TeamGrumman-Archive.digest.vol-ax
November 14, 2009 - February 06, 2010
To those pilots who thought Alberta was a lousy place for a
fly-in, I respectfully disagree. It took a little bit of actual
aviating to pull it off, but it was more than worth the effort.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
18:22:00
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Overlay and Eyebrow |
Rich
I have a metal panel overlay that you can have real cheap.
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Feinstein" <david(at)newlangsyne.com> |
| Subject: | Re: summer memories |
# great to see some pictures of the Keweenaw Peninsula
We didn't stop there. At the bottom of each page you can click "on to
[somewhere else]" if you want to see more.
Thanks for the kind words.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Courtney" <jamey(at)jamescourtney.net> |
| Subject: | Re: summer memories |
Didn't you have a bunch of pictures from Copper Harbor and Hancock?
Jamey
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David
Feinstein
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 3:20 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: summer memories
# great to see some pictures of the Keweenaw Peninsula
We didn't stop there. At the bottom of each page you can click "on to
[somewhere else]" if you want to see more.
Thanks for the kind words.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
19:42:00
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Tyer <stevetyer(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Overlay and Eyebrow |
Bill,
If rich is not intrested and if it fits a cheetah, then I would be
intrested. Thanks, Steve.
Steve Tyer
214-883-0099
On Nov 14, 2009, at 7:45 PM, A1ynk(at)aol.com wrote:
> Rich
> I have a metal panel overlay that you can have real cheap.
> Bill
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Contributions Down By 21%... |
Dear Listers,
As of today, contributions to the Matronics List Fund Raiser are lagging behind
last year at this time by 21%. I have a fund raiser each year simply to cover
my operating costs for the Lists. I *do not* accept any advertising income
to support the Lists and rely solely on the contributions of members to keep the
expenses paid.
I run all of my own servers and they are housed here locally, and the Internet
connection is a commercial-grade, T1 connection with public address space. I
also maintain a full backup system that does nightly backups of all List-related
data so that in the event of a server crash or worse, all of the Lists and
the many years of List archive data could be restored onto a new server in a matter
of hours.
All of this costs a fair amount of money, not to mention a significant amount of
my personal time as well. I have a Fund Raiser each year to cover these costs
and I ask that members that feel they receive a benefit from my investments,
make a modest contribution each year to support the continued operation and
upgrade of these services.
If you enjoy the Lists, please make a contribution today. I also offer some incentive
gifts for larger contribution levels. At the Contribution Web Wite, you
can use a credit card, Paypal, or personal check to show your support for the
continuation of these services:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Contributions Down By 21%... |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
That makes sense. My business is off 55% this year. The company I buy pa
rts from, their sales are down 45%. Wish I could help. I'm still making
payments too.
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:14 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Contributions Down By 21%...
Dear Listers,
As of today, contributions to the Matronics List Fund Raiser are lagging
behind
last year at this time by 21%. I have a fund raiser each year simply to
cover
my operating costs for the Lists. I *do not* accept any advertising incom
e to
support the Lists and rely solely on the contributions of members to keep
the
expenses paid.
I run all of my own servers and they are housed here locally, and the Inte
rnet
connection is a commercial-grade, T1 connection with public address space.
I
also maintain a full backup system that does nightly backups of all List-r
elated
data so that in the event of a server crash or worse, all of the Lists and
the
many years of List archive data could be restored onto a new server in a
matter
of hours.
All of this costs a fair amount of money, not to mention a significant amo
unt of
my personal time as well. I have a Fund Raiser each year to cover these
costs
and I ask that members that feel they receive a benefit from my investment
s,
make a modest contribution each year to support the continued operation an
d
upgrade of these services.
If you enjoy the Lists, please make a contribution today. I also offer so
me
incentive gifts for larger contribution levels. At the Contribution Web
Wite,
you can use a credit card, Paypal, or personal check to show your support
for
the continuation of these services:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
I know this is a long shot BUT,
I have two fiberglass wheel pants for the left wheel.
Any chance someone has two right wheel pants and wants to trade?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Overlay and Eyebrow |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
It's boxed. I'll get it in the mail tomorrow.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Mutzman <rcmutz(at)msn.com>
Sent: Sat, Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Overlay and Eyebrow
Gary,
Please drop me an e-mail when the overlay and eyebrow ships so I can be on
the lookout for it.
Richard Mutzman
rcmutz(at)msn.com
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | What's My Contribution Used For? |
Dear Listers,
Some have asked, "What's my Contribution used for?" and that's a good question.
Here are just a few examples of what your direct List support enables. It provides
for the very expensive, commercial-grade T1 Internet connection used on
the List insuring maximum performance and minimal contention when accessing List
services. It pays for the regular system hardware and software upgrades enabling
the highest performance possible for services such as the Archive Search
Engine, List Browser, and Forums. It pays for narly 20 years (yeah, I really
said *20* years) worth of online archive data available for instant random search
and access. And, it offsets the many hours spent writing, developing, and
maintaining the custom applications that power this List Service such as the List
Browse, Search Engine, Forums, and Wiki.
But most importantly, your List Contribution enables a forum where you and your
peers can communicate freely in an environment that is free from moderation,
censorship, advertising, commercialism, SPAM, and computer viruses. How many places
on the Internet can you make all those statements these days?
It is YOUR CONTRIBUTION that directly enables these many aspects of these valuable
List services. Please support it today with your List Contribution. Its one
of the best investments you can make in your Sport...
List Contribution Web Site:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
These are complete wheel pants. One was from my plane, one was from a wre
cked plane I bought. Unfortunately, they are both left. If you have the
hardware, I'll swap you and assemble the wheel pant.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com>
Sent: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 8:18 am
Subject: Re: Wheel pants
>Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Wheel pants
>From: teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM
>
>I know this is a long shot BUT,
>
>I have two fiberglass wheel pants for the left wheel.
>
>Any chance someone has two right wheel pants and wants to trade?
Are these just the shells? Or are they assembled, used pants?
I could swap you a right shell for a left shell.
Bob Steward
Birmingham, AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Just A Few Days Left; Still Trailing Last Year... |
Dear Listers,
There are just a few more days left of this year's List Fund Raiser! Response
has been very good, but still well behind last year. If you've been waiting until
the last minute to make your contribution and maybe even pick up a great
gift, now might be good time to show your support!
Please remember that there isn't any sort of commercial advertising on the Lists
and the *only* means of keeping these Lists running is through your Contributions
during this Fund Raiser.
Please make a Contribution today!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Make Sure You're Listed! List of Contributors Published |
in December!
Dear Listers,
The List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner! In December I post a
list of everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists.
Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation
for the Lists.
Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others
that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists
is fast and easy using your Visa, MasterCard, or Paypal account:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
PO Box 347
Livermore CA 94551-0347
USA
(Please include your email address on the check!)
I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far during this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps
these Lists running and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment
about how the Lists have helped you!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
Bob, this is one you might be able to answer
Background: I have 3 AG5B Tigers in my hangar right now. Two of them are
92s, one is a 91. All have the oil pressure transducers clear over on th
e left side of the firewall. Two of them have fuel pressure transducers
in-line with the carb inlet. One, the 91, has fuel pressure transducer
mounted under the oil pressure transducer. The fuel pressure transducer
looks just like the oil pressure transducer.
Question (1): Since the mount for all three (and the new Tigers as well),
located on the left side, have the provision to mount the fuel pressure
transducer, why, what, was the change to the fuel pressure transducer?
Question (2): Is the old style fuel transducer still a suitable replaceme
nt?
Question (3): If yes, why not solve some of the perceived problems with
the in-line transducer and mount the fuel pressure on the same mount?
Question (4): If not, is there a change that moves the fuel transducer to
the in-line position should that transducer need to be replaced?
Thanks in advance.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Metal to Metal bonding |
Gary... I'm a bit confused about the need for an alodine bath.
The MIL-Spec says...
------------------------
Chem Film, per MIL-C-5541, can be applied several
ways. "Unless an application method is specified,
the chemical conversion materials shall be
applied nonelectrolytically by spray, brush, or
immersion after all heat treatments and
mechanical operations such as forming,
perforating=85=85=85" This applies to touch ups as
well, as long as the touch up area does not
exceed 5% of the part surface area. Also, "The
materials from one supplier shall not be mixed or
used to strengthen an existing solution from another material supplier."
------------------------
http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL+SPECS+(MIL-C)/download.php?spec=MIL
-C-5541E.002379.pdf
DuPont's product sheet here....
http://www.blueridgepaint.com/pdfs/Aviation/AVA_13206S_TDS.pdf
DuPont Aviation Finishes products approved for MIL specifications:
MIL-C-5541 - Aluminum Conversion Coating
<http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html/visitor/b/avi/s/oemapprovals//dpc/en/US
/html/visitor/common/pdfs/b/product/avi/Aviation/TDS_13206S_Aviation_Finishe
s.pdf>DuPont=99
13206S=99 Aluminum Conversion Coating - (Alodine 1201)
Why not just brush or spray the alodine solution
on for the required 2 to 5 minutes of dwell time?
gil A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Just A Few More Days To Make Your List Contribution... |
There is less than a week left in this year's List Fund Raiser and only a few short
days to grab one of the great Contribution Gifts available this year. Support
is still significantly lagging behind last year at this point but hopefully
it will pick up here towards the end. Please remember that it is solely the
Contributions of List members that keeps the Lists up and running as there
is no commercialism or advertising on the Matronics Lists and Forums.
The List Contribution web site is secure, fast, and easy and you can use a credit
card, Paypal, or a personal check:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I want to thank everyone that has already made a generous contribution to support
the Lists!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics EMail List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BILL9725(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Just A Few More Days To Make Your List Contribution... |
Hi Matt
This is Bill Stigile, a new member to the teamgrumman list. I am mailing
$50 to you tomorrow for support and want to thank you for keeping the site
open. I have enjoyed the batter between everyone, and as long as the topic
stays on our mutual interests am very glad to be a part of the site.
Thanks again
Bill Stigile
Tiger N1540R
In a message dated 11/24/2009 12:15:27 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
dralle(at)matronics.com writes:
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Matt Dralle
There is less than a week left in this year's List Fund Raiser and only a
few short days to grab one of the great Contribution Gifts available this
year. Support is still significantly lagging behind last year at this point
but hopefully it will pick up here towards the end. Please remember that
it is solely the Contributions of List members that keeps the Lists up and
running as there is no commercialism or advertising on the Matronics Lists
and Forums.
The List Contribution web site is secure, fast, and easy and you can use a
credit card, Paypal, or a personal check:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I want to thank everyone that has already made a generous contribution to
support the Lists!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics EMail List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | What Are You Thankful For...? |
Dear Listers,
Here in the United States, Thursday is our National day of Thanksgiving. Many
of us will be traveling to be with our families and friends to share in generous
feasts of plenty and giving thanks for many blessings that have been bestowed
upon us.
Many Listers have expressed over the last couple of weeks how thankful they are
for the Email Lists and Forums here on the Matronics servers and for all of the
assistance and comradery they have experienced being a part of the Lists.
One of my favorite comments is when someone writes to me and says something like,
"Its the first thing I do in the morning while I'm having my morning coffee!".
That's a wonderful tribute to the purpose and function of these Lists.
Its always great to hear I'm not the only one that jumps out of bed each morning
to check my List email!!
Won't you take a minute today and show your appreciation for these Lists and for
their continued operation and upgrade?
The List Contribution Site is:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you in advance for your kind consideration,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | No "Black Friday" For List Fund Raiser... |
Even though the number of List subscriptions and List posts are up significantly
this year compared to last year, support during this year's List Fund Raiser
has been woefully lagging from last year. There are only a couple more days
left in November and the end of the Fund Raiser is quickly approaching.
I have always preferred a non-commercial List experience as many, many members
have also expressed that they do as well. However, if the yearly fund raiser
cannot generate sufficient funds to keep the bills paid on the List service expenses,
I will have to look into some sort of advertising. Please don't let that
happen!
Your personal contribution of $20 or $30 goes a long ways to keeping the operation
a float. The lunch combo at Carl's Jr costs nearly $10 these days. Isn't
the List worth at least as much as a couple of burgers?
Please make sure your name is on this year's List of Contributors published in
December. The Contribution site is secure, quick, and easy:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you in advance for your support!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Just Two More Days Left; Fund Raiser Behind By 12%... |
Dear Listers,
This year's List Fund Raiser is still trailing last year by a 12% margin. If you
like the ad-free environment that is the Matronics Email List and Forum experience,
please make a quick Contribution to keep it that way!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I've been getting a ton of really nice comments from Contributors regarding the
Lists. Please read over some of them below and see if they don't resonate with
you as well.
Thank you in advance for your generous contribution to support these Lists!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
--------------------------- Member Feedback ----------------------------
ur web site is a real institution of the whole Experimental
Aircraft subculture.
John G
Thanks Matt for the lists. A lot of good info. Great bunch
of list members. Great videos and no SPAM.
Paul C
It has been a valuable tool.
Troy M
..appreciate the site as much as ever.
Larry M
By using various forums I've learned a ton, received great
advice, made friends, and saved money!
Craig W
Since I've finished [my project], I've not had much to do as
far as fabrication of electrical systems. However,
selectively reading various topics is still very valuable
and Bob's insights and new how to's make me a continuous
subscriber.
Larry F
Matronics user groups are the best tool I have for learning
to build my RV-10!
Philip W
There is always useful knowledge to be found on this list,
and I suspect that it has kept quite a few people out of
trouble over the years it has been in operation. Good
entertainment, too.
Graham H
Great web site. I wish I'd known about it while building.
Bob S
I'm happy to provide some support to this list. It is very
helpful.
Vaughn T
Good service to sport aviation!!
Roger B
Awesome Service you provide for us!
Bill R
My [project] is almost finished! However, it wouldn't be
close without the [this] group.
Douwe B
Great list.
Robert S
I'm not a builder yet but learning lots from the list.
Peter M
Some nonsense, some humor, but mostly good information.
Tony C
Thanks for creating and keeping the Lists. They are
entertaining and always informative!
John M
Thanks for this valuable resource to our community.
Barry H
The list is IMHO the greatest resource on the net.
John B
Thanks again for providing another year of your useful
List service.
Jerry B
Great site indeed, every time I get a message I usually
learn something.
Peter B
You are making a huge contribution to the builder fraternity
and in no small way enhancing sport aviation safety.
Richard G
The List is the SINGLE, MOST IMPORTANT resource I have in
building my RV10. I would be lost without out it. And I
have made a bunch of new friends as well!
Les K
The lists are one of the things I really enjoy, so keep
up the good work.
Freddie H
Every year -- the best value for my time and money!
Owen B
This list is a major contribution to safe building!
Donald K
Really enjoy the daily boost it gives me.
Walter S
In the last 18 months I have been privileged to listen &
ask. I have learnt at the feet of the masters...
Stewart G
You set the standard on how Internet forums should be run
and managed.
Larry W
The Universe is a better place because of you.
Eric J
[The List] helped me get flying, fly off my test hours and
make my systems better. I continue to get and give
information through these lists.
Ralph C
..another GREAT year of advice, answers, and inspiration
courtesy of the Lists and your hard work!!!!
Rob B
..the best forum on the Internet!
Robert B
I can't tell you how grateful I am for your list and your
subscribers to keep me up to date and holding the dream.
Ashley M
This page makes it easy to contribute.
Jeffrey P
Thank you for your expertise in creating & running the
much useful lists!
Anthony P
Thanks for providing our advertising free on line community.
George R
Thanks for maintaining the equipment and software to
provide this valuable source of information to us
individuals. Your effort is appreciated by many more people
than you realize.
Ross H
Thanks for a great site. Although the project is complete
and flying I still get a wealth of information from all
the messages.
Marcus C
Only learned about you six months ago...my RV-7A is just
finished, but the list has been helpful. Wish I had
discovered you sooner.
Jack B
This is an invaluable communications media for us
common minded folks to exchange technical and other
information.
George H
..great service that you provide.
David W
..still appreciate your list.
Alain L
[The] Lists are an invaluable resource. I know that it has
helped me enormously in my project.
William B
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fuel Pressure Transducer |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
Bob Stewart,
I thought you'd have the answer to my fuel pressure transducer question.
Do you think Garner knows?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | [Please Read] - Last Official Day of List Fund Raiser! |
Dear Listers,
Its November 30th and that means at least two things. For better or worse, its
my 46th birthday! But it also means that its that last official day of the
Matronics Email List Fund Raiser! If you been jones'n over one of the really
nice gifts that are available this year with a qualifying Contribution, then now
is the time to jump on one!!
If you've been meaning to make a Contribution this month but have been putting
it off for some reason, NOW is the time!
I will be posting the List of Contributors in a few days, so you'll probably want
to be known as a person that supported the Lists!
I want to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution so far this
year in support of our Lists. It is your generosity that keeps this operation
a float and I don't ever forget it. Hopefully everyone feels the same.
The List Contribution Web Site is fast and easy. Please support our habit by making
your Contribution right now:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you to all in advance!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fwd: Post-annual items |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
Check out the snow in Auburn. Sam Sun took these pics while here on an ow
ner assisted annual.
This is the first snow I've seen stick in the 5 years I've been here.
http://condor.dyn.dhs.org/photos2/091207_Auburn_index.html
Take care,
Sam
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Post-annual items |
Hey Gary,
Cool pictures literally.
How come your fingertips are poking out through your gloves?
Looks like Santa should bring you some new gloves for Christmas.....
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael W. Meyer" <michael(at)flightsked.com> |
| Subject: | Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/10/09 |
Hi Gary,
I thought it never snowed in Auburn ;-)
That's ok, it even snowed here in San Francisco (well, close, down the
peninsula).
Hope you're well - Merry Christmas.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael W. Meyer
Tiger N74086
San Francisco, CA
michael(at)flightsked.com
On Dec 10, 2009, at 11:59 PM, TeamGrumman-List Digest Server wrote:
> Check out the snow in Auburn.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Courtney" <jamey(at)jamescourtney.net> |
| Subject: | Fwd: Post-annual items |
Sure looks pretty. I do miss a bit of that. I don't need 6 months of it
but it's nice to get a bit of it. May need to fly up to Tahoe and take the
dog to play in the snow over the holidays or something.
Jamey
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 10:02 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Fwd: Post-annual items
Check out the snow in Auburn. Sam Sun took these pics while here on an
owner assisted annual.
This is the first snow I've seen stick in the 5 years I've been here.
http://condor.dyn.dhs.org/photos2/091207_Auburn_index.html
Take care,
Sam
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07:36:00
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> |
Need one for my RV-10 ..... anyone got one for sale???
Linn
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/10/09 |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
It has snowed every year I've been here. But, after an hour, it's gone.
This is the first time I've seen it stick. Reminded me of why I left Ut
ah.
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael W. Meyer <michael(at)flightsked.com>
Sent: Fri, Dec 11, 2009 12:55 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/10/09
sked.com>
Hi Gary,
I thought it never snowed in Auburn ;-)
That's ok, it even snowed here in San Francisco (well, close, down the pen
insula).
Hope you're well - Merry Christmas.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael W. Meyer
Tiger N74086
San Francisco, CA
michael(at)flightsked.com
On Dec 10, 2009, at 11:59 PM, TeamGrumman-List Digest Server wrote:
> Check out the snow in Auburn.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | AG5B wiring question |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
I've got a 92 AG5B in my hangar for a new engine. While at it, I decided
to clean up the wiring. I hate sloppy wiring. This is one of those AGs
with the grounds on the vacuum filter. Go figure that one. In the past,
I've moved those grounds to the engine mount (the lug on the back). I've
done that to about 6 planes so far. Never had a problem.
While at the FWF restoration, I decided to change the battery & starter re
lays. Funny thing is, I can't get the relays to work. Rather than instal
ling them the way they came from the factory, I mounted them with the cap
down as shown in the 'preferred mounting' diagram that came with the rela
ys. Other than that, and the positive not going to big terminal marked "B
AT" on the battery relay (the diagram doesn't show that it matters, just
need to use the big terminal,) everything is connected the way it came of
f the old relays.
Here is the setup:
(1) No engine or engine mount.
(2) Ground wire attached to the upper right (airframe) engine mount with
an engine mount bolt.
- then attached to the neg side of the battery.
(3) Power cable (positive) from battery to battery relay.
(4) Only 5 (or so) volts measured at the other engine mounts.
(5) Connected a separate ground to the bundle of grounds that went to the
vacuum pump and now I get 24 (or so) volts at the other engine mounts.
It's almost as though the grounds in the cabin depend on the ground to th
e vacuum filter.
(6) Still no action on the master (battery) relay.
(7) Ran a jumper from the negative side of the battery to the relay contac
t and the relay energizes . . . except . . . there is only 5 volts on th
e output side of the relay.
I gave up for tonight.
I could really use a wiring diagram for this plane. So far, the current
flow logic isn't making sense. Anyone know what the cannon plug code is?
Back in the old days, I could read the number on the wire and look it up
. All of these wires are covered with expando sleeve.
Help. Anyone.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David White <dww0708(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 12/14/09 |
you-a serious voltage drop,,,- -
--- On Tue, 12/15/09, TeamGrumman-List Digest Server wrote:
From: TeamGrumman-List Digest Server <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 12/14/09
Date: Tuesday, December 15, 2009, 1:59 AM
*
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---Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
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Today's Message Index:
----------------------
- ---1. 07:28 PM - AG5B wiring question- (teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM)
________________________________- Message 1- __________________________
___________
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
From: teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM
I've got a 92 AG5B in my hangar for a new engine.- While at it, I decided
to clean up the wiring.- I hate sloppy wiring.- This is one of those AG
s
with the grounds on the vacuum filter.- Go figure that one.- In the pas
t,
I've moved those grounds to the engine mount (the lug on the back).- I've
done that to about 6 planes so far.- Never had a problem.-
While at the FWF restoration, I decided to change the battery & starter re
lays.- Funny thing is, I can't get the relays to work.- Rather than ins
tal
ling them the way they came from the factory, I mounted them with the cap
down as shown in the 'preferred mounting' diagram that came with the rela
ys.- Other than that, and the positive not going to big terminal marked "
B
AT" on the battery relay (the diagram doesn't show that it matters, just
need to use the big terminal,) everything is connected the way it came of
f the old relays.
Here is the setup:-
(1) No engine or engine mount.-
(2) Ground wire attached to the upper right (airframe) engine mount with
an engine mount bolt.
- ---- then attached to the neg side of the battery.-
(3) Power cable (positive) from battery to battery relay.
(4) Only 5 (or so) volts measured at the other engine mounts.
(5) Connected a separate ground to the bundle of grounds that went to the
vacuum pump and now I get 24 (or so) volts at the other engine mounts.
It's almost as though the grounds in the cabin depend on the ground to th
e vacuum filter.-
(6) Still no action on the master (battery) relay.
(7) Ran a jumper from the negative side of the battery to the relay contac
t and the relay energizes . . .- except . . .- there is only 5 volts on
th
e output side of the relay.-
I gave up for tonight.
I could really use a wiring diagram for this plane.- So far, the current
flow logic isn't making sense.- Anyone know what the cannon plug code is?
- Back in the old days, I could read the number on the wire and look it u
p
.- All of these wires are covered with expando sleeve.-
Help.- Anyone.
le, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AG5B wiring question |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
I must be the only one on this list.
OK, so, I'll entertain myself. . . . . now . . . . where's the lube?
So, last night, while watching tv, I got to wondering if there might be a
right or wrong way to hook up the power and ground to the relay contacts
which energize the relay. You know, like when you made an electro magnet
out of a nail and wire? Does it matter which way the current flows to ma
ke North and South . . . that sort of thing. So, today, I changed the po
wer and ground sources and the relay energized just fine. I have 27 volts
everywhere except on the output big terminal on the relay. Hence, no vol
tage to the system buss. The output measures in the neighborhood of 3 to
5 volts. so . . . . . tomorrow, I'll mount the relays as they were, ups
ide down compared the the preferred mounting diagram that came with the re
lay, and see what happens.
Last Friday, I got the engine mount back from the powder coater (and no,
Virginia, powder coating will not hide a crack. that is an old wives tai
l. American Champion has been powder coating their entire steel tube fuse
lages for 20 years.) I'll finish detailing the engine mounts on the fusel
age and install the engine mount.
Then, finish the wiring of all the grounds to the engine mount. Then see
what happens. Assuming, of course, that the relay still doesn't work onc
e I mount it right side up. I may have Garner send another one just for
giggles.
Then, once the wiring is all hooked up, install Larry's 210 hp O360.
-----Original Message-----
From: teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM
Sent: Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:26 pm
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
I've got a 92 AG5B in my hangar for a new engine. While at it, I decided
to clean up the wiring. I hate sloppy wiring. This is one of those AGs
with the grounds on the vacuum filter. Go figure that one. In the past,
I've moved those grounds to the engine mount (the lug on the back). I've
done that to about 6 planes so far. Never had a problem.
While at the FWF restoration, I decided to change the battery & starter re
lays. Funny thing is, I can't get the relays to work. Rather than instal
ling them the way they came from the factory, I mounted them with the cap
down as shown in the 'preferred mounting' diagram that came with the rela
ys. Other than that, and the positive not going to big terminal marked "B
AT" on the battery relay (the diagram doesn't show that it matters, just
need to use the big terminal,) everything is connected the way it came of
f the old relays.
Here is the setup:
(1) No engine or engine mount.
(2) Ground wire attached to the upper right (airframe) engine mount with
an engine mount bolt.
- then attached to the neg side of the battery.
(3) Power cable (positive) from battery to battery relay.
(4) Only 5 (or so) volts measured at the other engine mounts.
(5) Connected a separate ground to the bundle of grounds that went to the
vacuum pump and now I get 24 (or so) volts at the other engine mounts.
It's almost as though the grounds in the cabin depend on the ground to th
e vacuum filter.
(6) Still no action on the master (battery) relay.
(7) Ran a jumper from the negative side of the battery to the relay contac
t and the relay energizes . . . except . . . there is only 5 volts on th
e output side of the relay.
I gave up for tonight.
I could really use a wiring diagram for this plane. So far, the current
flow logic isn't making sense. Anyone know what the cannon plug code is?
Back in the old days, I could read the number on the wire and look it up
. All of these wires are covered with expando sleeve.
Help. Anyone.
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 210 hp O360 @ 2715 rpm |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
Did that get your attention?
Stock pistons too.
One thing about it, Ken builds one shit-hot engine. His dyno guy told me
they saw 217 hp on one pull but couldn't repeat it. AND . . . that was
at full rich. That was NOT, I repeat, NOT, 210 hp leaned to peak hp.
Have I mentioned the 1991 Project X Tiger????
No?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AG5B wiring question |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
Too bad Barry isn't on this list. He'd know.
I must be the only one on this list.
OK, so, I'll entertain myself. . . . . now . . . . where's the lube?
So, last night, while watching tv, I got to wondering if there might be a
right or wrong way to hook up the power and ground to the relay contacts
which energize the relay. You know, like when you made an electro magnet
out of a nail and wire? Does it matter which way the current flows to ma
ke North and South . . . that sort of thing. So, today, I changed the po
wer and ground sources and the relay energized just fine. I have 27 volts
everywhere except on the output big terminal on the relay. Hence, no vol
tage to the system buss. The output measures in the neighborhood of 3 to
5 volts. so . . . . . tomorrow, I'll mount the relays as they were, ups
ide down compared the the preferred mounting diagram that came with the re
lay, and see what happens.
