TeamGrumman-Archive.digest.vol-bw
June 21, 2012 - September 24, 2012
Hi Bobby,=0A=0AGood to hear from you. =C2-I don't hear from you often.
=C2-I'll look for the steps. =C2-How have you been? =C2-How is Cynthi
a? =C2-We're doing well. =C2-Clytie got her tongue operated on. =C2-I
'm sure she'll tell you all about it when we see you.=0A=0AYour friend in t
he Gold Country=0AGary=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "D
enham, Bobby D." =0ATo: "'teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
'" =0ASent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 7:34 P
M=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Parts is Parts=0A =0A=0AI could maybe us
e the steps. For the future. =0A=0ABob =0A-------------------------- =0ASen
t using BlackBerry =0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AFrom: Gary Vogt [mailto:teamgrumman@ya
hoo.com] =0ASent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 07:14 PM=0ATo: Teamgrumman List <
teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com> =0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: Parts is Part
s =0A=C2-=0A=0ACleaning out the attic. =C2-Spring cleaning and all. =C2
-Make an offer on anything you want or need.=0A=0A=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=A2 A
A5x Rudder & vertical=C2-=0A=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=A2=C2-AG5B Seats. =C2-
I paid $1000 for them. =C2-Material looks new. =C2-Maroon. =C2-=0A=0A
=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=A2=C2-AA5x cowling=0A=0A=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=A2=C2-AA5
x aileron weights. =C2-Powder coated in silver.=0A=0A=C3=A2=82=AC=C2
=A2=C2-AA5x nose fork. =C2-New bearings, not installed.=0A=0A=C3=A2
=82=AC=C2=A2=C2-AA5x axles.=0A=0A=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=A2=C2-Assorted O320
and O360 exhaust risers. =C2-=0A=0A=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=A2=C2-AA5x landi
ng gear castings. =C2-The some what "U" shaped pieces.=0A=0A=C3=A2=82
=AC=C2=A2=C2-AA5x flap cross-shaft=0A=0A=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=A2=C2-some o
ther flap mechanism pieces. =C2-No motor.=0A=0A=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=A2=C2
-Hobbs with switch.=0A=0A=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=A2=C2-3 elevator tips. =C2
-One is new.=0A=0A=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=A2=C2-AA1 nose gear strut. =C2-P
ainted in black Imron. =C2-Was being used on an AG5B.=0A=0A=C3=A2=82
=AC=C2=A2=C2-Step fairings (2 of each) =C2-=0A=0A=C2- =C2-I think I
have the steps also. =C2-=0A=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=A2=C2-2 brake disks.
=C2-I think one is chrome. =C2-Both are in very nice condition.=0A=0A
=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=A2=C2-1 new cabin light/map light plastic=C2-=0A=0A
=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=A2=C2-2 M-20 air-oil separators.=0A=0A=C3=A2=82=AC
=C2=A2=C2-AA5x control "T" bar.=0A=0A=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=A2=C2-4 cabin v
entilators (the plastic box under the panel). =C2-2 of them have the vent
s. =C2-vents in good shape.=0A=0A=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=A2=C2-AA5x Rudder p
eddle shafts, with peddles.=0A=0A=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=A2=C2-4 complete nose
=============== =0A=C2=C2=B7=BA~
=B0=C3=AD=C2=B2,=C3=9Eg(=93=C5-=C3=93M4=C3=93G=C3=9Aq=C3=BC=C2
=A2=C3=C3=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2=AB8^M=C3=C2=C2=BB
=C2=84=A2=C2=A9=C3=8B=C5-=C3=8BD=84=A2=C2=A8=C2=A5=C5-=C3=AE
=EF=BD,z=C3=98^1=C2=ABk=C2=A2x=C5=93=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B4W=C5=A1=C2
=B6=C3=C3=9E=C2=B0=C3'=C2=AF=C5-=C2=AD=C2=A2=C2=BBhn=C2=BA0=C2=B1=C3
=AD=C3=A9=C5=A1=C5=B8"=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9B=C2=AD=C5-X=C2=AD
=B0=C3=AB,=C2=B9=C3=88Z=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B5I=C3J=C3=C3=ACr=C2=B8
=C2=A9=C2=B6*'
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Parts is Parts |
| From: | Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
Garner,
sorry I don't speak Texan.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 21, 2012, at 8:09 PM, Garner Rice wrote:
> ditto to the tenth
>
>
>
> From: BDDenham(at)lasd.org
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Parts is Parts
> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 02:34:12 +0000
>
> I could maybe use the steps. For the future.
>
> Bob
> --------------------------
> Sent using BlackBerry
>
>
> From: Gary Vogt [mailto:teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 07:14 PM
> To: Teamgrumman List
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Parts is Parts
>
> Cleaning out the attic. Spring cleaning and all. Make an offer on anythi
ng you want or need.
>
> =A2 AA5x Rudder & vertical
> =A2 AG5B Seats. I paid $1000 for them. Material looks new. Maroon
.
> =A2 AA5x cowling
> =A2 AA5x aileron weights. Powder coated in silver.
> =A2 AA5x nose fork. New bearings, not installed.
> =A2 AA5x axles.
> =A2 Assorted O320 and O360 exhaust risers.
> =A2 AA5x landing gear castings. The some what "U" shaped pieces.
> =A2 AA5x flap cross-shaft
> =A2 some other flap mechanism pieces. No motor.
> =A2 Hobbs with switch.
> =A2 3 elevator tips. One is new.
> =A2 AA1 nose gear strut. Painted in black Imron. Was being used on
an AG5B.
> =A2 Step fairings (2 of each)
> I think I have the steps also.
> =A2 2 brake disks. I think one is chrome. Both are in very nice co
ndition.
> =A2 1 new cabin light/map light plastic
> =A2 2 M-20 air-oil separators.
> =A2 AA5x control "T" bar.
> =A2 4 cabin ventilators (the plastic box under the panel). 2 of the
m have the vents. vents in good shape.
> =A2 AA5x Rudder peddle shafts, with peddles.
> =A2 4 complete nose gear shock assemblies. i.e., 8 shocks and the m
ounts.
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
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=EF=BD=EF=BD+=EF=BD=EF=BD=1E=EF=BD=D7=ABzwb=7F=EF=BD=7F=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDZnW=EF=BDv+=EF=BD\t=EF=BD-$=EF=BD
=EF=BDDC=EF=BDc=EF=BD=EF=BDw/=EF=BDi
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Mutzman <rcmutz(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing friction and speed... |
All:
The visousity of the fluid=2C the velocity of that fluid over the surface
=2C and the length of the surface (ie Reynolds Number) are a major players
here in how the boundry layer behaves. Before sanding or dimpling your win
gs=2C I would recommend you do some serious reading on boundary layer theor
y for compressible fluids.
PS- I know Roger's response is somewhat tongue and cheek we applied to air
plane wings.
Richard Mutzman
BSAE=2C MSAE
N399RM
Message: 5
Date: Mon=2C 18 Jun 2012 10:55:04 -0400
From: Roger Rowlett <rrowlett(at)colgate.edu>
Subject: Wing friction and speed...
Content-Type: text/plain=3B charset="us-ascii"
OK=2C I was intrigued by the recent discussion about the influence of hull
roughness on flying speed. In particular=2C I was curious about the theory
of sanding boat hulls to gain speed=2C so I decided to ask a championship
small-boat sailor I know about it. Here is is response for improving the
speed of your favorite Grumman:
"By all means sand your wings [to get more speed]. Use 100 grit
paper and work down to 60 grit. Then pound the wings with a large
ball peen hammer with extra attention to the leading edges. Then
down a bottle of Jack Daniels and go flying and you will notice the
difference. Seriously=2C "wet sanding" with up to 600 grit wet or dry
sandpaper used wet is a common "go fast" treatment for sailboat
hulls and I have done it on painted wood boats I have raced."
I wouldn't recommend altering your Grumman's wings according to my
colleague's instructions=2C but in the sailing community some appropriate
application of the boundary effect is known and used. Based on the
deteriorating condition of the paint on my AA-5 upper wing surface=2C I
should have the fastest model around. :)
Cheers=2C
_______________________________________
Roger Rowlett
AA-5 N7159L
KVGC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing friction and speed... |
A few years ago, many probably, Hot Rod magazine did an article on skin fri
ction and how it affected drag cars and Indy cars. -Their conclusion: und
er 100 mph, the surface smoothness has a negligible effect. -Between 100
and 150 mph, it had some effect, i.e., the smoother the better. -Over 150
mph, aerodynamics really are the primary factors and controlling flow dire
ction and separation had a big effect. -=0A=0ABottom line is, the brake f
airing fit to the wheel pant has a bigger influence than a waxed wing at to
p speed. -Hell, the VOR antennas create more drag than an unwaxed wing.
=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Richard Mutzman <rcmutz@
msn.com>=0ATo: Team Grumman =0ASent: Frida
y, June 22, 2012 8:57 AM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Wing friction and
speed...=0A =0A=0A =0AAll:=0A-=0AThe visousity of the fluid, the velocit
y of that fluid over the surface, and the length of the surface (ie Reynold
s Number)-are a major players here in how the boundry layer behaves.- B
efore sanding or dimpling your wings, I would recommend you do some serious
reading on boundary layer theory for compressible fluids.=0A-=0APS-- I
know Roger's response is somewhat tongue and cheek we applied to airplane
wings.- =0A=0ARichard Mutzman=0ABSAE, MSAE=0AN399RM=0A-=0AMessage: 5=0A
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:55:04 -0400=0AFrom: Roger Rowlett <rrowlett@colga
te.edu>=0ATo: grumman-gang(at)mailman.xmission.com=0ASubject: Wing friction an
d speed...=0AMessage-ID: <4FDF4148.3050407(at)colgate.edu>=0AContent-Type: tex
t/plain; charset="us-ascii"=0A=0AOK, I was intrigued by the recent discus
sion about the influence of hull =0Aroughness on flying speed. In particula
r, I was curious about the theory =0Aof sanding boat hulls to gain speed, s
o I decided to ask a championship =0Asmall-boat sailor I know about it. Her
e is is response for improving the =0Aspeed of your favorite Grumman:=0A=0A
"By all means sand your wings [to get more speed]. Use 100 grit=0Apaper and
work down to 60 grit. Then pound the wings with a large=0Aball peen hammer
with extra attention to the leading edges. Then=0Adown a bottle of Jack Da
niels and go flying and you will notice the=0Adifference. Seriously, "wet s
anding" with up to 600 grit wet or dry=0Asandpaper used wet is a common "go
fast" treatment for sailboat=0Ahulls and I have done it on painted wood bo
ats I have raced."=0A=0AI wouldn't recommend altering your Grumman's wings
according to my =0Acolleague's instructions, but in the sailing community s
ome appropriate =0Aapplication of the boundary effect is known and used. Ba
sed on the =0Adeteriorating condition of the paint on my AA-5 upper wing su
rface, I =0Ashould have the fastest model around. :)=0A=0ACheers,=0A=0A____
___________________________________=0ARoger Rowlett=0AAA-5 N7159L=0AKVGC=0A
====================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wing friction and speed... |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Richard:
"Somewhat"!!! I posted the original on how dirt and sanding would lower
the COF and improve the boundary layer. But Roger is total Tong In Cheek.
Busting grains of sand a bit... Come on 100 Grit and 600 Grit.
Our planes are so unbelievably dirty (as most planes are) you would
not believe it. I have flow my plane without the rubber wing seat seal and
without the sump covers (all at the same time) and there was
NO noticeable difference in speed. There is so much drag created by every
sharp corner - Such as between the fuselage and the wing or
the fuselage and the Horz Stab and the Vert Stab and the turtle deck and
the dorsal fin and the turtle deck and how about the gaping hole and its
counterbalance weight. Want to reduce drag? Work on those! And every
round object such as Gary mentioned (VOR ANT) produces four (4) times the
drag as the same size FLAT object would. So, if you want your plane to
look pretty - Go wash & wax it, we'll all go Oooo and Ahhhhh after you
park. But, forget the Pilot Induced Ballistic Speed (BS) about gains. Oh,
one more speed area - Reduce your vertical step length by 3" and that will
take the step out of the clean air and into the dirty air around the body.
"A 1/4 of a MPH here and a 1/4 of a MPH there and sooner or later you are
Super Sonic" Bob Gibson
Barry
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:57 AM, Richard Mutzman wrote:
> All:
>
> The visousity of the fluid, the velocity of that fluid over the surface,
> and the length of the surface (ie Reynolds Number) are a major players here
> in how the boundry layer behaves. Before sanding or dimpling your wings, I
> would recommend you do some serious reading on boundary layer theory for
> compressible fluids.
>
> PS- I know Roger's response is somewhat tongue and cheek we applied to
> airplane wings.
>
> Richard Mutzman
> BSAE, MSAE
> N399RM
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:55:04 -0400
> From: Roger Rowlett <rrowlett(at)colgate.edu>
> To: grumman-gang(at)mailman.xmission.com
> Subject: Wing friction and speed...
> Message-ID: <4FDF4148.3050407(at)colgate.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> OK, I was intrigued by the recent discussion about the influence of hull
> roughness on flying speed. In particular, I was curious about the theory
> of sanding boat hulls to gain speed, so I decided to ask a championship
> small-boat sailor I know about it. Here is is response for improving the
> speed of your favorite Grumman:
>
> "By all means sand your wings [to get more speed]. Use 100 grit
> paper and work down to 60 grit. Then pound the wings with a large
> ball peen hammer with extra attention to the leading edges. Then
> down a bottle of Jack Daniels and go flying and you will notice the
> difference. Seriously, "wet sanding" with up to 600 grit wet or dry
> sandpaper used wet is a common "go fast" treatment for sailboat
> hulls and I have done it on painted wood boats I have raced."
>
> I wouldn't recommend altering your Grumman's wings according to my
> colleague's instructions, but in the sailing community some appropriate
> application of the boundary effect is known and used. Based on the
> deteriorating condition of the paint on my AA-5 upper wing surface, I
> should have the fastest model around. :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> _______________________________________
> Roger Rowlett
> AA-5 N7159L
> KVGC
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wings and things |
| From: | Richard Mutzman <rcmutz(at)msn.com> |
Guys,
I agree with you both on all accounts. Lots of dirty air around a Grumman, and
areas that could be cleaned up.
Btw... I meant to send this to Grumman Gang not Team Grumman.
Richard
Sent from my ipad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: wings and things |
It was fun to read it. -=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From
: Richard Mutzman =0ATo: Team Grumman =0ASent: Friday, June 22, 2012 2:29 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-L
hard Mutzman =0A=0AGuys,=0A=0AI agree with you both on all
accounts. Lots of dirty air around a Grumman, and areas that could be clean
ed up. =0A=0ABtw...- I meant to send this to Grumman Gang not Team Grumma
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wings and things |
| From: | "rcmutz" <rcmutz(at)msn.com> |
Yep. As long as you didn't go and dimple your leading edges.
Btw Gary, the fiberglass glareshield looks great with the powdercoated metal overlay.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376441#376441
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: wings and things |
Thanks. -=0A=0AWe'll be transferring the overlays, instruments, glareshie
ld and eyebrow from the AA1B with the bad cam into the owners (new to him)
74 Traveler. -The previous owner of the AA1B put a LOT of money into the
interior. -Too much to let go easily. -=0A=0AI'll post pics when it's d
one.=0AGary=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: rcmutz <rcmut
z(at)msn.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, June 23,
2012 10:32 AM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: wings and things=0A =0A-->
TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "rcmutz" =0A=0AYep. As
long as you didn't go and dimple your leading edges. =0A=0ABtw Gary, the fi
berglass glareshield looks great with the powdercoated metal overlay.=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/view
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | AAiB parts for sale |
Lots of parts. -Call or write if you're looking for something.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
What the diameter of the spar is at the wing attach point?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | What's wrong with this picture? |
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What's wrong with this picture? |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Gee, could it be that the battery box is up-side down?
Must have been one hell of a lot of turbulence.
Barry
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 9:02 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Spar diameter |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Gary:
I can give you that number tomorrow... From an AA5.
Barry
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> What the diameter of the spar is at the wing attach point?
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What's wrong with this picture? |
Right mag was timed at 20 and left mag was timed at 30. -I guess on the a
verage it was 25.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: FLYaDIV
E =0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday
, June 24, 2012 6:28 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: What's wrong with
this picture?=0A =0A=0AGee, could it be that the battery box is up-side dow
n?=0A=0AMust have been one hell of a lot of-turbulence.=0A=0ABarry=0A=0A
=0AOn Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 9:02 PM, Gary Vogt wrote
=====================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Hodo <bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spar diameter |
Gary, it looked to be between 6.6" and 6.7" so I measured the circumference
and got exactly 20.9 inches.- Divided by pi you get 6.65267662".- My c
alipers only go to 6.25" so this measurement was done with a tape with mark
ings in tenths of an inch instead of fractions.=0A=0AIf you like I can get
the inside diameter with the calipers, then add the wall thickness twice, b
ut I am thinking the above method is at least as accurate.=0A=0A=0AThat is
the outer circumference of a cheetah center spar.- Since the wings on che
etahs and tigers are interchangeable, the OD should be the same number.-
=0A=0A=0ABob Hodo=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Gary Vo
gt =0ATo: Teamgrumman List =0ASent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 8:03 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List:
Spar diameter=0A =0A=0AWhat the diameter of the spar is at the wing attach
=====================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spar diameter |
Barry, or ?=0A-=0AIf you have a wing, I need:=0A- -1. -the distance
from the center of the spar to the leading edge of the airfoil. -=0A-
-2. -the distance from the center of the spar to the aft edge of the af
t spar (so, the end of the airfoil.) -That would give the overall length
plus the spar location. -=0A- -3. -overall height at the widest par
t of the airfoil=0A- -4. -approximate distance from the highest point
to the center of the spar=0A- -5. -vertical location of the spar wit
h respect to the bottom of the spar.=0A=0AIf you have a flap, I need:=0A-
-1. -overall height and length of the flap.=0A- -2. -the distanc
e from the center of the torque tube to the leading edge.=0A=0AIf you have
an aileron, I need:-=0A- -1. -overall height and length of the aile
ron.=0A- -2. -the distance from the center of the torque tube to the
leading edge.=0A- -3. -approximate location of the beveled trailing e
dge and its height and width.=0A=0AThanks in advance.=0AGary=0A=0A=0A=0A___
_____________________________=0A From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>=0ATo:
teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 6:30 PM=0ASub
ject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spar diameter=0A =0A=0AGary:=0A=0AI can give yo
u that number tomorrow... -From an AA5.=0A=0ABarry=0A=0A=0AOn Sun, Jun 24
, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A=0AWhat the d
iameter of the spar is at the wing attach point?=0A>st" target="_blank">h
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.
============
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spar diameter |
Thanks. -I'll use 6.65 inches. -That is close enough for what I'm doing
. -=0A=0AGary=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Bob Hodo
=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com" =0ASent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 7:48 PM=0ASubject: Re: Tea
mGrumman-List: Spar diameter=0A =0A=0AGary, it looked to be between 6.6" an
d 6.7" so I measured the circumference and got exactly 20.9 inches.- Divi
ded by pi you get 6.65267662".- My calipers only go to 6.25" so this meas
urement was done with a tape with markings in tenths of an inch instead of
fractions.=0A=0AIf you like I can get the inside diameter with the calipers
, then add the wall thickness twice, but I am thinking the above method is
at least as accurate.=0A=0A=0AThat is the outer circumference of a cheetah
center spar.- Since the wings on cheetahs and tigers are interchangeable,
the OD should be the same number.- =0A=0A=0ABob Hodo=0A=0A=0A___________
_____________________=0A From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: Team
grumman List =0ASent: Sunday, June 24, 201
2 8:03 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: Spar diameter=0A =0A=0AWhat the diam
eter of the spar is at the wing attach point?=0Ah-========
=======================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spar diameter |
I'll use .300 as the wall thickness using a Tiger as a baseline.=0A=0ASo, i
nside diameter is 6.05 inches. -Give or take.=0A=0A=0A___________________
_____________=0A From: Bob Hodo <bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-lis
t(at)matronics.com" =0ASent: Sunday, June 24,
2012 7:48 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spar diameter=0A =0A=0AGary,
it looked to be between 6.6" and 6.7" so I measured the circumference and
got exactly 20.9 inches.- Divided by pi you get 6.65267662".- My calipe
rs only go to 6.25" so this measurement was done with a tape with markings
in tenths of an inch instead of fractions.=0A=0AIf you like I can get the i
nside diameter with the calipers, then add the wall thickness twice, but I
am thinking the above method is at least as accurate.=0A=0A=0AThat is the o
uter circumference of a cheetah center spar.- Since the wings on cheetahs
and tigers are interchangeable, the OD should be the same number.- =0A
=0A=0ABob Hodo=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Gary Vogt
=0ATo: Teamgrumman List =0ASent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 8:03 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: Sp
ar diameter=0A =0A=0AWhat the diameter of the spar is at the wing attach po
int?=0Ah-======================
=========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Spar diameter |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Gary:
The wing is at one location while the flap and aerilon are at the AP. I
will be going to the AP in a day or so. Can you wait?
Barry
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 11:05 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> Barry, or ?
>
> If you have a wing, I need:
> 1. the distance from the center of the spar to the leading edge of the
> airfoil.
> 2. the distance from the center of the spar to the aft edge of the aft
> spar (so, the end of the airfoil.) That would give the overall length plus
> the spar location.
> 3. overall height at the widest part of the airfoil
> 4. approximate distance from the highest point to the center of the
> spar
> 5. vertical location of the spar with respect to the bottom of the
> spar.
>
> If you have a flap, I need:
> 1. overall height and length of the flap.
> 2. the distance from the center of the torque tube to the leading edge.
>
> If you have an aileron, I need:
> 1. overall height and length of the aileron.
> 2. the distance from the center of the torque tube to the leading edge.
> 3. approximate location of the beveled trailing edge and its height
> and width.
>
> Thanks in advance.
> Gary
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* FLYaDIVE
> *To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 24, 2012 6:30 PM
> *Subject:* Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spar diameter
>
> Gary:
>
> I can give you that number tomorrow... From an AA5.
>
> Barry
>
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
> What the diameter of the spar is at the wing attach point?
>
> *
>
> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Hodo <bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spar diameter |
This is the data from my original spar, an extra cheetah spar, and the tige
r spar in my plane now:=0A=0AOriginal spar =C2-=C2- .255 to .260 wall
=0Athickness=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
...
.46.10 lbs=0AExtra=0AAA5A spar=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2- .255 to .260 wall=0Athickness
46.
35 lbs=0A=0ATiger=0Aspar=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- .305 to
.310 wall thickness=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
52.05 lbs=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________
=0A From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list@matroni
cs.com" =0ASent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 10:
09 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spar diameter=0A =0A=0AI'll use .300
as the wall thickness using a Tiger as a baseline.=0A=0ASo, inside diamete
r is 6.05 inches. =C2-Give or take.=0A=0A=0A_____________________________
___=0A From: Bob Hodo <bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list@matronic
s.com" =0ASent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 7:48
PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spar diameter=0A =0A=0AGary, it looked
to be between 6.6" and 6.7" so I measured the circumference and got exactl
y 20.9 inches.=C2- Divided by pi you get 6.65267662".=C2- My calipers o
nly go to 6.25" so this measurement was done with a tape with markings in t
enths of an inch instead of fractions.=0A=0AIf you like I can get the insid
e diameter with the calipers, then add the wall thickness twice, but I am t
hinking the above method is at least as accurate.=0A=0A=0AThat is the outer
circumference of a cheetah center spar.=C2- Since the wings on cheetahs
and tigers are interchangeable, the OD should be the same number.=C2- =0A
=0A=0ABob Hodo=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Gary Vogt
=0ATo: Teamgrumman List =0ASent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 8:03 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: Sp
ar diameter=0A =0A=0AWhat the diameter of the spar is at the wing attach po
int?=0Ah-======================
============= =0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/N
====
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Improve Fit of Upper Cowl |
| From: | 923TE <923te(at)att.net> |
Barry S.,
=46rom your pictures it looks to me that the nose bowl does not fit very wel
l. Maybe it was messed up when they did the split on it. It looks like the n
ose bowl fit could be improved. It will mess up the paint job but since it's
fiberglass it can be made to fit better with some fiberglass work and a lot
of effort.
Pictures attached below. Note the horizontal seam where the upper cowl door m
eets the lower cowl side. Extend an imaginary line on this seam toward the p
rop. You should see that the nose bowl seam is no where near that imaginary l
ine. It is down significantly and it is not parallel. I think this is the c
ause of your gap on the top corner where the cowl door should rest on the no
se bowl corner.
In addition, another source of the misalignment is that there is no spacing a
t the nose bowl seam.
When the nose bowl is cut for the split STC there is material lost with the c
ut. The pictures show that there is no gap at the cut. The cut surfaces were
laid on top of each other without any gap and the screws were placed to hol
d it there. This would be where to start a fix. You might close your gap at t
he corner by moving the screw holes to hold a gap here. As a result the seam
will have a gap. You could fill the gap with epoxy if it gets unsightly.
After the nose bowl is fit properly if there is still a gap one could build u
p the fiberglass in the corer where the problem gap is. You could also use a
stinker on the aluminum upper cowl door in that corner if you think it has b
een stretched. But that is the last resort as it may crack.
Regards,
Ned
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spar diameter |
yep. -No hurry.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: FLYaDIV
E =0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Monday
, June 25, 2012 3:33 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spar diameter=0A
=0A=0AGary:=0A=0AThe wing is at one location while the flap and aerilon are
at the AP. -I will be going to the AP in a day or so. -Can you wait?
=0A=0ABarry=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 11:05 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A=0ABarry, or ?=0A>-=0A>If you have a wing, I nee
d:=0A>- -1. -the distance from the center of the spar to the leading
edge of the airfoil. -=0A>- -2. -the distance from the center of th
e spar to the aft edge of the aft spar (so, the end of the airfoil.) -Tha
t would give the overall length plus the spar location. -=0A>- -3.
-overall height at the widest part of the airfoil=0A>- -4. -approxi
mate distance from the highest point to the center of the spar=0A>- -5.
-vertical location of the spar with respect to the bottom of the spar.
=0A>=0A>=0A>If you have a flap, I need:=0A>- -1. -overall height and
length of the flap.=0A>- -2. -the distance from the center of the tor
que tube to the leading edge.=0A>=0A>=0A>If you have an aileron, I need:-
=0A>- -1. -overall height and length of the aileron.=0A>- -2. -
the distance from the center of the torque tube to the leading edge.=0A>-
-3. -approximate location of the beveled trailing edge and its height
and width.=0A>=0A>=0A>Thanks in advance.=0A>Gary=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>___
_____________________________=0A> From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>=0A>To
: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0A>Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 6:30 PM=0A
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spar diameter=0A> =0A>=0A>Gary:=0A>=0A>=0A>
I can give you that number tomorrow... -From an AA5.=0A>=0A>=0A>Barry=0A>
=0A>=0A>On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Gary Vogt
wrote:=0A>=0A>What the diameter of the spar is at the wing attach point?=0A
>>st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigato
r?TeamGrumman-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.matroni
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Improve Fit of Upper Cowl |
| From: | "bkspero" <bkspero(at)gmail.com> |
Now you're getting my hopes up, again.... Gary had convinced me that either I
be happy with what I have, or buy a Jaguar cowl. So I decided to be happy.
Seriously, I see what you mean. I had gotten a private email from another person
before I posted the photos and he speculated on this cause. I think his words
included something like "...instead of using a thin kerf sawblade, some mechanics
use a chainsaw and remove way to much material. Then when they reassemble
it gaps show up in the cowl corners...he was exaggerating but makes the point".
I'll ask my mechanic what it would take to adjust the screws to insert
a ca. 1/16" gap. That could be enough to correct the fit in the front, as it
is only a problem on one side and by only a small amount. He would need, I think,
to adjust the position of the upper cowl about 1/8"-1/4" towards to passenger
side to even out the fit, though. Don't know if that is possible. I presume
that a 1/16" gap wouldn't cause any functional issues. As you can see,
the plane is serviceable, but not a showpiece. So I don't think I'll even see
that small a space in the split.
Still leaves the larger gaps in the back. Guess I will continue to live with those.
Thanks for the input.
Barry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376630#376630
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Improve Fit of Upper Cowl |
The back of the cowling: -A lot of cowlings don't fit well in the back; m
ostly from damaged doublers on the cowling. -Spot welds break, the double
r cracks, you name it. -You can buy another upper cowling, have it instal
led, strip it, alumi-prep it, prime it and paint it the base color, install
it, line up the stripes, remove it and paint the stripes. -Odds are it w
on't match the rest of the plane . . . but, it MIGHT fit better.=0A=0AThe f
ront of the cowling and the nose bowl: -If you just do the nose bowl, you
might want to consider where the stripes are. -If you open up the gap on
the cowling, the stripes won't line up. -Then you'll have to get the nos
e bowl repainted. -You could get another nose bowl, you could get a LoPre
sti nose bowl (RJ, here's your chance, jump in at any time). -Regardless
of which way choose, some painting is involved.=0A=0AYou're using a dollar
to chase a penny.=0A=0AOn-the-other-hand, it is your dollar. -And, puttin
g money back into circulation does help the economy. -So, who knows, the
dollar you spend could help your mechanic buy groceries. -That, in turn,
helps the kid bagging groceries. -It helps the teller who rings it up.
-It helps the store owner. -It helps the truck driver bringing grocerie
s to the market. -It helps the toll both operators who check the weight o
f the trucks. -It helps the petroleum industry for the fuel used by the t
ruck. -It helps the truck driver. -It helps everyone involved with the
truck. -It helps the grower in California who owns the orchard. -It hel
ps the Mexican picking the fruit. -He helps his family in Mexico. -They
produce drugs that end up on the streets of New Jersey. -Which in turn,
. . . .-=0A=0AYou could single handedly change many lives. -Or, you cou
ld just fly your plane.=0A=0AThank you, everyone, for letting me express my
thought process. -It was really a lot of fun. -=0A=0A=0A______________
__________________=0A From: bkspero <bkspero(at)gmail.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-l
ist(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 6:12 AM=0ASubject: TeamGr
umman-List: Re: Improve Fit of Upper Cowl=0A =0A--> TeamGrumman-List messag
e posted by: "bkspero" =0A=0ANow you're getting my hopes
up, again....- Gary had convinced me that either I be happy with what I
have, or buy a Jaguar cowl.- So I decided to be happy.=0A=0ASeriously, I
see what you mean.- I had gotten a private email from another person befo
re I posted the photos and he speculated on this cause.- I think his word
s included something like "...instead of using a thin kerf sawblade, some m
echanics use a chainsaw and remove way to much material.- Then when they
reassemble it gaps show up in the cowl corners...he was exaggerating but ma
kes the point".- I'll ask my mechanic what it would take to adjust the sc
rews to insert a ca. 1/16" gap.- That could be enough to correct the fit
in the front, as it is only a problem on one side and by only a small amoun
t.- He would need, I think, to adjust the position of the upper cowl abou
t 1/8"-1/4" towards to passenger side to even out the fit, though.- Don't
know if that is possible.- I presume that a 1/16" gap wouldn't cause any
functional issues.- As you can see, the plane is serviceable, but not a
showpiece.- So I don't think I'll even see that small a space
in the split.=0A=0AStill leaves the larger gaps in the back.- Guess I wi
ll continue to live with those.=0A=0AThanks for the input.=0A=0ABarry=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/view
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Airport Bum <aa5_driver(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Airport BBQ special offer |
Team Grumman,=0A=0A-=0ASummer time is here and it time to bust out the gr
ill for=0Athe annual airport bbq.- =0A-=0ADon't have a grill you say,
- I have a special deal for the Gang.- We are now a regional stocking d
ealer for Saffire Kamado Grills.- =0AYou can see details here:=0A=0A- h
ttp://www.saffiregrills.com/Saffire_Brochure.pdf .- =0A=0A=0AI am offerin
g special discounted pricing for=0Afellow "team members" .- Due to minimu
m advertized pricing, I cannot advertise the low=0Aprice, but if you are in
terested, contact me and I will Give you special=0Apricing including discou
nted shipping to your door.=0A=0A=0ASaffire Kamado grills are easy to use,
efficient and=0Aallow you to grill or smoke with ease.- Saffire=0AGrills
are unique in that they have all stainless steel hardware, cast=0Astainless
steel top vent, bands, intake, and grill surface.- These grills are heav
y- but will fit in an AA5 if you'd like to fly in and pick one up, if you
have an AA1, I'm sorry I think you would be over gross unless you can teac
h=0Athe grill to fly.- If your interested,=0AI'd be happy to answer any q
uestions.=0A=0AFly Safe=0AKevin- 36 1- 53 3- 62 88=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Smith <haveblue1(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Any amusing annuals? |
Gary,
Any amusing annuals to regale us with?
