmed. Do you know how to do that? Do a comp test early on before
getting too deep. A comp test will show valve and ring problems usually
unless valves are floating, it won't show that.
>
> Is malfunction on same cyls all the time? Run engine up with cowling
off under load and high RPM to achieve maximum roughness and then
monitor temps of each cylinder as follows. Let engine heat up and then
check differential cyl temperature or if you have four egt's record
them, is it aircooled? If yes use a temp wand to immediately check temp
on all four cyls after shut down or have someone check cyl temps while
running under load . . . caution about spinning prop. I don't know if a
914 is aircooled or watercooled. Watercooled is more difficult to
trouble shoot by temp. Use temp wand or photopyrometer on individual
exhaust pipes if water cooled. You may be able to detect a difference in
temp right on the sparkplug. Compare apples to apples, check all top and
compare or all bottom and compare.
>
> Good luck and let me know . . .
> Bruce
>
> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 9:42 AM, john firth
wrote:
>
>
> Bob, I have checked the choke levers and they're ok and the thimble
filters look clean visually but i could'nt get them out. The pumps are
flowing over 100litres an hour each with no back pressure so not too
suspicious there and fuel pressure stays good while running up to 5000
rpm 3-4psi above airbox.
> I am now starting to delve into the wiring.
> Graham, a radiation pyrometer would be very useful, if I cannot source
one nearby I will take you up on your kind offer.
> Regards, john.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329090#329090
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ============= gines-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
=============
lank">http://forums.matronics.com =============
Dralle, List Admin. get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
============
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
with the right temptation you might entice me towards Burn airfield, is ot
=0Anearer than Sherburn in Elmet?=0AHaven't seen any of those people in 20
years!=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: john
firth =0ATo: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com=0ASe
nt: Monday, 31 January, 2011 17:42:38=0ASubject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 914
firth" =0A=0ABob, I have checked the choke levers
and they're ok and the thimble filters look =0Aclean visually but i could'n
t get them out. The pumps are flowing over 100litres =0Aan hour each with n
o back pressure so not too suspicious there and fuel pressure =0Astays good
while running up to 5000 rpm 3-4psi above airbox.=0AI am now starting to d
elve into the wiring.=0AGraham, a radiation pyrometer would be very useful,
if I cannot source one =0Anearby I will take you up on your kind offer.=0A
Regards, john.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forum
=================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | john firth <firth942(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
Hello Graham, not much difference in distance between Burn and Sherburn
from yours. My aircraft is actually at Barnsley at the moment. I will
give you a call when I know my movements this next few days but I am
working until saturday.
Regards, john.
On 31 Jan 2011, at 23:38, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:
> with the right temptation you might entice me towards Burn airfield,
is ot nearer than Sherburn in Elmet?
> Haven't seen any of those people in 20 years!
> Graham
>
> From: john firth <firth942(at)btinternet.com>
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, 31 January, 2011 17:42:38
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 914 partial power failure
>
>
> Bob, I have checked the choke levers and they're ok and the thimble
filters look clean visually but i could'nt get them out. The pumps are
flowing over 100litres an hour each with no back pressure so not too
suspicious there and fuel pressure stays good while running up to 5000
rpm 3-4psi above airbox.
> I am now starting to delve into the wiring.
> Graham, a radiation pyrometer would be very useful, if I cannot source
one nearby I will take you up on your kind offer.
> Regards, john.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329090#3290======
==================http://forums.matron
ics.comhttp://ww====================
==
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: rumor I heard |
As much as I like carbs I always thought the EFI was easier to work on...
Each part can be individually tested and or replaced. I've even been able
to replace coils in Chev Cavalier ECUs.
With the EFI it works yes or works no... If it works maybe then the problem
is wiring.
Carbs can require a lot more tinkering and when you get them to work they
impart a feeling of accomplishment.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lucien
Sent: January 31, 2011 10:12 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: rumor I heard
Roger Lee wrote:
> EFI has been in the works for a couple of years. My guess it will be about
a $6K option. It is part electronic and part mechanical from what I hear. I
hope it comes out this year, but who knows for sure.
Hopefully carbs will still be available and the FI will remain just an
option? I'd rather stick with carbs on my next 912.
EFI is great until it breaks. Then there's no hope of ever figuring out
what's wrong with it or being able to afford the repairs (if it's going to
be anything like auto EFI).
Carbs are just so much simpler to debug and fix, so I'd rather just stick
with em....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329067#329067
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: unsteady oil pressure |
| From: | "Rich L" <kitfox812(at)gmail.com> |
My oil pressure was 38-42 at 5200 RPM. Actually, it was less at higher rpm's.
I just installed the parts Roger recommended and was pleased with the result.
A pretty solid 55psi overall. It was 13degF when I tried it today and I was startled
when the startup pressure was 83psi. This went down below 65 by the time
it got to 120deg. Caused me to recheck the op manual. Thanks Roger.
--------
Rich Little
N812RL S-7 912ULS
North Idaho
Kiev Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329167#329167
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: unsteady oil pressure |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Monitoring Oil Pressure as well as Oil Temperature should be one of a pilots
main concerns.
On Cold Days, On Start Up you will ALWAYS see high oil pressure. If you
don't you either did a real good job on Pre-Heat or you have something
wrong.