Last Friday, I got the engine mount back from the powder coater (and no,
Virginia, powder coating will not hide a crack. that is an old wives tai
l. American Champion has been powder coating their entire steel tube fuse
lages for 20 years.) I'll finish detailing the engine mounts on the fusel
age and install the engine mount.
Then, finish the wiring of all the grounds to the engine mount. Then see
what happens. Assuming, of course, that the relay still doesn't work onc
e I mount it right side up. I may have Garner send another one just for
giggles.
Then, once the wiring is all hooked up, install Larry's 210 hp O360.
-----Original Message-----
From: teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM
Sent: Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:26 pm
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
I've got a 92 AG5B in my hangar for a new engine. While at it, I decided
to clean up the wiring. I hate sloppy wiring. This is one of those AGs
with the grounds on the vacuum filter. Go figure that one. In the past,
I've moved those grounds to the engine mount (the lug on the back). I've
done that to about 6 planes so far. Never had a problem.
While at the FWF restoration, I decided to change the battery & starter re
lays. Funny thing is, I can't get the relays to work. Rather than instal
ling them the way they came from the factory, I mounted them with the cap
down as shown in the 'preferred mounting' diagram that came with the rela
ys. Other than that, and the positive not going to big terminal marked "B
AT" on the battery relay (the diagram doesn't show that it matters, just
need to use the big terminal,) everything is connected the way it came of
f the old relays.
Here is the setup:
(1) No engine or engine mount.
(2) Ground wire attached to the upper right (airframe) engine mount with
an engine mount bolt.
- then attached to the neg side of the battery.
(3) Power cable (positive) from battery to battery relay.
(4) Only 5 (or so) volts measured at the other engine mounts.
(5) Connected a separate ground to the bundle of grounds that went to the
vacuum pump and now I get 24 (or so) volts at the other engine mounts.
It's almost as though the grounds in the cabin depend on the ground to th
e vacuum filter.
(6) Still no action on the master (battery) relay.
(7) Ran a jumper from the negative side of the battery to the relay contac
t and the relay energizes . . . except . . . there is only 5 volts on th
e output side of the relay.
I gave up for tonight.
I could really use a wiring diagram for this plane. So far, the current
flow logic isn't making sense. Anyone know what the cannon plug code is?
Back in the old days, I could read the number on the wire and look it up
. All of these wires are covered with expando sleeve.
Help. Anyone.
========================
===========
ric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
thelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
========================
===========
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
========================
===========
ttp://forums.matronics.com
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
(1) As everyone knows, the air inlet to the carb (via two air boxes) on th
e AG5B Tiger leaves a LOT to be desired. In side-by-side testing (on seve
ral occasions), one AG5B and the other an AA5B, the AG5B will have up to
1 inch of manifold pressure LESS than an AA5B. SO, the first project is
to design a better inlet and air-filter box to get back at least some of
the lost pressure and, at the same time, make it easier to remove and rep
lace the cowling. Wrestling the cowling off of an AG is a pain in the ass
. Between the tail-pipe sticking through the cowling and the air box gett
ing hung up on the exhaust system, it's a wonder it ever comes off.
(2) Then, the Jaguar cowling onto the AG with a Power Flow. Once the inle
t issue is solved the rest is a cake walk. So, Ned, your wait will be ove
r.
(3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . .
AND . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger. Not just an
y -B1B either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a de
rated RPM to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40 more
usable hp at 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face.
(4) Power Flow exhaust onto the IO360-B1B.
(5) Then, a Jaguar cowling onto the AG with the IO360-B1B.
(6) Wheel pants. I already have some prototypes being built. None of thi
s RV-10 stuff either. Those wheel pants just look wrong. My plane will
be wearing a new nose wheel pant shortly to see if it's feasible to use
existing mounting hardware.
(7) I've hired a DER who got the Texas Tail Dragger STC. 'nuf said.
Now, if I can get this goddamn Kia to start, I'll have time to work on Lar
ry's plane.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AG5B wiring question |
It makes sense that the relay should only energize based on polarity of the
inputs. Simple coil, EMF, right hand rule, ete etc etc. What I
don't understand is
how the documentation would recommend a configuration that doesn't work???
> So, last night, while watching tv, I got to wondering if there might be a
> right or wrong way to hook up the power and ground to the relay contacts
> which energize the relay. You know, like when you made an electro magnet
> out of a nail and wire? Does it matter which way the current flows to make
> North and South . . . that sort of thing. So, today, I changed the power
> and ground sources and the relay energized just fine. I have 27 volts
> everywhere except on the output big terminal on the relay. Hence,
no voltage
> to the system buss. The output measures in the neighborhood of 3 to
> 5 volts. so . . . . . tomorrow, I'll mount the relays as they were, upside
> down compared the the preferred mounting diagram that came with the
> relay, and see what happens.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
Pretty ambitious project outline you've got going here, Gary!
(1) As everyone knows, the air inlet to the carb (via two air boxes) on the
AG5B Tiger leaves a LOT to be desired. In side-by-side testing (on severa
l occasions), one AG5B and the other an AA5B, the AG5B will have up to 1 in
ch of manifold pressure LESS than an AA5B. SO, the first project is to des
ign a better inlet and air-filter box to get back at least some of the lost
pressure and, at the same time, make it easier to remove and replace the c
owling. Wrestling the cowling off of an AG is a pain in the ass. Between
the tail-pipe sticking through the cowling and the air box getting hung up
on the exhaust system, it's a wonder it ever comes off.
Redesigning the induction system is sorely needed.
(2) Then, the Jaguar cowling onto the AG with a Power Flow. Once the inlet
issue is solved the rest is a cake walk. So, Ned, your wait will be over.
Haven't heard the term before. I assume that is the name for your new cowl
ing=3F
(3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . . AN
D . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger. Not just any -B
1B either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a derated
RPM to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40 more usable
hp at 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face.
You've been talking about this parallel valve engine mod for some time. Wa
sn't the IO-360-B1B certified with a CS prop=3F So will the STC (with 10:1 p
istons) include a CS prop=3F Peak HP would be limited to +5% over stock, or
189 hp, to avoid a lot of noise, etc. testing,right=3F Any concerns about wh
at might happen with the demise of 100LL fuel down the road and what the eq
uivalent octane rating will be (detonation margin with 10:1 CR pistons)=3F
(4) Power Flow exhaust onto the IO360-B1B.
Power goes up closer to 200 hp.
(5) Then, a Jaguar cowling onto the AG with the IO360-B1B.
Less drag, more HP. But you really need a CS prop to go with it! And not
the expensive MT prop, either. A Hartzell Scimitar, blended airfoil compos
ite blade prop!
(6) Wheel pants. I already have some prototypes being built. None of this
RV-10 stuff either. Those wheel pants just look wrong. My plane will be
wearing a new nose wheel pant shortly to see if it's feasible to use existi
ng mounting hardware.
Never did like the looks of the RV-10 pants either. Get rid of the complex
and costly pivot bracket concept! Most planes land on asphalt and I've se
en enough cracked and broken plastic fairings to think that the pivot conce
pt wasn't all that beneficial anyhow.
(7) I've hired a DER who got the Texas Tail Dragger STC. 'nuf said.
After all of the above you may get the speed up to around what a Mooney 201
does at similar fuel flows. That would be a hugh accomplishment! Roy LoP
resti would be proud!
Cliff
--
We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
The Professional version does not have this message
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AG5B wiring question |
>I could really use a wiring diagram for this plane. So far, the
>current flow logic isn't making sense. Anyone know what the cannon
>plug code is? Back in the old days, I could read the number on the
>wire and look it up. All of these wires are covered with expando sleeve.
>
>Help. Anyone.
Gary, what is the part number for the 24 v master relay you used? gil A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
Hey Cliff,
The first time I sat in a Tiger with the new cowling, the first thing I th
ought was, "Looks a lot like looking over the hood of an early Jaguar."
So, for the lack of anything better, and being cat related . . . .
I was also planning on the Hartzell Scimitar prop. The other props are ju
st to outdated. Every time I fly I wish I had a CS prop.
As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainly
not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's
place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the sevent
ies when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car with close
to 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers always
irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT?
The goal is, and always has been, 165 knots. I'm close.
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 5:31 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
Pretty ambitious project outline you've got going here, Gary!
(1) As everyone knows, the air inlet to the carb (via two air boxes) on th
e AG5B Tiger leaves a LOT to be desired. In side-by-side testing (on seve
ral occasions), one AG5B and the other an AA5B, the AG5B will have up to
1 inch of manifold pressure LESS than an AA5B. SO, the first project is
to design a better inlet and air-filter box to get back at least some of
the lost pressure and, at the same time, make it easier to remove and rep
lace the cowling. Wrestling the cowling off of an AG is a pain in the ass
. Between the tail-pipe sticking through the cowling and the air box gett
ing hung up on the exhaust system, it's a wonder it ever comes off.
Redesigning the induction system is sorely needed.
(2) Then, the Jaguar cowling onto the AG with a Power Flow. Once the inle
t issue is solved the rest is a cake walk. So, Ned, your wait will be ove
r.
Haven't heard the term before. I assume that is the name for your new cow
ling?
(3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . .
AND . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger. Not just an
y -B1B either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a de
rated RPM to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40 more
usable hp at 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face.
You've been talking about this parallel valve engine mod for some time.
Wasn't the IO-360-B1B certified with a CS prop? So will the STC (with 10
:1 pistons) include a CS prop? Peak HP would be limited to +5% over stock
, or 189 hp, to avoid a lot of noise, etc. testing,right? Any concerns ab
out what might happen with the demise of 100LL fuel down the road and what
the equivalent octane rating will be (detonation margin with 10:1 CR pist
ons)?
(4) Power Flow exhaust onto the IO360-B1B.
Power goes up closer to 200 hp.
(5) Then, a Jaguar cowling onto the AG with the IO360-B1B.
Less drag, more HP. But you really need a CS prop to go with it! And not
the expensive MT prop, either. A Hartzell Scimitar, blended airfoil comp
osite blade prop!
(6) Wheel pants. I already have some prototypes being built. None of thi
s RV-10 stuff either. Those wheel pants just look wrong. My plane will
be wearing a new nose wheel pant shortly to see if it's feasible to use
existing mounting hardware.
Never did like the looks of the RV-10 pants either. Get rid of the comple
x and costly pivot bracket concept! Most planes land on asphalt and I've
seen enough cracked and broken plastic fairings to think that the pivot
concept wasn't all that beneficial anyhow.
(7) I've hired a DER who got the Texas Tail Dragger STC. 'nuf said.
After all of the above you may get the speed up to around what a Mooney 20
1 does at similar fuel flows. That would be a hugh accomplishment! Roy
LoPresti would be proud!
Cliff
We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
SPAMfighion does not have this message.
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AG5B wiring question |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
something with a dash 903 on the end.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 6:50 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
Icould really use a wiring diagram for this plane. So far, thecurrent flo
w logic isn't making sense. Anyone know what the cannonplug code is? Bac
k in the old days, I could read the number on thewire and look it up. All
of these wires are covered with expandosleeve.
Help. Anyone.
Gary, what is the part number for the 24 v master relay youused? gil A
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
Please educate the ignorant.
Why would it have to be de-rated? FAA regs regarding High
Performance category?
Just curious...
>> 3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . .
>> AND . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a
Tiger. Not just any -B1B
>> either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a
derated RPM
>> to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40 more
>> usable hp at 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | goldpilot(at)AOL.COM |
| Subject: | Re: Master/Starter solenoids....... |
Hi Gary: There might be diodes across the coils in the solenoids. These
protect the rest of the system from the reverse polarity surge produced by
the collapsing magnetic fields.
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AG5B wiring question |
Need more numbers to get a data sheet....:^) gil A
At 11:35 AM 12/16/2009, you wrote:
>something with a dash 903 on the end.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net>
>To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 6:50 am
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
>
>>I could really use a wiring diagram for this plane. So far, the
>>current flow logic isn't making sense. Anyone know what the cannon
>>plug code is? Back in the old days, I could read the number on the
>>wire and look it up. All of these wires are covered with expando sleeve.
>>
>>Help. Anyone.
>
>
>Gary, what is the part number for the 24 v master relay you used? gil A
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Mutzman <rcmutz(at)msn.com> |
Gary=2C
I think you need a break over the next couple of weeks. Not only are you a
sking yourself questions=2C you are now answering yourself! :)
Richard Mutzman
N399RM
Dayton=2C OH (Home of AYA 2010)
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=92s powerful SPAM protection.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
Will Matthew Broderick's chimpanzees be flying the Project X first
flight?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
The paperwork involved in increasing horsepower isn't worth the aggravatio
n.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Massaro <lmassaro@tac-eng.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:16 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
Please educate the ignorant.
Why would it have to be de-rated? FAA regs regarding HighPerformance cate
gory?
Just curious...
>> 3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust
back onto Project X . . . .
>> AND . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B
into a Tiger. Not just any -B1B
>> either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons
certified at a derated RPM
>> to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates
about 40 more
>> usable hp at 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to
any face.
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Courtney" <jamey(at)jamescourtney.net> |
Geeze Cliff, he's planning on you going firstJ
Jamey
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
Hey Cliff,
The first time I sat in a Tiger with the new cowling, the first thing I
thought was, "Looks a lot like looking over the hood of an early Jaguar."
So, for the lack of anything better, and being cat related . . . .
I was also planning on the Hartzell Scimitar prop. The other props are just
to outdated. Every time I fly I wish I had a CS prop.
As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainly
not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's
place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the seventies
when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car with close to
11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers always
irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT?
The goal is, and always has been, 165 knots. I'm close.
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 5:31 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
Pretty ambitious project outline you've got going here, Gary!
(1) As everyone knows, the air inlet to the carb (via two air boxes) on the
AG5B Tiger leaves a LOT to be desired. In side-by-side testing (on several
occasions), one AG5B and the other an AA5B, the AG5B will have up to 1 inch
of manifold pressure LESS than an AA5B. SO, the first project is to design
a better inlet and air-filter box to get back at least some of the lost
pressure and, at the same time, make it easier to remove and replace the
cowling. Wrestling the cowling off of an AG is a pain in the ass. Between
the tail-pipe sticking through the cowling and the air box getting hung up
on the exhaust system, it's a wonder it ever comes off.
Redesigning the induction system is sorely needed.
(2) Then, the Jaguar cowling onto the AG with a Power Flow. Once the inlet
issue is solved the rest is a cake walk. So, Ned, your wait will be over.
Haven't heard the term before. I assume that is the name for your new
cowling?
(3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . . AND
. . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger. Not just any -B1B
either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a derated RPM
to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40 more usable hp at
2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face.
You've been talking about this parallel valve engine mod for some time.
Wasn't the IO-360-B1B certified with a CS prop? So will the STC (with 10:1
pistons) include a CS prop? Peak HP would be limited to +5% over stock, or
189 hp, to avoid a lot of noise, etc. testing,right? Any concerns about
what might happen with the demise of 100LL fuel down the road and what the
equivalent octane rating will be (detonation margin with 10:1 CR pistons)?
(4) Power Flow exhaust onto the IO360-B1B.
Power goes up closer to 200 hp.
(5) Then, a Jaguar cowling onto the AG with the IO360-B1B.
Less drag, more HP. But you really need a CS prop to go with it! And not
the expensive MT prop, either. A Hartzell Scimitar, blended airfoil
composite blade prop!
(6) Wheel pants. I already have some prototypes being built. None of this
RV-10 stuff either. Those wheel pants just look wrong. My plane will be
wearing a new nose wheel pant shortly to see if it's feasible to use
existing mounting hardware.
Never did like the looks of the RV-10 pants either. Get rid of the complex
and costly pivot bracket concept! Most planes land on asphalt and I've seen
enough cracked and broken plastic fairings to think that the pivot concept
wasn't all that beneficial anyhow.
(7) I've hired a DER who got the Texas Tail Dragger STC. 'nuf said.
After all of the above you may get the speed up to around what a Mooney 201
does at similar fuel flows. That would be a hugh accomplishment! Roy
LoPresti would be proud!
Cliff
_____
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SPAMfighion does not have this message.
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08:02:00
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
| From: | "Cliff Hanson" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
Gary, I think Jaguar is a very good name for the cowling.
But you didn't respond to my question of the CS prop with the IO-360-B1B
(is that the right model #?) engine. Was that engine certified with a CS
Hartzell prop? If you don't use that combination won't the FAA give you
real grief (read cost you lots more $$$) about getting something else
STC'd? There are LOTS of good reasons for going with a CS prop and in the
overall scheem of things what is another $6K additional for a prop
considering the cost of the overall modification, especially when you
consider the benefits? With all the changes and improvements you are
talking about and the resulting speed gain you are beyond the region where
a fixed prop works very well. It is to big of a compromise and takeoff
and climb performace suffers if the prop is pitched for cruise conditions.
Go for the CS prop - don't screw around.
Cliff
> Hey Cliff,
>
>
> The first time I sat in a Tiger with the new cowling, the first thing I
> thought was, "Looks a lot like looking over the hood of an early Jaguar."
> So, for the lack of anything better, and being cat related . . . .
>
>
> I was also planning on the Hartzell Scimitar prop. The other props are
> just to outdated. Every time I fly I wish I had a CS prop.
>
>
> As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainly
> not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's
> place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the
> seventies when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car with
> close to 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers
> always irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT?
>
>
> The goal is, and always has been, 165 knots. I'm close.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 5:31 am
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
>
>
> Pretty ambitious project outline you've got going here, Gary!
>
> (1) As everyone knows, the air inlet to the carb (via two air boxes) on
> the AG5B Tiger leaves a LOT to be desired. In side-by-side testing (on
> several occasions), one AG5B and the other an AA5B, the AG5B will have up
> to 1 inch of manifold pressure LESS than an AA5B. SO, the first project
> is to design a better inlet and air-filter box to get back at least some
> of the lost pressure and, at the same time, make it easier to remove and
> replace the cowling. Wrestling the cowling off of an AG is a pain in the
> ass. Between the tail-pipe sticking through the cowling and the air box
> getting hung up on the exhaust system, it's a wonder it ever comes off.
>
> Redesigning the induction system is sorely needed.
>
>
> (2) Then, the Jaguar cowling onto the AG with a Power Flow. Once the
> inlet issue is solved the rest is a cake walk. So, Ned, your wait will be
> over.
>
>
> Haven't heard the term before. I assume that is the name for your new
> cowling?
>
> (3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . .
> AND . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger. Not just any
> -B1B either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a
> derated RPM to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40
> more usable hp at 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face.
>
> You've been talking about this parallel valve engine mod for some time.
> Wasn't the IO-360-B1B certified with a CS prop? So will the STC (with
> 10:1 pistons) include a CS prop? Peak HP would be limited to +5% over
> stock, or 189 hp, to avoid a lot of noise, etc. testing,right? Any
> concerns about what might happen with the demise of 100LL fuel down the
> road and what the equivalent octane rating will be (detonation margin with
> 10:1 CR pistons)?
>
>
> (4) Power Flow exhaust onto the IO360-B1B.
>
> Power goes up closer to 200 hp.
>
>
> (5) Then, a Jaguar cowling onto the AG with the IO360-B1B.
>
> Less drag, more HP. But you really need a CS prop to go with it! And not
> the expensive MT prop, either. A Hartzell Scimitar, blended airfoil
> composite blade prop!
>
>
> (6) Wheel pants. I already have some prototypes being built. None of
> this RV-10 stuff either. Those wheel pants just look wrong. My plane
> will be wearing a new nose wheel pant shortly to see if it's feasible to
> use existing mounting hardware.
>
> Never did like the looks of the RV-10 pants either. Get rid of the
> complex and costly pivot bracket concept! Most planes land on asphalt and
> I've seen enough cracked and broken plastic fairings to think that the
> pivot concept wasn't all that beneficial anyhow.
>
>
> (7) I've hired a DER who got the Texas Tail Dragger STC. 'nuf said.
>
> After all of the above you may get the speed up to around what a Mooney
> 201 does at similar fuel flows. That would be a hugh accomplishment! Roy
> LoPresti would be proud!
>
> Cliff
>
>
> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
> SPAMfighion does not have this message.
>
>
> ===================================
> ===================================
> ===================================
> ===================================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cliff Hanson" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
I kind of noted that, but then I am older (a little) thn he is. He
was just making the point that 100LL will be around longer than we will be
flying, and I agree.
Cliff
> Geeze Cliff, he's planning on you going firstJ
>
>
> Jamey
>
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> teamgrumman(at)aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 10:34 AM
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
>
>
> Hey Cliff,
>
>
> The first time I sat in a Tiger with the new cowling, the first thing I
> thought was, "Looks a lot like looking over the hood of an early Jaguar."
> So, for the lack of anything better, and being cat related . . . .
>
>
> I was also planning on the Hartzell Scimitar prop. The other props are
> just
> to outdated. Every time I fly I wish I had a CS prop.
>
>
> As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainly
> not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's
> place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the
> seventies
> when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car with close to
> 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers always
> irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT?
>
>
> The goal is, and always has been, 165 knots. I'm close.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 5:31 am
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
>
> Pretty ambitious project outline you've got going here, Gary!
>
>
> (1) As everyone knows, the air inlet to the carb (via two air boxes) on
> the
> AG5B Tiger leaves a LOT to be desired. In side-by-side testing (on
> several
> occasions), one AG5B and the other an AA5B, the AG5B will have up to 1
> inch
> of manifold pressure LESS than an AA5B. SO, the first project is to
> design
> a better inlet and air-filter box to get back at least some of the lost
> pressure and, at the same time, make it easier to remove and replace the
> cowling. Wrestling the cowling off of an AG is a pain in the ass.
> Between
> the tail-pipe sticking through the cowling and the air box getting hung up
> on the exhaust system, it's a wonder it ever comes off.
>
>
> Redesigning the induction system is sorely needed.
>
>
> (2) Then, the Jaguar cowling onto the AG with a Power Flow. Once the
> inlet
> issue is solved the rest is a cake walk. So, Ned, your wait will be over.
>
>
> Haven't heard the term before. I assume that is the name for your new
> cowling?
>
>
> (3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . .
> AND
> . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger. Not just any
> -B1B
> either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a derated
> RPM
> to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40 more usable hp
> at
> 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face.
>
>
> You've been talking about this parallel valve engine mod for some time.
> Wasn't the IO-360-B1B certified with a CS prop? So will the STC (with
> 10:1
> pistons) include a CS prop? Peak HP would be limited to +5% over stock,
> or
> 189 hp, to avoid a lot of noise, etc. testing,right? Any concerns about
> what might happen with the demise of 100LL fuel down the road and what the
> equivalent octane rating will be (detonation margin with 10:1 CR pistons)?
>
>
> (4) Power Flow exhaust onto the IO360-B1B.
>
>
> Power goes up closer to 200 hp.
>
>
> (5) Then, a Jaguar cowling onto the AG with the IO360-B1B.
>
>
> Less drag, more HP. But you really need a CS prop to go with it! And not
> the expensive MT prop, either. A Hartzell Scimitar, blended airfoil
> composite blade prop!
>
>
> (6) Wheel pants. I already have some prototypes being built. None of
> this
> RV-10 stuff either. Those wheel pants just look wrong. My plane will be
> wearing a new nose wheel pant shortly to see if it's feasible to use
> existing mounting hardware.
>
>
> Never did like the looks of the RV-10 pants either. Get rid of the
> complex
> and costly pivot bracket concept! Most planes land on asphalt and I've
> seen
> enough cracked and broken plastic fairings to think that the pivot concept
> wasn't all that beneficial anyhow.
>
>
> (7) I've hired a DER who got the Texas Tail Dragger STC. 'nuf said.
>
>
> After all of the above you may get the speed up to around what a Mooney
> 201
> does at similar fuel flows. That would be a hugh accomplishment! Roy
> LoPresti would be proud!
>
>
> Cliff
>
>
> _____
>
> .
> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
> SPAMfighion does not have this message.
>
>
> ===================================
> ric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> thelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
> ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ===================================
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> 08:02:00
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
| From: | "Cliff Hanson" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
5% increase in power is allowed without changing the rated HP of the
engine, which would entail a LOT more testing and specifically expensive
noise testing (thanks to the EPA).
Cliff
> Please educate the ignorant.
> Why would it have to be de-rated? FAA regs regarding High
> Performance category?
> Just curious...
>
>
> >> 3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . .
> .
> >> AND . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a
> Tiger. Not just any -B1B
> >> either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a
> derated RPM
> >> to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40 more
> >> usable hp at 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
Cliff,
That had to be a typo. I think Gary meant B1E which is a constant
speed aft facing carb model
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Courtney" <jamey(at)jamescourtney.net> |
I know, just thought it was funny. I also hope they stick with 100LL until
they have a true drop-in replacement but I'm not as confident. It really is
small potatoes as far as the big picture is concerned. That said, if you're
a government agency, it's also a lot easier to cripple the relatively small
community of GA and give yourself a gold star/check+/smiley face than to fix
our electricity and automotive infrastructure which might affect the
majority of the electorate. Sigh.
I hope you're both right and around for a long time for reasons independent
of avGas.
Best,
Jamey
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cliff
Hanson
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 6:42 AM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
I kind of noted that, but then I am older (a little) thn he is. He
was just making the point that 100LL will be around longer than we will be
flying, and I agree.
Cliff
> Geeze Cliff, he's planning on you going firstJ
>
>
> Jamey
>
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> teamgrumman(at)aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 10:34 AM
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
>
>
> Hey Cliff,
>
>
> The first time I sat in a Tiger with the new cowling, the first thing I
> thought was, "Looks a lot like looking over the hood of an early Jaguar."
> So, for the lack of anything better, and being cat related . . . .
>
>
> I was also planning on the Hartzell Scimitar prop. The other props are
> just
> to outdated. Every time I fly I wish I had a CS prop.
>
>
> As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainly
> not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's
> place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the
> seventies
> when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car with close to
> 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers always
> irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT?
>
>
> The goal is, and always has been, 165 knots. I'm close.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 5:31 am
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
>
> Pretty ambitious project outline you've got going here, Gary!
>
>
> (1) As everyone knows, the air inlet to the carb (via two air boxes) on
> the
> AG5B Tiger leaves a LOT to be desired. In side-by-side testing (on
> several
> occasions), one AG5B and the other an AA5B, the AG5B will have up to 1
> inch
> of manifold pressure LESS than an AA5B. SO, the first project is to
> design
> a better inlet and air-filter box to get back at least some of the lost
> pressure and, at the same time, make it easier to remove and replace the
> cowling. Wrestling the cowling off of an AG is a pain in the ass.
> Between
> the tail-pipe sticking through the cowling and the air box getting hung up
> on the exhaust system, it's a wonder it ever comes off.
>
>
> Redesigning the induction system is sorely needed.
>
>
> (2) Then, the Jaguar cowling onto the AG with a Power Flow. Once the
> inlet
> issue is solved the rest is a cake walk. So, Ned, your wait will be over.
>
>
> Haven't heard the term before. I assume that is the name for your new
> cowling?
>
>
> (3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . .
> AND
> . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger. Not just any
> -B1B
> either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a derated
> RPM
> to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40 more usable hp
> at
> 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face.
>
>
> You've been talking about this parallel valve engine mod for some time.
> Wasn't the IO-360-B1B certified with a CS prop? So will the STC (with
> 10:1
> pistons) include a CS prop? Peak HP would be limited to +5% over stock,
> or
> 189 hp, to avoid a lot of noise, etc. testing,right? Any concerns about
> what might happen with the demise of 100LL fuel down the road and what the
> equivalent octane rating will be (detonation margin with 10:1 CR pistons)?