Best.
Bruce
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Any amusing annuals? |
Haven't really had anything interesting. -I've posted some pics on Facebo
ok. -But, that's about it. -=0A=0A=0A________________________________
=0A From: Bruce Smith <haveblue1(at)mac.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.
com =0ASent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 3:50 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: A
th =0A=0AGary,=0A=0AAny amusing annuals to regale us wit
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
A while back, I mentions that Brooks-"I grew up with a 4 foot Starrett ru
ler in my hand"-Margolien had said the Jaguar cowling was too wide and th
at he was 'trimming' them to fit. -Over the weekend I had the opportunity
to compare an AG5B cowling to a Jaguar cowling. -You can see from the pi
cs they are EXACTLY the same size. -Not almost, but exactly.=0A=0AI had t
hought about moving the joggle on the cowling to make it narrower after Bro
oks said my cowling was 1/4 inch wider than the aluminum cowling and that h
e had to make them fit. -I think I'll leave the Jaguar cowling alone.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
Last week, Bruce asked if I had any stories. -Just one.=0A=0AI did an ann
ual on a Tiger a couple of weeks ago. -Someone had RTVd the intake duct t
o the engine mount. -Now, you may not know this, but, RTV will cause rust
anywhere it touches steel, paint or no paint. -=0A=0APlease keep it off
the engine mount.-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
Barry, this one is for you because you have so much more trivia knowledge a
bout electronics than most. =C2-If anyone else knows the answer, be answe
r also.=0A=0AI was thinking about the electronic ignition system I installe
d on both Dean's and Larry's planes a few months back. =C2-Both of them w
ould have benefitted from having separate toggle switches for each mag. =C2
-That would make the mag checks a little simpler. =C2-=0A=0AAnd, then t
he trusty Avionics Master. =C2-I think making a single point failure in a
plane is stupid, but, what do I know. =C2-=0A=0ASo, I got to thinking (h
ere we go again), on a cars ignition switch,=C2-=0A=0A=A2 the first
position turns on the battery. =C2-( listen to the radio etc.)=0A
=A2 the second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the electri
cal system.=0A=A2 the third position starts the car. =C2-During the
start, the radios are dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.=0A
=0AMy questions are:=0A=0A(Q1) Why not incorporate separate toggles for the
mags and an ignition switch that behaves just like a cars ignition switch?
=0A=0AThat would simplify the entire process.=0A=0A(Q2) Is there a switch t
hat would work that is easy to convert to a planes requirements?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hello Gary:
That is exactly what I fly in the RV6.
Toggle Master - Toggle ALT - Toggle L Mag - Toggle R Mag
(Electronic Ignition)
Now, I went a little out there with the switches.
I used Heavy Duty DPST (Double Poll Single Throw) switches.
Heavy duty so they would have a nice solid SNAP when they are turned on and
off and would not move without noticing (works great with a gloved hand).
These are the large size switch that require about a 3/8" hole for mounting
and has a very high Amperage rating 15 to 20 Amps.
The DP so there is a huge amount of internal redundancy in the contact
ability.
I just tied each of the sides of the switch together.
As well as having Silver Contacts.
I know, way over kill, since all they do is short out the Mag to ground and
turn relays On & Off. And rubber boots are also available.
Lots of advantages - And SIMPLE.
Your question 2 "(Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to
convert to a planes requirements?"
I gather that you want it just like a cars switch system (OFF - Master ON-
Alt ON - Radios ON)? But you are NOT going to connect the MAGS to the same
switch, is that correct?
Then what if you want to have the RADIOS ON with the ALT OFF? <-- As in a
ALT failure and Radios still functioning (Running off Battery Power)?
The next thing that comes to mind is ALL the Repetitive Training we have
all gone through over the years. We have certain things infused into our
brains. The pilots would have to relearn things that are a bit different
than our norm and what has become almost a muscle response.
If you interested in this type of switch I will search one out for you. It
would more than likely be a ROTARY switch with an enclosure. Would you
want it Key Activated?
Barry
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> Barry, this one is for you because you have so much more trivia knowledge
> about electronics than most. If anyone else knows the answer, be answer
> also.
>
> I was thinking about the electronic ignition system I installed on both
> Dean's and Larry's planes a few months back. Both of them would have
> benefitted from having separate toggle switches for each mag. That would
> make the mag checks a little simpler.
>
> And, then the trusty Avionics Master. I think making a single point
> failure in a plane is stupid, but, what do I know.
>
> So, I got to thinking (here we go again), on a cars ignition switch,
>
> - the first position turns on the battery. ( listen to the radio etc.)
> - the second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the
> electrical system.
> - the third position starts the car. During the start, the radios are
> dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.
>
> My questions are:
>
> (Q1) Why not incorporate separate toggles for the mags and an ignition
> switch that behaves just like a cars ignition switch?
>
> That would simplify the entire process.
>
> (Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to convert to a plane
s
> requirements?
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
Barry,=C2-=0A=0ALet me write it out again. =C2-Maybe you read it so fas
t the first time that you missed the details.=0A=0A=A2 the first posi
tion turns on the battery. =C2-( listen to the radio etc.)=0A=A2 th
e second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the electrical sy
stem.=0A=A2 the third position starts the car. =C2-During the start
, the radios are dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.=0A=0AThe
mags do not need to be a part of the switch. =C2-The mags would then be
just two separate toggles.=0A=0AJust as in a car, the radios can come on wi
th the first position. =C2-Alternator with the second. =C2-So, you can
turn on the radios just like you would with a split master without turning
on the whole system. =C2-If an old GM ignition switch would work, then I'
ll look for that. =C2-It needs to be keyed. =C2-The key, then, is requi
red to turn on the radio. =C2-Just like your car.=0A=0AGary=0APS, the ALT
side of the Master switch is nothing more than adding power to the field c
ircuit. =C2-In case of an alternator failure, turn the key to the first d
etent; =C2-i.e., radios. =C2-If you wanted to change the emergency proc
edure, just pull the field breaker. =C2-=0A=0A=0A________________________
________=0A From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matr
onics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:11 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman
-List: Question=0A =0A=0AHello Gary:=0A=0AThat is=C2-exactly=C2-what I
fly in the RV6. =C2-=0AToggle Master - Toggle ALT - Toggle L Mag - Toggle
R Mag (Electronic=C2-Ignition)=0ANow, I went a little out there with the
switches. =C2-=0AI used Heavy Duty DPST (Double Poll Single Throw) switc
hes.=0AHeavy duty so they would have a nice solid SNAP when they are turned
on and off and would not move without noticing (works great with a gloved
hand). =C2-=0AThese are the large size switch that require about a 3/8" h
ole for mounting and has a very high Amperage rating 15 to 20 Amps.=0AThe D
P so there is a huge amount of internal=C2-redundancy=C2-in the contact
ability.=C2-=0AI just tied each of the sides of the switch=C2-together
.=0AAs well as having Silver Contacts.=0AI know, way over kill, since all t
hey do is short out the Mag to ground and turn relays On & Off. =C2-And r
ubber boots are also=C2-available.=0ALots of advantages - And SIMPLE.=0A
=0AYour question 2 "(Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to
convert to a planes requirements?"=0AI gather that you want it just like a
cars switch system (OFF - Master ON- Alt ON - Radios ON)? =C2-But you are
NOT going to connect the MAGS to the same switch, is that correct?=0AThen
what if you want to have the RADIOS ON with the ALT OFF? <-- As in a ALT fa
ilure and Radios still functioning (Running off Battery Power)?=0AThe next
thing that comes to mind is ALL the=C2-Repetitive=C2-Training we have a
ll gone through over the years. =C2-We have=C2-certain=C2-things infu
sed into our brains. =C2-The pilots would have to relearn things that are
a bit different than our norm and what has become almost a muscle=C2-res
ponse. =C2-=0A=0AIf you interested in this type of switch I will search o
ne out for you. =C2-It would more than likely be a=C2-ROTARY=C2-switc
h with an=C2-enclosure. =C2-Would you want it Key=C2-Activated?=0A=0A
=0ABarry=0A=0A=0A=C2-=C2-=0A=0A=0AOn Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Gary
Vogt wrote:=0A=0ABarry, this one is for you because
you have so much more trivia knowledge about electronics than most. =C2-
If anyone else knows the answer, be answer also.=0A>=0A>=0A>I was thinking
about the electronic ignition system I installed on both Dean's and Larry's
planes a few months back. =C2-Both of them would have benefitted from ha
ving separate toggle switches for each mag. =C2-That would make the mag c
hecks a little simpler. =C2-=0A>=0A>=0A>And, then the trusty Avionics Mas
ter. =C2-I think making a single point failure in a plane is stupid, but,
what do I know. =C2-=0A>=0A>=0A>So, I got to thinking (here we go again)
, on a cars ignition switch,=C2-=0A>=0A>=0A>=A2 the first position
turns on the battery. =C2-( listen to the radio etc.)=0A>=A2 the se
cond position turns on the alternator and the rest of the electrical system
.=0A>=A2 the third position starts the car. =C2-During the start, t
he radios are dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.=0A>=0A>=0A>
My questions are:=0A>=0A>=0A>(Q1) Why not incorporate separate toggles for
the mags and an ignition switch that behaves just like a cars ignition swit
ch?=0A>=0A>=0A>That would simplify the entire process.=0A>=0A>=0A>(Q2) Is t
here a switch that would work that is easy to convert to a planes requireme
nts?=0A>st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumma
n-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contr
=======================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | AG5B upper cowling |
I have two AG5B upper cowlings.=0A=0AOne was a prototype and is made of fib
erglass. -The other is a production carbon fiber part.=0A=0AIf you need o
ne or want one as a spare, I'll sell both for $1000 or any reasonable offer
. -=0A=0AGary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
Under the heading of way too much time on my hands and a curiosity that won
't let me leave this topic alone, I've been converting to CAD the dimension
s of several NACA airfoils and matching them to the Grumman airfoil. -Goi
ng on the premiss that the original AA1 had a 64-415 airfoil, I laid out a
drawing to match it as close as possible. -=0A=0AThe original AA1 airfoil
is close to the 64-415, but it isn't really a 64-415. -Using that same a
irfoil, and drooping the nose so that the nose was parallel to the "0" wate
rline and then extending that line to the spar, well, let's just say, it's
an interesting airfoil, but nothing close to a 64-415.=0A=0A=0AThen, adding
the flaps and ailerons from a Tiger and you have a completely new airfoil.
-It's skinnier than a 64-415 and fatter than a 64-412. -So, I algebrai
cally added the points of both the 64-415 and 64-412 airfoils and divided b
y 2. -In theory, a 64-413.5. -This airfoil is damn close to the Grumman
airfoil with the exception of the flat bottom from the nose to the spar.
-However, the spar location makes it a 63.5-413.5 or something similar.
=0A=0AThat's why I wanted some good locations. -I still need them if you
have the time and patience.=0A=0AFrom the looks of it, the Grumman airfoil
actually a pretty decent airfoil. -Much thinner than the -415 and a longe
r upper surface with a nice gentle curve. -The -415 has a rather steep cu
rve past the 40% chord peak. -=0A=0AComparing it to a Clark-Y one needs t
o begin making assumptions on installed incident angles and the fact that t
he -Y is flatter on the bottom.=0A=0AInteresting. -=0A=0AFeedback appreci
ated.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n76lima(at)mindspring.com |
Yeah, no reason that can't work. At least on an experimental. Bet you have trouble
getting the FAA to approve an antique GM ignition switch.
And the key on the Master, Alternator and Starter isn't as effective at theft prevention
as on the mags.
One could flip the mag switches on and hand prop it, fly away with a handheld radio.
Granted, one could open the cowl and pop the P-leads and then flip the Master on
and hit the Start button on a Grumman...
--Bob Steward
the first position turns on the battery. ( listen to the radio etc.) the second
position turns on the alternator and the rest of the electrical system. the
third position starts the car. During the start, the radios are dropped off-line
to prevent damage to the radios.
The mags do not need to be a part of the switch. The mags would then be just two
separate toggles.
Just as in a car, the radios can come on with the first position. Alternator with
the second. So, you can turn on the radios just like you would with a split
master without turning on the
whole system. If an old GM ignition switch would work, then I'll look for that.
It needs to be keyed. The key, then, is required to turn on the radio. Just
like your car.
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n76lima(at)mindspring.com |
| Subject: | Re: Grumman airfoil |
You don't mention changing the radius of the leading edge on the AA-1A and later
airfoil in your description of your efforts to lay out the unique Grumman airfoil.
It seems quite a bit larger radius than the AA-1 nee 64-415 airfoil.
Harry Riblett did some work on the NACA data and found issues with a wave or ripple
in the upper surface based on the published tables. This inconsistency causes
flow disruptions (loss of laminar flow earlier than expected and other issues
with Stall and the Hysteresis loop of air attachment after stall. The first
paragraph of this paper gives a brief description of what aerodynamic hysteresis
is and what it does.
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~huhui/paper/2008/AIAA-2008-0315.pdf
It is a near certainty that the AA-1 airfoil has that same inconsistency, and since
the AA-1A was done "on the hangar floor" from the AA-1 profiles, it seems
likely that it has the same issues that the donor airfoil had. Harry's book
"GA Airfoils" is very interesting reading for those that are wanting to understand
airfoil design. Highly recommended.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/bvpages/ga_airfoils.php
Gary, you got access to one of the CFD programs to "blow" on your reconstructed
airfoil? There are a number of questions that need to be answered, mostly revolving
around the slope of the forward camber and how it feeds into the large
radius nose.
This paper is offered for those that don't know what we are talking about, and
how Eppler and CFD have changed the entire concept of airfoil design from carving
models and blowing on them, to designing the flow and pressure distribution
you want, and then calculating the shape that would MAKE that happen.
http://www.airfoils.com/design.pdf
--Bob Steward
[Gary] Under the heading of way too much time on my hands and a curiosity that
won't let me leave this topic alone, I've been converting to CAD the dimensions
of several NACA airfoils and matching them to the Grumman airfoil. Going on
the premiss that the original AA1 had a 64-415 airfoil, I laid out a drawing
to match it as close as possible.
The original AA1 airfoil is close to the 64-415, but it isn't really a 64-415.
Using that same airfoil, and drooping the nose so that the nose was parallel
to the "0" waterline and then extending that line to the spar, well, let's just
say, it's an interesting airfoil, but nothing close to a 64-415.
Then, adding the flaps and ailerons from a Tiger and you have a completely new
airfoil. It's skinnier than a 64-415 and fatter
than a 64-412. So, I algebraically added the points of both the 64-415 and 64-412
airfoils and divided by 2. In theory, a 64-413.5. This airfoil is damn
close to the Grumman airfoil with the exception of the flat bottom from the nose
to the spar. However, the spar location makes it a 63.5-413.5 or something
similar.
That's why I wanted some good locations. I still need them if you have the time
and patience.
>From the looks of it, the Grumman airfoil actually a pretty decent airfoil. Much
thinner than the -415 and a longer upper surface with a nice gentle curve.
The -415 has a rather steep curve past the 40% chord peak.
Comparing it to a Clark-Y one needs to begin making assumptions on installed incident
angles and the fact that the -Y is flatter on the bottom.
Interesting.
Feedback appreciated.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Smith <haveblue1(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grumman airfoil |
Gary,
Just curious. What points on a Grumman... say AA-5 .... determine or make up the
waterline? I understand waterline as it applies to boats, but not airplanes.
Thanks and Happy 4th to all.
Bruce
On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:59 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> Under the heading of way too much time on my hands and a curiosity that won't
let me leave this topic alone, I've been converting to CAD the dimensions of
several NACA airfoils and matching them to the Grumman airfoil. Going on the
premiss that the original AA1 had a 64-415 airfoil, I laid out a drawing to match
it as close as possible.
>
> The original AA1 airfoil is close to the 64-415, but it isn't really a 64-415.
Using that same airfoil, and drooping the nose so that the nose was parallel
to the "0" waterline and then extending that line to the spar, well, let's just
say, it's an interesting airfoil, but nothing close to a 64-415.
>
> Then, adding the flaps and ailerons from a Tiger and you have a completely new
airfoil. It's skinnier than a 64-415 and fatter than a 64-412. So, I algebraically
added the points of both the 64-415 and 64-412 airfoils and divided by
2. In theory, a 64-413.5. This airfoil is damn close to the Grumman airfoil
with the exception of the flat bottom from the nose to the spar. However, the
spar location makes it a 63.5-413.5 or something similar.
>
> That's why I wanted some good locations. I still need them if you have the time
and patience.
>
> From the looks of it, the Grumman airfoil actually a pretty decent airfoil.
Much thinner than the -415 and a longer upper surface with a nice gentle curve.
The -415 has a rather steep curve past the 40% chord peak.
>
> Comparing it to a Clark-Y one needs to begin making assumptions on installed
incident angles and the fact that the -Y is flatter on the bottom.
>
> Interesting.
>
> Feedback appreciated.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Grumman airfoil |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Bruce:
Waterline is the same thing as Cord. The imaginary straight-line from the
Leading Edge Tip (Bulge) to the Training Edge Tip or Aerilon Training Edge
when in a neutral position.
I do not know how waterline came into play with planes, though may of the
terms for aviation came from sailing and the sea. In this case I would
guess it has more to do with the Egyptians and the building of things like
the Pyramids. There is a tool know as an Egyptian Water Level. Today it
would be made out of a flexible clear plastic tube, filled almost to the
top with water (at each end). Since water seeks its own level - You could
put the water level at the wings leading edge - Then move the other end of
the tube up and down (water level) to measure the location of the wings
training edge. Sight from water level (waterline) to water level
(waterline) and you have the Cord a.k.a. Waterline. Water levels are
pretty cool, they can be used to set heights/elevations over long distances
and around corners - Especially in areas where you can not run a straight
line, like finding Center-line from Firewall to Tailcone.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:
> Gary,
>
> Just curious. What points on a Grumman... say AA-5 .... determine or make
> up the waterline? I understand waterline as it applies to boats, but not
> airplanes.
>
> Thanks and Happy 4th to all.
>
> Bruce
>
>
> On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:59 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
> Under the heading of way too much time on my hands and a curiosity that
> won't let me leave this topic alone, I've been converting to CAD the
> dimensions of several NACA airfoils and matching them to the Grumman
> airfoil. Going on the premiss that the original AA1 had a 64-415 airfoil,
> I laid out a drawing to match it as close as possible.
>
> The original AA1 airfoil is close to the 64-415, but it isn't really a
> 64-415. Using that same airfoil, and drooping the nose so that the nose
> was parallel to the "0" waterline and then extending that line to the spar,
> well, let's just say, it's an interesting airfoil, but nothing close to a
> 64-415.
>
> Then, adding the flaps and ailerons from a Tiger and you have a completely
> new airfoil. It's skinnier than a 64-415 and fatter than a 64-412. So, I
> algebraically added the points of both the 64-415 and 64-412 airfoils and
> divided by 2. In theory, a 64-413.5. This airfoil is damn close to the
> Grumman airfoil with the exception of the flat bottom from the nose to the
> spar. However, the spar location makes it a 63.5-413.5 or something
> similar.
>
> That's why I wanted some good locations. I still need them if you have
> the time and patience.
>
> From the looks of it, the Grumman airfoil actually a pretty decent
> airfoil. Much thinner than the -415 and a longer upper surface with a nice
> gentle curve. The -415 has a rather steep curve past the 40% chord peak.
>
> Comparing it to a Clark-Y one needs to begin making assumptions on
> installed incident angles and the fact that the -Y is flatter on the bottom.
>
> Interesting.
>
> Feedback appreciated.
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
AHhhhhh OK Gary:
I did have the sequence out of order. Your sequence:
OFF
Radio ON
Your notes did not mention Master but I guess that would be next - Master O
N
ALT ON
START - Radios OFF - Would you want to turn ALT OFF during START?
Then a SPRING RETURN just like a car back to ON for Radios - Master & ALT
all ON.
Yes, it could be done. Finding a quality switch to do the job will
be difficult BUT! I'll look.
Gary, did you want to use a relay for the Radio operation?
Barry
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 10:55 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> Barry,
>
> Let me write it out again. Maybe you read it so fast the first time that
> you missed the details.
>
> - the first position turns on the battery. ( listen to the radio etc.)
> - the second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the
> electrical system.
> - the third position starts the car. During the start, the radios are
> dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.
>
> The mags do not need to be a part of the switch. The mags would then be
> just two separate toggles.
>
> Just as in a car, the radios can come on with the first position.
> Alternator with the second. So, you can turn on the radios just like yo
u
> would with a split master without turning on the whole system. If an old
> GM ignition switch would work, then I'll look for that. It needs to be
> keyed. The key, then, is required to turn on the radio. Just like your
> car.
>
> Gary
> PS, the ALT side of the Master switch is nothing more than adding power t
o
> the field circuit. In case of an alternator failure, turn the key to the
> first detent; i.e., radios. If you wanted to change the emergency
> procedure, just pull the field breaker.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* FLYaDIVE
> *To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:11 PM
> *Subject:* Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question
>
> Hello Gary:
>
> That is exactly what I fly in the RV6.
> Toggle Master - Toggle ALT - Toggle L Mag - Toggle R Mag
> (Electronic Ignition)
> Now, I went a little out there with the switches.
> I used Heavy Duty DPST (Double Poll Single Throw) switches.
> Heavy duty so they would have a nice solid SNAP when they are turned on
> and off and would not move without noticing (works great with a gloved
> hand).
> These are the large size switch that require about a 3/8" hole for
> mounting and has a very high Amperage rating 15 to 20 Amps.
> The DP so there is a huge amount of internal redundancy in the contact
> ability.
> I just tied each of the sides of the switch together.
> As well as having Silver Contacts.
> I know, way over kill, since all they do is short out the Mag to ground
> and turn relays On & Off. And rubber boots are also available.
> Lots of advantages - And SIMPLE.
>
> Your question 2 "(Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to
> convert to a planes requirements?"
> I gather that you want it just like a cars switch system (OFF - Master ON
-
> Alt ON - Radios ON)? But you are NOT going to connect the MAGS to the sa
me
> switch, is that correct?
> Then what if you want to have the RADIOS ON with the ALT OFF? <-- As in a
> ALT failure and Radios still functioning (Running off Battery Power)?
> The next thing that comes to mind is ALL the Repetitive Training we have
> all gone through over the years. We have certain things infused into our
> brains. The pilots would have to relearn things that are a bit different
> than our norm and what has become almost a muscle response.
>
> If you interested in this type of switch I will search one out for you.
> It would more than likely be a ROTARY switch with an enclosure. Would y
ou
> want it Key Activated?
>
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
> Barry, this one is for you because you have so much more trivia knowledge
> about electronics than most. If anyone else knows the answer, be answer
> also.
>
> I was thinking about the electronic ignition system I installed on both
> Dean's and Larry's planes a few months back. Both of them would have
> benefitted from having separate toggle switches for each mag. That would
> make the mag checks a little simpler.
>
> And, then the trusty Avionics Master. I think making a single point
> failure in a plane is stupid, but, what do I know.
>
> So, I got to thinking (here we go again), on a cars ignition switch,
>
> - the first position turns on the battery. ( listen to the radio etc.)
> - the second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the
> electrical system.
> - the third position starts the car. During the start, the radios are
> dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.
>
> My questions are:
>
> (Q1) Why not incorporate separate toggles for the mags and an ignition
> switch that behaves just like a cars ignition switch?
>
> That would simplify the entire process.
>
> (Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to convert to a plane
s
> requirements?
>
> *
>
> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Grumman airfoil |
| From: | Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com> |
Waterline is one of the 3 geometric planes used to define a location on the aircraft.
It is just what you are imagining from your experience with boats... it
is the horizontal plane (parallel to the canopy rails and the ground) that would
appear if the aircraft were partially submerged in water. It is typically
abbreviated "WL" on drawings.
The other 2 planes are Station, the vertical plane parallel to the firewall, which
could be compared to slicing bread, abbreviated "Sta.", and Butt Line, which
is the vertical plane that slices the aircraft fore and aft parallel to the
centerline. There are Right and Left Butt Lines, referencing whether they are
right or left of the centerline, also known as B.L. 0.0, on drawings.
By defining the Station, Water Line, and Butt Line, one can pinpoint any point
on or around the aircraft.
You call the "Station", the "Arm" in your W&B calculations. The Station zero is
a point in space 50.0 inches in front of the firewall, ahead of the spinner.
This allows all stations to be positive (making all calculations positive).
You can see the various Stations and Water Lines in the Structural Repairs section
of the Maintenance Manual.
The other measurement you may commonly see in aircraft construction and repair,
is AC, or "along contour", used to define something that you can easily see and
measure with a ruler, but would devilishly difficult to calculate the Sta.
WL, and BL, due to the curve of the surface in question. Perhaps the top surface
of the wing or a measurement on the cowling.
--Bob Steward
Birmingham, AL
Bruce Smith wrote:
>Gary,
>
>Just curious. What points on a Grumman... say AA-5 .... determine or make up the
waterline? I understand waterline as it applies to boats, but not airplanes.
>
>Thanks and Happy 4th to all.
>
>Bruce
>
>
>On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:59 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
>> Under the heading of way too much time on my hands and a curiosity that won't
let me leave this topic alone, I've been converting to CAD the dimensions of
several NACA airfoils and matching them to the Grumman airfoil. Going on the
premiss that the original AA1 had a 64-415 airfoil, I laid out a drawing to match
it as close as possible.
>>
>> The original AA1 airfoil is close to the 64-415, but it isn't really a 64-415.
Using that same airfoil, and drooping the nose so that the nose was parallel
to the "0" waterline and then extending that line to the spar, well, let's
just say, it's an interesting airfoil, but nothing close to a 64-415.
>>
>> Then, adding the flaps and ailerons from a Tiger and you have a completely new
airfoil. It's skinnier than a 64-415 and fatter than a 64-412. So, I algebraically
added the points of both the 64-415 and 64-412 airfoils and divided
by 2. In theory, a 64-413.5. This airfoil is damn close to the Grumman airfoil
with the exception of the flat bottom from the nose to the spar. However,
the spar location makes it a 63.5-413.5 or something similar.
>>
>> That's why I wanted some good locations. I still need them if you have the
time and patience.
>>
>> From the looks of it, the Grumman airfoil actually a pretty decent airfoil.
Much thinner than the -415 and a longer upper surface with a nice gentle curve.
The -415 has a rather steep curve past the 40% chord peak.
>>
>> Comparing it to a Clark-Y one needs to begin making assumptions on installed
incident angles and the fact that the -Y is flatter on the bottom.
>>
>> Interesting.
>>
>> Feedback appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Smith <haveblue1(at)mac.com> |
Thanks to Barry and Bob, and anyone else who may add more to the thread on information
about the waterline.
Bruce
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Gary - Barry :: Switches |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Gary:
Here are a few switches that may do the job:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/ignition-lock-cylinder-and-keys-assembly/p2024816.jcwx
http://www.jcwhitney.com/omix-oe-replacement-ignition-lock-cylinder/p3064258.jcwx
NOW - This one sure looks possible:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/ignition-starter-switch/p2019019.jcwx
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Kuzyk <andrew(at)entro.com> |
| Subject: | AA5 Vortex Generators |
Has anyone looked into Vortex Generators for slow flight. How much do
they reduce the cruise speed?
Andrew
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| From: | "=?utf-8?B?bjJfbmFyY29zaXNAeWFob28uY29t?=" <n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFRlYW1HcnVtbWFuLUxpc3Q6IEFHNUIgdXBwZXIgY293bGluZw==? |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grumman airfoil |
The canopy rails are a good waterline. -You can also use the bottom of th
e plane. -The wing is installed at 3 degrees to the fuselage. -Measure
the wing on the front half.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A Fro
m: Bruce Smith =0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0A
Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 4:09 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Grum
man airfoil=0A =0A=0AGary,=0A=0AJust curious. What points on a Grumman... s
ay AA-5 .... determine or make up the waterline? I understand waterline as
it applies to boats, but not airplanes.=0A=0AThanks and Happy 4th to all.
=0A=0ABruce=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Jul 3, 2012, at 11:59 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A=0AU
nder the heading of way too much time on my hands and a curiosity that won'
t let me leave this topic alone, I've been converting to CAD the dimensions
of several NACA airfoils and matching them to the Grumman airfoil. -Goin
g on the premiss that the original AA1 had a 64-415 airfoil, I laid out a d
rawing to match it as close as possible. -=0A>=0A>=0A>The original AA1 ai
rfoil is close to the 64-415, but it isn't really a 64-415. -Using that s
ame airfoil, and drooping the nose so that the nose was parallel to the "0"
waterline and then extending that line to the spar, well, let's just say,
it's an interesting airfoil, but nothing close to a 64-415.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
Then, adding the flaps and ailerons from a Tiger and you have a completely
new airfoil. -It's skinnier than a 64-415 and fatter than a 64-412. -So
, I algebraically added the points of both the 64-415 and 64-412 airfoils a
nd divided by 2. -In theory, a 64-413.5. -This airfoil is damn close to
the Grumman airfoil with the exception of the flat bottom from the nose to
the spar. -However, the spar location makes it a 63.5-413.5 or something
similar.=0A>=0A>=0A>That's why I wanted some good locations. -I still ne
ed them if you have the time and patience.=0A>=0A>=0A>From the looks of it,
the Grumman airfoil actually a pretty decent airfoil. -Much thinner than
the -415 and a longer upper surface with a nice gentle curve. -The -415
has a rather steep curve past the 40% chord peak. -=0A>=0A>=0A>Comparing
it to a Clark-Y one needs to begin making assumptions on installed incident
angles and the fact that the -Y is flatter on the bottom.=0A>=0A>=0A>Inter
esting. -=0A>=0A>=0A>Feedback appreciated.=0A>href="http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGr
umman-List=0Ahref="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.
com=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.c
om/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grumman airfoil |
waterline has nothing to do with boats. -Water line comes from using a wa
ter level.=0A=0AThe 'zero' line on the Grumman airfoil is NOT from the bulg
e at the leading edge. -The zero for the Grumman chord is 2.9 inches up f
rom the bottom (forward flat surface) of the wing at the leading edge. -I
t extends though the aft trailing edge of the flap with the bottom of the f
lap on the same plane as the aft section on the bottom of the wing.=0A=0A
=0A________________________________=0A From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
=0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 5:47
AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Grumman airfoil=0A =0A=0ABruce:=0A=0AW
aterline is the same thing as Cord. -The-imaginary-straight-line-fr
om the Leading Edge Tip (Bulge) to the Training Edge Tip or-Aerilon-Tra
ining Edge when in a-neutral-position. -=0A=0AI do not know how water
line came into play with planes, though may of the terms for aviation came
from sailing and the sea. -In this case I would guess it has more to do w
ith the-Egyptians-and the building of things like the Pyramids. -Ther
e is a tool know as an Egyptian Water Level. -Today it would be made out
of a-flexible-clear plastic tube, filled almost to the top with water (
at each end). -Since water-seeks its own level - You could put the wate
r level at the wings leading edge - Then move the other end of the tube up
and down (water level) to measure the location of the wings training edge.
-Sight from water level (waterline) to water level (waterline) and you ha
ve the-Cord a.k.a. Waterline. -Water levels are pretty cool, they can b
e used to set heights/elevations over long distances and around corners - E
specially in areas where you can not run a straight line, like finding Cent
er-line from Firewall to Tailcone.=0A=0ABarry=0A"Chop'd Liver"=0A=0A=0AOn W
ed, Jul 4, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:=0A=0AGar
y,=0A>=0A>=0A>Just curious. What points on a Grumman... say AA-5 .... deter
mine or make up the waterline? I understand waterline as it applies to boat
s, but not airplanes.=0A>=0A>=0A>Thanks and Happy 4th to all.=0A>=0A>=0A>Br
uce=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:59 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A>=0A
>Under the heading of way too much time on my hands and a curiosity that wo
n't let me leave this topic alone, I've been converting to CAD the dimensio
ns of several NACA airfoils and matching them to the Grumman airfoil. -Go
ing on the premiss that the original AA1 had a 64-415 airfoil, I laid out a
drawing to match it as close as possible. -=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>The original A
A1 airfoil is close to the 64-415, but it isn't really a 64-415. -Using t
hat same airfoil, and drooping the nose so that the nose was parallel to th
e "0" waterline and then extending that line to the spar, well, let's just
say, it's an interesting airfoil, but nothing close to a 64-415.=0A>>=0A>>
=0A>>=0A>>Then, adding the flaps and ailerons from a Tiger and you have a c
ompletely new airfoil. -It's skinnier than a 64-415 and fatter than a 64-
412. -So, I algebraically added the points of both the 64-415 and 64-412
airfoils and divided by 2. -In theory, a 64-413.5. -This airfoil is dam
n close to the Grumman airfoil with the exception of the flat bottom from t
he nose to the spar. -However, the spar location makes it a 63.5-413.5 or
something similar.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>That's why I wanted some good locations.