Each plane and engine has small differences but the Rules of Thumb are:
1. Cold Conditions = High Oil Pressure and Low Oil Temperatures.
2. Hot Conditions = Low Oil Pressure and High Oil Temperatures.
3. If you see High Oil Pressure and High Oil Temperatures - Something is
wrong - One of the two gages is bad. More than likely the Oil Temperature
Gage.
4. If you see Low Oil Pressure and High Oil Temperatures - LAND - You
have something REALLY wrong. Compare your CHT's. This will help you
determine your PUCKER FACTOR.
5. If you see Low Oil Pressure and Low Oil Temperatures - You forgot to
put oil in your dry engine. Check your oil and gages.
6. Rule to remember: As Temperature - CHT, EGT, OAT and Oil Goes UP the
Oil Pressure will go DOWN. How much it goes down YOU have to learn you
plane.
Barry
On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 5:53 AM, Rich L wrote:
>
> My oil pressure was 38-42 at 5200 RPM. Actually, it was less at higher
> rpm's. I just installed the parts Roger recommended and was pleased with
> the result. A pretty solid 55psi overall. It was 13degF when I tried it
> today and I was startled when the startup pressure was 83psi. This went down
> below 65 by the time it got to 120deg. Caused me to recheck the op manual.
> Thanks Roger.
>
> --------
> Rich Little
> N812RL S-7 912ULS
> North Idaho
> Kiev Prop
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329167#329167
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
I wouldn't believe the static compression test I've seen them lie too many
times.. Best to do a differential test.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of john
firth
Sent: January 31, 2011 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 914 partial power failure
Hello Bruce, I did respond but got a undeliverable mail message from
postmaster. anyway here is a copy :- Thanks Bruce, I did compression check
and got just one cylinder down by 5psi, others at 130psi engine was warm.
looks like i need some temp measuring devices but panel on my plane is very
full.-: Also Graham Singleton has offered to lend me his.
Regards, john.
John, did you get my first response I sent you? I'll resend it to you.
They are also called Photopyrometers or infrared temp indicators. You can
get them at Harbor Freight and most home suppy stores. You can also find a
stick type thermomenter in Martha Stewart ware or your napa auto store.
Walmart probably has both types too. It doesn't have to be precise, you are
looking for difference as opposed to absolute.
Bruce
Here is a copy of my first response to you. I pretty much covered all the
bases for you, Fule Air, Ignition, Mechanical, if you are interested, I
didn't hear back.
b d to rotaxengines-l.
show details 12:07 AM (12 hours ago)
It may very well be in ignition this time, wires mags breaking down,
moisture in mags, and even mechanical issues valves floating, sticking etc .
. yes I know you had fuel issues too and you looked at the plugs but you may
have multiple intermittent problems on multiple systems that are more
difficult to isolate. Don't get hungup on any one idea. Keep an open mind
and try to force a failure and then isolate that failure. Fix it and then
see if there is another problem . . could be. As I said you may have
multiple things failing under temp and pressure and then they heal up when
the stress is relieved. Make sense? The difficult porblems are also the fun
ones.
Also don't forget to check carb heat . . . carb icing can cause you to pull
your hair out plus it can be damned dangerous. Yeh I know it ain't sposed to
happen on take off . . . shit happens though.
Do you have the same mag drop on both mags or more on just one mag? Mag
drops don't indicate a fuel problem but more of Ignition and or mechanical.
Roughness can be fuel, ignition, air or mechanical or worse case . . all of
the above. Try to isolate with mag check first as much as possible then use
compression test and temperature stress test. By doing these tests, you may
see a pattern or a common cylinder that is losing power (loss of power is
indicated by a lower temperature hence the CHT temp test or EGT test or
both) If you have quad temp like I do, you can analyze it from the cockpit
in flight or on the ground . . . what's four temps among friends, right?
Don't let multiple intermittent problems confuse you like it does a lot of
people. Just because you had a fuel issue doesn't mean you don't still have
problems in other systems. Have you had a lot of weather? This is what
separates the men from the boys in trouble shooting. You will need to make
the culpret(s) break down if possible by putting the engine under stress
(load) and temperature. Better on the ground than in the air. You may need
to do a compression test after the engine is warmed. Do you know how to do
that? Do a comp test early on before getting too deep. A comp test will
show valve and ring problems usually unless valves are floating, it won't
show that.
Is malfunction on same cyls all the time? Run engine up with cowling off
under load and high RPM to achieve maximum roughness and then monitor temps
of each cylinder as follows. Let engine heat up and then check differential
cyl temperature or if you have four egt's record them, is it aircooled? If
yes use a temp wand to immediately check temp on all four cyls after shut
down or have someone check cyl temps while running under load . . . caution
about spinning prop. I don't know if a 914 is aircooled or watercooled.
Watercooled is more difficult to trouble shoot by temp. Use temp wand or
photopyrometer on individual exhaust pipes if water cooled. You may be able
to detect a difference in temp right on the sparkplug. Compare apples to
apples, check all top and compare or all bottom and compare.
Good luck and let me know . . .
Bruce
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 9:42 AM, john firth wrote:
Bob, I have checked the choke levers and they're ok and the thimble filters
look clean visually but i could'nt get them out. The pumps are flowing over
100litres an hour each with no back pressure so not too suspicious there and
fuel pressure stays good while running up to 5000 rpm 3-4psi above airbox.
I am now starting to delve into the wiring.
Graham, a radiation pyrometer would be very useful, if I cannot source one
nearby I will take you up on your kind offer.