>
>
> (4) Power Flow exhaust onto the IO360-B1B.
>
>
> Power goes up closer to 200 hp.
>
>
> (5) Then, a Jaguar cowling onto the AG with the IO360-B1B.
>
>
> Less drag, more HP. But you really need a CS prop to go with it! And not
> the expensive MT prop, either. A Hartzell Scimitar, blended airfoil
> composite blade prop!
>
>
> (6) Wheel pants. I already have some prototypes being built. None of
> this
> RV-10 stuff either. Those wheel pants just look wrong. My plane will be
> wearing a new nose wheel pant shortly to see if it's feasible to use
> existing mounting hardware.
>
>
> Never did like the looks of the RV-10 pants either. Get rid of the
> complex
> and costly pivot bracket concept! Most planes land on asphalt and I've
> seen
> enough cracked and broken plastic fairings to think that the pivot concept
> wasn't all that beneficial anyhow.
>
>
> (7) I've hired a DER who got the Texas Tail Dragger STC. 'nuf said.
>
>
> After all of the above you may get the speed up to around what a Mooney
> 201
> does at similar fuel flows. That would be a hugh accomplishment! Roy
> LoPresti would be proud!
>
>
> Cliff
>
>
> _____
>
> .
> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
> SPAMfighion does not have this message.
>
>
> ===================================
> ric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> thelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
> ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ===================================
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> 08:02:00
>
>
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
19:52:00
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
....and I'd like to report that the only source of TEL (the lead in
100LL) in Ellsemere Port on the River Mersey was still in action
about 3 weeks ago. As a kid, I could see the always burning waste
gases flame from the refinery from across the river - it's still burning...
I realized my wife had never been on the "Ferry across the Mersey" -
which now a tourist boat trip around, and the southern end of the
route was by the TEL factory, so I actually got a closer look this
time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loyRYFUYg9g We were even on
the same boat as the 1965 clip - the Woodvale, now renamed Snowdrop.
Lead has been extracted from this Cheshire area since Roman times,
and the area along this portion of the River Mersey and Manchester
ship canal to Widnes/Runcorn is one of the centers of the UK chemical
industry - think ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) The chemical
industry is the life blood of this area and is fully unionized.
gil A
At 07:41 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>I kind of noted that, but then I am older (a little) thn he is. He
>was just making the point that 100LL will be around longer than we will be
>flying, and I agree.
>
>Cliff
>
>...
> > As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainly
> > not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's
> > place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the
> > seventies
> > when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car with close to
> > 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers always
> > irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> |
Gil Alexander wrote:
>
>
> ....and I'd like to report that the only source of TEL (the lead in
> 100LL) in Ellsemere Port on the River Mersey was still in action about
> 3 weeks ago. As a kid, I could see the always burning waste gases
> flame from the refinery from across the river - it's still burning...
>
> I realized my wife had never been on the "Ferry across the Mersey" -
> which now a tourist boat trip around, and the southern end of the
> route was by the TEL factory, so I actually got a closer look this
> time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loyRYFUYg9g We were even on the
> same boat as the 1965 clip - the Woodvale, now renamed Snowdrop.
Thanks for the clip!!! When songs had words, melody, and were
enjoyable! One of my favorites. If the Mersey had been any more narrow
(it seems) they wouldn't have been able to finish the song before the
ferry docked!!! :-P
>
> Lead has been extracted from this Cheshire area since Roman times, and
> the area along this portion of the River Mersey and Manchester ship
> canal to Widnes/Runcorn is one of the centers of the UK chemical
> industry - think ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) The chemical
> industry is the life blood of this area and is fully unionized.
When I was working as a programmer, I did some work on a 105 MM Howitzer
powder bag loader in Indiana at the Indiana Army Ammunition plant .....
and the contract was with ICI. Never knew until now what ICI meant!!! =-O
Linn
>
>
> gil A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
I think our era of time will be looked back upon as quite an illogical
one.
This "post-modern" philosophy that we experience today, where
epistomology is characterized by the masses believing that truth is
known as that which is ascerted by those in power rather than
determined through evidence, will hopefully end with a quick return to
true science. Perhaps we will see thus happen and then again have no
worries about minute quantities TEL and other political nonsense such
as man caused global warming. If not we may soon see a return to horse
driven vehicles and just dream of the days of flying......
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 17, 2009, at 10:01 AM, Gil Alexander
wrote:
> >
>
> ....and I'd like to report that the only source of TEL (the lead in
> 100LL) in Ellsemere Port on the River Mersey was still in action
> about 3 weeks ago. As a kid, I could see the always burning waste
> gases flame from the refinery from across the river - it's still
> burning...
>
> I realized my wife had never been on the "Ferry across the Mersey" -
> which now a tourist boat trip around, and the southern end of the
> route was by the TEL factory, so I actually got a closer look this
> time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loyRYFUYg9g We were even on
> the same boat as the 1965 clip - the Woodvale, now renamed Snowdrop.
>
> Lead has been extracted from this Cheshire area since Roman times,
> and the area along this portion of the River Mersey and Manchester
> ship canal to Widnes/Runcorn is one of the centers of the UK
> chemical industry - think ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) The
> chemical industry is the life blood of this area and is fully
> unionized.
>
> gil A
>
> At 07:41 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:
>> >
>>
>> I kind of noted that, but then I am older (a little) thn he is.
>> He
>> was just making the point that 100LL will be around longer than we
>> will be
>> flying, and I agree.
>>
>> Cliff
>>
>> ...
>> > As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and
>> certainly
>> > not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to
>> take it's
>> > place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the
>> > seventies
>> > when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car with
>> close to
>> > 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers
>> always
>> > irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AG5B wiring question |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
it's a white-rogers 70-903
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:09 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
Need more numbers to get a data sheet....:^) gil A
At 11:35 AM 12/16/2009, you wrote:
something with a dash 903 on the end.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 6:50 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
I could really use a wiringdiagram for this plane. So far, the current fl
ow logic isn't makingsense. Anyone know what the cannon plug code is? Ba
ck in theold days, I could read the number on the wire and look it up. Al
lof these wires are covered with expando sleeve.
Help. Anyone.
Gary, what is the part number for the 24 v master relay youused? gil A
========================
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
I'm the only one who's answers I listen to.
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Mutzman <rcmutz(at)msn.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 6:37 pm
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Gary
Gary,
I think you need a break over the next couple of weeks. Not only are you
asking yourself questions, you are now answering yourself! :)
Richard Mutzman
N399RM
Dayton, OH (Home of AYA 2010)
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=99s powerful SPAM protection.
Sign up now.
========================
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========================
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
The IO360-B1B was used on a Piper Arrow. It was a CS engine. The hard pa
rt will be getting Hartzell to give up the data for the FAA approval.
-----Original Message-----
From: Cliff Hanson <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>
Sent: Thu, Dec 17, 2009 6:09 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
.com>
Gary, I think Jaguar is a very good name for the cowling.
But you didn't respond to my question of the CS prop with the IO-360-B1B
(is that the right model #?) engine. Was that engine certified with a CS
Hartzell prop? If you don't use that combination won't the FAA give you
real grief (read cost you lots more $$$) about getting something else
STC'd? There are LOTS of good reasons for going with a CS prop and in the
overall scheem of things what is another $6K additional for a prop
considering the cost of the overall modification, especially when you
consider the benefits? With all the changes and improvements you are
talking about and the resulting speed gain you are beyond the region where
a fixed prop works very well. It is to big of a compromise and takeoff
and climb performace suffers if the prop is pitched for cruise conditions.
Go for the CS prop - don't screw around.
Cliff
> Hey Cliff,
>
>
> The first time I sat in a Tiger with the new cowling, the first thing I
> thought was, "Looks a lot like looking over the hood of an early Jaguar.
"
> So, for the lack of anything better, and being cat related . . . .
>
>
> I was also planning on the Hartzell Scimitar prop. The other props are
> just to outdated. Every time I fly I wish I had a CS prop.
>
>
> As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainl
y
> not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's
> place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the
> seventies when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car wi
th
> close to 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers
> always irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGH
T?
>
>
> The goal is, and always has been, 165 knots. I'm close.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 5:31 am
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
>
>
> Pretty ambitious project outline you've got going here, Gary!
>
> (1) As everyone knows, the air inlet to the carb (via two air boxes) on
> the AG5B Tiger leaves a LOT to be desired. In side-by-side testing (on
> several occasions), one AG5B and the other an AA5B, the AG5B will have
up
> to 1 inch of manifold pressure LESS than an AA5B. SO, the first project
> is to design a better inlet and air-filter box to get back at least some
> of the lost pressure and, at the same time, make it easier to remove and
> replace the cowling. Wrestling the cowling off of an AG is a pain in th
e
> ass. Between the tail-pipe sticking through the cowling and the air box
> getting hung up on the exhaust system, it's a wonder it ever comes off.
>
> Redesigning the induction system is sorely needed.
>
>
> (2) Then, the Jaguar cowling onto the AG with a Power Flow. Once the
> inlet issue is solved the rest is a cake walk. So, Ned, your wait will
be
> over.
>
>
> Haven't heard the term before. I assume that is the name for your new
> cowling?
>
> (3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . .
> AND . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger. Not just
any
> -B1B either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a
> derated RPM to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40
> more usable hp at 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face.
>
> You've been talking about this parallel valve engine mod for some time.
> Wasn't the IO-360-B1B certified with a CS prop? So will the STC (with
> 10:1 pistons) include a CS prop? Peak HP would be limited to +5% over
> stock, or 189 hp, to avoid a lot of noise, etc. testing,right? Any
> concerns about what might happen with the demise of 100LL fuel down the
> road and what the equivalent octane rating will be (detonation margin wi
th
> 10:1 CR pistons)?
>
>
> (4) Power Flow exhaust onto the IO360-B1B.
>
> Power goes up closer to 200 hp.
>
>
> (5) Then, a Jaguar cowling onto the AG with the IO360-B1B.
>
> Less drag, more HP. But you really need a CS prop to go with it! And
not
> the expensive MT prop, either. A Hartzell Scimitar, blended airfoil
> composite blade prop!
>
>
> (6) Wheel pants. I already have some prototypes being built. None of
> this RV-10 stuff either. Those wheel pants just look wrong. My plane
> will be wearing a new nose wheel pant shortly to see if it's feasible to
> use existing mounting hardware.
>
> Never did like the looks of the RV-10 pants either. Get rid of the
> complex and costly pivot bracket concept! Most planes land on asphalt
and
> I've seen enough cracked and broken plastic fairings to think that the
> pivot concept wasn't all that beneficial anyhow.
>
>
> (7) I've hired a DER who got the Texas Tail Dragger STC. 'nuf said.
>
> After all of the above you may get the speed up to around what a Mooney
> 201 does at similar fuel flows. That would be a hugh accomplishment!
Roy
> LoPresti would be proud!
>
> Cliff
>
>
> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
> SPAMfighion does not have this message.
>
>
> ========================
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> ========================
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> ========================
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> ========================
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>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
Oh, yea, did I say B1B? OOOps. B1E.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net>
Sent: Thu, Dec 17, 2009 7:09 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
Cliff,
That had to be a typo. I think Gary meant B1E which is a constant speed af
t facing carb model
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
========================
============
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============
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============
========================
============
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AG5B wiring question |
Gary... the relay is fully isolated, and has no installed diodes.
It is not polarized, so hooking up plus and minus 24v on the two
smaller terminals can be done in either direction.
The coil resistance is 60 ohms, which you could use as a check on your wiring.
Unlike some of the other relays, there is no connection from the
relay coil to the large relay contacts.
As far as I can tell from the data sheet, the case (ground when
installed) is isolated from all of the internal workings.
http://www.stancor.com/wrdstc/pdfs/pg87_90.pdf
gil A
At 10:02 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:
>it's a white-rogers 70-903
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net>
>To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:09 pm
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
>
>Need more numbers to get a data sheet....:^) gil A
>
>At 11:35 AM 12/16/2009, you wrote:
>>something with a dash 903 on the end.
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Gil Alexander <<mailto:gilalex(at)earthlink.net>gilalex(at)earthlink.net>
>>To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>>Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 6:50 am
>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
>>
>>>I could really use a wiring diagram for this plane. So far, the
>>>current flow logic isn't making sense. Anyone know what the
>>>cannon plug code is? Back in the old days, I could read the
>>>number on the wire and look it up. All of these wires are covered
>>>with expando sleeve.
>>>
>>>Help. Anyone.
>>
>>
>>Gary, what is the part number for the 24 v master relay you used? gil A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AG5B wiring question |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
Thanks Gil,
I think the problem on the AG5B has more to do with grounds. I've been ab
le to jump across from a battery and get the relay to energize, it just do
esn't pass the voltage to the other side. I'm going to try another one.
I was able to get 27 volts to the buss line, but, nothing came on inside
the plane. I think the myriad of ground wires on the outside need to be
connected to get the power to come on inside. AGs are strange birds. Su
cks to have a special ground to turn power on. I'm so used to putting pow
er onto the buss and having everything come on. Not a big deal. I'll sor
t this out too.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Thu, Dec 17, 2009 10:19 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
Gary... the relay is fully isolated, and has no installeddiodes.
It is not polarized, so hooking up plus and minus 24v on the two smallerte
rminals can be done in either direction.
The coil resistance is 60 ohms, which you could use as a check on yourwiri
ng.
Unlike some of the other relays, there is no connection from the relaycoil
to the large relay contacts.
As far as I can tell from the data sheet, the case (ground wheninstalled)
is isolated from all of the internal workings.
http://www.stancor.com/wrdstc/pdfs/pg87_90.pdf
gil A
At 10:02 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:
it's awhite-rogers 70-903
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:09 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
Need more numbers to get a data sheet....:^) gil A
At 11:35 AM 12/16/2009, you wrote:
something with a dash 903 on theend.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander<gilalex(at)earthlink.net>
To:teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 6:50 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
I could really use a wiringdiagram for this plane. So far, the current fl
ow logic isn't makingsense. Anyone know what the cannon plug code is? Ba
ck in theold days, I could read the number on the wire and look it up. Al
lof these wires are covered with expando sleeve.
Help. Anyone.
Gary, what is the part number for the 24 v master relay youused? gil A
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
And what's going to happen to their economy when we quit using leaded fuel?
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gil Alexander" <gilalex(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 8:01 AM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
>
>
> ....and I'd like to report that the only source of TEL (the lead in 100LL)
> in Ellsemere Port on the River Mersey was still in action about 3 weeks
> ago. As a kid, I could see the always burning waste gases flame from the
> refinery from across the river - it's still burning...
>
> I realized my wife had never been on the "Ferry across the Mersey" - which
> now a tourist boat trip around, and the southern end of the route was by
> the TEL factory, so I actually got a closer look this time.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loyRYFUYg9g We were even on the same boat
> as the 1965 clip - the Woodvale, now renamed Snowdrop.
>
> Lead has been extracted from this Cheshire area since Roman times, and the
> area along this portion of the River Mersey and Manchester ship canal to
> Widnes/Runcorn is one of the centers of the UK chemical industry - think
> ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) The chemical industry is the life
> blood of this area and is fully unionized.
>
> gil A
>
> At 07:41 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>I kind of noted that, but then I am older (a little) thn he is. He
>>was just making the point that 100LL will be around longer than we will be
>>flying, and I agree.
>>
>>Cliff
>>
>>...
>> > As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and
>> > certainly
>> > not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to take
>> > it's
>> > place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the
>> > seventies
>> > when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car with close
>> > to
>> > 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers always
>> > irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT?
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
The 1967, 68, 69 Arrow had the 180 hp B1E engine and in 1969 they added
the 200 hp C1C engine (angle valve) and continued with the B1E for
another couple of years.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
Oh, yea, did I say B1B? OOOps. B1E.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thu, Dec 17, 2009 7:09 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
Cliff,
That had to be a typo. I think Gary meant B1E which is a constant
speed aft facing carb model
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
===========
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m" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
ist"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
===========
ttp://forums.matronics.com
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
The TEL portion is an insignificant percentage of the chemical
industry in that area.
The Romans started it off with salt mining - hence all of the
Cheshire towns ending in "---wich"
The unions will keep the general chemical industry going as long as
there is a market.... even if the Conservative party gains power next
year....:^)
The company web site statement on lead in aviation fuel is here....
http://www.innospecinc.com/octane-additives.html
gil A
At 07:37 PM 12/17/2009, flyv35b wrote:
>
>And what's going to happen to their economy when we quit using leaded fuel?
>
>Cliff
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Alexander" <gilalex(at)earthlink.net>
>To:
>Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 8:01 AM
>Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
>
>
>>
>>....and I'd like to report that the only source of TEL (the lead in
>>100LL) in Ellsemere Port on the River Mersey was still in action
>>about 3 weeks ago. As a kid, I could see the always burning waste
>>gases flame from the refinery from across the river - it's still burning...
>>
>>I realized my wife had never been on the "Ferry across the Mersey"
>>- which now a tourist boat trip around, and the southern end of the
>>route was by the TEL factory, so I actually got a closer look this
>>time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loyRYFUYg9g We were even on
>>the same boat as the 1965 clip - the Woodvale, now renamed Snowdrop.
>>
>>Lead has been extracted from this Cheshire area since Roman times,
>>and the area along this portion of the River Mersey and Manchester
>>ship canal to Widnes/Runcorn is one of the centers of the UK
>>chemical industry - think ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) The
>>chemical industry is the life blood of this area and is fully unionized.
>>
>>gil A
>>
>>At 07:41 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>I kind of noted that, but then I am older (a little) thn he is. He
>>>was just making the point that 100LL will be around longer than we will be
>>>flying, and I agree.
>>>
>>>Cliff
>>>
>>>...
>>> > As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time
>>> and > certainly
>>> > not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to
>>> take > it's
>>> > place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the
>>> > seventies
>>> > when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car
>>> with close > to
>>> > 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers always
>>> > irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
They claim to be the only source for TEL.
This raises my curiosity about the source for lead in Chinese
manufactured toys / paints.
Where does that lead come from?
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 17, 2009, at 9:34 PM, Gil Alexander
wrote:
> >
>
> The TEL portion is an insignificant percentage of the chemical
> industry in that area.
>
> The Romans started it off with salt mining - hence all of the
> Cheshire towns ending in "---wich"
>
> The unions will keep the general chemical industry going as long as
> there is a market.... even if the Conservative party gains power
> next year....:^)
>
> The company web site statement on lead in aviation fuel is here....
>
> http://www.innospecinc.com/octane-additives.html
>
> gil A
>
> At 07:37 PM 12/17/2009, flyv35b wrote:
>> >
>>
>> And what's going to happen to their economy when we quit using
>> leaded fuel?
>>
>> Cliff
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Alexander" <gilalex(at)earthlink.net
>> >
>> To:
>> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 8:01 AM
>> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
>>
>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> ....and I'd like to report that the only source of TEL (the lead
>>> in 100LL) in Ellsemere Port on the River Mersey was still in
>>> action about 3 weeks ago. As a kid, I could see the always
>>> burning waste gases flame from the refinery from across the river
>>> - it's still burning...
>>>
>>> I realized my wife had never been on the "Ferry across the Mersey"
>>> - which now a tourist boat trip around, and the southern end of
>>> the route was by the TEL factory, so I actually got a closer look
>>> this time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loyRYFUYg9g We were
>>> even on the same boat as the 1965 clip - the Woodvale, now renamed
>>> Snowdrop.
>>>
>>> Lead has been extracted from this Cheshire area since Roman times,
>>> and the area along this portion of the River Mersey and Manchester
>>> ship canal to Widnes/Runcorn is one of the centers of the UK
>>> chemical industry - think ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) The
>>> chemical industry is the life blood of this area and is fully
>>> unionized.
>>>
>>> gil A
>>>
>>> At 07:41 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> I kind of noted that, but then I am older (a little) thn he is.
>>>> He
>>>> was just making the point that 100LL will be around longer than
>>>> we will be
>>>> flying, and I agree.
>>>>
>>>> Cliff
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>> > As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and
>>>> > certainly
>>>> > not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to
>>>> take > it's
>>>> > place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in
>>>> the
>>>> > seventies
>>>> > when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car
>>>> with close > to
>>>> > 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers
>>>> always
>>>> > irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss.
>>>> RIGHT?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
From their pencil lead factory???
Sorry, it's raining and a lousy day ..... couldn't resist!!!
Linn
Ned Thomas wrote:
>
> They claim to be the only source for TEL.
>
> This raises my curiosity about the source for lead in Chinese
> manufactured toys / paints.
>
> Where does that lead come from?
> Ned
>
> Sent from my iPhone
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
Hi Ned,
In spite of the English claiming "green" credentials, lead in it's
solid form can be bought at any home supply store.
It is used in the sheeting form as flashing for tile roofs, and on
older structures, such as churches, for the entire roof.
Lot's of lead floating around, I think TEL is just a specialized
version that happens to be an octane booster, as Innospec labels it
on their web site.
gil A - just back from 8+ weeks in cold, wet Liverpool...
At 08:10 AM 12/18/2009, Ned Thomas wrote:
>
>They claim to be the only source for TEL.
>
>This raises my curiosity about the source for lead in Chinese
>manufactured toys / paints.
>
>Where does that lead come from?
>Ned
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Dec 17, 2009, at 9:34 PM, Gil Alexander
>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>The TEL portion is an insignificant percentage of the chemical
>>industry in that area.
>>
>>The Romans started it off with salt mining - hence all of the
>>Cheshire towns ending in "---wich"
>>
>>The unions will keep the general chemical industry going as long as
>>there is a market.... even if the Conservative party gains power
>>next year....:^)
>>
>>The company web site statement on lead in aviation fuel is here....
>>
>>http://www.innospecinc.com/octane-additives.html
>>
>>gil A
>>
>>At 07:37 PM 12/17/2009, flyv35b wrote:
>>>
>>>And what's going to happen to their economy when we quit using
>>>leaded fuel?
>>>
>>>Cliff
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Alexander" <gilalex(at)earthlink.net >
>>>To:
>>>Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 8:01 AM
>>>Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>....and I'd like to report that the only source of TEL (the lead
>>>>in 100LL) in Ellsemere Port on the River Mersey was still in
>>>>action about 3 weeks ago. As a kid, I could see the always
>>>>burning waste gases flame from the refinery from across the river
>>>>- it's still burning...
>>>>
>>>>I realized my wife had never been on the "Ferry across the Mersey"
>>>>- which now a tourist boat trip around, and the southern end of
>>>>the route was by the TEL factory, so I actually got a closer look
>>>>this time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loyRYFUYg9g We were
>>>>even on the same boat as the 1965 clip - the Woodvale, now renamed
>>>>Snowdrop.
>>>>
>>>>Lead has been extracted from this Cheshire area since Roman times,
>>>>and the area along this portion of the River Mersey and Manchester
>>>>ship canal to Widnes/Runcorn is one of the centers of the UK
>>>>chemical industry - think ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) The
>>>>chemical industry is the life blood of this area and is fully
>>>>unionized.
>>>>
>>>>gil A
>>>>
>>>>At 07:41 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I kind of noted that, but then I am older (a little) thn he is.
>>>>> He
>>>>>was just making the point that 100LL will be around longer than
>>>>>we will be
>>>>>flying, and I agree.
>>>>>
>>>>>Cliff
>>>>>
>>>>>...
>>>>> > As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and
>>>>> > certainly
>>>>> > not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to
>>>>>take > it's
>>>>> > place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in
>>>>>the
>>>>> > seventies
>>>>> > when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car
>>>>>with close > to
>>>>> > 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers
>>>>>always
>>>>> > irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss.
>>>>>RIGHT?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | AG5B wiring question: SOLVED |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
As it turns out, I had all the wiring correct. What I didn't know was, th
e 7 ground wires on the firewall side need to be grounded to the battery
. . . NOT THE AIRFRAME. The AG depends on ground wires coming through
the big cannon plug in order to turn things on inside. And, using the va
cuum filter . . . . well, what can I say? It's a crappy design at best.
As soon as I created a common ground and ran that wire to the battery,
everything worked.
And, for all you AG owners out there, remove the fuse to the hobbs meter
and then test for voltage on the hobbs. It's still there. Now, pull all
of the circuit breakers and fuses. It's still there. I've tried tracing
down that one. I got lost in all the un-numbered wires.
And, another 'for all you AG owners out there.' if your fuel gauges don't
work quite right, it's the grounds riveted to the rib opposite the fuel
tank sending unit. The plating on the rib prevents a very good ground.
NOTE: AGs don't use the fuel tank for ground. Just remove the ground,
cut near the rivet, and install a new ground next to it with a PK screw
and tinnerman. Remember to sand off the coating.
I have a dedicated ground buss in my plane. Under the glareshield, away
from the corrosive conditions in the engine compartment. I have one wire
from the ground buss to the engine mount. I really can't see running all
those grounds through the firewall.
-----Original Message-----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Thu, Dec 17, 2009 12:41 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
Thanks Gil,
I think the problem on the AG5B has more to do with grounds. I've been ab
le to jump across from a battery and get the relay to energize, it just do
esn't pass the voltage to the other side. I'm going to try another one.
I was able to get 27 volts to the buss line, but, nothing came on inside
the plane. I think the myriad of ground wires on the outside need to be
connected to get the power to come on inside. AGs are strange birds. Su
cks to have a special ground to turn power on. I'm so used to putting pow
er onto the buss and having everything come on. Not a big deal. I'll sor
t this out too.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Thu, Dec 17, 2009 10:19 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
Gary... the relay is fully isolated, and has no installeddiodes.
It is not polarized, so hooking up plus and minus 24v on the two smallerte
rminals can be done in either direction.
The coil resistance is 60 ohms, which you could use as a check on yourwiri
ng.
Unlike some of the other relays, there is no connection from the relaycoil
to the large relay contacts.
As far as I can tell from the data sheet, the case (ground wheninstalled)
is isolated from all of the internal workings.
http://www.stancor.com/wrdstc/pdfs/pg87_90.pdf
gil A
At 10:02 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:
it's awhite-rogers 70-903
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:09 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
Need more numbers to get a data sheet....:^) gil A
At 11:35 AM 12/16/2009, you wrote:
something with a dash 903 on theend.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander<gilalex(at)earthlink.net>
To:teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 6:50 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
I could really use a wiringdiagram for this plane. So far, the current fl
ow logic isn't makingsense. Anyone know what the cannon plug code is? Ba
ck in theold days, I could read the number on the wire and look it up. Al
lof these wires are covered with expando sleeve.
Help. Anyone.
Gary, what is the part number for the 24 v master relay youused? gil A
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ric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
thelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Feinstein" <david(at)newlangsyne.com> |
Rant mode ON.
Here are three hourly reports from the Home Drome this morning.
KBDR 191552Z 02013G20KT 10SM BKN055 BKN070 M05/M20 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP098 T10501200
KBDR 191452Z 04012KT 10SM OVC060 M05/M22 A2989 RMK AO2 SLP119 T10501217 58007
KBDR 191352Z 03010KT 10SM BKN080 M04/M22 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP125 T10441217
My student and I started our taxi about 1500Z (middle report). Ground
controller wanted to know our intentions.
"Closed traffic."
"Unable closed traffic due to limited visibility and haze."
Once back inside, I called the tower and asked the guy what his visibility
criterion was for pattern work, because I didn't want to waste my students'
time if he wouldn't let us practice. He said that the tower visibility was
poor to the southwest and he was having trouble spotting airplanes. I looked
off in that direction and noticed the Northport stacks, 20 miles away.
They walk among us. And we pay them.
