Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:27 AM - Switch label requirements (Matthew Brandes)
2. 07:19 AM - Re: Switch label requirements (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
3. 07:24 AM - Ammeter Shunt connection ()
4. 07:49 AM - Re: Re: risks to battery for in situ (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 08:43 AM - Re: Switch label requirements (alan_products)
6. 08:45 AM - Re: Ammeter Shunt connection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 09:29 AM - Re: Ammeter Shunt connection (Matt Prather)
8. 09:58 AM - Re: Low System Voltage Troubleshooting (Dale Ensing)
9. 10:04 AM - Re: Ammeter Shunt connection (Werner Schneider)
10. 12:56 PM - Re: Switch label requirements (Eric M. Jones)
11. 01:15 PM - Re: Low System Voltage Troubleshooting (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 01:20 PM - Re: Ammeter Shunt connection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 01:39 PM - SNIMTA_SPAM Re (Dave Morris \)
14. 03:09 PM - Re: SNIMTA_SPAM Re (Greg Young)
15. 03:28 PM - Re: Ammeter Shunt connection (Matt Prather)
16. 03:33 PM - Re: Re: Switch label requirements (Kevin Horton)
17. 04:02 PM - Re: Re: Switch label requirements (Bruce Gray)
18. 06:23 PM - Re: Re: Switch label requirements (Dave Morris \)
19. 06:23 PM - Re: Switch label requirements (Eric M. Jones)
20. 08:14 PM - Ground-mode transponders (Fergus Kyle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Switch label requirements |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matthew Brandes" <matthew@n523rv.com>
Are there any requirements for labeling switches and other doo-dads on the
panel? Do I have to label every switch with an On/Off? I'm a little space
constrained for labels and just curious if there are any regulations about
this.
Matthew Brandes,
Van's RV-9A (Wiring)
#90569
<http://www.n523rv.com/> http://www.n523rv.com
EAA Chapter 1329 President
EAA Chapter 868 Web Editor
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Switch label requirements |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 8/24/05 8:29:25 AM Central Daylight Time,
matthew@n523rv.com writes:
> Are there any requirements for labeling switches and other doo-dads on the
> panel? Do I have to label every switch with an On/Off? I'm a little space
> constrained for labels and just curious if there are any regulations about
> this.
>>>
Sorta depends on your DAR- mine required function and ON/OFF labels for
everything (with some minor exceptions) and did allow liberal use of tape with
the
labels written with a Sharpie for those I'd omitted- ditto for tail # on
panel, baggage capacity etc, and don't forget a compass correction card. I did
have "ON" engraved above my main switch row with a line that extended in either
direction to end of switches, which was OK for him, but I had to add several
"OFF" labels below. Luckily I'd purchased a large sheet of stick-on labels from
Spruce which sufficed for a lot of items. All of the "temporaries" now
replaced with some really tiny stick on labels made on a Brother label printer.
I
have seen some panels on Experimentals with darn near nothing labelled,
however. Best to check with your DAR before his appointment!
Mark Phillips
Message 3
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| Subject: | Ammeter Shunt connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
<<That chapter is among the next to be updated in R12. The short
answer is install shunts as shown in Z-figures, not chapter 7.
If you believe a battery ammeter is useful to you, use a hall
effect device. Bob . . .>>
8/24/2005
Hello Bob Nuckolls, You seem to be implying above that a shunt arrangement
is the preferred way to measure amperage coming out of an alternator and a
hall effect device is the preferred way to measure amperage flowing into or
out of a battery. Is that correct?
Is it OK to also use a hall effect device to measure current flowing out of
an alternator?
Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of a
battery?
Thank you.
OC
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: risks to battery for in situ |
recharging
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
recharging
At 02:16 PM 8/23/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig P. Steffen"
><craig@craigsteffen.net>
>
> > significant risks. I'm mystified as to the mechanism by which
> > a "dead" battery kills an alternator given the inherent current
> > limiting features of an alternator. Given what I understand about
> > alternators right now, I can't give the admonition any credence.