-I still need them if you have the time and patience.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>From
the looks of it, the Grumman airfoil actually a pretty decent airfoil. -M
uch thinner than the -415 and a longer upper surface with a nice gentle cur
ve. -The -415 has a rather steep curve past the 40% chord peak. -=0A>>
=0A>>=0A>>Comparing it to a Clark-Y one needs to begin making assumptions o
n installed incident angles and the fact that the -Y is flatter on the bott
om.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Interesting. -=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Feedback appreciated.=0A>>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List href="http://forums.matronics.com/"
>http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"
========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
A relay for the radios might make it simpler. =C2-I hadn't thought of tha
t. =C2-It isn't necessary for the Alt to go off line. =C2-Just the radi
os. =C2-If the alt goes off line during start, it's not a problem.=0A=0AT
hanks=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive@
gmail.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, July 4,
2012 6:00 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question=0A =0A=0AAHhhhhh OK
Gary:=0A=0AI did have the sequence out of order. =C2-Your sequence:=0AOF
F=0ARadio ON=0AYour notes did not mention Master but I guess that would be
next - Master ON=0AALT ON=0ASTART - Radios OFF - Would you want to turn ALT
OFF during START?=0AThen a SPRING RETURN just like a car back to ON for Ra
dios - Master & ALT all ON.=0AYes, it could be done. =C2-Finding a qualit
y switch to do the job will be=C2-difficult=C2-BUT! =C2-I'll look.=0A
Gary, did you want to use a relay for the Radio operation?=0A=0ABarry=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0AOn Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 10:55 PM, Gary Vogt
wrote:=0A=0ABarry,=C2-=0A>=0A>=0A>Let me write it out again. =C2-Maybe
you read it so fast the first time that you missed the details.=0A>=0A>=0A
>=A2 the first position turns on the battery. =C2-( listen to the r
adio etc.)=0A>=A2 the second position turns on the alternator and the
rest of the electrical system.=0A>=A2 the third position starts the
car. =C2-During the start, the radios are dropped off-line to prevent dam
age to the radios.=0A>=0A>=0A>The mags do not need to be a part of the swit
ch. =C2-The mags would then be just two separate toggles.=0A>=0A>=0A>Just
as in a car, the radios can come on with the first position. =C2-Alterna
tor with the second. =C2-So, you can turn on the radios just like you wou
ld with a split master without turning on the whole system. =C2-If an old
GM ignition switch would work, then I'll look for that. =C2-It needs to
be keyed. =C2-The key, then, is required to turn on the radio. =C2-Just
like your car.=0A>=0A>=0A>Gary=0A>PS, the ALT side of the Master switch is
nothing more than adding power to the field circuit. =C2-In case of an a
lternator failure, turn the key to the first detent; =C2-i.e., radios.
=C2-If you wanted to change the emergency procedure, just pull the field
breaker. =C2-=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A> From: F
LYaDIVE =0A>To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0A>Sent
: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:11 PM=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question
=0A> =0A>=0A>Hello Gary:=0A>=0A>=0A>That is=C2-exactly=C2-what I fly in
the RV6. =C2-=0A>Toggle Master - Toggle ALT - Toggle L Mag - Toggle R Ma
g (Electronic=C2-Ignition)=0A>Now, I went a little out there with the swi
tches. =C2-=0A>I used Heavy Duty DPST (Double Poll Single Throw) switches
.=0A>Heavy duty so they would have a nice solid SNAP when they are turned o
n and off and would not move without noticing (works great with a gloved ha
nd). =C2-=0A>These are the large size switch that require about a 3/8" ho
le for mounting and has a very high Amperage rating 15 to 20 Amps.=0A>The D
P so there is a huge amount of internal=C2-redundancy=C2-in the contact
ability.=C2-=0A>I just tied each of the sides of the switch=C2-togethe
r.=0A>As well as having Silver Contacts.=0A>I know, way over kill, since al
l they do is short out the Mag to ground and turn relays On & Off. =C2-An
d rubber boots are also=C2-available.=0A>Lots of advantages - And SIMPLE.
=0A>=0A>=0A>Your question 2 "(Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is
easy to convert to a planes requirements?"=0A>I gather that you want it ju
st like a cars switch system (OFF - Master ON- Alt ON - Radios ON)? =C2-B
ut you are NOT going to connect the MAGS to the same switch, is that correc
t?=0A>Then what if you want to have the RADIOS ON with the ALT OFF? <-- As
in a ALT failure and Radios still functioning (Running off Battery Power)?
=0A>The next thing that comes to mind is ALL the=C2-Repetitive=C2-Train
ing we have all gone through over the years. =C2-We have=C2-certain=C2
-things infused into our brains. =C2-The pilots would have to relearn t
hings that are a bit different than our norm and what has become almost a m
uscle=C2-response. =C2-=0A>=0A>=0A>If you interested in this type of sw
itch I will search one out for you. =C2-It would more than likely be a=C2
-ROTARY=C2-switch with an=C2-enclosure. =C2-Would you want it Key
=C2-Activated?=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Barry=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2-=C2-
=0A>=0A>=0A>On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A>=0A>Barry, this one is for you because you have so much more t
rivia knowledge about electronics than most. =C2-If anyone else knows the
answer, be answer also.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>I was thinking about the electronic
ignition system I installed on both Dean's and Larry's planes a few months
back. =C2-Both of them would have benefitted from having separate toggle
switches for each mag. =C2-That would make the mag checks a little simple
r. =C2-=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>And, then the trusty Avionics Master. =C2-I think
making a single point failure in a plane is stupid, but, what do I know.
=C2-=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>So, I got to thinking (here we go again), on a cars ig
nition switch,=C2-=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=A2 the first position turns on th
e battery. =C2-( listen to the radio etc.)=0A>>=A2 the second posit
ion turns on the alternator and the rest of the electrical system.=0A>>
=A2 the third position starts the car. =C2-During the start, the radio
s are dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>My qu
estions are:=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>(Q1) Why not incorporate separate toggles for th
e mags and an ignition switch that behaves just like a cars ignition switch
?=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>That would simplify the entire process.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>(Q2)
Is there a switch that would work that is easy to convert to a planes requi
rements?=0A>>st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamG
rumman-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/cont
ribution =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://ww
====
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AA5 Vortex Generators |
if you want slow flight, buy a Maule, Cub, Citabria, Cessna, or Piper.=0A
=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Andrew Kuzyk <andrew@entro.
com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012
8:14 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: AA5 Vortex Generators=0A =0A=0A=0A=0AH
as anyone looked into Vortex Generators for slow flight. -How much do the
y reduce the cruise speed?=0A=0AAndrew-=0ANOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY. This
communication, including any information transmitted with it, is intended
only for the use of the addressee(s) and is confidential. If you are not an
intended recipient or responsible for delivering the message to an intende
d recipient, any review, disclosure, conversion to hard copy, dissemination
, reproduction or other use of any part of this communication is strictly p
rohibited, as is the taking or omitting of any action in reliance upon this
communication. If you received this communication in error or without auth
orization please notify us immediately by return e-mail or otherwise and pe
rmanently delete the entire communication from any computer, disk drive, or
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B upper cowling |
That is an awesome question. =C2-If it isn't sold, I was going to try and
install it on a Tiger coming in for new engine mounts. =C2-I'll let you
know. =C2-They should fit.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A Fr
om: "n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com" =0ATo: teamgrumman-list@
matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 9:43 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumm
an-List: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B upper cowling=0A =0A=0AGary, can the pr
oduction part legally be used on an older aa5b? Say a '76. =C2-Would it p
hysically fit?=0A=0ABrock=0A=0AFrom my HTC Sensation 4G on T-Mobile. The fi
rst nationwide 4G network=0A=0A=0A----- Reply message -----=0AFrom: "Gary V
ogt" =0ATo: "Teamgrumman List" =0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B upper cowling=0ADate: Tue, Ju
l 3, 2012 10:35 pm=0A=0A=0A=0AI have two AG5B upper cowlings.=0A=0AOne was
a prototype and is made of fiberglass. =C2-The other is a production carb
on fiber part.=0A=0AIf you need one or want one as a spare, I'll sell both
-========================
=========== =C2=C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD=C2
=B2,=C3=9Eg(=93=C5-=C3=93M4=C3=93G=C3=9Aq=C3=BC=C2=A2=C3=C3=A2z
=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2=AB8^M=C3=C2=C2=BB=C2=84=A2
=C2=A9=C3=8B=C5-=C3=8BD=84=A2=C2=A8=C2=A5=C5-=C3=AE=EF=BD,z=C3=98
^1=C2=ABk=C2=A2x=C5=93=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B4W=C5=A1=C2=B6=C3=C3=9E=C2
=B0=C3'=C2=AF=C5-=C2=AD=C2=A2=C2=BBhn=C2=BA0=C2=B1=C3=AD=C3=A9
=C5=A1=C5=B8"=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9B=C2=AD=C5-X=C2=AD=B0=C3=AB,=C2=B9=C3
=88Z=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B5I=C3J=C3=C3=ACr=C2=B8=C2=A9=C2=B6*'
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Kuzyk <andrew(at)entro.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AA5 Vortex Generators |
Thanks Gary Since I couldn't get any more enthusiasm from the winglet
speed mod, I thought I would go slow
On Jul 5, 2012, at 3:54 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> if you want slow flight, buy a Maule, Cub, Citabria, Cessna, or Piper.
>
> From: Andrew Kuzyk <andrew(at)entro.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 8:14 PM
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: AA5 Vortex Generators
>
>
> Has anyone looked into Vortex Generators for slow flight. How much do
they reduce the cruise speed?
>
> Andrew
> NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY. This communication, including any
information transmitted with it, is intended only for the use of the
addressee(s) and is confidential. If you are not an intended recipient
or responsible for delivering the message to an intended recipient, any
review, disclosure, conversion to hard copy, dissemination, reproduction
or other use of any part of this communication is strictly prohibited,
as is the taking or omitting of any action in reliance upon this
communication. If you received this communication in error or without
authorization please notify us immediately by return e-mail or otherwise
and permanently delete the entire communication from any computer, disk
drive, or other storage medium.
>
>
>
>
>
>
NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY. This communication, including any information
transmitted with it, is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) and
is confidential. If you are not an intended recipient or responsible for
delivering the message to an intended recipient, any review, disclosure,
conversion to hard copy, dissemination, reproduction or other use of any
part of this communication is strictly prohibited, as is the taking or o
mitting of any action in reliance upon this communication. If you receive
d this communication in error or without authorization please notify us i
mmediately by return e-mail or otherwise and permanently delete the entir
e communication from any computer, disk drive, or other storage medium.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AA5 Vortex Generators |
I looked into winglets about 5 years ago. -I would still like to make som
e. -I wouldn't expect any speed improvement. -The 'bitchin' factor woul
d go up though.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Andrew Ku
zyk =0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Thursd
ay, July 5, 2012 1:48 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AA5 Vortex Genera
tors=0A =0A=0AThanks Gary Since I couldn't get any more enthusiasm from the
winglet speed mod, I thought I would go slow=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Jul 5, 20
12, at 3:54 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A=0Aif you want slow flight, buy a Maule,
Cub, Citabria, Cessna, or Piper.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>__________________________
______=0A> From: Andrew Kuzyk <andrew(at)entro.com>=0A>To: teamgrumman-list@ma
tronics.com =0A>Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 8:14 PM=0A>Subject: TeamGrumm
an-List: AA5 Vortex Generators=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Has anyone looked into V
ortex Generators for slow flight. -How much do they reduce the cruise spe
ed?=0A>=0A>=0A>Andrew-=0A>NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY. This communication,
including any information transmitted with it, is intended only for the use
of the addressee(s) and is confidential. If you are not an intended recipi
ent or responsible for delivering the message to an intended recipient, any
review, disclosure, conversion to hard copy, dissemination, reproduction o
r other use of any part of this communication is strictly prohibited, as is
the taking or omitting of any action in reliance upon this communication.
If you received this communication in error or without authorization please
notify us immediately by return e-mail or otherwise and permanently delete
the entire communication from any computer, disk drive, or other storage m
edium. =0A>=0A>=0A>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-L
ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0Ahref="http://f
orums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com=0Ahref="http://www.matr
onics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A=0ANOTICE
OF CONFIDENTIALITY. This communication, including any information transmitt
ed with it, is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) and is confide
ntial. If you are not an intended recipient or responsible for delivering t
he message to an intended recipient, any review, disclosure, conversion to
hard copy, dissemination, reproduction or other use of any part of this com
munication is strictly prohibited, as is the taking or omitting of any acti
on in reliance upon this communication. If you received this communication
in error or without authorization please notify us immediately by return e-
mail or otherwise and permanently delete the entire communication from any
=========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brock Windsor <n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B upper cowling |
Well, if I knew they fit, and would be legal, I would buy them for my tiger
.=C2- Its a 76 if you couldn't guess.=C2- My current uppers are about t
o split down the sides.=C2- =0A=0A =0A=0A________________________________
=0A From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list@matroni
cs.com" =0ASent: Thursday, July 5, 2012 2:
55 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B upper cow
ling=0A =0A=0AThat is an awesome question. =C2-If it isn't sold, I was g
oing to try and install it on a Tiger coming in for new engine mounts. =C2
-I'll let you know. =C2-They should fit.=0A =0A=0A_____________________
___________=0A From: "n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com" <n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo:
teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 9:43 PM=0AS
ubject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B upper cowling=0A =0A
=0AGary, can the production part legally be used on an older aa5b? Say a '7
6. =C2-Would it physically fit?=0A=0ABrock=0A=0AFrom my HTC Sensation 4G
on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network=0A=0A=0A----- Reply message --
---=0AFrom: "Gary Vogt" <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: "Teamgrumman List" <t
eamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com>=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B upper cowl
ing=0ADate: Tue, Jul 3, 2012 10:35 pm=0A=0A=0A=0AI have two AG5B upper cowl
ings.=0A=0AOne was a prototype and is made of fiberglass. =C2-The other i
s a production carbon fiber part.=0A=0AIf you need one or want one as a spa
re, I'll sell both for $1000 or any reasonable offer. =C2-=0A=0AGary =0Ah
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigato =C2=C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD=C2
=B2,=C3=9Eg(=93=C5-=C3=93M4=C3=93G=C3=9Aq=C3=BC=C2=A2=C3=C3=A2z
=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2=AB8^M=C3=C2=C2=BB=C2=84=A2
=C2=A9=C3=8B=C5-=C3=8BD=84=A2=C2=A8=C2=A5=C5-=C3=AE=EF=BD,z=C3=98
^1=C2=ABk=C2=A2x=C5=93=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B4W=C5=A1=C2=B6=C3=C3=9E=C2
=B0=C3'=C2=AF=C5-=C2=AD=C2=A2=C2=BBhn=C2=BA0=C2=B1=C3=AD=C3=A9
=C5=A1=C5=B8"=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9B=C2=AD=C5-X=C2=AD=B0=C3=AB,=C2=B9=C3
=88Z=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B5I=C3J=C3=C3=ACr=C2=B8=C2=A9=C2=B6*'=0A=0A
====================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | AG5B upper cowling: fiberglass. top pics |
=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Brock Windsor <n2_nar
cosis(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com" =0ASent: Thursday, July 5, 2012 7:46 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGr
umman-List: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B upper cowling=0A =0A=0AWell, if I kn
ew they fit, and would be legal, I would buy them for my tiger.=C2- Its a
76 if you couldn't guess.=C2- My current uppers are about to split down
the sides.=C2- =0A=0AFrom: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: "teamg
rumman-list(at)matronics.com" =0ASent: Thursd
ay, July 5, 2012 2:55 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: TeamGrumman-L
ist: AG5B upper cowling=0A =0A=0AThat is an awesome question. =C2-If it i
sn't sold, I was going to try and install it on a Tiger coming in for new e
ngine mounts. =C2-I'll let you know. =C2-They should fit.=0A=0AFrom: "n
2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com" =0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matron
ics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 9:43 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-Lis
t: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B upper cowling=0A =0A=0AGary, can the producti
on part legally be used on an older aa5b? Say a '76. =C2-Would it physica
lly fit?=0A=0ABrock=0A=0AFrom my HTC Sensation 4G on T-Mobile. The first na
tionwide 4G network=0A=0A=0A----- Reply message -----=0AFrom: "Gary Vogt" <
teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: "Teamgrumman List" =0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B upper cowling=0ADate: Tue, Jul 3, 2
012 10:35 pm=0A=0A=0A=0AI have two AG5B upper cowlings.=0A=0AOne was a prot
otype and is made of fiberglass. =C2-The other is a production carbon fib
er part.=0A=0AIf you need one or want one as a spare, I'll sell both for $1
000 or any reasonable offer. =C2-=0A=0AGary=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Na
vigato =C2=C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD=C2=B2,=C3=9Eg(=93=C5-
=C3=93M4=C3=93G=C3=9Aq=C3=BC=C2=A2=C3=C3=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2
=AE'=C2=AB8^M=C3=C2=C2=BB=C2=84=A2=C2=A9=C3=8B=C5-=C3=8BD
=84=A2=C2=A8=C2=A5=C5-=C3=AE=EF=BD,z=C3=98^1=C2=ABk=C2=A2x=C5=93=C2=B0
=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B4W=C5=A1=C2=B6=C3=C3=9E=C2=B0=C3'=C2=AF=C5-=C2=AD
=C2=A2=C2=BBhn=C2=BA0=C2=B1=C3=AD=C3=A9=C5=A1=C5=B8"=C3=A2=C2=B2
=C3=9B=C2=AD=C5-X=C2=AD=B0=C3=AB,=C2=B9=C3=88Z=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2
=B5I=C3J=C3=C3=ACr=C2=B8=C2=A9=C2=B6*'=0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.matronics.c
=========================0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | AG5B Cowling: fiberglass inside |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | AG5B upper cowling: OEM cowling outside |
One of the pics is of the doublers and latches for a cowling. -The other
three are the outside. -I forgot to take pics of the inside. -But, it l
ooks nice. -No damage.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael W. Meyer" <michael(at)flightsked.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AA5 Vortex Generators |
On this list, you'll have more luck asking what's a good cleaner to
remove the shoe prints you get on the throttle knob, from trying to push
it in farther...
;-)
Thanks,
Michael
Michael W. Meyer
Tiger N74086
San Francisco, CA
michael(at)flightsked.com
On Jul 5, 2012, at 1:48 PM, Andrew Kuzyk wrote:
> Thanks Gary Since I couldn't get any more enthusiasm from the winglet
speed mod, I thought I would go slow
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 5, 2012, at 3:54 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
>> if you want slow flight, buy a Maule, Cub, Citabria, Cessna, or
Piper.
>>
>> From: Andrew Kuzyk <andrew(at)entro.com>
>> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 8:14 PM
>> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: AA5 Vortex Generators
>>
>>
>> Has anyone looked into Vortex Generators for slow flight. How much
do they reduce the cruise speed?
>>
>> Andrew
>> NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY. This communication, including any
information transmitted with it, is intended only for the use of the
addressee(s) and is confidential. If you are not an intended recipient
or responsible for delivering the message to an intended recipient, any
review, disclosure, conversion to hard copy, dissemination, reproduction
or other use of any part of this communication is strictly prohibited,
as is the taking or omitting of any action in reliance upon this
communication. If you received this communication in error or without
authorization please notify us immediately by return e-mail or otherwise
and permanently delete the entire communication from any computer, disk
drive, or other storage medium.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
>>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co
ntribution
>>
>
>
> NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY. This communication, including any
information transmitted with it, is intended only for the use of the
addressee(s) and is confidential. If you are not an intended recipient
or responsible for delivering the message to an intended recipient, any
review, disclosure, conversion to hard copy, dissemination, reproduction
or other use of any part of this communication is strictly prohibited,
as is the taking or omitting of any action in reliance upon this
communication. If you received this communication in error or without
authorization please notify us immediately by return e-mail or otherwise
and permanently delete the entire communication from any computer, disk
drive, or other storage medium.
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
On 7/5/2012 12:51 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> A relay for the radios might make it simpler. I hadn't thought of that.
> It isn't necessary for the Alt to go off line. Just the radios. If
> the alt goes off line during start, it's not a problem.
Beechcraft figured this out years ago. I have a relay that takes the
radios off line on my V35B.
Cliff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Gary - Barry :: Switches |
Barry, I'll look at them a little closer. -It's just an idea. -But, it
makes sense to me.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: FLYaDI
VE =0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Wedne
sday, July 4, 2012 8:46 AM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: Gary - Barry :: Swi
tches=0A =0A=0AGary:=0A=0AHere are a few switches that may do the job:=0Aht
tp://www.jcwhitney.com/ignition-lock-cylinder-and-keys-assembly/p2024816.jc
wx =0A=0Ahttp://www.jcwhitney.com/omix-oe-replacement-ignition-lock-cylinde
r/p3064258.jcwx =0A=0ANOW - This one sure looks-possible:=0Ahttp://www.jc
================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Smith <haveblue1(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grumman airfoil |
Gary,
Question. Are you going to design a new, semi-Cirrus like wing for the Grumman
4 seater line? You did say "I like doing stuff like this", and that you have tooooooo
much time on your hands.
Bruce
On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:59 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> Under the heading of way too much time on my hands and a curiosity that won't
let me leave this topic alone, I've been converting to CAD the dimensions of
several NACA airfoils and matching them to the Grumman airfoil. Going on the
premiss that the original AA1 had a 64-415 airfoil, I laid out a drawing to match
it as close as possible.
>
> The original AA1 airfoil is close to the 64-415, but it isn't really a 64-415.
Using that same airfoil, and drooping the nose so that the nose was parallel
to the "0" waterline and then extending that line to the spar, well, let's just
say, it's an interesting airfoil, but nothing close to a 64-415.
>
> Then, adding the flaps and ailerons from a Tiger and you have a completely new
airfoil. It's skinnier than a 64-415 and fatter than a 64-412. So, I algebraically
added the points of both the 64-415 and 64-412 airfoils and divided by
2. In theory, a 64-413.5. This airfoil is damn close to the Grumman airfoil
with the exception of the flat bottom from the nose to the spar. However, the
spar location makes it a 63.5-413.5 or something similar.
>
> That's why I wanted some good locations. I still need them if you have the time
and patience.
>
> From the looks of it, the Grumman airfoil actually a pretty decent airfoil.
Much thinner than the -415 and a longer upper surface with a nice gentle curve.
The -415 has a rather steep curve past the 40% chord peak.
>
> Comparing it to a Clark-Y one needs to begin making assumptions on installed
incident angles and the fact that the -Y is flatter on the bottom.
>
> Interesting.
>
> Feedback appreciated.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Grumman airfoil |
| From: | Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
I'll tell you want I would really like to do. I would like to have the reso
urces to build a full scale de Havilland DH.98 Mosquito. but out of carbon f
iber. To power it, I would hire Falconer to work with Walden to build a 2400
cubic inch V12 with a goal of 4000 horsepower with nitrous and 2000 without
.
But since I'm poor, I'll just draw pictures.
Save your pennies for an IO360 and constant speed prop for your Tiger.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 10, 2012, at 5:47 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:
> Gary,
>
> Question. Are you going to design a new, semi-Cirrus like wing for the Gru
mman 4 seater line? You did say "I like doing stuff like this", and that you
have tooooooo much time on your hands.
>
> Bruce
>
> On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:59 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
>> Under the heading of way too much time on my hands and a curiosity that w
on't let me leave this topic alone, I've been converting to CAD the dimensio
ns of several NACA airfoils and matching them to the Grumman airfoil. Going
on the premiss that the original AA1 had a 64-415 airfoil, I laid out a dra
wing to match it as close as possible.
>>
>> The original AA1 airfoil is close to the 64-415, but it isn't really a 64
-415. Using that same airfoil, and drooping the nose so that the nose was p
arallel to the "0" waterline and then extending that line to the spar, well,
let's just say, it's an interesting airfoil, but nothing close to a 64-415.
>>
>> Then, adding the flaps and ailerons from a Tiger and you have a completel
y new airfoil. It's skinnier than a 64-415 and fatter than a 64-412. So, I
algebraically added the points of both the 64-415 and 64-412 airfoils and d
ivided by 2. In theory, a 64-413.5. This airfoil is damn close to the Grum
man airfoil with the exception of the flat bottom from the nose to the spar.
However, the spar location makes it a 63.5-413.5 or something similar.
>>
>> That's why I wanted some good locations. I still need them if you have t
he time and patience.
>>
>> =46rom the looks of it, the Grumman airfoil actually a pretty decent airf
oil. Much thinner than the -415 and a longer upper surface with a nice gent
le curve. The -415 has a rather steep curve past the 40% chord peak.
>>
>> Comparing it to a Clark-Y one needs to begin making assumptions on instal
led incident angles and the fact that the -Y is flatter on the bottom.
>>
>> Interesting.
>>
>> Feedback appreciated.
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | job shop machine work |
I was going to have the company that makes baffles for me me a seat latch.
-Their prices are a lot higher than I expected. -Does anyone know what
the web site is where I can get a bid from a lot of companies on the same i
tem?=0A=0AGary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
I have a complete set of AG5B yokes, brackets, and nylon bushings. -I tho
ught the new owner of Travis' plane wanted them for conversion. -I think
Garner told Cliff they wouldn't work. -Garner doesn't know that 28840 has
a flat panel just like an AG5B and that they'd work just fine. -So, if y
ou want a set of AG5B yokes, I'll sell them. -I had the brackets powder c
oated in black wrinkle. -$300 and they are yours. -Convert your plane t
o the AG5B yokes.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cliff Hanson" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
> I have a complete set of AG5B yokes, brackets, and nylon bushings. I
> thought the new owner of Travis' plane wanted them for conversion. I
> think Garner told Cliff they wouldn't work. Garner doesn't know that
> 28840 has a flat panel just like an AG5B and that they'd work just fine.
> So, if you want a set of AG5B yokes, I'll sell them. I had the brackets
> powder coated in black wrinkle. $300 and they are yours. Convert your
> plane to the AG5B yokes.
Gary, I'm on a motorcycle trip out in CO, etc now and haven't contacted
Brian and Ruth, but I'm sure they will want the yokes and for you to have
them powdercoated and ready to install. I'll call them and have them call
you.
Cliff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cloudvalley(at)comcast.net |
Hi Gary,
=C2-We found out that the shafts were only 17 inches, not 21.5 inches. Th
e cheapest route for us would be replacing the shafts and yokes back to the
79 style. Thanks anyway, Gary.
Brian and Ruth
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Vogt" <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 10:36:38 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B Yokes
I have a complete set of AG5B yokes, brackets, and nylon bushings. =C2-I
thought the new owner of Travis' plane wanted them for conversion. =C2-I
think Garner told Cliff they wouldn't work. =C2-Garner doesn't know that
28840 has a flat panel just like an AG5B and that they'd work just fine.
=C2-So, if you want a set of AG5B yokes, I'll sell them. =C2-I had the
brackets powder coated in black wrinkle. =C2-$300 and they are yours. =C2
-Convert your plane to the AG5B yokes.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
I got a call from Brian. -They are having someone change to the original
yokes. -And, it isn't easy.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A F
rom: Cliff Hanson =0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics
.com =0ASent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 6:04 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-L
" =0A=0A> I have a complete set of AG5B yokes, brac
kets, and nylon bushings. -I=0A> thought the new owner of Travis' plane w
anted them for conversion. -I=0A> think Garner told Cliff they wouldn't w
ork. -Garner doesn't know that=0A> 28840 has a flat panel just like an AG
5B and that they'd work just fine.=0A> -So, if you want a set of AG5B yok
es, I'll sell them. -I had the brackets=0A> powder coated in black wrinkl
e. -$300 and they are yours. -Convert your=0A> plane to the AG5B yokes.
=0A=0AGary, I'm on a motorcycle trip out in CO, etc now and haven't contact
ed=0ABrian and Ruth, but I'm sure they will want the yokes and for you to h
ave=0Athem powdercoated and ready to install.- I'll call them and have th
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
Brian and Ruth,=0A=0A=0AThat's funny, I don't remember cutting anything dow
n and redrilling. -That would be WAAAAY to difficult to get them correct.
-I tried drilling new "U"-joints and getting them correct. -Not fun.
-Maybe Travis had them cut down. -=0A=0AWhere did you get the length di
mension? -The instrument panel is in the exact same location as stock.
-With the yokes all the way forward, it needs to hit the firewall. -If
4.5 inches was cut off, I don't see how that would fit. -Who knows. -I'
ll look at the Project X plane today.=0A=0AThe easiest fix is the AG5B yoke
s. -That way, you can still have all of the functions on the yokes.-=0A
=0AGary=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "cloudvalley@comc
ast.net" =0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0A
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 6:40 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5
B Yokes=0A =0A=0AHi Gary,=0A-We found out that the shafts were only 17 in
ches, not 21.5 inches. The cheapest route for us would be replacing the sha
fts and yokes back to the 79 style. Thanks anyway, Gary.=0ABrian and Ruth
=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFrom: "Gary Vogt" <teamgrum
man(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: "Teamgrumman List" =0A
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 10:36:38 AM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B
Yokes=0A=0A=0AI have a complete set of AG5B yokes, brackets, and nylon bush
ings. -I thought the new owner of Travis' plane wanted them for conversio
n. -I think Garner told Cliff they wouldn't work. -Garner doesn't know
that 28840 has a flat panel just like an AG5B and that they'd work just fin
e. -So, if you want a set of AG5B yokes, I'll sell them. -I had the bra
ckets powder coated in black wrinkle. -$300 and they are yours. -Conver
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | leaking access cover |
So, 5 years ago this month, I resealed both wing tanks and all access cover
s on this guys Tiger. -Apparently the local guy at the Columbia, CA airpo
rt didn't have resealing experience. -The reseal and annual took 6 months
. -There was a LOT of stuff wrong. -Most notable was the spinner with 1
/4 inch runout. -The rear backing plate was that far off.=0A=0ASo, I get
a call last week and the owner wants me to reseal the access covers. -I d
on't know about you, I don't normally inspect inside the fuel tank at annua
l. -For some reason, ALL of the access covers had been off since I reseal
ed them 5 years ago.=0A=0AHere is a shot of one access cover that leaked so
bad it wouldn't hold fuel. -The owner said the mechanic he used had trie
d three times to seal it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Nose Gear Wheel Fairing Kit (3 pics) |
I have ALMOST the complete set-up for a nose gear. -The only things missi
ng are the doublers that go inside the wheel pant. -And, you wouldn't wan
t them anyway. -Someone had installed them with #10 screws. -=0A=0ANote
: -The axle shaft looks like someone hit it with a ball peen hammer is a
few spots. -Not sure why. -Otherwise, it rolls on a piece of glass with
out bouncing. -=0A- - - - - -The bearings are new (not in a b
ox). -No races. -=0A- - - - - -The dust seals and rings are
new. -=0A- - - - - -The wheel fairing was repaired (where th
e screws were) with large weave cloth. -It isn't real pretty, but it is e
ven. -No excess resin. -=0A=0AI'll sell the whole kit for $300 or any r
easonable offer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Fw: Nose Gear Wheel Fairing Kit (2 pics) |
=0A=0A=0A----- Forwarded Message -----=0AFrom: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo
.com>=0ATo: Teamgrumman List =0ASent: Wedn
esday, July 18, 2012 12:02 PM=0ASubject: Nose Gear Wheel Fairing Kit (3 pic
s)=0A =0A=0AI have ALMOST the complete set-up for a nose gear. -The only
things missing are the doublers that go inside the wheel pant. -And, you
wouldn't want them anyway. -Someone had installed them with #10 screws.
-=0A=0ANote: -The axle shaft looks like someone hit it with a ball peen
hammer is a few spots. -Not sure why. -Otherwise, it rolls on a piece
of glass without bouncing. -=0A- - - - - -The bearings are ne
w (not in a box). -No races. -=0A- - - - - -The dust seals
and rings are new. -=0A- - - - - -The wheel fairing was repai
red (where the screws were) with large weave cloth. -It isn't real pretty
, but it is even. -No excess resin. -=0A=0AI'll sell the whole kit for
$300 or any reasonable offer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Smith <haveblue1(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: leaking access cover |
Gary,
Bottom photo, at about the 9:30 position. Is that an errant screw hole or a glob
of sealant?
Bruce
On Jul 18, 2012, at 2:37 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> So, 5 years ago this month, I resealed both wing tanks and all access covers
on this guys Tiger. Apparently the local guy at the Columbia, CA airport didn't
have resealing experience. The reseal and annual took 6 months. There was
a LOT of stuff wrong. Most notable was the spinner with 1/4 inch runout. The
rear backing plate was that far off.