Somebody on the Mooney list recently compared controllers who can't work
without radar to pilots who can't live without GPS. I have to disagree a
little bit. The GPS-crippled pilot can at least take off and land.
Bridgeport, Connecticut. Where safety is assured by keeping pilots on the
ground or outside the ATA. Kind of severe, but it works.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Feinstein" <david(at)newlangsyne.com> |
Rant mode ON.
Here are three hourly reports from the Home Drome this morning.
KBDR 191552Z 02013G20KT 10SM BKN055 BKN070 M05/M20 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP098 T10501200
KBDR 191452Z 04012KT 10SM OVC060 M05/M22 A2989 RMK AO2 SLP119 T10501217 58007
KBDR 191352Z 03010KT 10SM BKN080 M04/M22 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP125 T10441217
My student and I started our taxi about 1500Z (middle report). Ground
controller wanted to know our intentions.
"Closed traffic."
"Unable closed traffic due to limited visibility and haze."
Once back inside, I called the tower and asked the guy what his visibility
criterion was for pattern work, because I didn't want to waste my students'
time if he wouldn't let us practice. He said that the tower visibility was
poor to the southwest and he was having trouble spotting airplanes. I looked
off in that direction and noticed the Northport stacks, 20 miles away.
They walk among us. And we pay them.
Somebody on the Mooney list recently compared controllers who can't work
without radar to pilots who can't live without GPS. I have to disagree a
little bit. The GPS-crippled pilot can at least take off and land.
Bridgeport, Connecticut. Where safety is assured by keeping pilots on the
ground or outside the ATA. Kind of severe, but it works.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: why we need ATC |
Why don't you carry this email with you and talk to the tower chief
directly. I don't fly into my local towered airport much anymore, but
when I did I knew the tower chief on a first-name basis.
Linn
David Feinstein wrote:
>
> Rant mode ON.
>
> Here are three hourly reports from the Home Drome this morning.
>
> KBDR 191552Z 02013G20KT 10SM BKN055 BKN070 M05/M20 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP098 T10501200
> KBDR 191452Z 04012KT 10SM OVC060 M05/M22 A2989 RMK AO2 SLP119 T10501217 58007
> KBDR 191352Z 03010KT 10SM BKN080 M04/M22 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP125 T10441217
>
> My student and I started our taxi about 1500Z (middle report). Ground
> controller wanted to know our intentions.
>
> "Closed traffic."
>
> "Unable closed traffic due to limited visibility and haze."
>
> Once back inside, I called the tower and asked the guy what his visibility
> criterion was for pattern work, because I didn't want to waste my students'
> time if he wouldn't let us practice. He said that the tower visibility was
> poor to the southwest and he was having trouble spotting airplanes. I looked
> off in that direction and noticed the Northport stacks, 20 miles away.
>
> They walk among us. And we pay them.
>
> Somebody on the Mooney list recently compared controllers who can't work
> without radar to pilots who can't live without GPS. I have to disagree a
> little bit. The GPS-crippled pilot can at least take off and land.
>
> Bridgeport, Connecticut. Where safety is assured by keeping pilots on the
> ground or outside the ATA. Kind of severe, but it works.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Curry <don.curry(at)inbox.com> |
There are several tings you can do if you believe you received less-than-satisfactory
service from ATC. First, I believe BDR is a contract-tower location and
Midwest ATC Services has the contract. So the first thing you can do is call
Midwest at 913-782-7082 and explain your experience. You can also file a complaint
on the FAA Hotline (866-835-5322). If you want to talk with the BDR tower
chief, you certainly can do that, but remember, s/he is the person who enables
that particular controller to continue to work on a daily basis, so you
will probably be waisting your time. You can also talk with your FSDO, but I
don't believe the FSDOs have anything to do with ATC, so that would probably also
be a waste of time. However, you might do some good talking with the FAA
Eastern Service Area office (ASO-510) that handles contract towers. Their number
should be 404-305-7133. That is a Southern Region number, but they handle
contract towers for Eastern and New England regions, too. You can also call
the FAA Regional Office for your Region and speak with someone in the Air Traffic
Division. Now, go improve the system!
Good luck,
Don
> -----Original Message-----
> From: david(at)newlangsyne.com
> To: blind(at)carneyaviation.com
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: why we need ATC
>
>
>
> Rant mode ON.
>
> Here are three hourly reports from the Home Drome this morning.
>
> KBDR 191552Z 02013G20KT 10SM BKN055 BKN070 M05/M20 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP098
> T10501200
> KBDR 191452Z 04012KT 10SM OVC060 M05/M22 A2989 RMK AO2 SLP119 T10501217
> 58007
> KBDR 191352Z 03010KT 10SM BKN080 M04/M22 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP125 T10441217
>
> My student and I started our taxi about 1500Z (middle report). Ground
> controller wanted to know our intentions.
>
> "Closed traffic."
>
> "Unable closed traffic due to limited visibility and haze."
>
> Once back inside, I called the tower and asked the guy what his
> visibility
> criterion was for pattern work, because I didn't want to waste my
> students'
> time if he wouldn't let us practice. He said that the tower visibility
> was
> poor to the southwest and he was having trouble spotting airplanes. I
> looked
> off in that direction and noticed the Northport stacks, 20 miles away.
>
> They walk among us. And we pay them.
>
> Somebody on the Mooney list recently compared controllers who can't work
> without radar to pilots who can't live without GPS. I have to disagree a
> little bit. The GPS-crippled pilot can at least take off and land.
>
> Bridgeport, Connecticut. Where safety is assured by keeping pilots on
> the
> ground or outside the ATA. Kind of severe, but it works.
>
____________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | 2009 List of Contributors |
Dear Listers,
The 2009 Matronics Email List and Forum Fund Raiser officially ended a couple of
weeks ago and its time that I publish this year's List of Contributors. Its
the people on this list that directly make the Email Lists and Forums possible.
Their generous
contributions keep the servers and Internet connection up and running.
You can still show your support this year and pick up a great gift at the same
time. The Contribution Web Site is fast, easy, and secure:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I also want to thank Bob, Jon, Andy, and John for their generous support through
the supply of great gifts this year!! These guys have some great products and
I encourage you to visit their respective web sites:
Bob Nucklolls - AeroElectric - www.aeroelectric.com
Jon Croke - HomebuiltHELP - www.homebuilthelp.com
Andy Gold - The Builder's Bookstore - www.buildersbooks.com
John Caldwell - HowToCrimp - www.howtocrimp.com
And finally, I'm proud to present The 2009 Fund Raiser List of Contributors:
http://www.matronics.com/loc/2009.html
Thanks again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | don't take your plane to . . . |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
There is a small town 30 minutes (by plane) south of here called Columbia,
CA. The town itself is beautiful. The town was restored to the late 180
0s and you can pan for gold in the river. The school was also restored.
Two story. Lots of steps. Not for those with a weak heart. There is
als an airport nearby.
Two years ago, I got a Tiger from a customer who lives in Columbia. The
plane has 1400 hours on it. Straight airframe. Good restoration project
. . . but, I digress. That Tiger had been maintained by the guys there
in Columbia since it was new. Let's just say that the prop AD had never
been done, the rear spinner bulkhead had so many different holes in it th
at there was no way to put it on straight. When I got the plane, the spin
ner run-out was 3/8 inches at the bulkhead. and that was only the beginni
ng. $10,000 later, the plane was airworthy.
The Project X plane was also maintained in Columbia. The brake lines are
so mangled that all I can say is, "It's a good thing there are no wheel
pants." The nose torque tube is broken; apparently has been for a while.
The prop was indexed wrong. Pulled the seats. The hardware was wrong,
bolts, that happens. BUT, the Clevis screws in the back, the ones with
the spacer and large washer? Long gone. In their place was a countersun
k screw tightened until the seat could still be installed, a bolt with no
spacer or washer, a 5/16 inch bolt that looks like it had been turned dow
n to 1/4 inches to fit with a standard washer on it and one clevis screw
without the washer.
And you should have seen the installation of the JPI with fuel flow. Let'
s just say, "I'll give it points for creativity."
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Smith <haveblue1(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: don't take your plane to . . . |
Gary,
You gotta write a book!
Bruce Smith
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 21, 2009, at 2:50 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
> There is a small town 30 minutes (by plane) south of here called
> Columbia, CA. The town itself is beautiful. The town was restored
> to the late 1800s and you can pan for gold in the river. The
> school was also restored. Two story. Lots of steps. Not for those
> with a weak heart. There is als an airport nearby.
>
> Two years ago, I got a Tiger from a customer who lives in Columbia.
> The plane has 1400 hours on it. Straight airframe. Good
> restoration project . . . but, I digress. That Tiger had been
> maintained by the guys there in Columbia since it was new. Let's
> just say that the prop AD had never been done, the rear spinner
> bulkhead had so many different holes in it that there was no way to
> put it on straight. When I got the plane, the spinner run-out was
> 3/8 inches at the bulkhead. and that was only the beginning.
> $10,000 later, the plane was airworthy.
>
> The Project X plane was also maintained in Columbia. The brake
> lines are so mangled that all I can say is, "It's a good thing there
> are no wheel pants." The nose torque tube is broken; apparently has
> been for a while. The prop was indexed wrong. Pulled the seats.
> The hardware was wrong, bolts, that happens. BUT, the Clevis screws
> in the back, the ones with the spacer and large washer? Long gone.
> In their place was a countersunk screw tightened until the seat
> could still be installed, a bolt with no spacer or washer, a 5/16
> inch bolt that looks like it had been turned down to 1/4 inches to
> fit with a standard washer on it and one clevis screw without the
> washer.
>
> And you should have seen the installation of the JPI with fuel
> flow. Let's just say, "I'll give it points for creativity."
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: don't take your plane to . . . |
...but it's a nice place to visit if you don't get any maintenance done....
My only complaint was that the quaint hotel had add-on air
conditioning, which combined with the quaint, leaky single-pane
windows gave a very hot room when it was 108 F outside.
Still worth a visit though.... gil A
At 12:50 PM 12/21/2009, you wrote:
>There is a small town 30 minutes (by plane) south of here called
>Columbia, CA. The town itself is beautiful. The town was restored
>to the late 1800s and you can pan for gold in the river. The
>school was also restored. Two story. Lots of steps. Not for those
>with a weak heart. There is als an airport nearby.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: (no subject) |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
New owner writes, "dont forget to post the #2 cylinder story to teamgrumma
n list."
Oh, yea, that Tiger maintained in Columbia . . . .
During the prebuy, the compression on #2 was about 60/80. I could hear ai
r from the exhaust. A quick look at the log books showed that it's been
going down over the last 5 years: 72, 70, 65, 65, 60. Then, last year,
the rocker cover gasket was changed and the compression went to 75/80.
That mechanic is worth his weight in gold.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Garner Rice <garnerrice(at)hotmail.com> |
Merry Christmas to all. FletchAir will be shutting up shop from noon of Dec
ember 24th till January 4th.
2009 has probably been the most challenging year I have had in the
last 24 years of doing this Grumman stuff. The economy has really taken it
s toll on many this year. Friends=2C customers=2C suppliers and many other
general aviation companies have felt the crunch of these times. It seems GA
takes the biggest hit and is the slowest to recover. I'm happy to say good
bye to 09 and look forward to 2010 and the new Part 21 compliance.
With 2009 coming to an end=2C I'd like to say thanks for the support ov
er the past year=2C both professionally and personally.
These aircraft are really great aircraft=2C but doesn't hold a candle t
o those that fly them.
I will be heading up to Michigan to pick up an ill fated Grumman and br
ing it to its final resting place in our Grumman cemetery. She was only 32
years old and had so much life left in her. She gave great pleasure to many
and will be missed by the clouds as the sky goes silent. She will be laid
to rest in Comfort=2C but her legacy will live on. She will donate many of
her salvageable organs to those in need. Sympathy cards can be sent here
=2C preferably MasterCard.
Although we will be shut down=2C I as well as David will be close and a
vailable should you break one of the "six" rudder springs on your Grumman.
grin in 2010
Garner Rice
FletchAir=2C Inc.
713-594-2908 cell
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: rumman-List: |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
Garner,
A big thanks to you, Minnie, Celise, and John for keeping me in parts this
year. My customers feel the same. We, the entire Grumman Team, are all
grateful Celise is doiing well. And John, well, if you believe the story
that he tried to miss a dear, that's up to you. Personally, I think he
was texting.
A road trip to Michigan in winter. Hmmm. Let''s see. Could be interesti
ng; especially towing a trailer.
Take Care and send a Merry to the family,
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: Garner Rice <garnerrice(at)hotmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 2:37 pm
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List:
Merry Christmas to all. FletchAir will be shutting up shop from noon of De
cember 24th till January 4th.
2009 has probably been the most challenging year I have had in th
e last 24 years of doing this Grumman stuff. The economy has really taken
its toll on many this year. Friends, customers, suppliers and many other
general aviation companies have felt the crunch of these times. It seems
GA takes the biggest hit and is the slowest to recover. I'm happy to say
goodbye to 09 and look forward to 2010 and the new Part 21 compliance.
With 2009 coming to an end, I'd like to say thanks for the support ove
r the past year, both professionally and personally.
These aircraft are really great aircraft, but doesn't hold a candle to
those that fly them.
I will be heading up to Michigan to pick up an ill fated Grumman and
bring it to its final resting place in our Grumman cemetery. She was only
32 years old and had so much life left in her. She gave great pleasure to
many and will be missed by the clouds as the sky goes silent. She will
be laid to rest in Comfort, but her legacy will live on. She will donate
many of her salvageable organs to those in need. Sympathy cards can be se
nt here, preferably MasterCard.
Although we will be shut down, I as well as David will be close and av
ailable should you break one of the "six" rudder springs on your Grumman.
grin in 2010
Garner Rice
FletchAir, Inc.
713-594-2908 cell
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with secu01/' target='_new'>Get it now.
========================
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | weight and balance questions |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
Pitot: The AG5B shows a moment arm of 122.65 inches. The main landing ge
ar is at 100.15 inches.
The AA5B has the pitot at 88.01. What moves the CG nearly 3 fee
t aft on an AG5B?
What moves the arm almost two feet aft of the main landing gear
(100.15 inches) on an AG5B?
Landing Light: The AG5B shows the landing light arm at 101.96 inches.
Again, this is behind the landing gear. The CG of
the wheel pants is 99.76 inches.
Not only that, the leading edge of the wing is given
as 75.68 inches.
What puts the landing light CG over two feet behind
the leading edge?
Spar: What is the moment arm for the centerline of the spar? My best gu
ess is 88.5 inches for the CG.
Step Strips: These are at 89.5 inches.
12 Volt Aux Power outlet for AG5B: This is at 113.2 inches.
Is that due to a 24 to 12 volt converter being mounted
somewhere?
Maybe under the back seat perhaps? I've never seen on
e.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance question |
>Pitot: The AG5B shows a moment arm of 122.65 inches. The main landing
>gear is at 100.15 inches. The AA5B has the pitot at 88.01. What moves
>the CG nearly 3 feet aft on an AG5B?
>
>What moves the arm almost two feet aft of the main landing gear (100.15
>inches) on an AG5B?
>
>Landing Light: The AG5B shows the landing light arm at 101.96 inches.
>Again, this is behind the landing gear. The CG of the wheel pants is
>99.76 inches.
>Not only that, the leading edge of the wing is given as 75.68 inches.
>What puts the landing light CG over two feet behind the leading edge?
>
>Spar: What is the moment arm for the centerline of the spar? My best
>guess is 88.5 inches for the CG. Step Strips: These are at 89.5 inches.
>
>12 Volt Aux Power outlet for AG5B: This is at 113.2 inches. Is that due
>to a 24 to 12 volt converter being mounted somewhere? Maybe under the
>back seat perhaps? I've never seen one.
I think the most obvious answer is where the AG-5Bs were certified and
produced. Mississippi and West Virginia!
As we say in Alabama: "Thank God for Mississippi (and Arkansas), or Alabama
would be dead last in everything!" And those who bother to look at the
national rankings of things other than Football would see that Alabama
ranks 46-48th most years, beating out only West Virginia, Arkansas,
Louisiana, and MISSISSIPPI! With Mississippi being the only one we
consistently beat.
Therefore, I think the edumacational system in Mississippi and West
Virginia is to blame.
Bob Steward
Birmingham, AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
I pulled the carpets out of the project plane. Here's a good one. The ca
rpets were cut around the brake master cylinders and installed all the way
to the front. The carpets had a 1/2 inch of sound deadening material sew
n to the backing. The carpets weighed 10 lbs.
I also removed the side panels. Interesting installation. no screws. Ve
lcro was sewn to sound deadening material (3/8 in thick) which was then gl
ued to the side walls. It was nearly impossible to get the side panels of
f. Oh, yea, the arm rests were riveted to the side panels.
The aluminum side kick panels were gone. Carpet was glued to the side wal
ls. A ONE-PIECE carpet from the firewall to the back seat was glued halfw
ay up the side wall. Then, the aluminum side panels were velcroed on top
of that. ALL of the avionics wiring is under the sound deadening materia
l on the side walls.
OK, so, once I got the carpet on the floor off and started cleaning 30 yea
rs of crap out from under the console, I noticed the floor looked like the
bed of a truck that just had a load of gravel dumped into it. Did someon
e beat the shit out of it with a ball peen hammer?
Maybe the installer was pissed off because the owner wanted the carpets un
der the brake master cylinders.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Project plane |
Maybe the installer was pissed off because the owner wanted the carpets
under the brake master cylinders.
Why run the carpet under the MC? So the carpet can soak up all the
brake fluid that is spilled! I can't believe the shit you run into,
Gary. Must have something to do with California Grumman maintenance!
(Not you of course)
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:08 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Project plane
I pulled the carpets out of the project plane. Here's a good one.
The carpets were cut around the brake master cylinders and installed all
the way to the front. The carpets had a 1/2 inch of sound deadening
material sewn to the backing. The carpets weighed 10 lbs.
I also removed the side panels. Interesting installation. no screws.
Velcro was sewn to sound deadening material (3/8 in thick) which was
then glued to the side walls. It was nearly impossible to get the side
panels off. Oh, yea, the arm rests were riveted to the side panels.
The aluminum side kick panels were gone. Carpet was glued to the side
walls. A ONE-PIECE carpet from the firewall to the back seat was glued
halfway up the side wall. Then, the aluminum side panels were velcroed
on top of that. ALL of the avionics wiring is under the sound deadening
material on the side walls.
OK, so, once I got the carpet on the floor off and started cleaning 30
years of crap out from under the console, I noticed the floor looked
like the bed of a truck that just had a load of gravel dumped into it.
Did someone beat the shit out of it with a ball peen hammer?
Maybe the installer was pissed off because the owner wanted the
carpets under the brake master cylinders.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Project plane |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
What can I say? Maybe I'm too picky.
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 30, 2009 11:51 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project plane
Maybe the installer was pissed off because the owner wanted the carpets un
der the brake master cylinders.
Why run the carpet under the MC? So the carpet can soak up all the brake
fluid that is spilled! I can't believe the shit you run into, Gary. Mus
t have something to do with California Grumman maintenance! (Not you of co
urse)
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:08 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Project plane
I pulled the carpets out of the project plane. Here's a good one. The
carpets were cut around the brake master cylinders and installed all th
e way to the front. The carpets had a 1/2 inch of sound deadening mater
ial sewn to the backing. The carpets weighed 10 lbs.
I also removed the side panels. Interesting installation. no screws.
Velcro was sewn to sound deadening material (3/8 in thick) which was
then glued to the side walls. It was nearly impossible to get the side
panels off. Oh, yea, the arm rests were riveted to the side panels.
The aluminum side kick panels were gone. Carpet was glued to the side
walls. A ONE-PIECE carpet from the firewall to the back seat was glued
halfway up the side wall. Then, the aluminum side panels were velcroed
on top of that. ALL of the avionics wiring is under the sound deadenin
g material on the side walls.
OK, so, once I got the carpet on the floor off and started cleaning 30
years of crap out from under the console, I noticed the floor looked like
the bed of a truck that just had a load of gravel dumped into it. Did
someone beat the shit out of it with a ball peen hammer?
Maybe the installer was pissed off because the owner wanted the carpets
under the brake master cylinders.
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href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
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href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch
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ronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
========================
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========================
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Project plane |
Not at all! I think that there is just a lot of VERY sloppy work out
there and apparently many mechanics and owners have very low standards
and are happy with mediocre work or even worse! I suppose some owners
are just plain ignorant about what kind of work is being done but there
are others who pinch every penny and put a lot of pressure on their
mechanic to get by as cheaply as possible. I tell my customers when I
first start maintaining their planes that I won't cut corners and if
they don't want me to maintain their plane like I maintain my own then
they can take it elsewhere. None of them seem to have a problem with
that. I'm sure that's probably the case with you but then there are
those first time annuals on planes that have had years of deferred
maintenance!
As an example of the opposite, I'm doing an annual on a Tiger now that
had an ignition miss on one magneto. After pulling all the spark plugs,
cleaning and testing them I couldn't find any problem. It still ran
rough (3 cylinders firing). The mags have only 600 hrs since new and
about 70 hrs since a 500 hrs inspection. Nothing obviously wrong with
the mags but the ignition harness appears to have a lead that is
resulting in misfiring of one plug. The owner said let's just put two
new mags, new harness and plugs on. He always wants to go overboard the
other way when it comes to maintenance. He doesn't want to take any
chances and doesn't want to be stranded up in Canada out in the
boondocks with a mechanical problem. I like that kind of customer!
Maintaining his plane is a joy.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project plane
What can I say? Maybe I'm too picky.
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, Dec 30, 2009 11:51 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project plane
Maybe the installer was pissed off because the owner wanted the
carpets under the brake master cylinders.
Why run the carpet under the MC? So the carpet can soak up all the
brake fluid that is spilled! I can't believe the shit you run into,
Gary. Must have something to do with California Grumman maintenance!
(Not you of course)
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:08 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Project plane
I pulled the carpets out of the project plane. Here's a good one.
The carpets were cut around the brake master cylinders and installed all
the way to the front. The carpets had a 1/2 inch of sound deadening
material sewn to the backing. The carpets weighed 10 lbs.
I also removed the side panels. Interesting installation. no
screws. Velcro was sewn to sound deadening material (3/8 in thick)
which was then glued to the side walls. It was nearly impossible to get
the side panels off. Oh, yea, the arm rests were riveted to the side
panels.
The aluminum side kick panels were gone. Carpet was glued to the
side walls. A ONE-PIECE carpet from the firewall to the back seat was
glued halfway up the side wall. Then, the aluminum side panels were
velcroed on top of that. ALL of the avionics wiring is under the sound
deadening material on the side walls.
OK, so, once I got the carpet on the floor off and started cleaning
30 years of crap out from under the console, I noticed the floor looked
like the bed of a truck that just had a load of gravel dumped into it.
Did someone beat the shit out of it with a ball peen hammer?
Maybe the installer was pissed off because the owner wanted the
carpets under the brake master cylinders.
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
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ric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
thelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
com">www.howtocrimp.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
ttp://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Good Story (was: Project plane) |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
Speaking of magnetos going bad . . . .
Sam Sun became one of my customers a couple of years ago. He had flown to
Washington to see his girlfriend and was on his way back to his home in
San Diego. He was flying back on a Sunday night in the summer of 2007.
I had been visiting a friend in Forest Hill and was driving across the bri
dge about the time the sun was going to set (the Forest Hill bridge is one
of the highest bridges in the U.S., Vin Diesel drove a Corvette off the
bridge in the movie, "Triple X").
The Auburn airport is only a few minutes from there so I decided to drive
to the airport, drive out on the ramp, and watch the sun set. I got to
the airport just before 9pm and got in place on the ramp for the sunset.
Just as the sun was setting (Sun, get it.) I saw a Tiger on final for runw
ay 7. I'm thinking to myself, "Wow, that was awesome."
The Tiger taxied past me, sitting in the back of my Tahoe, and down around
the parking area. When he came back, possibly to take-off again, I got
out and walked up to the plane to see if he needed help.
Sam opened his canopy and said, "I'm looking for Gary Vogt of AuCountry."
I said that's me and had him follow me back to my hangar.
Sam was stressed to the max. The right mag of his LASAR system had quit
about Mt Shasta. Flight following wanted him to land in Redding or Red
Bluff. He decided to fly to Auburn instead. He'd flown the last hour on
one mag.
SO. I got his plane into my hangar, collected his things, and had him in
the Comfort Inn by 10pm.
I ended up doing a LASARectomy on the plane and put in new mags.
A couple of months ago, Sam came back for his owner assisted annual and gu
ess what? After the annual, the right mag didn't work. He had almost 500
hours on it so we pulled it. Luckily, now, we have Magneto Andy in Aubur
n. Andy specializes in Slick mags. The points had failed so Andy replace
d them.
----------------------
Return customers: I have about 35 regular customers. It varies year to
year. It takes about 3 years to totally recover from years of shitty mai
ntenance without making the owner go bankrupt. My most expensive annual
to date just to make the plane airworthy, not perfect, is $14,000. The
most expensive annual with firewall forward restoration, new eyebrow, pan
el overlays and new avionics: $80,000. The cheapest annual was an owner
assisted annual on a plane I've maintained for 6 years and taught the own
er what to do and when: $700 (including repacking the wheel bearings and
cleaning/gapping the plugs).
In 25 years, I have only turned away one customer. Or, to put it bluntly,
refused to work on their TIger. This particular owner constantly second
guessed everything I did. She even took it to different mechanics to see
if what I was telling her was right. It was only after I found a 3 inch
crack in her engine block and she chose to fly the plane instead of fixin
g it, that I decided not to work on her plane. Her reason, "Well, the eng
ine only has 300 hours on it since overhaul. Why should I get a new block
? I can just get this one welded. That what the guys at **** say I can
do. They said new block is a waste of money."
Truth is, the engine never had a real overhaul. The bank that repossessed
it had had a local guy in New Jersey do a quick and dirty overhaul to sel
l the plane. This is the same plane that had the cracked/splintered fiber
glass landing gear. (Remember that story from about 7 years ago?)
I talked to her after she got the block welded and the plane back in the
air. It cost her $19,000. Turned out the crank was bad, the cam was bad
, and it had several bent rods. She still had the block welded and the wh
ole thing put back together. After that, I decided that maybe I wasn't th
e right person to be taking care of her plane.
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>
Sent: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 6:36 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project plane
Not at all! I think that there is just a lot of VERY sloppy work out ther
e and apparently many mechanics and owners have very low standards and are
happy with mediocre work or even worse! I suppose some owners are just
plain ignorant about what kind of work is being done but there are others
who pinch every penny and put a lot of pressure on their mechanic to get
by as cheaply as possible. I tell my customers when I first start mainta
ining their planes that I won't cut corners and if they don't want me to
maintain their plane like I maintain my own then they can take it elsewhe
re. None of them seem to have a problem with that. I'm sure that's proba
bly the case with you but then there are those first time annuals on plane
s that have had years of deferred maintenance!
As an example of the opposite, I'm doing an annual on a Tiger now that had
an ignition miss on one magneto. After pulling all the spark plugs, clea
ning and testing them I couldn't find any problem. It still ran rough (3
cylinders firing). The mags have only 600 hrs since new and about 70 hrs
since a 500 hrs inspection. Nothing obviously wrong with the mags but th
e ignition harness appears to have a lead that is resulting in misfiring
of one plug. The owner said let's just put two new mags, new harness and
plugs on. He always wants to go overboard the other way when it comes to
maintenance. He doesn't want to take any chances and doesn't want to be
stranded up in Canada out in the boondocks with a mechanical problem. I
like that kind of customer! Maintaining his plane is a joy.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project plane
What can I say? Maybe I'm too picky.