>
>Would it be possible that a battery be old and discharged enough to
>draw enough current that the alternator _cannot_ maintain a reasonable
>system voltage within its maximum rated output? I don't actually
>know, I'm just wondering.
The battery doesn't have to be "old" . . . a brand new, totally
discharged battery placed across a well-spun alternator will cause
the alternator to go to full output which will be split between
battery recharge current and system running loads for whatever is
turned on.
An alternator in the aviation business is rated for continuous
operation at nameplate rated output under worst case conditions
for cooling. This means that to certify the installation, you
must DEMONSTRATE adequate cooling under hot-day, extended climb
at Vx with alternator loaded to the nameplate rating.
Whether this output current is demanded by a discharged
battery or a kilowatt stereo system is transparent to the
alternator. For a systems manufacturer to place limitations
on alternator expectations suggests a tacit if not overt
admission that the alternator as installed is marginally
cooled.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Switch label requirements |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: alan_products <alan_products@blarg.net>
I just looked up the marking rules in parts 23.1541 - 23.1567, but the switch labeling requirements are pretty vague. If you don't already have it bookmarked, the regs are out on http://www.airweb.faa.gov under 'regulations and policies', 'regulations and guidance library', 'federal aviation regulations'. (sheesh!) According to the regs, I need enough placards to eliminate the need for interior paint! ;-)
-Alan Erickson
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 8/24/05 8:29:25 AM Central Daylight Time,
matthew@n523rv.com writes:
> Are there any requirements for labeling switches and other doo-dads on the
> panel? Do I have to label every switch with an On/Off? I'm a little space
> constrained for labels and just curious if there are any regulations about
> this.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:24 AM 8/24/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
>
> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
><nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> <<That chapter is among the next to be updated in R12. The short
> answer is install shunts as shown in Z-figures, not chapter 7.
> If you believe a battery ammeter is useful to you, use a hall
> effect device. Bob . . .>>
>
>8/24/2005
>
>Hello Bob Nuckolls, You seem to be implying above that a shunt arrangement
>is the preferred way to measure amperage coming out of an alternator and a
>hall effect device is the preferred way to measure amperage flowing into or
>out of a battery. Is that correct?
One can "prefer" any number and type of instrumentation they
wish. Electrical system instrumentation has (since day-one)
been relied upon for making pilot aware of alternator failures.
Such displays are NOT good warning devices. Active notification
of low voltage (flashing light) is the best method of getting
the pilot's attention.
Beyond this simple notification, classic implementation of
ammeters and voltmeters are ONLY useful for system diagnosis
on the ground and do not help you operate the airplane. Given
that most troubleshooting operations will dictate lots of voltage,
resistance and current measurements not displayed on panel instruments.
The logical conclusion is that you'll never get all the data you
need to know from panel mounted displays. If you need to get
out test equipment to do the whole job . . . the it follows that
whatever you plan to display on the panel is a toss-up. You can
choose to display LOTS of data or NO data without materially
influencing the outcome of flight after being notified that
a failure has occurred. Similarly, the number and kind of panel
displays for electrical parameters will not materially affect
efforts required to diagnose and fix the problem on the ground.
>Is it OK to also use a hall effect device to measure current flowing out of
>an alternator?
You bet.
>Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of a
>battery?
Sure . . . cars did it for decades, so did airplanes. However,
the battery-ammeter architecture requires that you bring the
alternator b-lead into the cockpit. It was a design goal early
on to leave it forward of the firewall and tie it into the system
by way of the starter contactor.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Hi Bob,
Question below:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 10:24 AM 8/24/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
>>
>> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls,
>> III"
>><nuckollsr@cox.net>
>>
snip
>
>>Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of a
>> battery?
>
> Sure . . . cars did it for decades, so did airplanes. However,
> the battery-ammeter architecture requires that you bring the
> alternator b-lead into the cockpit. It was a design goal early
> on to leave it forward of the firewall and tie it into the system by
> way of the starter contactor.
>
Wait a minute... I think I missed something. A shunt can be remote
mounted to drive a display that's on the panel, in the cockpit, right?