>
> So, I get a call last week and the owner wants me to reseal the access covers.
I don't know about you, I don't normally inspect inside the fuel tank at annual.
For some reason, ALL of the access covers had been off since I resealed
them 5 years ago.
>
> Here is a shot of one access cover that leaked so bad it wouldn't hold fuel.
The owner said the mechanic he used had tried three times to seal it.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cloudvalley(at)comcast.net |
Hi Gary,
=C2-Garner gave us the specs from the Tiger spec sheet. He may have also
measured them. The ones we have are 17 inches long =C2-now . The=C2-sha
fts in there now may have come with the yokes. We don't know.
=C2- Bought two yokes for $45 each. We can have metal =C2-plates bent a
nd fashined to hold the buttons at the field here.
=C2- Ruth wants it changed. She was flaring and the yoke hit her clipboar
d; she bounc ed once and went around. She wants the yokes changed back now
.
Thanks Gary.
Brian and Ruth
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Vogt" <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 11:15:09 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B Yokes
Brian and Ruth,
That's funny, I don't remember cutting anything down and redrilling. =C2-
That would be WAAAAY to difficult to get them correct. =C2-I tried drilli
ng new "U"-joints and getting them correct. =C2-Not fun. =C2-Maybe Trav
is had them cut down. =C2-
Where did you get the length dimension? =C2-The instrument panel is in th
e exact same location as stock. =C2-With the yokes all the way forward, i
t needs to hit the firewall. =C2-If 4.5 inches was cut off, I don't see h
ow that would fit. =C2-Who knows. =C2-I'll look at the Project X plane
today.
The easiest fix is the AG5B yokes. =C2-That way, you can still have all o
f the functions on the yokes.=C2-
Gary
From: "cloudvalley(at)comcast.net" <cloudvalley(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 6:40 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B Yokes
Hi Gary,
=C2-We found out that the shafts were only 17 inches, not 21.5 inches. Th
e cheapest route for us would be replacing the shafts and yokes back to the
79 style. Thanks anyway, Gary.
Brian and Ruth
From: "Gary Vogt" <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 10:36:38 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B Yokes
I have a complete set of AG5B yokes, brackets, and nylon bushings. =C2-I
thought the new owner of Travis' plane wanted them for conversion. =C2-I
think Garner told Cliff they wouldn't work. =C2-Garner doesn't know that
28840 has a flat panel just like an AG5B and that they'd work just fine.
=C2-So, if you want a set of AG5B yokes, I'll sell them. =C2-I had the
brackets powder coated in black wrinkle. =C2-$300 and they are yours. =C2
-Convert your plane to the AG5B yokes.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamG=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DD=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Hodo <bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: leaking access cover |
Shouldn't that sealant be a dark purple?=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________________
_________=0A From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: Teamgrumman List
=0ASent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 1:37 PM
=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: leaking access cover=0A =0A=0ASo, 5 years ago
this month, I resealed both wing tanks and all access covers on this guys
Tiger. -Apparently the local guy at the Columbia, CA airport didn't have
resealing experience. -The reseal and annual took 6 months. -There was
a LOT of stuff wrong. -Most notable was the spinner with 1/4 inch runout.
-The rear backing plate was that far off.=0A=0ASo, I get a call last wee
k and the owner wants me to reseal the access covers. -I don't know about
you, I don't normally inspect inside the fuel tank at annual. -For some
reason, ALL of the access covers had been off since I resealed them 5 years
ago.=0A=0AHere is a shot of one access cover that leaked so bad it wouldn'
t hold fuel. -The owner said the mechanic he used had tried three times t
o seal it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: leaking access cover |
"Is that an errant screw hole or a glob of sealant?"=0A=0Aglob of sealant.
=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Bruce Smith <haveblue1@m
ac.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, July 18, 2
012 2:36 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: leaking access cover=0A =0A=0A
Gary,=0A=0ABottom photo, at about the 9:30 position. Is that an errant scre
w hole or a glob of sealant?=0A=0ABruce=0A=0A=0AOn Jul 18, 2012, at 2:37 PM
, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A=0ASo, 5 years ago this month, I resealed both wing ta
nks and all access covers on this guys Tiger. -Apparently the local guy a
t the Columbia, CA airport didn't have resealing experience. -The reseal
and annual took 6 months. -There was a LOT of stuff wrong. -Most notabl
e was the spinner with 1/4 inch runout. -The rear backing plate was that
far off.=0A>=0A>=0A>So, I get a call last week and the owner wants me to re
seal the access covers. -I don't know about you, I don't normally inspect
inside the fuel tank at annual. -For some reason, ALL of the access cove
rs had been off since I resealed them 5 years ago.=0A>=0A>=0A>Here is a sho
t of one access cover that leaked so bad it wouldn't hold fuel. -The owne
r said the mechanic he used had tried three times to seal it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: leaking access cover |
Yes, it should be purple. -The sealant was applied so hap-hazardly, that
there is no way it could seal. -I was very difficult to remove too.=0A=0A
=0A________________________________=0A From: Bob Hodo <bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com>
=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com"
=0ASent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:20 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List:
leaking access cover=0A =0A=0AShouldn't that sealant be a dark purple?=0A
=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@y
ahoo.com>=0ATo: Teamgrumman List =0ASent:
Wednesday, July 18, 2012 1:37 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: leaking acces
s cover=0A =0A=0ASo, 5 years ago this month, I resealed both wing tanks and
all access covers on this guys Tiger. -Apparently the local guy at the C
olumbia, CA airport didn't have resealing experience. -The reseal and ann
ual took 6 months. -There was a LOT of stuff wrong. -Most notable was t
he spinner with 1/4 inch runout. -The rear backing plate was that far off
.=0A=0ASo, I get a call last week and the owner wants me to reseal the acce
ss covers. -I don't know about you, I don't normally inspect inside the f
uel tank at annual. -For some reason, ALL of the access covers had been o
ff since I resealed them 5 years ago.=0A=0AHere is a shot of one access cov
er that leaked so bad it wouldn't hold fuel. -The owner said the mechanic
==========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Hodo <bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: leaking access cover |
We ought to have a list of do nots someplace to direct new Grumman owners t
o.- One of the first ones on that list are do not use any other type seal
ant on the oval fuel tank inspection covers than the purple stuff Garner wi
ll send you from Fletchair.- You will often see the fuel tank sealant ref
erred to as high adhesion and the cover sealant referred to as low adhesion
.- There is a reason to use the correct one, folks.=0A=0ABob Hodo, GADsde
n, AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: leaking access cover |
Except that it wouldn't help to publish anything more than what is already
out there. -Some people are just too stupid and too lazy to read.=0A=0A
=0A________________________________=0A From: Bob Hodo <bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com>
=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com"
=0ASent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:31 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: l
eaking access cover=0A =0A=0AWe ought to have a list of do nots someplace t
o direct new Grumman owners to.- One of the first ones on that list are d
o not use any other type sealant on the oval fuel tank inspection covers th
an the purple stuff Garner will send you from Fletchair.- You will often
see the fuel tank sealant referred to as high adhesion and the cover sealan
t referred to as low adhesion.- There is a reason to use the correct one,
=========================0A
=======
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: leaking access cover |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Gary:
Guess what I did this past week?
Here are some pictures of a hatch seal. Obviously not by that sticky
finger hatch attack.
Barry
On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> So, 5 years ago this month, I resealed both wing tanks and all access
> covers on this guys Tiger. Apparently the local guy at the Columbia, CA
> airport didn't have resealing experience. The reseal and annual took 6
> months. There was a LOT of stuff wrong. Most notable was the spinner with
> 1/4 inch runout. The rear backing plate was that far off.
>
> So, I get a call last week and the owner wants me to reseal the access
> covers. I don't know about you, I don't normally inspect inside the fuel
> tank at annual. For some reason, ALL of the access covers had been off
> since I resealed them 5 years ago.
>
> Here is a shot of one access cover that leaked so bad it wouldn't hold
> fuel. The owner said the mechanic he used had tried three times to seal it.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: leaking access cover |
I like when the sealant comes off like that. -Was it leaking? -Looks li
ke it was sealed well.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: FL
YaDIVE =0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: F
riday, July 20, 2012 6:28 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: leaking acces
s cover=0A =0A=0AGary:=0A=0AGuess what I did this past week?=0A=0AHere are
some pictures of a hatch seal. -Obviously-not by that sticky finger hat
ch attack.=0A=0ABarry=0A=0AOn Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A=0ASo, 5 years ago this month, I resealed both
wing tanks and all access covers on this guys Tiger. -Apparently the loca
l guy at the Columbia, CA airport didn't have resealing experience. -The
reseal and annual took 6 months. -There was a LOT of stuff wrong. -Most
notable was the spinner with 1/4 inch runout. -The rear backing plate wa
s that far off.=0A>=0A>=0A>So, I get a call last week and the owner wants m
e to reseal the access covers. -I don't know about you, I don't normally
inspect inside the fuel tank at annual. -For some reason, ALL of the acce
ss covers had been off since I resealed them 5 years ago.=0A>=0A>=0A>Here i
s a shot of one access cover that leaked so bad it wouldn't hold fuel. -T
he owner said the mechanic he used had tried three times to seal it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: leaking access cover |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Gary:
No - NOT leaking - - - At least not at the hatches. Leaking at the inboard
rib.
Barry
On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 12:15 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> I like when the sealant comes off like that. Was it leaking? Looks like
> it was sealed well.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* FLYaDIVE
> *To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent:* Friday, July 20, 2012 6:28 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: TeamGrumman-List: leaking access cover
>
> Gary:
>
> Guess what I did this past week?
>
> Here are some pictures of a hatch seal. Obviously not by that sticky
> finger hatch attack.
>
> Barry
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
> So, 5 years ago this month, I resealed both wing tanks and all access
> covers on this guys Tiger. Apparently the local guy at the Columbia, CA
> airport didn't have resealing experience. The reseal and annual took 6
> months. There was a LOT of stuff wrong. Most notable was the spinner with
> 1/4 inch runout. The rear backing plate was that far off.
>
> So, I get a call last week and the owner wants me to reseal the access
> covers. I don't know about you, I don't normally inspect inside the fuel
> tank at annual. For some reason, ALL of the access covers had been off
> since I resealed them 5 years ago.
>
> Here is a shot of one access cover that leaked so bad it wouldn't hold
> fuel. The owner said the mechanic he used had tried three times to seal it.
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Listed under 'the better mousetrap' |
Do you think there would be any demand for a seat latch that had a thumb ta
b to disengage the latch? -They aren't cheap to make (unless I have them
made in China). -I would get a PMA for them. -Direct replacement.=0A=0A
I have a set installed in a customers plane as a test. -I think it makes
the whole 'putting the seat back down' a lot easier.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | You can't make this stuff up |
Pic of EGT probe installed so that it needs to be removed in order to get t
he plug out.=0A=0APic of fuel flow transducer installation. -No fewer tha
n 4 90 degree turns. -What a mess.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Filed under: a better mousetrap |
Do you think there would be any demand for a seat latch that had a thumb ta
b to disengage the latch? -They aren't cheap to make (unless I have them
made in China). -I would get a PMA for them. -Direct replacement.=0A=0A
I have a set installed in a customers plane as a test. -I think it makes
the whole 'putting the seat back down' a lot easier.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz(at)calix.com> |
| Subject: | Filed under: a better mousetrap |
Speaking for myself, the current latches don't seem so bad I'd look to repl
ace them. I only flip my back seats about once a year and find getting the
back cushions on/off to be the only annoying part of the job.
Dan Schmitz
Tiger 4518B
KASH
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman
-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 2:21 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Filed under: a better mousetrap
Do you think there would be any demand for a seat latch that had a thumb ta
b to disengage the latch? They aren't cheap to make (unless I have them ma
de in China). I would get a PMA for them. Direct replacement.
I have a set installed in a customers plane as a test. I think it makes th
e whole 'putting the seat back down' a lot easier.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "=?utf-8?B?bjJfbmFyY29zaXNAeWFob28uY29t?=" <n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFRlYW1HcnVtbWFuLUxpc3Q6IEZpbGVkIHVuZGVyOiBhIGJldHRlciBtb3Vz?= |
=?utf-8?B?ZXRyYXA=?
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PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: TeamGrumman-List: Filed under: a better mousetrap |
| From: | Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
Well, all I can say is that after trying it on the one installation, it's an
awesome improvement over the latch thats in there. For $25 to 30 a set and a
bout 20 minutes installation, it makes a serious difference in convenience.
Sure, like most poorly conceived designs, there is always a work around. The
current latch is just one example.
"Never leave well enough alone." - Raymond Loewy. The most influential engin
eer of the twentieth century.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 23, 2012, at 8:38 PM, "n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com"
wrote:
> I agree with Dan. I flip my seats often as sometimes I take people for rid
es and sometimes I carry stuff and dogs. I have never had a problem with the
latches as they are.
>
> Brock
>
> =46rom my HTC Sensation 4G on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "Dan Schmitz" <Dan.Schmitz(at)calix.com>
> To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com"
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Filed under: a better mousetrap
> Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2012 2:19 pm
>
>
> Speaking for myself, the current latches don=99t seem so bad I
=99d look to replace them. I only flip my back seats about once a year and f
ind getting the back cushions on/off to be the only annoying part of the job
.
>
> Dan Schmitz
> Tiger 4518B
> KASH
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 2:21 PM
> To: Teamgrumman List
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Filed under: a better mousetrap
>
> Do you think there would be any demand for a seat latch that had a thumb t
ab to disengage the latch? They aren't cheap to make (unless I have them ma
de in China). I would get a PMA for them. Direct replacement.
>
> I have a set installed in a customers plane as a test. I think it makes t
he whole 'putting the seat back down' a lot easier.
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
> )=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2{l=EF=BD7=EF=BDr=EF=BDh=EF=BDM4=EF
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: TeamGrumman-List: Filed under: a better mousetrap |
| From: | Wes Chapman <weschapmanpc(at)gmail.com> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael W. Meyer" <michael(at)flightsked.com> |
| Subject: | Re: a better mousetrap |
Little by little, eliminating this and that annoying thing, eventually
makes a big difference in a product.
I'd buy a set.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael W. Meyer
Tiger N74086
San Francisco, CA
michael(at)flightsked.com
On Jul 24, 2012, at 4:10 AM, Wes Chapman wrote:
> I'm in !
>
> w
>
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 2:38 AM, Gary L Vogt
wrote:
> Well, all I can say is that after trying it on the one installation,
it's an awesome improvement over the latch thats in there. For $25 to 30
a set and about 20 minutes installation, it makes a serious difference
in convenience.
>
> Sure, like most poorly conceived designs, there is always a work
around. The current latch is just one example.
>
> "Never leave well enough alone." - Raymond Loewy. The most influential
engineer of the twentieth century.
>
> Gary
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 23, 2012, at 8:38 PM, "n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com"
wrote:
>
>> I agree with Dan. I flip my seats often as sometimes I take people
for rides and sometimes I carry stuff and dogs. I have never had a
problem with the latches as they are.
>>
>> Brock
>>
>> =46rom my HTC Sensation 4G on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G
network
>>
>> ----- Reply message -----
>> From: "Dan Schmitz" <Dan.Schmitz(at)calix.com>
>> To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com"
>> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Filed under: a better mousetrap
>> Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2012 2:19 pm
>>
>>
>> Speaking for myself, the current latches don=99t seem so bad
I=99d look to replace them. I only flip my back seats about once
a year and find getting the back cushions on/off to be the only annoying
part of the job.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dan Schmitz
>>
>> Tiger 4518B
>>
>> KASH
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Vogt
>> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 2:21 PM
>> To: Teamgrumman List
>> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Filed under: a better mousetrap
>>
>>
>>
>> Do you think there would be any demand for a seat latch that had a
thumb tab to disengage the latch? They aren't cheap to make (unless I
have them made in China). I would get a PMA for them. Direct
replacement.
>>
>> I have a set installed in a customers plane as a test. I think it
makes the whole 'putting the seat back down' a lot easier.
>>
>>
>>
>> =========
>> t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> =========
>> cs.com
>> =========
>> matronics.com/contribution
>> =========
>>
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>
>
> st"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
> --
> Wes Chapman
> Wes Chapman PC
> PO Box 718
> Vidalia, GA 30475
> 912-293-3794(cell)
> 1709 Green Acres Drive
> Vidalia, GA 30474
> 912-538-8289(home)
> 305 Maple Drive
> Vidalia, GA 30474
> 912-538-0053(work)
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: a better mousetrap |
| From: | Wes Chapman <weschapmanpc(at)gmail.com> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dean White" <dmwhite(at)e3ra.com> |
| Subject: | Re: a better mousetrap |
I=99ll second or third that and would buy a set if available.
Dean White (Tiger N81166)
Edmonds, WA 98026
dmwhite(at)e3ra.com
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wes
Chapman
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: a better mousetrap
......and another thought.
I'm mighty dang glad that folks like Gary are out there innovating and
improving our frames/planes. Heck, use them often or not, i'm buying the
product to keep keen minds like Gary's pushing forward. Thanks Gary.
Wes Chapman
KVDI
N74080/Tiger
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 2:14 PM, Michael W. Meyer
wrote:
Little by little, eliminating this and that annoying thing, eventually
makes a big difference in a product.
I'd buy a set.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael W. Meyer
Tiger N74086
San Francisco, CA
michael(at)flightsked.com
On Jul 24, 2012, at 4:10 AM, Wes Chapman wrote:
I'm in !
w
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 2:38 AM, Gary L Vogt
wrote:
Well, all I can say is that after trying it on the one installation,
it's an awesome improvement over the latch thats in there. For $25 to 30
a set and about 20 minutes installation, it makes a serious difference
in convenience.
Sure, like most poorly conceived designs, there is always a work around.
The current latch is just one example.
"Never leave well enough alone." - Raymond Loewy. The most influential
engineer of the twentieth century.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 23, 2012, at 8:38 PM, "n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com"
wrote:
I agree with Dan. I flip my seats often as sometimes I take people for
rides and sometimes I carry stuff and dogs. I have never had a problem
with the latches as they are.
Brock
>From my HTC Sensation 4G on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network
----- Reply message -----
From: "Dan Schmitz" <Dan.Schmitz(at)calix.com>
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Filed under: a better mousetrap
Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2012 2:19 pm
Speaking for myself, the current latches don=99t seem so bad
I=99d look to replace them. I only flip my back seats about once
a year and find getting the back cushions on/off to be the only annoying
part of the job.
Dan Schmitz
Tiger 4518B
KASH
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Vogt
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 2:21 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Filed under: a better mousetrap
Do you think there would be any demand for a seat latch that had a thumb
tab to disengage the latch? They aren't cheap to make (unless I have
them made in China). I would get a PMA for them. Direct replacement.
I have a set installed in a customers plane as a test. I think it makes
the whole 'putting the seat back down' a lot easier.
=========
t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
=========
cs.com <http://cs.com/>
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matronics.com/contribution
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Wes Chapman
Wes Chapman PC
PO Box 718
Vidalia, GA 30475
912-293-3794(cell)
1709 Green Acres Drive
Vidalia, GA 30474
912-538-8289(home)
305 Maple Drive
Vidalia, GA 30474
912-538-0053(work)
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
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ontribution
st"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Wes Chapman
Wes Chapman PC
PO Box 718
Vidalia, GA 30475
912-293-3794(cell)
1709 Green Acres Drive
Vidalia, GA 30474
912-538-8289(home)
305 Maple Drive
Vidalia, GA 30474
912-538-0053(work)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "=?utf-8?B?bjJfbmFyY29zaXNAeWFob28uY29t?=" <n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFRlYW1HcnVtbWFuLUxpc3Q6IFJlOiBUZWFtR3J1bW1hbi1MaXN0OiBGaWxl?= |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Filed |
under: a better mousetrap
| From: | Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
The ones I made by hand took about an hour each. I figured I could get a mac
hine shop to stamp out a dozen for $5.00/set. then, sell them for $20/set. B
oy was I wrong. I would need to buy 200 sets to get the price to $7.12/set.
I guess the cowling proves I'm not in this for the money.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 24, 2012, at 9:40 PM, "n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com"
wrote:
> What? I thought you said expensive. 25 ain't expensive. Hell, you can't b
uy a spark plug for 25.
>
> =46rom my HTC Sensation 4G on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "Gary L Vogt" <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com>
> To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com"
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Filed under: a better mou
setrap
> Date: Tue, Jul 24, 2012 1:38 am
>
>
> Well, all I can say is that after trying it on the one installation, it's a
n awesome improvement over the latch thats in there. For $25 to 30 a set and
about 20 minutes installation, it makes a serious difference in convenience
.
>
> Sure, like most poorly conceived designs, there is always a work around. T
he current latch is just one example.
>
> "Never leave well enough alone." - Raymond Loewy. The most influential eng
ineer of the twentieth century.
>
> Gary
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 23, 2012, at 8:38 PM, "n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com" wrote:
>
>> I agree with Dan. I flip my seats often as sometimes I take people for ri
des and sometimes I carry stuff and dogs. I have never had a problem with th
e latches as they are.
>>
>> Brock
>>
>> =46rom my HTC Sensation 4G on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network
>>
>> ----- Reply message -----
>> From: "Dan Schmitz" <Dan.Schmitz(at)calix.com>
>> To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com"
>> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Filed under: a better mousetrap
>> Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2012 2:19 pm
>>
>>
>> Speaking for myself, the current latches don=99t seem so bad I
=99d look to replace them. I only flip my back seats about once a year and f
ind getting the back cushions on/off to be the only annoying part of the job
.
>>
>> Dan Schmitz
>> Tiger 4518B
>> KASH
>>
>> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumm
an-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
>> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 2:21 PM
>> To: Teamgrumman List
>> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Filed under: a better mousetrap
>>
>> Do you think there would be any demand for a seat latch that had a thumb t
ab to disengage the latch? They aren't cheap to make (unless I have them ma
de in China). I would get a PMA for them. Direct replacement.
>>
>> I have a set installed in a customers plane as a test. I think it makes t
he whole 'putting the seat back down' a lot easier.
>>
>>
>>
>> =========================
=========
>> t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> =========================
=========
>> cs.com
>> =========================
=========
>> matronics.com/contribution
>> =========================
=========
>>
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>
==========================
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>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: a better mousetrap |
Thanks Wes. =C2-I do appreciate the kudos. =C2-=0AAnd, thank you Michae
l. =C2-Guys like you keep me in business.=0A=0ASome of you know I'm compl
etely redoing my interior and a firewall forward with an IO360 and constant
speed prop. =C2-I've relocated wires, relays, battery, made the firewall
almost void of junk. =C2-I've also changed some interior to get rid of m
ore of the plastic. =C2-My rear console will be flat all the way to the s
par. =C2-No more plastic! =C2-The console between the seats will be dif
ferent too. =C2-Can you say . . . 'cup holders?' =C2-It's a long, tedio
us process. =C2-=0A=0AMike, when do you want to get started on the tandem
Tiger?=0A=0AAlso, the tail on our planes is the only real weak spot in the
fuselage. =C2-I've got an idea for that too. =C2-But, not for a while.
=C2-Gotta pay off two houses. =C2-=0A=0AGary=0A=0A=0A_________________
_______________=0A From: Wes Chapman <weschapmanpc(at)gmail.com>=0ATo: teamgru
mman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 11:35 AM=0ASubject:
Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: a better mousetrap=0A =0A=0A......and another th
ought.=0AI'm mighty dang glad that folks like Gary are out there innovating
and improving our frames/planes. Heck, use them often or not, i'm buying t
he product to keep keen minds like Gary's pushing forward. Thanks Gary.=0A
=C2-=0AWes Chapman=0AKVDI=0AN74080/Tiger=0A=0A=0AOn Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at
2:14 PM, Michael W. Meyer wrote:=0A=0ALittle by li
ttle, eliminating this and that annoying thing, eventually makes a big diff
erence in a product.=0A>=0A>=0A>I'd buy a set.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Thanks,
=0A>Michael=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Michael W. Meyer=0A>=0A>=0A>Tiger N74086=0A>
San Francisco, CA=0A>=0A>michael(at)flightsked.com =0A>=0A>On Jul 24, 2012, at
4:10 AM, Wes Chapman wrote:=0A>=0A>I'm in !=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>w=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 2:38 AM, Gary L Vogt wrote:
=0A>>=0A>>Well, all I can say is that after trying it on the one installati
on, it's an awesome improvement over the latch thats in there. For $25 to 3
0 a set and about 20 minutes installation, it makes a serious difference in
convenience.=C2-=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Sure, like most poorly conceived desig
ns, there is always a work around. The current latch is just one example.
=C2-=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>"Never leave well enough alone." - Raymond Loewy. T
he most influential engineer of the twentieth century.=C2-=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A
>>>GarySent from my iPad=0A>>>=0A>>>On Jul 23, 2012, at 8:38 PM, "n2_narcos
is(at)yahoo.com" wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>I agree with
Dan. I flip my seats often as sometimes I take people for rides and sometim
es I carry stuff and dogs. I have never had a problem with the latches as t
hey are. =0A>>>>=0A>>>>Brock=0A>>>>=0A>>>>From my HTC Sensation 4G on T-Mob
ile. The first nationwide 4G network=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>----- Reply messag
e -----=0A>>>>From: "Dan Schmitz" <Dan.Schmitz(at)calix.com>=0A>>>>To: "teamgr
umman-list(at)matronics.com" =0A>>>>Subject: T
eamGrumman-List: Filed under: a better mousetrap=0A>>>>Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2
012 2:19 pm=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Speaking for myself, the current lat
ches don=99t seem so bad I=99d look to replace them.=C2- I on
ly flip my back seats about once a year and find getting the back cushions
on/off to be the only annoying part of the job.=0A>>>>=C2-=0A>>>>Dan Schm
itz=0A>>>>Tiger 4518B=0A>>>>KASH=0A>>>>=C2-=0A>>>>From:owner-teamgrumman-
list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.c
om] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt=0A>>>>Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 2:21 PM=0A>>>>
mousetrap=0A>>>>=C2-=0A>>>>Do you think there would be any demand for a
seat latch that had a thumb tab to disengage the latch? =C2-They aren't c
heap to make (unless I have them made in China). =C2-I would get a PMA fo
r them. =C2-Direct replacement.=0A>>>>=0A>>>>I have a set installed in a
customers plane as a test. =C2-I think it makes the whole 'putting the se
at back down' a lot easier.=0A>>>>===========0At">http:
//www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List =========
= cs.com ========== matronics.com/contribution ==
======== )=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2{l=EF=BD7=EF=BDr=EF
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=A8=EF=BD=EF=BDo=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=DB=A1
=DC=EF=BD=D9=A5\t=EF=BD-$=EF=BD =EF=BDDC=EF=BDc=EF=BD
=EF=BDL=EF=BD=EF=BDM 8=EF=BDD<=EF=BD=0A>>>st" target="_bl
ank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List tp://forums.matron
ics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>-
- =0A>>=0A>>Wes Chapman=0A>>Wes Chapman PC=0A>>PO Box 718=0A>>Vidalia, GA 3
0475=0A>>912-293-3794(cell)=0A>>1709 Green Acres Drive=0A>>Vidalia, GA 3047
4=0A>>912-538-8289(home)=0A>>305 Maple Drive=0A>>Vidalia, GA 30474=0A>>912-
538-0053(work)=0A>>=0A>>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrum
man-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List href="http:
//forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.mat
ronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A>=0A>st"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0Atp:
//forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A
=0A=0A-- =0A=0AWes Chapman=0AWes Chapman PC=0APO Box 718=0AVidalia, GA 3047
5=0A912-293-3794(cell)=0A1709 Green Acres Drive=0AVidalia, GA 30474=0A912-5
38-8289(home)=0A305 Maple Drive=0AVidalia, GA 30474=0A912-538-0053(work)=0A
=================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: a better mousetrap |
I'll tell the fabricator to make 20 sets. =C2-It's about all I can afford
. =C2-=0A=0AThanks for your help Dean. =C2-Let me know some performance
figures with that Jaguar cowling. =C2-=0A=0A=0A_________________________
_______=0A From: Dean White <dmwhite(at)e3ra.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matro
nics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:54 PM=0ASubject: RE: TeamGrumma
n-List: Re: a better mousetrap=0A =0A=0AI=99ll second or third that a
nd would buy a set if available.=0A=C2-=0ADean White (Tiger N81166)=0AEdm
onds, WA 98026=0Admwhite(at)e3ra.com=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-teamgrumman-list-se
rver(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
Behalf Of Wes Chapman=0ASent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 11:35 AM=0ATo: teamgru
mman-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: a better mouse
trap=0A=C2-=0A......and another thought.=0AI'm mighty dang glad that folk
s like Gary are out there innovating and improving our frames/planes. Heck,
use them often or not, i'm buying the product to keep keen minds like Gary
's pushing forward. Thanks Gary.=0A=C2-=0AWes Chapman=0AKVDI=0AN74080/Tig
er=0AOn Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 2:14 PM, Michael W. Meyer <michael@flightsked.
com> wrote:=0ALittle by little, eliminating this and that annoying thing, e
ventually makes a big difference in a product.=0A=C2-=0AI'd buy a set.=0A
=C2-=0AThanks,=0AMichael=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0AMichael W. Meyer=0A=C2-=0A
Tiger N74086=0ASan Francisco, CA=0A=C2-=0Amichael(at)flightsked.com=0A=C2-
=0AOn Jul 24, 2012, at 4:10 AM, Wes Chapman wrote:=0A=0A=0AI'm in !=0A=C2
-=0Aw=0AOn Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 2:38 AM, Gary L Vogt wrote:=0AWell, all I can say is that after trying it on the one install
ation, it's an awesome improvement over the latch thats in there. For $25 t
o 30 a set and about 20 minutes installation, it makes a serious difference
in convenience.=C2-=0A=C2-=0ASure, like most poorly conceived designs,
there is always a work around. The current latch is just one example.=C2
-=0A=C2-=0A"Never leave well enough alone." - Raymond Loewy. The most i
nfluential engineer of the twentieth century.=C2-=0AGary=0ASent from my i
Pad=0A=0AOn Jul 23, 2012, at 8:38 PM, "n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com" wrote:=0AI agree with Dan. I flip my seats often as sometimes I
take people for rides and sometimes I carry stuff and dogs. I have never ha
d a problem with the latches as they are. =0A>=0A>Brock=0A>=0A>From my HTC
Sensation 4G on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network=0A>----- Reply me
ssage -----=0A>From: "Dan Schmitz" <Dan.Schmitz(at)calix.com>=0A>To: "teamgrum
man-list(at)matronics.com" =0A>Subject: TeamGr
umman-List: Filed under: a better mousetrap=0A>Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2012 2:19
pm=0A>=C2-=0A>Speaking for myself, the current latches don=99t see
m so bad I=99d look to replace them.=C2- I only flip my back seats
about once a year and find getting the back cushions on/off to be the only
annoying part of the job.=0A>=C2-=0A>Dan Schmitz=0A>Tiger 4518B=0A>KASH
=0A>=C2-=0A>From:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owne
r-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt=0A>Sent: Mo
nday, July 23, 2012 2:21 PM=0A>To: Teamgrumman List=0A>Subject: TeamGrumman
-List: Filed under: a better mousetrap=0A>=C2-=0A>Do you think there woul
d be any demand for a seat latch that had a thumb tab to disengage the latc
h? =C2-They aren't cheap to make (unless I have them made in China). =C2
-I would get a PMA for them. =C2-Direct replacement.=0A>=0A>I have a se
t installed in a customers plane as a test. =C2-I think it makes the whol
e 'putting the seat back down' a lot easier.=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>==
=========0A>t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumm
an-List=0A>===========0A>cs.com=0A>======
=====0A>matronics.com/contribution=0A>=========
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t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0Atp://for
ums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A=C2-
=0A=0A=0A=C2-=0A-- =0AWes Chapman=0AWes Chapman PC=0APO Box 718=0AVidalia
, GA 30475=0A912-293-3794(cell)=0A1709 Green Acres Drive=0AVidalia, GA 3047
4=0A912-538-8289(home)=0A305 Maple Drive=0AVidalia, GA 30474=0A912-538-0053
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lank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A=C2-=0A=0A=0A=0A-- =0AWes C
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Maple Drive=0AVidalia, GA 30474=0A912-538-0053(work)=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A
=C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0Ahttp://forum
=============
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fwd: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention |
| From: | 923TE <923te(at)att.net> |
Gary,
Might be a good time to remind Tiger owners what they can get for just a lit
tle bit more..
Ned
> From: "Ron Levy" <rblevy(at)mindspring.com>
> Date: July 26, 2012 8:16:43 AM CDT
> To:
> Subject: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention
>
> Gang:
>
> You all saw this announcement from RJ Siegel at LoPresti a few days ago:
>
>> Hi Guys!