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 30, 2009 11:51 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project plane
Maybe the installer was pissed off because the owner wanted the carpets
under the brake master cylinders.
Why run the carpet under the MC? So the carpet can soak up all the brak
e fluid that is spilled! I can't believe the shit you run into, Gary.
Must have something to do with California Grumman maintenance! (Not yo
u of course)
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:08 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Project plane
I pulled the carpets out of the project plane. Here's a good one. Th
e carpets were cut around the brake master cylinders and installed all
the way to the front. The carpets had a 1/2 inch of sound deadening
material sewn to the backing. The carpets weighed 10 lbs.
I also removed the side panels. Interesting installation. no screws.
Velcro was sewn to sound deadening material (3/8 in thick) which was
then glued to the side walls. It was nearly impossible to get the si
de panels off. Oh, yea, the arm rests were riveted to the side panels
.
The aluminum side kick panels were gone. Carpet was glued to the side
walls. A ONE-PIECE carpet from the firewall to the back seat was glu
ed halfway up the side wall. Then, the aluminum side panels were velc
roed on top of that. ALL of the avionics wiring is under the sound de
adening material on the side walls.
OK, so, once I got the carpet on the floor off and started cleaning 30
years of crap out from under the console, I noticed the floor looked li
ke the bed of a truck that just had a load of gravel dumped into it.
Did someone beat the shit out of it with a ball peen hammer?
Maybe the installer was pissed off because the owner wanted the carpets
under the brake master cylinders.
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
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========================
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "923te" <923te(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Good Story another mag story |
Picked up my Cherokee 6 after the just overhauled engine had been
installed and did an initial 5 minute flight then a 30 minute flight to
the shops hangar for a "thorough" checkout. Was told to take it on a
long x-country to break in the rings. So I went to Houston for a 2.5 hr
flight. As I entered the class B, I sensed a slight reduction in power.
I had second thoughts on doing a mag check with the destination just 10
minutes away. I decided just to land at the destination. After landing
and refuelling the engine would not start. Not after half hour of trying
even with a jumper.....sometimes hot starts are tough on the fuel
injected Lycoming. I decided to let the FBO mechanics check into it. Got
a call next day. After they got the LoPrest cowl out of the way they
could immediately see the problem. The right mag cap was hanging loose
on the wires completely off the mag. The left mag had only one of the 3
mag cap screws still attached to the mag with only about 3 threads
holding the last screw to the mag.
After the engine had been overhauled it was reinstalled in the aircraft
on a hot sunny day in a roof only hangar with temps exceeding 110. I
figure the mechanics just got in a hurry and forgot to tighten the mag
caps. Of course they stood behind their work and paid all the bills.
I'm just glad I was so fortionate that the engine would not restart...if
it had I would have had a forced landing probably in the middle of
Houston....
ned
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Good Story another mag story |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
OK, your story was pretty good.
I did an owner assisted annual about 3 years ago. We removed the exhaust
system for a new one. After getting everything back in place, I told the
owner to tighten all the nuts on the exhaust system. I didn't double che
ck his work.
He called after he got home and told me one side of the exhaust system had
fallen off. Lesson learned.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>
Sent: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 1:37 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Good Story another mag story
Picked up my Cherokee 6 after the just overhauled engine had been installe
d and did an initial 5 minute flight then a 30 minute flight to the shops
hangar for a "thorough" checkout. Was told to take it on a long x-country
to break in the rings. So I went to Houston for a 2.5 hr flight. As I ent
ered the class B, I sensed a slight reduction in power. I had second thoug
hts on doing a mag check with the destination just 10 minutes away. I deci
ded just to land at the destination. After landing and refuelling the engi
ne would not start. Not after half hour of trying even with a jumper.....s
ometimes hot starts are tough on the fuel injected Lycoming. I decided to
let the FBO mechanics check into it. Got a call next day. After they got
the LoPrest cowl out of the way they could immediately see the problem.
The right mag cap was hanging loose on the wires completely off the mag.
The left mag had only one of the 3 mag cap screws still attached to the
mag with only about 3 threads holding the last screw to the mag.
After the engine had been overhauled it was reinstalled in the aircraft on
a hot sunny day in a roof only hangar with temps exceeding 110. I figure
the mechanics just got in a hurry and forgot to tighten the mag caps. Of
course they stood behind their work and paid all the bills. I'm just gla
d I was so fortionate that the engine would not restart...if it had I woul
d have had a forced landing probably in the middle of Houston....
ned
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Good Story another mag story |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
OK, your story was pretty good.
I did an owner assisted annual about 3 years ago. We removed the exhaust
system for a new one. After getting everything back in place, I told the
owner to tighten all the nuts on the exhaust system. I didn't double che
ck his work.
He called after he got home and told me one side of the exhaust system had
fallen off. Lesson learned.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>
Sent: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 1:37 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Good Story another mag story
Picked up my Cherokee 6 after the just overhauled engine had been installe
d and did an initial 5 minute flight then a 30 minute flight to the shops
hangar for a "thorough" checkout. Was told to take it on a long x-country
to break in the rings. So I went to Houston for a 2.5 hr flight. As I ent
ered the class B, I sensed a slight reduction in power. I had second thoug
hts on doing a mag check with the destination just 10 minutes away. I deci
ded just to land at the destination. After landing and refuelling the engi
ne would not start. Not after half hour of trying even with a jumper.....s
ometimes hot starts are tough on the fuel injected Lycoming. I decided to
let the FBO mechanics check into it. Got a call next day. After they got
the LoPrest cowl out of the way they could immediately see the problem.
The right mag cap was hanging loose on the wires completely off the mag.
The left mag had only one of the 3 mag cap screws still attached to the
mag with only about 3 threads holding the last screw to the mag.
After the engine had been overhauled it was reinstalled in the aircraft on
a hot sunny day in a roof only hangar with temps exceeding 110. I figure
the mechanics just got in a hurry and forgot to tighten the mag caps. Of
course they stood behind their work and paid all the bills. I'm just gla
d I was so fortionate that the engine would not restart...if it had I woul
d have had a forced landing probably in the middle of Houston....
ned
========================
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | AG5B throttle cable |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
I had to change a throttle cable on an AG5B this weekend. Changing the th
rottle cable should not take 2 hours.
I've never been a big fan of the AG5B. Too many DUMB design decisions wen
t into the plane. The throttle quadrant is an example. While changing th
e throttle cable, I came up with at least 3 different ways it could have
been done to make it easier to service. But, as with most things on the
AG, maintenance was not a priority.
For those of you who haven't seen it:
All three cables, carb heat, throttle, and mixture are held in place in th
e same bracket with the same piece of aluminum (aluminum retainer). So,
to remove one, the aluminum retainer (that holds all three in place) need
s to be removed. Not a big deal, really, if everything stayed in place.
The bracket that the cables lock into:
The bracket has 3 vertical slots, 1.5 inches apart, 1/2 inches long/deep,
with a notch at the top: 2 towards the left side of the bracket and one
toward the right side of the bracket. That's only part of the problem.
You see, when holding everything so the aluminum piece that holds them
in place can be installed, one needs to figure a way to hold them in thei
r respective corners.
The aluminum retainer: it's about .060 thick, I didn't measure it. It has
the same slot spacing as the bracket but, no notch at the top. It's purp
ose is to hold the cable into the notch in the bracket. Problem is . . .
Putting the retainer in place requires that all three cables be pulled tig
ht into the notch; understandable since we really don't want any movement
in the cables. But, getting it together is a real pain in the ass. I wa
s able to get one side in, then, pulling the center cable (the throttle ca
ble) into place and getting the retainer started into that position pulls
it out of the end slot (pivots on the cable), I could get the other end
started, then it would pull out of the first end completely, then . . .
. I tried many attempts. Then, I filed the edge of the retainer slots
at the top so that it could tuck under the cable and lock in place. It
worked a little. I was able to get it started on all three. It's an ext
remely tight fit. There is really nothing to push against. The entire ca
ble support bracket moves when pushed on from the bottom. I got some chan
nel locks and tried to squeeze it together. I thought I had it when one
end came out. I broke the retainer in the middle.
Fortunately, the Project plane was there to donate it's retainer. After
carefully filing the corners of the slots, I worked that retainer into pl
ace. Two hours upside down in a Tiger.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
Gary... do you know anything about a Cheetah 9802U that is based up
your way in N. CA?
A friend on the airpark is considering purchasing it.... gil A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
Gary... do you know anything about a Cheetah 9802U that is based up
your way in N. CA?
A friend on the airpark is considering purchasing it.... gil A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Following our phone conversation about Tiger Cowling |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
You are absolutely right. I need to update my web site. I haven't made
any updates to my web site for years. I need to finish Larry's engine in
stallation. When that's done, I'll post picts of the installation of cowl
ing serial number 001 onto Martin's plane. Then, serial number 002 goes
onto Brian's plane.
-----Original Message-----
From: b v <bvnj(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, Jan 4, 2010 2:04 pm
Subject: Following our phone conversation about Tiger Cowling
Dear Mr. Vogt,
as I mentioned on the phone, LoPresti is offering a promotion right now on
GrummanGang, please see below.
I wonder if you could post an update on www.aucountry.com regarding the la
test
developments with your cowl, maybe more pictures and drawings, the progres
s with
STC-PMA, installation options(full install vs. kit), expected costs, etc.
And
then get the word to the GrummanGang regarding your cowling. Otherwise you
may
loose some potential customers due to lack of information.
Thank you,
-Boris Velednitsky
'78 Tiger N28739
KSMQ, New Jersey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
LoPresti Cheetah and Tiger cowl deal!
Monday, January 4, 2010 2:01 PM
From: "Liz Waymire" <liz(at)loprestiaviation.com>
to my
email posted a couple of weeks
ago. We have 7 owners so far interested in cowls, so we have come up with
a
price that will require 10 commitments by the end of January. I will be
starting a list of those owners who definitely want to take advantage of
this offer. Once 10 owners sign up the list is closed. I will start
another list if necessary, but this deal will not be available to that lis
t
until we have 10 commitments, so please sign up now!
If you are not sure what this deal is for please go to
http://www.loprestiaviation.com/aa5acowl.htm
LoPresti would like to offer Grumman Gang owners a 25% discount off the
regular price of the nose cowl, AND a FREE bottle of Speedcoat to make
cleaning your baby very easy.
This is a great deal, please spread the word, $800-$1000 off the normal li
st
price.
Price for the Traveler (s/n 641 - 834) and Cheetah cowl will be $2546.25
with a FREE bottle of Speedcoat ($39.99 value).
Price for the Tiger nose cowl will be $2996.25 with a FREE bottle of
Speedcoat ($39.99 value).
If you would like to be added to the commitment list, please email me.
Liz Waymire
liz(at)loprestiaviation.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cheetah 9802U |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
No, sorry, never heard of it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Mon, Jan 4, 2010 4:35 pm
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Cheetah 9802U
Gary... do you know anything about a Cheetah9802U that is based up your wa
y in N. CA?
A friend on the airpark is considering purchasing it.... gilA
========================
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cheetah 9802U |
| From: | "az_gila" <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
Thanks Gary.... he's driving up tomorrow to see it.
Perhaps my Tiger will soon have a buddy on the Airpark...:^)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280289#280289
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | here is something you might like |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
http://www.fark.com/cgi/vidplayer.pl?IDLink=4464984
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: here is something you might like |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
copy and paste if it doesn't work.
-----Original Message-----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Thu, Jan 7, 2010 11:47 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: here is something you might like
http://www.fark.com/cgi/vidplayer.pl?IDLink=4464984
========================
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===========
========================
===========
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Smith <haveblue1(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: here is something you might like |
Freakin' awesome.
You had to hear one flyby at an airshow to appreciate the power of the Sled.
Bruce Smith
On Jan 7, 2010, at 3:06 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
> copy and paste if it doesn't work.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Thu, Jan 7, 2010 11:47 am
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: here is something you might like
>
>
> http://www.fark.com/cgi/vidplayer.pl?IDLink=4464984
>
>
> ===================================
> ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ===================================
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: here is something you might like |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
I worked at Edwards from 1982 to 1997. One afternoon, I was on the ramp
investigating a compressor stall on an F-16 and an SR-71 did a very low
altitude pass, at maybe 300 knots, and then a gentile climbing turn. Ver
y pretty. At the time he passed opposite us, he was about 100 AGL. Very
cool
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Smith <haveblue1(at)mac.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 7, 2010 1:53 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: here is something you might like
Freakin' awesome.
You had to hear one flyby at an airshow to appreciate the power of the Sle
d.
Bruce Smith
On Jan 7, 2010, at 3:06 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
copy and paste if it doesn't work.
-----Original Message-----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Thu, Jan 7, 2010 11:47 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: here is something you might like
http://www.fark.com/cgi/vidplayer.pl?IDLink=4464984
========================
===========
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
========================
===========
ttp://forums.matronics.com
========================
===========
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Smith <haveblue1(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: here is something you might like |
Gary,
Compressor stall on a Pratt & Whitney? Never;)
Bruce Smith
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 8, 2010, at 1:27 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
> I worked at Edwards from 1982 to 1997. One afternoon, I was on the
> ramp investigating a compressor stall on an F-16 and an SR-71 did a
> very low altitude pass, at maybe 300 knots, and then a gentile
> climbing turn. Very pretty. At the time he passed opposite us, he
> was about 100 AGL. Very cool
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Smith <haveblue1(at)mac.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Thu, Jan 7, 2010 1:53 pm
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: here is something you might like
>
> Freakin' awesome.
>
> You had to hear one flyby at an airshow to appreciate the power of
> the Sled.
>
> Bruce Smith
>
> On Jan 7, 2010, at 3:06 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>> copy and paste if it doesn't work.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
>> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>> Sent: Thu, Jan 7, 2010 11:47 am
>> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: here is something you might like
>>
>>
>> http://www.fark.com/cgi/vidplayer.pl?IDLink=4464984
>>
>>
>> ===================================
>> ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> ===================================
>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>> ===================================
>> ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ===================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Mutzman <rcmutz(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | RE: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 01/07/10 |
That is b'ching! I want one!
I know what I am doing when I can't get a medical anymore.
Richard Mutzman
N399RM
> Date: Thu=2C 7 Jan 2010 23:59:29 -0800
> From: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> To: teamgrumman-list-digest(at)matronics.com
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 01/07/10
>
> *
>
> ========================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> ========================
>
> Today's complete TeamGrumman-List Digest can also be found in either of t
he
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the TeamGrumman-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text edit
or
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&
Chapter 10-01-07&Archive=TeamGrumman
>
> Text Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&C
hapter 10-01-07&Archive=TeamGrumman
>
>
> ========================
=======================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ========================
=======================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Thu 01/07/10: 3
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 11:49 AM - here is something you might like (teamgrumman(at)aol.com)
> 2. 12:10 PM - Re: here is something you might like (teamgrumman(at)aol.com)
> 3. 01:54 PM - Re: here is something you might like (Bruce Smith)
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1 ______________________________
_______
>
>
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: here is something you might like
> From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
>
>
> http://www.fark.com/cgi/vidplayer.pl?IDLink=4464984
>
> ________________________________ Message 2 ______________________________
_______
>
>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: here is something you might like
> From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
>
> copy and paste if it doesn't work.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
> Sent: Thu=2C Jan 7=2C 2010 11:47 am
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: here is something you might like
>
>
> http://www.fark.com/cgi/vidplayer.pl?IDLink=4464984
>
>
> =======================
> ==========
> =======================
> ==========
> =======================
> ==========
> =======================
> ==========
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3 ______________________________
_______
>
>
> From: Bruce Smith <haveblue1(at)mac.com>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: here is something you might like
>
> Freakin' awesome.
>
> You had to hear one flyby at an airshow to appreciate the power of the Sl
ed.
>
> Bruce Smith
>
> On Jan 7=2C 2010=2C at 3:06 PM=2C teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> > copy and paste if it doesn't work.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
> > To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> > Sent: Thu=2C Jan 7=2C 2010 11:47 am
> > Subject: TeamGrumman-List: here is something you might like
> >
> >
> > http://www.fark.com/cgi/vidplayer.pl?IDLink=4464984
> >
> >
> > =======================
===========
> > ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-L
ist
> > =======================
===========
> > ttp://forums.matronics.com
> > =======================
===========
> > ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> > =======================
===========
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: here is something you might like |
Is it a rumor that the fuel tanks leak at low altitudes / slow speeds?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: here is something you might like |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
LOL. Had to crack up on that one. I worked some -200s. Didn't care for
them much. I worked the -229. It was my favorite. I watched a test run
of a -229x. Very cool.
This particular F-16 had some weird fuel deliver problems. I think the pl
ane was 557, or maybe 456. It was one of my test planes. As I recall, Mi
ke, from West Palm had some trick to fix it. Anyway. Those were the days
. Nothing like riding a -229 F-16 in full AB. 350 knots soon after gear
up and rolling over base housing.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Smith <haveblue1(at)mac.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 8, 2010 11:21 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: here is something you might like
Gary,
Compressor stall on a Pratt & Whitney? Never;)
Bruce Smith
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 8, 2010, at 1:27 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
I worked at Edwards from 1982 to 1997. One afternoon, I was on the ramp
investigating a compressor stall on an F-16 and an SR-71 did a very low
altitude pass, at maybe 300 knots, and then a gentile climbing turn. Ver
y pretty. At the time he passed opposite us, he was about 100 AGL. Very
cool
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Smith <haveblue1(at)mac.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 7, 2010 1:53 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: here is something you might like
Freakin' awesome.
You had to hear one flyby at an airshow to appreciate the power of the Sle
d.
Bruce Smith
On Jan 7, 2010, at 3:06 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
copy and paste if it doesn't work.
-----Original Message-----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Thu, Jan 7, 2010 11:47 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: here is something you might like
http://www.fark.com/cgi/vidplayer.pl?IDLink=4464984
========================
===========
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
========================
===========
ttp://forums.matronics.com
========================
===========
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: here is something you might like |
> From: Ned Thomas <<mailto:923te(at)att.net>923te(at)att.net>
> Subject: Re: here is something you might like
>
> Is it a rumor that the fuel tanks leak at low altitudes / slow speeds?
Leaked like a sieve (by design). Due to thermal expansion at high
speed/temps, when on the ground, many part simply didn't (nor were
designed) to seal well. A friend of mine worked on them in Okinawa
and had some great tales about that plane. Since it was also made
virtually completely of titanium, it had its own special toolset
where tools couldn't have certain elements (like cadmium) in them
which reacted with the titanium.
The engineering of that aircraft, given the era is simply amazing,
especially the propulsion system. The SR-71 was apparently more
efficient the faster it flew (contrary to common sense). You can go
on and on of how amazing a plane it was.
I still love the fact that the official position still is that it was
retired 'cause satellites could replace it. Yeah right. I want to
know what plane replaced it (i.e. Aurora?).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
One of my customers asked me if I'd heard of the Garner Fest going on on
GG. She kindly forwarded some of the accolades. I got to thinking: "W
hat's the big deal? Next year is the Silver Anniversary. This is ONLY 24
years."
My turn:
I started buying parts from Neil Rice in 1984. We talked a lot about engi
neering. I was sad to hear Neil was leaving. It was a lot more fun chatt
ing with him about what-ifs than reading research papers on combustion ins
tabilities in solid propellant rocket motors.
When he left, Chase Masters was the parts guy I talked to. Chase liked Co
rvettes so, at least we had something to talk about. That's about it.
I was ordering aileron bearings the first time I talked to Garner. He ask
ed if I wanted all 20; ten for each wing. In 1986 I didn't know much, bu
t, I was certain there were only two outboard, two inboard, and two under
the seat (which rarely get replaced). All I wanted was the two outboard
bearings. Garner insisted that I need all 20 bearings. I only ordered
the two.
The next time I called, for something entirely different, Garner told me
that Fletchair was going out of business and I needed to order replacemen
t parts for everything on the plane if I wanted to keep flying. I think
by that time, he knew he had a fish-on-the-line. It wasn't long before
I figured him out. Actually, I think it was finding out that Garner and
my dad had the same Birthday; they were both big jokesters. My dad convi
nced one of his contractors that my mom was a 200 lb, 5'10" ex-roller derb
y girl and could kick his as any time. My dad, at the time, was 5'8" 185
lbs, 53 inch chest, 18 3/4 inch arms, and could bench press 360 lbs. The
contractor was scared of my mom. When he finally met her, about a year
later, he didn't believe this 5'4" 115 lb girl was my dad's wife. He nev
er believed another word my dad said. Over the years, I learned the same
thing about Garner.
In 1990, I first met Garner face-to-face in Visalia, CA at the AYA Convent
ion. He was very busy selling parts. We didn't talk much.
At the 1995 AYA Convention in Sunriver Oregon, I was looking forward to fi
nally meeting Minnie after hearing some of Garner's stories about her. Wh
en I saw Garner, I asked about Minnie. He said, and I quote, "She's here
somewhere. Just look for a short, fat, ugly, Mexican girl." At the dinn
er, I saw Garner and Minnie sitting together. I should have guessed.
In 1996, I flew an AG5B Tiger to Sarasota, Florida. The first leg was to
Houston. I stayed with Garner and Minnie. He 'let' me feed the cows and
pigs. I still have pics of a pig standing in water up to it's chest, dri
nking the water, while at the same time peeing into the same water.
In 1997, I flew commercial into . . . . I forget. Anyway, Garner, Minnie
and the kids picked me up on their way to the Bowling Green AYA Conventio
n. I rode with them, worked in their booth selling parts, and then rode
back with them to fly home.
In 1998, I drove to Katy Texas and stayed with Garner, Minnie, and the kid
s for a week. I took planes apart at Fletchair. It was on that trip tha
t I got a scrap AG5B cowling from which I made my cowling. On the first
morning, Minnie fixed breakfast. While we're eating, Minnie asked if I
remember the pig from two years earlier. I said, "Yea, I guess." She to
ld me I was eating him for breakfast. Gotta love it. I also got to meet
Thanksgiving; a turkey whose days were numbered.
The last time I was in Texas was in 2006 for the AYA Convention. For what
ever reason, I missed going to Comfort for the BBQ. Sorry about that.
I'm sure we all have good stories to tell about Garner. And, we all thank
him for knowing part numbers off the top of his head because we are too
lazy to look them up ourselves.
Gary
PS, I sent Garner a stripper for his 40th Birthday. I'll have to top that
for his 50th.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
I began the installation of the second cowling yesterday. This is going
on Martin's plane. It's in for an annual and cowling. Martin put a depo
sit down about a year ago.
The initial fitting of the cowling is already done. I have a spare fusela
ge that I use for fitting. Today, I'm going to be sanding and detailing
the surface. I've already noticed that the distance used in the joggle
at the forward end (where the upper cowling attaches) is about .030 to lo
w. The tooling will get some fine tuning. I'm taking a lot of pictures.
"Is the cost worth it?" Martin asked. Depends.
>From a maintenance stand point, yes. It's a LOT easier to R&R the new cow
ling than the old one.
>From a checking the oil point of view, no. Five cam-locks and a screw nee
d to be removed vs opening a door.
>From a speed point of view, likely. Jeff is showing a consistent 5 to 6
knots improvement at the same power settings.
>From a CHT point of view, probably. Jeff is showing a much improved temp
distribution and 15 degrees lower temps.
>From a fuel efficiency point of view, possibly. I've flown my plane next
to four different Tigers at the same speed and 2700 rpm. At the same spe
ed and roughly the same rpm (they flew 2700 rpm, mine varied), my fuel bur
n was anywhere between .5 gph and 3 gph less than the other plane. Is tha
t all the cowling? or something else? My plane doesn't have any junk han
ging off it like most planes. So, it's possible that the other planes are
just draggy anyway.
----- I flew alongside a very clean 75 Traveler. This Traveler would true
at about 135 knots under most conditions. At 132 knots true, my fuel flo
w was about 2 gph less. My fuel burn was 7.5 gph.
Plus, it's not just the cowling but all new baffles and baffle seals.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Garmin 430 background lighting |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the 430s (2 of
them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on and restarted the
other in the setup mode to see if I could affect the brightness. I could
affect it a little, but, really not enough to matter.
The unit needs a manual adjustment for brightness.
The unit needs a better design for replacing the battery in it also. I ha
d the battery replaced in one of them and the entire unit needs to be disa
ssembled and a new battery soldered in place. Really difficult to replace
.
Years ago, I replaced a battery in a Power Mac that looked exactly like th
e battery in the 430. I think the battery was 5 years old in that one too
. The battery was $12 and took 5 minutes to replace.
Garmin needs to hire Steve Jobs.
Question: Is there a simple, straight forward way to dim the 430 screen
at night?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "WILLIAM KELLY" <v1rotate(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin 430 background lighting |
I forget how I adjusted the brightness initially, but I found it too
bright day or night, so I leave a couple of layers of masking tape bits
over the electronic eye on the upper left. Not much for looks, but it
works. You might not think it would matter at night, but even the random
instrument panel light seems to affect the brightness of the 430 screen.
If I recall my past experiences correctly there does not seem to be any
one unit setting that works suitably for both day and night. Agreed, a
dimmer knob would be great.
Bill
I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the 430s (2
of them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on and restarted
the other in the setup mode to see if I could affect the brightness. I
could affect it a little, but, really not enough to matter.
The unit needs a manual adjustment for brightness.
The unit needs a better design for replacing the battery in it also.
I had the battery replaced in one of them and the entire unit needs to
be disassembled and a new battery soldered in place. Really difficult
to replace.
Years ago, I replaced a battery in a Power Mac that looked exactly
like the battery in the 430. I think the battery was 5 years old in
that one too. The battery was $12 and took 5 minutes to replace.
Garmin needs to hire Steve Jobs.
Question: Is there a simple, straight forward way to dim the 430
screen at night?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
I found something during this current installation that will require a cha
nge to the installation instructions.
a B&C starter won't fit. They are too big. SOOOOOO
Is there anyone out there in Team Grumman-land that wants a B&C starter?
Do you think there might be someone on the 'other' gang that wants one?
send them my way. I need to order the Sky-Tec.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: WILLIAM KELLY <v1rotate(at)verizon.net>
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 1:35 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Garmin 430 background lighting
I forget how I adjusted the brightness initially, but I found it too brigh
t day or night, so I leave a couple of layers of masking tape bits over th
e electronic eye on the upper left. Not much for looks, but it works. You
might not think it would matter at night, but even the random instrument
panel light seems to affect the brightness of the 430 screen. If I recal
l my past experiences correctly there does not seem to be any one unit set
ting that works suitably for both day and night. Agreed, a dimmer knob wou
ld be great.
Bill
I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the 430s (2
of them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on and restarted
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cowling update |
I didn't think that B&C starters were approved for installation on
certified AC. Only by individual FSDO approvals. Therefore you should
not expect to see very many of them.....
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 15, 2010, at 9:36 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
> I found something during this current installation that will require
> a change to the installation instructions.
>
> a B&C starter won't fit. They are too big. SOOOOOO
>
> Is there anyone out there in Team Grumman-land that wants a B&C
> starter?
>
> Do you think there might be someone on the 'other' gang that wants
> one? send them my way. I need to order the Sky-Tec.