> Bob . . .
>
>
Just trying to keep up with the stuff I thought I knew... :)
Matt-
VE N34RD, C150 N714BK
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Low System Voltage Troubleshooting |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
As an experiment, try measuring voltage right at the b-lead
terminal. If it's 14.2 to 14.8, then you have excessive voltage
drop in wiring. If it's low there too, then I suspect the regulator
in the alternator is bad. Just for grins, if your alternator has
an "S" lead, try hooking this to the bus through some temporary
wire and see what the bus voltage does with the external sense
option. Does the data sheet for your alternator talk about an
"S" lead and perhaps how to use it?
Bob . . .
No "S" lead on the internal regulated alt. Just an"IGN" terminal.
Understand the IGN lead is not for field input or voltage level sensing.
Would you please explain the function of the IGN lead? Is it to supply
initial power to the electronic devices in the regulator to start the alt ?
My apologies if you have done this in prior postings.
Dale E
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar@gmx.net>
>>>Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of a
>>>battery?
>>>
>>>
>> Sure . . . cars did it for decades, so did airplanes. However,
>> the battery-ammeter architecture requires that you bring the
>> alternator b-lead into the cockpit. It was a design goal early
>> on to leave it forward of the firewall and tie it into the system by
>>way of the starter contactor.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Wait a minute... I think I missed something. A shunt can be remote
>mounted to drive a display that's on the panel, in the cockpit, right?
>
>
>
>correct, but to show ampere in/out it has to be in the feed line between battery
and consumers, the alternator starter contactor connection is not.
>
>
Werner
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Switch label requirements |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matthew Brandes"
<matthew@n523rv.com>
> Are there any requirements for labeling switches and other doo-dads on the
> panel? Do I have to label every switch with an On/Off? I'm a little
> space
> constrained for labels and just curious if there are any regulations about
> this.
Now try to follow my logic here....
Is it a really a switch if it does not have a label? How about if it doesn't
have an actuator? If the switch is not connected to the circuit...is it
still a switch?
I read a story once where a TV repair man diagnosed a TV set where the
owners were putting quarters ( 25-cent coins) into an air opening in the TV.
This shorted a broken foil on a circuit board and made the TV work. When the
circuit board heated up, the quarter would drop into the bottom of the box
and the TV would shut off. Of course the ON-OFF switch did nothing. The
repair man fixed the TV for the accumulated quarters.
Question--should the slot have been labeled?
Come on Matthew! Flying is hard enough without unlabeled switches. Airplanes
crash all the time because someone pulls the cabin heat when they mean to
pull the carb heat. People push on the gas pedal in a car when they mean to
push on the brake. Life is hard, flying is dangerous...don't add to the
confusion. Label the switches.
I mentioned a couple months ago that decalomanias (water slide decals) can
be made with an inkjet printer. Just Google it. You can even buy inks for
your injet that---
a) Glow in the dark
b) Glow brightly in UV
c) Change color with temperature.
d) Are invisible (for those who REALLY have too much time on their hands).
These make great switch labels and even placards and fancy insignias. With a
little care and acrylic overspray, they look silkscreened. A truly
"enabling" technology for the home builder.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
When trouble arises and things look bad,
there is always one individual who perceives
a solution and is willing to take command.
Very often, that individual is crazy.
--Dave Barry
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Low System Voltage Troubleshooting |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 12:58 PM 8/24/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing"
><densing@carolina.rr.com>
>
> As an experiment, try measuring voltage right at the b-lead
> terminal. If it's 14.2 to 14.8, then you have excessive voltage
> drop in wiring. If it's low there too, then I suspect the regulator
> in the alternator is bad. Just for grins, if your alternator has
> an "S" lead, try hooking this to the bus through some temporary
> wire and see what the bus voltage does with the external sense
> option. Does the data sheet for your alternator talk about an
> "S" lead and perhaps how to use it?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>No "S" lead on the internal regulated alt. Just an"IGN" terminal.