Regards, john.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329090#329090
============= gines-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
============= lank">http://forums.matronics.com ============= Dralle, List
Admin. get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =============
D========================
=========
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D========================
=========
D========================
=========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
| From: | "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> |
I agree with Noel.
A static compression test is fine for an automobile, but not
an aircraft engine. Rotax wants a differential leak test, and that's what
the A&Ps also want to see to help solve your problem.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329332#329332
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Valve Spring Retainer Tool Loan |
| From: | "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54(at)charter.net> |
Hi All,
I have a 912S that needs the (new valve spring retainer) SB 912-022 done. There
are a couple of different types of tools that are needed to compress the springs
to remove the rockers and retainers etc. I was wondering if anyone has these
or know where I can rent or borrow them. One style costs $541.00 USD new and
not sure of the alternate one that I found on the net. It was a simple bar bolted
to the head and a piece that is shaped like the two retainers side by side
and can be connected to a 3/8" breaker bar as a lever, the valves being held
in place with cord packed into the cylinder through a spark plug hole. Any thoughts
or ideas from anyone. Thank you in advance for any help available.
Troy Maynor
Europa Monowheel Classic
912S Warp Drive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329358#329358
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Happy First Flight Day |
| From: | "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54(at)charter.net> |
Their historic flight was actually in 1903.
Troy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329360#329360
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
| From: | b d <gpabruce(at)gmail.com> |
Differential are fine, and isolate a problem if there is one but dynamic
tests, which are what auto test are, is better than doing nothing and
will give one a pass or fail real quick. They work fine and are acceptable
for a quick test to see if there is a problem or not. I carry one with me
because no compressed air is needed in the boonies. I'm an old A&P. More
information is better than less.
Bruce
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 12:55 PM, rampil wrote:
>
> I agree with Noel.
>
> A static compression test is fine for an automobile, but not
> an aircraft engine. Rotax wants a differential leak test, and that's what
> the A&Ps also want to see to help solve your problem.
>
> --------
> Ira N224XS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329332#329332
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Happy First Flight Day |
So it is writen, must be true
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Valve Spring Retainer Tool Loan |
| From: | "AmphibFlyer" <SeaRey(at)AbstractConcreteWorks.com> |
Troy Maynor wrote:
> ... the alternate one that I found on the net. It was a simple bar bolted to
the head and a piece that is shaped like the two retainers side by side and can
be connected to a 3/8" breaker bar as a lever, the valves being held in place
with cord packed into the cylinder through a spark plug hole....
Troy, the alternate method worked fine for me about ten years ago. The tool and
the rope came with the new retainers. =Don Maxwell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329440#329440
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | JBM Rubber Carburetor Sockets For 912? |
| From: | "Goodone" <goodone41(at)verizon.net> |
Has anyone used the rubber flange type carburetor sockets for the Rotax 912 engines
using the Bing model 64 carburetors made by JBM Industries in Kent, Ohio?
These sockets are made in the USA and are considerably less money than the Rotax
sockets (big surprise).
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329463#329463
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: JBM Rubber Carburetor Sockets For 912? |
On 09:45 AM 2/3/2011, Goodone wrote:
>Has anyone used the rubber flange type carburetor sockets for the Rotax 912 engines
using the Bing model 64 carburetors made by JBM Industries in Kent, Ohio?
These sockets are made in the USA and are considerably less money than the Rotax
sockets (big surprise).
I have not used their 912 sockets, but have used al their 2-stroke sockets. Those
are MUCH better than the Rotax ones, and last a long long time.
--
Bob Comperini
e-mail: bob@fly-ul.com
WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: JBM Rubber Carburetor Sockets For 912? |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
I use JBM "rubber" parts on all my Rotax and HKS engines (same as 912
sockets). Their formulation seems to resist hardening and cracking better
than Rotax parts. Nice folks to deal with, too.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Goodone wrote:
>
> Has anyone used the rubber flange type carburetor sockets for the Rotax 912
> engines using the Bing model 64 carburetors made by JBM Industries in Kent,
> Ohio? These sockets are made in the USA and are considerably less money than
> the Rotax sockets (big surprise).
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329463#329463
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott DeMeyer <scottsr1100rt(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: JBM Rubber Carburetor Sockets For 912? |
I use JBM sockets. They are very good quality and much more sturdy than the Rotax
sockets. I have had several failures of Rotax $102.00 sockets, ( 4 to be exact
) and none with the JBM sockets.
--- On Thu, 2/3/11, Goodone wrote:
> From: Goodone <goodone41(at)verizon.net>
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: JBM Rubber Carburetor Sockets For 912?
> To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 9:45 AM
> --> RotaxEngines-List message
> posted by: "Goodone"
>
> Has anyone used the rubber flange type carburetor sockets
> for the Rotax 912 engines using the Bing model 64
> carburetors made by JBM Industries in Kent, Ohio? These
> sockets are made in the USA and are considerably less money
> than the Rotax sockets (big surprise).
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329463#329463
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -
> FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> List Contribution Web Site -
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: JBM Rubber Carburetor Sockets For 912? |
| From: | "ricklach" <rick(at)ravenaviation.us> |
The JBM Sockets are TOP QUALITY parts. I've been using them for a number of years
and to date I've had no failures. Cant say that about the Rotax Factory parts.