>
> Gary
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WILLIAM KELLY <v1rotate(at)verizon.net>
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 1:35 pm
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Garmin 430 background lighting
>
> I forget how I adjusted the brightness initially, but I found it too
> bright day or night, so I leave a couple of layers of masking tape
> bits over the electronic eye on the upper left. Not much for looks,
> but it works. You might not think it would matter at night, but even
> the random instrument panel light seems to affect the brightness of
> the 430 screen. If I recall my past experiences correctly there
> does not seem to be any one unit setting that works suitably for
> both day and night. Agreed, a dimmer knob would be great.
>
> Bill
>
> I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the 430s
> (2 of them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on and
> restarted
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cowling update |
This would be the place to get it sold quickly
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=3
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 15, 2010, at 9:36 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
> I found something during this current installation that will require
> a change to the installation instructions.
>
> a B&C starter won't fit. They are too big. SOOOOOO
>
> Is there anyone out there in Team Grumman-land that wants a B&C
> starter?
>
> Do you think there might be someone on the 'other' gang that wants
> one? send them my way. I need to order the Sky-Tec.
>
> Gary
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WILLIAM KELLY <v1rotate(at)verizon.net>
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 1:35 pm
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Garmin 430 background lighting
>
> I forget how I adjusted the brightness initially, but I found it too
> bright day or night, so I leave a couple of layers of masking tape
> bits over the electronic eye on the upper left. Not much for looks,
> but it works. You might not think it would matter at night, but even
> the random instrument panel light seems to affect the brightness of
> the 430 screen. If I recall my past experiences correctly there
> does not seem to be any one unit setting that works suitably for
> both day and night. Agreed, a dimmer knob would be great.
>
> Bill
>
> I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the 430s
> (2 of them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on and
> restarted
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cowling update |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
i'll try it
-----Original Message-----
From: Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net>
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 9:04 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
This would be the place to get it sold quickly
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=3
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 15, 2010, at 9:36 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
I found something during this current installation that will require a cha
nge to the installation instructions.
a B&C starter won't fit. They are too big. SOOOOOO
Is there anyone out there in Team Grumman-land that wants a B&C starter?
Do you think there might be someone on the 'other' gang that wants one?
send them my way. I need to order the Sky-Tec.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: WILLIAM KELLY <v1rotate(at)verizon.net>
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 1:35 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Garmin 430 background lighting
I forget how I adjusted the brightness initially, but I found it too brigh
t day or night, so I leave a couple of layers of masking tape bits over th
e electronic eye on the upper left. Not much for looks, but it works. You
might not think it would matter at night, but even the random instrument
panel light seems to affect the brightness of the 430 screen. If I recal
l my past experiences correctly there does not seem to be any one unit set
ting that works suitably for both day and night. Agreed, a dimmer knob wou
ld be great.
Bill
I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the 430s (2
of them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on and restarted
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Kelsey" <Phil(at)ReliantAir.com> |
| Subject: | Garmin 430 background lighting |
There is a simple way to dim the GNS-430 no need to go to setup. While unit
is on turn to the AUX page. Turn right hand small knob clockwise until last
page comes up it's page 4. Select "Display" and press "ENT". Page
displays with "AUTO" highlighted. Turn small right hand knob and a drop
down list displays. Select "MANUAL" and press "ENT". MANUAL will now
display where AUTO displayed and the Level field will be highlighted.
Adjust backlighting level down by turning small right hand knob
counter-clockwise to dim and clockwise to brighten. In my Tiger the display
backlighting
is tied to the stock Grumman dimmer so that when I turn the dimmer up the
display on the 430 dims. If you need the know how to do this let me know.
P. J. Kelsey
ReliantAir
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of WILLIAM
KELLY
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Garmin 430 background lighting
I forget how I adjusted the brightness initially, but I found it too bright
day or night, so I leave a couple of layers of masking tape bits over the
electronic eye on the upper left. Not much for looks, but it works. You
might not think it would matter at night, but even the random instrument
panel light seems to affect the brightness of the 430 screen. If I recall
my past experiences correctly there does not seem to be any one unit setting
that works suitably for both day and night. Agreed, a dimmer knob would be
great.
Bill
I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the 430s (2 of
them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on and restarted the
other in the setup mode to see if I could affect the brightness. I could
affect it a little, but, really not enough to matter.
The unit needs a manual adjustment for brightness.
The unit needs a better design for replacing the battery in it also. I had
the battery replaced in one of them and the entire unit needs to be
disassembled and a new battery soldered in place. Really difficult to
replace.
Years ago, I replaced a battery in a Power Mac that looked exactly like the
battery in the 430. I think the battery was 5 years old in that one too.
The battery was $12 and took 5 minutes to replace.
Garmin needs to hire Steve Jobs.
Question: Is there a simple, straight forward way to dim the 430 screen at
night?
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.508)
Database version: 6.14140
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cowling update |
I think they were STC'd but I'm not sure about that.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Ned Thomas
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
I didn't think that B&C starters were approved for installation on
certified AC. Only by individual FSDO approvals. Therefore you should
not expect to see very many of them.....
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 15, 2010, at 9:36 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
I found something during this current installation that will require
a change to the installation instructions.
a B&C starter won't fit. They are too big. SOOOOOO
Is there anyone out there in Team Grumman-land that wants a B&C
starter?
Do you think there might be someone on the 'other' gang that wants
one? send them my way. I need to order the Sky-Tec.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: WILLIAM KELLY <v1rotate(at)verizon.net>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 1:35 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Garmin 430 background lighting
I forget how I adjusted the brightness initially, but I found it too
bright day or night, so I leave a couple of layers of masking tape bits
over the electronic eye on the upper left. Not much for looks, but it
works. You might not think it would matter at night, but even the random
instrument panel light seems to affect the brightness of the 430 screen.
If I recall my past experiences correctly there does not seem to be any
one unit setting that works suitably for both day and night. Agreed, a
dimmer knob would be great.
Bill
I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the
430s (2 of them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on and
restarted
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cowling update |
Go with the 149-NL Sky-Tec, is a much better starter than the 149-12LS.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Ned Thomas
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
This would be the place to get it sold quickly
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=3
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 15, 2010, at 9:36 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
I found something during this current installation that will require
a change to the installation instructions.
a B&C starter won't fit. They are too big. SOOOOOO
Is there anyone out there in Team Grumman-land that wants a B&C
starter?
Do you think there might be someone on the 'other' gang that wants
one? send them my way. I need to order the Sky-Tec.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: WILLIAM KELLY <v1rotate(at)verizon.net>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 1:35 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Garmin 430 background lighting
I forget how I adjusted the brightness initially, but I found it too
bright day or night, so I leave a couple of layers of masking tape bits
over the electronic eye on the upper left. Not much for looks, but it
works. You might not think it would matter at night, but even the random
instrument panel light seems to affect the brightness of the 430 screen.
If I recall my past experiences correctly there does not seem to be any
one unit setting that works suitably for both day and night. Agreed, a
dimmer knob would be great.
Bill
I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the
430s (2 of them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on and
restarted
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cowling update |
Cliff,
You're right. The starters are STCd and PMAd. I ws thinking of their
alternators which are fir experimentals only. So Gary you may see mire
of these starters
Her is a link to the starters
http://www.bandc.biz/lycomingstarter12v122ringgearteethstcpma.aspx
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 16, 2010, at 8:44 AM, "flyv35b" wrote:
> I think they were STC'd but I'm not sure about that.
>
> Cliff
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ned Thomas
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 8:59 PM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
>
> I didn't think that B&C starters were approved for installation on
> certified AC. Only by individual FSDO approvals. Therefore you
> should not expect to see very many of them.....
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 15, 2010, at 9:36 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>> I found something during this current installation that will
>> require a change to the installation instructions.
>>
>> a B&C starter won't fit. They are too big. SOOOOOO
>>
>> Is there anyone out there in Team Grumman-land that wants a B&C
>> starter?
>>
>> Do you think there might be someone on the 'other' gang that wants
>> one? send them my way. I need to order the Sky-Tec.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WILLIAM KELLY <v1rotate(at)verizon.net>
>> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>> Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 1:35 pm
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Garmin 430 background lighting
>>
>> I forget how I adjusted the brightness initially, but I found it
>> too bright day or night, so I leave a couple of layers of masking
>> tape bits over the electronic eye on the upper left. Not much for
>> looks, but it works. You might not think it would matter at night,
>> but even the random instrument panel light seems to affect the
>> brightness of the 430 screen. If I recall my past experiences
>> correctly there does not seem to be any one unit setting that works
>> suitably for both day and night. Agreed, a dimmer knob would be
>> great.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the 430s
>> (2 of them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on and
>> restarted
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cowling update |
Keep in mind that the NL is 1.15 lbs heavier right out on the nose of
the plane. Not good for those of us the like to maximize speed
I've had excellent performance from the PM starters
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 16, 2010, at 8:46 AM, "flyv35b" wrote:
> Go with the 149-NL Sky-Tec, is a much better starter than the
> 149-12LS.
>
> Cliff.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cowling update |
I would gladly sacrifice the extra weight for the better quality based
on what I have seen concerning problems with customers starters.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Ned Thomas
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
Keep in mind that the NL is 1.15 lbs heavier right out on the nose of
the plane. Not good for those of us the like to maximize speed
I've had excellent performance from the PM starters
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 16, 2010, at 8:46 AM, "flyv35b" wrote:
Go with the 149-NL Sky-Tec, is a much better starter than the
149-12LS.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cowling update |
Actually I have a 20 amp STC'd standby B&C alternator on my Bonanza.
It's a beautiful installation with it's own ACU and over amperage
warning light.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Ned Thomas
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
Cliff,
You're right. The starters are STCd and PMAd. I ws thinking of their
alternators which are fir experimentals only. So Gary you may see mire
of these starters
Her is a link to the starters
http://www.bandc.biz/lycomingstarter12v122ringgearteethstcpma.aspx
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 16, 2010, at 8:44 AM, "flyv35b" wrote:
I think they were STC'd but I'm not sure about that.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Ned Thomas
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
I didn't think that B&C starters were approved for installation on
certified AC. Only by individual FSDO approvals. Therefore you should
not expect to see very many of them.....
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 15, 2010, at 9:36 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
I found something during this current installation that will
require a change to the installation instructions.
a B&C starter won't fit. They are too big. SOOOOOO
Is there anyone out there in Team Grumman-land that wants a B&C
starter?
Do you think there might be someone on the 'other' gang that
wants one? send them my way. I need to order the Sky-Tec.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: WILLIAM KELLY <v1rotate(at)verizon.net>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 1:35 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Garmin 430 background lighting
I forget how I adjusted the brightness initially, but I found it
too bright day or night, so I leave a couple of layers of masking tape
bits over the electronic eye on the upper left. Not much for looks, but
it works. You might not think it would matter at night, but even the
random instrument panel light seems to affect the brightness of the 430
screen. If I recall my past experiences correctly there does not seem
to be any one unit setting that works suitably for both day and night.
Agreed, a dimmer knob would be great.
Bill
I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the
430s (2 of them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on and
restarted
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cowling update |
I own quite a few things from BandC and also Bob Knuckols. The quality
is outstanding.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 16, 2010, at 11:09 AM, "flyv35b" wrote:
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cowling update |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
Ned, I'd have to sign up to post the starter for sale. I really have no
interest in joining another group. If you want to post on the RV list fo
r me, that would be great. Just give them my cell number. Phone number.
Not the number of my cell.
-----Original Message-----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 10:55 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
i'll try it
-----Original Message-----
From: Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net>
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 9:04 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
This would be the place to get it sold quickly
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=3
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 15, 2010, at 9:36 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
I found something during this current installation that will require a cha
nge to the installation instructions.
a B&C starter won't fit. They are too big. SOOOOOO
Is there anyone out there in Team Grumman-land that wants a B&C starter?
Do you think there might be someone on the 'other' gang that wants one?
send them my way. I need to order the Sky-Tec.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: WILLIAM KELLY <v1rotate(at)verizon.net>
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 1:35 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Garmin 430 background lighting
I forget how I adjusted the brightness initially, but I found it too brigh
t day or night, so I leave a couple of layers of masking tape bits over th
e electronic eye on the upper left. Not much for looks, but it works. You
might not think it would matter at night, but even the random instrument
panel light seems to affect the brightness of the 430 screen. If I recal
l my past experiences correctly there does not seem to be any one unit set
ting that works suitably for both day and night. Agreed, a dimmer knob wou
ld be great.
Bill
I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the 430s (2
of them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on and restarted
========================
===========
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
========================
===========
ttp://forums.matronics.com
========================
===========
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Garmin 430 background lighting |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
I have heard that there is a way to control dimming with the panel lightin
g. I'll look into that. When I had this wired up 6 years ago, I told the
m, 'No bells and whistles. Just make it look nice.' Obviously, I don't
do a lot of night flying.
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Kelsey <Phil(at)ReliantAir.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 16, 2010 6:34 am
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Garmin 430 background lighting
There is a simple way to dim the GNS-430 no need to go tosetup. While uni
t is on turn to the AUX page. Turn right hand smallknob clockwise until
last page comes up it=99s page 4. Select =9CDisplay=9D
and press =9CENT=9D. Page displays with =9CAUTO
=9Dhighlighted. Turn small right hand knob and a drop down listdisplays.
Select =9CMANUAL=9D and press =9CENT=9D. MANUAL
will now display where AUTO displayed and the Level field will behighligh
ted. Adjust backlighting level down by turning small righthand knob cou
nter-clockwise to dim and clockwise to brighten. In myTiger the display
backlighting
is tied to the stock Grumman dimmer so that when I turnthe dimmer up the
display on the 430 dims. If you need the know how to dothis let me know.
P. J.Kelsey
ReliantAir
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com[mailto:owner-teamgrumman
-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of WILLIAMKELLY
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Garmin 430 background lighting
Iforget how I adjusted the brightness initially, but I found it too bright
dayor night, so I leave a couple of layers of masking tape bits over thee
lectronic eye on the upper left. Not much for looks, but it works. You mig
htnot think it would matter at night, but even the random instrument panel
lightseems to affect the brightness of the 430 screen. If I recall my pa
stexperiences correctly there does not seem to be any one unit setting tha
tworks suitably for both day and night. Agreed, a dimmer knob would begrea
t.
Bill
I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the430s (2 of
them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on andrestarted the
other in the setup mode to see if I could affect the brightness. I could
affect it a little, but, really not enough to matter.
The unit needs a manualadjustment for brightness.
The unit needs a better design for replacing the battery in italso. I had
the battery replaced in one of them and the entire unit needsto be disass
embled and a new battery soldered in place. Really difficultto replace.
Years ago, I replaced a battery in a Power Mac that looked exactlylike the
battery in the 430. I think the battery was 5 years old in thatone too.
The battery was $12 and took 5 minutes to replace.
Garmin needs to hire Steve Jobs.
Question: Is there asimple, straight forward way to dim the 430 screen at
night?
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
E-mail message checkedby Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.508)
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========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cowling update |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
I have the 149-12NL in my plane. I know that one fits.
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 16, 2010 6:46 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
Go with the 149-NL Sky-Tec, is a much better starter than the 149-12LS.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Ned Thomas
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
This would be the place to get it sold quickly
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=3
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 15, 2010, at 9:36 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
I found something during this current installation that will require
a change to the installation instructions.
a B&C starter won't fit. They are too big. SOOOOOO
Is there anyone out there in Team Grumman-land that wants a B&C starte
r?
Do you think there might be someone on the 'other' gang that wants one?
send them my way. I need to order the Sky-Tec.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: WILLIAM KELLY <v1rotate(at)verizon.net>
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 1:35 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Garmin 430 background lighting
I forget how I adjusted the brightness initially, but I found it too
bright day or night, so I leave a couple of layers of masking tape bi
ts over the electronic eye on the upper left. Not much for looks, but
it works. You might not think it would matter at night, but even the
random instrument panel light seems to affect the brightness of the
430 screen. If I recall my past experiences correctly there does not
seem to be any one unit setting that works suitably for both day and
night. Agreed, a dimmer knob would be great.
Bill
I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the 430s
(2 of them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on and re
started
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <allenc3(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cowling update |
Just post it on Barnstormers. It is free and a B&C starter will sell in
a New York Minute.....
Claude
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
Ned, I'd have to sign up to post the starter for sale. I really have no
interest in joining another group. If you want to post on the RV list
for me, that would be great. Just give them my cell number. Phone
number. Not the number of my cell.
-----Original Message-----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 10:55 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
i'll try it
-----Original Message-----
From: Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net>
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 9:04 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
This would be the place to get it sold quickly
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=3
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 15, 2010, at 9:36 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
I found something during this current installation that will require a
change to the installation instructions.
a B&C starter won't fit. They are too big. SOOOOOO
Is there anyone out there in Team Grumman-land that wants a B&C
starter?
Do you think there might be someone on the 'other' gang that wants
one? send them my way. I need to order the Sky-Tec.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: WILLIAM KELLY <v1rotate(at)verizon.net>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 1:35 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Garmin 430 background lighting
I forget how I adjusted the brightness initially, but I found it too
bright day or night, so I leave a couple of layers of masking tape bits
over the electronic eye on the upper left. Not much for looks, but it
works. You might not think it would matter at night, but even the random
instrument panel light seems to affect the brightness of the 430 screen.
If I recall my past experiences correctly there does not seem to be any
one unit setting that works suitably for both day and night. Agreed, a
dimmer knob would be great.
Bill
I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the 430s
(2 of them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on and
restarted
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
ttp://forums.matronics.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
ttp://forums.matronics.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "923te" <923te(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cowling update |
How much are you asking? It would be good to post with a price.
And confirm the telephone number or would you just as soon have your
this email address posted?
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
Ned, I'd have to sign up to post the starter for sale. I really have
no interest in joining another group. If you want to post on the RV
list for me, that would be great. Just give them my cell number. Phone
number. Not the number of my cell.
-----Original Message-----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 10:55 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
i'll try it
-----Original Message-----
From: Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 9:04 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
This would be the place to get it sold quickly
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=3
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 15, 2010, at 9:36 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
I found something during this current installation that will require
a change to the installation instructions.
a B&C starter won't fit. They are too big. SOOOOOO
Is there anyone out there in Team Grumman-land that wants a B&C
starter?
Do you think there might be someone on the 'other' gang that wants
one? send them my way. I need to order the Sky-Tec.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: WILLIAM KELLY <v1rotate(at)verizon.net>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 1:35 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Garmin 430 background lighting
I forget how I adjusted the brightness initially, but I found it too
bright day or night, so I leave a couple of layers of masking tape bits
over the electronic eye on the upper left. Not much for looks, but it
works. You might not think it would matter at night, but even the random
instrument panel light seems to affect the brightness of the 430 screen.
If I recall my past experiences correctly there does not seem to be any
one unit setting that works suitably for both day and night. Agreed, a
dimmer knob would be great.
Bill
I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the
430s (2 of them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on and
restarted
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
ttp://forums.matronics.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
ttp://forums.matronics.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cowling update |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
Ned,
According to the log books, the starter has about 400 hours on it in 2 1/2
years. The guy puts a lot of hours on his plane. It isn't on the ground
much.
>From the looks of the B&C website, the starter costs $580. Half of that
is $290. Let's say $250. It looks new. Ned, I think you should buy it
for your project. $250 including shipping.
You have my number.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>
Sent: Sun, Jan 17, 2010 8:27 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
How much are you asking? It would be good to post with a price.
And confirm the telephone number or would you just as soon have your this
email address posted?
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
Ned, I'd have to sign up to post the starter for sale. I really have no
interest in joining another group. If you want to post on the RV list
for me, that would be great. Just give them my cell number. Phone num
ber. Not the number of my cell.
-----Original Message-----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 10:55 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
i'll try it
-----Original Message-----
From: Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net>
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 9:04 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
This would be the place to get it sold quickly
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=3
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 15, 2010, at 9:36 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
I found something during this current installation that will require
a change to the installation instructions.
a B&C starter won't fit. They are too big. SOOOOOO
Is there anyone out there in Team Grumman-land that wants a B&C starte
r?
Do you think there might be someone on the 'other' gang that wants one?
send them my way. I need to order the Sky-Tec.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: WILLIAM KELLY <v1rotate(at)verizon.net>
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 1:35 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Garmin 430 background lighting
I forget how I adjusted the brightness initially, but I found it too
bright day or night, so I leave a couple of layers of masking tape bi
ts over the electronic eye on the upper left. Not much for looks, but
it works. You might not think it would matter at night, but even the
random instrument panel light seems to affect the brightness of the
430 screen. If I recall my past experiences correctly there does not
seem to be any one unit setting that works suitably for both day and
night. Agreed, a dimmer knob would be great.
Bill
I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the 430s
(2 of them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on and re
started
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cowling update |
Thanks Gary but I already have a new starter on the 540
I placed the ad on Vans
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 17, 2010, at 1:29 PM, teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM wrote:
> Ned,
>
> According to the log books, the starter has about 400 hours on it in
> 2 1/2 years. The guy puts a lot of hours on his plane. It isn't on
> the ground much.
>
> From the looks of the B&C website, the starter costs $580. Half of
> that is $290. Let's say $250. It looks new. Ned, I think you
> should buy it for your project. $250 including shipping.
>
> You have my number.
> Gary
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Sun, Jan 17, 2010 8:27 am
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
>
> How much are you asking? It would be good to post with a price.
>
> And confirm the telephone number or would you just as soon have your
> this email address posted?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 10:39 PM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
>
> Ned, I'd have to sign up to post the starter for sale. I really
> have no interest in joining another group. If you want to post on
> the RV list for me, that would be great. Just give them my cell
> number. Phone number. Not the number of my cell.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 10:55 pm
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
>
> i'll try it
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net>
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 9:04 pm
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling update
>
> This would be the place to get it sold quickly
>
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=3
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 15, 2010, at 9:36 PM, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>> I found something during this current installation that will
>> require a change to the installation instructions.
>>
>> a B&C starter won't fit. They are too big. SOOOOOO
>>
>> Is there anyone out there in Team Grumman-land that wants a B&C
>> starter?
>>
>> Do you think there might be someone on the 'other' gang that wants
>> one? send them my way. I need to order the Sky-Tec.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WILLIAM KELLY <v1rotate(at)verizon.net>
>> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>> Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 1:35 pm
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Garmin 430 background lighting
>>
>> I forget how I adjusted the brightness initially, but I found it
>> too bright day or night, so I leave a couple of layers of masking
>> tape bits over the electronic eye on the upper left. Not much for
>> looks, but it works. You might not think it would matter at night,
>> but even the random instrument panel light seems to affect the
>> brightness of the 430 screen. If I recall my past experiences
>> correctly there does not seem to be any one unit setting that works
>> suitably for both day and night. Agreed, a dimmer knob would be
>> great.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> I did a long night flight last night and the brightness of the 430s
>> (2 of them) was overwhelming in the darkness. I left one on and
>> restarted
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
> ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
> ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> ===================================
> ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ===================================
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
I sold the B&C Starter. I should have asked for more. [smile]
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fwd: Skywagon recovery in Alaska |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
VERY interesting. Don't try this at home.
This is the real world repairs politely called battlefield maintenance. Ce
rtainly a unique story of maintenance in the wilderness.
Blue Skies, Charlie
http://www.optimaljet.com/OptimalJetHTML/mulchatnaHigh.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Skywagon recovery in Alaska |
Loved the wood spars and rigging. The self tapping screws probably
weren't any more draggy than a rivet head!!!
Linn
\teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
> VERY interesting. Don't try this at home.
>
> This is the real world repairs politely called battlefield maintenance.
> Certainly a unique story of maintenance in the wilderness.
> Blue Skies, Charlie
>
> http://www.optimaljet.com/OptimalJetHTML/mulchatnaHigh.htm
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Skywagon recovery in Alaska |
Drag is the least of their concern. It's all about adequate structural
strength AND aerodynamics/controllability. Notice how much time and care
they took to get the washout of the wingtip right so that the aileron and
lift of the tip would work close to the way it was designed? These guys are
professionals and probably A&P mechanics and know exactly what they can get
away with and what they are doing. They also are very ingenious. Even so
they didn't know if the plan would fly OK until it lifted off and then if it
didn't it would be to late and another accident would happen. The owner, an
experienced bush pilot, took the chance. Notice that he lifted the LH float
and damaged wing first to see if it had enough lift even though it turned
the plane the wrong way towards the bank. The plane was even flown 175
miles back to Anchorage instead of just to the nearest suitable airport!
Cliff A&P/IA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Linn Walters" <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Fwd: Skywagon recovery in Alaska
>
>
> Loved the wood spars and rigging. The self tapping screws probably
> weren't any more draggy than a rivet head!!!
> Linn
>
> \teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
>> VERY interesting. Don't try this at home.
>>
>> This is the real world repairs politely called battlefield maintenance.
>> Certainly a unique story of maintenance in the wilderness.
>> Blue Skies, Charlie
>>
>> http://www.optimaljet.com/OptimalJetHTML/mulchatnaHigh.htm
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
Ya know, some companies are a real pleasure to work with. These companies
don't ask questions when there is a problem. LightSpeed for example. Bo
se. But, then there are companies that take each and every problem as a
personal affront and make it so impossible to work with that sometimes I
have to wonder how they stay in business.
A couple of years ago, I attempted to install a PP alternator on a 2004 AG
5B. The pulley was misaligned by about 1/8 inch. This was my first insta
ll of a PP alternator and figured that something must be wrong on my end.
When I called PP and gave them the serial number, I was told that I had
an alternator when had been manufactured prior to a redesign of the space
r and that I needed the new spacer. No, the part number wasn't changed be
cause it was a minor change. OK. Send me the spacer. I have an airplane
-on-the-ground. So, they agreed to replace the spacer at my expense.
Since then, I have done 9 installs of PP alternators; 3 of which have a pe
rsistent whine in them. Running extra grounds and cleaning up terminal en
ds have not helped. Oddly, removing and replacing one of the alternators
made the noise go away. This was on a plane on which I had NOT installed
an extra ground or cleaned up the terminal ends. I removed the alternato
r to fix a problem with the baffle.
OK, so, last year, I ordered a new PP alternator for a Cheetah I was resto
ring and decided to order an extra one for 'bench stock' just in case some
one needed one. Well, wouldn't ya know it, about a year later, a few days
ago, I needed to use that alternator. Come to fine out, this one too has
either the wrong spacers or wrong pulley or both. At any rate, it wouldn
't fit; the pulley's are misaligned by 1/4 inch or more. So I called PP.
I talked to a really nice man who helped what he could and he passed me to
another guy who basically said I was installing it wrong. When I told hi
m I had installed several without any problem he told me, "we've changed
the design (without changing the part number) so the alternator sat furth
er forward to clear the baffle." I said, "Well, I must have one that wasn
't updated so I need to send it back so I can have one that will fit." Th
en, I was told to take pictures of the alternator so they can determine if
I was doing anything wrong. I said, "If I give you the part number and
serial number won't you be able to tell if there is a problem with the pu
lley?" No. Apparently not. I was told they NOTHING leaves PP without be
ing checked for accuracy and it probably has the parts it was supposed to
be shipped with. Then I was told to get all the part numbers for the bra
ckets, spacers, and pulley. I said, "Can't I just send it back and you ca
n fix it so I have an alternator to use incase someone needs one?" Well,
no.
I was not issued an RMA (returned merchandise authorization) because I did
n't have the serial number handy.
I'm on my way to the airport to get the serial number, take pictures, and
write down part numbers.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "923te" <923te(at)att.net> |
I too had a misalignment issue when I installed the plane-power
alternator on my 2002 AG5B Tiger. Steve, I think was his name, flew up
on a Saturday morning in his twin and brought parts to fix it. He
mentioned mine was amongst the first batch for the AG5B's and he wanted
to make sure they were right. Turned out that the bracket that I had
that was on my factory alternator, the bracket that attaches to the
case, was drilled wrong. He was stumped at why it didn't align and I
thought to mention that I had never actually checked to see if it was in
alignment prior to my removing the original alternator. Well it wasn't.