>Understand the IGN lead is not for field input or voltage level sensing.
>Would you please explain the function of the IGN lead? Is it to supply
>initial power to the electronic devices in the regulator to start the alt ?
>My apologies if you have done this in prior postings.
For the vast majority of internally regulated alternators the IGN
lead is for rudimentary control only . . . and it may or may not
be able to turn an alternator off once it's been turned on.
If you don't have an "S" lead, then all voltage sense is done at
the b-lead terminal with no other options. Measure voltage of
the operating alternator from b-lead to case ground.
Report your findings here and we'll go to the next step for
isolating the cause of symptoms you've cited above.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:26 AM 8/24/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Question below:
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> > <nuckollsr@cox.net>
> >
> > At 10:24 AM 8/24/2005 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
> >>
> >> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls,
> >> III"
> >><nuckollsr@cox.net>
> >>
>
>snip
>
> >
> >>Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of a
> >> battery?
> >
> > Sure . . . cars did it for decades, so did airplanes. However,
> > the battery-ammeter architecture requires that you bring the
> > alternator b-lead into the cockpit. It was a design goal early
> > on to leave it forward of the firewall and tie it into the system by
> > way of the starter contactor.
> >
>
>Wait a minute... I think I missed something. A shunt can be remote
>mounted to drive a display that's on the panel, in the cockpit, right?
This isn't about the shunt, it's about how the ammeter functions.
For it to be a minus-zero-plus reading ammeter, the instrument (or
it's shunt) needs to reside in the battery feeder -AND- you need to
bring the b-lead to the bus. See figure 7-11 and 7-12 in the 'Connection
but ignore Figure 7-13 as a poor idea which will be eliminated at
the next revision.
Van's ammeter is a battery discharge-o-charge style device and
must be wired per 7-11 as in most older Cessnas and per his
wiring instructions.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
Eric,
My personal pet peeve is that little "row of identical switches" down under
the yoke of most C-172s and similar, where you have to crane your neck down
to find the strobe light switch or the avionics master or the nav lights.
In the automotive world, you don't need a label on your windshield wiper
switch or your horn switch or your window switch, because they have been
designed with application-specific form factors. The landing gear switch
in an airplane looks like a wheel. What if we made the strobe light switch
look different from the landing light switch so you could tell which one
you were toggling "by feel" instead of having to read a label while trying
to fly the plane?
Dave Morris
At 02:55 PM 8/24/2005, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matthew Brandes"
><matthew@n523rv.com>
>
> > Are there any requirements for labeling switches and other doo-dads on the
> > panel? Do I have to label every switch with an On/Off? I'm a little
> > space
> > constrained for labels and just curious if there are any regulations about
> > this.
>
>Now try to follow my logic here....
>
>Is it a really a switch if it does not have a label? How about if it doesn't
>have an actuator? If the switch is not connected to the circuit...is it
>still a switch?
>
>I read a story once where a TV repair man diagnosed a TV set where the
>owners were putting quarters ( 25-cent coins) into an air opening in the TV.
>This shorted a broken foil on a circuit board and made the TV work. When the
>circuit board heated up, the quarter would drop into the bottom of the box
>and the TV would shut off. Of course the ON-OFF switch did nothing. The
>repair man fixed the TV for the accumulated quarters.
>
>Question--should the slot have been labeled?
>
>Come on Matthew! Flying is hard enough without unlabeled switches. Airplanes
>crash all the time because someone pulls the cabin heat when they mean to
>pull the carb heat. People push on the gas pedal in a car when they mean to
>push on the brake. Life is hard, flying is dangerous...don't add to the
>confusion. Label the switches.
>
>I mentioned a couple months ago that decalomanias (water slide decals) can
>be made with an inkjet printer. Just Google it. You can even buy inks for
>your injet that---
>
>a) Glow in the dark
>b) Glow brightly in UV
>c) Change color with temperature.
>d) Are invisible (for those who REALLY have too much time on their hands).
>
>These make great switch labels and even placards and fancy insignias. With a
>little care and acrylic overspray, they look silkscreened. A truly
>"enabling" technology for the home builder.