Rick
--------
701Driver
N35 26.700, W118 16.743
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329575#329575
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: JBM Rubber Carburetor Sockets For 912? |
| From: | "Goodone" <goodone41(at)verizon.net> |
Thanks for the information. Sure sounds like JBM is the way to go!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329733#329733
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Cracks in Crankcase |
| From: | "Rich L" <kitfox812(at)gmail.com> |
Has anyone heard of the Crankcase cracking on a 912uls? SB-912-029 makes it sound
like it can easily happen. Or is that CYA?
--------
Rich Little
N812RL S-7 912ULS
North Idaho
Kiev Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329884#329884
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cracks in Crankcase |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Rich,
Maybe a little CYA, plus in includes some people that don't follow Rotax engine
maint. recommendations, inspections or use after market parts and maybe even
a few that want to use baling wire to hold things on. [Laughing]
I have not personally seen a cracked crankcase, but I'm sure it would not have
been posted by Rotax unless something had happened. I sounds as if it is fairly
rare, but something they wanted people to take notice about. I don't think I
would be alarmed especially if you follow Rotax instructions.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329886#329886
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cracks in Crankcase |
> Has anyone heard of the Crankcase cracking on a 912uls? SB-912-029
makes it sound
like it can easily happen. Or is that CYA?<
I heard about this happening in one of my recent 912 classes. Apparently
too much pitch on the prop can over load earlier cases and create stresses
leading to case cracking thus the min 5200 static (WOT) Rotax calls for in
their bulletin.
Dick Maddux
Milton ,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe and Joan Kimbell <jnjkimbell(at)hotmail.com> |
Appreciate some info concerning fuel seperation. I have CH701 with the 100
hp riotax. I live in a high humedity area and have not been flying much la
tely. I use 10% ethanol fuel and last time I started to fly (fuel had bee
n in A/C over a month) and checked the lowest drain=2C I found cloudy fuel
=2C not water=2C but did not lood good. I continued to drain fuel until it
was clear=2C probably a half an ounce. Was this cloudy fuel on the point o
f seperation? I did go ahead and fly with no problems=2C but after thinkin
g about it=2C what would the list's ideas be. Very glad it kept running=2C
though an both tanks the fuel seemed to come out of only one tank. No ext
ernal fuel pump. Gravity feed.
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cracks in Crankcase |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Dick,
Now that you mention that I do remember them talking about that in class. Just
another good reason for people to follow Rotax recommendations and not branch
out on their own and experiment. Rotax has many thousands of hours of experience
and knowledge from a world's worth of 912's and 20 years of time not to mention
their own testing. I think I'll defer to their wisdom and and keep my engine
strong right up to TBO and beyond.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329964#329964
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Joe:
There are a few things that would cause your fuel to go cloudy:
Contamination in the tank.
Hygroscopic action of the alcohol
Temperature (low) causing the water to freeze
Being that you found only 1/2 ounce I would also consider:
The drain plugs as being contaminated due to oxidation
How clean was the inspection tube that you were using
When you say 'separation', are you referring to the water separating out
from the fuel due to saturation? If yes, then YES you could be seeing the
water above what the alcohol would hold in suspension.
A 1/2 ounce... I would not worry about. But why use gas with ethanol - Do
the separation procedure that has been discussed here on line and you will
reduce the chances of water.
Barry
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Joe and Joan Kimbell <
jnjkimbell(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
> Appreciate some info concerning fuel seperation. I have CH701 with the
> 100hp riotax. I live in a high humedity area and have not been flying much
> lately. I use 10% ethanol fuel and last time I started to fly (fuel had
> been in A/C over a month) and checked the lowest drain, I found cloudy fuel,
> not water, but did not lood good. I continued to drain fuel until it was
> clear, probably a half an ounce. Was this cloudy fuel on the point of
> seperation? I did go ahead and fly with no problems, but after thinking
> about it, what would the list's ideas be. Very glad it kept running, though
> an both tanks the fuel seemed to come out of only one tank. No external
> fuel pump. Gravity feed.
>
> =========
> >
> >
> >
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cracks in Crankcase |
| From: | "ronlee" <rlee468(at)comcast.net> |
I too remember reading Rotax 912 information about dragging the engine down by
over propping as being the cause of cracking crankcases. I believe the MINIMUM
required on wide open throttle is 5400 rpm.
I believe some have a tendency to want to run our engines at lower rpm then they
were designed for. Maybe we feel they Will burn less fuel and or last longer.
If anyone has different info please post.
--------
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330023#330023
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe and Joan Kimbell <jnjkimbell(at)hotmail.com> |
Barry=2C Sorry=2C I meant to say one half pint. Have no idea what Hygroscop
ic action means. Live in central FL and keep A/C in hangar. Un likly temp
ever went down to 32 in hangar. Yes=2C I mean separating due to saturation
. I am aware of the separation discussed and felt that someone who had don
e this would know if there was a period of cloudy looking just prior to sep
aration. Thanks=2C Joe
Date: Mon=2C 7 Feb 2011 12:59:23 -0500
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: ethanol
From: flyadive(at)gmail.com
Joe:
There are a few things that would cause your fuel to go cloudy:
Contamination in the tank.
Hygroscopic action of the alcohol
Temperature (low) causing the water to freeze
Being that you found only 1/2 ounce I would also consider:
The drain plugs as being contaminated due to oxidation
How clean was the inspection tube that you were using
When you say 'separation'=2C are you referring to the water separating out
from the fuel due to saturation? If yes=2C then YES you could be seeing th
e water above what the alcohol would hold in suspension.