The Lycoming part numbered bracket was mis-drilled and that made both
the old and the new plane power have misalignment.
Sorry to hear they are not supporting you very well. Its too small a
community for that....
Are you talking to the owner?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
I went to the airport and got the serial number and I sent it back with an
RMA. Another $20.00
We'll see. When I called the second time they seemed a lot more helpful.
I hope this settles it.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>
Sent: Fri, Jan 22, 2010 6:22 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Plane Power
I too had a misalignment issue when I installed the plane-power alternator
on my 2002 AG5B Tiger. Steve, I think was his name, flew up on a Saturday
morning in his twin and brought parts to fix it. He mentioned mine was am
ongst the first batch for the AG5B's and he wanted to make sure they were
right. Turned out that the bracket that I had that was on my factory alte
rnator, the bracket that attaches to the case, was drilled wrong. He was
stumped at why it didn't align and I thought to mention that I had never
actually checked to see if it was in alignment prior to my removing the
original alternator. Well it wasn't. The Lycoming part numbered bracket
was mis-drilled and that made both the old and the new plane power have
misalignment.
Sorry to hear they are not supporting you very well. Its too small a commu
nity for that....
Are you talking to the owner?
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
Ned, are you sure it was misdialed or just installed wrong. It can be
put on two ways, but as I recall the wrong way is so far off that it is
obvious it is wrong.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: 923te
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Plane Power
I too had a misalignment issue when I installed the plane-power
alternator on my 2002 AG5B Tiger. Steve, I think was his name, flew up
on a Saturday morning in his twin and brought parts to fix it. He
mentioned mine was amongst the first batch for the AG5B's and he wanted
to make sure they were right. Turned out that the bracket that I had
that was on my factory alternator, the bracket that attaches to the
case, was drilled wrong. He was stumped at why it didn't align and I
thought to mention that I had never actually checked to see if it was in
alignment prior to my removing the original alternator. Well it wasn't.
The Lycoming part numbered bracket was mis-drilled and that made both
the old and the new plane power have misalignment.
Sorry to hear they are not supporting you very well. Its too small a
community for that....
Are you talking to the owner?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Mutzman <rcmutz(at)msn.com> |
I was talking to my A&P the other day about PP regulator and he told me the
y were made in China. I wonder if the PP alternators are made in China as
well. Anyone know?
Richard
N399RM
_________________________________________________________________
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
Should have said "misdrilled" and not "misdialed". Hit the spell
checker at the wrong time.
----- Original Message -----
From: flyv35b
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Plane Power
Ned, are you sure it was misdialed or just installed wrong. It can be
put on two ways, but as I recall the wrong way is so far off that it is
obvious it is wrong.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: 923te
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Plane Power
I too had a misalignment issue when I installed the plane-power
alternator on my 2002 AG5B Tiger. Steve, I think was his name, flew up
on a Saturday morning in his twin and brought parts to fix it. He
mentioned mine was amongst the first batch for the AG5B's and he wanted
to make sure they were right. Turned out that the bracket that I had
that was on my factory alternator, the bracket that attaches to the
case, was drilled wrong. He was stumped at why it didn't align and I
thought to mention that I had never actually checked to see if it was in
alignment prior to my removing the original alternator. Well it wasn't.
The Lycoming part numbered bracket was mis-drilled and that made both
the old and the new plane power have misalignment.
Sorry to hear they are not supporting you very well. Its too small a
community for that....
Are you talking to the owner?
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
It sounds like several people have had problems with spacers and pulley
alignment (who knows how many actually). On the first one I installed
on a Tiger the field terminal was nearly touching the front baffle. I
didn't see why they couldn't have designed the pulley a bit different
and moved the alternator forward even a half inch for better clearance
and easier access to the terminal. For that matter the whole front
baffle design on the Tiger and Cheetah suck! By making a baffle up over
the top of the case and sealing to the nose bowl you could eliminate the
lower front baffle and then you would have access to the alternator from
behind WITHOUT taking off the nose bowl. In fact you might be able to
check the wires on the alternator just by looking in with the top
cowling open!
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 5:18 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Plane Power
Ya know, some companies are a real pleasure to work with. These
companies don't ask questions when there is a problem. LightSpeed for
example. Bose. But, then there are companies that take each and every
problem as a personal affront and make it so impossible to work with
that sometimes I have to wonder how they stay in business.
A couple of years ago, I attempted to install a PP alternator on a
2004 AG5B. The pulley was misaligned by about 1/8 inch. This was my
first install of a PP alternator and figured that something must be
wrong on my end. When I called PP and gave them the serial number, I
was told that I had an alternator when had been manufactured prior to a
redesign of the spacer and that I needed the new spacer. No, the part
number wasn't changed because it was a minor change. OK. Send me the
spacer. I have an airplane-on-the-ground. So, they agreed to replace
the spacer at my expense.
Since then, I have done 9 installs of PP alternators; 3 of which have
a persistent whine in them. Running extra grounds and cleaning up
terminal ends have not helped. Oddly, removing and replacing one of the
alternators made the noise go away. This was on a plane on which I had
NOT installed an extra ground or cleaned up the terminal ends. I
removed the alternator to fix a problem with the baffle.
OK, so, last year, I ordered a new PP alternator for a Cheetah I was
restoring and decided to order an extra one for 'bench stock' just in
case someone needed one. Well, wouldn't ya know it, about a year later,
a few days ago, I needed to use that alternator. Come to fine out, this
one too has either the wrong spacers or wrong pulley or both. At any
rate, it wouldn't fit; the pulley's are misaligned by 1/4 inch or more.
So I called PP.
I talked to a really nice man who helped what he could and he passed
me to another guy who basically said I was installing it wrong. When I
told him I had installed several without any problem he told me, "we've
changed the design (without changing the part number) so the alternator
sat further forward to clear the baffle." I said, "Well, I must have
one that wasn't updated so I need to send it back so I can have one that
will fit." Then, I was told to take pictures of the alternator so they
can determine if I was doing anything wrong. I said, "If I give you the
part number and serial number won't you be able to tell if there is a
problem with the pulley?" No. Apparently not. I was told they NOTHING
leaves PP without being checked for accuracy and it probably has the
parts it was supposed to be shipped with. Then I was told to get all
the part numbers for the brackets, spacers, and pulley. I said, "Can't
I just send it back and you can fix it so I have an alternator to use
incase someone needs one?" Well, no.
I was not issued an RMA (returned merchandise authorization) because I
didn't have the serial number handy.
I'm on my way to the airport to get the serial number, take pictures,
and write down part numbers.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net> |
I agree Cliff. One of the advantages of Gary's new cowling is that it
does what your saying.
Can't wait until I get one on my Tiger!
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
>
> For that matter the whole front baffle design on the Tiger and
> Cheetah suck! By making a baffle up over the top of the case and
> sealing to the nose bowl you could eliminate the lower front baffle
> and then you would have access to the alternator from behind WITHOUT
> taking off the nose bowl. In fact you might be able to check the
> wires on the alternator just by looking in with the top cowling open!
>
> Cliffy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net> |
The iPhone makes what it thinks are corections.
This feature can be turned off but the keypad is so small that I often
hit the wrong letters. When I hit the wrong letters the iPhone fixes
it. Sometimes it fixes what it shouldn't and I don't catch it. Dory
bout that
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 23, 2010, at 8:51 AM, "flyv35b" wrote:
> Should have said "misdrilled" and not "misdialed". Hit the spell
> checker at the wrong time.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: flyv35b
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 6:13 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Plane Power
>
> Ned, are you sure it was misdialed or just installed wrong. It can
> be put on two ways, but as I recall the wrong way is so far off that
> it is obvious it is wrong.
>
> Cliff
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 923te
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 6:22 PM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Plane Power
>
> I too had a misalignment issue when I installed the plane-power
> alternator on my 2002 AG5B Tiger. Steve, I think was his name, flew
> up on a Saturday morning in his twin and brought parts to fix it. He
> mentioned mine was amongst the first batch for the AG5B's and he
> wanted to make sure they were right. Turned out that the bracket
> that I had that was on my factory alternator, the bracket that
> attaches to the case, was drilled wrong. He was stumped at why it
> didn't align and I thought to mention that I had never actually
> checked to see if it was in alignment prior to my removing the
> original alternator. Well it wasn't. The Lycoming part numbered
> bracket was mis-drilled and that made both the old and the new plane
> power have misalignment.
>
> Sorry to hear they are not supporting you very well. Its too small a
> community for that....
>
> Are you talking to the owner?
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net> |
Should've been
Sorry about that
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 23, 2010, at 11:16 AM, Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net> wrote:
> The iPhone makes what it thinks are corections.
>
> This feature can be turned off but the keypad is so small that I
> often hit the wrong letters. When I hit the wrong letters the iPhone
> fixes it. Sometimes it fixes what it shouldn't and I don't catch it.
> Dory bout that
> Ned
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 23, 2010, at 8:51 AM, "flyv35b" wrote:
>
>> Should have said "misdrilled" and not "misdialed". Hit the spell
>> checker at the wrong time.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: flyv35b
>> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 6:13 AM
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Plane Power
>>
>> Ned, are you sure it was misdialed or just installed wrong. It can
>> be put on two ways, but as I recall the wrong way is so far off
>> that it is obvious it is wrong.
>>
>> Cliff
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: 923te
>> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>> Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 6:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Plane Power
>>
>> I too had a misalignment issue when I installed the plane-power
>> alternator on my 2002 AG5B Tiger. Steve, I think was his name, flew
>> up on a Saturday morning in his twin and brought parts to fix it.
>> He mentioned mine was amongst the first batch for the AG5B's and he
>> wanted to make sure they were right. Turned out that the bracket
>> that I had that was on my factory alternator, the bracket that
>> attaches to the case, was drilled wrong. He was stumped at why it
>> didn't align and I thought to mention that I had never actually
>> checked to see if it was in alignment prior to my removing the
>> original alternator. Well it wasn't. The Lycoming part numbered
>> bracket was mis-drilled and that made both the old and the new
>> plane power have misalignment.
>>
>> Sorry to hear they are not supporting you very well. Its too small
>> a community for that....
>>
>> Are you talking to the owner?
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
Hi Cliff, and Teammates,
The new PP alternators do have a shallower pulley and different spacers.
They did move the alternator forward to address the problem. HOWEVER, th
ey kept the same part numbers on the alternators so there is NO WAY OF KNO
WING WHICH IS RIGHT!
As for the baffle trick, that's how the baffles work on my Jaguar Cowling.
I had to do climb cooling tests with probes on the alternator. The alte
rnator with the stock cowling runs roughly ambient. I have a blast tube
from the cabin heat inlet to the alternator and the alternator runs about
100 degrees under most conditions. There is very little temperature chan
ge. I thought about running an alternator with the cooling shroud and 1"
hose blowing air, but, the FAA seemed happy with the tests. By-the-way,
my alternator, a Kelly rebuilt, has been on my plane for 5 years and no
problems.
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 23, 2010 7:49 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Plane Power
It sounds like several people have had problems with spacers and pulley al
ignment (who knows how many actually). On the first one I installed on a
Tiger the field terminal was nearly touching the front baffle. I didn't
see why they couldn't have designed the pulley a bit different and moved
the alternator forward even a half inch for better clearance and easier
access to the terminal. For that matter the whole front baffle design on
the Tiger and Cheetah suck! By making a baffle up over the top of the ca
se and sealing to the nose bowl you could eliminate the lower front baffle
and then you would have access to the alternator from behind WITHOUT taki
ng off the nose bowl. In fact you might be able to check the wires on the
alternator just by looking in with the top cowling open!
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 5:18 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Plane Power
Ya know, some companies are a real pleasure to work with. These compani
es don't ask questions when there is a problem. LightSpeed for example.
Bose. But, then there are companies that take each and every problem
as a personal affront and make it so impossible to work with that somet
imes I have to wonder how they stay in business.
A couple of years ago, I attempted to install a PP alternator on a 2004
AG5B. The pulley was misaligned by about 1/8 inch. This was my first
install of a PP alternator and figured that something must be wrong on
my end. When I called PP and gave them the serial number, I was told
that I had an alternator when had been manufactured prior to a redesign
of the spacer and that I needed the new spacer. No, the part number wa
sn't changed because it was a minor change. OK. Send me the spacer.
I have an airplane-on-the-ground. So, they agreed to replace the spa
cer at my expense.
Since then, I have done 9 installs of PP alternators; 3 of which have a
persistent whine in them. Running extra grounds and cleaning up termina
l ends have not helped. Oddly, removing and replacing one of the alte
rnators made the noise go away. This was on a plane on which I had NOT
installed an extra ground or cleaned up the terminal ends. I removed
the alternator to fix a problem with the baffle.
OK, so, last year, I ordered a new PP alternator for a Cheetah I was res
toring and decided to order an extra one for 'bench stock' just in case
someone needed one. Well, wouldn't ya know it, about a year later, a fe
w days ago, I needed to use that alternator. Come to fine out, this one
too has either the wrong spacers or wrong pulley or both. At any rate,
it wouldn't fit; the pulley's are misaligned by 1/4 inch or more. So
I called PP.
I talked to a really nice man who helped what he could and he passed me
to another guy who basically said I was installing it wrong. When I tol
d him I had installed several without any problem he told me, "we've cha
nged the design (without changing the part number) so the alternator sat
further forward to clear the baffle." I said, "Well, I must have one
that wasn't updated so I need to send it back so I can have one that wi
ll fit." Then, I was told to take pictures of the alternator so they ca
n determine if I was doing anything wrong. I said, "If I give you the
part number and serial number won't you be able to tell if there is a
problem with the pulley?" No. Apparently not. I was told they NOTHIN
G leaves PP without being checked for accuracy and it probably has the
parts it was supposed to be shipped with. Then I was told to get all
the part numbers for the brackets, spacers, and pulley. I said, "Can't
I just send it back and you can fix it so I have an alternator to use
incase someone needs one?" Well, no.
I was not issued an RMA (returned merchandise authorization) because I
didn't have the serial number handy.
I'm on my way to the airport to get the serial number, take pictures, and
write down part numbers.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
========================
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
Ned, is the check in the mail?
-----Original Message-----
From: Ned Thomas <923te(at)att.net>
Sent: Sat, Jan 23, 2010 9:13 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Plane Power
I agree Cliff. One of the advantages of Gary's new cowling is that it does
what your saying.
Can't wait until I get one on my Tiger!
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
For that matter the whole front baffle design on the Tiger and Cheetah
suck! By making a baffle up over the top of the case and sealing to the
nose bowl you could eliminate the lower front baffle and then you would
have access to the alternator from behind WITHOUT taking off the nose bow
l. In fact you might be able to check the wires on the alternator just by
looking in with the top cowling open!
Cliffy
========================
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========================
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
The new PP alternators do have a shallower pulley and different spacers.
They did move the alternator forward to address the problem. HOWEVER,
they kept the same part numbers on the alternators so there is NO WAY OF
KNOWING WHICH IS RIGHT!
Well, that was a mistake. I'm surprised the FAA let them get away with
that sort of thing, beings it's PMA's and all. They probably didn't
tell the FAA, just changed their drawings because it was the easy way
out!
Cliff
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Baffles for the Jaguar cowling. |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
I drove over to Fremont yesterday and picked up the baffles. I needed one
set for Martin's plane, one set for Brian's plane, and one set for Ned's
plane.
The cost for one set, 13 pieces, was $1600.00. The cost for 5 sets was $3
000.00. The cost for 10 sets was $5,000.00. Yikes. $500.00 a set. Anyw
ay, I have them now and they are beautiful. They come with the part numbe
r stamped in them. The fabricator brushed and alodined them too. They ar
e very nice.
Van's sells a complete baffle set for $275.00. They aren't finished at al
l, just punched out and bent. He has to be either making a shit-load of
them or doing them in-house.
I suppose one could fabricate their own baffles from Van's kits but, I can
tell you from experience, it will take about 20 hours.
Now, I need to mock up a set and see how close they are.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Baffles for the Jaguar cowling. |
I bought a set of Van's baffles 3 years ago when I installed the O-320
engine in my Lynx for $200. I think it took me over 40 hrs to install
them with 75% of the time on the front baffles and the one over the top
of the engine which seal to the nose bowl. The ramps on the front
baffles had to be bent in 3 places and much trimming and riveting on
some extra gussets to make them fit the Grumman nose bowl. I must have
had the nose bowl and cowling on and off at least 20 times or more! The
end result was excellent cooling and baffling that is much better than
anything Grumman ever built. I guess if I took them off, made drawings
and duplicated them you could do it in far less time.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 1:28 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Baffles for the Jaguar cowling.
I drove over to Fremont yesterday and picked up the baffles. I needed
one set for Martin's plane, one set for Brian's plane, and one set for
Ned's plane.
The cost for one set, 13 pieces, was $1600.00. The cost for 5 sets
was $3000.00. The cost for 10 sets was $5,000.00. Yikes. $500.00 a
set. Anyway, I have them now and they are beautiful. They come with
the part number stamped in them. The fabricator brushed and alodined
them too. They are very nice.
Van's sells a complete baffle set for $275.00. They aren't finished
at all, just punched out and bent. He has to be either making a
shit-load of them or doing them in-house.
I suppose one could fabricate their own baffles from Van's kits but, I
can tell you from experience, it will take about 20 hours.
Now, I need to mock up a set and see how close they are.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Courtney" <jamey(at)jamescourtney.net> |
| Subject: | Baffles for the Jaguar cowling. |
You drove from Auburn to Fremont today? It was beautiful (okay, a few
clouds in your direction). You should have flown to into Hayward and I
could have given you a lift on your errand.
Best,
Jamey
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 1:29 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Baffles for the Jaguar cowling.
I drove over to Fremont yesterday and picked up the baffles. I needed one
set for Martin's plane, one set for Brian's plane, and one set for Ned's
plane.
The cost for one set, 13 pieces, was $1600.00. The cost for 5 sets was
$3000.00. The cost for 10 sets was $5,000.00. Yikes. $500.00 a set.
Anyway, I have them now and they are beautiful. They come with the part
number stamped in them. The fabricator brushed and alodined them too. They
are very nice.
Van's sells a complete baffle set for $275.00. They aren't finished at all,
just punched out and bent. He has to be either making a shit-load of them
or doing them in-house.
I suppose one could fabricate their own baffles from Van's kits but, I can
tell you from experience, it will take about 20 hours.
Now, I need to mock up a set and see how close they are.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
23:35:00
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Baffles for the Jaguar cowling. |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
The baffles I had made were the result of a years worth of trimming and fi
tting and then turning them into CAD files. I'm hoping they fit out-of-th
e-box.
I'll know in a few days.
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 30, 2010 4:31 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Baffles for the Jaguar cowling.
I bought a set of Van's baffles 3 years ago when I installed the O-320 eng
ine in my Lynx for $200. I think it took me over 40 hrs to install them
with 75% of the time on the front baffles and the one over the top of the
engine which seal to the nose bowl. The ramps on the front baffles had
to be bent in 3 places and much trimming and riveting on some extra gusse
ts to make them fit the Grumman nose bowl. I must have had the nose bowl
and cowling on and off at least 20 times or more! The end result was exc
ellent cooling and baffling that is much better than anything Grumman ever
built. I guess if I took them off, made drawings and duplicated them you
could do it in far less time.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 1:28 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Baffles for the Jaguar cowling.
I drove over to Fremont yesterday and picked up the baffles. I needed
one set for Martin's plane, one set for Brian's plane, and one set for
Ned's plane.
The cost for one set, 13 pieces, was $1600.00. The cost for 5 sets was
$3000.00. The cost for 10 sets was $5,000.00. Yikes. $500.00 a set.
Anyway, I have them now and they are beautiful. They come with the pa
rt number stamped in them. The fabricator brushed and alodined them too
. They are very nice.
Van's sells a complete baffle set for $275.00. They aren't finished at
all, just punched out and bent. He has to be either making a shit-load
of them or doing them in-house.
I suppose one could fabricate their own baffles from Van's kits but, I
can tell you from experience, it will take about 20 hours.
Now, I need to mock up a set and see how close they are.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
========================
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Baffles for the Jaguar cowling. |
>Van's sells a complete baffle set for $275.00. They aren't finished
>at all, just punched out and bent. He has to be either making a
>shit-load of them or doing them in-house.
I think the answer is both... Vans fancy CNC machine is shown here...
http://www.kitplanes.com/news/news/9112-1.phtml
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Baffles for the Jaguar cowling. |
BTW, how is your RV project coming along, Gil? I forgot, is it an RV-6A
or a -7A?
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Gil Alexander
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com ; teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Baffles for the Jaguar cowling.
Van's sells a complete baffle set for $275.00. They aren't finished
at all, just punched out and bent. He has to be either making a
shit-load of them or doing them in-house.
I think the answer is both... Vans fancy CNC machine is shown here...
http://www.kitplanes.com/news/news/9112-1.phtml
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx. 1000rpm |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)aol.com |
Here is the ripple on a PP alternator. Even with a Zeftronics regulator
and a Garmin audio panel, the noise comes through.
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Wannamaker <keith(at)wannamaker.org>
Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:51 am
Subject: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx. 1000rpm
Gary, here is an oscope on my bus with the plane-power. I'm a bit like a
hog looking at a wristwatch with the readout. I'm not sure if it is sayi
ng 1/2 volt AC top to bottom or 1/8 volt top to bottom. The plane power
guy claims that 1/8 volt ac is within spec, but I sent him the picture an
d am waiting to hear back.
Keith
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx. 1000rpm |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Keith & Gary:
Looking at your picture ... In the lower right corner the screen reads 0.2
V/Div.
That means between EACH large Tic it is 0.2 V.
SO ... Your Peak reading is about (again looking at the picture) 0.24 Volts
and the Peak to Peak (P-P) is 0.28 Volts.
As for what is acceptable... That may be determined by the manufacture or
the FAA. I do not know. BUT! When I do a very simple but ACCURATE test
using a DMM (Digital Multi Meter) I look for 0.4 to 0.5 V AC at the BATTERY
to determine if a diode is bad.
For the little voltage you are seeing I would put a 0.001 uF Ceramic Cap in
parallel with a 50,000 uF (or more) Electrolytic Cap and the NEG side of the
Cap goes to GROUND, POS side to POS Battery
AND/OR - Put a large electrolytic Cap from the 'S' terminal of the VR to
Ground.
If you have that little noise (0.48 V P-P) the caps will remove it.
Barry
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 2:48 PM, wrote:
> Here is the ripple on a PP alternator. Even with a Zeftronics regulator
> and a Garmin audio panel, the noise comes through.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Wannamaker <keith(at)wannamaker.org>
> To: Gary Vogt
> Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:51 am
> Subject: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx. 1000rpm
>
> Gary, here is an oscope on my bus with the plane-power. I'm a bit like a
> hog looking at a wristwatch with the readout. I'm not sure if it is saying
> 1/2 volt AC top to bottom or 1/8 volt top to bottom. The plane power guy
> claims that 1/8 volt ac is within spec, but I sent him the picture and am
> waiting to hear back.
>
> Keith
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx. 1000rpm |
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
The whole point is not to patch together something that should work withou
t a "FIX." It says right on the alternator and the associated paperwork
that no noise filter is required.
It's kind of like wearing a glove when you buy a pen that leaks.
-----Original Message-----
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 2:47 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx.
1000rpm
Keith & Gary:
Looking at your picture ... In the lower right corner the screen reads 0.2
V/Div.
That means between EACH large Tic it is 0.2 V.
SO ... Your Peak reading is about (again looking at the picture) 0.24 Volt
s and the Peak to Peak (P-P) is 0.28 Volts.
As for what is acceptable... That may be determined by the manufacture or
the FAA. I do not know. BUT! When I do a very simple but ACCURATE test
using a DMM (Digital Multi Meter) I look for 0.4 to 0.5 V AC at the BATTE
RY to determine if a diode is bad.
For the little voltage you are seeing I would put a 0.001 uF Ceramic Cap
in parallel with a 50,000 uF (or more) Electrolytic Cap and the NEG side
of the Cap goes to GROUND, POS side to POS Battery
AND/OR - Put a large electrolytic Cap from the 'S' terminal of the VR to
Ground.
If you have that little noise (0.48 V P-P) the caps will remove it.
Barry
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 2:48 PM, wrote:
Here is the ripple on a PP alternator. Even with a Zeftronics regulator
and a Garmin audio panel, the noise comes through.
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Wannamaker <keith(at)wannamaker.org>
Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:51 am
Subject: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx. 1000rpm
Gary, here is an oscope on my bus with the plane-power. I'm a bit like a
hog looking at a wristwatch with the readout. I'm not sure if it is sayi
ng 1/2 volt AC top to bottom or 1/8 volt top to bottom. The plane power
guy claims that 1/8 volt ac is within spec, but I sent him the picture an
d am waiting to hear back.
Keith
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx. 1000rpm |
Gary,
At 5 mS/div on the scope... could you be seeing some 60 Hz pickup? -
which would be just over 3 divisions.
Is the noise frequency proportional to RPM?
How long was the ground lead to your probe?
gil A
At 08:55 PM 2/4/2010, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
>The whole point is not to patch together something that should work
>without a "FIX." It says right on the alternator and the associated
>paperwork that no noise filter is required.
>
>It's kind of like wearing a glove when you buy a pen that leaks.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
>To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 2:47 pm
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at
>approx. 1000rpm
>
>Keith & Gary:
>
>Looking at your picture ... In the lower right corner the screen
>reads 0.2 V/Div.
>That means between EACH large Tic it is 0.2 V.
>SO ... Your Peak reading is about (again looking at the picture)
>0.24 Volts and the Peak to Peak (P-P) is 0.28 Volts.
>As for what is acceptable... That may be determined by the
>manufacture or the FAA. I do not know. BUT! When I do a very
>simple but ACCURATE test using a DMM (Digital Multi Meter) I look
>for 0.4 to 0.5 V AC at the BATTERY to determine if a diode is bad.
>
>For the little voltage you are seeing I would put a 0.001 uF Ceramic
>Cap in parallel with a 50,000 uF (or more) Electrolytic Cap and the
>NEG side of the Cap goes to GROUND, POS side to POS Battery
>
>AND/OR - Put a large electrolytic Cap from the 'S' terminal of the
>VR to Ground.
>
>If you have that little noise (0.48 V P-P) the caps will remove it.
>
>Barry
>
>
>On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 2:48 PM,
><teamgrumman(at)aol.com> wrote:
>Here is the ripple on a PP alternator. Even with a Zeftronics
>regulator and a Garmin audio panel, the noise comes through.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Keith Wannamaker <<mailto:keith(at)wannamaker.org>keith(at)wannamaker.org>
>To: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)aol.com>
>Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:51 am
>Subject: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx. 1000rpm
>
>Gary, here is an oscope on my bus with the plane-power. I'm a bit
>like a hog looking at a wristwatch with the readout. I'm not sure
>if it is saying 1/2 volt AC top to bottom or 1/8 volt top to
>bottom. The plane power guy claims that 1/8 volt ac is within spec,
>but I sent him the picture and am waiting to hear back.
>
>Keith
>
>
>===================================
>ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>===================================
>ttp://forums.matronics.com
>===================================
>ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>===================================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "923te" <923te(at)att.net> |
Grumman Gang,
MT Propeller has received Supplemental Type Certificate for installing
their MTV-18-B/183-59b propeller assembly with 2700 RPM controller on
all models of Grumman Tigers. This STC was initiated through a
cooperative of 2 Grumman gangers and the MT distributor Jim Ayers with
Less Drag Products. This STC uses the latest, most efficient blade
design. Pictures and more information are available at links below.