>
>Regards,
>Eric M. Jones
>www.PerihelionDesign.com
>113 Brentwood Drive
>Southbridge MA 01550-2705
>(508) 764-2072
>
>When trouble arises and things look bad,
>there is always one individual who perceives
>a solution and is willing to take command.
>Very often, that individual is crazy.
> --Dave Barry
>
>
Message 14
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
There's lots of room for improvement. Tactile discrimination is a good thing but
even in the automotive world it doesn't cover everything - consider your radio
and heater-A/C controls. Positional differentiation is is my choice. With some
thought you can logically group the switches and provide separation between
the groups so you can find the group by feel. I'm putting the "important" switches
in easy to find positions, e.g. e-bus, landing lights at edges of groups,
flaps and boost separate and by the throttle and mixture. The concept is not
mine and not new - I think it came from Bob's book but it even appears in autos,
e.g. power window & door lock groupings. That's the beauty of OBAM, you can
follow whatever scheme suits your needs.
Greg Young
________________________________
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
Eric,
My personal pet peeve is that little "row of identical switches" down under
the yoke of most C-172s and similar, where you have to crane your neck down
to find the strobe light switch or the avionics master or the nav lights.
In the automotive world, you don't need a label on your windshield wiper
switch or your horn switch or your window switch, because they have been
designed with application-specific form factors. The landing gear switch
in an airplane looks like a wheel. What if we made the strobe light switch
look different from the landing light switch so you could tell which one
you were toggling "by feel" instead of having to read a label while trying
to fly the plane?
Dave Morris
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Oh, okay.. It seems like the implied goal is to not run the starting
currents through the ammeter shunt because it will tend to slap an analog
meter pretty hard when the starter is cycled. Didn't we discuss this a
few years ago, and decide that it probably woudn't actually hurt the meter
to bang the needle against the stop? If that's not so good, it seems like
we could put in a little circuit which when enabled by the starter circuit
would drop the voltage at being fed from the shunt to reduce abuse to the
meter. In either case, the shunt can be in the main feed from the
battery.
The hall effect idea is better. Actually, a flashing light would be
better still... Well... Wait another minute.. I have a thought. You say
that diagnosing electrical problems should be reserved for after you are
on the ground. I can't argue with that. However, I posit that on a new
OBAM airplane, it may be rather practical to build in a little extra
instrumentation (and leave it aboard) than would be installed in a
design-debugged production airplane. What say you?
Regards,
Matt-
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 10:26 AM 8/24/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather"
>> <mprather@spro.net>
>>
>>Hi Bob,
>>
>>Question below:
>>
>> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>> >
>> > At 10:24 AM 8/24/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>> >
>> >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
>> >>
>> >> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L.
>> Nuckolls,
>> >> III"
>> >><nuckollsr@cox.net>
>> >>
>>
>>snip
>>
>> >
>> >>Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of
>> a
>> >> battery?
>> >
>> > Sure . . . cars did it for decades, so did airplanes. However,
>> the battery-ammeter architecture requires that you bring the
>> alternator b-lead into the cockpit. It was a design goal early on
>> to leave it forward of the firewall and tie it into the system by
>> > way of the starter contactor.
>> >
>>
>>Wait a minute... I think I missed something. A shunt can be remote
>> mounted to drive a display that's on the panel, in the cockpit, right?
>
> This isn't about the shunt, it's about how the ammeter functions. For
> it to be a minus-zero-plus reading ammeter, the instrument (or it's
> shunt) needs to reside in the battery feeder -AND- you need to bring
> the b-lead to the bus. See figure 7-11 and 7-12 in the 'Connection
> but ignore Figure 7-13 as a poor idea which will be eliminated at the
> next revision.