A 1/2 ounce... I would not worry about. But why use gas with ethanol - Do
the separation procedure that has been discussed here on line and you will
reduce the chances of water.
Barry
On Mon=2C Feb 7=2C 2011 at 10:10 AM=2C Joe and Joan Kimbell wrote:
Appreciate some info concerning fuel seperation. I have CH701 with the 100
hp riotax. I live in a high humedity area and have not been flying much la
tely. I use 10% ethanol fuel and last time I started to fly (fuel had bee
n in A/C over a month) and checked the lowest drain=2C I found cloudy fuel
=2C not water=2C but did not lood good. I continued to drain fuel until it
was clear=2C probably a half an ounce. Was this cloudy fuel on the point o
f seperation? I did go ahead and fly with no problems=2C but after thinkin
g about it=2C what would the list's ideas be. Very glad it kept running=2C
though an both tanks the fuel seemed to come out of only one tank. No ext
ernal fuel pump. Gravity feed.
=========
>
>
>
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Joe:
A half pint is only 8 ounces... Not much in the scheme of things. What does
concern me is the cloudiness. When I was renting I have drained over a
gallon from one wing. And then I kept draining a second gallon just to make
sure. I gave ALL of it back to the FBO :-) BUT - None of it was cloudy.
How did you seal the tank?
What material did you use?
>From what you say Temps are not your problem.
I would Drain ALL the fuel.
Strain it through some cheese cloth as you drain to see if there are
any contaminates
Remove the sump drains
Inspect them for corrosion and proper height when fitted into the sump drain
threads
Flush the tank
You can use water followed by a rinse with gas.
Since you use MoGas I'd bet dollars to donuts that you did not filter the
gas prior to, or while filling the tank. Not knowing what you put in...
Only leads to not knowing where the contamination comes from.
Separation due to saturation would only reveal WATER. As long as the gas
was clean to start with and there is no contamination from the tank.
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave" <daberti(at)sbcglobal.net> |
You can get cloudy looking fuel if you used additives in your fuel.
Some
things when mixed with water will cloud up when agitated, It's possible
that the stuff sank with the water into your sump.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
FLYaDIVE
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: ethanol
Joe:
A half pint is only 8 ounces... Not much in the scheme of things. What
does
concern me is the cloudiness. When I was renting I have drained over a
gallon from one wing. And then I kept draining a second gallon just to
make
sure. I gave ALL of it back to the FBO :-) BUT - None of it was
cloudy.
How did you seal the tank?
What material did you use?
>From what you say Temps are not your problem.
I would Drain ALL the fuel.
Strain it through some cheese cloth as you drain to see if there are any
contaminates
Remove the sump drains
Inspect them for corrosion and proper height when fitted into the sump
drain
threads
Flush the tank
You can use water followed by a rinse with gas.
Since you use MoGas I'd bet dollars to donuts that you did not filter
the
gas prior to, or while filling the tank. Not knowing what you put in...
Only leads to not knowing where the contamination comes from.
Separation due to saturation would only reveal WATER. As long as the
gas
was clean to start with and there is no contamination from the tank.
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 912ULS integrated alternator question |
| From: | "dashwood" <dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com> |
Last time up i had a low voltage warning light show on the ems. low end threshold
of 12v. it seemed to only appear when i keyed the radio mic and / or cycled
the elec fuel pump on. took me a while to realize the correlation here. from
this thread it would seem to be a blown regulator.. i have not had a chance to
go in with a volt meter and check for voltage to the reg. the plane was up
for almost 2 hrs in this condition. no warning light but for when using radio
which is really the only draw other then the ems. seemed to be getting worse
to the end of the flight so proly battery was getting down...Q= will engine continue
to run with dead battery, assuming the generator fields are working? will
engine run without generator but a full battery? i use a photo cell charger
to keep battery topped up between flights so always had full charge to start.
battery is 2 years old and only fair condition, on schedule to be replaced.
question... am i on the right track... what is the problem with the master/alternator
switch off sequence... one first then the other and what happens if wrong
one is switche first..?
--------
Ross Aalexander: CH701 driver 912ul 450tt
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330079#330079
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
If you really, really have to fly on ethanol fuel then you have already
broken the first cardinal rule. Never leave fuel in your plane for an
extended period of time. If you have high humidity, as you said, it will
absorb some of the moisture and when that happens it, not only gets closer
to a phase separation but becomes very corrosive.... It may eat your tanks
if they are anything but stainless steel. It will probably start to eat
your fuel system including the carb body and the fuel lines. Best not to
leave it in the plane and only fly on fresh fuel. BTW you will know when
you have a phase separation happening... you will get something just over
10% of the quantity of fuel in your tank showing up as water. So if you
have left say 15 gal of fuel in your plane then if it separates you will get
1.5 gallons of water/ethanol solution (mostly water) hitting your carb or
injectors. A little good news is if you are using a paper filter it will
try to block the water from passing... unfortunately there won't be
anything else but water to pass. The milky substance you did find is
probably something the ethanol started to eat.