>> Just to remind everyone, the cowl sale ends at the close of AirVenture.
>> We have eight out of ten slots taken (So my simple brain says there are
>> two slots left.) (retail $4995? SALE $3995)
>> Also, I said I would respond to Kevin Lancaster's rave review of the new
>> 60w X3 landing light with a sale for Oshkosh. So here it is: The retail
>> is $1399 and the sale for Oshkosh is $949.
>
> RJ emailed me this morning to say that as a favor to AYA, the sale is bein
g
> extended through end of the AYA Convention next Friday, August 3.
>
> Thanks, RJ!
>
> Ron
> (who loves his LoPresti cowl)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | RJaguar cowling. Was: LoPresti sale extended through |
AYA Convention
I don't post to the GG. -=0A=0A$4000 for a nose bowl that really does not
hing? -Amazing. -I've got a Tiger in my shop right now with the LoPrest
i nose bowl that has CHTs near 500 degrees. -The NACA inlet is designed a
ll wrong. -Or, let's just say, not the way it was intended. -=0A=0ADave
will be getting out of the fabrication business next year. -So, I'm in t
he process of finding a new fabricator.=0A=0ANed, If you'd be so kind as to
post to the GG and point them toward my web site I would be very thankful.
-=0A=0AGary=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: 923TE <923
te(at)att.net>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com" =0ASent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 6:27 AM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-Li
st: Fwd: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention=0A =0A=0AGary,=0A
=0AMight be a good time to remind Tiger owners what they can get for just a
little bit more..=0ANed=0A=0AFrom: "Ron Levy" <rblevy(at)mindspring.com>=0A>D
>=0A>Subject: LoPresti sale extended through- AYA Convention=0A>=0A>=0AGa
ng:=0A>=0A>You all saw this announcement from RJ Siegel at LoPresti a few d
ays ago:=0A>=0A>=0A>Hi Guys!=0A>>=0A>Just to remind everyone, the cowl sale
ends at the close of AirVenture.=0A>>=0A>We have eight out of ten slots ta
ken (So my simple brain says there are=0A>>=0A>two slots left.) (retail $49
95? SALE $3995)=0A>>=0A>Also, I said I would respond to Kevin Lancaster's r
ave review of the new=0A>>=0A>60w X3 landing light with a sale for Oshkosh.
So here it is: The retail=0A>>=0A>is $1399 and the sale for Oshkosh is $94
9.=0A>>=0A>RJ emailed me this morning to say that as a favor to AYA, the sa
le is being=0A>extended through end of the AYA Convention next Friday, Augu
st 3.=0A>=0A>Thanks, RJ!=0A>=0A>Ron=0A>(who loves his LoPresti cowl)=0A>=0A
=====================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RJaguar cowling. Was: LoPresti sale extended through |
AYA Convention
| From: | "Brian Hausknecht" <bhauskne(at)gmail.com> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RJaguar cowling. Was: LoPresti sale extended |
through AYA Convention
| From: | Airport Bum <aa5_driver(at)yahoo.com> |
Good marketing does not mean that the product is a good product.
I think Gary has brought a good product to market and I would trade my cowl with
lopresti nose bowl for one of Gary's cowls in a heartbeat. In my opinion,
the lopresti is a large exit ramp with a visually improved nose bowl and different
intake thrown in to justify the extreme cost. Remember that Roy is no
longer with us and lopresti is not the same without him.
Gary may not speak with the tongue of a polished marketer, but he puts a lot into
his product and it shows. Gary may not have a perfect product, but I think
if you ask those who have it, that he stands behind it very well.
You can buy hype or you can call Gary and buy a quality product.
Kevin
Brian Hausknecht wrote:
>Gary,
>Apparently the Tiger in your shop has other problems if the CHTs are at 500.
Other Lopresti nosebowl owners are quite happy. Speaking so negatively about this
mod makes me reluctant to consider working with you. Positive and polite messages
from RJ at Lopresti make me more interested in buying from them, along
with the track record they have. Never heard of a Lopresti nosebowl owner reverting
back to stock nosebowl due to problems. Even reports on your cowling are
mixed with reports of little or no improvement at a much higher cost. Buyer
beware and all, but attitude does count.
>Cheers!
>Brian
>
>
>_
>Brian Hausknecht
>bhauskne(at)gmail.com
>www.brianflys.net
>www.brianflys.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com>
>Sender: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:14:42
>To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>Reply-To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.comSubject: TeamGrumman-List: RJaguar cowling.
Was: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention
>
>I don't post to the GG.
>
>$4000 for a nose bowl that really does nothing? Amazing. I've got a Tiger in my
shop right now with the LoPresti nose bowl that has CHTs near 500 degrees. The
NACA inlet is designed all wrong. Or, let's just say, not the way it was intended.
>
>Dave will be getting out of the fabrication business next year. So, I'm in the
process of finding a new fabricator.
>
>Ned, If you'd be so kind as to post to the GG and point them toward my web site
I would be very thankful.
>
>Gary
>
>
>________________________________
> From: 923TE <923te(at)att.net>
>To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com"
>Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 6:27 AM
>Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Fwd: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention
>
>
>Gary,
>
>Might be a good time to remind Tiger owners what they can get for just a little
bit more..
>Ned
>
>From: "Ron Levy" <rblevy(at)mindspring.com>
>>Date: July 26, 2012 8:16:43 AM CDT
>>To:
>>Subject: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention
>>
>>
>Gang:
>>
>>You all saw this announcement from RJ Siegel at LoPresti a few days ago:
>>
>>
>>Hi Guys!
>>>
>>Just to remind everyone, the cowl sale ends at the close of AirVenture.
>>>
>>We have eight out of ten slots taken (So my simple brain says there are
>>>
>>two slots left.) (retail $4995? SALE $3995)
>>>
>>Also, I said I would respond to Kevin Lancaster's rave review of the new
>>>
>>60w X3 landing light with a sale for Oshkosh. So here it is: The retail
>>>
>>is $1399 and the sale for Oshkosh is $949.
>>>
>>RJ emailed me this morning to say that as a favor to AYA, the sale is being
>>extended through end of the AYA Convention next Friday, August 3.
>>
>>Thanks, RJ!
>>
>>Ron
>>(who loves his LoPresti cowl)
>>
>====================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RJaguar cowling. Was: LoPresti sale extended |
through AYA Convention
| From: | "Brian Hausknecht" <bhauskne(at)gmail.com> |
Good marketing does not mean a bad product either. Imperfect performance reports
all over the place for any aircraft or product. So judgment and caution prevails
when making buy decisions. Also the attitude of the vendor is important to
me. RJ gives credit to Gary's cowl and provides the performance info he feels
is reasonable to share. Gary is Gary. There are a range of performance reports
on both products. Small market with cautious buyers. How should one communicate.
_
Brian Hausknecht
bhauskne(at)gmail.com
www.brianflys.net
www.brianflys.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Airport Bum <aa5_driver(at)yahoo.com>
Sender: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 13:31:40
cowling. Was: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention
Good marketing does not mean that the product is a good product.
I think Gary has brought a good product to market and I would trade my cowl with
lopresti nose bowl for one of Gary's cowls in a heartbeat. In my opinion,
the lopresti is a large exit ramp with a visually improved nose bowl and different
intake thrown in to justify the extreme cost. Remember that Roy is no
longer with us and lopresti is not the same without him.
Gary may not speak with the tongue of a polished marketer, but he puts a lot into
his product and it shows. Gary may not have a perfect product, but I think
if you ask those who have it, that he stands behind it very well.
You can buy hype or you can call Gary and buy a quality product.
Kevin
Brian Hausknecht wrote:
>Gary,
>Apparently the Tiger in your shop has other problems if the CHTs are at 500.
Other Lopresti nosebowl owners are quite happy. Speaking so negatively about this
mod makes me reluctant to consider working with you. Positive and polite messages
from RJ at Lopresti make me more interested in buying from them, along
with the track record they have. Never heard of a Lopresti nosebowl owner reverting
back to stock nosebowl due to problems. Even reports on your cowling are
mixed with reports of little or no improvement at a much higher cost. Buyer
beware and all, but attitude does count.
>Cheers!
>Brian
>
>
>_
>Brian Hausknecht
>bhauskne(at)gmail.com
>www.brianflys.net
>www.brianflys.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com>
>Sender: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:14:42
>To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>Reply-To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.comSubject: TeamGrumman-List: RJaguar cowling.
Was: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention
>
>I don't post to the GG.
>
>$4000 for a nose bowl that really does nothing? Amazing. I've got a Tiger in my
shop right now with the LoPresti nose bowl that has CHTs near 500 degrees. The
NACA inlet is designed all wrong. Or, let's just say, not the way it was intended.
>
>Dave will be getting out of the fabrication business next year. So, I'm in the
process of finding a new fabricator.
>
>Ned, If you'd be so kind as to post to the GG and point them toward my web site
I would be very thankful.
>
>Gary
>
>
>________________________________
> From: 923TE <923te(at)att.net>
>To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com"
>Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 6:27 AM
>Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Fwd: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention
>
>
>Gary,
>
>Might be a good time to remind Tiger owners what they can get for just a little
bit more..
>Ned
>
>From: "Ron Levy" <rblevy(at)mindspring.com>
>>Date: July 26, 2012 8:16:43 AM CDT
>>To:
>>Subject: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention
>>
>>
>Gang:
>>
>>You all saw this announcement from RJ Siegel at LoPresti a few days ago:
>>
>>
>>Hi Guys!
>>>
>>Just to remind everyone, the cowl sale ends at the close of AirVenture.
>>>
>>We have eight out of ten slots taken (So my simple brain says there are
>>>
>>two slots left.) (retail $4995? SALE $3995)
>>>
>>Also, I said I would respond to Kevin Lancaster's rave review of the new
>>>
>>60w X3 landing light with a sale for Oshkosh. So here it is: The retail
>>>
>>is $1399 and the sale for Oshkosh is $949.
>>>
>>RJ emailed me this morning to say that as a favor to AYA, the sale is being
>>extended through end of the AYA Convention next Friday, August 3.
>>
>>Thanks, RJ!
>>
>>Ron
>>(who loves his LoPresti cowl)
>>
>====================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RJaguar cowling. Was: LoPresti sale extended through |
AYA Convention
Brian,=0A=0AExcuse my honesty. =C2-But, I've spent a lot of time working
on cooling problems. =C2-A lot of time. =C2-The first LoPresti nose bow
l I ever saw was on a Tiger that was running excessive temperatures, 470+.
=C2-The problem is the way they seal around the inlet. =C2-The installe
r really needs to know what he's doing. =C2-The inlet on the LoPresti nos
e bowl doesn't provide the same sealing area the original nose bowl has.
=C2-If the cowling is installed without taking that into consideration, i
t won't seal and it won't cool.=0A=0ASome time back someone told Roy, "Desi
gn us a cowling like you did for Piper. =C2-We want round inlets. =C2-O
f course, we don't know why we want round inlets, but they look cool on tho
se Pipers and we want them too." =C2- Now, the LoPresti folks have been i
n the game a long time. =C2-And, they have done their homework. =C2-The
y know that few in the Grumman community will pay $$15,000 to $20,000 for a
complete cowling. =C2-=C2-They also know that plane owners have a maxi
mum dollar amount they are willing to spent on their planes. =C2-For Grum
mans, that's $5000 (Note: for other makes and models the maximum dollars is
different.) =C2-So, LoPresti makes a nose bowl that has round inlets tha
t look cool and it is priced right for the market. =C2-That's genius on t
heir part. =C2-LoPresti also makes a cowling for a Comanche that costs a
whole lot more than my cowling. =C2-It's a thing of beauty. =C2-But, th
en, Comanche owners are a different lot. =C2-(By-the-way, a good friend o
f mine had
a Comanche with the LoPresti cowling and prop and exhaust and tail mod and
who knows what else. =C2-He flew his plane to Florida, spent $100,000+ a
nd flew it home. =C2-He loved it. =C2-I worked on it. =C2-The cowling
fit and finish was better than anything I'd ever seen. =C2-I incorporate
d some of the ideas into my cowling.)=0A=0A=0AMy philosophy when making the
Jaguar cowling was different. =C2-I didn't sit down with a board of dire
ctors and bean counters and come up with a viable product for a particular
market. =C2-I wasn't thinking, "Where can I cut a few corners so I can ma
ke this easier and cheaper and increase my profit." =C2-I'm an engineer/s
cientist =C2-and hot rodder at heart. =C2-My goal was absolutely even C
HTs and as fast as I could go. =C2-=0A=0ARJ and his group have $5000 Grum
man niche and they can afford to cut the price $1000 and still make money.
=C2-My fabrication costs are more than he sells his nose bowl for at reta
il. =C2-I make almost nothing on the cowling. =C2-The baffles alone for
the cowling cost me almost $1000. =C2-I include them in the cost of the
cowling. =C2-I only do that because the installation takes time and the J
aguar cowling requires a Power Flow. =C2-All that adds up and most owners
won't pony up for the whole deal. =C2-=0A=0AAs for the inlet, do a littl
e research on your own. =C2-Look up Submerged inlets and look for papers
written between 1945 and 1954. =C2-Then compare. =C2-Bob Arnold would b
lock off his NACA inlet when racing and use the original inlet because the
original inlet was 2 knots faster. =C2-A properly designed NACA inlet has
almost no drag. =C2-Look at the NACA inlet for=C2-cabin air=C2-on yo
ur plane. =C2-See the lip at the entrance? =C2-Now look at the NACA inl
et LoPresti uses with the nose bowl. =C2-No lip. =C2-Again, that's the
80% rule. =C2-The cost to design that lip, with the correct entrance and
area ratio and the length to which they were restricted, for the inlet area
they needed, didn't add up. =C2-I don't make this stuff up. =C2-I repo
rt the facts. =C2-=C2-=0A=0AReports on my cowling are mixed? =C2-I gu
ess it depends on who installs mine cowling also. =C2- Still never heard
of anyone saying the Jaguar didn't cool better. =C2-=0A=0AGary, the dude
with attitude.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Brian Haus
knecht =0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: T
hursday, July 26, 2012 10:04 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RJaguar co
wling. Was: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention=0A =0A=0AGary,
=0AApparently the Tiger in your shop has other problems if the CHTs are at
500. Other Lopresti nosebowl owners are quite happy. Speaking so negativel
y about this mod makes me reluctant to consider working with you. Positive
and polite messages from RJ at Lopresti make me more interested in buying f
rom them, along with the track record they have. Never heard of a Lopresti
nosebowl owner reverting back to stock nosebowl due to problems. Even repor
ts on your cowling are mixed with reports of little or no improvement at a
much higher cost. Buyer beware and all, but attitude does count. =0ACheers!
=0ABrian=0A=0A=0A_=0ABrian Hausknecht=0Abhauskne(at)gmail.com=0Awww.brianflys.
_________=0A=0AFrom: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> =0ASender: owner-t
eamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com =0ADate: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:14:42 -07
00 (PDT)=0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com=0AReplyTo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List:
RJaguar cowling. Was: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention=0A
=0AI don't post to the G==0AG. =C2-=0A=0A$4000 for a no==0Ase bowl th
at really does nothing? =C2-Amazing. =C2-I've got a Tiger in ==0Amy s
hop right now with the LoPresti nose bowl that has CHTs near 500 degree=
=0As. =C2-The NACA inlet is designed all wrong. =C2-Or, let's just say,
no==0At the way it was intended. =C2-=0A<==0Adiv>Dave will be gettin
g out of the fabrication business next year. &==0Anbsp;So, I'm in the pro
cess of finding a new fabricator.=0A<==0Aspan>=0A=0ANed, If you'd be so k
ind as to post to the= GG and point them toward my web site I would be ve
ry thankful. =C2- =0A=0AGary=0A=0A =0A=0A____________________
____________=0A From:= 923TE <923te(at)att.net>=0A==0ATo: "teamgrumman-li
st(at)matronics.com" =0ASent: Thu==0Ars
day, July 26, 2012 6:27 AM=0ASubj==0Aect: TeamGrumman-List: Fwd: LoPresti
sale extended through AYA ==0AConvention=0A =0A=0A=0AGar==0Ay,=0A
=0AMight be a good time to remind Tiger owners wha==0At they can get for
just a little bit more..=0ANed=0A=0A=0AFrom: "Ron Levy" <rblevy@mindspring.
com>=0A>Date: ==0AJuly 26, 2012 8:16:43 AM CDT=0A>To: =0A>Subject: LoPresti sale extended through=C2- AYA Conv
en==0Ation=0A>=0A>=0AGan==0Ag:=0A>=0A>You all saw this announcement fro
m RJ S==0Aiegel at LoPresti a few days ago:=0A>=0A>=0A>Hi Guys!=0A>>=0A>J
ust to remin==0Ad everyone, the cowl sale ends at the close of AirVenture
.=0A>>=0A>>We have eight out of ten slots taken= (So my simple brain says
there are=0A>>>=0A>>two slots left.) (retail $4995? SALE $3995)=0A>>>=0A>>
>Also, I said I would respond to Kev==0Ain Lancaster's rave review of the
new=0A>>>>=0A>>>60w X3 landing light with a sale for Oshkosh. So here it
==0Ais: The retail=0A>>>>=0A>>>is $1==0A399 and the sale for Oshkosh is
$949.=0A>>>><==0Abr>RJ emailed me this morning to say that as a favor to
AYA, the sale= is being=0A>>>extended through end of the AYA Convention
next F==0Ariday, August 3.=0A>>>=0A>>>Thanks, RJ!=0A>>>=0A>>>Ron=0A>>>(wh
o loves his Lo==0APresti cowl)=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A=0A>http:/==0A=3
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D =0A=C2=C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD=C2=B2,=C3=9Eg
(=93=C5-=C3=93M4=C3=93G=C3=9Aq=C3=BC=C2=A2=C3=C3=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "=?utf-8?B?bjJfbmFyY29zaXNAeWFob28uY29t?=" <n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFRlYW1HcnVtbWFuLUxpc3Q6IFJKYWd1YXIgY293bGluZy4gIFdhczogIExv?= |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | LoPresti Business Process |
Hi Guys!
I'd like to clarify some stuff. You guys know I love Grummans. I have my ow
n small fleet. I'm attached to the brand but even more than that I love avi
ation and aviation is a very small community. Personally, I also love?how c
apitalism fosters criticism and competition. It's good for eveyone. Valid c
riticism forces us to improve our products. We've changed the fit and finis
h of our inlets?for exactly that reason. In fact, I just was told by multip
le sources we need to elongate the ducts because everyone is using the chea
per 3" gasket material. OK, I'm for that. Keep improving, keep making bette
r products.
?
As for Gary's cowl, I've gone on record several times that I like what he's
done. Gosh, he's spend a decade getting this to market and that is no smal
l feat. And I don't think we're competitiors. Different products for differ
ent purposes and different customers. I don't think Gary sees it that way,
but that's OK. He's really a good guy and I think he's a bit frustrated wit
h the lack of aknowledgement towards the value of his product.
?
In the end however, all this controversy is good. It makes you think about
your needs and weigh the expense. This just makes for better decision makin
g.
?
Cheers!
Rj
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LoPresti Business Process |
| From: | Scott Boyce <tscott165(at)centurylink.net> |
Are replacement parts available for boom beam light kit for the aa5b?
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 28, 2012, at 7:46, arjays(at)AOL.COM wrote:
> Hi Guys!
> I'd like to clarify some stuff. You guys know I love Grummans. I have my o
wn small fleet. I'm attached to the brand but even more than that I love avi
ation and aviation is a very small community. Personally, I also love how ca
pitalism fosters criticism and competition. It's good for eveyone. Valid cri
ticism forces us to improve our products. We've changed the fit and finish o
f our inlets for exactly that reason. In fact, I just was told by multiple s
ources we need to elongate the ducts because everyone is using the cheaper 3
" gasket material. OK, I'm for that. Keep improving, keep making better prod
ucts.
>
> As for Gary's cowl, I've gone on record several times that I like what he'
s done. Gosh, he's spend a decade getting this to market and that is no smal
l feat. And I don't think we're competitiors. Different products for differe
nt purposes and different customers. I don't think Gary sees it that way, bu
t that's OK. He's really a good guy and I think he's a bit frustrated with t
he lack of aknowledgement towards the value of his product.
>
> In the end however, all this controversy is good. It makes you think about
your needs and weigh the expense. This just makes for better decision makin
g.
>
> Cheers!
> Rj
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "goldpilot(at)aol.com" <goldpilot(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/27/12 |
Can somebody make msg#2 into something I can read?
Thanks,
David
Sent via mega-watt ion-burst
-----Original message-----
From: TeamGrumman-List Digest Server <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Sat, Jul 28, 2012 07:09:25 GMT+00:00
Subject: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/27/12
*
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---
Total Messages Posted Fri 07/27/12: 2
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:43 AM - Re: RJaguar cowling. Was: LoPresti sale extended through
AYA Convention (Gary Vogt)
2. 05:04 AM -
=?utf-8?B?UmU6IFRlYW1HcnVtbWFuLUxpc3Q6IFJKYWd1YXIgY293bGluZy4gIFdhczogIExv?=
=?utf-8?B?UHJlc3RpIHNhbGUgZXh0ZW5kZWQgdGhyb3VnaCAgQVlBIENvbnZlbnRpb24=?
(=?utf-8?B?bjJfbmFyY29zaXNAeWFob28uY29t?=)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RJaguar cowling. Was: LoPresti sale
extended through
AYA Convention
Brian,=0A=0AExcuse my honesty. =C2-But, I've spent a lot of time working
on cooling problems. =C2-A lot of time. =C2-The first LoPresti nose bow
l I ever saw was on a Tiger that was running excessive temperatures, 470+.
=C2-The problem is the way they seal around the inlet. =C2-The installe
r really needs to know what he's doing. =C2-The inlet on the LoPresti nos
e bowl doesn't provide the same sealing area the original nose bowl has.
=C2-If the cowling is installed without taking that into consideration, i
t won't seal and it won't cool.=0A=0ASome time back someone told Roy, "Desi
gn us a cowling like you did for Piper. =C2-We want round inlets. =C2-O
f course, we don't know why we want round inlets, but they look cool on tho
se Pipers and we want them too." =C2- Now, the LoPresti folks have been i
n the game a long time. =C2-And, they have done their homework. =C2-The
y know that few in the Grumman community will pay $$15,000 to $20,000 for a
complete cowling. =C2-=C2-They also know that plane owners have a maxi
mum dollar amount they are willing to spent on their planes. =C2-For Grum
mans, that's $5000 (Note: for other makes and models the maximum dollars is
different.) =C2-So, LoPresti makes a nose bowl that has round inlets tha
t look cool and it is priced right for the market. =C2-That's genius on t
heir part. =C2-LoPresti also makes a cowling for a Comanche that costs a
whole lot more than my cowling. =C2-It's a thing of beauty. =C2-But, th
en, Comanche owners are a different lot. =C2-(By-the-way, a good friend o
f mine had
a Comanche with the LoPresti cowling and prop and exhaust and tail mod and
who knows what else. =C2-He flew his plane to Florida, spent $100,000+ a
nd flew it home. =C2-He loved it. =C2-I worked on it. =C2-The cowling
fit and finish was better than anything I'd ever seen. =C2-I incorporate
d some of the ideas into my cowling.)=0A=0A=0AMy philosophy when making the
Jaguar cowling was different. =C2-I didn't sit down with a board of dire
ctors and bean counters and come up with a viable product for a particular
market. =C2-I wasn't thinking, "Where can I cut a few corners so I can ma
ke this easier and cheaper and increase my profit." =C2-I'm an engineer/s
cientist =C2-and hot rodder at heart. =C2-My goal was absolutely even C
HTs and as fast as I could go. =C2-=0A=0ARJ and his group have $5000 Grum
man niche and they can afford to cut the price $1000 and still make money.
=C2-My fabrication costs are more than he sells his nose bowl for at reta
il. =C2-I make almost nothing on the cowling. =C2-The baffles alone for
the cowling cost me almost $1000. =C2-I include them in the cost of the
cowling. =C2-I only do that because the installation takes time and the J
aguar cowling requires a Power Flow. =C2-All that adds up and most owners
won't pony up for the whole deal. =C2-=0A=0AAs for the inlet, do a littl
e research on your own. =C2-Look up Submerged inlets and look for papers
written between 1945 and 1954. =C2-Then compare. =C2-Bob Arnold would b
lock off his NACA inlet when racing and use the original inlet because the
original inlet was 2 knots faster. =C2-A properly designed NACA inlet has
almost no drag. =C2-Look at the NACA inlet for=C2-cabin air=C2-on yo
ur plane. =C2-See the lip at the entrance? =C2-Now look at the NACA inl
et LoPresti uses with the nose bowl. =C2-No lip. =C2-Again, that's the
80% rule. =C2-The cost to design that lip, with the correct entrance and
area ratio and the length to which they were restricted, for the inlet area
they needed, didn't add up. =C2-I don't make this stuff up. =C2-I repo
rt the facts. =C2-=C2-=0A=0AReports on my cowling are mixed? =C2-I gu
ess it depends on who installs mine cowling also. =C2- Still never heard
of anyone saying the Jaguar didn't cool better. =C2-=0A=0AGary, the dude
with attitude.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Brian Haus
knecht =0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: T
hursday, July 26, 2012 10:04 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RJaguar co
wling. Was: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention=0A =0A=0AGary,
=0AApparently the Tiger in your shop has other problems if the CHTs are at
500. Other Lopresti nosebowl owners are quite happy. Speaking so negativel
y about this mod makes me reluctant to consider working with you. Positive
and polite messages from RJ at Lopresti make me more interested in buying f
rom them, along with the track record they have. Never heard of a Lopresti
nosebowl owner reverting back to stock nosebowl due to problems. Even repor
ts on your cowling are mixed with reports of little or no improvement at a
much higher cost. Buyer beware and all, but attitude does count. =0ACheers!
=0ABrian=0A=0A=0A_=0ABrian Hausknecht=0Abhauskne(at)gmail.com=0Awww.brianflys.
_________=0A=0AFrom: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> =0ASender: owner-t
eamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com =0ADate: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:14:42 -07
00 (PDT)=0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com=0AReplyTo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List:
RJaguar cowling. Was: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention=0A
=0AI don't post to the G==0AG. =C2-=0A=0A$4000 for a no==0Ase bowl th
at really does nothing? =C2-Amazing. =C2-I've got a Tiger in ==0Amy s
hop right now with the LoPresti nose bowl that has CHTs near 500 degree
=0As. =C2-The NACA inlet is designed all wrong. =C2-Or, let's just say,
no==0At the way it was intended. =C2-=0A<==0Adiv>Dave will be gettin
g out of the fabrication business next year. &==0Anbsp;So, I'm in the pro
cess of finding a new fabricator.=0A<==0Aspan>=0A=0ANed, If you'd be so k
ind as to post to the= GG and point them toward my web site I would be ve
ry thankful. =C2- =0A=0AGary=0A=0A =0A=0A____________________
____________=0A From:= 923TE <923te(at)att.net>=0A==0ATo: "teamgrumman-li
st(at)matronics.com" =0ASent: Thu==0Ars
day, July 26, 2012 6:27 AM=0ASubj==0Aect: TeamGrumman-List: Fwd: LoPresti
sale extended through AYA ==0AConvention=0A =0A=0A=0AGar==0Ay,=0A
=0AMight be a good time to remind Tiger owners wha==0At they can get for
just a little bit more..=0ANed=0A=0A=0AFrom: "Ron Levy" <rblevy@mindspring.
com>=0A>Date: ==0AJuly 26, 2012 8:16:43 AM CDT=0A>To: =0A>Subject: LoPresti sale extended through=C2- AYA Conv
en==0Ation=0A>=0A>=0AGan==0Ag:=0A>=0A>You all saw this announcement fro
m RJ S==0Aiegel at LoPresti a few days ago:=0A>=0A>=0A>Hi Guys!=0A>>=0A>J
ust to remin==0Ad everyone, the cowl sale ends at the close of AirVenture
.=0A>>=0A>>We have eight out of ten slots taken= (So my simple brain says
there are=0A>>>=0A>>two slots left.) (retail $4995? SALE $3995)=0A>>>=0A>>
>Also, I said I would respond to Kev==0Ain Lancaster's rave review of the
new=0A>>>>=0A>>>60w X3 landing light with a sale for Oshkosh. So here it
==0Ais: The retail=0A>>>>=0A>>>is $1==0A399 and the sale for Oshkosh is
$949.=0A>>>><==0Abr>RJ emailed me this morning to say that as a favor to
AYA, the sale= is being=0A>>>extended through end of the AYA Convention
next F==0Ariday, August 3.=0A>>>=0A>>>Thanks, RJ!=0A>>>=0A>>>Ron=0A>>>(wh
o loves his Lo==0APresti cowl)=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A=0A>http:/==0A=3
3D==============
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==== =0A=C2=C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD=C2=B2,=C3=9Eg
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________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
From: "=?utf-8?B?bjJfbmFyY29zaXNAeWFob28uY29t?=" <n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: TeamGrumman-List:
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LoPresti Business Process |
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LoPresti Business Process |
| From: | Carol Stocker <stockercarolm(at)gmail.com> |
I have a LoPresti cowl on my Tiger, AA5B...and I love it--the looks, my
CHT's and EGT's are perfect....I love the look!
Carol
N28742
On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Scott Boyce wrote:
> Are replacement parts available for boom beam light kit for the aa5b?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 28, 2012, at 7:46, arjays(at)AOL.COM wrote:
>
> Hi Guys!
> I'd like to clarify some stuff. You guys know I love Grummans. I have my
> own small fleet. I'm attached to the brand but even more than that I love
> aviation and aviation is a *very* small community. Personally, I also
> love how capitalism fosters criticism and competition. It's good for
> eveyone. Valid criticism forces us to improve our products. We've changed
> the fit and finish of our inlets for exactly that reason. In fact, I just
> was told by multiple sources we need to elongate the ducts because everyone
> is using the cheaper 3" gasket material. OK, I'm for that. Keep improving,
> keep making better products.
>
> As for Gary's cowl, I've gone on record several times that I like what
> he's done. Gosh, he's spend a decade getting this to market and that is no
> small feat. And I don't think we're competitiors. Different products for
> different purposes and different customers. I don't think Gary sees it that
> way, but that's OK. He's really a good guy and I think he's a bit
> frustrated with the lack of aknowledgement towards the value of his
> product.
>
> In the end however, all this controversy is good. It makes you think about
> your needs and weigh the expense. This just makes for better decision
> making.
>
> Cheers!
> Rj
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Rosendale" <prosenda(at)bigpond.net.au> |
| Subject: | LoPresti Business Process |
Hi Rj,
You are a thorough gentleman! I met you at Oshkosh 2 years ago and was
impressed with you then and I am even more so now after reading your email
to Teamgrumman. . . extremely well said.
I have been following this forum for years and this is the first time I
have ever felt the need to write. I have owned many Grummans over the years
and love them for their simplicity and flying characteristics and it is
great to have many people coming up with improvements which add to the
betterment of our fleet.
Keep up the good work!
Peter Rosendale
Queensland, Australia
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
arjays(at)AOL.COM
Sent: Sunday, 29 July 2012 12:47 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: LoPresti Business Process
Hi Guys!
I'd like to clarify some stuff. You guys know I love Grummans. I have my own
small fleet. I'm attached to the brand but even more than that I love
aviation and aviation is a very small community. Personally, I also love how
capitalism fosters criticism and competition. It's good for eveyone. Valid
criticism forces us to improve our products. We've changed the fit and
finish of our inlets for exactly that reason. In fact, I just was told by
multiple sources we need to elongate the ducts because everyone is using the
cheaper 3" gasket material. OK, I'm for that. Keep improving, keep making
better products.
As for Gary's cowl, I've gone on record several times that I like what he's
done. Gosh, he's spend a decade getting this to market and that is no small
feat. And I don't think we're competitiors. Different products for different
purposes and different customers. I don't think Gary sees it that way, but
that's OK. He's really a good guy and I think he's a bit frustrated with the
lack of aknowledgement towards the value of his product.
In the end however, all this controversy is good. It makes you think about
your needs and weigh the expense. This just makes for better decision
making.
Cheers!
Rj
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/27/12 |
| From: | "bkspero" <bkspero(at)gmail.com> |
Goldpilot, I had similar problems viewing daily emailed compilations. The only
way I can read them all reliably is to view the web listing at Matronics:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=54
Barry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379467#379467
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention |
| From: | Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
Ned,
What sort of speed/cooling differences are you seeing with the Jaguar cowlin
g? I am planning on adding a page to my website that shows the planes with t
he Jaguar cowling and pilot/owner comments. If you have other pics, that wou
ld be good too.