The MT propeller is an electrically controlled constant speed prop. It
has both an automatic mode and a manual mode. In the auto mode you
simply dial in the desired RPM and the controller will hold that RPM. In
the manual mode the pilot must hold the RPM thru a momentary switch. It
works great and really makes a whole new airplane out of the Tiger.
As an introductory special, we have been able to arrange that the first
10 props can be sold at a 10% discount. The current price of the prop is
$12,480. The discounted price for the first ten purchasers is $11,232.
The prop is shipped disassembled from Germany to Less Drag Products,
Inc. in Southern California for $360 so the total cost is $11,592 plus
freight to you, or you can fly in to Less Drag Products at OXNARD
airport and fly home faster. This special group purchase price ends
March 15 and MT is raising prices on April 1, so if you want to go
faster and climb better, now is the time to do it.
Website links that you should check out:
http://www.mt-propeller.com/en/entw/stcusa/grumman.htm
http://www.mt-propeller.com/en/entw/electric.htm
Here are MT Data and manual links:
http://www.mt-propeller.com/pdf/datsheet/mtv-18.pdf
The Design Limit for the MT prop is 300HP at 2800RPM
Manual:
http://www.mt-propeller.com/pdf/manuals/e-118.pdf
Email me Ned Thomas at 923te(at)att.net to hold a place in the group
purchase.
Contact Jim Ayers for more details on the prop at 805-795-5377 8am to
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx. 1000rpm |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
I agree. It should work correctly.
Couldn't you think of a better analogy ... Say ... Like taking a shower with
an raincoat on.
Because if the glove don't fit you must acquit.
Barry
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:55 PM, wrote:
> The whole point is not to patch together something that should work without
> a "FIX." It says right on the alternator and the associated paperwork that
> no noise filter is required.
>
> It's kind of like wearing a glove when you buy a pen that leaks.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 2:47 pm
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx.
> 1000rpm
>
> Keith & Gary:
>
> Looking at your picture ... In the lower right corner the screen reads 0.2
> V/Div.
> That means between EACH large Tic it is 0.2 V.
> SO ... Your Peak reading is about (again looking at the picture) 0.24 Volts
> and the Peak to Peak (P-P) is 0.28 Volts.
> As for what is acceptable... That may be determined by the manufacture or
> the FAA. I do not know. BUT! When I do a very simple but ACCURATE test
> using a DMM (Digital Multi Meter) I look for 0.4 to 0.5 V AC at the BATTERY
> to determine if a diode is bad.
>
> For the little voltage you are seeing I would put a 0.001 uF Ceramic Cap in
> parallel with a 50,000 uF (or more) Electrolytic Cap and the NEG side of the
> Cap goes to GROUND, POS side to POS Battery
>
> AND/OR - Put a large electrolytic Cap from the 'S' terminal of the VR to
> Ground.
>
> If you have that little noise (0.48 V P-P) the caps will remove it.
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 2:48 PM, wrote:
>
>> Here is the ripple on a PP alternator. Even with a Zeftronics regulator
>> and a Garmin audio panel, the noise comes through.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Keith Wannamaker <keith(at)wannamaker.org>
>> To: Gary Vogt
>> Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:51 am
>> Subject: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx. 1000rpm
>>
>> Gary, here is an oscope on my bus with the plane-power. I'm a bit like a
>> hog looking at a wristwatch with the readout. I'm not sure if it is saying
>> 1/2 volt AC top to bottom or 1/8 volt top to bottom. The plane power guy
>> claims that 1/8 volt ac is within spec, but I sent him the picture and am
>> waiting to hear back.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> ===================================
> ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ===================================
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx. 1000rpm |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Gary:
You are correct, the time base should be opened up to define the type of
wave and see if there is a identifiable frequency.
We could start a thread on how to use an O-Scope?
f = 1/T
T- 1/f ...
So 60 Hz would have a time base of 0.01666
Hey! Pretty good picture of the scope and wave form.
Barry
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 11:50 PM, Gil Alexander wrote:
> Gary,
>
> At 5 mS/div on the scope... could you be seeing some 60 Hz pickup? - which
> would be just over 3 divisions.
>
> Is the noise frequency proportional to RPM?
>
> How long was the ground lead to your probe?
>
> gil A
>
>
> At 08:55 PM 2/4/2010, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> The whole point is not to patch together something that should work without
> a "FIX." It says right on the alternator and the associated paperwork that
> no noise filter is required.
>
> It's kind of like wearing a glove when you buy a pen that leaks.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 2:47 pm
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx.
> 1000rpm
>
> Keith & Gary:
>
> Looking at your picture ... In the lower right corner the screen reads 0.2
> V/Div.
> That means between EACH large Tic it is 0.2 V.
> SO ... Your Peak reading is about (again looking at the picture) 0.24 Volts
> and the Peak to Peak (P-P) is 0.28 Volts.
> As for what is acceptable... That may be determined by the manufacture or
> the FAA. I do not know. BUT! When I do a very simple but ACCURATE test
> using a DMM (Digital Multi Meter) I look for 0.4 to 0.5 V AC at the BATTERY
> to determine if a diode is bad.
>
> For the little voltage you are seeing I would put a 0.001 uF Ceramic Cap in
> parallel with a 50,000 uF (or more) Electrolytic Cap and the NEG side of the
> Cap goes to GROUND, POS side to POS Battery
>
> AND/OR - Put a large electrolytic Cap from the 'S' terminal of the VR to
> Ground.
>
> If you have that little noise (0.48 V P-P) the caps will remove it.
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 2:48 PM, wrote:
> Here is the ripple on a PP alternator. Even with a Zeftronics regulator
> and a Garmin audio panel, the noise comes through.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Wannamaker <keith(at)wannamaker.org>
> To: Gary Vogt
> Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:51 am
> Subject: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx. 1000rpm
>
> Gary, here is an oscope on my bus with the plane-power. I'm a bit like a
> hog looking at a wristwatch with the readout. I'm not sure if it is saying
> 1/2 volt AC top to bottom or 1/8 volt top to bottom. The plane power guy
> claims that 1/8 volt ac is within spec, but I sent him the picture and am
> waiting to hear back.
>
> Keith
>
>
> ===================================
> ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ===================================
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> |
Sent this to the gang so think it's only fair to send it here!
I believe that you can also pick it up at a customs port of entry fully
assembled and save the assembly cost here in the USA.
Linn
923te wrote:
> Grumman Gang,
>
>
>
> MT Propeller has received Supplemental Type Certificate for installing
> their MTV-18-B/183-59b propeller assembly with 2700 RPM controller on
> all models of Grumman Tigers. This STC was initiated through a
> cooperative of 2 Grumman gangers and the MT distributor Jim Ayers
> with Less Drag Products. This STC uses the latest, most efficient blade
> design. Pictures and more information are available at links below.
>
>
>
> The MT propeller is an electrically controlled constant speed prop. It
> has both an automatic mode and a manual mode. In the auto mode you
> simply dial in the desired RPM and the controller will hold that RPM. In
> the manual mode the pilot must hold the RPM thru a momentary switch. It
> works great and really makes a whole new airplane out of the Tiger.
>
>
>
> As an introductory special, we have been able to arrange that the first
> 10 props can be sold at a 10% discount. The current price of the prop is
> $12,480. The discounted price for the first ten purchasers is $11,232.
> The prop is shipped disassembled from Germany to Less Drag Products,
> Inc. in Southern California for $360 so the total cost is $11,592 plus
> freight to you, or you can fly in to Less Drag Products at OXNARD
> airport and fly home faster. This special group purchase price
> ends March 15 and MT is raising prices on April 1, so if you want to go
> faster and climb better, now is the time to do it.
>
>
>
> Website links that you should check out:
>
> http://www.mt-propeller.com/en/entw/stcusa/grumman.htm
>
>
>
> http://www.mt-propeller.com/en/entw/electric.htm
>
>
>
> Here are MT Data and manual links:
>
> http://www.mt-propeller.com/pdf/datsheet/mtv-18.pdf
>
> The Design Limit for the MT prop is 300HP at 2800RPM
>
> Manual:
>
> http://www.mt-propeller.com/pdf/manuals/e-118.pdf
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Email me Ned Thomas at 923te(at)att.net to hold a place in the group purchase.
>
>
>
> Contact Jim Ayers for more details on the prop at 805-795-5377 8am to
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx. |
1000rpm
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
This was an installation of a new PP alternator and the owner complained
of noise on the first flight after installation. The alternator was remo
ved and the installation inspected, ground to alternator verified. Noise
is still present.
Noise is proportional to rpm. Noise goes away with master off. Even cont
rollers complained of the noise. This noise was not there with the origin
al alternator.
The ground lead was long enough to reach the O-scope.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 8:50 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx
. 1000rpm
Gary,
At 5 mS/div on the scope... could you be seeing some 60 Hz pickup? -which
would be just over 3 divisions.
Is the noise frequency proportional to RPM?
How long was the ground lead to your probe?
gil A
At 08:55 PM 2/4/2010, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
Thewhole point is not to patch together something that should work without
a"FIX." It says right on the alternator and the associatedpaperwork that
no noise filter is required.
It's kind of like wearing a glove when you buy a pen that leaks.
-----Original Message-----
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 2:47 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx.1
000rpm
Keith & Gary:
Looking at your picture ... In the lower right corner the screen reads0.2
V/Div.
That means between EACH large Tic it is 0.2 V.
SO ... Your Peak reading is about (again looking at the picture) 0.24Volts
and the Peak to Peak (P-P) is 0.28 Volts.
As for what is acceptable... That may be determined by the manufacture ort
he FAA. I do not know. BUT! When I do a very simplebut ACCURATE test us
ing a DMM (Digital Multi Meter) I look for 0.4 to 0.5V AC at the BATTERY
to determine if a diode is bad.
For the little voltage you are seeing I would put a 0.001 uF Ceramic Capin
parallel with a 50,000 uF (or more) Electrolytic Cap and the NEG sideof
the Cap goes to GROUND, POS side to POS Battery
AND/OR - Put a large electrolytic Cap from the 'S' terminal of the VR toGr
ound.
If you have that little noise (0.48 V P-P) the caps will remove it.
Barry
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 2:48 PM,wrote:
Here is the ripple on a PP alternator. Even with a Zeftronicsregulator an
d a Garmin audio panel, the noise comes through.
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Wannamaker<keith(at)wannamaker.org>
Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:51 am
Subject: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx. 1000rpm
Gary, here is an oscope on my bus with the plane-power. I'm abit like a
hog looking at a wristwatch with the readout. I'm notsure if it is sayin
g 1/2 volt AC top to bottom or 1/8 volt top tobottom. The plane power guy
claims that 1/8 volt ac is within spec,but I sent him the picture and am
waiting to hear back.
Keith
========================
===========
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
========================
===========
ttp://forums.matronics.com
========================
===========
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
how does it compare to other props, i.e., the Hartzell Scimitar prop.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>
Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:00 pm
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
Grumman Gang,
MT Propeller has received Supplemental Type Certificate for installing the
ir MTV-18-B/183-59b propeller assembly with 2700 RPM controller on all mod
els of Grumman Tigers. This STC was initiated through a cooperative of 2
Grumman gangers and the MT distributor Jim Ayers with Less Drag Products.
This STC uses the latest, most efficient blade design. Pictures and more
information are available at links below.
The MT propeller is an electrically controlled constant speed prop. It has
both an automatic mode and a manual mode. In the auto mode you simply dia
l in the desired RPM and the controller will hold that RPM. In the manual
mode the pilot must hold the RPM thru a momentary switch. It works great
and really makes a whole new airplane out of the Tiger.
As an introductory special, we have been able to arrange that the first 10
props can be sold at a 10% discount. The current price of the prop is $12
,480. The discounted price for the first ten purchasers is $11,232. The
prop is shipped disassembled from Germany to Less Drag Products, Inc. in
Southern California for $360 so the total cost is $11,592 plus freight to
you, or you can fly in to Less Drag Products at OXNARD airport and fly ho
me faster. This special group purchase price ends March 15 and MT is rais
ing prices on April 1, so if you want to go faster and climb better, now
is the time to do it.
Website links that you should check out:
http://www.mt-propeller.com/en/entw/stcusa/grumman.htm
http://www.mt-propeller.com/en/entw/electric.htm
Here are MT Data and manual links:
http://www.mt-propeller.com/pdf/datsheet/mtv-18.pdf
The Design Limit for the MT prop is 300HP at 2800RPM
Manual:
http://www.mt-propeller.com/pdf/manuals/e-118.pdf
Email me Ned Thomas at 923te(at)att.net to hold a place in the group purchase
.
Contact Jim Ayers for more details on the prop at 805-795-5377 8am to 8pm
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
With regard to performance or price? Performance is similar I think and
price is considerably more than a Hartzell. When BO gets done
devaluating our dollar the MT prop will cost even more!
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman(at)aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
how does it compare to other props, i.e., the Hartzell Scimitar prop.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:00 pm
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
Grumman Gang,
MT Propeller has received Supplemental Type Certificate for installing
their MTV-18-B/183-59b propeller assembly with 2700 RPM controller on
all models of Grumman Tigers. This STC was initiated through a
cooperative of 2 Grumman gangers and the MT distributor Jim Ayers with
Less Drag Products. This STC uses the latest, most efficient blade
design. Pictures and more information are available at links below.
The MT propeller is an electrically controlled constant speed prop. It
has both an automatic mode and a manual mode. In the auto mode you
simply dial in the desired RPM and the controller will hold that RPM. In
the manual mode the pilot must hold the RPM thru a momentary switch. It
works great and really makes a whole new airplane out of the Tiger.
As an introductory special, we have been able to arrange that the
first 10 props can be sold at a 10% discount. The current price of the
prop is $12,480. The discounted price for the first ten purchasers is
$11,232. The prop is shipped disassembled from Germany to Less Drag
Products, Inc. in Southern California for $360 so the total cost is
$11,592 plus freight to you, or you can fly in to Less Drag Products at
OXNARD airport and fly home faster. This special group purchase price
ends March 15 and MT is raising prices on April 1, so if you want to go
faster and climb better, now is the time to do it.
Website links that you should check out:
http://www.mt-propeller.com/en/entw/stcusa/grumman.htm
http://www.mt-propeller.com/en/entw/electric.htm
Here are MT Data and manual links:
http://www.mt-propeller.com/pdf/datsheet/mtv-18.pdf
The Design Limit for the MT prop is 300HP at 2800RPM
Manual:
http://www.mt-propeller.com/pdf/manuals/e-118.pdf
Email me Ned Thomas at 923te(at)att.net to hold a place in the group
purchase.
Contact Jim Ayers for more details on the prop at 805-795-5377 8am to
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
ttp://forums.matronics.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM |
and weight
-----Original Message-----
From: teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM
Sent: Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:18 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
how does it compare to other props, i.e., the Hartzell Scimitar prop.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>
Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:00 pm
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
Grumman Gang,
MT Propeller has received Supplemental Type Certificate for installing the
ir MTV-18-B/183-59b propeller assembly with 2700 RPM controller on all mod
els of Grumman Tigers. This STC was initiated through a cooperative of 2
Grumman gangers and the MT distributor Jim Ayers with Less Drag Products.
This STC uses the latest, most efficient blade design. Pictures and more
information are available at links below.
The MT propeller is an electrically controlled constant speed prop. It has
both an automatic mode and a manual mode. In the auto mode you simply dia
l in the desired RPM and the controller will hold that RPM. In the manual
mode the pilot must hold the RPM thru a momentary switch. It works great
and really makes a whole new airplane out of the Tiger.
As an introductory special, we have been able to arrange that the first 10
props can be sold at a 10% discount. The current price of the prop is $12
,480. The discounted price for the first ten purchasers is $11,232. The
prop is shipped disassembled from Germany to Less Drag Products, Inc. in
Southern California for $360 so the total cost is $11,592 plus freight to
you, or you can fly in to Less Drag Products at OXNARD airport and fly ho
me faster. This special group purchase price ends March 15 and MT is rais
ing prices on April 1, so if you want to go faster and climb better, now
is the time to do it.
Website links that you should check out:
http://www.mt-propeller.com/en/entw/stcusa/grumman.htm
http://www.mt-propeller.com/en/entw/electric.htm
Here are MT Data and manual links:
http://www.mt-propeller.com/pdf/datsheet/mtv-18.pdf
The Design Limit for the MT prop is 300HP at 2800RPM
Manual:
http://www.mt-propeller.com/pdf/manuals/e-118.pdf
Email me Ned Thomas at 923te(at)att.net to hold a place in the group purchase
.
Contact Jim Ayers for more details on the prop at 805-795-5377 8am to 8pm
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ttp://forums.matronics.com
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ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx. 1000rpm |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Gary:
The noise going away with the Master OFF is normal. With the Master OFF
there is NO voltage being supplied to the Alternator Field, there for NO
output from the Alt.
I am not sure what you are referring to when you say: "The ground lead was
long enough to reach the O-scope." Which ground lead, the scope's?
I would LQQK at the GROUND of the VR. Start by making a SHORT but HEAVY
gage wire with alligator clips to function as a ground and hook it to the VR
and see if the noise diminishes or goes away.
Also check the ENGINE GROUND, the BATTERY GROUND and of course the ALT
GROUND.
Going back to your O-Scope run a shielded or twisted pair of wires to the
scope. Set the scope to monitor a 60 Hz noise and see if the frequency
changes with RPM. If it does there is a HUGE change there is a bad diode or
diode connection in the ALT.
If as you say CONTROLLERS are also hearing the NOISE then the noise is
coming in on the B+ line and reflects back to the two items mentioned above
- GROUND and/or Diode.
Barry
Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 8:50 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx.
1000rpm
Gary,
>
> At 5 mS/div on the scope... could you be seeing some 60 Hz pickup? - which
> would be just over 3 divisions.
>
> Is the noise frequency proportional to RPM?
>
> How long was the ground lead to your probe?
>
> gil A
>
>
> At 08:55 PM 2/4/2010, teamgrumman(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> The whole point is not to patch together something that should work without
> a "FIX." It says right on the alternator and the associated paperwork that
> no noise filter is required.
>
> It's kind of like wearing a glove when you buy a pen that leaks.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 2:47 pm
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx.
> 1000rpm
>
> Keith & Gary:
>
> Looking at your picture ... In the lower right corner the screen reads 0.2
> V/Div.
> That means between EACH large Tic it is 0.2 V.
> SO ... Your Peak reading is about (again looking at the picture) 0.24 Volts
> and the Peak to Peak (P-P) is 0.28 Volts.
> As for what is acceptable... That may be determined by the manufacture or
> the FAA. I do not know. BUT! When I do a very simple but ACCURATE test
> using a DMM (Digital Multi Meter) I look for 0.4 to 0.5 V AC at the BATTERY
> to determine if a diode is bad.
>
> For the little voltage you are seeing I would put a 0.001 uF Ceramic Cap in
> parallel with a 50,000 uF (or more) Electrolytic Cap and the NEG side of the
> Cap goes to GROUND, POS side to POS Battery
>
> AND/OR - Put a large electrolytic Cap from the 'S' terminal of the VR to
> Ground.
>
> If you have that little noise (0.48 V P-P) the caps will remove it.
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 2:48 PM, wrote:
> Here is the ripple on a PP alternator. Even with a Zeftronics regulator
> and a Garmin audio panel, the noise comes through.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Wannamaker <keith(at)wannamaker.org>
> To: Gary Vogt
> Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 10:51 am
> Subject: Fwd: AC voltage at aircraft bus at approx. 1000rpm
>
> Gary, here is an oscope on my bus with the plane-power. I'm a bit like a
> hog looking at a wristwatch with the readout. I'm not sure if it is saying
> 1/2 volt AC top to bottom or 1/8 volt top to bottom. The plane power guy
> claims that 1/8 volt ac is within spec, but I sent him the picture and am
> waiting to hear back.
>
> Keith
>
>
> ===================================
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> ===================================
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>
>
> *
>
> ===================================
> ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
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> ===================================
> *
>
> *
>
> *
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>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
But a full price comparison with a Harzell would have to include a
new spinner and a new certified governor to add onto your O-360-xxx...
$6000 + $500 + $1500 ????
gil A
>With regard to performance or price? Performance is similar I think
>and price is considerably more than a Hartzell. When BO gets done
>devaluating our dollar the MT prop will cost even more!
>
>Cliff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
My Hartzell estimate was a bit low.
Vans Aircraft volume OEM price - to be installed on a RV-X only - is
$6600 for the new blended airfoil O-360 prop.
So, without the Vans discount, a better estimate may be -
$7200 + $500 + $1500 ????
Still less than the MT, but getting closer.
BO is screwing up the $$, but the Euro folks aren't doing too well
either - check the slope of the 4 month graph...:^)
http://www.x-rates.com/d/EUR/USD/graph120.html
gil A
>But a full price comparison with a Harzell would have to include a
>new spinner and a new certified governor to add onto your O-360-xxx...
>
>$6000 + $500 + $1500 ????
>
>gil A
>
>
>>With regard to performance or price? Performance is similar I
>>think and price is considerably more than a Hartzell. When BO gets
>>done devaluating our dollar the MT prop will cost even more!
>>
>>Cliff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "discover" <923te(at)att.net> |
I'm having trouble getting this posted. Here is the third try...
----- Original Message -----
From: 923te
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 1:51 PM
Subject: MT Prop Questions
I have tried to answer some of the questions below.
The new STC has blades that look very comparable to the Hartzel Scimitar design.
It is supposed to give me another couple of knots of speed do to it's better
efficeincy. I should know by the end of February after I have it installed.
Hartzell Scimitar propeller for the IO470 Bonanza's are $9550 come with a 2400
hour/6 year TBO and weigh 80 lbs
For the O-360 powered Cessna's are $9750 come with a 2400 hour/6 year TBO and weigh
67 lbs
These prices and weights do not include prop governor and controls.
The O-360 A4K engine in the Tiger can only get a constant speed prop thru MT propeller
as it is the only existing manufacture of a certified electric controlled
prop on the planet.
http://www.hartzellprop.com/top_prop/conversion_cutsheet.asp?manufacturer=Beechcraft&conversion_kit=B002
http://www.hartzellprop.com/top_prop/conversion_cutsheet.asp?manufacturer=Cessna&conversion_kit=C020
The lowest price is available only from Less Drag Products. Special agreements
were negotiated in order to induce MT propeller to accomplish the STC which
allow Less Drag to sell the prop exclusively at a discount.
Shipped Assembled door-to-door from Germany - $1,100 estimated. Varies with
destination. To the closest port of entry $1050 estimated plus customs and
pickup.
Shipped Disassembled from Germany to Less Drag Products, Inc. in Southern
California - $360
It is an option to have the prop shipped assembled to your place of choice. It
will may end up costing more.
The MT prop weighs itself 44-lbs
Total installation 54-lbs
McCauley 41.9-lbs
The Sensenich 42.25lbs
Prestolite MZ4222 18.5-lbs
Sky-Tec 149-12L5 8.25-lbs
OEM 24v Alternator 12.25-lbs
Plane Power 24v Alternator 9.8-lbs
Hand propping should be no different than any other 3 bladed prop.
In addition to what is called out in the Manuals of 6 years and 1800hrs TBO.
http://www.mt-propeller.com/pdf/sbs/sb1ag.pdf
I can give this testimonial:
I have flown the prop for the past 6 years and have had absolutely no
maintenance or operational issues with the prop. I have spent $0 for
maintenance. It is a very durable prop. Having the stainless steel leading
edge it can be redressed similarly to the Sensenich. Withstands rain and
racing. It was designed for up to 300hp and 2800 RPM.
As far as performance goes:
Back in 2004 I did extensive flight testing comparing the Sensenich and MT
propellers. David Fletcher donated the labor to remove the MT and reinstall
the Sensenich and then reinstall the MT. I was very confident of at least one
data point at 4000'DA. This comparison data was presented to the grumman gang
and is available in the archive or in an easier to read format here:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Ad6U0DSgjX1QZGRwd3IybjZfMGhwMnJzbWQ4&hl=en
Lots of gangers told me my plane would be a lot slower with a 3 bladed prop. I
found it was the same speed but burned less fuel. The comments at the AYA fly
in's gave me some motivation to race. After I started racing I found my plane
was able to compete with the fastest Tigers. It was very rewarding to win the
last USA held LoPresti race at the AYA convention in Iowa. While returning
from a race last November I was in a flight of two with a grand champion Tiger
racer. He could barely keep up with me and was burning over 2gph more fuel at
something above 2900rpm....he had to throttle way back in order to have enough
fuel to make his 4 hour flight nonstop....
It is also a very economical prop to fly. You can reduce RPMs to 2450 WOT and
save a couple gph and only loose around 10 knots.
Comparing to the fixed pitch 2 blade prop I have found the MT prop to give the
same as or better cruise speed and remarkably better climb AND descent speeds
and rates. You can descend at Vne and not overspeed the engine.
It really does make a whole new airplane out of the Tiger.
Best Regards,
Ned
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=285040#285040
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
Five years ago I paid $7900 for a new 3 blade (more expensive than a 2
blade) for a Hartzell Scimitar prop for my Bonanza, including shipping
from Ohio and the STC. Of course it is more than that now. My point
was, MT props are considerably more expensive than Hartzell props, model
for model.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Gil Alexander
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
My Hartzell estimate was a bit low.
Vans Aircraft volume OEM price - to be installed on a RV-X only - is
$6600 for the new blended airfoil O-360 prop.
So, without the Vans discount, a better estimate may be -
$7200 + $500 + $1500 ????
Still less than the MT, but getting closer.
BO is screwing up the $$, but the Euro folks aren't doing too well
either - check the slope of the 4 month graph...:^)
http://www.x-rates.com/d/EUR/USD/graph120.html
gil A
But a full price comparison with a Harzell would have to include a
new spinner and a new certified governor to add onto your O-360-xxx...
$6000 + $500 + $1500 ????
gil A
With regard to performance or price? Performance is similar I
think and price is considerably more than a Hartzell. When BO gets done
devaluating our dollar the MT prop will cost even more!
Cliff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
Forgot to mention that the price I mentioned INCLUDED the spinner
assembly.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: flyv35b
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
Five years ago I paid $7900 for a new 3 blade (more expensive than a 2
blade) for a Hartzell Scimitar prop for my Bonanza, including shipping
from Ohio and the STC. Of course it is more than that now. My point
was, MT props are considerably more expensive than Hartzell props, model
for model.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Gil Alexander
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
My Hartzell estimate was a bit low.
Vans Aircraft volume OEM price - to be installed on a RV-X only - is
$6600 for the new blended airfoil O-360 prop.
So, without the Vans discount, a better estimate may be -
$7200 + $500 + $1500 ????
Still less than the MT, but getting closer.
BO is screwing up the $$, but the Euro folks aren't doing too well
either - check the slope of the 4 month graph...:^)
http://www.x-rates.com/d/EUR/USD/graph120.html
gil A
But a full price comparison with a Harzell would have to include a
new spinner and a new certified governor to add onto your O-360-xxx...
$6000 + $500 + $1500 ????
gil A
With regard to performance or price? Performance is similar I
think and price is considerably more than a Hartzell. When BO gets done
devaluating our dollar the MT prop will cost even more!
Cliff
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gil Alexander <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
November 14, 2009 - February 06, 2010
TeamGrumman-Archive.digest.vol-ax