The second point is as Barry mentioned remove the ethanol form your fuel by
adding enough water to cause a phase separation. Then siphon the clear
ethanol free gas off the top of the water ethanol solution that will form on
the bottom of the container. Be careful though, to let the gas sit for
about twenty minutes so all the water can settle out before siphoning the
gas. And always use a good chamois or felt to strain your gas... either of
those products will pass gas but not water. If you remove the ethanol from
your fuel then it won't hurt to leave the gas in your plane between flights
for periods of up to I guess a month or so.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: February 7, 2011 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: ethanol
Joe:
There are a few things that would cause your fuel to go cloudy:
Contamination in the tank.
Hygroscopic action of the alcohol
Temperature (low) causing the water to freeze
Being that you found only 1/2 ounce I would also consider:
The drain plugs as being contaminated due to oxidation
How clean was the inspection tube that you were using
When you say 'separation', are you referring to the water separating out
from the fuel due to saturation? If yes, then YES you could be seeing the
water above what the alcohol would hold in suspension.
A 1/2 ounce... I would not worry about. But why use gas with ethanol - Do
the separation procedure that has been discussed here on line and you will
reduce the chances of water.
Barry
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Joe and Joan Kimbell
wrote:
Appreciate some info concerning fuel seperation. I have CH701 with the
100hp riotax. I live in a high humedity area and have not been flying much
lately. I use 10% ethanol fuel and last time I started to fly (fuel had
been in A/C over a month) and checked the lowest drain, I found cloudy fuel,
not water, but did not lood good. I continued to drain fuel until it was
clear, probably a half an ounce. Was this cloudy fuel on the point of
seperation? I did go ahead and fly with no problems, but after thinking
about it, what would the list's ideas be. Very glad it kept running, though
an both tanks the fuel seemed to come out of only one tank. No external
fuel pump. Gravity feed.
=========
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tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe and Joan Kimbell <jnjkimbell(at)hotmail.com> |
GENTLEMEN: Thank you for your input. I have found a source for 90 oct. et
hanol free fuel for about 50 cents a gal. over pump price. sounds like a g
ood deal to me. After following all of the excellent suggestions. I am sw
itching to the ethanol free fuel. Wish it was available for everyone. T
hanks again=2C Joe
From: noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: ethanol
Date: Mon=2C 7 Feb 2011 22:53:28 -0330
If you really=2C really have to fly on ethanol fuel then you have already b
roken the first cardinal rule. Never leave fuel in your plane for an exten
ded period of time. If you have high humidity=2C as you said=2C it will a
bsorb some of the moisture and when that happens it=2C not only gets closer
to a phase separation but becomes very corrosive.... It may eat your tank
s if they are anything but stainless steel. It will probably start to eat
your fuel system including the carb body and the fuel lines. Best not to l
eave it in the plane and only fly on fresh fuel. BTW you will know when yo
u have a phase separation happening... you will get something just over 10
% of the quantity of fuel in your tank showing up as water. So if you have
left say 15 gal of fuel in your plane then if it separates you will get 1.
5 gallons of water/ethanol solution (mostly water) hitting your carb or inj
ectors. A little good news is if you are using a paper filter it will try
to block the water from passing... unfortunately there won=92t be anything
else but water to pass. The milky substance you did find is probably some
thing the ethanol started to eat.
The second point is as Barry mentioned remove the ethanol form your fuel by
adding enough water to cause a phase separation. Then siphon the clear et
hanol free gas off the top of the water ethanol solution that will form on
the bottom of the container. Be careful though=2C to let the gas sit for a
bout twenty minutes so all the water can settle out before siphoning the ga
s. And always use a good chamois or felt to strain your gas... either of
those products will pass gas but not water. If you remove the ethanol from
your fuel then it won=92t hurt to leave the gas in your plane between flig
hts for periods of up to I guess a month or so.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengin
es-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: February 7=2C 2011 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: ethanol
Joe:
There are a few things that would cause your fuel to go cloudy:
Contamination in the tank.
Hygroscopic action of the alcohol
Temperature (low) causing the water to freeze
Being that you found only 1/2 ounce I would also consider:
The drain plugs as being contaminated due to oxidation
How clean was the inspection tube that you were using
When you say 'separation'=2C are you referring to the water separating out
from the fuel due to saturation? If yes=2C then YES you could be seeing th
e water above what the alcohol would hold in suspension.
A 1/2 ounce... I would not worry about. But why use gas with ethanol - Do
the separation procedure that has been discussed here on line and you will
reduce the chances of water.
Barry
On Mon=2C Feb 7=2C 2011 at 10:10 AM=2C Joe and Joan Kimbell wrote:
Appreciate some info concerning fuel seperation. I have CH701 with the 100
hp riotax. I live in a high humedity area and have not been flying much la
tely. I use 10% ethanol fuel and last time I started to fly (fuel had bee
n in A/C over a month) and checked the lowest drain=2C I found cloudy fuel
=2C not water=2C but did not lood good. I continued to drain fuel until it
was clear=2C probably a half an ounce. Was this cloudy fuel on the point o
f seperation? I did go ahead and fly with no problems=2C but after thinkin
g about it=2C what would the list's ideas be. Very glad it kept running=2C
though an both tanks the fuel seemed to come out of only one tank. No ext
ernal fuel pump. Gravity feed.
=========
>
>
> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-
Listtp://forums.matronics.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-Listhttp://forums.matron
ics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cracks in Crankcase |
>I believe the MINIMUM
required on wide open throttle is 5400 rpm.<
Ron,
If you check the service bulletin you will see the minimum is 5200.