Thanks. Did you still want an exhaust fairing?
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 26, 2012, at 6:27 AM, 923TE <923te(at)att.net> wrote:
> Gary,
>
> Might be a good time to remind Tiger owners what they can get for just a l
ittle bit more..
> Ned
>
>> From: "Ron Levy" <rblevy(at)mindspring.com>
>> Date: July 26, 2012 8:16:43 AM CDT
>> To:
>> Subject: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention
>>
>> Gang:
>>
>> You all saw this announcement from RJ Siegel at LoPresti a few days ago:
>>
>>> Hi Guys!
>>> Just to remind everyone, the cowl sale ends at the close of AirVenture.
>>> We have eight out of ten slots taken (So my simple brain says there are
>>> two slots left.) (retail $4995? SALE $3995)
>>> Also, I said I would respond to Kevin Lancaster's rave review of the new
>>> 60w X3 landing light with a sale for Oshkosh. So here it is: The retail
>>> is $1399 and the sale for Oshkosh is $949.
>>
>> RJ emailed me this morning to say that as a favor to AYA, the sale is bei
ng
>> extended through end of the AYA Convention next Friday, August 3.
>>
>> Thanks, RJ!
>>
>> Ron
>> (who loves his LoPresti cowl)
>>
>>
>
>
==========================
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=========
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>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LoPresti Business Process |
Thank you Peter
In turn, I appreciate your note'
Cheers!
Rj
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Kuzyk <andrew(at)entro.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention |
Gary,
How much is an exhaust fairing for the Powerflow?
Andrew
416-706-4490
On Jul 30, 2012, at 2:36 AM, Gary L Vogt wrote:
> Ned,
>
> What sort of speed/cooling differences are you seeing with the Jaguar
cowling? I am planning on adding a page to my website that shows the
planes with the Jaguar cowling and pilot/owner comments. If you have
other pics, that would be good too.
>
> Thanks. Did you still want an exhaust fairing?
>
> Gary
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 26, 2012, at 6:27 AM, 923TE <923te(at)att.net> wrote:
>
>> Gary,
>>
>> Might be a good time to remind Tiger owners what they can get for
just a little bit more..
>> Ned
>>
>>> From: "Ron Levy" <rblevy(at)mindspring.com>
>>> Date: July 26, 2012 8:16:43 AM CDT
>>> To:
>>> Subject: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention
>>>
>>> Gang:
>>>
>>> You all saw this announcement from RJ Siegel at LoPresti a few days
ago:
>>>
>>>> Hi Guys!
>>>> Just to remind everyone, the cowl sale ends at the close of
AirVenture.
>>>> We have eight out of ten slots taken (So my simple brain says there
are
>>>> two slots left.) (retail $4995? SALE $3995)
>>>> Also, I said I would respond to Kevin Lancaster's rave review of
the new
>>>> 60w X3 landing light with a sale for Oshkosh. So here it is: The
retail
>>>> is $1399 and the sale for Oshkosh is $949.
>>>
>>> RJ emailed me this morning to say that as a favor to AYA, the sale
is being
>>> extended through end of the AYA Convention next Friday, August 3.
>>>
>>> Thanks, RJ!
>>>
>>> Ron
>>> (who loves his LoPresti cowl)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ========================
>> t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> ========================
>> cs.com
>> ========================
>> matronics.com/contribution
>> ========================
>>
>
>
>
NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY. This communication, including any information
transmitted with it, is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) and
is confidential. If you are not an intended recipient or responsible for
delivering the message to an intended recipient, any review, disclosure,
conversion to hard copy, dissemination, reproduction or other use of any
part of this communication is strictly prohibited, as is the taking or o
mitting of any action in reliance upon this communication. If you receive
d this communication in error or without authorization please notify us i
mmediately by return e-mail or otherwise and permanently delete the entir
e communication from any computer, disk drive, or other storage medium.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Power Flow Exhaust Fairing. |
| From: | Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
Andrew,
The fairing is $75 and the shipping is $25. UPS has gone up considerably.
If you don't care about tracking numbers, I can find a Postal priority box t
o fit it.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 30, 2012, at 11:59 AM, Andrew Kuzyk wrote:
> Gary,
>
> How much is an exhaust fairing for the Powerflow?
>
> Andrew
> 416-706-4490
>
> On Jul 30, 2012, at 2:36 AM, Gary L Vogt wrote:
>
>> Ned,
>>
>> What sort of speed/cooling differences are you seeing with the Jaguar cow
ling? I am planning on adding a page to my website that shows the planes wi
th the Jaguar cowling and pilot/owner comments. If you have other pics, that
would be good too.
>>
>> Thanks. Did you still want an exhaust fairing?
>>
>> Gary
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Jul 26, 2012, at 6:27 AM, 923TE <923te(at)att.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Gary,
>>>
>>> Might be a good time to remind Tiger owners what they can get for just a
little bit more..
>>> Ned
>>>
>>>> From: "Ron Levy" <rblevy(at)mindspring.com>
>>>> Date: July 26, 2012 8:16:43 AM CDT
>>>> To:
>>>> Subject: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention
>>>>
>>>> Gang:
>>>>
>>>> You all saw this announcement from RJ Siegel at LoPresti a few days ago
:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Guys!
>>>>> Just to remind everyone, the cowl sale ends at the close of AirVenture
.
>>>>> We have eight out of ten slots taken (So my simple brain says there ar
e
>>>>> two slots left.) (retail $4995? SALE $3995)
>>>>> Also, I said I would respond to Kevin Lancaster's rave review of the n
ew
>>>>> 60w X3 landing light with a sale for Oshkosh. So here it is: The retai
l
>>>>> is $1399 and the sale for Oshkosh is $949.
>>>>
>>>> RJ emailed me this morning to say that as a favor to AYA, the sale is b
eing
>>>> extended through end of the AYA Convention next Friday, August 3.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, RJ!
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>> (who loves his LoPresti cowl)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> =========
>>> t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>>> =========
>>> cs.com
>>> =========
>>> matronics.com/contribution
>>> =========
>>>
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution
>>
>
>
> NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY. This communication, including any information t
ransmitted with it, is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) and is c
onfidential. If you are not an intended recipient or responsible for deliver
ing the message to an intended recipient, any review, disclosure, conversion
to hard copy, dissemination, reproduction or other use of any part of this c
ommunication is strictly prohibited, as is the taking or omitting of any act
ion in reliance upon this communication. If you received this communication i
n error or without authorization please notify us immediately by return e-ma
il or otherwise and permanently delete the entire communication from any com
puter, disk drive, or other storage medium.
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "goldpilot(at)aol.com" <goldpilot(at)AOL.COM> |
| Subject: | Fw: Watsonville Fly In Aircraft Parking Volunteers |
David
Sent via mega-watt ion-burst
-----Original message-----
From: Dan Kelsey <coupe415e(at)yahoo.com>
, "rampdave(at)aol.com" , Michael
Zazzera , Steve Hanson ,
"petewoodruff(at)att.net" , Steve Pflock
, Greg Abbey ,
"twj007(at)yahoo.com" , "jerryraskopf(at)att.net"
, "yoshimi.allard(at)us.army.mil"
, "skytug(at)yahoo.com" ,
"birdtreeman(at)comcast.net" ,
"haroldmcdill(at)hotmail.com" , "pfernell(at)aol.com"
, "mike.corder(at)sbcglobal.net" ,
"trinidad.valdivia(at)supervalu.com" ,
"anthonyoliveira831(at)yahoo.com" , "eb(at)ieee.org"
, "rob_roberson(at)msn.com" , Jacob Alaburda
, Craig Louis , Keith Johnson
, "goldpilot(at)aol.com" , Andy Orgain
, Ted Ziemba ,
"geoff(at)midstateinvestigations.com" ,
"gonflying(at)aol.com"
Sent: Tue, Jul 31, 2012 02:54:16 GMT+00:00
Subject: Watsonville Fly In Aircraft Parking Volunteers
How's it going group? Hope you all had a great year since we worked together
last.
32 days until the Watsonville Fly In. If you have nothing better to do on
Labor Day weekend we could use a little help parking airplanes.The Airshow
is Aug 31, Sept. 1-2.
All visiting aircraft, display, camping, or whatever will fly-in for free.
No cost to the pilot or the passengers. What that means is that none of us
have a clue if this will bring in more aircraft. It could be pretty
interesting this year.
If you would like to help, give me a call at 831-713-5213 or send an email
with the day/days you would like to work.
We will have a volunteer meeting the Sunday before the Airshow. Sunday Aug
26th, EAA hanger at Watsonville airport, noon. Same place as last year. If
you need directions let me know.
Cheers
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ronald Millman CPA <ronmillmancpa(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Fw: Watsonville Fly In Aircraft Parking Volunteers |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Kelsey" <Phil(at)ReliantAir.com> |
| Subject: | Power Flow Exhaust Fairing. |
Gary, is the fairing you refer to for the jaguar cowl?
P. J. Kelsey
Vice President/Co-owner
ReliantAir
Cell: 203-731-1781
Tel: 203-743-5100
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary L
Vogt
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 01:43
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Power Flow Exhaust Fairing.
Andrew,
The fairing is $75 and the shipping is $25. UPS has gone up considerably.
If you don't care about tracking numbers, I can find a Postal priority box
to fit it.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 30, 2012, at 11:59 AM, Andrew Kuzyk wrote:
Gary,
How much is an exhaust fairing for the Powerflow?
Andrew
416-706-4490
On Jul 30, 2012, at 2:36 AM, Gary L Vogt wrote:
Ned,
What sort of speed/cooling differences are you seeing with the Jaguar
cowling? I am planning on adding a page to my website that shows the planes
with the Jaguar cowling and pilot/owner comments. If you have other pics,
that would be good too.
Thanks. Did you still want an exhaust fairing?
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 26, 2012, at 6:27 AM, 923TE <923te(at)att.net> wrote:
Gary,
Might be a good time to remind Tiger owners what they can get for just a
little bit more..
Ned
From: "Ron Levy" <rblevy(at)mindspring.com>
Date: July 26, 2012 8:16:43 AM CDT
Subject: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention
Gang:
You all saw this announcement from RJ Siegel at LoPresti a few days ago:
Hi Guys!
Just to remind everyone, the cowl sale ends at the close of AirVenture.
We have eight out of ten slots taken (So my simple brain says there are
two slots left.) (retail $4995? SALE $3995)
Also, I said I would respond to Kevin Lancaster's rave review of the new
60w X3 landing light with a sale for Oshkosh. So here it is: The retail
is $1399 and the sale for Oshkosh is $949.
RJ emailed me this morning to say that as a favor to AYA, the sale is being
extended through end of the AYA Convention next Friday, August 3.
Thanks, RJ!
Ron
(who loves his LoPresti cowl)
=========
t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
=========
cs.com
=========
matronics.com/contribution
=========
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri
bution
NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY. This communication, including any information
transmitted with it, is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) and is
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matron
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Power Flow Exhaust Fairing. |
| From: | Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
Yes, it will fit any cowling. The idea is to fair some of the air around the
pipe. The inner wall needs to be nearly parallel with the airflow. The oute
r wall tapers toward the inside.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 1, 2012, at 5:57 AM, "Phil Kelsey" wrote:
> Gary, is the fairing you refer to for the jaguar cowl?
>
> P. J. Kelsey
> Vice President/Co-owner
> ReliantAir
> Cell: 203-731-1781
> Tel: 203-743-5100
>
>
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary L Vogt
> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 01:43
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Power Flow Exhaust Fairing.
>
> Andrew,
>
> The fairing is $75 and the shipping is $25. UPS has gone up considerably.
>
> If you don't care about tracking numbers, I can find a Postal priority box
to fit it.
>
> Gary
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 30, 2012, at 11:59 AM, Andrew Kuzyk wrote:
>
> Gary,
>
> How much is an exhaust fairing for the Powerflow?
>
> Andrew
> 416-706-4490
>
> On Jul 30, 2012, at 2:36 AM, Gary L Vogt wrote:
>
>
> Ned,
>
> What sort of speed/cooling differences are you seeing with the Jaguar cowl
ing? I am planning on adding a page to my website that shows the planes wit
h the Jaguar cowling and pilot/owner comments. If you have other pics, that w
ould be good too.
>
> Thanks. Did you still want an exhaust fairing?
>
> Gary
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 26, 2012, at 6:27 AM, 923TE <923te(at)att.net> wrote:
>
> Gary,
>
> Might be a good time to remind Tiger owners what they can get for just a l
ittle bit more..
> Ned
>
> From: "Ron Levy" <rblevy(at)mindspring.com>
> Date: July 26, 2012 8:16:43 AM CDT
> To:
> Subject: LoPresti sale extended through AYA Convention
>
> Gang:
>
> You all saw this announcement from RJ Siegel at LoPresti a few days ago:
>
>
> Hi Guys!
> Just to remind everyone, the cowl sale ends at the close of AirVenture.
> We have eight out of ten slots taken (So my simple brain says there are
> two slots left.) (retail $4995? SALE $3995)
> Also, I said I would respond to Kevin Lancaster's rave review of the new
> 60w X3 landing light with a sale for Oshkosh. So here it is: The retail
> is $1399 and the sale for Oshkosh is $949.
>
> RJ emailed me this morning to say that as a favor to AYA, the sale is bein
g
> extended through end of the AYA Convention next Friday, August 3.
>
> Thanks, RJ!
>
> Ron
> (who loves his LoPresti cowl)
>
>
>
>
> =========
> t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> =========
> cs.com
> =========
> matronics.com/contribution
> =========
>
>
>
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ntribution
>
>
>
> NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY. This communication, including any information t
ransmitted with it, is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) and is c
onfidential. If you are not an intended recipient or responsible for deliver
ing the message to an intended recipient, any review, disclosure, conversion
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ommunication is strictly prohibited, as is the taking or omitting of any act
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n error or without authorization please notify us immediately by return e-ma
il or otherwise and permanently delete the entire communication from any com
puter, disk drive, or other storage medium.
>
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>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Power Flow Exhaust Fairing. |
=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Phil Kelsey <Phil@Rel
iantAir.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, Augus
t 1, 2012 5:57 AM=0ASubject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Power Flow Exhaust Fairi
ng. =0A =0A=0A =0AGary, is the fairing you refer to for the jaguar cowl?=0A
-=0AP. J.=0AKelsey=0AVice President/Co-owner=0AReliantAir=0ACell: 203-731
-1781=0ATel:- 203-743-5100=0A-=0A-=0A-=0AFrom:owner-teamgrumman-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.co
m] On Behalf Of Gary L=0AVogt=0ASent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 01:43=0ATo: te
amgrumman-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: Power Flow Exhaus
t Fairing. =0A-=0AAndrew,=0A-=0AThe fairing is $75 and the shipping is
$25. UPS has gone up=0Aconsiderably.-=0A-=0AIf you don't care about=0At
racking numbers, I can find a Postal priority box to fit it.-=0AGary=0ASe
nt from my iPad=0A=0AOn Jul 30, 2012, at 11:59 AM, Andrew Kuzyk =0Awrote:=0AGary,=0A>-=0A>-How much is an exhaust fairing for th
e Powerflow?=0A>-=0A>Andrew=0A>416-706-4490=0A>-=0A>On Jul 30, 2012, at
2:36 AM, Gary L Vogt wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Ned,-=0A>-=0A>What sort of
speed/cooling differences are you seeing with=0Athe Jaguar cowling? -I am
planning on adding a page to my website that=0Ashows the planes with the J
aguar cowling and pilot/owner comments. If you have=0Aother pics, that woul
d be good too.-=0A>-=0A>Thanks. Did you still want an=0Aexhaust fairing
?=0A>Gary=0A>Sent from my iPad=0A>=0A>On Jul 26, 2012, at 6:27 AM, 923TE <9
23te(at)att.net>=0Awrote:=0A>Gary,=0A>>-=0A>>Might be a good time to remind
Tiger owners what they can=0Aget for just a little bit more..=0A>>Ned=0A>>
-=0A>>From: "Ron=0ALevy" <rblevy(at)mindspring.com>=0A>>>Date: July 26, 2012
LoPresti sale extended through- AYA Convention=0A>>Gang:=0A>>>=0A>>>You a
ll saw this announcement from RJ Siegel at LoPresti a few days ago:=0A>>>
=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Hi Guys!=0A>>>Just to remind everyone, the cowl sale ends
at the close of=0AAirVenture.=0A>>>We have eight out of ten slots taken (S
o my simple brain=0Asays there are=0A>>>two slots left.) (retail $4995? SAL
E $3995)=0A>>>Also, I said I would respond to Kevin Lancaster's rave=0Arevi
ew of the new=0A>>>60w X3 landing light with a sale for Oshkosh. So here it
is:=0AThe retail=0A>>>is $1399 and the sale for Oshkosh is $949.=0A>>>=0A>
>>RJ emailed me this morning to say that as a favor to AYA, the sale is bei
ng=0A>>>extended through end of the AYA Convention next Friday, August 3.
=0A>>>=0A>>>Thanks, RJ!=0A>>>=0A>>>Ron=0A>>>(who loves his LoPresti cowl)
=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>-=0A>>-=0A>>===========0A>>t">http
://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0A>>=======
====0A>>cs.com=0A>>===========0A>>matronics.com/c
ontribution=0A>>===========0A>>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>hre
f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matron
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>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>href="http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>NOTICE OF
CONFIDENTIALITY. This communication, including any information transmitted
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rd copy, dissemination, reproduction or other use of any part of this commu
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in reliance upon this communication. If you received this communication in
error or without authorization please notify us immediately by return e-ma
il or otherwise and permanently delete the entire communication from any co
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ttp://forums.matronics.com=0A>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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//www.matronics.com/contribution=0A-=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A======
==0AEmail scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.=0A(Email Gua
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Fw: For the active and retired pilots among us |
=0A=0A=0A----- Forwarded Message -----=0AFrom: Bert Gilling <bertgilling@ho
tmail.com>=0ATo: "Gary Vogt, and Clytie" =0ASent: T
hursday, August 2, 2012 12:32 AM=0ASubject: For the active and retired pilo
ts among us=0A =0A=0A=0A>What Can One Say?=0A>-=0A>-=0A>- =0A>=0A>-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Troup <david(at)troup.net> |
To the guy who requested removal from the email list... instructions on
managing your subscription are at the bottom of every single email that
comes from the list, including the one that you included in your
message. To save you the trouble of looking, the link you need is here:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
Sending a message to a whole list of people asking "somebody" to do
something you could more easily do yourself is a little silly.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fw: For the active and retired pilots among us |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Gary:
Would you make this picture an attachment. I can not copy it and would
like to save it as a .JPG picture.
Thanks,
Barry
On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
> ----- Forwarded Message -----
> *From:* Bert Gilling
> *To:* "Gary Vogt, and Clytie"
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 2, 2012 12:32 AM
> *Subject:* For the active and retired pilots among us
>
> *
> **What Can One Say?*****
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fw: For the active and retired pilots among us |
| From: | Carol Stocker <stockercarolm(at)gmail.com> |
Here you go....:)
On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 10:59 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Gary:
>
> Would you make this picture an attachment. I can not copy it and would
> like to save it as a .JPG picture.
>
> Thanks,
> Barry
>
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
>>
>> ----- Forwarded Message -----
>> *From:* Bert Gilling
>> *To:* "Gary Vogt, and Clytie"
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 2, 2012 12:32 AM
>> *Subject:* For the active and retired pilots among us
>>
>> *
>> **What Can One Say?*****
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 1978 Tiger for sale |
| From: | Rick Young <rbyoung99(at)gmail.com> |
Gary,
Did this plan sell.
Thanks
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 7, 2012, at 10:01 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> Asking $85,000. I think he's motivated.
>
> From: halb221 <halb221(at)centurylink.net>
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, April 7, 2012 6:11 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: 1978 Tiger for sale
>
> Hello Gary, I showed the pictures of the Tiger your help selling and have a
friend interested, so what is the asking price?
>
> Hal Beauchesne Tiger N920GT Enterprise AL. 334-347-7360 or 334-301-9641
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gary Vogt
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2012 10:44 PM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: 1978 Tiger for sale
>
> I'm on line now.
>
> From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, April 6, 2012 1:00 PM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: 1978 Tiger for sale
>
> Gary:
>
> Are you online?
>
> Would like to talk.
>
> Barry
>
> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lofollow" target="_blank"
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 1978 Tiger for sale |
Yes, Rick, it sold a long time ago.=0A=0A=0A_______________________________
_=0A From: Rick Young <rbyoung99(at)gmail.com>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list@matroni
cs.com" =0ASent: Thursday, August 16, 2012
10:04 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: 1978 Tiger for sale=0A =0A=0AGar
y,=0A=0ADid this plan sell. -=0A=0AThanks=0A=0ASent from my iPad=0A=0AOn
Apr 7, 2012, at 10:01 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A=0A=0A
Asking $85,000. -I think he's motivated.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>_________________
_______________=0A> From: halb221 <halb221(at)centurylink.net>=0A>To: teamgrum
man-list(at)matronics.com =0A>Sent: Saturday, April 7, 2012 6:11 AM=0A>Subject
: Re: TeamGrumman-List: 1978 Tiger for sale=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>Hello Gary, I
showed the pictures of the Tiger your =0Ahelp selling and have a friend int
erested, so what is the asking =0Aprice?=0A>-=0A>Hal Beauchesne Tiger N92
0GT Enterprise AL.- =0A334-347-7360 or 334-301-9641=0A>----- Original Mes
sage ----- =0A>>From: Gary Vogt =0A>>To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
=0A>>Sent: Friday, April 06, 2012 10:44 PM=0A>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-Li
st: 1978 Tiger for sale=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>I'm on line now.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>
________________________________=0A>> From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
=0A>>To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0A>>Sent: Friday, April 6, 2012 1
:00 PM=0A>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: 1978 Tiger for sale=0A>>=0A>>=0A
>>Gary: =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Are you online?=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Would like to talk.=0A
>>=0A>>=0A>>Barry=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Gary Vogt <
teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>href="http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
TeamGrumman-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matroni
cs.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.
com/c =0A>>No virus found in this message.=0A>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.c
om=0A>>Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus =0A Database: 2409/4919 - Release Date
: 04/06/12=0A>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lofollow" targ
et="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h =0A>=0A>=0A>
===========0At">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Team
Grumman-List=0A====================
=============== cs.com =======
=== matronics.com/contribution=0A============
===============
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GOLDPILOT(at)AOL.COM |
| Subject: | Re: NOTAM Re: Watsonville Airport |
Finally! The new airport restaurant just opened. Called Props. Totally
refurbished. Great new menu, great new owners.
The terminal has also been totally redone.
Time for a visit. Lets plan a lunch.
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NOTAM Re: Watsonville Airport |
| From: | n32romeo(at)AOL.COM |
Flew down there a week ago. Did not have time to try the restaurant, had t
he wife and 3 dogs looking to get out of the heat inland. But when flying
in be careful as there is also a new jump zone about 1 mile NE that is not
on the chart yet.
Rich
-----Original Message-----
From: GOLDPILOT <GOLDPILOT(at)AOL.COM>
Sent: Mon, Aug 20, 2012 8:41 pm
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: NOTAM Re: Watsonville Airport
Finally! The new airport restaurant just opened. Called Props. Totally r
efurbished. Great new menu, great new owners.
The terminal has also been totally redone.
Time for a visit. Lets plan a lunch.
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ronald Millman CPA <ronmillmancpa(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: NOTAM Re: Watsonville Airport |
Super!my wings should be done being painted by next week.How about Tuesday
=2C August 28. See you there @ Watsonville.about 11: a.m.?Ron.
From: GOLDPILOT(at)AOL.COM
Date: Mon=2C 20 Aug 2012 23:39:32 -0400
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: NOTAM Re: Watsonville Airport
Finally! The new airport restaurant just opened. Called
Props. Totally refurbished. Great new menu=2C great
new owners.
The terminal has also been totally redone.
Time for a visit. Lets plan a lunch.
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Cowling price change |
For the past several weeks I've been revamping the cowling page on www.AuCo
untry.com. -If you haven't visited it for a while, check it out. -The p
ic on the front (home) page also takes you to the Jaguar Cowling page now.
-I've added testimonials from those who are flying behind a JagCowl. -I
've also added a page with pricing and added some pricing options. -=0A
=0AFor those of you on TeamGrumman-List who have been sitting on the fence
about buying a Jaguar Cowling, effective 1 December 2012, the price of the
cowling is going up. -You can see the new prices on my web site. -If yo
u know anyone on the gg who may want a JagCowl, let them know about the upc
oming price change.=0A=0AGary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Updated the web site a gain |
Feedback????
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | leaking fuel drain |
Several months ago I fixed the other side. -It was also beat to death wit
h a rivet gun. -Here are some pics. -The inside has an indent for where
the nutplate was. -The outside has an impression of where the drain reli
ef is cut on the nutplate. -It also looks like the hole has been beveled
out. -(unless the 76 had a different drain) -Someone had fabricated a g
asket to seal the drain. -Creative?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "goldpilot(at)aol.com" <goldpilot(at)AOL.COM> |
| Subject: | Watsonville airshow, today, Saturday, Sunday |
There is a Grumman row at the Watsonville Airshow. So fly in but check
NOTAM's first.
David
Fly low, fly fast, turn left!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Kelsey" <Phil(at)ReliantAir.com> |
| Subject: | FW: Jaguar cowling |
Gary asked that I post my jaguar cowling thoughts/results for you all to
read. I field installed the cowling in late 2011 finally doing the
first flight in December 2011. Since then I have flown my 1979 Tiger
about 150 hours. I commute from Connecticut to South Carolina plus my
pilots use the plane when I=99m not. Feel free to email me with
any questions.
Phil Kelsey
Reliant Air
Danbury, CT
Cowling and baffle install:
I found the overall quality of the cowling as delivered to be excellent.
I probably spent well over 120 hours installing it but that=99s
in part due to not being able to devote full time to fitting and
installing.. The baffling parts all fit well except for the right rear
transition for the air filter duct. Spent considerable time getting it
to fit exactly the way I wanted it. I also wanted to have a flush
landing light cover so I fabricated it out of lexan. I used a camloc in
the front instead of a screw. It worked out really well. I did have to
fabricate my own front top of engine to cowl baffling. I also used 10
pound struts to hold the cowl lids open. They are designed so that they
are over center therefore applying slight closing pressure on the cowl
lid when it is closed.
Performance.
My Tiger is equipped with EI gauges and all before and after readings
are from the EI gauges. All reading are averages in level flight at 2650
rpm over the last 18 months or about 150 hours of flying.
Altitude
IAS
OAT =81=B0F
Fuel Flow
TAS
#1 CYL/EGT
#2 CYL/EGT
#3 CYL/EGT
#3 CYL/EGT
PowerFlow only
6500
120
60
11.4
140
327/1283
344/1388
371/1326
376/1310
Powerflow and Cowl
6500
129
36
12.0
142
327/1490
332/1444
336/1413
322/1336
I really have only seen a small speed increase with the cow (about 2
knots)l. I have seen a dramatic decrease in the spread between hottest
and coldest cylinders. The cowling takes me less than half the time to
remove and install versus the old one. It seems to be holding up very
well. I did use the new baffling material from aircraft spruce which
has a Teflon coating on one side which seems to help chafing.
I was concerned with landing light replacement so I installed an LED one
which should last pretty much forever.
I am glad I installed the cowl, would do it again. It wasn=99t
inexpensive but what in aviation is.
GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 002.jpgGRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 007.jpgGRUMMAN COWL
INSTALL 018.jpg
GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 009.jpgGRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 004.jpgGRUMMAN COWL
INSTALL 006.jpg
GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 014.jpgGRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 016.jpgGRUMMAN COWL
INSTALL 019.jpg
======
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | FW: Jaguar cowling |
| From: | "Hosler, John" <JHOSLER(at)epri.com> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Kelsey" <Phil(at)ReliantAir.com> |
| Subject: | FW: Jaguar cowling |
Yes, it=99s the standard configuration although I believe you can
also not split the cowl. I like the access the standard configuration
gives you for preflight.
Phil
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Hosler, John
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 12:30
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: FW: Jaguar cowling
Phil:
The cowling looks great. I notice that you can open each side of the top
cowling individually (as in original design). Is this configuration
standard for the Jaguar cowling or did you have to modify it?
John Hosler
(Statesville, NC)
=======
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | FW: Jaguar cowling |
| From: | "Hosler, John" <JHOSLER(at)epri.com> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FW: Jaguar cowling |
| From: | Carol Stocker <stockercarolm(at)gmail.com> |
That really looks nice!!
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Phil Kelsey wrote:
> ** **
>
> Gary asked that I post my jaguar cowling thoughts/results for you all to
> read. I field installed the cowling in late 2011 finally doing the first
> flight in December 2011. Since then I have flown my 1979 Tiger about 150
hours. I commute from Connecticut to South Carolina plus my pilots use the
> plane when I=99m not. Feel free to email me with any questions.***
*
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Phil Kelsey****
>
> Reliant Air****
>
> Danbury, CT****
>
> * *
>
> *Cowling and baffle install:*****
>
> * *****
>
> I found the overall quality of the cowling as delivered to be excellent.
> I probably spent well over 120 hours installing it but that=99s in
part due
> to not being able to devote full time to fitting and installing.. The
> baffling parts all fit well except for the right rear transition for the
> air filter duct. Spent considerable time getting it to fit exactly the w
ay
> I wanted it. I also wanted to have a flush landing light cover so I
> fabricated it out of lexan. I used a camloc in the front instead of a
> screw. It worked out really well. I did have to fabricate my own front
> top of engine to cowl baffling. I also used 10 pound struts to hold the
> cowl lids open. They are designed so that they are over center therefore
> applying slight closing pressure on the cowl lid when it is closed. ****
>
> ****
>
> *Performance.*****
>
> ****
>
> My Tiger is equipped with EI gauges and all before and after readings ar
e
> from the EI gauges. All reading are averages in level flight at 2650 rpm
> over the last 18 months or about 150 hours of flying.****
>
> ****
>
> Altitude****
>
> IAS****
>
> OAT =81=B0F****
>
> Fuel Flow****
>
> TAS****
>
> #1 CYL/EGT****
>
> #2 CYL/EGT****
>
> #3 CYL/EGT****
>
> #3 CYL/EGT****
>
> PowerFlow only****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> 6500****
>
> 120****
>
> 60****
>
> 11.4****
>
> 140****
>
> 327/1283****
>
> 344/1388****
>
> 371/1326****
>
> 376/1310****
>
> Powerflow and Cowl****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> 6500****
>
> 129****
>
> 36****
>
> 12.0****
>
> 142****
>
> 327/1490****
>
> 332/1444****
>
> 336/1413****
>
> 322/1336****
>
> ****
>
> I really have only seen a small speed increase with the cow (about 2
> knots)l. I have seen a dramatic decrease in the spread between hottest a
nd
> coldest cylinders. The cowling takes me less than half the time to remov
e
> and install versus the old one. It seems to be holding up very well. I
> did use the new baffling material from aircraft spruce which has a Teflon
> coating on one side which seems to help chafing.****
>
> ****
>
> I was concerned with landing light replacement so I installed an LED one
> which should last pretty much forever.****
>
> ****
>
> I am glad I installed the cowl, would do it again. It wasn=99t in
expensive
> but what in aviation is.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> [image: GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 002.jpg][image: GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 007.jpg
][image:
> GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 018.jpg]****
>
> [image: GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 009.jpg][image: GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 004.jpg
][image:
> GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 006.jpg]****
>
> [image: GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 014.jpg][image: GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 016.jpg
][image:
> GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 019.jpg]****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
>
> ======
> Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
> (Email Guard: 9.0.0.2308, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.20620)
> http://www.pctools.com
51>
> ======= ****
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FW: Jaguar cowling |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hello Phil:
Using your supplied numbers, there is an inconsistency. I don't know if
that is the proper term but further investigation is required.
All your EGT reading went UP and your GPH also went UP. If you were to
hold the same altitude and lean in both flights to the same EGT [at least
on one cylinder] the numbers would be more comparable.
Examples:
1 - EGT - Usually cylinders #3 & 4 run the hottest on both CHT & EGT yet in
your second flight the EGT was hotter than the first flight. They ALL
increased - And Cyl #2 jumped UP a whooping 207 F.
And - The OAT was just about HALF of that of the first flight.
And - There was a very slight increase in fuel flow - Less than 1%
If fuel flow increases the EGT usually drops.
IF your timing was off more raw fuel could been dumped into the exhaust and
that could account for higher EGT's.
2 - CHT - Well, there you did pretty good. There was a DROP in CHT on #2,
3 & 4 but #1 remained the same. WHY?
OAT was lower and speed was higher as well as the fuel flow being slightly
higher.