>
> Van's ammeter is a battery discharge-o-charge style device and
> must be wired per 7-11 as in most older Cessnas and per his
> wiring instructions.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Switch label requirements |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
On 24 Aug 2005, at 11:42, alan_products wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: alan_products
> <alan_products@blarg.net>
>
> I just looked up the marking rules in parts 23.1541 - 23.1567, but
> the switch labeling requirements are pretty vague. If you don't
> already have it bookmarked, the regs are out on http://
> www.airweb.faa.gov under 'regulations and policies', 'regulations
> and guidance library', 'federal aviation regulations'. (sheesh!)
> According to the regs, I need enough placards to eliminate the need
> for interior paint! ;-)
>
Have a look at FAR 23.1 - Applicability.
(a) This part prescribes airworthiness standards for the issue of
type certificates, and changes to those certificates, for airplanes
in the normal, utility, acrobatic, and commuter categories.
FAR 23.1541 23.1567 do not apply to your RV, unless they are
specifically called up by some other requirement. However, I do
agree that any switch that may be needed in flight or ground
operations, or any switch whose use in the wrong circumstances could
cause a hazard, should be labelled. It is only common sense.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Switch label requirements |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
I've been through all this with my ABDAR and the Tech counselors at OSH. In
essence, if it's labeled in the certified world, the FAA want it labeled on
our panels. I asked for supporting FAR's to sustain that position and was
told, 'There are none'. That's the way it's always been and that's what all
the DAR's will expect.
The point of contention that brought this to me was my DAR'S insistence that
I mark my TPM controls with labels. Long discussion with lots of FAR books.
Only found one reference to TPM controls, that being shape, size and color.
My DAR backed down and said OK.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
Horton
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch label requirements
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
On 24 Aug 2005, at 11:42, alan_products wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: alan_products
> <alan_products@blarg.net>
>
> I just looked up the marking rules in parts 23.1541 - 23.1567, but
> the switch labeling requirements are pretty vague. If you don't
> already have it bookmarked, the regs are out on http://
> www.airweb.faa.gov under 'regulations and policies', 'regulations
> and guidance library', 'federal aviation regulations'. (sheesh!)
> According to the regs, I need enough placards to eliminate the need
> for interior paint! ;-)
>
Have a look at FAR 23.1 - Applicability.
(a) This part prescribes airworthiness standards for the issue of
type certificates, and changes to those certificates, for airplanes
in the normal, utility, acrobatic, and commuter categories.
FAR 23.1541 23.1567 do not apply to your RV, unless they are
specifically called up by some other requirement. However, I do
agree that any switch that may be needed in flight or ground
operations, or any switch whose use in the wrong circumstances could
cause a hazard, should be labelled. It is only common sense.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Switch label requirements |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
Here's the extreme on labeling the throttle. Even the friction lock is
labeled:
http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Dragonfly%20Controls/F-100%20Throttle%20With%207lbs%20Junk%20Removed.jpg
Off an F-100 and onto a Dragonfly :)
Dave Morris
At 06:03 PM 8/24/2005, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
>I've been through all this with my ABDAR and the Tech counselors at OSH. In
>essence, if it's labeled in the certified world, the FAA want it labeled on
>our panels. I asked for supporting FAR's to sustain that position and was
>told, 'There are none'. That's the way it's always been and that's what all
>the DAR's will expect.
>
>The point of contention that brought this to me was my DAR'S insistence that
>I mark my TPM controls with labels. Long discussion with lots of FAR books.
>Only found one reference to TPM controls, that being shape, size and color.
>My DAR backed down and said OK.
>
>Bruce
>www.glasair.org
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
>Horton
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch label requirements
>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>
>On 24 Aug 2005, at 11:42, alan_products wrote:
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: alan_products
> > <alan_products@blarg.net>
> >
> > I just looked up the marking rules in parts 23.1541 - 23.1567, but
> > the switch labeling requirements are pretty vague. If you don't
> > already have it bookmarked, the regs are out on http://
> > www.airweb.faa.gov under 'regulations and policies', 'regulations
> > and guidance library', 'federal aviation regulations'. (sheesh!)
> > According to the regs, I need enough placards to eliminate the need
> > for interior paint! ;-)
> >
>
>Have a look at FAR 23.1 - Applicability.