Dick Maddux
Milton,Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Engine Life - "On Condition" |
| From: | "conrad" <conrad(at)conairsports.co.uk> |
I am compiling some information for a presentation at an LAA (Light Aircraft Association
UK) meeting being held in a couple of weeks which may determine the
future of running "On Condition" in the UK
If anyone has any examples of engines that have exceeded their TBO and are operating
successfully (or not) I would like to hear from you so I can support the
case for running past TBO. Any info you are willing to provide would be useful,
but I will need engine type, model, original TBO limits, total hours to date
& age of engine.
Can be any type of engine -Rotax, Jabiru, Lycoming, Continential, HKS, UL Power
etc etc.
If you want to why not post the info below for all to see.
Engine type
Manufacturers TBO, Hrs/Years
Aircraft type
Fuel type used
Long periods of storage? (specify)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330248#330248
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine Life - "On Condition" |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Conrad,
I have no statistics for you but except on type certificated aircraft or SLSA which
REQUIRE replacement of some parts on a calender time basis, I use "on condition"
replacement for most parts. The exception are those subject to high stress
and high probability of fatigue failure over time or those parts which are
difficult(expensive) to get to and I have current easy access to them.
A good example of this is a Jabiru 2200 solid lifter engine with a little over
ten years in service. Last week we did a thorough engine inspection while it was
off the airframe during and engine mount replacement due to damage in an accident.
The rubber socket that connects the Bing 94 carb to the intake manifold
is supposed to be replaced on a two year calendar basis, according to Jabiru.
After ten years in service (but only about 200 hours) one end is beginning to
show some minor cracks from aging. I ordered a new one. If it had been replaced
every two years, it would not need replacement now, but the owners would have
been out an extra $250 or so for unnecessarily replaced parts.
Successful on-condition replacement requires proper and timely inspections but
it can save the owner significant amounts of money over the long term without
sacrificing safety. In fact, it can sometimes improve safety for two reasons.
One, a part already proven in service will not suffer what I call bad-new-part
syndrome. Two, mechanics are not perfect and sometimes make mistakes when replacing
parts. If proper inspection of a part can be done without disassembly then
not replacing a good in-service part can reduce the risk of mechanic error.
I'm not preaching against replacement of parts on a calendar basis but tell customers
that is is optional when it is legal to do so.
Thom Riddle
http://sites.google.com/site/riddletr/a&pmechanix
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful.
Ann Landers
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330409#330409
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | bowden cable "grab point" on 912 UL. |
| From: | "ejessee" <eejessee(at)us.ibm.com> |
Hello,
I have purchased some length of throttle cable from Aircraft Spruce. I need to
replace the cables between my throttle "rocker arm" and each carb on my 912 UL
(mounted on CH 701). As the throttle application is "pull only", there is a
single "grab point" on each of the old cables where the rocker catches when pulling
the throttle back. This grab point looks like a little billet of lead.
How can I add such to the new cable? I have looked through Aircraft spruce
and have found no item that seems to be intended for this. What have others
done.
Thanks for your help.
--------
Ernest Jessee
N4931M
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330449#330449
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: bowden cable "grab point" on 912 UL. |
| From: | Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
Ernest,
I'm not a CH701 fellow so I don't know for sure about your installation. But from my experience with my Europa, I think that what you see on the end of the cable is the equivalent of the Nicopress Stop Sleeve. See: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/nicopress.php at the bottom of the page.
It's not really a "grab point" as much as a device to prevent the cable from completely
pulling loose should the tightening screw of the cable holder on the
carb become loose. If the cable holder should become loose, this stop sleeve
allows you to retain enough control of the engine to get safely on the ground.
You Rotax and CH701 folks chime in if I have this wrong!
Blue skies and tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Tri-Gear, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S Prop
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232
http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046
Europa Flying!
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Feb 10, 2011, at 10:11, ejessee wrote:
>
> Hello,
> I have purchased some length of throttle cable from Aircraft Spruce. I need
to replace the cables between my throttle "rocker arm" and each carb on my 912
UL (mounted on CH 701). As the throttle application is "pull only", there is
a single "grab point" on each of the old cables where the rocker catches when
pulling the throttle back. This grab point looks like a little billet of lead.
How can I add such to the new cable? I have looked through Aircraft spruce
and have found no item that seems to be intended for this. What have others
done.
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> --------
> Ernest Jessee
> N4931M
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: bowden cable "grab point" on 912 UL. |
| From: | PHILLIPS I <ivor.phillips(at)ntlworld.com> |
Bob i think you are right, I have put some heat shrink on my cables for
exactly that reason,
regards
Ivor
On 10 February 2011 16:32, Robert Borger wrote:
>
> Ernest,
>
> I'm not a CH701 fellow so I don't know for sure about your installation.
> But from my experience with my Europa, I think that what you see on the end
> of the cable is the equivalent of the Nicopress Stop Sleeve. See:
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/nicopress.php at the
> bottom of the page.
>
> It's not really a "grab point" as much as a device to prevent the cable
> from completely pulling loose should the tightening screw of the cable
> holder on the carb become loose. If the cable holder should become loose,
> this stop sleeve allows you to retain enough control of the engine to get
> safely on the ground.
>
> You Rotax and CH701 folks chime in if I have this wrong!
>
> Blue skies and tailwinds,
> Bob Borger
> Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Tri-Gear, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S Prop
> http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232
> http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046
> Europa Flying!
> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
> Corinth, TX 76208
> Home: 940-497-2123
> Cel: 817-992-1117
>
> On Feb 10, 2011, at 10:11, ejessee wrote:
>
> >
> > Hello,
> > I have purchased some length of throttle cable from Aircraft Spruce. I
> need to replace the cables between my throttle "rocker arm" and each carb on
> my 912 UL (mounted on CH 701). As the throttle application is "pull only",
> there is a single "grab point" on each of the old cables where the rocker
> catches when pulling the throttle back. This grab point looks like a little
> billet of lead. How can I add such to the new cable? I have looked through
> Aircraft spruce and have found no item that seems to be intended for this.
> What have others done.
> >
> > Thanks for your help.
> >
> > --------
> > Ernest Jessee
> > N4931M
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: bowden cable "grab point" on 912 UL. |
As the throttle application is "pull only",
here is a single "grab point" on each of the old cables where the rocker
catches when pulling the throttle back. This grab point looks like a litt
le
billet of lead......
Earnest,
Here is what they look like on my 701 scroll down to the 9th and 10th pic.
http://www.701builder.com/engine19.htm
I'm sure you can use the stop sleeves swaged on that Bob mentions. Maybe
2 on the end for extra security. The cables Zenith provided can be found
in a bike shop.
Brian
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "dashwood" <dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com> |
i have a 701 /912 with a ducati reg on it. got a low voltage warning last time
out. checked resistance of two leads coming from engine coils shows 7.2 ohms.
@ rotax manuel. the 12v dc side of the reg has a red wire out of firewall to first
/ next contact on reg. labeled alternator switch. the next contact is jump
wired to first and 4th contact. 4th also has wire to 12000mfd capacitor and
from there to solid ground. checked fuse panel and found a blown 15amp fuse on
a wire labeled alternator. what was the builder trying to do with this fuse.
i have been told by others if you shut off alternator loads while engine is running
it will fry the reg. i have two switches on panel labeled master and alternator
and was told always on shutdown one first then the other , never in
the opposite order with threat of dire consequences. could this fuse be an over
voltage / draw protection for the rest of the buss or has it somehow protected
the reg from me fumbling with the panel switches. i have changed the fuse
but not been able to test run engine and see if this fuse holds, due to howling
blizzard here. hanger-ed but open into the wind today .
--------
Ross Aalexander: CH701 driver 912ul 450tt
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330780#330780
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Ross, Suggest you review Section 17, pages 107-111 of the Rotax 912
Installation Manual.
Rick Girard
On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 12:43 PM, dashwood wrote:
> dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com>
>
> i have a 701 /912 with a ducati reg on it. got a low voltage warning last
> time out. checked resistance of two leads coming from engine coils shows 7.2
> ohms. @ rotax manuel. the 12v dc side of the reg has a red wire out of
> firewall to first / next contact on reg. labeled alternator switch. the next
> contact is jump wired to first and 4th contact. 4th also has wire to
> 12000mfd capacitor and from there to solid ground. checked fuse panel and
> found a blown 15amp fuse on a wire labeled alternator. what was the builder
> trying to do with this fuse. i have been told by others if you shut off
> alternator loads while engine is running it will fry the reg. i have two
> switches on panel labeled master and alternator and was told always on
> shutdown one first then the other , never in the opposite order with threat
> of dire consequences. could this fuse be an over voltage / draw protection
> for the rest of the buss or has it somehow protected the reg from me
> fumbling with the panel switches!
> . i have changed the fuse but not been able to test run engine and see if
> this fuse holds, due to howling blizzard here. hanger-ed but open into the
> wind today .
>
> --------
> Ross Aalexander: CH701 driver 912ul 450tt
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330780#330780
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "dashwood" <dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com> |
thanks. i was not able to find the pages i needed before. i think the fuse i have
blown is the 25A after the reg terminals. the capacitor is in place and should
have protected the reg as/per manual. when you close 16(master) then 19
relay pulls on the battery supply to fuse bus. i have an endurance fuse bus as
well. somehow an alternator disconnect that draws minimal power only from battery
to supply minimal flight requirements. i assume to guard against over voltage
(failed reg). i don't see this in the diagram. not sure if master has to
be shut off first to stop feedback( blowing the 25A fuse). i just want to understand
what is happening so i can fix or not have happen in flight again.
--------
Ross Aalexander: CH701 driver 912ul 450tt
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330827#330827
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Ross, Pay special attention to the capacitor. It's the protection for the
regulator. The proper size can be had from B & C Specialties, Mouser,
Allied, or others but you really should upgrade to the 25000 mfd min. size.
Rick
On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 8:12 PM, dashwood wrote:
> dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com>
>
> thanks. i was not able to find the pages i needed before. i think the fuse
> i have blown is the 25A after the reg terminals. the capacitor is in place
> and should have protected the reg as/per manual. when you close 16(master)
> then 19 relay pulls on the battery supply to fuse bus. i have an endurance
> fuse bus as well. somehow an alternator disconnect that draws minimal power
> only from battery to supply minimal flight requirements. i assume to guard
> against over voltage (failed reg). i don't see this in the diagram. not sure
> if master has to be shut off first to stop feedback( blowing the 25A fuse).
> i just want to understand what is happening so i can fix or not have happen
> in flight again.
>
> --------
> Ross Aalexander: CH701 driver 912ul 450tt
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330827#330827
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
December 11, 2010 - February 13, 2011
RotaxEngines-Archive.digest.vol-aw