All of thei s should be reflected in lower CHT's
3 - Now let's take a look at temp spreads:
Flight #1 Delta of CHT was: 49 F
Flight #2 Delta of CHT was: 14 F
This would indicated a BETTER uniform flow of air with the cowl.
And since there was a reduction in CHT [all but Cyl #1] I would say the
cowling is doing good.
Flight #1 Delta of EGT was: 105 F
Flight #2 Delta of EGT was: 154 F
I don't know what this indicates...
My first guess and it really is that a guess; is your baffling needs some
work, not much just some. I sew the overlaps of the side and back rubber
seal together. In such a manor that there is no space and they are sprung
up to force against the cowl.
How is the baffling between and under the cylinders?
What do the ware marks of the baffling against the cowl show, are they
uniform without any spaces?
Any idea why the jump in EGT's from First Flight to Second?
The cowl seems to be working.
Are you flying in the Power Band of the Power Flow Exhaust?
AHhhh! That brings up another question: Why the INCREASE on fuel flow -
Doesn't PF advertise a reduction in fuel flow?
Barry
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Phil Kelsey wrote:
> ** **
>
> Gary asked that I post my jaguar cowling thoughts/results for you all to
> read. I field installed the cowling in late 2011 finally doing the first
> flight in December 2011. Since then I have flown my 1979 Tiger about 150
hours. I commute from Connecticut to South Carolina plus my pilots use the
> plane when I=99m not. Feel free to email me with any questions.***
*
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Phil Kelsey****
>
> Reliant Air****
>
> Danbury, CT****
>
> * *
>
> *Cowling and baffle install:*****
>
> * *****
>
> I found the overall quality of the cowling as delivered to be excellent.
> I probably spent well over 120 hours installing it but that=99s in
part due
> to not being able to devote full time to fitting and installing.. The
> baffling parts all fit well except for the right rear transition for the
> air filter duct. Spent considerable time getting it to fit exactly the w
ay
> I wanted it. I also wanted to have a flush landing light cover so I
> fabricated it out of lexan. I used a camloc in the front instead of a
> screw. It worked out really well. I did have to fabricate my own front
> top of engine to cowl baffling. I also used 10 pound struts to hold the
> cowl lids open. They are designed so that they are over center therefore
> applying slight closing pressure on the cowl lid when it is closed. ****
>
> ****
>
> *Performance.*****
>
> ****
>
> My Tiger is equipped with EI gauges and all before and after readings ar
e
> from the EI gauges. All reading are averages in level flight at 2650 rpm
> over the last 18 months or about 150 hours of flying.****
>
> ****
>
> Altitude****
>
> IAS****
>
> OAT =81=B0F****
>
> Fuel Flow****
>
> TAS****
>
> #1 CYL/EGT****
>
> #2 CYL/EGT****
>
> #3 CYL/EGT****
>
> #3 CYL/EGT****
>
> PowerFlow only****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> 6500****
>
> 120****
>
> 60****
>
> 11.4****
>
> 140****
>
> 327/1283****
>
> 344/1388****
>
> 371/1326****
>
> 376/1310****
>
> Powerflow and Cowl****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> 6500****
>
> 129****
>
> 36****
>
> 12.0****
>
> 142****
>
> 327/1490****
>
> 332/1444****
>
> 336/1413****
>
> 322/1336****
>
> ****
>
> I really have only seen a small speed increase with the cow (about 2
> knots)l. I have seen a dramatic decrease in the spread between hottest a
nd
> coldest cylinders. The cowling takes me less than half the time to remov
e
> and install versus the old one. It seems to be holding up very well. I
> did use the new baffling material from aircraft spruce which has a Teflon
> coating on one side which seems to help chafing.****
>
> ****
>
> I was concerned with landing light replacement so I installed an LED one
> which should last pretty much forever.****
>
> ****
>
> I am glad I installed the cowl, would do it again. It wasn=99t in
expensive
> but what in aviation is.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> [image: GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 002.jpg][image: GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 007.jpg
][image:
> GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 018.jpg]****
>
> [image: GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 009.jpg][image: GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 004.jpg
][image:
> GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 006.jpg]****
>
> [image: GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 014.jpg][image: GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 016.jpg
][image:
> GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 019.jpg]****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
>
> ======
> Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
> (Email Guard: 9.0.0.2308, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.20620)
> http://www.pctools.com
51>
> ======= ****
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FW: Jaguar cowling |
| From: | Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
The standard configuration keeps the same split upper cowling. View some of t
he pics on AuCountry.com.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 16, 2012, at 9:30 AM, "Hosler, John" wrote:
> Phil:
>
> The cowling looks great. I notice that you can open each side of the top c
owling individually (as in original design). Is this configuration standard
for the Jaguar cowling or did you have to modify it?
>
> John Hosler
> (Statesville, NC)
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil Kelsey
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 11:09 AM
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: FW: Jaguar cowling
>
>
> Gary asked that I post my jaguar cowling thoughts/results for you all to r
ead. I field installed the cowling in late 2011 finally doing the first fli
ght in December 2011. Since then I have flown my 1979 Tiger about 150 hours
. I commute from Connecticut to South Carolina plus my pilots use the plane
when I=99m not. Feel free to email me with any questions.
>
>
> Phil Kelsey
> Reliant Air
> Danbury, CT
>
> Cowling and baffle install:
>
> I found the overall quality of the cowling as delivered to be excellent. I
probably spent well over 120 hours installing it but that=99s in part
due to not being able to devote full time to fitting and installing.. The b
affling parts all fit well except for the right rear transition for the air f
ilter duct. Spent considerable time getting it to fit exactly the way I wan
ted it. I also wanted to have a flush landing light cover so I fabricated i
t out of lexan. I used a camloc in the front instead of a screw. It worked
out really well. I did have to fabricate my own front top of engine to cow
l baffling. I also used 10 pound struts to hold the cowl lids open. They a
re designed so that they are over center therefore applying slight closing p
ressure on the cowl lid when it is closed.
>
> Performance.
>
> My Tiger is equipped with EI gauges and all before and after readings are
from the EI gauges. All reading are averages in level flight at 2650 rpm ov
er the last 18 months or about 150 hours of flying.
>
> Altitude
> IAS
> OAT =81=B0F
> Fuel Flow
> TAS
> #1 CYL/EGT
> #2 CYL/EGT
> #3 CYL/EGT
> #3 CYL/EGT
> PowerFlow only
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 6500
> 120
> 60
> 11.4
> 140
> 327/1283
> 344/1388
> 371/1326
> 376/1310
> Powerflow and Cowl
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 6500
> 129
> 36
> 12.0
> 142
> 327/1490
> 332/1444
> 336/1413
> 322/1336
>
> I really have only seen a small speed increase with the cow (about 2 knot
s)l. I have seen a dramatic decrease in the spread between hottest and cold
est cylinders. The cowling takes me less than half the time to remove and i
nstall versus the old one. It seems to be holding up very well. I did use t
he new baffling material from aircraft spruce which has a Teflon coating on o
ne side which seems to help chafing.
>
> I was concerned with landing light replacement so I installed an LED one w
hich should last pretty much forever.
>
> I am glad I installed the cowl, would do it again. It wasn=99t ine
xpensive but what in aviation is.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ======
> Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
> (Email Guard: 9.0.0.2308, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.20620)
> http://www.pctools.com
> ======
> =17=1D3=0BI4H<=EF=BDQ=10=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDq=EF=BD0=EF=BD
=EF=BDD=EF=BD=EF=BD5=11=0F-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
I need someone who has really high CHTs (and is too cheap to buy a JagCowl
. . . grin) to try one of my special fairings. -=0A=0AYou must have 4-cyl
inder CHT/EGT (and I mean a real one, not some Westach, Falcon, Micro or so
mething else that has no relevance to the real world)=0A=0AYou need to have
good historical data for a before and after comparison.=0A=0AYou'll need t
o remove your nose gear strut to get the boot off. -The fairing screws in
place. -This should make R&R of the cowling easier too.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Gary:
Love to help.
Tiger with standard cowl,
EI with 4 EGT & 4 CHT and extra 4 Temp Probe locations on switch.
Also have extra Probes for placement within cowl or boot area.
Barry
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> I need someone who has really high CHTs (and is too cheap to buy a JagCowl
> . . . grin) to try one of my special fairings.
>
> You must have 4-cylinder CHT/EGT (and I mean a real one, not some Westach,
> Falcon, Micro or something else that has no relevance to the real world)
>
> You need to have good historical data for a before and after comparison.
>
> You'll need to remove your nose gear strut to get the boot off. The
> fairing screws in place. This should make R&R of the cowling easier too.
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Airport Bum <aa5_driver(at)yahoo.com> |
Shoo one to me and ill let you know the results.
Kevin
Gary Vogt wrote:
>I need someone who has really high CHTs (and is too cheap to buy a JagCowl . .
. grin) to try one of my special fairings.
>
>You must have 4-cylinder CHT/EGT (and I mean a real one, not some Westach, Falcon,
Micro or something else that has no relevance to the real world)
>
>You need to have good historical data for a before and after comparison.
>
>You'll need to remove your nose gear strut to get the boot off. The fairing screws
in place. This should make R&R of the cowling easier too.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Kelsey" <Phil(at)ReliantAir.com> |
| Subject: | FW: Jaguar cowling |
Thanks, I=99ll look at the numbers again maybe I screwed up the
spreadsheet somehow.
Phil
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
FLYaDIVE
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 18:50
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FW: Jaguar cowling
Hello Phil:
Using your supplied numbers, there is an inconsistency. I don't know if
that is the proper term but further investigation is required.
All your EGT reading went UP and your GPH also went UP. If you were to
hold the same altitude and lean in both flights to the same EGT [at
least on one cylinder] the numbers would be more comparable.
Examples:
1 - EGT - Usually cylinders #3 & 4 run the hottest on both CHT & EGT yet
in your second flight the EGT was hotter than the first flight. They
ALL increased - And Cyl #2 jumped UP a whooping 207 F.
And - The OAT was just about HALF of that of the first flight.
And - There was a very slight increase in fuel flow - Less than 1%
If fuel flow increases the EGT usually drops.
IF your timing was off more raw fuel could been dumped into the exhaust
and that could account for higher EGT's.
2 - CHT - Well, there you did pretty good. There was a DROP in CHT on
#2, 3 & 4 but #1 remained the same. WHY?
OAT was lower and speed was higher as well as the fuel flow being
slightly higher.
All of thei s should be reflected in lower CHT's
3 - Now let's take a look at temp spreads:
Flight #1 Delta of CHT was: 49 F
Flight #2 Delta of CHT was: 14 F
This would indicated a BETTER uniform flow of air with the cowl.
And since there was a reduction in CHT [all but Cyl #1] I would say the
cowling is doing good.
Flight #1 Delta of EGT was: 105 F
Flight #2 Delta of EGT was: 154 F
I don't know what this indicates...
My first guess and it really is that a guess; is your baffling needs
some work, not much just some. I sew the overlaps of the side and back
rubber seal together. In such a manor that there is no space and they
are sprung up to force against the cowl.
How is the baffling between and under the cylinders?
What do the ware marks of the baffling against the cowl show, are they
uniform without any spaces?
Any idea why the jump in EGT's from First Flight to Second?
The cowl seems to be working.
Are you flying in the Power Band of the Power Flow Exhaust?
AHhhh! That brings up another question: Why the INCREASE on fuel flow
- Doesn't PF advertise a reduction in fuel flow?
Barry
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Phil Kelsey
wrote:
Gary asked that I post my jaguar cowling thoughts/results for you all to
read. I field installed the cowling in late 2011 finally doing the
first flight in December 2011. Since then I have flown my 1979 Tiger
about 150 hours. I commute from Connecticut to South Carolina plus my
pilots use the plane when I=99m not. Feel free to email me with
any questions.
Phil Kelsey
Reliant Air
Danbury, CT
Cowling and baffle install:
I found the overall quality of the cowling as delivered to be excellent.
I probably spent well over 120 hours installing it but that=99s
in part due to not being able to devote full time to fitting and
installing.. The baffling parts all fit well except for the right rear
transition for the air filter duct. Spent considerable time getting it
to fit exactly the way I wanted it. I also wanted to have a flush
landing light cover so I fabricated it out of lexan. I used a camloc in
the front instead of a screw. It worked out really well. I did have to
fabricate my own front top of engine to cowl baffling. I also used 10
pound struts to hold the cowl lids open. They are designed so that they
are over center therefore applying slight closing pressure on the cowl
lid when it is closed.
Performance.
My Tiger is equipped with EI gauges and all before and after readings
are from the EI gauges. All reading are averages in level flight at 2650
rpm over the last 18 months or about 150 hours of flying.
Altitude
IAS
OAT =81=B0F
Fuel Flow
TAS
#1 CYL/EGT
#2 CYL/EGT
#3 CYL/EGT
#3 CYL/EGT
PowerFlow only
6500
120
60
11.4
140
327/1283
344/1388
371/1326
376/1310
Powerflow and Cowl
6500
129
36
12.0
142
327/1490
332/1444
336/1413
322/1336
I really have only seen a small speed increase with the cow (about 2
knots)l. I have seen a dramatic decrease in the spread between hottest
and coldest cylinders. The cowling takes me less than half the time to
remove and install versus the old one. It seems to be holding up very
well. I did use the new baffling material from aircraft spruce which
has a Teflon coating on one side which seems to help chafing.
I was concerned with landing light replacement so I installed an LED one
which should last pretty much forever.
I am glad I installed the cowl, would do it again. It wasn=99t
inexpensive but what in aviation is.
Image removed by sender. GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 002.jpgImage removed by
sender. GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 007.jpgImage removed by sender. GRUMMAN
COWL INSTALL 018.jpg
Image removed by sender. GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 009.jpgImage removed by
sender. GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 004.jpgImage removed by sender. GRUMMAN
COWL INSTALL 006.jpg
Image removed by sender. GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 014.jpgImage removed by
sender. GRUMMAN COWL INSTALL 016.jpgImage removed by sender. GRUMMAN
COWL INSTALL 019.jpg
======
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=======
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=======
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ronald Millman CPA <ronmillmancpa(at)msn.com> |
I believe that I meet your specifications.Engine with 28 hours. New EGT C
HT 4 probes.High temps per my IA. 450 on climb VX #3.New electronic Tach.
Stock cowl.Ron Millman=2C CPA Glendale=2C CA AA5B @KWHP (Los Angeles)818-
241-3286
Date: Mon=2C 17 Sep 2012 16:32:02 -0400
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: High CHTs
From: flyadive(at)gmail.com
Gary:
Love to help.
Tiger with standard cowl=2C EI with 4 EGT & 4 CHT and extra 4 Temp Probe lo
cations on switch.Also have extra Probes for placement within cowl or boot
area.
Barry
On Mon=2C Sep 17=2C 2012 at 3:41 PM=2C Gary Vogt wr
ote:
I need someone who has really high CHTs (and is too cheap to buy a JagCowl
. . . grin) to try one of my special fairings.
You must have 4-cylinder CHT/EGT (and I mean a real one=2C not some Westach
=2C Falcon=2C Micro or something else that has no relevance to the real wor
ld)
You need to have good historical data for a before and after comparison.
You'll need to remove your nose gear strut to get the boot off. The fairin
g screws in place. This should make R&R of the cowling easier too.
st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
Ron, what analyzer do you have?
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 17, 2012, at 7:32 PM, Ronald Millman CPA wrot
e:
> I believe that I meet your specifications.
> Engine with 28 hours. New EGT CHT 4 probes.
> High temps per my IA. 450 on climb VX #3.
> New electronic Tach.
> Stock cowl.
> Ron Millman, CPA Glendale, CA AA5B @KWHP (Los Angeles)
> 818-241-3286
>
>
> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:32:02 -0400
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: High CHTs
> From: flyadive(at)gmail.com
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>
> Gary:
>
> Love to help.
>
> Tiger with standard cowl,
> EI with 4 EGT & 4 CHT and extra 4 Temp Probe locations on switch.
> Also have extra Probes for placement within cowl or boot area.
>
> Barry
>
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> I need someone who has really high CHTs (and is too cheap to buy a JagCowl
. . . grin) to try one of my special fairings.
>
> You must have 4-cylinder CHT/EGT (and I mean a real one, not some Westach,
Falcon, Micro or something else that has no relevance to the real world)
>
> You need to have good historical data for a before and after comparison.
>
> You'll need to remove your nose gear strut to get the boot off. The fairi
ng screws in place. This should make R&R of the cowling easier too.
>
>
> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BILL9725(at)AOL.COM |
Hi Gary
Another Tiger owner very interested in testing your fairing. My Tiger has
200 hrs on a Millenum motor, and JPI 4 probe with download available. Was
thinking of eventually getting a Jaguar before the end of the year if my
ship comes in, death in family, but would love to test the fairing even so
and especially if things don`t allow a new Jaguar by year end. #4 runs hot,
usually 430+ on most days with proper leaning, #3 right behind at 420
usually. Summer or winter, and any altitude, could be the manual leaner, I
know.
Thanks
Bill
Tiger N1540R
In a message dated 9/17/2012 12:42:29 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com writes:
I need someone who has really high CHTs (and is too cheap to buy a JagCowl
. . . grin) to try one of my special fairings.
You must have 4-cylinder CHT/EGT (and I mean a real one, not some Westach,
Falcon, Micro or something else that has no relevance to the real world)
You need to have good historical data for a before and after comparison.
You'll need to remove your nose gear strut to get the boot off. The
fairing screws in place. This should make R&R of the cowling easier too.
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
Bill, if you're thinking about a cowling, the price goes up on December 1,
2012. -Check out my web site.=0A=0AI'll let you know about the fairing.
=0A=0AGary=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "BILL9725@AOL.
COM" =0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesd
ay, September 18, 2012 8:38 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: High CHTs
=0A =0A=0AHi Gary =0A-=0AAnother Tiger owner very interested in testing y
our fairing.- My Tiger =0Ahas 200 hrs on a Millenum motor, and JPI 4 prob
e with download available.- =0AWas thinking of eventually getting a Jagua
r before the end of the year if my =0Aship comes in, death in family, but w
ould love to test the fairing even so and =0Aespecially if things don`t all
ow a new Jaguar by year end.- #4 runs hot, =0Ausually 430+ on most days w
ith proper leaning, #3 right behind at 420 =0Ausually.- Summer or winter,
and any altitude, could be the manual leaner, I =0Aknow.- =0A-=0AThank
s =0A-=0ABill =0ATiger N1540R =0A-=0A-=0AIn a message dated 9/17/2012
12:42:29 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, =0Ateamgrumman(at)yahoo.com writes:=0AI
need someone who has really high CHTs (and is too cheap to buy a JagCowl .
. . grin) to try one of my special fairings. -=0A>=0A>=0A>You must have
4-cylinder CHT/EGT (and I mean a real one, not some Westach, Falcon, Micr
o or something else that has no relevance to the real world)=0A>=0A>=0A>You
need to have good historical data for a before and after comparison.=0A>
=0A>=0A>You'll need to remove your nose gear strut to get the boot off.
-The fairing screws in place. -This should make R&R of the cowling eas
ier too.=0A>st href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List s.matronics.com/">htt
p://forums.matronics.com=0Ap://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.m
===
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BILL9725(at)AOL.COM |
Hi Gary
Thanks for getting back to me and yes, if some money comes in before
December will certainly be in touch about the Jag cowling, I have admired it
since you started on it. Will need the Powerflow along with it so have to
budget the entire thing at the same time. Believe me you are first on my list
of things to do!
Thanks
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
Thanks, Bill. -Where are you located?=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________
________=0A From: "BILL9725(at)AOL.COM" <BILL9725(at)AOL.COM>=0ATo: teamgrumman-l
ist(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 10:00 AM=0ASubject:
Re: TeamGrumman-List: High CHTs=0A =0A=0AHi Gary =0A-=0AThanks for gettin
g back to me and yes, if some money comes in before =0ADecember will certai
nly be in touch about the Jag cowling, I have admired it =0Asince you start
ed on it.- Will need the Powerflow along with it so have to =0Abudget the
entire thing at the same time.- Believe me you are first on my =0Alist o
-========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brock Windsor <n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Gary,=0A- I want to help with the fairing as well.- I have a Tiger,
JPI EDM830 with about 150 hours of flight data.-Well, the recorder may ha
ve started looping by now.- I haven't actually ever downloaded it.-Temp
s range from 400-450 on climb and 360 to 430 in cruise.- =0A-=0A-=0AB
rock=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Gary Vogt <teamgrumma
n(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: Teamgrumman List =0ASen
t: Monday, September 17, 2012 2:41 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: High CHT
s=0A=0A=0AI need someone who has really high CHTs (and is too cheap to buy
a JagCowl . . . grin) to try one of my special fairings. -=0A=0AYou must
have 4-cylinder CHT/EGT (and I mean a real one, not some Westach, Falcon, M
icro or something else that has no relevance to the real world)=0A=0AYou ne
ed to have good historical data for a before and after comparison.=0A=0AYou
'll need to remove your nose gear strut to get the boot off. -The fairing
==================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
Brock,
What is your address?
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 18, 2012, at 1:41 PM, Brock Windsor wrote:
> Hi Gary,
> I want to help with the fairing as well. I have a Tiger, JPI EDM830 wit
h about 150 hours of flight data. Well, the recorder may have started loopin
g by now. I haven't actually ever downloaded it. Temps range from 400-450 o
n climb and 360 to 430 in cruise.
>
>
> Brock
>
> From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com>
> To: Teamgrumman List
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 2:41 PM
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: High CHTs
>
> I need someone who has really high CHTs (and is too cheap to buy a JagCowl
. . . grin) to try one of my special fairings.
>
> You must have 4-cylinder CHT/EGT (and I mean a real one, not some Westach,
Falcon, Micro or something else that has no relevance to the real world)
>
> You need to have good historical data for a before and after comparison.
>
> You'll need to remove your nose gear strut to get the boot off. The fairi
ng screws in place. This should make R&R of the cowling easier too.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
Bill, Where are located?
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 18, 2012, at 8:38 AM, BILL9725(at)AOL.COM wrote:
> Hi Gary
>
> Another Tiger owner very interested in testing your fairing. My Tiger has
200 hrs on a Millenum motor, and JPI 4 probe with download available. Was t
hinking of eventually getting a Jaguar before the end of the year if my ship
comes in, death in family, but would love to test the fairing even so and e
specially if things don`t allow a new Jaguar by year end. #4 runs hot, usua
lly 430+ on most days with proper leaning, #3 right behind at 420 usually. S
ummer or winter, and any altitude, could be the manual leaner, I know.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bill
> Tiger N1540R
>
>
> In a message dated 9/17/2012 12:42:29 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, teamgrum
man(at)yahoo.com writes:
> I need someone who has really high CHTs (and is too cheap to buy a JagCowl
. . . grin) to try one of my special fairings.
>
> You must have 4-cylinder CHT/EGT (and I mean a real one, not some Westach,
Falcon, Micro or something else that has no relevance to the real world)
>
> You need to have good historical data for a before and after comparison.
>
> You'll need to remove your nose gear strut to get the boot off. The fairi
ng screws in place. This should make R&R of the cowling easier too.
>
>
> st href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BILL9725(at)AOL.COM |
Hi Gary
I am located in Lodi 1O3, Tiger is a 1976 model slowly getting renovated.
Recently put your face panels on and greatly improved look, best
investment so far.
Thanks
Bill Stigile
209-712-6100
In a message dated 9/18/2012 11:11:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com writes:
Bill, Where are located?
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 18, 2012, at 8:38 AM, _BILL9725(at)AOL.COM_ (mailto:BILL9725(at)AOL.COM)
wrote:
Hi Gary
Another Tiger owner very interested in testing your fairing. My Tiger has
200 hrs on a Millenum motor, and JPI 4 probe with download available. Was
thinking of eventually getting a Jaguar before the end of the year if my
ship comes in, death in family, but would love to test the fairing even so
and especially if things don`t allow a new Jaguar by year end. #4 runs hot,
usually 430+ on most days with proper leaning, #3 right behind at 420
usually. Summer or winter, and any altitude, could be the manual leaner, I
know.
Thanks
Bill
Tiger N1540R
In a message dated 9/17/2012 12:42:29 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
_teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com_ (mailto:teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com) writes:
I need someone who has really high CHTs (and is too cheap to buy a JagCowl
. . . grin) to try one of my special fairings.
You must have 4-cylinder CHT/EGT (and I mean a real one, not some Westach,
Falcon, Micro or something else that has no relevance to the real world)
You need to have good historical data for a before and after comparison.
You'll need to remove your nose gear strut to get the boot off. The
fairing screws in place. This should make R&R of the cowling easier too.
st href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List)
">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List)
_s.matronics.com/_ (http://s.matronics.com/)
">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
p://www.matronics.com/contribution">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Airport Bum <aa5_driver(at)yahoo.com> |
Forgot to mention that besides egt's and cht's we can instantly compare the oat
vs under cowl temperature delta if that helps.
Kevin
Gary Vogt wrote:
>I need someone who has really high CHTs (and is too cheap to buy a JagCowl . .
. grin) to try one of my special fairings.
>
>You must have 4-cylinder CHT/EGT (and I mean a real one, not some Westach, Falcon,
Micro or something else that has no relevance to the real world)
>
>You need to have good historical data for a before and after comparison.
>
>You'll need to remove your nose gear strut to get the boot off. The fairing screws
in place. This should make R&R of the cowling easier too.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
Found a candidate that is local. -Hopefully it works and is easy to STC.
=0A=0AThanks for the interest.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A
From: "BILL9725(at)AOL.COM" <BILL9725(at)AOL.COM>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronic
s.com =0ASent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 8:41 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGru
mman-List: High CHTs=0A =0A=0AHi Gary =0A-=0AI am located in Lodi 1O3, Ti
ger is a 1976 model slowly getting =0Arenovated.- Recently put your face
panels on and greatly improved look, =0Abest investment so far.- =0A-
=0AThanks =0ABill Stigile =0A209-712-6100=0A-=0AIn a message dated 9/18/2
012 11:11:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, =0Ateamgrumman(at)yahoo.com writes:
=0ABill, Where are located?=0A>=0A>=0A>GarySent from my iPad=0A>=0A>On Sep
18, 2012, at 8:38 AM, BILL9725(at)AOL.COM wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>Hi Gary =0A>>-
=0A>>Another Tiger owner very interested in testing your fairing.- My Ti
ger has 200 hrs on a Millenum motor, and JPI 4 probe with download availab
le.- Was thinking of eventually getting a Jaguar before the end of the y
ear if my ship comes in, death in family, but would love to test the fairi
ng even so and especially if things don`t allow a new Jaguar by year end.
- #4 runs hot, usually 430+ on most days with proper leaning, #3 right b
ehind at 420 usually.- Summer or winter, and any altitude, could be the
manual leaner, I know.- =0A>>-=0A>>Thanks =0A>>-=0A>>Bill =0A>>Tiger
N1540R =0A>>-=0A>>-=0A>>In a message dated 9/17/2012 12:42:29 P.M. Paci
fic Daylight Time, teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com writes:=0A>>I need someone who has
really high CHTs (and is too cheap to buy a JagCowl . . . grin) to try on
e of my special fairings. -=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>You must have 4-cylinder CH
T/EGT (and I mean a real one, not some Westach, Falcon, Micro or something
else that has no relevance to the real world)=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>You need
to have good historical data for a before and after comparison.=0A>>>=0A>>>
=0A>>>You'll need to remove your nose gear strut to get the boot off. -T
he fairing screws in place. -This should make R&R of the cowling easier
too.=0A>>>st href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List s.matronics.com/">http:
//forums.matronics.com p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matro
nics.com/contribution =0A>>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamG
rumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0Ahref="
http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0Ahref="http://w
ww.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A>st
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0As.matronics.com/">http://forums.ma
tronics.com=0Ap://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/
======================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Brake Reservoir Relocated? |
| From: | 923TE <923te(at)att.net> |
Anyone added a brake reservoir on the engine side of the firewall on your 4 place
Grumman?
I'm tired of adding brake fluid while standing on my head!
I'm thinking that flex hoses screwed into the stock reservoirs routed to a reservoir
on the firewall could work. Right or wrong?
Ned
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Brake Reservoir Relocated? |
On 9/20/2012 1:37 PM, 923TE wrote:
>
> Anyone added a brake reservoir on the engine side of the firewall on your 4 place
Grumman?
> I'm tired of adding brake fluid while standing on my head!
> I'm thinking that flex hoses screwed into the stock reservoirs routed to a reservoir
on the firewall could work. Right or wrong?
> Ned
>
>
That's the way Beech did it on the Bonanza in 1947! But the cylinders
are not reservoir ones like on the Grumman.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brake Reservoir Relocated? |
| From: | Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com> |
I worked on a Traveler that had been modified like that.
Worked fine, but could have been better engineered.
--Bob Steward
Birmingham, AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
One of the Tigers I maintain started having that old wire burning smell.
-Not all the time. -Off and on. -Smoke once. -Never repeatable. -
=0A=0AA mechanic outside Oshkosh identified 51PA3 as having a 'rough, bubbl
y surface.' -This wire was under the panel toward the middle in a bundle
of wires. -=0A=0AYesterday, I found the same thing without the knowledge
of the previous find. -51PA3 is a ground wire. -No circuit breaker or f
use. -=0A=0AI followed the wire to the engine side and noticed several me
lted looking areas.=0A=0AFiguring the wire needed to be replaced anyway, I
cut into it and put an ammeter in series. -The battery relay that is ener
gized by adding ground the the middle terminal is at the end of the wire.
=0AThis wire drew 0.065 to 0.70 amps. -The really odd thing was that it g
ot really hot while I was holding it. -=0A=0AI replaced it with No.18 wir
e. -The removed wire had a LOT of places on the wire where the shielding
had either been melted or worn away; I couldn't tell why the shielding was
missing. -The wire in those areas was very corroded. -=0A=0AAnyone else
ever seen anything like that?=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A
From: Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics
.com =0ASent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 5:49 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumm
an-List: Brake Reservoir Relocated?=0A =0A--> TeamGrumman-List message post
ed by: Bob Steward =0A=0AI worked on a Traveler tha
t had been modified like that.=0AWorked fine, but could have been better en
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | NACA Submerged inlet: AG5B |
At all conditions, climb, dive, straight and level, left or right skid (yaw), the
MAP registered approximately .1 inches below the pressure recorded from a port
tapped into the static line.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
| Subject: | Re: NACA Submerged inlet: AG5B |
On 9/20/2012 7:30 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> At all conditions, climb, dive, straight and level, left or right skid
> (yaw), the MAP registered approximately .1 inches below the pressure
> recorded from a port tapped into the static line.
I gather you are talking about the MAP with the new NACA type inlet duct
for an AG5B? But, 0.1' MP is not even detectable on a typical MP gauge.
But if this is compared to a 0.5" of 1.0" is loss with the standard
inlet and air filter it is significant.
Explain further.
Cliff
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NACA Submerged inlet: AG5B |
| From: | "discover" <923te(at)att.net> |
Gary,
That's an incredibly good looking air intake for the AG5B. Sounds like it will
give much more flow rate and pressure than the factory intake. The factory location
is located in a high velocity slipstream and some have said it actually
create pressures lower than static.
Seeing the 2 holes aft of the NACA lip I'm guessing that the factory filter box
has been replaced? So how about some pics of what's inside the cowl?
On my AG5B I experimented with the 70's AA5B Tiger intake location versus the AG5B
intake location. I could switch from one to the other on the fly and noted
0.5 to 1" MP increase over the AG5B intake. Now I'm curious how that compares
to a port in the static line....
Looks like another good job from the Aucountry skunkworks.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383713#383713
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: NACA Submerged inlet: AG5B |
626 has two separate MAP sensors. -One is connected to the engine, the ot
her to the static system. -The original inlet lost, on average, .8 inches
of pressure over atmosphere (static). -The original was only .5 inches l
ow on takeoff, but as much as an inch low in straight and level fast cruise
. -The new inlet stays around .1 below static under all conditions. -Wo
rst condition was a really hard side slip, tail to the right: lost .2 inche
s. -Best was side slip tail to the left: 0 inches lost.=0A=0A=0A_________
_______________________=0A From: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>=0ATo: tea
mgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Friday, September 21, 2012 6:33 AM=0AS
ubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: NACA Submerged inlet: AG5B=0A =0A--> TeamGrum
man-List message posted by: flyv35b =0A=0AOn 9/20/2
012 7:30 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A> At all conditions, climb, dive, straight
and level, left or right skid=0A> (yaw), the MAP registered approximately .