>(a) This part prescribes airworthiness standards for the issue of
>type certificates, and changes to those certificates, for airplanes
>in the normal, utility, acrobatic, and commuter categories.
>
>FAR 23.1541 23.1567 do not apply to your RV, unless they are
>specifically called up by some other requirement. However, I do
>agree that any switch that may be needed in flight or ground
>operations, or any switch whose use in the wrong circumstances could
>cause a hazard, should be labelled. It is only common sense.
>
>Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
>Ottawa, Canada
>http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | re: Switch label requirements |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
>There's lots of room for improvement. Tactile discrimination is a good
>thing but
>even in the automotive world it doesn't cover everything - consider your
>radio
>and heater-A/C controls. Positional differentiation is is my choice. With
>some
>thought you can logically group the switches and provide separation between
>the groups so you can find the group by feel. I'm putting the "important"
>switches
>in easy to find positions, e.g. e-bus, landing lights at edges of groups,
>flaps and boost separate and by the throttle and mixture. The concept is
>not
>mine and not new - I think it came from Bob's book but it even appears in
>autos,
>e.g. power window & door lock groupings. That's the beauty of OBAM, you can
>follow whatever scheme suits your needs.Greg Young
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\""
BigD@DaveMorris.com
>My personal pet peeve is that little "row of identical switches" down under
>the yoke of most C-172s and similar, where you have to crane your neck down
>to find the strobe light switch or the avionics master or the nav lights.
>In the automotive world, you don't need a label on your windshield wiper
>switch or your horn switch or your window switch, because they have been
>designed with application-specific form factors. The landing gear switch
>in an airplane looks like a wheel. What if we made the strobe light switch
>look different from the landing light switch so you could tell which one
>you were toggling "by feel" instead of having to read a label while trying
>to fly the plane? Dave Morris
Dave and Greg,
I am working on a technical paper regarding design of instrument panels.
Actually, I've been working on it all my life. There is an infinitude of
horrid design out there. There are preposterous design sins which people
just follow because they think that "the way it has been done" is the right
way. The GOOD news is that commercial jets really do have the panel design
thing done very well. You don't have to make your panel look like one in an
A340 Airbus, but you should take from their design some important lessons.
Like---
1) Symmetry is the last resort of the totally untalented.
2) Putting switches or lights in long rows is brain-dead design.
3) Study the mind-boggling functional MOMO instrument panel for a Ferrari
grand prix racecar.
4) Know that bad design is everywhere and it kills people.
5) Dissuade yourself from thinking YOU are at fault when you can't figure
out which way the credit card goes into the swipe slot. Bad design is
everywhere. There were EIGHT ways to put a 5 1/4 inch diskette into A: drive
and only one of them worked. Remember?
Read Ricardo A. Price, in Kitplanes Dec95 and Jan96 and Feb96. I pore over
this stuff. I even have "Confusion in the Cockpit" from 1948 on the subject.
But every time I want to make any comment on the subject I review Price's
articles and am re-impressed. I highly recommend getting the back issues
from Kitplanes (on line) if you have an interest in the subject. It's a real
keeper. ps--Ricardo, can I get your email address?
http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7273-1.phtml
http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7272-1.phtml
http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7271-1.phtml
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
---Clint Eastwood
Message 20
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| Subject: | Ground-mode transponders |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
ATC agents are there to prevent dots from coming together. They do it in
many ingenious and cunning ways. They do not provide the service for which
they are hired by inventing new and unexpected use of other devices,
However, there is a growing fear in the European sphere of influence
to believe that they will use the transponder to record and tax aircraft on
the time they inhabit 'national' airspace. I believe that the original use
of the transponder should be restricted to the moral standard of keeping the
dots apart - and no other.
All the governments in the world cannot force a an earthwide
group to conform to immoral requirements. ATC is there to achieve separation
standards - they are not professors, cops or critics - and all the funny
jokes about stupid pilots (aviators, fliers) won't change the facts. My
machine is designed to provide separation limits in the air and cannot
satisfy every whim.
Ferg Kyle
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