1 inches below the pressure=0A> recorded from a port tapped into the static
line.=0A=0AI gather you are talking about the MAP with the new NACA type i
nlet duct for an AG5B?- But, 0.1' MP is not even detectable on a typical
MP gauge.- But if this is compared to a 0.5" of 1.0" is loss with the sta
ndard inlet and air filter it is significant.=0A=0AExplain further.=0A=0ACl
=========================0A
===================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: NACA Submerged inlet: AG5B |
that's the prototype. -The finished one is closed on the inside with the
exception of a round hole for the filter.=0A=0A=0A_________________________
_______=0A From: discover <923te(at)att.net>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.
com =0ASent: Friday, September 21, 2012 7:58 AM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List
: Re: NACA Submerged inlet: AG5B=0A =0A--> TeamGrumman-List message posted
by: "discover" <923te(at)att.net>=0A=0AGary,=0AThat's an incredibly good looki
ng air intake for the AG5B. Sounds like it will give much more flow rate an
d pressure than the factory intake. The factory location is located in a hi
gh velocity slipstream and some have said it actually create pressures lowe
r than static.=0A=0ASeeing the 2- holes aft of the NACA lip I'm guessing
that the factory filter box has been replaced? So how about some pics of wh
at's inside the cowl?=0A=0AOn my AG5B I experimented with the 70's AA5B Tig
er intake location versus the AG5B intake location. I could switch from one
to the other on the fly and noted 0.5 to 1" MP increase over the AG5B inta
ke. Now I'm curious how that compares to a port in the static line....=0A
=0ALooks like another good job from the Aucountry skunkworks.=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, L
=======
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: NACA Submerged inlet: AG5B |
Ned, did you ever get the fairing I sent?=0A=0A=0A_________________________
_______=0A From: discover <923te(at)att.net>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.
com =0ASent: Friday, September 21, 2012 7:58 AM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List
: Re: NACA Submerged inlet: AG5B=0A =0A--> TeamGrumman-List message posted
by: "discover" <923te(at)att.net>=0A=0AGary,=0AThat's an incredibly good looki
ng air intake for the AG5B. Sounds like it will give much more flow rate an
d pressure than the factory intake. The factory location is located in a hi
gh velocity slipstream and some have said it actually create pressures lowe
r than static.=0A=0ASeeing the 2- holes aft of the NACA lip I'm guessing
that the factory filter box has been replaced? So how about some pics of wh
at's inside the cowl?=0A=0AOn my AG5B I experimented with the 70's AA5B Tig
er intake location versus the AG5B intake location. I could switch from one
to the other on the fly and noted 0.5 to 1" MP increase over the AG5B inta
ke. Now I'm curious how that compares to a port in the static line....=0A
=0ALooks like another good job from the Aucountry skunkworks.=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, L
=======
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "923te" <923te(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NACA Submerged inlet: AG5B |
>From Gary:
Ned, did you ever get the fairing I sent?
>From Ned:
Yes just discovered it. Glad you ask as it was put away in a closet.....
I'm looking forward to trying it out...I'll let you know
What happened to this? It looks like it would make more MP than the
NACA...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brake Reservoir Relocated? |
| From: | "discover" <923te(at)att.net> |
Bob,
Did they have a 337?
Should I find it on Bondline?
ned
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383748#383748
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NACA Submerged inlet: AG5B |
| From: | "discover" <923te(at)att.net> |
Try again on the picture
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383750#383750
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ag5b_114.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: NACA Submerged inlet: AG5B |
It was way too complicated. -The MAP results were the same. -The bigges
t problem with the inlet below is that you couldn't get to the plugs. -Wi
thout a Power FLow, there had to be a big notch in to to clear #2 exhaust.
-The front baffle had to be hacked up. -Way to many things did not fit
Occam's Razor. --=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: 923
te <923te(at)att.net>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Friday, Se
ptember 21, 2012 3:31 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: NACA Submerged in
let: AG5B=0A =0A=0A =0AFrom Gary:=0ANed, did you ever get the fairing I sen
t? =0A=0AFrom Ned:=0AYes just discovered it. Glad you ask as it was =0Aput
away in a closet.....=0AI'm looking forward to trying it out...I'll =0Alet
you know=0A-=0A-=0AWhat happened to this? It looks like it would =0Amak
e more MP than the NACA...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Champion SB on 4 & 6 cylinder Slick Mags |
| From: | "discover" <923te(at)att.net> |
https://www.championaerospacepubs.com/docs/F-1100-SB1-12.pdf
You guys gotten this one yet?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383758#383758
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
No ones ever heard of this?
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 20, 2012, at 7:27 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> One of the Tigers I maintain started having that old wire burning smell. N
ot all the time. Off and on. Smoke once. Never repeatable.
>
> A mechanic outside Oshkosh identified 51PA3 as having a 'rough, bubbly sur
face.' This wire was under the panel toward the middle in a bundle of wires
.
>
> Yesterday, I found the same thing without the knowledge of the previous fi
nd. 51PA3 is a ground wire. No circuit breaker or fuse.
>
> I followed the wire to the engine side and noticed several melted looking a
reas.
>
> Figuring the wire needed to be replaced anyway, I cut into it and put an a
mmeter in series. The battery relay that is energized by adding ground the t
he middle terminal is at the end of the wire.
> This wire drew 0.065 to 0.70 amps. The really odd thing was that it got r
eally hot while I was holding it.
>
> I replaced it with No.18 wire. The removed wire had a LOT of places on th
e wire where the shielding had either been melted or worn away; I couldn't t
ell why the shielding was missing. The wire in those areas was very corrode
d.
>
> Anyone else ever seen anything like that?
>
> From: Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 5:49 PM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Brake Reservoir Relocated?
>
m>
>
> I worked on a Traveler that had been modified like that.
> Worked fine, but could have been better engineered.
> --Bob St= - The TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -<= Same great c
ontent also &nbs==============
====
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com> |
You're saying that this is a shielded GROUND wire?
Haven't had a chance to look at the manual schematics to see what circuit 51PA3
is part of.
Can't imagine the need for a shielded ground (except the P-leads).
--Bob Steward
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank Sundram <radiohound(at)AOL.COM> |
Go to sleep, bob, day of rest and all.
Restful Woofs from the boys
Frank
850-819-1666
On Sep 22, 2012, at 11:35 PM, Bob Steward wrote:
>
> You're saying that this is a shielded GROUND wire?
> Haven't had a chance to look at the manual schematics to see what circuit 51PA3
is part of.
> Can't imagine the need for a shielded ground (except the P-leads).
> --Bob Steward
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com> |
I found 51PA4 wire code for the ground from the battery side of the Master Switch
to the airframe ground on the 70's Tigers and Cheetahs. This is a ~6" long
segment of plain, unshielded wire with a 1/4" female spade terminal at the Master
and a #6 ring terminal on the other end that grounds to the honeycomb with
a #4 sheet metal screw.
The normal convention is that each segment in a circuit has the next # as the last
digit.
So there SHOULD be 3 previous segments in this circuit. There are not.
What does your 51PA3 connect to?
--Bob Steward
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com> |
Gary has me stirred up over this.
N200FW canopy plastic looks very nice, if I do say so myself!
--Bob
Frank Sundram wrote:
>
>Go to sleep, bob, day of rest and all.
>
>Restful Woofs from the boys
>
>Frank
>850-819-1666
>
>On Sep 22, 2012, at 11:35 PM, Bob Steward wrote:
>
>>
>> You're saying that this is a shielded GROUND wire?
>> Haven't had a chance to look at the manual schematics to see what circuit 51PA3
is part of.
>> Can't imagine the need for a shielded ground (except the P-leads).
>> --Bob Steward
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "beltz6" <beltz6(at)yahoo.com> |
n76lima(at)mindspring.com wrote:
> I found 51PA4 wire code for the ground from the battery side of the Master Switch
to the airframe ground on the 70's Tigers and Cheetahs. This is a ~6" long
segment of plain, unshielded wire with a 1/4" female spade terminal at the Master
and a #6 ring terminal on the other end that grounds to the honeycomb with
a #4 sheet metal screw.
> The normal convention is that each segment in a circuit has the next # as the
last digit.
> So there SHOULD be 3 previous segments in this circuit. There are not.
> What does your 51PA3 connect to?
> --Bob Steward
I think MAYBE Gary meant 5PA3, not 51PA3 (??). It's the one that connects the
battery solenoid to the battery side of the master switch.
Yeah, it's my plane that smoked up and started this thread :-/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383829#383829
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "beltz6" <beltz6(at)yahoo.com> |
Here are some pics of various segments of the wire in question that was removed:
http://i.imgur.com/kBcmw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lSQGa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cNPxn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SuYSu.jpg
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383830#383830
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
no, the plastic shield, insulation, whatever, was melted. -it goes from t
he battery relay to the master. -it's the ground wire. -it got VERY hot
drawing .7 amps.=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Bob
Steward =0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASe
nt: Saturday, September 22, 2012 9:35 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: M
ma(at)mindspring.com>=0A=0AYou're saying that this is a shielded GROUND wire?
=0AHaven't had a chance to look at the manual schematics to see what circui
t 51PA3 is part of.=0ACan't imagine the need for a shielded ground (except
=========================0A
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Adm
=====
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "grumpyparts" <i.r.m(at)btinternet.com> |
The 51 indicated it was used on the AA1 as well as AA5. I assume this cable was
taken from a late model AA5 after the AA1 line was closed.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383851#383851
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
look on my wiring diagram. -it's marked 5PA3 since it is one of the origi
nal 5 series wires. -in the plane it's marked 51PA3=0A=0A=0A_____________
___________________=0A From: Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com>=0ATo: tea
mgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 9:50 PM
=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Melted wire=0A =0A--> TeamGrumman-List me
ssage posted by: Bob Steward =0A=0AGary has me stir
red up over this.=0AN200FW canopy plastic looks very nice, if I do say so m
yself!=0A--Bob=0A=0AFrank Sundram wrote:=0A=0A>--> Tea
mGrumman-List message posted by: Frank Sundram =0A>=0A>
Go to sleep, bob, day of rest and all.=0A>=0A>Restful Woofs from the boys
=0A>=0A>Frank=0A>850-819-1666=0A>=0A>On Sep 22, 2012, at 11:35 PM, Bob Stew
ard wrote:=0A>=0A>> --> TeamGrumman-List message p
osted by: Bob Steward =0A>> =0A>> You're saying tha
t this is a shielded GROUND wire?=0A>> Haven't had a chance to look at the
manual schematics to see what circuit 51PA3 is part of.=0A>> Can't imagine
the need for a shielded ground (except the P-leads).=0A>> --Bob Steward=0A>
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com> |
This STILL makes no sense. The Master Relay resistance is ~15 ohms. So the current
should be in the 0.8 amps, and the energy dissipated is ~9.6 watts.
Certainly not enough to heat the wire.
So SOMETHING is causing a dead short from Master Solenoid to ground. I'd be checking
the Master Solenoid for some sort of internal short.
That is unless someone has improperly replaced the Continuous Duty Master Solenoid
with an Intermittent Duty Starter Solenoid...
That would mean a ~6 amp draw, dissipating 72 watts!
Your ammeter reading would suggest otherwise.
--Bob Steward
Birmingham, AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "beltz6" <beltz6(at)yahoo.com> |
n76lima(at)mindspring.com wrote:
> This STILL makes no sense. The Master Relay resistance is ~15 ohms. So the
current should be in the 0.8 amps, and the energy dissipated is ~9.6 watts.
> Certainly not enough to heat the wire.
> So SOMETHING is causing a dead short from Master Solenoid to ground. I'd be
checking the Master Solenoid for some sort of internal short.
> That is unless someone has improperly replaced the Continuous Duty Master Solenoid
with an Intermittent Duty Starter Solenoid...
> That would mean a ~6 amp draw, dissipating 72 watts!
> Your ammeter reading would suggest otherwise.
> --Bob Steward
> Birmingham, AL
Someone where I work has a wrap-around ammeter. I'm going to check that wire again
to make sure it's carrying in the .6-.7 amp ballpark.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383856#383856
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
IF there is a significant corrosion in the areas where the plastic shield i
s, would there be enough resistance to make the wire heat more?=0A=0AI repl
aced the entire wire with #18 wire.=0A=0A=0A_______________________________
_=0A From: Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matr
onics.com =0ASent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 12:35 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamG
Steward =0A=0AThis STILL makes no sense.- The Mas
ter Relay resistance is ~15 ohms.- So the current should be in the 0.8 am
ps, and the energy dissipated is ~9.6 watts.=0ACertainly not enough to heat
the wire.=0ASo SOMETHING is causing a dead short from Master Solenoid to g
round.- I'd be checking the Master Solenoid for some sort of internal sho
rt.=0AThat is unless someone has improperly replaced the Continuous Duty Ma
ster Solenoid with an Intermittent Duty Starter Solenoid...=0AThat would me
an a ~6 amp draw, dissipating 72 watts!=0AYour ammeter reading would sugges
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n76lima(at)mindspring.com |
[Gary] IF there is a significant corrosion in the areas where the plastic shield
is, would there be enough resistance to make the wire heat more? I replaced
the entire wire with #18 wire.
The problem is that the power is applied to the coil internally in the Master Relay,
and then this wire is a GROUND. A #2 gauge jumper cable would not carry
anymore current than the OEM wire, because the limiting resistance is at the
SOURCE (power goes through the positive cable to the Master Relay, and then to
the coil internally, and finally to a ground via the wire in question). One
can't really lower the resistance of the circuit by fiddling with the ground wire.
One can INCREASE the resistance, and thereby lessen the current, but no
way to externally to the Master Relay LOWER the resistance. So "corrosion" on
the wire would have no effect at increasing the current enough to heat it. I
suppose if enough strands were corroded through that the current of ~0.8 amps
would heat the wire locally, but the insulation would have to be off and the
corrosion damage happen BEFORE the heating, and since the supposition is that
the wire got hot FIRST, damaging the insulation, which could then lead to the
corrosion and the narrowing of the wire, the chain is completely backwards. And
after the FIRST area was damaged (by whatever means), then no further damage
could occur down stream, since the current would now be even MORE limited by
the increased resistance at the first site damaged on the wire.
With several areas of damage, and wide spread lengths of heating, this is NOT a
localized problem of the wire losing a few strands to corrosion.
Hence my suggestion that someone had replaced the Master Relay with a Starter Relay,
or that the relay had some sort of internal fault that was shorting power
to ground that did not go through the 15 ohm coil.
--Bob Steward
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Champion SB on 4 & 6 cylinder Slick Mags |
| From: | Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
One of my customers replaced his mags last month. One of them is affected by this.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 21, 2012, at 8:34 PM, "discover" <923te(at)att.net> wrote:
>
> https://www.championaerospacepubs.com/docs/F-1100-SB1-12.pdf
>
> You guys gotten this one yet?
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383758#383758
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> |
On 9/23/2012 7:45 PM, n76lima(at)mindspring.com wrote:
>
> [Gary] IF there is a significant corrosion in the areas where the plastic shield
is, would there be enough resistance to make the wire heat more? I replaced
the entire wire with #18 wire.
>
> The problem is that the power is applied to the coil internally in the Master
Relay, and then this wire is a GROUND. A #2 gauge jumper cable would not carry
anymore current than the OEM wire, because the limiting resistance is at the
SOURCE (power goes through the positive cable to the Master Relay, and then
to the coil internally, and finally to a ground via the wire in question). One
can't really lower the resistance of the circuit by fiddling with the ground
wire. One can INCREASE the resistance, and thereby lessen the current, but no
way to externally to the Master Relay LOWER the resistance. So "corrosion"
on the wire would have no effect at increasing the current enough to heat it.
I suppose if enough strands were corroded through that the current of ~0.8 amps
would heat the wire locally, but the insulation would have to be off and the
corrosion damage happen BEFORE the heating, and since the supposition is that
the wire got hot FIRST, damaging the insulation, wh
i!
>
> ch could then lead to the corrosion and the narrowing of the wire, the chain
is completely backwards. And after the FIRST area was damaged (by whatever
means), then no further damage could occur down stream, since the current would
now be even MORE limited by the increased resistance at the first site damaged
on the wire.
>
> With several areas of damage, and wide spread lengths of heating, this is NOT
a localized problem of the wire losing a few strands to corrosion.
>
> Hence my suggestion that someone had replaced the Master Relay with a Starter
Relay, or that the relay had some sort of internal fault that was shorting power
to ground that did not go through the 15 ohm coil.
>
> --Bob Steward
>
>
Bob, what's the current draw of the coil in a starter contactor? Would
that even be enough to melt the insulation of an 18 ga wire? I assume
the wire was 18 ga. A single 18ga wire in free air wire should be able
to handle nearly 25 amp at conductor temp of around 150 C (100 C above
ambient). How would you get that kind of current flow without a direct
short to ground?
Cliff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com> |
The coil in the Starter should have a resistance of ~2 ohms. So that means a current
of ~6 amps @ 12V.
Far below what the 18 ga. wire should safely carry.
The starter relay is usually wired differently than the Master. The Starter usually
has the coil isolated from the power terminals, and is POWERED by the start
button switch, rather than grounded.
It is also protected by the 10 amp fuse that powers the start/fuel pump/strobe
circuit.
So the wire powering the Starter relay is not subject to a ground fault, since
it would pop the 10 amp fuse before heating the wire.
The Master wiring might be subject a ground fault if some internal fault in the
relay allowed a lower resistance in the relay to overload the ground wire.
--Bob Steward
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Lindstrom <tigerized(at)gmail.com> |
I'm guessing here, without a wiring diagram in front of me, but wouldn't a
poor mechanical ground to the body of the starter solenoid result in all
current going through the 18 ga. wire instead?
If so, that would overheat the wire for sure.
Rick
On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Bob Steward wrote:
> n76lima(at)mindspring.com>
>
> The coil in the Starter should have a resistance of ~2 ohms. So that
> means a current of ~6 amps @ 12V.
> Far below what the 18 ga. wire should safely carry.
> The starter relay is usually wired differently than the Master. The
> Starter usually has the coil isolated from the power terminals, and is
> POWERED by the start button switch, rather than grounded.
> It is also protected by the 10 amp fuse that powers the start/fuel
> pump/strobe circuit.
> So the wire powering the Starter relay is not subject to a ground fault,
> since it would pop the 10 amp fuse before heating the wire.
> The Master wiring might be subject a ground fault if some internal fault
> in the relay allowed a lower resistance in the relay to overload the ground
> wire.
> --Bob Steward
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hosler, John" <JHOSLER(at)epri.com> |
The OEM ran the ground wire to the airframe with a sheet metal screw????
John
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Lindstrom
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Melted wire
I'm guessing here, without a wiring diagram in front of me, but wouldn't
a poor mechanical ground to the body of the starter solenoid result in
all current going through the 18 ga. wire instead?
If so, that would overheat the wire for sure.
Rick
On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Bob Steward
wrote:
The coil in the Starter should have a resistance of ~2 ohms. So that
means a current of ~6 amps @ 12V.
Far below what the 18 ga. wire should safely carry.
The starter relay is usually wired differently than the Master. The
Starter usually has the coil isolated from the power terminals, and is
POWERED by the start button switch, rather than grounded.
It is also protected by the 10 amp fuse that powers the start/fuel
pump/strobe circuit.
So the wire powering the Starter relay is not subject to a ground fault,
since it would pop the 10 amp fuse before heating the wire.
The Master wiring might be subject a ground fault if some internal fault
in the relay allowed a lower resistance in the relay to overload the
ground wire.
--Bob Steward
List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
http://forums.matronics.com
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n76lima(at)mindspring.com |
The wire to the STARTER solenoid is POWERED, not grounded. The body of the starter
solenoid is isolated from the coil and the starter power circuits. One can
unbolt the starter solenoid from the firewall, and so long as the jumper wire
from the coil terminal to ground is maintained, it will function as it was
intended.
This thread started about a MASTER solenoid wire failing, and somehow morphed into
STARTER solenoid wiring discussion.
--Bob Steward
>From: Rick Lindstrom
>I'm guessing here, without a wiring diagram in front of me, but wouldn't a poor
mechanical ground to the body of the starter solenoid >result in all current
going through the 18 ga. wire instead?
>If so, that would overheat the wire for sure.
>Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n76lima(at)mindspring.com |
>From: "Hosler, John"
>The OEM ran the ground wire to the airframe with a sheet metal screw???? John
Yes, they did this at several locations. The instrument lights and compass light
are grounded to the honeycomb via a ring lug on the wiring and a sheet metal
screw.
The Magneto Ground at the ignition switch is also connected to the honeycomb via
the same method.
--Bob Steward
Birmingham, AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
The wire in question, IS a direct short to ground. -It's a ground wire th
rough the Master switch. -I can't see where it would draw enough current
to get hot. -Yet, when I cut the wire and inserted an ammeter in series,
drawing just .65 to .7 amps, the wire got damn hot. -=0A=0ADon't you just
love electrical problems?-=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A F
rom: flyv35b =0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
=0ASent: Monday, September 24, 2012 6:35 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List
b(at)minetfiber.com>=0A=0AOn 9/23/2012 7:45 PM, n76lima(at)mindspring.com wrote:
[Gary] IF there is a significant corrosion in the areas where the plastic
shield is, would there be enough resistance to make the wire heat more?-
I replaced the entire wire with #18 wire.=0A>=0A> The problem is that the p
ower is applied to the coil internally in the Master Relay, and then this w
ire is a GROUND.- A #2 gauge jumper cable would not carry anymore current
than the OEM wire, because the limiting resistance is at the SOURCE (power
goes through the positive cable to the Master Relay, and then to the coil
internally, and finally to a ground via the wire in question).- One can't
really lower the resistance of the circuit by fiddling with the ground wir
e.- One can INCREASE the resistance, and thereby lessen the current, but
no way to externally to the Master Relay LOWER the resistance.- So "corro
sion" on the wire would have no effect at increasing the current enough to
heat it.- I suppose if enough strands were corroded through that the curr
ent of ~0.8 amps would heat the wire locally, but the insulation would have
to be off and the corrosion damage happen BEFORE the heating, and since th
e supposition is that the wire got hot FIRST,
damaging the insulation, wh=0A=0Ai!=0A>=0A>- ch could then lead to the
corrosion and the narrowing of the wire, the chain is completely backwards.
- And after the FIRST area was damaged (by whatever means), then no furth
er damage could occur down stream, since the current would now be even MORE
limited by the increased resistance at the first site damaged on the wire.
=0A>=0A> With several areas of damage, and wide spread lengths of heating,
this is NOT a localized problem of the wire losing a few strands to corrosi
on.=0A>=0A> Hence my suggestion that someone had replaced the Master Relay
with a Starter Relay, or that the relay had some sort of internal fault tha
t was shorting power to ground that did not go through the 15 ohm coil.=0A>
=0A> --Bob Steward=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0ABob, what's the current draw of th
e coil in a starter contactor?- Would =0Athat even be enough to melt the
insulation of an 18 ga wire?- I assume =0Athe wire was 18 ga.- A single
18ga wire in free air wire should be able =0Ato handle nearly 25 amp at co
nductor temp of around 150 C (100 C above =0Aambient).- How would you get
that kind of current flow without a direct =0Ashort to ground?=0A=0ACliff
=========================0A
===================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
No, they didn't. -The ground from the Master goes to one of the screws th
at hold the instrument panel to the fuselage.=0A=0A=0A_____________________
___________=0A From: "Hosler, John" <JHOSLER(at)epri.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-li
st(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, September 24, 2012 8:11 AM=0ASubject: RE:
TeamGrumman-List: Re: Melted wire=0A =0A=0AThe OEM ran the ground wire to
the airframe with a sheet metal screw????=0A-=0AJohn=0A-=0AFrom:owner-t
eamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Lindstrom=0ASent: Monday, September 24, 20
12 11:08 AM=0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman
-List: Re: Melted wire=0A-=0AI'm guessing here, without a wiring diagram
in front of me, but wouldn't a poor mechanical ground to the body of the st
arter solenoid result in all current going through the 18 ga. wire instead?
=0A=0AIf so, that would overheat the wire for sure.=0A=0ARick=0AOn Mon, Sep
24, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Bob Steward wrote:=0A--> Tea
mGrumman-List message posted by: Bob Steward =0A=0A
The coil in the Starter should have a resistance of ~2 ohms. -So that mea
ns a current of ~6 amps @ 12V.=0AFar below what the 18 ga. wire should safe
ly carry.=0AThe starter relay is usually wired differently than the Master.
The Starter usually has the coil isolated from the power terminals, and is
POWERED by the start button switch, rather than grounded.=0AIt is also pro
tected by the 10 amp fuse that powers the start/fuel pump/strobe circuit.
=0ASo the wire powering the Starter relay is not subject to a ground fault,
since it would pop the 10 amp fuse before heating the wire.=0AThe Master w
iring might be subject a ground fault if some internal fault in the relay a
llowed a lower resistance in the relay to overload the ground wire.=0A--Bob
Steward=0A=0A=0A============0AList" target="_blank
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0A======
======0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0A=========
===0Ale, List Admin.=0A="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n=0A============0A=0A=0A=0A-=0A- http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0A_============
========== http://forums.matronics.com -----
--- - List Contribution Web generous nbsp;---------
-------------- --> http://www.matronics.com/c
=====================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
The magneto ground should also be going to the instrument panel mount.=0A
=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "n76lima(at)mindspring.com" <n
76lima(at)mindspring.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Monday
, September 24, 2012 8:19 AM=0ASubject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Melted wi
=0A>From: "Hosler, John" =0A>The OEM ran the ground wire to the airframe wi
th a sheet metal screw???? John=0A=0AYes, they did this at several location
s.- The instrument lights and compass light are grounded to the honeycomb
via a ring lug on the wiring and a sheet metal screw.=0A=0AThe Magneto Gro
und at the ignition switch is also connected to the honeycomb via the same
=- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle
========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
on that subject, why is it (the magneto P-Lead shields) grounded at both en
ds?=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "n76lima(at)mindspring.c
om" =0ATo: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent:
Monday, September 24, 2012 8:19 AM=0ASubject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Mel
om=0A=0A>From: "Hosler, John" =0A>The OEM ran the ground wire to the airfra
me with a sheet metal screw???? John=0A=0AYes, they did this at several loc
ations.- The instrument lights and compass light are grounded to the hone
ycomb via a ring lug on the wiring and a sheet metal screw.=0A=0AThe Magnet
o Ground at the ignition switch is also connected to the honeycomb via the
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mel Beckman <mel(at)becknet.com> |
You never ground radio-frequency interference (RFI) shields at both ends. Th
e objective of shielding is to absorb RFI, convert it to an electrical curre
nt, and drain the current to ground. If you ground the shielding at both end
it won't work, because no current can be induced in a conductor entirely at
ground potential. This is true for all RFI shielding, from ancient TV coax t
o the newest inter-building shielded Category-6 data cabling.
-Mel Beckman
On Sep 24, 2012, at 11:40 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> on that subject, why is it (the magneto P-Lead shields) grounded at both e
nds?
>
> From: "n76lima(at)mindspring.com" <n76lima(at)mindspring.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 8:19 AM
> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Melted wire
>
>
> >From: "Hosler, John"
> >The OEM ran the ground wire to the airframe with a sheet metal screw???? J
ohn
>
> Yes, they did this at several locations. The instrument lights and compas
s light are grounded to the honeycomb via a ring lug on the wiring and a she
et metal screw.
>
> The Magneto Ground at the ignition switch is also connected to the honeyco
mb via the samhare, and much much ==
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Mel:
In response to your email... It depends on what you want to accomplish.
Example:
In an RF (Radio Frequency) transmitter where there is shielding involved
you ground at both ends. An example of this would be a simple COAX cable
going to an antenna. COAX is an unbalanced medium and by grounding at both
ends (Radio & Antenna) you trap the signal and send it to ground via
the shortest path.
In an AF (Audio Frequency) intercom where you want to shield a transmitted
signal such as a RF transmission, you ground the shield (COAXIAL Shield
around the twisted pair of audio lines) at one end. The end you ground is
at the intercom, which is known as The Source <-- I know CRAZY since the
source of the interference is the RF. I don't know why they depict it that
way.
Think of it this way: In RF you don't want the signal to escape, you want
it to say contained within the shield. In AF you want the shield to act as
a fishing net and collect the signal and then send it to ground. And as
you said: " ... no current can be induced in a conductor entirely at ground
potential." <-- This is true in 99.9273% of cases. Where it gets foggy is
when you are talking WHAT FREQUENCY of RF and HOW LONG A GROUND WIRE. And
this stuff just starts to become a problem at our VHF frequencies and goes
really crazy at Microwave frequencies.
Barry
On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:
> You never ground radio-frequency interference (RFI) shields at both ends.
> The objective of shielding is to absorb RFI, convert it to an electrical
> current, and drain the current to ground. If you ground the shielding at
> both end it won't work, because no current can be induced in a conductor
> entirely at ground potential. This is true for all RFI shielding, from
> ancient TV coax to the newest inter-building shielded Category-6 data
> cabling.
>
> -Mel Beckman
>
> On Sep 24, 2012, at 11:40 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
> on that subject, why is it (the magneto P-Lead shields) grounded at both
> ends?
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "n76lima(at)mindspring.com"
> *To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2012 8:19 AM
> *Subject:* RE: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Melted wire
>
>
> >From: "Hosler, John"
> >The OEM ran the ground wire to the airframe with a sheet metal screw????
> John
>
> Yes, they did this at several locations. The instrument lights and
> compass light are grounded to the honeycomb via a ring lug on the wiring
> and a sheet metal screw.
>
> The Magneto Ground at the ignition switch is also connected to the
> honeycomb via the samhare, and much much ==
>
>
> *
>
> ==================================
> t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ===================================cs.com
> ===================================matronics.com/contribution
> ==================================
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com> |
Is the plane unairworthy if I remove the ground at one end? -It would not
longer meet type design.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From:
Mel Beckman =0ATo: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com" =0ASent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:49 AM=0A
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Melted wire=0A =0A=0AYou never ground ra
dio-frequency interference (RFI) shields at both ends. The objective of shi
elding is to absorb RFI, convert it to an electrical current, and drain the
current to ground. If you ground the shielding at both end it won't work,
because no current can be induced in a conductor entirely at ground potenti
al. This is true for all RFI shielding, from ancient TV coax to the newest
inter-building shielded Category-6 data cabling.-=0A=0A-Mel Beckman-=0A
=0AOn Sep 24, 2012, at 11:40 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:
=0A=0A=0Aon that subject, why is it (the magneto P-Lead shields) grounded a
t both ends?=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A> From: "n76
lima(at)mindspring.com" =0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matro
nics.com =0A>Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 8:19 AM=0A>Subject: RE: TeamG
rumman-List: Re: Melted wire=0A> =0A>--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by
: n76lima(at)mindspring.com=0A>=0A>>From: "Hosler, John" =0A>>The OEM ran the
ground wire to the airframe with a sheet metal screw???? John=0A>=0A>Yes, t
hey did this at several locations.- The instrument lights and compass lig
ht are grounded to the honeycomb via a ring lug on the wiring and a sheet m
etal screw.=0A>=0A>The Magneto Ground at the ignition switch is also connec
ted to the honeycomb via the samhare, and much much=0A====0A>=0A>=0A>
=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>===================
=================0At">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0A==============
===================== cs.com =
========= matronics.com/contribution=0A======
========================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Johnson <N9681L(at)dicombox.net> |
That's reversed. A conductor is not entirely at ground potential if
there is a current induced in it. Only at the ground connection is it a
zero potential. Everywhere else it differs by the product of the current
and the conductor impedance. That is a good reason to ground it at both
ends. I have seen shielded cables grounded every 6 inches to reduce the
amount of energy re-radiated from the shields.
You ground at one end only to eliminate ground loops.
Curt
On 9/24/2012 11:49 AM, Mel Beckman wrote:
> You never ground radio-frequency interference (RFI) shields at both
> ends. The objective of shielding is to absorb RFI, convert it to an
> electrical current, and drain the current to ground. If you ground the
> shielding at both end it won't work, because no current can be induced
> in a conductor entirely at ground potential. This is true for all RFI
> shielding, from ancient TV coax to the newest inter-building shielded
> Category-6 data cabling.
>
> -Mel Beckman
>
> On Sep 24, 2012, at 11:40 AM, Gary Vogt > wrote:
>
>> on that subject, why is it (the magneto P-Lead shields) grounded at
>> both ends?
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* "n76lima(at)mindspring.com "
>> >
>> *To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2012 8:19 AM
>> *Subject:* RE: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Melted wire
>>
>>
>>
>> >From: "Hosler, John"
>> >The OEM ran the ground wire to the airframe with a sheet metal
>> screw???? John
>>
>> Yes, they did this at several locations. The instrument lights and
>> compass light are grounded to the honeycomb via a ring lug on the
>> wiring and a sheet metal screw.
>>
>> The Magneto Ground at the ignition switch is also connected to the
>> honeycomb via the samhare, and much much ==
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *
June 21, 2012 - September 24, 2012
TeamGrumman-Archive.digest.vol-bw